I've heard the Buddha way described as, in essence, detachment. I've heard the Buddha way is basically Leaping. Basically leaping. Hearing these two descriptions or these two expressions about what the Buddha way, how the Buddha way is, I said what the Buddha way is, but if I say what the Buddha way is, then if the Buddha way is essentially detachment, it keeps detaching from whatever I say it is, but also it keeps leaping from anything I say about it or anything I tell you I've heard about it.

[01:23]

It keeps leaping clear of what I say it is or isn't. The Buddha way keeps leaping clear of everything. It's detached from everything. And it's also, of course, detached from detachment. So being detached, it also means to fully engage. It's leaping clear, it's detachment, but also detachment or leaping clear is the Buddha way. So that's kind of it, pretty much.

[02:31]

Let's just have some detachment from anything that doesn't accord with leaping. And let's have some leaping. Or another way to put it is the Buddha way is the way things are, and the way things are is that we're actually leaping right now. We're leaping. we're leaping clear of attachment. And because of detachment, we can leap clear. That's actually going on, but we don't necessarily see that. And if I don't see that, if I feel like I'm not detached, then I actually might feel somewhat scared of leaping. Good examples usually occur on the way to the lecture hall.

[03:39]

So as I'm coming down here, my grandson said he was going to come with me. And he said, I'm going to go in and sit behind you. So he actually got dressed and he started coming after Sarah and I as we were walking down here. But he kind of lagged behind. And then I looked back and he was by the office and he He got shy. He looked kind of shy. He wasn't sure he actually wanted to come into the room and sit up here with me. He sometimes did that before, but he didn't do it today. But I actually was intending before I came to talk to you about leaping clear, so I thought, here's a good example for leaping clear, for me to not try to stop him from coming in here. and being here with me and doing whatever he was going to do.

[04:42]

I thought some people might be offended, possibly, by a five-year-old or a five-and-three-quarter-year-old coming and participating in the way I was sitting on this seat. But I thought, well, this is what I want to talk about. I want to talk about letting people participate in the leaping. You probably heard that expression, audience participation. If I'm talking about leaping, then the audience needs to participate.

[05:49]

In the tradition of the Buddha way, we actually have some different vehicles that we speak of. One of the vehicles actually is the audience vehicle. It's the vehicle of the audience or the vehicle, sometimes we say, of the listeners or the hearers. And there's another vehicle called the vehicle of the bodhisattvas. The bodhisattva vehicle, however, is not the vehicle, or I should say I put it positively, the bodhisattva vehicle is the vehicle of participation. It's the vehicle of participating in what's happening. Are you participating in what's happening or are you the audience of what's happening? So I propose to you that what's really happening when you're listening, for example, when you're hearing, when you're being an audience, you're able to hear only because you're entirely part of what you're hearing.

[07:29]

what are you hearing? You're hearing me talk? Or, yeah, what are you hearing? You're hearing, I don't know, you're part of what you're hearing. You're hearing mechanical waves in the room bouncing off your ear, stimulating your nerves, giving rise to thoughts. And everybody else in here is doing that? We're able to hear because we're part of this, of what's happening here. We're part of mechanical waves bouncing among us. I think if you say taste, if we say that when we taste something, I think we're maybe able to see that when we taste something, it's because we participate with what we're tasting that we can taste it.

[08:46]

If you eat something, you can see that your way of tasting it is because you're participating with it. You put it in your mouth and you do something with it. You interact with it. and then you have this experience of taste. Without participating in the food, we usually don't taste it. But it's the same with sound or hearing. Hearing humans speak, hearing the sound of the wind, we don't hear it unless we participate in it, but we often miss the participation. We often think we're just listening. and only receiving, but not giving. Last time I talked here, I spoke about this leaping

[10:00]

And I said that there's an expression that in the subtle round mouth of the crisis, in the subtle round mouth of the turning point, the spiritual work comes alive. And again, I'm bringing up where's this pivot, where's this turning point right now where spiritual life comes alive? Where is it? Is it in the room for you? Is it outside the room? Where in the room is the pivot? Where is the crisis point of our life right now? Where is the place where you turn, where you leap, where you're free of attachment.

