We've been looking at how to look at koans, how to look at ultimate truth. We've been talking about how to look at the of events, the final meaning of events. And I've been recommending looking at the events called bodhisattva precepts to look at them, to look at the ultimate truth of them and to look at them as also, you know, as ultimate truth. The ultimate truth of them and them as ultimate truth. So then also to look for precepts

[01:01]

in other presentations, other things that are supposed to be presentations of ultimate truth. So these koans are like offerings of ultimate truth or offerings for the discovery of ultimate truth. So words are not usually considered to be ultimate truth. They're usually considered to be conventional things, like conventional speech. So conventional speech is not usually ultimate. But these are conventional speech offered kind of as examples or metaphors of ultimate truth. So how do you look at conventional things as doors to the ultimate meaning of themselves.

[02:06]

So this is a summary of what I've been going over and over with you this fall. What was the last thing you said? As doors to the ultimate meaning of themselves? As the ultimate meaning of themselves. So I was just thinking just before I came down that pre-Buddhist humans kind of made a discovery that Living in groups had certain advantages to living by yourself.

[03:14]

And so in that sense, even before Buddhism, people were kind of like going for refuge in the community. And also before the historical Buddha appeared, people already had the idea of going for refuge in community. They discovered. Maybe they didn't know they discovered, but they acted like they had discovered that going for refuge in community was kind of like a safer way of living than living outside the community. Horses also seem to have discovered this. And as you may know, people often speak of the horse society as a matriarchy because the older females discipline the community.

[04:17]

And if adolescent horses are misbehaving, the way they train them is to push them outside the group. until they start to act in accord with the precepts of the group, and then they're allowed to go for refuge again. So again, that's part of the Buddhist style, is that we have these precepts, one of them being to go for refuge in the community. And so one of the usual precepts requirements to be able to go for refuge in the community is to go for refuge in the community. To realize that the community supports you and you wish to support the community. You want to go for refuge in the community so you want to return to the community and you want to be protected by the community and you want to support that activity.

[05:18]

So that's one of the precepts. which if you're willing to receive and practice that precept, you're allowed to be in the community. If you don't want to be in the community, sometimes the community says, well, you don't have to be. It's okay. But if you want to be in the community, you should recognize that you want to be in the community and that you practice a returning to the community. We have in addition to that other precepts too. And if you want to be in the community, then part of it is to practice these precepts. And in some sense, it's been discovered by the ancestors. So we have the ancestors who have discovered that these precepts promote a safer, more peaceful life. So in some sense there are discoveries which now receive and meditate on the truth of them and that's the same with the discoveries which aren't put in terms of the Bodhisattva precepts but discoveries which are put in terms of other teachings like koans which we receive and meditate on and

[06:39]

and keep studying and learning how to study them so that we in some sense we express our faith that they might be true and also we practice them with in some sense the intention of understanding them deeper and deeper. It isn't just that we're following them because we think they might be true or but we're partly following because we think they might be true, but also following them and learning how to follow them so that we follow them in the same way that we study them. We study them by following them, by studying them. Studying them, questioning them, arguing about them can be part of following them. Expressing our doubt about them can be part of following them. Our doubt about the koans, or even our doubt that the koans are worthwhile studying, is studying the koan.

[07:49]

You're putting some energy in the koan even when you say you're questioning its validity. These are the topics. And then the other topics are, you know, what do you call it, suffering. But that's also one of the teachings, is that there's suffering. What's the truth of it? And there's some idea that suffering has conditions. Well, what's the truth of that? So again, we're oriented by studying suffering. Studying suffering expresses faith in or going for refuge in the Dharma. Because one of the things the Dharma says is that there's a truth of suffering. So again, questions about suffering? paying attention to suffering, exploring what it is, he's going for refuge in the Dharma, and so on.

[08:50]

The main thing is, can we remember to, can we remember in the Buddha, the Dharma, the Sangha? Can we remember to be devoted to the precept of not taking life? Can we remember to be devoted to the teachings of the ancestors and the stories of the ancestors? Can we remember that? And I would say, yes, we can. How do we remember? And what's the skillful way of remembering? How can we study? What's the skillful way of studying? How can we wonder? How can we follow? All these things. And so I would hope we can homogenize with the Zen stories. Because sometimes, you know, most people in the West were attracted to to Zen stories more than to stories of the Bodhisattva precepts, I would say, at least up till now.

[09:56]

Going for refuge in Buddha is not what Zen centers were attracted to. They're attracted to these wonderful stories, which are showing going for refuge in Buddha, but they don't say so, which is great. It's a great skillful means to draw people in through that gate. But now I want us to understand that These wonderful Zen stories are really narrative blossoming of going for refuge in Buddha. So again, people don't usually think of going for refuge in Buddha in terms of stories of enlightenment or... stories of reality, but I'm suggesting to look at them that way. So again, this is another turning of the wheel of summary, summary of this class. So I'd like to get more feedback from you.

[11:04]

I'd like to know if you're encouraged in your study of the precepts. I'd like to know if you have more doubts about the precepts than you used to or less, if you feel more enthusiastic about practicing them. And if you have any doubts or questions about it, that's great too. And another thing about this class which that I think was that it was pointed out that going for refuge in Buddha means is also, can be said, going for refuge and studying yourself. Did I say something like that here? Hmm? study yourself, even if you don't say you're going for revision Buddha, if the Buddha says, I accept, you know, I accept and support and I'm happy that you're studying yourself.

