there is a teaching coming from different traditions that is quite similar. It's basically about different types of compassion. So, one, there's a teaching that there's three types of compassion. And they can be defined in terms of objects. So the first type of compassion has living beings as its objects. Living beings as such. Living beings per se. In other words, the compassion looks at living beings as though they were just like intrinsically the way they appear as objects. And wishing them to be free of suffering, and committing one's life to freeing them from suffering.

[01:16]

Sentient beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Sentient beings, per se, as the objects of compassion. The second type of compassion is to observe sentient beings in the light of the teaching, to observe suffering in the light of the teaching. And the third type, the object of the third type doesn't exist. The third type doesn't have objects. It's compassion without an object. Like I was speaking of yesterday, it's intimacy. So the first one is just like the customary way of seeing beings and feel compassion for them and be devoted to their liberation.

[02:19]

The second is to contemplate sentient beings and their suffering in the light of the Dharma. It's objectless compassion. It's just intimacy with it, with suffering. The first type is also called sentimental compassion. And sentimental in the sense of it's customary. It's the kind of compassion we would normally think of compassion. Which is, this is compassion. That's suffering. I'm compassionate. I'm compassion for that person. This way of approaching compassion. And it is part of the great compassion, which is the third type. It's part of it, but it has drawbacks. The second type is that you realize that the compassion that we feel is in the realm of our delusion, that we are deluded beings who feel compassion for other suffering beings.

[03:45]

And that our ideas of compassion are illusions of compassion. And the suffering that we're contemplating is illusory. And the beings that we're contemplating are illusory. We still have this wish to practice this illusory compassion with these illusory beings and this illusory suffering. we realize that the beings we want to practice compassion towards have no inherent existence, and we don't either. And the compassion doesn't, and the suffering doesn't. And we still wish to devote our lives to practice ungraspable compassion to ungraspable beings who have ungraspable suffering.

[04:48]

The first type of compassion has the drawback that if we practice compassion this way, we will get drained in our compassionate practice. if we care for them and we apprehend them the way they appear to us, it drains us. I helped you. I practiced patience and generosity and I was careful and kind to you And that was me.

[05:53]

And that was you. And this was the compassion. That way of relating, of grasping things that way, is compassion. It is compassion. But it is draining. And if we do it a little bit, now and then, like, I don't know, ten times a day, you can survive probably. If you do it 200 times a day, you're going to want to retire quite soon. Because every interaction, you're apprehending things that are, you're apprehending illusions, and that drains us. The second type of compassion frees us from the first type of compassion. It doesn't get rid of it. It just liberates us from the problems of the first type and then enables us to continue the work of compassion without falling into, I was compassionate to you, I helped you, or, you know, you helped me.

[07:09]

So the second type frees us from the problems of the first type. But the second type, although it's an amazing thing because it It's being devoted to beings that you don't actually believe exist, ultimately. You're devoted to beings which you understand are, what's the word, only exist conventionally. However, The second type has the problem of getting stuck in the non-existence of the other beings. The third type isn't even. It's just intimacy. And it frees us from the problems of the second type. The second type loses some of its energy because there's still some sense of separation.

[08:12]

and there's some adherence to the illusory nature of phenomena. So the first type is adhering to the substantial appearance of phenomena. Like Judy was saying yesterday, the self gets smaller, I think she said, something maybe. Did you say smaller? Lesser. It becomes less substantial. We normally, people appear to be substantial. Suffering appears to be substantial. The helper appears to be substantial. And that drains us if we apprehend that as real, that appearance of such. The second type of compassion is where we examine the first type and realize that it's illusory and it's insubstantial. The third type freezes from abiding in substantiality.

[09:28]

So we're free of abiding in substantiality by the second type we're free of abiding in the third type. So those are three types of compassion. The third type of compassion embraces the other two and liberates the other two. The first one is necessary. We must do it. Because the great compassion embraces the other two. So the first type is part of our work. The second type is to call the first type into question, to examine it, to question it, to probe it, to observe it, and to notice its drawbacks. Now, I want to talk about something else, but if you're not ready to move on from this, I mean, I think you might have a lot of questions about this,

[10:33]

but I kind of wanted to introduce something else alongside of it. So, Buddhahood is concerned, is involved in protecting beings who are living in and liberating them. And Buddhahood realizes that the prison is not a prison. Buddhahood bears on karmic consciousness, which is a prison. Buddhahood bears on the thinking consciousness and realizes that the prison is not a prison. By becoming intimate with the prison we realize that the prison of our karmic consciousness is not a prison.

[11:40]

By becoming intimate with our thinking we realize that our thinking is not thinking. And we become liberated from the prison and we become liberated with our thinking without getting rid of the prison or getting rid of our thinking. We live in the prison as we say, with gift-bestowing hands. We live in the prison joyfully and in friendship with all the beings who are in prison with us. The bodhisattvas are not outside of prison. They go into prison and they teach beings how wonderful prison life can be. Bodhisattvas dive into the weeds of thinking and they teach beings the joy of practicing thinking together and becoming free of thinking by our practicing together. They don't do it by themselves. And compassion is the way we become intimate with the prison, with our thinking.

[12:53]

And last night, Linda brought up something about forget the self. And so I wanted to also say a little bit more about that. Again, study the self means, again, to observe the self, question the self, experiment with the self, explore the self. And as that practice develops and matures, and also the studying the self has to be done in conversation with other beings. We can't go very deep into the study of the self without being in conversation with others. But by the deep conversation in this enclosure, of consciousness, where there's a self, we become free of all that, yeah, all the confinement and distortion.

[13:59]

So it says, study the self and forget the self. So what does forget the self mean? So in the case of the self in the consciousness, I mentioned that the self afflictions. So if we practice compassion with those afflictions, they are not afflictions anymore. And the self is forgotten. But what does it mean it's forgotten? It isn't eliminated. it's just not the center. We're just not afflicted with it being at the center anymore. It's still there, but it's no longer an affliction. It's just a serviceable function of the mind. In that sense, we're no longer clinging to it. We're no longer attached to it. We're no longer afraid for it.

