Tonight, the way these pictures look to me is that the first five pictures I like, pictures of sitting into a steady, unmoving sitting position. as is spoken up in the Fukon Zazen. The first part gives instructions about how to... into stillness and silence. And the fifth picture is one where we've done enough settling We really are coming into the, in a way, the final and perhaps most difficult phase of settling down, where the relationship between has become very dramatic, but also very subtle.

[01:28]

And so, again, many of us feel this crisis is very strong now. In a way, the picture is like including all that went before, the full crisis. And then the sixth picture, is one where it seems a settling has occurred. The resistance in the relationship with the other, how it is imagined, talked about, felt, perceived, whatever it is, there doesn't seem to be any struggle anymore.

[02:36]

Training has brought the relationship, not just the hurt, but brought the relationship to a point where there's wholeheartedness. joyful ease in the relationship. It's hard to... If you imagine the other as like, I don't know, what reality, usually we wouldn't think that reality would have any resistance to us. And you know, it doesn't. And you know, we don't have any resistance to reality either. That's reality. But reality has no resistance to not-reality. So not-reality includes us resisting reality, which we cannot do.

[03:47]

That's not true. And reality is, in a way, is our relationship with reality So if we're resisting reality, kind of like resist too. So the thing where there's no resistance, where everything's really being completely itself, includes, if you excuse the expression, evil. You know, of resisting our life, of not including everything that we include, and resisting that we're included in everything. So in the fifth phase, at least for part of the fifth phase, we are still resisting. And because we're still resisting, it seems like what we're resisting might be resisting us too.

[04:52]

It's not resisting us, but it should resist us, and we're trying to get it to resist us more than it is. So it's resisting, it's being overly friendly, or something. Anyway, it's a struggle still. By the end of the fifth phase, in a way, there's no more struggle, there's no more resistance. Now we're in a situation of going home. A joyful return home to our actual true relationship with everything. that's completely included in us as us. And our home is also a place where we do not abide.

[05:56]

And through the whole process we have not been abiding, but we have been resisting not abiding. And one of the main ways we resist not abiding is Trying to abide in whatever is available. Now we're home. By not resisting the other, we're not resisting being at home where we did not abide. Our home is where we did not abide. Home is not abiding, and it's not abiding in this way and in these ways. That's the sixth picture. And then the seventh picture is actually being at home. So in terms of zazen,

[07:05]

instruction, like in the Pūkāndras, I just propose you might think of these auxiliary pictures as one through five, all the settling process, and then... Now, you have no resistance to the settling. No. In six you have no resistance to settling, and in seven you actually are settled. And in the settling you're ready for the instruction in response to a question to you. A question has been put to you. Now that you're home, Now that you've come home, and the final thing is to return home, you're more and more in balance, you're not struggling to get home, but you are going home.

[08:09]

And now you're home, without abiding there, and in this non-abiding home, a question is put to you, what kind of thinking is this? And you say, the thinking is not thinking. The thinking, not thinking. So that's... I would say maybe, you know, that's sixth and seventh. And then another question is put, which is, how?

[09:15]

How? How about this thinking, which is not abiding in thinking? How about that? And then the answer is, it's beyond thinking. And so that's maybe . Yeah. And then that's not the end of the story. So maybe somebody could read the version of the picture.

[10:21]

Do you have it, Jack? Yeah. Can you stand up and read it, please? Preface two. Two. Two. No, just the verse. Not for a moment, put down whip or brain. Lest the ox wander back to dust and desire. Pull again till it's tame and gentle. Of itself, it will follow without bridle or chain. Now would you read this? Number six. Writing visually you head for home, trilling on a Novaz flute you leave in an evening mist. In each beat and verse, your boundless feeling to a close companion.

[11:36]

What need to move your lips? And number seven. Astride your ox, you've reached the hills of home. With ox put away, you are at ease. The sun's risen three poles high, yet still you're dreaming. Your whip and line hang idle under the thatched eaves. Number eight. Whip and line, and you and the ox, all gone to emptiness. Into a blue sky, words too vast.

[12:42]

Can a snowflake survive the fire of a flame pit? Attain this, truly be one with the masters of the past. And nine. You've returned to the origin, went back to the source. Such wasted effort. How much better to just be blind and deaf? Inside your hut, you don't see outside your hut. Let the streams just flow on, the flowers just bloom red. Okay, thank you. So another translation is, too many steps have been taken to get to this stage.