[12:09]

Even if you don't say I'm going for revision Buddha, you're really doing what it's about. And And so I think in a priest meeting this morning, somebody brought up about expressing yourself and simultaneously studying yourself while you're expressing yourself. So I would also say that going for refuge in Buddha is expressing yourself. When you go for refuge in Buddha, you're expressing yourself. if you go for refuge in Buddha and you miss that you're expressing yourself, you miss that you went for refuge in Buddha. I'd suggest that to you. Similarly, if you wholeheartedly express yourself, you wholeheartedly go for refuge in Buddha.

[13:17]

So again, I would... That wholeheartedly expressing ourselves is practicing the Bodhisattva precepts. That if you are wholeheartedly expressing yourself, you are practicing the Bodhisattva precepts. And if you wholeheartedly practice the Bodhisattva precepts, you are expressing yourself. And in order to wholeheartedly practice the Bodhisattva precepts, you have to study yourself. In order to wholeheartedly express yourself, you have to study yourself. If you are expressing yourself without being aware of yourself, this is not wholeheartedly expressing yourself. A big part of us is our ability to be aware of ourselves. We have this capacity. It's functioning. But if we don't practice it, if we don't perform it, we can miss it. All of us are aware of ourselves right now.

[14:25]

All of us are aware of our karmic consciousness right now. Our karmic consciousness is basically what we think is going on. But are you performing your awareness of what you think is going on? If you do, I would say you're wholeheartedly expressing your karmic consciousness. I would say you're moving towards realizing the Bodhisattva precepts. I would say you're going for refuge in Buddha. You're going for refuge in Dharma. I would say you're practicing not killing when you are aware and you're performing your awareness. Could you please set this on the floor? So is there anything you'd like to express to the group?

[15:30]

Any questions you have? Please come, Bri. I have a question. I was thinking about the full moon ceremony. I've heard the precepts expressed in different ways. I don't know if I have the exact wording, but I think I've heard it expressed as, I vow not to kill, I vow, etc. And also, a disciple of Buddha does not kill. And so I was kind of curious about sort of the language used in this, and I feel like they feel different when I say them.

[16:34]

I vow not to take life. A disciple of Buddha does not take life. And the precept of not taking life. So in the traditional, in the current and long-standing in Chinese, of these Bodhisattva precepts, When you come to the ten major precepts, it says the precept of not killing. That's what it says in the book. So in the ceremony, the way they do it in China is they would say the precept of not killing. There's no problem of vowing to practice that precept. But the way it's put in the original text is you're looking at the precept. In other words, you're looking at it kind of like a law.

[17:42]

It's like you're bringing up reality and looking at reality. Okay, there's a reality of not killing. Here's a reality of not stealing. And then Dogen's commentary in each one of these, he says something about... So here's the precept. And then he talks about the reality of this precept. He's not so much talking about the reality of your vowing to try to practice that, but he does say if you practice, he does say if you practice, the life of Buddha's wisdom grows. So it's fine to say, in fact, in a sense, when you're a disciple of Buddha, you do not take life. That's true. And so to saying that is true. To vow and to practice that is great. And then it's also, just look at the precept. So here's the precept.

[18:47]

And then again, it can be a comment, but just here's the precept. Here's the next precept. These are the precepts. These are the teachings for bodhisattvas. These are the ten major bodhisattva precepts. Now try to practice it. which might include, I vow to not kill, or I vow to practice this precept. Or to put it this way, if I were my disciple of Buddha, I don't go against this precept. I don't go against this precept, but the disciple doesn't go against it, and I would like to practice that way. And then the other one is the precept, the precept, the precept, the precept. That's the way the ten are originally stated. This group of the three pure precepts, they're stated differently in the original text. In that one it says, it's not the precept of forms and ceremonies.

[19:53]

The way it's put is, it's the precept... ...sustaining the forms and ceremonies. So that's the original text. There's a precept of embracing these forms. Now the forms, some of the forms, a big part of the forms are the ten major precepts. So there's a precept in the three pure precepts. The first precept of embracing the precepts. but not just those ten, but also the forms, the rituals, the ceremonies. So it's those ten plus all the rituals and ceremonies. So the first pure precept is the precept of embracing and sustaining, which you're going to say below and study below, to study them, to practice them, to give them life. The next one is all good. So the next precept is the precept of embracing and sustaining all good.

[20:56]

The next one is all beings, embracing and sustaining all beings. So this way, this original text doesn't go against it all, allowing to practice those ten precepts, but it does just say the precepts. But I think that because maybe it might feel cold A precept of not killing, maybe when we hear that, or when Suzuki Roshi and other people were first translating that, they thought, maybe we should suggest some relationship to these precepts, like a disciple of Buddha doesn't go against this precept. Some kind of like, there's a precept of not killing, and we don't do that one. We don't do killing. That not killing means we don't do that. or a disciple of Buddha doesn't do that. So he didn't translate it as, we don't break this precept because he knew we do.

[21:59]

And there's some stories about him apparently suggesting that people take life. Like there's a story about some flies at Tassajara where people thought he told them to kill the flies. So I didn't hear Suzuke Roshi say, we don't kill flies. So he and I said, disciples of Buddha don't kill flies. Disciples of Buddha don't take life. But maybe we're sometimes not disciples of Buddha. Anyway, there's a koan in there. There's a question about what's going on. But it does feel different just to say, precept of, precept of, or I vow not to go against that precept. or disciples of Buddha do not go against that precept. They have different feelings. And I think to get our whole being into the precepts, maybe we should say all these different ways. I vow not. I vow not. A disciple of Buddha vows not to.

[23:03]

A disciple of Buddha doesn't. And also the precept. What's the precept? What's the precept? What is this? All that together, I think, they're all, I think, potential. I feel good about all the different ways of saying it. And I think there are these different ways, some of which may at some days be more appealing than the other, but I think it's nice when, if you find an appealing way to deal with these precepts, it's nice to find another way. not to get in a rut about looking at them the same way over and over, and from different angles. Yeah, I think I have more trouble saying, I vow, than saying, a disciple of Buddha, because that seems more descriptive. Whereas the, I vow, I feel like I have to kind of hold myself to it. I mean, I'd like to say a disciple of Buddha, and then maybe I vow to try to be a disciple of Buddha.