[15:09]

It's it still can appear and disappear with consciousness. But the afflictions drop away. So those are some things I wanted to put out for a discussion this morning. Three types of compassion, forgetting the self, and also there's one of a named Sawaki Roshi, his teaching was, for Zen practice, was settle the self on the self. Settle the self on the self. Settle those afflictions onto those afflictions. Settle the self on the self. Forget the self. Not get rid of it. Forget it. Or not forget it like you should forget it.

[16:11]

It is forgotten in being intimate. Settling with the self is to be intimate with the self. And again, I think they settled the self in the self, but they need other people to come up and say, is your self settled on your self? So that's like a... I don't know how many times Zen teachers have asked their students, is your self settled on your self? Have you settled on yourself? Settled on yourself? And the student thought that they had settled their self on the self. And then the teacher asked them, and then they realized that they hadn't. Or the student comes to the teacher and says, the self is settled on the self, and the self is forgotten. And the teacher says, congratulations. And they realize, no. there's still a little unsettledness, there's still a little lack of intimacy. So this meeting between us is necessary for us to settle into consciousness, into thinking, into the self.

[17:25]

And this settling into the self and forgetting the self also can be called Buddhahood. That protects beings. That liberates beings. And the way it's done, the way we intimately settle the self into the self is by meeting each other face to face. This process of settling is giving our face to other beings and receiving theirs. Which is part of the reason why some people are very happy to be here today because we can actually give our faces to each other

[18:30]

like I've been seeing some of your faces for the last year or so, but now I'm actually seeing your face in another way. It's, yeah, it's amazing, the difference. And it's so subtle. So that's what I offer you for discussion this morning, all that. Homa. Can everybody, by the way, can you hear me well this morning? Pardon? Yes. Thank you. Homa. Thank you. I would like to first appreciate your clear explanation

[19:37]

expressions, or discussions, or teachings. And also, I really appreciate when you speak slowly, like today, it's easier to understand. Or sometimes when you speak too fast, it's like I can't help but listen, and then when it's too fast, I cannot, you know, I get mad at you. So I really appreciate that. So it became clear for me that at least I can speak for myself. The reason that I need those faces is because I'm operating on the first level of compassion. So in the first level of compassion, there's this I exist and there's this he exists and I become compassionate or others become compassionate. So as long as I'm operating with that first level of compassion, compassion all of these things rises in me which which is which also I'm starting to understand the second and third level and we are to bring to bring it all together yeah so it was very very

[21:07]

I thank you for what you said you said what I said in a slightly different way which is helpful I just thought of another part of it is yeah like I'm helping you and please come back so I can help you some more I'm helping you and don't come back so I can help you more. All that kind of stuff happens. And that's part of the deal. The deal with that. I saw two people. Marlena and Jessica. Yeah. I invite you to go into this with me right now. You, all of you. And go into this intimate and share what it has been this year for me. So I took my bath six years ago, and this year I hear the call, and I say, okay, it's time to go with Melissa Baba.

[22:30]

And jump, as you said, and went. And I went into the, I joined a K-pop program, and the good secret with guilt comes down. So, I have been in this process because the chakras requires precisely being in the self-compassion, in the compassion. And it has been a process also because to be compassionate with others and to be able to breathing all the space in the chakras for the others, I have to get to know myself first and go through all this process of my traumas and my personal issues to get into the world. It's like open the space inside myself and being compassionate about myself and my cultural comments and being at the same time knowing that I have suffered but the sufferer has known.

[23:38]

It's quite hard. But I experienced the first compassion with your childhood boys, like people, social workers, people working in not-for-profits. Being with people that suffer and taking that energy, you have to be as ready, you prepare compassion for yourself. Because otherwise, you get drained, as you say. And I can feel it, that with all the suffering in the world, with the people, children, with the border, with the African-Americans suffering, all the social interstices of racism, of de-organization in every day life. And every time it's going on in the planet, and the air is suffering, the air is crying, it's screaming in hell. I'm here, right here, stop. It's coming from her. This is her. So now she's getting to be moved by all this. So you get to this first level and you feel like, wow, this is really normally training.

[24:43]

It's very important. And thanks to your conversation, because you can talk about this and what they didn't notice for the first time. about what is worse, sentiment or compassion. I said, what is this to do? And he said, so thank you very much. Go to the second part, to the second compassion, second part, say, I said, I'm talking about my process, and that's when the question to you come. To avoid people, it's like what is going on with the process too. When you demonstrate this kind of sentiment or compassion, really quick, I think, people with non-philosophy are so proud, and I look at them, and I look quietly at all the nurses, right after they are feeding the hospitals, because when you get there, so I got it that my Buddhist practice, and your teaching, So that's what it means.

[25:43]

Also, I know I suffer. I suffer, I suffer, I flow. And I started giving to this guy what is the confession of truth and the truth. And it's a little bit difficult there, too, because you can't take it in the midnight voice. I'm just kidding, sorry. Right? Oh, thank you. So... You can, that's the danger, and I felt it there. And I tried to walk, but I feel the suffering now. It is on the path, and it became, and I understand when you say, when you can be suffering, and you are suffering, but it's not stopping, you don't want to get for, like, drowning. Well, it's really freedom, because we are suffering anyway. We are here, we are in the conventional world, so, And I still have questions about how you start, because that's what I .

[26:46]

I want to start . And it's a lot of issues with racism and social justice. So how do I get my practice? Is the place for this? So what part of your process? Oh, stuck? So, um... Do you feel some stuckness in the process? Between my Buddhist practices, with my experience of the suffering and the being, into the compassion path, it works out.