[13:45]

Which again, back to the beginning, you don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to go anywhere when you're in the first picture to get to the eighth picture or the ninth picture. But still, we have taken a bunch of steps. And we accepted the steps we were taking. When we were taking steps, even though we didn't need to take any, we took them at the level of stepping that we were stepping, and accepted, and therefore we moved forward. Even though we didn't need to move forward, we did. Now, in a way, we've completed the journey We've gone beyond and we'll come back.

[14:58]

We've gone beyond the whip and the rope and the self and the other. And we don't stay in going beyond. Now we're back with Streams flowing and something blossoming. A new start of the world. And then comes the tense picture. Will you read that, Jack? With bare chest and feet, you come to the market. Under dirt and ash, your face breaks into a lie.

[16:09]

With no display of magic powers, you make withered trees burst into flower. In a way, through this whole course, we have been contemplating action. In the eighth picture, there may be action, but it's ungraspable.

[17:28]

clearly ungraspable, the self and the other, the rope and the whip, everything is empty and ungraspable. And this is like a consequence of the non-abiding in the whole process. And then it doesn't say that the self and the other reappear. It just says that there's flowing and blooming. It doesn't mention that somebody's there with this activity.

[18:37]

And then the final picture is basically you're back in the same situation you were at the beginning, which I'm not saying that the marketplace that you're in, or the earth that you're walking on, or the chest that you have below you, I'm not saying that that's not a wilderness. It's just that it's no longer... It's no longer what's called exhausting. It's no longer discouraging. It's no longer... It's the opportunity to bring new life to the dead. And we might want to do that wherever we are in the process of our life.

[19:47]

But this story is saying that in order to bring the full function of our ordinary healing and life-giving, it may be necessary for us to go through this process. And that once we have, our human action has a new function that we've always wanted it to have. But we couldn't accept it. We couldn't accept that what we were doing was bringing new life to the world, to the new world. It's always been going on. Now we... can enjoy it. So, we have one more class after this one, so we can enjoy whatever we want in this cycle.

[20:59]

We can go back to the beginning, we can go to the middle, we can talk about resistance, and we can also join the miraculous causation of the universe, which we of course always have been doing. But sometimes resisting it, you know, complaining, it's hard not to. And Someone sent me a message from a kind person, a person I think of as kind, who said something like, America's dead. Certainly, the America we had yesterday is not here today.

[22:02]

And the America we had two weeks ago is not here today. But whatever we've got, we have an opportunity, we have a responsibility. And our responsibility is to encounter the other in this whatever world we're in. And this Oxford index uses this story of our encounter with the other face-to-face, which we're always doing, but which we don't always have responsibility for. But it's in accepting our responsibility for this encounter and exercising that encounter through conversation that we will

[23:15]

Resurrect the true life. And it's our responsibility. This is our responsibility. I'm suggesting to you. Yes? So, in that fifth or sixth stage beyond thinking? The fifth phase, we're thinking. In the fifth picture, we're thinking and we're struggling with our thinking. Is it sixth that we're going to beyond?

[24:19]

The sixth, we're no longer struggling anymore. We're going home. In the seventh, we arrive at home. I'm suggesting that in the sixth, we're still in our... In the fifth, we have not yet arrived at God's home. But in the fifth, we're still struggling. At the end of the fifth, we're not struggling with our home. We're not saying, this is not my home. At the end of the fifth. So now, we're like going thoroughly home in the sixth. We're riding... In the seventh, we are actually fully home. That's what I'm suggesting. That's also what the thing's called. Riding home, and then seven, you've arrived home. You arrive home by extinguishing thinking, by reflection.

[25:28]

Is that... What about extinguishing thinking? Well, mind like a wall. Yeah. Reflection on your own thought. Is it that process that brings you home eventually? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, is beyond thinking... After this point of reflection. It's not exactly after, it's the way of being with the reflection that realizes that reflection is not reflection. It's the way of living with reflection where reflection pivots with not-reflection. Yeah.

[26:46]

In stillness there is wholehearted reflection which is not reflection. And that wholehearted reflection which is not reflection is called beyond reflection. Or beyond thinking. beyond whatever is pivoting, because the pivoting lets us transcend the pivot. But we have to be totally there, and the first several phases are talking about various levels of resistance to being totally present with our karma. which in one definition of karma is thinking. The Buddha's definition of karma was thinking, which includes feeling and perception and all emotions.