[11:03]

Someone pointed to his chest, touched his chest. Where is the point of audience participation? It just occurred to me that me wearing an amplifier may be a kind of a challenge to realizing audience participation. Perhaps I should share it with someone or take it off.

[12:17]

At the thought of sharing it many people cleared their voices, getting ready to speak just in case. Is it your turn to turn? Again, I propose we're turning, actually, and the Buddha way is to become aware of the turning. That we are. The Buddha way is to realize what we are, and what we are is that we're turning and leaping. We're leaping at the turning point. The turning point is where we leap into freedom from the appearance that we're not leaping. It looks like we're not leaping.

[13:25]

We have some idea what leaping looks like. It looks like we're not leaping. That didn't look like much of a leap, probably. And it wasn't a leap, but there was leaping that allowed me to move like that. And leaping allows you to keep living. I say that to you. What do you say? When I was young, I was sometimes quite calm and quiet.

[14:30]

My mother was not so calm and quiet most of the time. And she actually used to take me with her to help her calm down. And I enjoyed going with her. She'd take me to tea parties where there were other women, generally in their late 20s and 30s, having tea and cake, and one little boy sitting there quietly next to his mother. And he would sit there until it got late, and then they would take him upstairs to a bedroom and he would get into bed with all the ladies' coats and go to sleep in the ocean of perfume. And then I would be awakened and taken home and told that all the ladies thought I was a very good boy because I sat quietly.

[15:36]

But it recently occurred to me that I was calm in the face of my mother's anxiety and my mother's agitation. And that was a way that I dealt with the constantly changing, the constantly changing, impermanent chaos of life with my mother. And as I grew up, I wanted to find something more than just calm in the face of chaos and change. Something more than just being calm in the face of it. And now I'm trying to find a way to be calm in relation to it or to calmly participate with the chaos.

[16:46]

of everything I meet, of the impermanence and instability and fragility and vulnerability of every experience, that every experience brings with it. Not to hold myself calmly away from the center of that chaos. At that crisis point, where the leaping occurs. As I was coming to this talk and the little boy was following me, I was feeling chaos a little bit. I was feeling the impermanence of a little boy coming with me and what would happen if he came in here with me. I was opening to, trying to open to the danger of bringing him with me.

[17:54]

But I was trying to open to it. What is, the Buddha way is in accord not just with, the Buddha's teaching is that things are impermanent, unstable, unreliable. It's proposing a way that's in accord with things being unstable. a way that doesn't attach to unstable things but accords with them, that opens to them and shows a way for others to open to it.

[19:01]

But I did feel some anxiety at the idea of him coming with me and some relief when he gradually seem to not be coming. And now it looks like he's not going to come. So you don't have to worry about him being here and neither do I. I don't have to worry about offending you by this uncontrolled element in the room. I'm being good, aren't I? He was just that sad, throwing pebbles on the roof. Really? Well, he did his part. So who wants to be the grandson now? You do? Please.

[20:20]

He was down in the field the night before last where the children's play area is and it started to get dark. And he said to his grandmother, it's getting dark. She said, yes, it is. And he says, what about the ML? And she said, what? He said, the mountain lion. Well, Mountain Green Gulch has mountain lions. So I came down, and as I was coming down, they were leaving because of the ML. But then when I got there, he thought having two grandparents was safe enough. So we went back into the dark. There are animals, apparently, in this world.

[21:35]

We sometimes see them and hear them growl. How's the audience participation? Are you happy with your level of participation? You're relaxing? You're laughing? Yeah. You're laughing and listening? Anybody crying? Good. Oh, there he is. Come on in. That was him. But it's too poignant for me to tell you.

[22:55]

the Buddha way is basically leaping. The Buddha way accords with the leaping that's going on. The Buddha way doesn't make leaping. The Buddha way accords with the leaping. Are you aware Is your heart in accord with the leaping? Is somebody coming into the room? It's my, it's my, it's my G. Do you want to sit up here?

[24:29]

This is my G. His name is Maceo. When I heard you say the Buddha way is leaping, I had an image of beautiful frogs leaping all over the place.