[24:08]

But it's still just kind of language, I guess. And also in traditional ceremony, traditional means the pre-English translation ceremony, they say the precept, So the officiant, the preceptor says, will you receive these precepts? And the disciple says, yes. Here's the first precept, not killing. You want to receive this precept? Here's the first one, not killing. And then from now on and even after realizing Buddhahood, will you continue to observe this precept? Will you continue to think about this precept? Received. Yes, I will. The precept has been given to you. Now will you continue to observe it even after realizing the Buddha body?

[25:11]

Yes, I will. Here's the precept. Now you've received it. Will you continue to observe this? Will you take care of this? And even after being a Buddha, will you continue to take care of it? Yes, I will. So that's the original language. I feel like saying, I vow to think about it or I vow to take care of it is also, I mean, that's also like kind of another step. Yeah. Removed, it seems like. I don't know. Well, you're vowing. I vow. Yeah, but you are. The word vow. You're vowing. Well, you're vowing to think about it, but you can also say, I'll think about vowing. That's fine too. You could say, I'll think about it. But then we might say, well, maybe come back later for this ceremony. If you don't want to say yes, that's fine. If you don't want to say yes, I will, that's fine. But I think yes, I will includes yes, I will think about it.

[26:12]

Part of taking care of these precepts is to think about them, to learn how to think about them on a consistent basis. But if you're thinking about whether you think about them, that's nice too. That's pretty good. But sometimes you say, well, I thought about thinking about them all the time, and now I wish to commit to think about them all the time. I have no problem with thinking about them all the time. I'm not saying I'll be able to, but I commit to think about them all the time. I don't see any problem in that, other than that I probably will forget. I'll get distracted. But when I do think about them, I'm fine with that. But you still may not be ready to commit to that because if you commit to it and then you forget, you feel differently than if you forget and you haven't committed.

[27:14]

When you commit, you feel you've got more of a problem than before you commit. You've got new problems, I think. Some of your old problems are gone, though. Your uncommitted problems are gone. Your pre-commitment problem is over. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I just wanted to add to that. I think committing is different than promising. It is different than promising, but I would, you know, if you thought that when you committed you didn't promise, then I would say, do you promise? Well, okay, so the way I'm thinking of it, promising comes with a condition that one won't forget.

[28:22]

and that if one does forget, there's judgment and punishment. It's sort of like a Judeo-Christian, I promise, you know, to be a good God or whatever. Yeah, right, right. So... I mean, yeah, I understand you said that. Yeah. So... I like the way you said it, you know, I commit to it. That might not include that I'll always remember. Right, but the promise can be that way too. I promise, but you're right, that there will be more the meaning of, if I don't fall through with it, there will be consequences. Well, there would be consequences in either case. That's right. Even with commitment. But I just think it has a different cultural association. It does. But if you... The punishment you get when you do certain things is different from the punishment you get when you do certain things that you said you wouldn't do.

[29:31]

Or put another way, when you don't do certain things, the punishment you get is different from the punishment you get when you said certain things. So if you say, I will be true to you, and you promise, I think the promise means I'm open to some kind of punishment for not following through on my promise. I actually agree with you. You'd rather not tell this in public. I don't think the word, I don't think the concept of punishment is beneficial. You don't think the concept of punishment is beneficial, but you brought it up, didn't you? Weren't you trying to be beneficial when you brought it up? Uh, yeah. Yeah. But I brought it up to say, let's not talk, let's differentiate between, yeah, you know. I know what you're talking about, but I'm saying that commitment, I would say, if commitment, if commitment's a vow, if it's a vow, I would say, the highest level of vow, I say, is you're open to punishment.

[30:48]

Now, you don't think punishment is beneficial. And I'm not saying it's beneficial. I'm just saying the high, the most exalted promise is you're open to punishment, if there's any punishment. I don't know if there is any, but you're not privileged anymore. About the consequences. Okay, so I go with that. Okay. And... I think with punishment, with the concept of punishment, people may do things to avoid punishment as opposed to because of their commitment. People may do things to avoid... Do things or not do things in order to avoid punishment rather than for the positive inner motivation of what the commitment itself is about. I think it can skew the motivation. That's right. In a way that is not beneficial. Well, it skews it.

[31:52]

If they make the vow and then they're trying to avoid punishment, that can skew the following through on the vow. Quite commonly, people do not make the commitment because they're afraid of the punishment. And that kind of skews the commitment, too, into not happening. That's why I got up and said what I said. Yeah. And so... But there's something in our past, you know, where this comes from, where ancient people, vows, oaths, promises, they said, and if I don't follow through on this, I will cut a finger off. I'm not saying we should cut fingers off. Matter of fact, I had to stop somebody in a class here from that. That was Elenia who stopped it. I remember that. I'm just saying there's something in the background. You're committing to me? Yes, I am. Well, if you don't follow this commitment, would you be willing to give me a finger? Okay.

[32:53]

That kind of feeling of, yeah, yeah. It's a kind of a test of the commitment. Would you pay a price doing it? Now, Without fingers being cut or any kind of punishment, I noticed that, you know, and you could say it's because of Judeo-Christian, but anyway, I think it's pre-Judeo, I think it's pre-Judeo, this thing about when you really promise, you think you might, there might be some kind of thing come happening to you which wouldn't come if you don't promise. There's something about that, and there's something about opening to that that's involved here, and I'm not I'm not pushing you to commit more than you can, and I'm not going to punish you. And one difference between what you said is I don't feel that when people promise, that means that they think they're going to follow through. And when they promise, I don't think they're going to follow through.