[27:55]

It's a more, not general, but holistic word. Thinking is a more holistic term for all that's going on in a moment. But the same thing that applies to thinking applies to the different parts that compose the thinking. Like feeling, or breathing, or posture. Yes? Is there a different pivot in each of the pictures? Is there a different pivot? In each of the pictures. No. The pivot's always the same. The thing that's pivoting is different. The pivot of you today is the same pivot as you yesterday.

[29:00]

But you yesterday's Maybe I should say the pivoting is always the same, but the pivot is changing. Like you yesterday was the pivot of you yesterday. You today is the pivot of you. So the pivoting is always the same. That's the Buddha's activity. So the Buddha is just like each of us right now, but totally each of us right now. So our Buddha is each of us totally exerted. And each of us is changing all the time, but the total exertion is the same, and so is the transcendence. And the transcendence is the same.

[30:04]

And the transcendence also can be totally exerted, so it's another pivot. So it gets transcended, too. Everything keeps moving forward. There's no abiding in each stage, and there's no staying in each stage. Once the non-abiding has been realized by not resisting the stage, then there's again transcendence. Yes, Paul. Yeah. So I've been wondering about for a while now with the 10 pictures in comparison with Deng Xiao's Five Ranks. So it's my understanding that Five Ranks are taught in this school as stages in Zen practice. Is what you just said taught?

[31:15]

I'm sorry? You said your understanding is that the five ranks aren't taught as stages in practice. Well, this is from a class last year where the five ranks were brought up and it was discussed. I don't remember exactly which class, but the five ranks specifically aren't taught in the school for reasons regarding... it implies that there are these clear-cut stages of development that are to, as a measure of... So what I'm saying is what you just said, Todd? Is what I just said, Todd? Well, it's a good question, but I need a thought. So, if what I'm saying is taught, well, from a certain... Did somebody teach you that? How to speak? No. Did somebody teach you how to speak? Well... I'm not going to answer this question.

[32:22]

I'm going to ask this couple of ways. I agree with Snarky about it. Did someone teach you how to be snarky? So, the final question, which is, these are, the pan-oxidating pictures are clearly stages, or they're taught as stages in Zen practice. So are the five ranks, but the five ranks aren't taught here as mindfulness practices. taught here, how would you know that they aren't stages? Who told you they're stages? Because it's... Who told you they're stages? I want to find out. Who told you that? Dongshan. Dongshan told you they weren't stages? I didn't. Show me. Maybe later you can show me. I never heard Dongshan say these aren't stages. Well, it's... I mean, that's the way it's written, that these are stages that...

[33:24]

Yeah, but I never heard of that. Where did you hear about that? I never heard Dongshan say, these five ranks are stages. No, technically I haven't heard Dongshan himself tell it. So I'm wondering who told you that... So this is the part I'm going to drop my question, because I feel like it's being redirected. But anyway, you said that the five ranks are stages, and a lot of people wouldn't agree with that. Right. And they don't have to do that. And I was just wondering, who told you there are stages? And you said Dung Shan, and I said, no, he didn't. I never heard Dung Shan say that. No, no, technically he did. But the writing says that... What writings? I'm going to grab it. There is a part in the book of Serenity about the five ranks. There is an introduction to the book? Yes, didn't you write that introduction?

[34:28]

Yeah, but I'm just saying, I don't know who is saying that the five ranks are stages, because a lot of people say they're not stages. Are they? I don't know, that would be quite an elaborate discussion. But anyway, there are these five ranks that people talk about. And Palmer heard that there were stages, and I wonder who told him that. And he told me Dungsan did, but I don't think Jungtan did. I don't remember that, or me that. So these are taught as stages. And in a number of Buddhist scriptures, there are bodhisattva stages taught. There's a big book called Bodhisattva Sutra by Asanga. And the Avatamsaka Sutra has a sutra called the Ten Stages.

[35:29]

And these are often referred to as stages. But the five ranks, a lot of people would say, are not about stages. What I've got here, The Five Ranks, is a poem consisting of five stanzas describing the stages of realization and practice of Zen Buddhism. Yeah, so who said that? Some scholar. Right? You could find out. What I don't understand is, what is the issue with the word stages? There seems to be a resistance towards that description. What's the resistance to this? I'm asking if it's not... I don't see any resistance to the word stages.