[26:36]

Beautiful green frogs leaping all over the place. Leaping frogs are the Buddha way, and leaping people are the Buddha way. And leaping lions are the Buddha way. Can you feel? Can you sense? Can you understand the leaping? I can understand the danger. There is danger and impermanence all around the leaping. And the leaping even is impermanent.

[27:38]

Or at least the form of the leaping is impermanent. But there's always a chance of leaping no matter what our condition, There's always a chance of leaping. What? It is effort. It doesn't take, it receives effort. It's infused with effort. It's the essence of effort. Do you feel effort being given to you now? Are you receiving the gift of effort and enacting it? You're always leaping.

[28:39]

You're always leaping. The Buddha way is the way you always are, the way we always are. We're always leaping. It's always the Buddha way. The Buddha way is the way we are. But do we notice it? If we're attached to anything, if we're closed to anything, we close our eyes to the leaping. For example, we might right now be attached to what leaping looks like and closed to this being leaping. We may be attached to some idea of what the Buddha way is. Like the Buddha way is not for him to have his grandson sitting there with him. That's not the Buddha way. Buddha way is just one man, one white man, sitting on a high seat, talking to people about the Buddha Way. That's the Buddha Way. Or maybe it could be a black man, or maybe it could be a green woman, but certainly there shouldn't be a grandson sitting next to that person.

[29:48]

You know, we're always leaping. The Buddha way is the way we always are. It's a matter of becoming aware of it. And not aware of it as an object, but aware of it like you know you're living it. You're certain. You can't grasp the leaping because you're leaping. A leaping person can't grasp leaping. A person who's not leaping can't grasp leaping. But leapers can leap. Leapers can be a leaper. And you are, I am, we are. And we're afraid of it too if we have any attachment to how it will look. So I've told my grandson about ripping these robes. So be gentle, okay, with the rope.

[30:54]

Thank you. Yeah. That was gentle. That was gentle. You did that gently. Thank you. You asked earlier, where's the turning point? And is that a question with an answer, or is that a question with a skew? I asked, where is the turning point? You think I asked that? Yeah? And so do you have a response to that? Should you look for an answer to it? Well, actually, I would look for the place. Keep looking for where is the turning occurring? Where is the turning? Where is the place where you turn and leap? You know, to tell you the truth, I don't like answering it.

[32:05]

I like responding to it. Because answering, you might stop looking. Okay, I found it. That's it. It would be like, keep responding to the question. Where is the place of turning? Where is the place where the spiritual life lives? It lives at a turning place. And I think it lives at the place where impermanence and chaos and danger are all around, and there's constantly the opportunity of leaping and realizing the Buddha way. Realizing the way of participating with everybody, realizing the way of audience participation, you as a member of the audience, but also you as being the whole audience, participating in the whole audience supporting you to participate. that place. Don't answer it and stop. Always look for where is the crisis point in life. I'm trying to make a good name for crisis.

[33:05]

Because crisis means turning point. Where is the turning point? It isn't like, in the Buddha way, it isn't like turning points happen once in a while. In the Buddha way, every moment is a turning point. Our life never dies It's always turning and changing. Can we accord with that? Can we be open to that? I say yes. Thank you. I say yes, you say no. How's the turning going?

[34:18]

Well, let's see. It's actually, you know, one could stop now and move on with one's life. This is fun. I have this, you know, kind of like a story. What? He said be quiet. He said be quiet. He said be quiet. My grandson told me to be quiet. But I'm leaping clear of that instruction.

[35:50]

He often puts me in a prison. We were at the L.A. Zoo, and he said, if a Buddhist master saw what a terrible job you're doing, he would fire you. Gentle, gentle. Should I stop talking now? Is that okay? How about sing? Should I just sit here and take it? How about singing? I beg for it. This is what I was hoping for. I was hoping for a little bit more time with this guy. And it was given to me.

[36:58]

And then I got to live it And yeah, and I appreciate that I asked for this. Do you realize that you've asked for this? Or do you think this was given to you and you didn't request it? That's not audience participation. And I'm requesting you. I invited you and I invited him and we're all getting what we invited. Are we enjoying the responsibility for that, or with that? Did you tell me to be quiet? Good advice. Huh? Did he want to speak? Do you want to speak? What would you like to say?