[33:59]

And I still accept their promise, even though I don't... When I say I don't think they're following through, it doesn't mean I think they won't follow through either. I don't know what they're going to do. But I do know that once they promised, and if they promised openheartedly, I understand that most people who promise openheartedly, stintingly, that if they don't follow through in this promise, they will experience some pain. And so there is this thing of happiness is to make commitments. The greatest happiness is to make commitments to practice these precepts and practice them. That's the great happiness. The great pain is to make these commitments and not follow them. So... Are you equating that pain with punishment? No, not necessarily. No. It could just be that if you... If you love someone and you promise to love them and you don't do it, you can feel a real sharp pain and shame.

[35:06]

because you didn't do what you really wanted to do, and you still want to do, but you didn't do. That's the kind of punishment, or whatever you want to call it, that's the kind of consequence that can come when you make a commitment. Also, you make a commitment being open to that. I'll make a commitment, but I won't do it strongly enough so that it'll bother me if I don't follow through. No. I'll make the commitment wholeheartedly, and I know that I might experience pain if I don't follow through with this, and I don't know if I'll follow through. So some people say, since I don't know if I'll follow through, I don't want to commit. Because I think if I do, like now if I don't follow through on this stuff, I feel bad, but I think I'll feel worse if I promise, especially if I promise with all my friends watching. And so that's another part of it, which I mentioned before, is to make the promise deeper, it's good to have a witness of your friends and some of your, and especially your friends that you really respect, to have them watching you and witnessing it.

[36:11]

It makes it, well, it's the way that the people who have realized these precepts in the deepest way, that's the way they've gone. And these people tell stories of their pain, which you could call punishment, but I don't have to use that word. I don't need to bring that word up. But there's some pain as a consequence of not doing what we think, what we really think is most important. Did you want to say something, Sigrin, up here? Please come. Did you want to say something, Catherine? I think the pain is that when we are protecting and defending something, there's a self that rises up, and the pain is the selfing.

[37:22]

Yeah. Yeah. So it may be that if you promise to practice a precept there might be no pain if there were no selfing. But if there's no selfing, you would practice the precept. Right. So it's possible that you might practice some selfing, violating a precept, and there'd be no selfing and no pain, and then you'd realize the precept, and it wouldn't be painful. about the word, about... Yeah, self and like... Right, so like, there's a sense of this contiguous self happening, but you know, when you sit, you notice that it's constructing, like it's not actually, that it's a... that that's not what's happening, really, that there's a...

[38:39]

I think of it as like, you know those little dust devil things that happen on the sidewalk sometimes? I think of it like that, like there's like a little self that kind of comes together once around and then it disperses. And if you hold it, it hurts, more or less. And if you do that, you probably violated precepts. But if you feel the pain and then give that up, you realize the precepts. And so receiving these precepts helps us find these points of attachment. The word punishment feels like a big red herring to me. Yeah, well, we have a fish wanderer here who got us this herring. word promise.

[39:43]

It just comes with the word promise, yeah. And so at some Zen centers in the early days of transmitting from the West, the visiting, the Asian teachers came and they used the word promise and people and they didn't use the word promise anymore. They learned certain words that they get a big Judeo-Christian backlash on so they just stopped using the words and then they passed away and now in the next generation we're bringing them up again and see if we can with all that baggage that comes with them which is it's part of the deal how to deal with these words yeah well I just remembered another part of it for me when I read about this And it really freed me up. That's why I remember it.

[40:45]

So here comes another Red Herring word, which is the word failure. So if I make a commitment and I forget or fail, then I might be discouraged. To me that's in the same category of promising and punishment. Yeah. Commitment, it isn't about failing or not failing, it's just that this commitment is there. Yeah. It's just still there. Right, it's not about that. Even if what you wanted to happen doesn't satisfy you, it's just still right there. Right, that's right. It's not about, we're talking about committing to these precepts, it's not about success and failure. However, people are smart. And they know if they commit to these precepts that their success and failure demons will come out. If you don't commit to them, maybe they'll stay in the closet. So I don't want to... And not only success and failure, but once they're out there, you're going to have discouragement, etc.

[41:51]

So let's just keep the success and failure back there, good and evil back there. And I think if I don't promise or commit, they'll destroy us. And you know, they will. They'll stay back there quietly, and they will destroy us. They like to work from back there. That's where they can control us. But if you have commitments, success and failure, gain and loss, all this stuff will come out in front of you. Then we can make peace with them. With red and green herrings, you know, we can make peace with them and we can become free of them. And commitment is one of the ways to get this stuff out of the closet. Okay? You can stay here if you want. You can come up here. You can come up here too, Malvern.

[42:54]

What? What? What happened to you? That's what I'd like to know. I want to make some room. Catherine, you can come over here. Let Catherine come over here. Sit in Catherine's seat. Please come over here, Catherine. Thank you. Actually, I was going to bring up what Jane just brought up, but I was going to bring up a little additional part of that. It's what I had in mind. I brought up promise and commitment and vow. The difference that I was hearing was that promise is usually, the connotation I have for it, is that it's a one-time thing. Like I promise to meet you for lunch on Tuesday. And I either do it or I don't do it.

[43:56]

It's very clear. It's more black and white and cut and dried. It doesn't continue on and on and on. It feels more definite, like here's the time for it or the place for it, and it happens or it doesn't happen. Whereas commitment and vow have this ongoing life that allows for all this. That's your connotations. These are connotations, yeah. But I think they are not unique. But in this tradition, when we say vow, promise, oath, commitment, All those things are continuous processes. There's no question about that. They're continuous in Buddha Dharma. I promise to do this on that particular day. It's going to be continuous even after the day passes. That's right. Yeah. So I understand that. But I just feel there is this... That's a good point to remember.