[36:36]

Are you resisting the word stages? Well, I'm trying to comprehend what... stages means in the five ranks, or what it doesn't mean? The five ranks are another topic, and we're not really talking about the five ranks here, but I'm just telling you that a lot of people feel the five ranks are stages, and some other people think they are stages. Here, however, There's more agreement that these are stages. This is a presentation of stages. Stages, which are actually... Each picture in the stages includes all the other stages, but they're still considered and presented in this order. The five ranks are a different way of looking at... And the five ranks would be another topic.

[37:49]

And if I start talking about the five ranks, I think that people would like to know what they are. And many people don't, so I feel like it's hard to discuss it here. So we have to postpone the discussion of five ranks until later. But Palmer just read a statement by somebody, some scholar wrote that there are stages in Zen practice, but other scholars and practitioners say there are not stages. And Dogen Zenji said that the person who supposedly made up these stages, Dongshan, Doga Zenji said, Dongshan did not use these stages to teach Buddha Dharma, even though he's the one who people credit with the origin of five ranks. Yes.

[38:53]

I'm wondering about the stages here in the obscuring pictures. And I'm thinking that it's always safe to get to stage five and then regress and have to go back or end up going back even to the beginning or back to our earlier stage. Is that something that... Can we regress? Yeah. It looks like it. For example, in the beginning, there's a kind of yearning and a searching. There's a sense of being lost and discouraged and yet looking for something, but having not much idea of what it is we're looking for. Then there's a sense of maybe seeing something that one could follow and study, interact with.

[39:59]

And then there's even getting a clearer sense of something that you could interact with. But I think that could also get, in the changeable world we're living in, that could turn around and we could find ourselves back in the first stage again. Yes. So stage eight seems to be a big turning point in this, as it seems to me that like this, what is it? Forget both self and ox is that came before it. It doesn't seem like the kind of realization of self could have like self has forgotten self. Like it seems so far beyond, um, I guess one through seven seem to be stages that I and I could be looking for the ox, I'm finding its tracks, I'm running it home.

[41:03]

And then something turns in eight, in nine. And so I guess the question is around, are those stages that one could realize self-consciously? And is that important? Does realization from the perspective of a practitioner have to do with Well, one possibility is that stage eight could be addressing when Sariputra, I mean, when Avalokiteshvara, in perfect wisdom, Avalokiteshvara sees that all five skandhas are empty. It could be corresponding to that realization of Avalokiteshvara in the eighth pic... that it is... Avalokiteshvara sees five skandhas empty.

[42:07]

Avalokiteshvara sees that the five skandhas of Avalokiteshvara are empty of own being. And this seeing relieves all... So you could say that number eight is like that stage. So we say Avalokiteshvara saw, but we also say Avalokiteshvara saw that Avalokiteshvara was empty of Avalokiteshvara in that sutra. And that could correspond to number eight, possibly. But Avalokiteshvara in that realization, starts talking to Shariputra. And he says, form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

[43:09]

So in a way that's like the ninth picture. Now life is coming back to what was empty. life and all its problems was emptied and relieved of suffering. All life's problems was realized as emptiness and that relieved all life's problems and then became life's problems again. Which again is the ninth picture where now there's some blossoming branches in the circle. So you could see it that way. Yes. It's bringing to mind that image that you have in your book, The Third Terminal Wheel, of the clearing.

[44:13]

There's a clearing, and then there's all this... I think it's your description of... And there's this clearing, it's like this empty space, and all around this clearing is this dark forest, and you have no idea how big it is or what it contains. And then eight and nine pictures. And then something appears in your clearing. It reminds me of that, yeah. However... The way I used it in the book was, the clearing is where the self is. The clearing is where I am. And the vast form is all that I include, but which I can't see. Now, in the In the eighth picture, we see that in the clearing that self is empty of that self.

[45:22]

Yes? Related to the question about the stages, I was wondering about... So once you're beyond thinking, beyond pivoting, I guess I'm wondering what... Think of... Ten kind of needing nine in a different way, in a relationship that's different than a pivot. But that they... that 10 relies on sort of 9. Yeah. In some kind of alternating current kind of way.