[38:01]

I don't want this to stay anymore. You don't want them to stay anymore or you don't want to stay anymore? I don't want this to go anymore. You want us to end it now? I want it to end now. Okay. What do you say, folks? Is it okay to end it? Can I ask him to do something before we stop? Yeah. Would you please take care of the Buddha way? Which is basically leaping. Would you please? Even... No? You won't? Yes, you will. You do a really good job of leaping. You're a good leaper. Good skipper, you mean.

[39:02]

Yeah, okay. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. Thank you for me being able to come. Okay. Everyone may leave. May our intention equally extend to every being and place, with and without this way. Beings are none other than sky and earth. If you want to turn, then you need a turning point.

[40:23]

And that's what a crisis is. It's a turning point. Would you give me an invoice for the wood you bought? Would you give me an invoice for the wood you bought? Okay. Thank you. Is there anything you'd like to discuss besides wood and and Trees and children? Yes? This is a crisis. Could you speak about it, if you did, connected to meditation on the other dependent? Is that what it is? Is there some connection? Is there some connection between meditation on interdependence and... You've often said other dependent. Yeah. It seemed like the fragility that you were speaking about, it might be the connection. Right.

[41:25]

So when I am very aware of my fragility or my vulnerability, when I'm very aware of how I'm vulnerable to death and illness, and various kinds of falling apart, when I'm aware of that, that if I'm willing to be aware of how I'm vulnerable and impermanent, if I'm open to that, then I also can open to how I'm interdependent. So my interdependence is related to my fragility. But if I'm closed to my fragility, then I close to interdependence. And the place where I, a lot of the time, I or other people are closed to our, to our fragility, to our, to how dangerous every step we take is, we're closed to that.

[42:32]

But if we close to that, we close to interdependence. And when I open to fragility, when I open to the danger of every moment, when I open to all the risks that I'm surrounded by, then there's a possibility of a turning. a turning from the view that I'm separate from other people, a turning or a leaping from the world where I'm separate from other people, where I'm independent, to leap into the actual life of interdependence or to open to my anxiety about my interdependence, about my independence. or my anxiety about being overwhelmed, or my anxiety about being visited by death and illness, to open to that, not be afraid of it, but open to it, then I also open to interdependence.

[43:42]

So I think they're right. The crisis is the place where you turn from ignoring to not ignoring. Crisis means it is a turning point. If you're ignoring interdependence, which most people do ignore, if you face the crisis of the moment, if you face the dangers, you're also open to the dangers, you're open to the opportunities of understanding what you're usually ignoring. So there's a possibility of turning from ignorance to seeing, or from ignorance to understanding. from ignoring to not ignoring. So, when you have a strong sense of impermanence or fragility, is there something more? Is that in itself, if you're practicing Samatha, does that in itself turn?

[44:52]

Or do you need to do some other practice to turn it? So, part of what you said, if you have a strong sense of impermanence, is that enough? that's good to have a strong sense of impermanence, but also sometimes people have a sense of impermanence, but they're not open to it. You know, they sense impermanence, but they tense up. So they sense it, but they're kind of like trying to like get it under control perhaps or get away from it. But to just open to it without trying to jump into it or get away from it, just to be upright with it. then there's a possibility of realizing this body and mind which does turn, which does leap. So you really don't have to do more than just completely open to impermanence. Well, being upright is, yeah, being open is another way to say being upright.

[45:54]

So I use the example sometimes if you if you come to the edge of a pretty tall cliff, when you're a certain distance from it, you know that it's dangerous over there, but you may not be afraid. And if you are afraid, if you back up a little bit, you may not feel afraid. Does that make sense? As you get closer, you might get to a certain place where you start to feel afraid. you're sensing the danger, but you're not just sensing the danger, you're also feeling afraid. So I would say you might experiment by stepping back a little bit from the place you feel afraid and standing right near the danger, but feel a place where you're not afraid. Okay? Yeah, if that's possible. Because fragility is not going to go away. No, the danger of the cliff is still there. The danger is there, but it's possible to look at danger and know that it's a danger, but not be afraid.