[45:04]

That's why it says, you receive the precept, okay, from now on, and even after, and from now on and even after, this is a continuous process. Right? Yes. Right? Yes. Right? Continuous. Continuous. And not expecting... anything. And again, this is like, these are about reality, this is commitment to reality, to some way of acting. It's a commitment to reality. And we are being, being karmic consciousnesses, we get distracted. One other thing, I think punishment and pain have a common root. Pain have a common root? I think so. That was just a little point.

[46:06]

Yes, so I was wondering, I've been discussing this with people and I can't remember I have a good explanation or a good solution to it. So, because when you take the precept to say, I vow to take this precept, because the I is illusionary, like from the beginning, so how does this fit in with the whole the truth thing? The precepts are truth, but I is the I that I think of as I. There's no end to the answer to that question, but for now I would say you take this illusion called I and you toss it into the precept. You give this illusion as a donation to the precept. You don't just say, the precept shall reign. You know what I'm saying?

[47:21]

The precept shall reign. So from now on, will this precept be observed? You don't have to say I, right? From now on, will this precept be observed? Yes, it will. Just forget about the I, right? But now, if you've got an I, and give that to the precept. Give all of my illusions to the precepts. There's no I that's giving them. There's just giving the I. But let's not hold on to the I that's an illusion and eliminate that from the precepts by not saying it. And in Chinese it doesn't say I don't think in Chinese it says, I will. But I do think the teacher does say, will you? I think the teacher says in Chinese, practice these precepts.

[48:22]

And I don't think the person necessarily says, yes, I will. They just say maybe yes. Or, yes, will. But, you know, we want to integrate illusion with the reality of these precepts. We don't want illusions out of the process. We want to work them into the process and see if they can work in there without disturbing it. And also see if the process will illuminate the illusions. And including playing, leaving out the illusion sometimes, or forgetting them sometimes. Yeah, yeah, it sounds good. I was just thinking that, because you say, I vow to take all these precepts, and you do it like all day, every day, you do it like once, here at least, you do it once. thinking that maybe that could create some extra clinging to your eye?

[49:27]

It could, but most people that I know cannot cling any more to themselves than they're already doing. So it's not an extra burden in that sense? No. It's just helps them become more aware of their clinging. It gets the clinging out in the open. Yeah. I just don't see people getting more attached and more clinging when they make these vows. I just see them become more aware. Sounds good. But maybe some people do get more clinging than that much. Yeah. I see some people are really clinging who do not want to know how much they're clinging. Because when you first find out how much you're clinging, it's very embarrassing. Yeah. You know, you're like, oh my God, I'm so petty. You know? And so people sense, you know, if I would make those commitments, I would notice how much concern I have about following them. And if I don't commit to them, I think it just keeps quiet back there a little bit.

[50:32]

Yeah. So that's been my experience with myself and others, that I don't feel I'm any worse than I used to be. If I look carefully, before I committed the precepts, I did some horrendous things. So I don't think I've done any worse things afterwards than before, but I think I feel worse about them, plus I feel worse about the things I did before than I did when I did them. When I did them, I sometimes really didn't feel that bad about them. I wouldn't have been able to do them if I felt bad about them. I was really mean to one of my roommates before I came to Zen Center. I was really cold to him. I can't believe how cold I was to him. I didn't yell at him or hit him or steal from him or... But I was really... I closed my heart to him. And I look back, I just can... But I didn't notice it before, obviously, but I noticed it after.

[51:35]

And other things too, other terrible things I did, I noticed after. And it's not fun to notice them. It's terrible, terrible what I did, but the precepts helped me be aware of them. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. And some people might say, you know, I feel bad about any worse things about myself. I don't want to take these precepts on. I'd say, well, okay. later maybe. Maybe some people have to learn how to love themselves more before they can stand the self-revelations that come. So that's fine. Let's learn how to do certain kinds of kindness to ourselves before we enter into this into this intensity of commitment.

[52:37]

Somebody who is really mean to themselves. You know, they're just demonstrating over and over that they're really intensely into being really rough on themselves. I might not bring up making this commitment. I might just try to get them to be kinder to themselves. Or if they were thinking about the commitment, I might say, let's wait a while on that. Let's work on this other stuff first. In the Bodhisattva practice, before the precepts comes giving, before ethical commitment comes giving. Now, giving is ethics too, of course. But it has a different feeling, you know, than commitment to these precepts. So some people should practice giving a lot and being generous and then go into the ethical training phase. Can you talk about the paramitas?

[53:43]

Can you? No, is that what you're talking about just now, the paramitas? Yeah, yeah. First is giving, next is precepts. Melbourne? I mean, myo-yu? It's great having a teacher. I've never been so insulted in my life. Oh, you've got a lot to learn, mate. Please teach me how to be funny. No. So... It's just the failure thing and the punishment thing. I think failure is a really positive thing. I see it as being really positive because it means I'm trying something. I find it impossible to think of a way of failing something. So I think it's sort of really positive.

[54:44]

That sounds like you're willing to let failure out in the open. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. If you're willing to have it in your life, you know, it can be harmless. If you're not willing to have it in your life, it's very powerful. And the punishment thing, in my experience, mainly punishment is, if it's me punishing myself, then I'm sort of deluded about what's going on. And I'm not really... I'm just sort of... I'm not really aware of what's going on. I'm just going, oh, it's my fault, my fault. And if it's somebody else who's punishing me, they're definitely deluded, because I very... I very rarely have deserved any of the punishment. Well, I've never deserved any of the punishment anybody's given me.