[46:34]

It could be very slow. Yeah, cycle with 9. It sounds great. Yeah. The difference here is that although ten cycles, it doesn't go backwards. It goes forward. So, Stephen's question, is there retrogression? It seems like there's retrogression. Up to a certain point, there's regression. And after, particularly after eight, back to number one, you have to go eight, nine, ten, one. You can't go... You can't go eight, seven, six, eight, nine, ten, one.

[47:45]

Whereas in five, you can go five, four, three, two, one. But now that I'm saying that, it sounds a little rigid. And it can definitely go into one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. And nine can go nine, ten, one, two, three. And eight can go nine, ten. Eight is emptiness. Feelings are emptiness. Self is emptiness. And therefore all suffering is relieved. But also eight is empty. Now we've realized emptiness in eight. Emptiness is formed. Emptiness in form is like nine. And then since emptiness in form is nine, now the full releasing that is ten, which says all of them.

[48:54]

Terrible news. There's something you can say. which will save the situation. You could say it to Katie, and she could yell it for you. He got lost in what the ox is, actually. Pardon? He got lost in what the ox is, actually. Oh, he actually got lost in what the ox is. Well, the ox is other. The ox is the other. because often the artist is described as in their nature, or as seeing the original face.

[50:11]

That is different in your description. So then the seeing emptiness would be... I think that's fine. Seeing the emptiness of the five skandhas... Seeing emptiness could be... Seeing the original face could be seen as number eight. But not as number three or four, do you think? There's faces in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. There's faces. Okay? Those faces in those pictures are faces that came after you were born. These are faces that came after the self was born. Each one of those faces, if you were able to completely exert that face, the door to the face before you were born, and there would be the face before you were born.

[51:23]

So, my face before I'm born is not just nothing, It's the emptiness of my face. And this face, before I was born, from that face, I can have a new face. Kimo? That's all you can say right now? Yeah. So, I don't know. So many hands. Okay, Miu Miu. So, if one progresses from ten to one, is there a memory? It's not really a progression. In ten, ten definitely already has one.

[52:32]

Ten is like, there you are, in one, with all the... And it's just like, they're just totally nothing but opportunities now. So ten is one with the understanding of the whole process. You don't have to... You don't have to move... There's no movement necessary for ten to be one. Is there a movement necessary to go from five to one? It seems like, which we call regression. So there's two ways to go from five to one. Well, basically two ways to go. One's called forward, the other one's called backwards. So the forward way is the way we're talking about. It's the happy way. It's like, okay, I'm in five, and now I'm not resisting it anymore.

[53:38]

So now it's like joyful writing. And now I got home, and I don't even abide home. So, wow. Emptiness. And emptiness, I don't even abide in that. It's all form. And form, so like, whatever the form, now I'm in ten. That's the form. Now what about the other way, where you go from five backwards? It's like getting worse and worse, more and more resistance, more and more complaining, more and more thinking you don't want to be here, and you can be someplace else. However, is it possible that if you go this backward way, which is so unhappy, that you'll go from one to ten? Yes. Yes. Yes. If you could totally be in the worst situation possible, you would be in the best situation possible. And the best situation possible is ten, which is one.

[54:42]

But ten usually depends on these great realizations. where you gave up resisting your life, realized it was empty, became free, and then gave that up, and went back into the world where everybody's like... So, back to Miao Yu. So, in our ordinations, we're asked the question, and even after attaining Buddhahood, will we continue to practice the Way? So getting 10, we have to carry on the practice in the way. It's not like we become on Nessie and don't have to practice anymore. We have to carry on the practice. Yeah. In that sense, there's not really a difference between any of them.

[55:47]

We have to carry on practising. There's not really a difference in any of them, no. Not really. Whatever direction we move, we still have to be practising. Okay. Marjorie? I'm spending most of my time in one tonight, but I woke up a little bit and you say, you thought it was a bit rigid to say, well, you couldn't go from eight straight to one. I agree with you, it was a little bit rigid to say you can't go from eight straight to one. I didn't, you can't go from eight straight to one, it's just that I was saying that you wouldn't go, I was saying you would go from eight straight to one, you wouldn't go from eight back through Actually, I would go further and suggest that we probably agree at some point that you could do that. That's what I saw as being a little rigid, not being able to go in any direction.