[47:02]

That's possible sometimes. Well, actually being upright and feeling not afraid... it is kind of practicing shamatha or tranquility. In other words, you're actually, the danger is like two feet away or six feet away, plus also there's dangers from behind you maybe too. But anyway, you're in a place where you're not, you actually sense the danger, you're actually open to it, and you're not afraid. Such a condition does sometimes arise, perhaps, or you can cultivate that. And then if you move closer, you may start to feel afraid. Or if you lean forward, you may start to feel afraid. But if you come back upright and open, that's kind of the way to deal with danger that I'm suggesting, is to face them but be open to them, to be clearly aware of them but not afraid.

[48:04]

And you can experiment with the place of what kind of a posture is the posture which looks at and directly, clearly observes danger, but isn't afraid. Try to find that posture. Yes? When you've been talking about turning this morning, the phrase, the flower of dharma turns you, or you turn the flower of dharma, the flower of dharma turns the flower of dharma, and So I'm wondering, is every moment, every moment is turning? Every moment the flower of Dharma is turning, yes. And when we don't understand how that is, we're still being turned by the flower of Dharma. Or we are the flower of Dharma turning. But we... we may have some idea about what the flower of Dharma turning looks like and we hold to that idea so we think, this is not the flower of Dharma turning.

[49:17]

We don't believe it, we don't feel it because we're holding on to some idea. If we can have, like I maybe have some ideas of what the flower of Dharma turning is like, I may have such ideas. That's fine. But to let go of those ideas and understand that those ideas are just ideas of the flower of Dharma turning, and understand the flower of Dharma is actually empty of anybody's idea of the flower of Dharma, or the turning of the flower of Dharma is empty of anybody's idea of the turning of the flower of Dharma. If I accept that emptiness, of the turning of the flower of Dharma. Then, open to that emptiness, I open to the turning of the flower, which is always going on. Because the turning of the flower of Dharma is turning the flower of truth. It's the actual function of the truth, which doesn't take breaks. But if we hold on to any idea of it, we throw ourself off the center of it, which is also part of the way the Dharma works.

[50:21]

That's not separate from the turning of the flower, but we don't get it when we hold on, usually. If we let go, then we get it, including we get that if I hold on now, I won't get it. I'll throw myself off-center if I grasp anything here. So the turning of the flower of Dharma, the leaping free of whatever is happening, is always our life. Our life is actually not stuck Life stuck is death. But life is always surrounded by the possibility that life will get stuck, which is called death. But death is always vulnerable to life too. Death isn't permanent either. Life isn't permanent. Death isn't permanent. Leaping free is the actuality of the Buddhadharma. Not leaping free is the illusion of bondage and suffering.

[51:27]

But there is this illusion, there is an appearance of bondage and suffering, and there's also an appearance of what leaping is. People who are suffering have ideas of leaping which they hold onto. People who are free don't hold onto their ideas of freedom or bondage. But nobody's idea actually is what's going on. It's just that we have ideas of what's going on, but that's not what's going on. And when we're in crisis, that means we're like, there's a possibility that we'll let go of our idea. When we're holding onto ideas, we don't feel like we're in crisis unless we feel like, I'm holding onto my idea, but I feel like any minute my idea might be taken away from me. I'm holding on to what I think is right and wrong, but there's a possibility that I'll lose it all. Well, then you're starting to open up a little bit to danger of losing your grip on reality.

[52:30]

You're starting to enter into the realm of crisis. And then you say, okay, okay, I'm going to have all my ideas taken away from me, at least for a few seconds. And I say, okay, I'm actually open to that. I'm not afraid. I'm just open to that. And they may not be taken away, but you're open to them being taken away. They may just change, and you're open to that. Then you're also open to the leaping that's right under your nose. You're open to the leaping. You're open to the body which is leaping, which is your actual body. Yes? Is what you're saying, is leaping, another way of saying leaping non-resistance?