[27:55]

And the question we have about how to go challenges, like the discussion of race, the way power, race power is organized. And once you get into this path, it's like albinism is also common. And you see it all the time. It's like, whoop, whoop. You see this piece of evidence. It's like the bells come out, and you can't And again, this is what I think, or you say, oh, this is the way it is, or, okay, how do I get skillful? Where do I get the skill? Going to this compassion. Really, that's where I am right now. It's kind of, I don't find my practice in who is teaching me the social interest, but also the things that I'm reading, reading, reading. When you asked the question, how do I get to skills, I saw some heads nodding with the question, how do I get to skills?

[29:12]

How do I become skillful? Yeah. So you're looking at the ocean of suffering, and the question arises, how do I become skillful? Yeah. Yeah. Are you there with those questions? Yeah. Are you settled with those questions? Are you settled? Yeah, yeah.

[30:25]

So, yeah, I feel, I feel very good about your questions and then I wonder, now let's settle with those questions. Let's observe those questions. Let's experiment with those questions. But that's not the same as getting an answer to the questions. You could use answers to the questions as experiments, but not to get anything. If you try to get something, you're going to be stuck in the first type of compassion. So this question arises, and I think many people appreciate that question. How do we become ... practice compassion with this ocean of suffering?

[31:26]

And now let's ... that's something to contemplate, that question. Contemplate. Observe that question. Observe that question. Do you want to settle into that question? Do you want to live with that question? I do too. Let's do it, yeah. And will that bring the skills? Will this observation bring the skills? Let's see. If it doesn't, let's see. If it doesn't, does that mean it never will? Let's see. Let's do it. Let's do this. Let's contemplate these questions. Let's make them something we remember, that we recollect throughout the day in a way that we

[32:34]

feel confidence and enthusiasm about remembering. So I'm enthusiastic about remembering your questions and observing them and experimenting with them and exploring them. That's the path I'm going you on. Jessica. Could Jessica use a microphone? I asked for the microphone. Rep, could we use the microphone? Should I carry it? You want to do it? You want to do it? We could have a relay race. I want to tell you a funny thing, a funny story.

[33:44]

Excuse me, I'll take away funny. I want to tell you a story. Sometimes when we do formal ceremonies, we carry a stick. Have you seen that? We carried this stick, and I had one one time, and I was talking, having a meeting with somebody, and she says, what is that baton for? Because In Japanese we call it a kotsu, but it's also a stick, you know. And it's been called other things, like teaching staff or whatever. I called it a baton. I hadn't heard it called a baton before, and I thought, oh, baton's kind of an interesting word, because a baton is used to lead an orchestration of something, but it's also used, like, in a relay race, you pass the baton. And I thought, is both those meanings. It's used to orchestrate, to lead some symphony, but it's also something that you pass on to the next person, to pass on to the next person.

[34:55]

So anyway, now you have the baton. And I think police use them to beat people. Police use them too. Do they hit people with them? They do. Yeah. And the direct... Yeah, thank you. That's important. Thank you. And the majorettes spin the batons. Yeah. So baton is a nice word. So now you have the baton. I do. So I have a question about protection and for people who have already died. Does great compassion protect them? Does it what? Protect the people who have already died.

[35:58]

Yes. I thought you would say that. So what's great compassion with... Say that again. I'm just taking the time. We're going to end at about 10 o'clock, right? So, yeah, so can you be intimate with a person who has died? Yes. Yeah. And how do you do that? How do you practice intimacy with someone who has died? To me, it's easier. It feels like they are here. They're not out there anymore. So it feels almost like there's no choice. Because they're just almost there.

[37:04]

And The compassion is there all the time. The love is there all the time. I see how it helps me, but I don't see how it helps that person. You don't see it. That's right. And also, you think you see how it helps you. You think you see how it helps you. But I was suggesting you cannot see how it helps you. But that's not the full extent of how it helps you, I would say to you. And you can't see how it helps him, but the way you actually help him, nobody can see. Even the 10,000 sages don't know. So this is why some of them might say, this is a spiritual teaching. So this practice we're doing, even the 10,000 sages don't know.

[38:15]

This intimacy, we do see how it happens. That's fine that you see how it's happening. That's fine. But that's not how it... The way it's really happening is beyond your perception of how it's happening. And if you have a perception, then that perception doesn't reach it. However, if you don't have a perception, not having a perception doesn't reach it either. And part of you wants to have a perception of it. Okay? That's perfectly... We all like... We... into perception is part of our thing here. Perceptions in our common consciousness that we... our mind makes, for example, another human being into something we can perceive. But that's not all they are. They're not separate, but that doesn't comprehend them.

[39:23]

So, when you were first saying that, you know, I was imagining you being intimate with this person who has died. And I remembered a Zen story about A Zen monk, every morning he got up and he said, Master. And then he would say, Yes. Are you awake? Yes. All day long. Don't let anything... And I thought, that would be something that one could do with a person who has died. Every morning, say... Say his name. And answer. Are you awake? Answer. And all day long, don't be fooled by all these perceptions. Just stay with the intimacy with him.

[40:24]

Every morning, check in with him. invite him to meet you, and then all day long. Don't let anything distract you from that intimacy. Of course, it might happen that you get distracted, but that's your intention, is not to be distracted from this intimacy. And how that intimacy helps you, I can't see, and you can't see. The ten thousand sages can't see how that intimacy helps you. But that is the teaching. Jessica? Yes. Are you awake? Yes. All day long, don't let anything fool you. I won't. I mean, I'll try not to. How does that help you? Oh, I see. Or I don't see. But it does. That's the teaching. That's the practice that's being offered.

[41:30]

How does it work? I don't know. But that person did that practice and that's been transmitted to us. I also wonder what is he protected from? Well, it's more like what to be protected with, too. Like, again, birth and death. Somebody's dying. The protection is to be loving-kindness in the death, towards the sickness. We have sickness, the protection is loving-kindness and compassion. That's the protection. Intimacy is the protection. If something, if some pain's out there, it harms us. If it's not out there, it doesn't harm us. That's the teaching. The ancient teacher says, who can take the bell strings off the tiger's neck?