[56:57]

I'm just expressing agreement with you. Let's see, and next was... I think Jonas was next, unless you've changed, you're not there anymore. No, I'll say some things. And I say that because I'm not sure I'll say some things, and then we'll see what happens. I noticed up until picture 10, so in the first nine pictures, Though we're with the ox, we're alone. I didn't follow this. Say it again. We're alone with the ox, meaning there's not other people there. In the poem, so we can say the ox is the other reality, but in the poem we're with the ox. And so there's a kind of solitary work that's happening. Yeah. a way of being in solitude, maybe, something like that.

[58:03]

And then, in ten, we enter the marketplace, and now we're with people. That's what it looks like to you. Well, that's what the poem says. Just the words, quite plainly. But the ox is, when you're doing solitary practice, you're practicing with everybody. The ox is everybody. Yes. And that's the part of my question. So the ox is everybody, and then now we enter the marketplace in ten. And so it seems to me that maybe we're with, I guess it's quite clear, we're with everybody in a different kind of way in ten. Yeah, but we're with everybody in a different way in ten. But we've been with everybody all the way through. And the we or the I is released from itself in the process.

[59:11]

And so, one thought that came is that when that happens, the trees burst into flower. And they do that out of conversation with flowers. When what happens? The trees burst into flower. We're released from ourselves, as you said. When we're released from ourselves, you get number eight, and you get number nine, and you get number ten, and you get number one. When you're released from yourself, you get all the pictures, and when you're not released from yourself, you only get some of the pictures. The withered trees, they were previously withered because... I'm imagining I walked into the marketplace, the trees are withered earlier because my vision is impoverished.

[60:19]

included by the hindrances or by loss or by something. So, I don't see the trees. And then in ten, in dialogue with you, I'm seeing them differently. They burst into flower, they're not occluded anymore. The vision is no longer impoverished. Our vision. Our vision is no longer impoverished in ten, nine, and eight. And it's pretty unimpoverished in six. In seven, it's pretty unimpoverished. Dina? I once heard a story about a monk who and then decided to get attached to everything

[61:24]

Is that what ten kind of is like? No. Ten would be more like the monk woke up and let go of her awakening and then saw trees of attachment blossoming. He saw dead trees blossoming into trees of attachment. and was not at all attached to those trees of attachment. Marketplace where they had an unlimited variety of relationships with trees of attachment. But it's not that you reattach. Right. I think what I... There was never any attachment, actually. I think what I took from that story was that for life you might as well just experience it, because it's not really... If you're alive, you might as well what?

[62:29]

Might as well... This is what I heard from the story of the commentary, was that since he woke up, I don't really want to not be attached to anything, because I'm already not attached, so therefore I can be attached, because I'm not really attached. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Elizabeth? Yeah, I just, we've been studying about, well, not only so, and I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about this is not step ladders then. Yeah. So I was just kind of, that kept popping up for me as we talked about stages. And I mean, I feel conventional reality, things are in stages. So my mind just isn't kind of, I just want to hear you say some things about how to not step ladders in and be agnostic. Well, so this, in some sense, this chorus is about how to go through a step ladder, a ladder with ten steps.

[63:48]

How do you go through that without abiding in any of the stages? So it's the not abiding that... It's about not abiding. It's about not abiding. It's not... ...leaders around Zen Center. It is true that we have more brooms than step-ladders. We do have several step-ladders around here. However, our practice is not to abide in step-ladders or brooms. ...challenging us to bring up steps. Now, another meaning of stepladder Zen is the stepladder Zen is the dhyana stages, because the word dhyana is the source of the word Zen. So another understanding of Zen means not dhyana practice, which is stepladder dhyana, stepladder zen, literally.

[64:49]

So you could also say we're not doing that. However, I wouldn't want us to abide in not doing dhyana practices which have stages. The Buddha did dhyana practice and went through the stages. However, the Buddha realized non-abiding in the dhyana practices, and he went through the stages when he died. He went back down. He went through the stages of teaching, but he wasn't abiding in them. And nobody ever really does. So it's another meaning of not step out of Zen. And then there's another one where, I think, but maybe it was Dongshan said to Yunyan, How can I avoid falling into steps and stages? And Yang Yan said to him, What stages have you fallen into?