[53:32]

I would say that non-resistance I think is similar to detachment. So what I said first of all is sometimes we hear that the Buddha way is non-resistance or detachment. It's more like the non-resistance opens the door to the leaping. Or because you're not resisting, you can see the turning and the leaping. Right. Leaping is more like the function, and non-resistance is like the price of admission to the function. If you don't... if we keep resisting then we exile ourself from the function. And the leaping is connected or is part and parcel of participation? The leaping is part and parcel of participation, right.

[54:33]

So what kind of leaping and participation is it when there is no resistance to Are you describing a situation when you see someone's behavior and you have the idea that it seems unreasonable? Correct. And you have no resistance to it? Correct. What does it mean to participate in a situation where people are behaving in seemingly unreasonable So you see someone who appears to be behaving harmfully, right? To themselves or others. You see you have that appearance that people are being harmful? Yeah, okay. So in that situation, you're wondering what would it be like to not resist that?

[55:34]

Is that what you're saying? Oh, and participate in it. It would be that I would realize that my seeing them is my ability to see someone being harmful is possible only because I'm entirely part of the event of the harm. It's not like the harm's over there and I'm separate. I'm right in the middle of the world where the harm is appearing. I'm totally participating with it. Now, if I resist, again, if I resist that I'm participating in the world, If I resist that my ability to see and hear and touch and taste doesn't involve me participating with it, then I'm resisting the participation. I'm resisting my responsibility. And then unharmful things are over there, and unharmful or beneficial things are over there, and I'm not participating in them. and harmful things are over there and I'm not participating in them.

[56:39]

And you might say, no, no, I'm participating in the beneficial things, but I'm not participating in the harmful things. Well, I'm suggesting that we're actually part and parcel of whatever is going on around us. If you see something, you're participating in it, whatever it is. You can't, of course, like I said, you can't taste something if you don't participate with it. You have to let it into you And you have to go into it. You have to interact with it in order to experience taste. And you have to interact with colors, I mean with electromagnetic radiation to see colors. And you have to interact with mechanical waves in the room in order to hear sounds. So whatever your experience is, you have to interact with it and participate with it. And it has to participate with you in order to have an experience of it. So harmful things that appear we are participating in them. And usually what harmful things are are situations where people or other beings are involved in a situation where they don't understand that they're participating with each other.

[57:49]

That usually is harmful, or that's often as harmful if we don't see that we're participating with each other. If you see someone's participating with you, if you actually see it at that moment, you will be gentle with them. And vice versa, if you see they're participating with you, you will be gentle with them. But if you feel separate, and I'm not participating with that, then that actually is quite harmful, I think. Or at least it's a seed for harm. And on the other side, if somebody doesn't see that, it still seems potentially harmful. It is, yeah. If somebody else doesn't see it, it's harmful to them and to you. But if you feel that you're participating in them acting in a way that's harmful to them and or you and others, if you feel that, there's the opportunity to convey the teaching that we're participating together, that we're working together.

[58:53]

That's the so-called what can be done. That's the so-called what can be done. That's the so-called crisis where you are interacting with someone who's harmful and or dangerous or further harm. They're actually doing harm and there's danger of further harm. And you're entering the place of being with that danger with them. You're opening to the danger. And opening to the danger, you open to your participation. You open to the interdependence. So you're there with them demonstrating openness to them. They're seeing somebody who sees them as dangerous and is open to them. Now if people see them, they've all seen, people have seen, we have probably most of us seen some people seeing us as dangerous. I am dangerous, we're all dangerous and people see us as dangerous sometimes. And when they see us as dangerous, we see often they become afraid when they see us as dangerous.

[59:57]

So we've seen that already, that people who see us as dangerous become frightened and withdraw. They don't feel like they're participating in our dangerousness. We've seen that. We know how that goes. And we know how when we see people as dangerous and we don't feel like we're participating, we withdraw, we hold back, we see how that goes. But to see someone as dangerous and to be right there and open to the danger, then you're in the crisis spot. Then you're in a place where you can not just see them as dangerous, but open to how you're participating in their dangerousness. And then you can show them and show yourself this rather unusual thing of facing danger without being close to it, of meeting it in an open way. and meeting it with kind of like, you're dangerous, but you're my baby. You're dangerous, but I'm your baby. Don't hurt me. I'm your best friend. I mean, not your best friend.