[42:39]

I guess maybe, I don't know, you know, with cats sometimes they put bells on them to protect the birds, right? But they can also put bell strings on tigers' necks when they're little. People would dare to put tiger bells on a tiger cub, right? Who can take the bell strings off the tiger's neck? The one who put them on can take it off. In other words, if you can be intimate, if you're intimate with the tiger, take the bells off the tiger's neck. So intimacy is the way to help people who are sick, people who are dying, and people who have died. How it works is demonstrated by doing the practice.

[43:44]

How to verify that is by doing the practice. And then you do the practice and you feel verification. But how did that work? You feel courage and enthusiasm to go on with the suffering. You feel joy to help other people who are suffering. How did that work? Well, it worked because you did the practice. And when you first started in the practice, you kind of were somewhat confused and inconsistent and didn't really put your whole heart into it. And then you did. you feel like, I want to keep doing this. So if you do this practice with a deceased person, that's how it works. The practice you're doing, but the way it works is not anything other than what you're doing. Is it Sean?

[44:52]

Miles. Miles, yes. Are you awake? All day long, don't let anything fool you. I won't. Do that practice. That's how it helps him. That's how it helps you. And you might not be able to see how it helps you. But you can see how it helps him. But again, what you see is not how it is. It's just something you see. It's a lovely perception. That's what I would say about... And I can do that with Suzuki Roshi. I can do that with my father and my mother. I can do that with my grandson. So I do that.

[45:56]

And I water his tree. I go and water my grandson's tree. How does that protect him? That's how it protects him. Me watering that redwood tree is how that's protecting him. That's the way I do it. Here's another story. Somebody said to me, a person said to me, you don't know how you help people. And I thought, right. But then he told me how I help people. He told me a story of how I help people and I didn't know about it. That story.

[46:58]

But then he told me one. He didn't know, but then he thought he knew. And so he told me. He and his fiancee were going to get married. They went to a jeweler to buy a ring. And they found something they liked. And they felt kind of uncomfortable about the price the person wanted for it. And they were kind of like, I don't know what they were doing, they were kind of like having kind of an uncomfortable conversation. And his wife, his future wife, said, noticed that among his jewels he had some Buddhist statues. Are you a Buddhist? And he said, yeah. And they said, oh, where do you practice? And he told them, and he said, well, who's your teacher? And he said, Rev Anderson's my teacher. And they said, oh, he's your teacher? Oh, he's going to do our wedding ceremony.

[48:00]

And then the guy gave them a much better price. And started acting very nice to them. And everything was very harmonious. So he told me, see, you didn't know, but... I don't know how I help people. We don't know how we're helping people. The way we help people is how we're relating to them now. That's how we help them. That's how they're protected. But the problem is we can't see it. Then sometimes we hear stories. Oh, that's nice. The thing is, do the practice of being intimate with your boy. Do that practice. That's how he's protected by what you're doing. Your life is how he's protected.

[49:02]

Your life is how he's liberated. But it's your life of service. It's your life of devotion to him. It's not your life If you're not protecting yourself and taking care of yourself, that doesn't protect him. But if you do this practice for him, that protects you. You can see that. And that protects him. But don't look for anything beyond what you're doing. Just do what you're doing wholeheartedly all day long. Take care of your other boys and your husband for him. that protects him and protects you. And how does it protect you? How does it protect you? It protects you by you doing that. You doing that is the protection, is the liberation.

[50:04]

But it's very subtle, you know, to think, oh, you do that and then something else happens, rather than the practice is the realization. Practice is the awakening. Practice and then the awakening. Or, I think of him and wish him well and pray for his peace and freedom and then his peace and freedom is something other than that. No. It mustn't be. But you can start with that. I do this and that. That's the sentimental way. I'm talking about the intimate way. That what you're doing, your life you're living, is his protection. Thank you. You're welcome. Passing the baton?

[51:14]

Yeah. Did you have a hand raised, Marie? I'm thinking about, based on your conversation with Jessica, and I, well, I'm thinking about faith, and I haven't heard you really talk about that since we've been here. F-A-I-T-H? Correct. Yeah. So what you're saying is that just the act of doing these things, that's it. Because we can't really know what's going to happen. But if our intention is to... Could I say something just at that point?

[52:16]

Just before... because we can't really know, that's kind of like a... I don't know what... that's true, but before you said that is where the faith is. There's no... there's not a... with faith there's not a because. But there is a because. which helps you go back before the because and do the thing wholeheartedly. And then, and they say, well, I do it wholeheartedly because I can't know. It's true that you can't know. But in doing the action, the practice wholeheartedly, that people have a hard time doing the thing wholeheartedly. Right? But when you have realization, you can do it wholeheartedly. So it's faith when you actually can do it fully, but that's also realization.

[53:23]

So it's faith and realization. And also there's a because. You know. But it's sort of after or before the just doing it after realization. And then doing it as realization is a statement of faith. So, good morning, Marie. Or, not even good morning. Marie, yes. That's a statement of faith. Nobody knows what's going on there. What are you doing when you say, Marie, yes? What's happening there? Even the 10,000 sages don't know. But before we ask the question, you're just sitting. You're just calling your name. And when you do it wholeheartedly, that is faith. that is practice, that is realization.

[54:27]

And also, by the way, nobody knows what that is. None of the Zen ancestors know what that is, but they practiced it, and they realized it. That was their faith. So Dogen said, and again, Dogen, when he was dying, he said, concerning the Buddha Dharma, there's 10 million things I do not yet have clarified. But I have the joy of right faith, which is we do the practice, and this is doing the practice is the realization. So that is our faith. And by the way, nobody knows what a dad is, including Dogen. Yeah, good. Thank you. You're welcome. So also when I was talking to Jessica, that was a statement of faith from me.