[55:47]

And... So I sort of think that punishment is sort of a discussion, I think. What did you say before? Originally you said, when I punish myself, what did you say? When I punish myself... I'm deluded. Yeah, right. So when you're punishing yourself, you get to see that you're deluded. You don't. Well, you do, though, because you know. You understand that when you're punishing yourself, you're deluded. So punishment is one of the ways we find out we're deluded. And it's good to find out that you're deluded, because you are. And punishment is one of the ways you find out. And you do want to find out, but you're busy with other things. So, you know, maybe later.

[56:48]

So your insight that when you're being punished, you're deluded, that's right. So punishment, the illusion of punishment, helps you realize you're deluded. And the other part, though, I don't agree with, I agree with that part, but the other part of when other people are punishing you, I forgot what you said, but... They're deluded. No, they're not necessarily... Some people have punished me And they were like, they may have been deluded, but their punishment was enlightened. And it was enlightening because I knew the deluded person was temporarily a wrathful Buddha. So sometimes when I'm being punished, I'm not saying when you're being punished, but when I've been punished sometimes, it really woke me up. Especially when I knew that the person was loving me. And you know there's stories of somebody beating you up and saying, I'm doing this for your own good, it's because I love you and so on. But I'm talking about when the person wasn't saying, I love you and this is for your own good.

[57:53]

Just sometimes punishment... And I actually said to somebody just the other day that I have never, in this lifetime, I have never been harmed. I've only misunderstood. But that doesn't mean people should harm people, except harming me, of course, different. But I'm not saying you should harm people so that they can realize that they've never been harmed. I'm just saying I have thought I'd been harmed, and then I moved into a phase where I realized that the harm was love, but I still love them. And I accepted, well, this is the way these people have to love me now, in this way. But it's love. Love is real. Everything else is an illusion.

[58:55]

So I... This is a tricky thing to say, but that's how I feel. I feel like I have not been harmed in this life from the beginning till now. I feel like I haven't been harmed. And I know that's inviting some people to try to harm me to see if I can say, yes, thank you to that. But that's I want to be practicing thank you for what is given to me, even though it sometimes is I hate you, you're lying, you know, blah, blah, blah, and it's being said with fierceness. However, I think, I really think that people who are trying to hurt me are really just trying to contact me. I think so. People who seem to be trying to hurt me, I think they're really just trying to contact me. But they just... And they couldn't see that they're making contact, so now they're trying in this fierce way, or even trying to hurt me, so that we can have contact.

[60:09]

But that's really not hurting me. It's painful, but it's not harming me. It's making me more alive. So I kind of, I feel, I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm just saying I feel differently about other people harming, punishing me. And if I'm punishing myself, I think I feel like I agree with you. That reminds me I'm deluded, which I think is good for me to remember that I'm deluded. They have karmic consciousness. It's good to remember that because for ascension being to be ascension being is enlightenment. Yes? I still think... Yes, you do. You really do. Please continue. Even though you love the people... who punished you in some way, they were deluded in the way that they tried to love you.

[61:18]

Yeah, they were. That's sort of like, you know, the people who tried to love me were deluded in the punishment of me. Yeah, yeah. And the people who were kind to you were also deluded. Yeah. But sometimes when you don't notice that you're deluded, you think, I think I'm right. Everybody's kind to me. I think actually, although they may or may not be deluded, I'm not. And they're kind of like going along with that very nicely. Thank you. And that sometimes is fine. That sometimes is fine when people go and feed us into not being aware that we're deluded. That sometimes is good because then later, They can help us even more. But again, I'd like to be able to use delusion, self-delusion, and I'd like to be able to use awareness that beings are deluded without in the slightest bit reducing our love of them or our love of ourselves.

[62:43]

And again, I have this wonderful experience of having this little boy in my life who is so deluded and he was deluded from early on, and I noticed that I could see that he was completely deluded, and that did not at all reduce my appreciation of him. So he really helped me understand that you can understand somebody's deluded and totally be devoted to them and not hold that against them at all. Because sometimes people are afraid to admit that somebody's deluded because they that they'd be less devoted to them, since they're like, this is just a deluded person. Somehow that should not degrade this phenomena at all in terms of our respect for them. You can respect them even though you realize this person is totally cockeyed, totally adamantly saying that they're not cockeyed, and totally

[63:48]

an object of complete compassion. So he really helped me with that. Helped me see that it is possible to love deluded beings. Because sometimes people feel like, well, this person's deluded. You shouldn't love them when they're deluded, when they're like totally crazy. You shouldn't love them. That's too much. They're just too crazy. Don't love them. Wait until they're a little less crazy and then love them. Yeah, but it never occurred to him to stop loving him when he was wacko. And you can see why he was. But at night when he would go into this thing called getting tired, and if you see it coming and you get him to brush his teeth and get his pajamas on and get in bed, then he falls apart. and goes to sleep. But if he's standing up, you know, with his day clothes on, and he falls apart, it's very difficult to get his clothes off, or to get in and brush his teeth, because he's like trying to stand up at the same time he's falling apart.

[64:57]

And he's terrified, you know. So you just have to understand this is So you missed your opportunity. You know, now you got a crazy, huh? Yeah, or go through what you went to go through, either way. But he's just falling apart. It's just this whole world is crashing. And that's just the way it is. And it doesn't mean you stop loving him. but you do realize he's just total wreck. And it's easier on him if he goes to bed a little earlier and then falls apart right around the time when he's going to let go of his to this thing called sleep. But sometimes when we see adults that are doing that who are getting fatigued and they're falling apart and they're kind of going... Sometimes we think, well, you don't have to love them when they're acting like that. Well, you don't have to, but it would be good if we did.