[60:57]

I'm just one of your totally essential friends. You totally need me, and I totally need you, so don't hurt me. And don't let me hurt you, and I don't want to hurt you. Because we're like totally brothers. And you're participating me and I'm participating you. And I can talk to you like that when I'm really open to the danger of you. But if I'm afraid of the danger of you, then I'm afraid of talking like that because you might say, oh, what are you, gay? You know? Or, you know, that's sexual harassment or something like that, to talk to me like that. Don't call me my baby. And maybe I wouldn't. Maybe it's a rude way to say you're my baby. But I actually, when I'm moving around the world, I try to remember everybody. I try to see everybody, especially when I'm driving. I try to see everybody in the other cars as my grandson. When people cut in front of me.

[61:59]

If your grandson cuts in front of you, you don't freak out. Say, that's a little boy, little silly little boys trying to cut in front of you. You know, you're old, you know, you... It's like children. You're surrounded by beloved, adorable children in these cars, you know, who are honking at you and giving you the finger and stuff. But if you're not open to the danger, then when you see the danger, then you flinch and you don't see them as your child anymore. You don't see them as your dearly beloved anymore. So then you can become aggressive. I mean, you can always become aggressive. So you're dangerous. I'm dangerous. If you're open to it, if you're willing to face that, then you're willing to face, not even willing to face, then you can see your participation and your interdependence. And when you really see your participation and you see other people's participation, then you're realizing the Buddha way. Because in fact, Buddha way is we're always participating with each other.

[63:02]

And that's why we are turning, because everybody keeps turning us. And we keep turning everybody. We can't be fixed, because everybody's messing with us. And every time they turn us, we turn them. This is a constant turning. How do we open to it? I can't open to it if I close to danger. Does that make more sense? I think so. What I understand you to say is that... The opening and the acknowledging of it and even the communication of it to others that opens the possibility for living more in truth. Yeah, and more in truth, right. And more in harmony with truth. And living in harmony with truth is harmony. But there's no attempt that I hear you saying about... influencing a particular outcome?

[64:13]

I would say influencing a particular appearance. I want an outcome. I want the outcome of full life and leaping in the Buddha way. I want that outcome. I want the realization of the Buddha way, but how that will look, I have no idea. I have to give up my idea of how it's going to look. I do have an idea. I said I don't have an idea. I do have an idea of how it will look, but I have to give up... my ideas and realize, oh, even this is the Buddha way. Thank you very much. Even you, the way you're looking at me, is the Buddha way. Not so much the way you're looking at me is the Buddha way. But in the midst of the way you're looking at me, the Buddha way is the leaping in this situation. So we're together talking to each other. Some people are smiling at me. Some people are frowning at me. Some people hate me. Some people love me. In the midst of all that, the leaping is there. And there's a possibility then of realizing that leaping and then communicating it and watching how that works.

[65:16]

Yes? If what results in an anxiety attack? Well, if it results in an anxiety attack, I would say then open to the anxiety attack and then you will also open to the opportunity of another leap, another leaping. Pardon? Right. You know, it's hard to open to anxiety attacks. It's even hard to open to an anxiety, you know, like, well, I don't know what the word is, an anxiety touch or an anxiety neighborhood. It's hard to do that. When you don't do it, it's hard. But still, that's why I said, come to some situations where you can feel the danger there, some dangers, where you actually can see the danger, but you're not, you know, you're actually calm with it.

[66:33]

Try to like do some kind of dance with some kind of danger. Now if an anxiety attack is, you know, I should say, an anxiety attack may be a kind of a big danger to start with. But maybe the danger of an anxiety attack, just the possibility may not be too much for you to contemplate. But try to find something that you can open to that's dangerous. Or try to find some opening to some of the danger. and work your way to open to greater and greater danger. Or rather, I wouldn't say greater and greater danger, I would say work your way to greater and greater openness to danger. Because the danger of death is, right now we're in danger of death, all of us. So I'm not saying go someplace where you think the danger of death is greater. I'm saying more like open more to the danger of death.