[55:29]

That was my faith. So I live in the conventional world, and I'm a person who has to be supported. You want to be supported? I want to be supported. Thanks for supporting me. I... I was touched when you were talking with Marlena because I realized that, especially with heard your, your differentiation of the three compassions this morning. I like doing the first one. And part of why I like doing this, I get people going, Oh, that's good. Thank you. Yeah. And I sometimes do the second one. I'm not sure if I've ever done this. I do the second, I'm pretty sure I don't get any support. Like, you know, that the people who are not of this ilk or have not heard this teaching, and I don't know if that keeps me away from doing the second one and just staying in the first.

[56:36]

You don't know of what? If that lack of... Oh, that's where you need to find some people to have conversations with. People who want to have conversations with you. Yes. Who want to observe and question. But not everybody is ready for the second type. They're into the first type of doing it and enjoying it and maybe not yet noticing the drawbacks. But people who have burnout, they may be willing to talk to you. People who are like you, who are doing this practice, and getting thanks, and feeling good about it. You're doing the practice, you're feeling good. You're doing the practice, you're feeling better. You're doing the practice, you're feeling better. Feeling better and better. And then you explode. So that kind of practice, when you're doing the second type, you're not really feeling better or worse.

[57:44]

You're observing feeling better and worse, which is what the first type has. The first type has these outflows, these drains. The drains are also called floods. So it floods in and floods out. The technical Buddhist term is asarava, which means outflow, but it also inflows. You gain and lose. You're practicing compassion, but you gain and lose. Yeah, we helped this person today. Oh, we didn't help that person. You're getting shoved around. And a little bit of that is still enjoyable because it's good work. And you do get some gains. But if you do it a lot, you start to notice that the way you're doing it is pushing you around and jacking you up and draining you up. So with people who are doing the practice with you who have noticed that those people are willing to talk to you and have conversations and support you to do this.

[58:50]

The first kind is hard. It's good. The second kind is hard in another way, but it's good. And the third type, it works. You said you don't know about the third type. The third type you're already doing, you just haven't discovered yet. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'll try to discover. Yeah, and the way you discover it is by doing what you're already doing and then questioning what you're already doing. But you need some friends to question, and you're in this group sometimes, right? Yeah. I was thinking in the rest of my life. You haven't been questioning too much during this retreat, but in past retreats he asks lots of questions. Thank you so much. The questioning, this is a group where you've been questioned. Because these people are not self-righteous about their compassion. Self-righteous compassion? There's another word for it. I'm being compassionate to you. I know what compassion is and I'm laying it on you.

[59:51]

Or I can say who in this room is... That's, again, sentimental compassion, but also self-righteous. We need to question our self-righteousness about compassion. We need to invite other people to question it. And so we need friends to converse, to get us into the second, and then to converse about that. So we have the third, which is already here. It's already here. It's unconstructed. The third is unconstructed. You can't see it. But you can discover it even though you can't see it. You can discover something you can't see. And I upset some people by using Christopher Columbus as an example of an explorer without noticing that he was also a very cruel administrator in the lands that, you know, I guess on the island of Hispaniola.

[60:59]

And he tortured the indigenous people. He did horrible things. But he's a good example of an explorer. He was looking for something and he discovered something and didn't know what it was. But he was an explorer and he did make discoveries and he discovered a new world and he thought it was an old world. And he was self-righteous about it till the end of his life. He held on and nobody could help him. Thank you, Paul, for your questioning. About those three... Yes. So I was thinking that another way to think about them is the way I've always thought about the Heart Sutra, form emptiness, form emptiness.

[62:22]

And talking about those three, yeah, so I didn't think there was a need for three, but it's okay that you gave us three, you know. It's just like, sort of like a donkey cart horse. And I wanted to say that form emptiness, form emptiness seemed like first compassion, second compassion. And what I always got from the Heart Sutra was that form is emptiness, form is emptiness, and when that is actually happening, then you're in what you call the third compassion. Yeah? So I wanted to check this with you, but while I was thinking of checking it with you, I noticed at the same time as sincerely wanting to just have that conversation about these ways of talking about compassion, I was also afflicted by wanting you as a substantial person and as many people as possible in this room to love me and admire me for saying that.

[63:43]

And that Seems like a kind of affliction. And I was going to ask you for a little help. And then I already jumped to an imagination of what you might say. Just this simple, helpful hint, which is open up in compassion, let your chest flow out and embrace your grasping and your needing of people Cover the whole land and part of the land is that. That's part of the land. That's it?

[64:50]

The that's it, that's you. I wouldn't say that's it. It just keeps flowing. That's not it. In other words, even the 10,000 sages don't know it, even though it would flow out of your breast and cover that wish for appreciation. It goes there, yes. And then stop before you say, that's it. But that would be what I would say, you're right. And including that, We don't have to get rid of that. That wish doesn't need to be gotten rid of. It needs to be embraced from here. Did it get it? Did it flow out for that?

[65:57]

I don't know what to say, but did it happen? Even my one or seven or eight little sages don't know yet. Yeah, so that would be the teaching, and she's not sure if it happened. And also, in the original story, this is like, this is the story of Yanto and Shrephon. They were Dharma brothers, but Yantou was also Shui Fung's teacher who said, just let it flow out and cover the earth. It doesn't say that Shui Fung, that it did flow out of him, it just said he woke up. And then, and then, from then on we get to watch how it flowed for the rest of his life. But he woke up to that's where it's at. And so now let's watch it.

[66:57]

And watch, which the 10,000 sages don't know, but we're watching it. Do you understand? We're watching it flow from our breaths, and we can't see it. I don't know who's next. How many hands are there? So how many? Because there are four people, they're all closely related. It's kind of a neighborhood thing. I just wanted to say, Linda, how much I admire and love you. I wasn't trying to get you to say that. That's a key factor. I wish for it, but I'm not trying to get it. We naturally, as social animals, we want people to appreciate us.