[65:53]

And Dongshan said, I haven't even started practicing the Four Noble Truths. He said, Well, then what stage have you fallen into? I haven't even started to practice Buddhism, so... So that's why it says here too, it would have been better to be blind. Yeah. If we were blind in death, we wouldn't have had to go through this whole thing. Yes. You're back. Kimo's back. If you say the ox is the other, what is the difference? There must be a difference in the other seen as an ox than in stage one. Of course, this person is aware that there is other, and everybody makes a world into me and other, right?

[66:59]

point, the ox appears. So my question is, is that then the other, that is myself, or what is the difference between one seeing the other, that everybody who comes to the world sees, okay, there is me and the other, but in stage one we don't see. So what is the different quality of the ox from a person who is deluded into me and other to the viewer of the ox? Are you saying, what's the difference between the first stage and when you see the ox? Right. In the first stage, there are others. And other. The tree out there houses the people. I would say that in the second and the third stages, when you see the tracks, you think, oh, there's the other I've been wanting to engage with. So in the first, know that engaging with the other is your path that you've always wanted to do.

[68:06]

When you see the tracks, think, oh, there's something for me to engage with. Like I just thought of, Suzuki Roshi liked to move rocks. What do you find your worth of that quality of now being worth to engage in, or now being something realizing you're yearning for? What is that seeing that you see that you now realize, or that is what I was always trying to tell you, trying to... I almost hear you. So you're saying... The person now sees that there's something there for him to relate to. and there's something he's seeking, and he thinks, maybe this would be a way for me to engage with what I'm seeking. How would you call this quality of what he sees now in other, what he didn't see in other before, because he saw other in stage one?

[69:22]

Now he sees others as his way home. Or as himself, let me say that. He could also see it's his way home to himself. Now he sees these tracks of himself. He may not yet know that what he's looking for is his face before his parents were born. But he's been looking for something, and he thinks, oh, maybe this is it. Like some people hear about Zen, and they think, maybe this is it. This is what I've been looking for. They hear a Zen story. They say, this is what I've been looking for. Those are like the tracks. And everything that we've been seeing before we heard that story was equally good. Everything we've seen before that could have said, oh, this is what I've been looking for. I was looking for it, but now I see this is what I was looking for.

[70:24]

And then you see, oh, this is it. I see it. And then you actually get engaged with it. And then you maybe feel like, well, actually, that's enough. I don't want to engage with it. I'm actually going to go back to stage one. But maybe you can't go back. But maybe you can go back. We don't want to be rigid. Did I address Richard? Yeah, I think I went a little step further. Oh, I think you were next. Yes. Why aren't the ox and the self forgotten at the same time? Why aren't they? I don't know. Let's see. Why aren't they? Why aren't they what? Why aren't the self and the ox forgotten at the same time?

[71:30]

In other words, why does the self remain? It's dilated. I think it's much stronger. I think it's easier to understand that things are composed and empty. But to understand it about ourselves, I think, is stronger than the self, the catchment. I think it's dilated, and it's including the ox. So that's the dissolution of that. So the self is dilated.

[72:34]

Yes. So I'm thinking that you get to a point where you realize that itself, you and the ox are not different. The self and other are one. And then the next stage, you forget even that. So first you realize that you are the same, and then you suddenly realize that there's nothing there at all. That's kind of what we're doing. So you're suggesting that realizing that you and the ox are the same is forgetting the ox? Yeah. No, not so much forgetting the ox as realizing that you are both yourself and the ox. Right, but he wants to know, why the ox forgetting and remembering the self? Why the ox forgotten, but the self is not yet? He was asking that question. But your answer could be a possible answer to his question, is that when you realize yourself, in a sense you've forgotten the ox as not yourself.

[73:45]

You're saying, why couldn't you also realize not yourself at the same time? I think you need to do one. It's a state. Maybe you could do the same thing at the same time, but it's easier to first realize you're not different from the ox, and then suddenly you realize you're not different from anything. You're not. You're not. Yeah, so one possibility is, first you realize you're not different from anything, and then you realize that nothing's different from you. Yeah, that's correct. But maybe, can't we do both at the same time? Why does it have to be, first I realize that everything's me, and then I realize... No, first I realize I'm everything, and then I realize everything's me. Why does it have to be two stages? Couldn't it be simultaneous? It does seem like it's... between me and the ox. If I forget the ox, then myself remains. I mean, if I use the language of pivoting with me and not me, with other, why wouldn't it be that I just forget myself once I forget the other?