[67:38]

and open more to the danger of anxiety attacks, and open more to the danger of losing our mind, and open more to the danger of losing our good reputation, and open to the danger of losing our livelihood. Open to the danger. I'm not saying go do something which is going to promote you losing your job. It's just all of us may lose our job. All of us may lose our mind. All of us may lose our health. Open to that. if you want to get to the place where you also open to interdependence. So if I close to all these dangers, I close to interdependence. If I close somewhat to these dangers, then I close somewhat to interdependence. If I close completely

[68:40]

to these dangers, I kind of close completely to interdependence. If I open completely to these dangers, I open completely to interdependence. And that's what I want to do. I don't particularly want to open to the dangers, but I say the price of admission to the full realization of interdependence is opening to the dangers that are here right now. And if I can't open to them completely, then I think I should open to the fact that I'm not open completely. And maybe open to the danger of what it's like. The main danger for me of not opening to danger is that I close to interdependence. The worst thing in life is ignoring interdependence. That's the worst. Nothing's worse. And the best thing is to open to it. Because if you open to it, then you can become, you know, a total basket case.

[69:47]

Even a basket case who has anxiety attacks. But you're okay because you're open to interdependence. You know, that's the thing you tune into is how you're working together with everybody, how you're participating with everybody. And then it's kind of like, okay, Reb, Are you ready now? You get total participation with everybody, and everybody participating with you, but you have to have an anti-anxiety attack. But you get to understand somehow that this is an interdependent event, and we're asking you to realize interdependence for the welfare of all beings, but you've got to be in an anxiety attack. Okay? It's kind of like... Okay. Okay. Again, I often tell people, you know, I'm not so afraid of having a heart attack. What I'm afraid of is maybe like having Alzheimer's and not even being able to remember how many skandhas there are, you know.

[70:53]

Not even be able to remember, in other words, how many different kind of aggregates of psychophysical phenomena there are. Or not be able to remember, what is the teaching again about Buddha Dharma? Not be able to have a mind that doesn't remember anything but like, you know, I don't know what. If I had a mind like that, I want to have a practice that doesn't depend on a mind like I've got now. And I'm not going to have this mind much longer. So I want a practice that doesn't depend on me being able to walk, being able to think, being able to remember anything. I want a practice that's not what I'm doing by myself. I want the practice which is the way I'm participating with everybody. I want to open to that practice. But if I'm afraid of the things that are going to happen to me or the people I care about, if I'm afraid of all the dangers that impermanence implies, if I close to that, then I close to the kind of practice which I think will take me through whatever comes, which is the practice of the way I'm going to be no matter what, which is the Buddha way.

[72:15]

I am going to keep leaping. and I want to tune into that leaping. And you can leap in Alzheimer's as well as you can leap in, you know, 15-year-old healthy brain. You're always leaping, and the leaping isn't the way you are. It's actually leaping clear of the way you are. If you're sick, it's leaping clear of being sick. If you're healthy, it's leaping clear of being healthy. It's the leaping. It's not the condition. It's the leaping. whatever our condition, it's an interdependent thing, and because it's interdependent, it leaps. But if I'm afraid of condition A, B, or C, and I close to them, then I close to the leaping of condition A, B, and C. And if I'm in a condition X and I'm comfortable with it, I would say, fine. Be comfortable with condition X. And then, isn't there some danger around condition X?

[73:23]

Yeah, while I'm comfortable in condition X, there's a danger that I'll become uncomfortable. So from my comfortable position, open to the danger of losing my comfortable position, and then enter the actual practice. And if I can't open, then perhaps I can confess that I can't open. In other words, I might be able to open by confession to that I'm closed. And that counts as opening. On some level, there might be a road, a door, into the turning place, into the crisis. We are in crisis. We are turning. Where's the door? And some doors you just maybe can't relax with. Look for another one. Find some door some place where you can open to the danger, and then find another one, and another one, and another one.

[74:27]

There's plenty of dangers. It's just a matter of opening.

[74:32]

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