[68:08]

It's built into our nervous system, into our cells. That's okay. I mean, that's like unavoidable. But we don't attach to that and try to get it. But it's naturally that we wish for it. That we can just say, okay, there's the wish, and then and then not act that out. Yeah. I want to speak to what Marlene brought up. I worry about spiritual bypass for myself, whatever that is. Can I say something right there? Yeah. It's fine to worry, but you can also, without worrying, just... Just keep vigilant about spiritual bypass. The worry is optional. The observation is essential.

[69:10]

Watching out for spiritual bypass is essential. But worrying is optional. It doesn't really help you observe to worry. Just keep your eyes on it. And it tires you a little bit to worry. So just watch out for it. It could be happening any time, any place, that we could be circumventing suffering by some spiritual technique. I think some people... You don't recognize the term? I don't know what it is either. But I'll tell you what I'm worried about, about it. Actually, I think the person who gets credit for that term is the former John Wellwood. term spiritual bypass which is to use like to use meditation to avoid pain like some people practice concentration and when and as a way to avoid pain or somebody else like this autistic person i heard him say that when he was being teased it's like overwhelmingly painful for him because he couldn't cope with the neurological storm that was going on he would just start squaring numbers

[70:30]

And then by this technique, he would like go to this island of peace that storm to get away from the pain. The problem is, he said, how to get back from the island. So the problem with spiritual bypass is it takes you away from the suffering and then it's harder to get back. So it's good to watch out for MIT pain. So there's various techniques and concentration is one of the main ones that will sort of like not really protect you from the pain but bypass it. Whereas loving kindness like meets it. meets it, doesn't go around it. And again, when we first start practicing compassion, we might do a kind of spiritual bypass type of compassion, which seems like we're meeting it, but really we're skirting around it.

[71:32]

That's why we need other people to say, you're not really facing it, I don't think. Are you really facing it? Look out for that spiritual bypass and help other people Some people tell us, you know, what they're doing, and we say, oops, I think you're spiritual bypassing. I think you're circumventing the pain. So watch for it in yourself, and if you notice in yourself, with that too. So let's be vigilant and careful about the possibility of slipping into circumventing suffering. Thank you. I think more accurately, I don't think I'm worried about it. I do think I'm conscious of it. And for me, it would look like being so into Buddhism and everything is just the way it is, so I'm just loving the world the way it is, that it doesn't take me into the streets.

[72:37]

It doesn't have me read the What can I do? What should I do? So that's the story in my head. But the thing I wanted to say is that, and I was thinking about the word faith before we even brought it up today, that I do have a faith that this practice, that my practice, is trustworthy in a certain way and that whatever my guilt is or my fear of... It's really fear of not doing enough. That's what the real fear is. Okay, I'm willing to be this uncomfortable. I'm willing to let in this much pain. And then I'm saying... Did you say fear of not doing enough? Yes. Okay, so there's a good one. Don't circumvent the fear of not doing enough. If... The fear of not doing enough is present in a lot of consciousnesses. But what some people try to do in response to the fear of not doing enough is they try to do more to get rid of the fear.

[73:43]

That make sense? Which is acting out... and it's acting out avoiding doing your job. So when you're afraid of not doing enough, don't do more so that you won't be afraid of not doing enough. Embrace the fear of not doing enough, and that's doing something. Yes, that's wonderful. And I feel like what you were saying to Jessica, I feel is a little bit applicable for me here, is that just revisit, okay, right now. Okay, how is it right now? So the questioning and not having a... bad you or good you is helpful for me. And then my final thing I wanted to say is that I feel like practice and study has increased to be with pain, to be helpful with suffering people.

[74:46]

And specifically, I've spent time working in prison where there's phenomenal amount of suffering right here. And it's just at the edge of what I can bear and be present to. And to the extent that I can and am, I understand what this practice provides. Yeah. So that helps you, did you say, increases your capacity? Yeah. The etymology of the word for, the Sanskrit word for patience, which is kshanti, which sounds like Shanti. Shanti's peace, right? Because Shanti, the root of it, means capacity. So patience is capacity for suffering. And by practicing it, it increases. We can increase it.

[75:48]

You can increase it by sitting still for a while and dealing with what comes up there. You can increase it by visiting... You can increase it by reading about the history of the caste system and racism in America, to listen to these painful stories, to taste these. These are ways to massage and open your capacity. As part of the work is patience, increasing capacity, and also increasing the ability to be present with it. So opening up to the pain through patience, being present with the pain through patience. Thank you. I'm not fully sure I'm the one before Susan, so I want to check with that.

[76:58]

Okay. As usual. As usual. I just seemed really... It just seemed important to me that it was okay with you if I went first or I could give... Thank you. What would you like? Oh, I have no preference. For once. Okay. Thank you. Okay. And I'm not sure what I'm going to say here. My question is, if there's a question, there is one, I'm sure. And it has to do with what I'm willing to risk in a given moment in my practice. And there's many You don't know you've helped me. And I have a list of Reb-isms, and I think it's up to about 16 or 17 right now. And they're really marvelous for really deep, deep guide points for me.

[78:14]

And one of them is not to take on a practice that's too advanced for you at any given moment. afraid, but if you're too afraid, so I'm wanting to check in with that about why am I actually speaking right now. And so I think, my voice is just echoing for me, I think, I hear I think, I think, the question is like, how do I know I'm being wholehearted? And am I willing to risk that? Because I bet a lot on that farm. So... My experience in my life that I hold is 100%, and Rev has gotten up to walk to write down something. Mm-hmm. Thank you for writing that down.