[65:59]

Even though it's really horrendous what they're doing. So somehow we have to learn that. As Bodhisattvas. Isn't it wholeheartedly deluded when he's doing that? There's something very, very lovable about that. It's so what it is. Well, again, yeah, that's right, that's what you're loving, is you're loving the wholeheartedness, and to be able to see that adults are being wholehearted, that's what we want to learn to see. And be wholehearted but not realize that they are, and that's part of the deal, too. Thank you again, Bos. When you said that you had an experience of feeling like you were being harmed and then realizing that you misunderstood.

[67:17]

To me, that occurs to me with this idea of being a victim, like holding on to the fact that I'm this victim of harm. Looking back at times when I felt as the victim of harm, like, maybe this person doesn't trust me and I want their trust. It would be kind of, you know, it was like I wanted things to be different. Yeah, right. We do. We want things to be different. We want things to be not the world where people are not supporting us. We want them to be a world where people are supporting us. And we have karmic consciousness which tells us a story that in the past people were not kind to us, people were not skillful with us, people were not supportive. We have that story, and we would like things to be different. And I'm suggesting that by the way those stories can change.

[68:22]

We can change the past. And some people say, I don't want to. I don't want to change it if that person didn't harm me. to that person was what? They were deluded, maybe. They were wholehearted and didn't realize it. They were terrified, and they did this stuff. And, you know, now I'm a bodhisattva looking back at myself when I wasn't, and when I couldn't understand what this person, who this person was, and I couldn't see their wholeheartedness, and I couldn't see their beauty, and now I can. Plus, I see a Things between that one, from that time up to here, a whole bunch of other examples are also taken care of. So the way of practicing in the present changes our past. Usually we're trying to practice in the present to change our future, which is fine. But I'm talking about practicing in the present that changes the past. and takes away this, makes the past like we're practicing in the present, practicing the present in such a way that the past becomes the same without changing the story at all.

[69:37]

One thing that the past seems to help me do is, in this moment, I'm thinking, wow, I still want that person's support, and I can imagine situations in which that person can totally just pull their support. And so that puts me in touch with the fact that that hasn't changed, that it's a constant. So I guess maybe it could be helpful to look at those past situations be kinder to myself, learn how to love the being deluded or learn how to bring a better understanding out so that I can actually bring it into another situation. Without that, I feel really guarded about things. Right, exactly. Without that, you feel guarded. And the key point is to be kind to yourself. in the present.

[70:44]

Be kind to yourself in the present. And if you can be kind to yourself in the present, that will change the past and the future. Being kind to yourself in the present is part of realizing being kind to you in the present. Some people are not being kind to themselves or to others and still they correctly understand that they're being supported, and they almost feel thankful. But they still don't understand it. That they're kind to themselves, that they're being kind to themselves, and that they're being kind to others. Some people, even though they don't feel, they don't want to be kind to others, they don't feel like they're trying to be kind to others, and they don't want to be kind to themselves, and they don't feel like they want to be kind to themselves, still, they sometimes see. Still, they sometimes see. Anyway. and just goes, hello.

[71:46]

And they see somebody's being kind to me. And I'd never been kind to anybody. And nobody's ever been kind to me before. They still get a glimpse. So we do need help. Show us what it is. Once you see it, then little by little you realize that all the people besides that one person who I don't think are being kind to me, if I would be kinder to them, I would eventually see they're being kind to me. If you're really wholeheartedly kind to other people, you will see they're kind to you. Even though they don't realize it. Even though they would say, I'm trying to be mean to you. So I basically say, if you can't see that people are being kind to you, be kinder to yourself and to them. And if you can't see they're being kind to you yet, you're not being kind enough to them. And you can't get them to be kinder to you. probably. But you can be kinder to them and when you're kind to them wholeheartedly you will realize that they're being as kind to you as they can be given how deluded they are.

[72:54]

And for a deluded person to be unkind to you is their kindness. But it's kindness. They're giving to you. The reality is they're giving to you. They're being kind to you. That's the reality. That's the precept. The precept is not taking. The precept isn't... The reality is that things are being taken. The precept is given and received. If you don't get that, practice that precept. Practice giving... Practice giving and practice giving and you will see that everybody's given to you. If you don't see it yet, give more. And give more means be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself until you can start being kind to others. And when you can be kind to others,

[73:56]

And there's still something in the past. You can't see the kindness? Be more kind to others right now. Right now. Be kind to yourself more and more and more. And your past will change. Not just yours, but their past will change too. You will make them into a good person. Some people say, I don't want to make them into a good person. I want them to stay. cruel person. And I don't want to practice in such a way that they get relieved and saved from their past evil. No. This way you will save the people who are mean to you. In a sense, is that taking? In a sense, if you have that intention, would that be considered taking? Taking away their evil? No, I mean... I'm wondering if their being unkind to you is giving? Like you said, in a way it was giving? Yeah, but you couldn't see it at the time. And when we feel like people are not supporting us, we feel terrible. If being supported was reality, if being unsupported was reality, then we should be happy with being unsupported.

[75:04]

But we're not happy with being unsupported. That's because it's not true. We're happy with being supported because it's true. The Buddha's teaching is dependent, co-arising. We support each other to arise. We support ourselves to cease. It's not by not supporting each other that we arise. So giving is reality. Stealing is unreality. The precept, that's the thing. But we don't see it sometimes. So if we don't see it, practice it. First of all, remember it. Start practicing it and practice towards yourself until you can practice it with others. Or practice with others until you can practice with yourself. Some people cannot do it themselves. Okay, practice with others. I can't do it with others either. Okay, practice with yourself. Can't do it either way. Okay. Practice it with yourself. Oh, okay. Let yourself be a total failure at practicing giving.