[74:57]

Well, but it did say, once you forget the other, then you forget yourself. So then both are forgotten. But why two different moments? And why one before the other? Maybe this is just what go on. Share your own thought. Maybe it can be the other way. Check it out. You have your own self and other to work with. See if you can find a different story. I'd be interested to see if you can show me the other way. I just found out that actually it's the other way around. I just found out that they're simultaneous. It's like doing dishes. Brett, can you talk about resistance, please?

[76:03]

Talk about resistance? No. Right then. That's the best I could do. By the way, this community puts on a pretty good resistance show. It's been great. And then once the resistance show is put on, then there's like Forgetting resistance. And then there's like not a very good resistance show anymore. It's like no resistance. Just like everybody's like there, here, now. So this is the bodhisattva path we're talking about, these stages, and you get to ten, and you say, this is really great, I'm going to do it again and bring some more people with me.

[77:16]

Is that kind of what a bodhisattva does? Really great, I'm going to go with those people. They're going to go to one, I'm going to go there with them. I'm going to hold their hand and go to one. Because in the tenth picture, the way that some people draw it, is that little guy is there in the tenth picture. Is he the same guy as the guy in the first picture? Or did he gain weight during this process? And the little guy got to be a big fat guy. And now he's ready to encounter the next little guy. And as we know, guys can be girls or boys, right? That was a long time ago. It was a long time. I just was really struck when you said, I love this practice, I hope it... And I was wondering if you could just say that again in some other way to continue to... I love this practice...

[78:26]

I love this practice, and I'm willing to do it forever, and I'm not attached to it going on. Because the practice is not to be attached to the practice going on forever. And also, the practice is not to be attached to it going on for just one more eon. But it is the spirit of, hey, this is great, I'm totally joyful at doing this, And if they say, guess what, it's over. The practice is over. I hope I can let go of it. Like Susie Grace, she said, sometimes I'm sitting and I feel like I can sit forever. When the bell rings, I get up a zucchini. So, the spirit is okay if it's forever. And I have to work out my problems with everybody. Great. And if they say, actually, we changed it, you only have to work out your problem with three people.

[79:34]

Okay? And who are the three? I'm just kidding. Actually, it's seven. Actually, it's an unlimited number. And if you accept that, then let go of that. You started a story about Suzuki Roshi liking to move rocks. Once again? You started a story about Suzuki Roshi relating to rocks and liking to move rocks, but I don't think we finished the story. Was there something more you wanted to say about that? I think when he sees rocks, he thinks, oh, you know, there's something I can relate to. That's something I can engage with. Not to say when he sees some, like the Lotus Sutra or something, that he can't do it there, but it's like he's looking for some way to engage.

[80:39]

Just rocks are good for him. For other people, it's people, or whatever. But these are, in some sense, these are like tracks. of what we want to really engage with. So in one sense, we're always just dealing with tracks of what we want to engage with. But then suddenly we feel like, oh my gosh, the tracks have become a big event. And then so on. It gets to be really challenging. And then we see the tracks, we don't notice much resistance. Just like, oh, tracks, great. But then as we get into it and find out how huge it is, then we maybe develop some resistance. Or maybe how little it is, how petty it is.

[81:42]

Whatever it is, as it evolves, we have more and more difficult It's hard to say. It's more and more difficulty resisting being wholehearted. Wholeheartedness is more and more coming to us and saying, this is what's being called upon, this is your responsibility. Which is the other side of it is, we're more and more lucky because we're more and more challenged. The resistance is not resistant. Yeah. So again, as I said, if we're at this stage, we're stuck here.

[83:01]

If we're in like eight, now eight is like totally, it is non-abiding itself. If we were to resist non-abiding itself, we will be stuck in non-abiding, which of course doesn't make any sense. But the same applies here. To be stuck in the wilderness because we're resisting it doesn't make any sense, but it does. But in eight, obviously, it's a contradiction to be abiding and no abiding. But there is not abiding and not abiding, so then you go into nine.

[84:06]

And there is non-abiding in abiding, Here there's abiding, and there's non-abiding, and there's abiding. So you go to two. We're always on the bodhisattva path. And again, number one is you don't see that you're on the bodhisattva path, but you are yearning for it. Number two, you say, We have one more class to struggle with this wonderful material. I hope we have one more week. Satsang with Mooji Satsang with Mooji

[85:07]

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