[79:23]

And my experiences are, one, I wasn't looking for a teacher. I was looking for a new creative home. I'd been an actor in New York, and I just knew I was done. And I think that probably was the middle of an audition. in the middle of an audition inside me. And I could see their faces be so confused when I ended, because I continued to do my monologue. But I was just clearly done with being an actor in New York. And I went looking, I thought, to become a theater director. And I was looking at different places. I even got a job as assistant director for a whole year at the Milwaukee Rep. But it wasn't starting for a while. And I was 39 and I came to Zen Center because years before a teacher had said to me I needed to find some repose. And so that had lived in me. And that day was stunning for me where...

[80:25]

And I may get back to that. But I just knew this was it. This was what I was looking for. So I never became a theater director. This is the conversation I wanted to be in. I knew that that first day. And it was Wendy and the whole day. And then I didn't meet Rev until a few months later. And I knew he was the abbot. So I went, oh, he's the abbot. But when the first time I saw him do a Dharma talk, He reached out. He wore glasses then. You wore glasses then. And you reached out, and the way you put on your glasses, he hears and says, that's my teacher. And because that, for me, my whole body has just been listening and listening and listening in every fiber to how you responded to things, to how you did things. I just followed it. And so I'm speaking now. I don't feel completely that way about you anymore, so I wanted to say that. And I still, like, this weekend, I watched, there's so many things, whoa, yeah, but it's that, that response, I don't know how to do that, that one, ooh.

[81:38]

I'm saying I think it has to be about the middle way that San Francisco Zen Center did not have the structural support for my practice when I tried to engage. When the metaphor yesterday of the stucco at Tassajara, the Japanese form of not sticking, that was how I felt about it. Suzuki Rossi's teaching, where it was meeting us now here, that it just wasn't quite the formula. And I kept speaking and asking for it everywhere. And I tried to reach, as a non-resident, so many offerings and so many try to play with people. And they didn't play back. And so I finally went around saying, and people loved it, and I loved it, I'm getting a divorce. And people laughed because I married Zen Center, but I didn't ask them, and they didn't marry me. There was some way that no one ever agreed to marry me back, but I was going around like I was married to Zen Center, and I'd never been married back.

[82:49]

And that was great, and you came to my house, and you understood all that. And now with my own trauma work, my finding the spiritual bypass part, which is, I didn't even know what was running my life and driving me, the pain and the trauma. And the language that now REB is bringing a lot into the nervous system and all of that has allowed me to start to be very different sensing inside and find that supported enough at Zen Center. And I didn't find collective supported at Zen Center. There was A lot of, one of the other great things that I heard in this room, which I really appreciated from the mothers here bringing their lives, was it was never a good idea, you know, really just not a good idea to make, what's it called? a one-sided, a unilateral decision. Human beings do not like unilateral decisions.

[83:54]

So that was a whoa in me. And I felt when I tried to do things at Zen Center, not in practice periods, but in anything else as a community, that there were a lot of unilateral decisions. And so I kept thinking the problem was me, And I needed to keep adjusting. Whatever I find, I don't know. But there was something about permission to look for a form, I don't know, to find it in me and rather look for it outside. And to find structures that model what there are. So I think I'm finding a hard time to say that. Because it's like, this is a risk, you know, that there's models, like what Marlena was saying. Like, I sit with Rev.

[84:55]

Angel Kyoto Williams five days a week online because it embodies the Zen practice piece for me, the trauma piece, and the social justice piece. And it just embodies it. And it's just not there. It's more there. From this weekend, I can feel it's more. But for me to say that out loud, I want to say it's really scary to say that the forms don't exist anymore. Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you. Elizabeth's just reminding me that the story that you shared, and... Shui Fong.

[86:24]

Shui Fong. I don't remember the whole story, but part of it was that one of the brothers was a very diligent sitter, was very much into the forms, and I wouldn't say if it was a subtle complaint or something, but the other was maybe... Not showing the forms in the same way. And I don't know who said what to the other, but I have a feeling that it was the one who was maybe sleeping that said to the one who was very really diligently in the forms, offering the wisdom of, you know, just let it flow. from your heart. So I just wanted to revisit that story in light of what Elizabeth was offering. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Could you hear what she's saying?

[87:25]

Could you hear? So she was saying, she was talking about the story that Linda brought up about where somebody said, The front gate is not the family jewels. Just let it flow out from your breaths and cover the world. The one who... Amanda told more of the stories that in the early part of her story, one of them was diligently sitting and the other was like sleeping. And the one who was sitting said to the other one, you know, you shouldn't be lazy. And the other one says, you shouldn't be so uptight. You should take a rest. And they kept going back and forth like that for a while. And in the end was this. Don't you realize that what is brought in through the front gate is not the family jewels? The family jewels, of course, are already in the house. Just let it flow out.

[88:31]

She was relating that to the issue of the forms. Yeah, when you think about what is the purpose of the forms. Yeah, what's the purpose of the forms? What's the vote for? One was kind of attached to them and using them. The other was not attached to them and wasn't using them. They practiced the forms a lot. And their dialogue led to this great awakening. Using the forms, not using the forms. It's... We use the forms... And we use them to discover and then let go. Sometimes we don't know we're attached until we practice the forms. And then the forms are now a way we can discover and be compassionate to our attachment to the forms.

[89:35]

And then they really start working for us when we have a passion for these forms which we're practicing together, including saying in relation to the forms, the forms are not working for me. That's part of someone's path, is to say, the forms are not working for me. And then how do we relate to them? And we can say the forms aren't working for us, with or without attachment. And it feels like the realization of, like, further in that one Dogen fascicle or teaching of here is the way, you know, so here the way unfolds. Yeah. And so, you know, embracing and opening To hear, yeah.

[90:36]

Yeah, that's a statement of faith. Here is the way. Here the way unfolds. And a thought experiment. An experiment with that, yeah. When you find your place right where you are, practice occurs. The fundamental point. The way unfolds from here. So this is Dogen's statement of faith. And his practice. He practiced finding his way here. And I further, if it's okay, the boundary is not distinct, and yet it responds to the inquiring impulse.