[76:07]

Okay, it's discouraging, but let yourself be discouraged. That's kind. If you're feeling discouraged, it's kind to let yourself be discouraged. So anyway, I'm betting that if anybody's not being generous with me, or if I'm not being generous with somebody, the medicine for that is being generous. And I'm betting that that will change all the past or your past. So is that changing their karma? Yes. It's changing their karma. Zante first. Zante, you were... Stay there. So that's the problem. Come up here, please. Yeah, well, you just never get called in there.

[77:11]

You have to fight for your place. Here's your place. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Protecting you from my... You're ignoring me. Yeah, right. First of all, I want to thank you for the image of the wrathful Buddha. I absolutely love him. And that was... Wrathful. Wrathful Buddhas. They're actually called wrathful deities, but they actually look like deities. No, I think that... They look ugly. That's good. I like ugly. They wake us up. I just wanted to tell you that the way I've been experiencing the conversation that's been going on these past weeks in class about the...

[78:17]

sort of manifesting reality and being truth. And then tonight, when you presented the image of the wall as it would be communicated in Chinese, and that was sort of a reenactment of there's this thing, this object, So to me it's not so much about making promises and commitments, but rather the wall and looking at it until you see through it. There's this image that I've had for years. Once in class we were studying mythicism, hemo-mythicism, The subject came up about blindsight, which is a condition, it's actually a neurological condition where the person afflicted, it's not that they're blind, they can see, but they

[79:37]

They don't know what they're seeing. They can't identify the meaning of what they're seeing. And that image has haunted me ever since. And so I began to think, these past few weeks. It was sort of like that for me in terms of thinking about the precepts because they've been so familiar for so long. And it was hard for me to understand how they could be manifesting reality because it was always something that I should be striving toward. And So all of a sudden it appeared that the precepts were these mysteries and that trying to solve the mystery, trying to look into them, created a kind of, suddenly it began to open up and there was this

[80:52]

attention and feeling of necessity. Again, it wasn't about am I a good girl or a bad girl, you know, am I doing right or wrong? But there was something happened in that transition where they became, this is what's, this is the necessity. And And that's just where I'm at right now. It's not that I can go any further with it, but that's where the discussion has taken me. So I don't feel burdened by promises or commitment or punishment or grace at the moment. I just feel that there is this reality of something from me, and I don't know whether I can get it or not.

[82:08]

Okay. But it's flown to me. So commitments are... Our vows, I would say, elevate our karmic consciousness. They aren't really a burden. They lift up your karmic consciousness for illumination. Temporarily, you might feel like it's a burden. Really, the promise thing is to lift your karmic consciousness up, make it clearer. It's connected to desire. I still feel desire when I put element in all of this. Yeah. Making the vow, usually you wish to make the vow. You want to make the vow.

[83:09]

And sometimes you do make the vow, and then sometimes you want to make it again. I think what I'm arguing is that the vow is unnecessary once... You're saying the vow is... Unnecessary once you understand that it is a necessity that transcends making the vow. Maybe for Buddhas, vows are necessary. But bodhisattvas, it's like that's what carries them forward, is the vows. They need vows. That's how they move forward on the path. I move forward through desire. That's fine. I did take the vows, but... You can move forward through desire. I have no problem with you moving forward by desire. I'm just saying bodhisattvas move forward in vows, on commitments.

[84:19]

Are you implying then that I can't move forward? Can you speak louder, please, Bodhichitta? Would you project your voice? Okay, I'm not going to project on that one. Anyway, she said she was moving forward by desire. She felt like she was moving forward by desire, and I'm happy to hear that. I'm just saying bodhisattva is moving forward with vows. So I have no chance of being a bodhisattva. If you refuse to make vows, you still have a chance that you can change tomorrow. Vows are necessary, though, when you get into a place of mystery. Your desires may, what do you call it? Occlude your vision. Or they may take you away from the direction you're going. They may distract you.

[85:25]

Whereas the vow you keep doing, even though it doesn't make any sense anymore, you continue it. So the main thing is bodhisattvas are vowed to help beings even when they can't find any. Most people, when they can't find something, they stop doing it. But bodhisattvas keep being devoted to beings after they know that they can't be found because of the vow. Otherwise, they might say, well, it's not necessary anymore to help these people because they can't be found. But we don't want Bodhisattvas to stop caring for beings that can't be found. That's why we need the vow. So the vow gets them to realize that and keeps them working for these beings that they know they can't find when they're quite advanced in the practice. We don't want to lose the most advanced practitioners to emptiness. So it's fine for you to desire and to love and you'll move forward with that love. But at some point you're going to need the vows to be a bodhisattva.

[86:27]

Bodhisattvas have vows in addition. Bodhisattva's want is to benefit beings. They do. So if you want to benefit beings, you're like a bodhisattva. But they also have vows. You need vows so that you won't stop practicing when you realize there's no practice can be found. And also when you realize no practice can be found, that's what keeps you from pooping out. Realize that no beings can be found because then you don't get tired being devoted to them. If you think you can find them, you get, you know, you get burnout. So when you can't find them anymore, you're not going to get burnout anymore. But also if you don't have the vow, because there aren't any. So you have to be kind of, this miracle thing has to happen to keep you going.

[87:29]

And the vow is kind of the, The vow together with emptiness is this miracle called the Mahayana miracle of being devoted to beings that you know you can't find. Taking beings to nirvana when there's no beings to take to nirvana. That's why we need to vow. Otherwise we veer away from living for beings. It's a tricky point. We can go into more detail on this if we keep living. for your wholeheartedness. Thank you for your wholeheartedness.

[88:06]

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