[91:38]

Yeah. I practice realization. Like, you make me you know, the boundary is not distinct outside of our relationship and all of our relationships. And here's the place. And so Elizabeth said, the forms for me I'm not working for the forms. And thank you for taking care of the forms during this retreat, ringing the bells.

[92:43]

Thank you. She orchestrated our Our forms, thank you. What attracted me to Zen, I didn't see any forms in what attracted me. But then I found out that what attracted me was the fruit of working with forms. and you are the fruit of working with forms, too. So all of us have been working with these forms and we are the fruit of our work. All of us are. You may not call yourself a Zen student, and if I talk to Zen students, if I ask them, I don't want to say yes to that, They feel more comfortable saying that they're Zen students.

[93:48]

They don't necessarily want to say they're religious. But these are Zen students I'm talking to who are not comfortable saying that they're Zen students. It's part of our being. that we have a lot going on. It's very complex. I was a little bit... I feel a start. Oh, yeah. This is a little bit strike on myself inside and resistance always.

[94:54]

You know, I noticed that it's one part of my discovery with myself this year that I always resist. That's the first thing. I am always like, hmm, let's see. And I think it's part of, you know, my background, my formation, my life, my childhood, et cetera. So it's always asking questions. And at school, I always got in trouble because of commenting or saying, going against the grain. So what I want to say is that the forms for me at the beginning, I really resist them. And I say, why do I have to vow to these people? Why do I have to bow, you know? And all this kind of that I felt in the sandal was very uncomfortable. It was like, why do you have all these, you know, hierarchy things that you have to go through? And then I start practicing exactly what the Chin Chin means.

[95:56]

Hey, there are no preference. And and change because I trust in mind. I say, well, is I going to do this? I have to trust it and I have to go into it. And suddenly the resistance came and I became so happy doing orioke and learning all this. It's like, wow, what a discovery for myself to be Being a little bit flexible and being open and taking out this resistance that sometimes can tell you, it also wakes you down. And I feel that it's questioning about the world, about what's happening, what to do, what is the right thing. It's also sometimes heavy. So it's some kind of... Second, the compassion to be free for this is also give you like the strength to go back maybe to the first and gave me some breath and being and appreciated being all of you.

[96:57]

And I just want to say that I haven't had. And you have been very courageous because I know it's all the people feeling the same and just saying, not here, not saying people here, but around the community. So thank you. You are being very courageous, and we love you. I love you. I mean, sorry to talk for all of you. In a way, everybody, but I love you. Thank you. Thank you, Rev. Tina. So, listening to what everyone has commented on before me and the many years of practice with pretty much everyone in the room and taking in all the information about compassion, what comes to my mind an underlining

[98:02]

I don't want to say theme, but a feeling that I have of do you care too much or too little is what I'm thinking right now of to everyone speak. So maybe I'll start with a Reb story. I actually haven't been very present in for maybe about 10 years. About 10 years ago I started exploring a different path and I remember in Dokusan I shared it with Reb and I shared that

[99:17]

I was hesitant because I believed in the path of vertical practice of going deeper and deeper. And his response was, you know, Jude, sometimes he said, Judy, I don't think he said Jude, um, you know, Judy, some when you're digging a ditch, It's better for the shovel to start going horizontally in order for it to go deeper. So I've continued to practice strongly, mostly form, though Zen has never left me.

[100:46]

And I think one of the biggest things that occurred for me is I really got how I had to love myself in all of the afflictions, which seemed pretty strong. And somewhat recently, I don't know, I don't know how long, I've really... There's been an opening that I started to really get that on the same profound level with other people. And so coming up here, the thought of coming up here, I was excited about being with a group of people and we all having our own afflictions. And so it's been really beautiful. everyone coming forward.

[101:58]

And there's many things I appreciate about you, Reb. And one of them is that you have been weaving a Sangha tradition with open-heartedness. And so I love to see the manifestation of it as exhibited this weekend. Or the ocean might be more poetically said. Anyway, I think that's all I would like to say. So thank you. Should I give it to Homa? Should I give it to Susan? If I can wrap myself. Before what?

[103:04]

Before you wanted to respond, I jumped. Now we acknowledge your jump. When Linda first came in and sat down, I think she didn't recognize me. Did you? This is an experiment. This is an experiment in talking about me and you. And I recognized you immediately. From this 40 or 50, a lot of years ago, in a different lifetime, we sat together at San Francisco Zen Center. And I am so happy to see you here and strangely appearing. And then as you told your story, I remember part of my story is at a certain point, I thought I was walking away from Zen practice and you.

[104:18]

But the story has a different idea, and even my telling of the story doesn't seem quite right. And the odd thing is, here we are in this room together. I wouldn't have predicted this particular storyline. Less than ever, and this self, it It feels like there's a little more spaciousness here. And I feel how these stories are going to turn out. Thank you. It says take care right on it. I'd like to express my question and my wish, like I wished we would even speak in our languages in more of a neutral form, like I am a student.

[106:13]

I'm not a student of Zen. I'm not a student of Siddha Yoga. I'm not a student of any teacher, but I am a student. So attaching our friendship like my friends or my Siddha Yoga friends or my family friends, my Zoroastrian friends. I think adding anything to friendship, adding anything to student, It causes separation. It brings not intimacy because it creates this and that.

[107:18]

So my way or language would be more neutral, more simple as possible. That reminds me of... I think it was a newspaper headline when Pope just became Pope. Cardinal Ratzinger, right? The headline was a statement from the new Pope. This friendship is the door. And I thought, whether this, and I'm totally with you, Friendship is the door. But he said this. And I felt, oh, that's too bad. It was so nice without the this. I just wanted to say before I forget that... Yes?

[108:39]

Yeah, please bring it up. Please take care of it and bring it up here. I just want to say that I think... Do we have a schedule to meet with Fred Sampson?

[108:50]

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