So we need a couple more chairs. Is there a cushion over here? For everyone, do you want to sit on a cushion? I think it's normal to visit. Francis, I'm really glad that you're here tonight. And I'm so happy that Sarah helped you out. Welcome back. So is the undertow the way the water works so that you can't come in?

[01:18]

And the riptide is what moves you along the coast? Does anybody know how those two terms are used? What? Undertow pulls you back out. Yeah. Yeah. I went swimming shortly after I moved to San Francisco to live at Zen Center. I went swimming at Ocean Beach and I swam out and I think I was in the undertow because I was swimming in but I wasn't moving towards the beach. I mean I was just swimming in place. And at a certain point I realized I was just tiring myself out so I kind of miraculously gave up trying and went into a state of relaxation. And then I think a riptide brought me along the beach, and the ocean beach is quite straight, so it brought me along pretty much parallel to the beach.

[02:27]

And then I think that at a certain point in the surf, there's these rivers that go back in. So like the undertow is churning around, but it's being fueled by water that's going in on these little occasional rivers. I got moved into one of those rivers going towards the beach, and I was brought into the beach, but I was not conscious of being brought into the beach until... There was still some wave action in that river, but until I felt my feet hit the sand, and then I came to from this place of not trying to swim anymore. And I thought, oh, I'm here. And I thought, if that happens again, I'm going to push. I didn't think of swimming anymore. And then when it happened again, I pushed. on the sand as the waves threw me down in the sand and every time that happened I pushed and I pushed until I was in shallow water and then I crawled out and collapsed.

[03:34]

And I didn't, at that time I didn't know what happened but later up when I looked down at, when I could see down on beaches I saw that there's this kind of like churning thing and then there's this smooth thing going in. And I just, somehow I survived to get moved down the beach and brought in. It put me back in shallow water and then I collapsed. And a little boy came over and said, Mommy, is he dead? And his mother said, I think so. And then I heard these sirens going and I thought, oh, they're probably coming from me. And I was in a very kind of aching state. And I did not want them to pick me up and take me to the hospital, which I thought maybe they would do.

[04:50]

So I got up and walked back where I had come from where my friends were sitting there reading the Sunday newspaper. They just thought I went for a long swim. And one of them looked at me and said, Wow, you're lucky. So I'm very glad that you're with us because this beach is maybe, I don't know when you would have run into, were you continuing to try to swim when she came to you? Yeah, I don't know. If I kept swimming, I would have drowned because I noticed that I was getting weaker and weaker. And somehow I just realized, I actually turned around and looked out to the west, and I saw these big, soft waves, and I thought, if she wants me, she's got me.

[05:54]

I can't do anything about this. And I thought, but maybe I have something more to do. We'll see. Something more to do in this life. Maybe I'm not done. But I just felt like it wasn't up to me anymore. And it wasn't until I got into shallow water then I had to start working again. So we were, yes? May I make a public service announcement? Yeah. I think that when There's the, when you're caught, I'm not sure if it's a good tide or an undertow, but when you're going out and you can't swim back in, I've heard that it's a good idea to swim parallel to the shore, because then you can get out of that tide that goes out, so you can swim parallel. Right. And it might be possible to... To find that. Come back in. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know about that, but that's right.

[06:56]

If I swam... parallel to the beach, I might have found that, I might have experienced that pull of where I could go back in. You can swim a little bit and then turn and see if you can make any, yeah, thank you. So we were, last time we had the story about, a story about Bodhidharma and that he came from India and then met, somehow got an audience with the emperor of of Liang, Emperor Wu of Liang, and the emperor was quite a enthusiastic student of the Dharma and practitioner of meditation and

[07:58]

He actually went and lived in monasteries and so on and had some great encouraging experiences. And then when he met Bodhidharma, as the story goes, he asked Bodhidharma what merit there was to all the practices he had done and all the generous support he had given to the Sangha. And Bodhidharma said, no merit. And then he said, what's the highest meaning of the holy truths? And Bodhidharma said, what did he say? Say again? What? Vast emptiness, nothing holy. So that was his response. And so some people say that response is something that can be the I of the story.

[09:12]

And that if you can understand that expression, vast, empty, nothing holy, that you will realize peace. And you'll meet Bodhidharma very intimately and you can then talk to the Emperor and you can do the work of Bodhidharma. If you can understand that phrase. Vast emptiness, nothing holy. The emperor was not ready to enter that vast emptiness, nothing holy.

[10:16]

So he asked, you know, who is meeting me? Who is facing me? Who am I meeting? Actually, he said, me. Who am I facing? And Bodhidharma said, don't know. So I would just suggest that the emperor was a sentient being who, when he heard Bodhidharma's instruction, He was still thinking that Bodhidharma was separate from him and that the teaching was separate from him. And he wondered, you know, what is this teaching there and who is that that's giving me the teaching? And Bodhidharma said, don't know. it is often stated in this story, it is also stated that Bodhidharma's mission in coming to China was to transmit the Buddha Mind Seal.

[11:32]

So what he was trying to do was arouse arouse living beings and instruct them. And he was trying to instruct them first of all to direct their attention to their mind. And then while they're looking at their mind, while they're studying their mind, he had teachings for them about the nature of mind. And if we can somehow look at our mind and see the nature of our mind, then that's what makes Buddhas. looking at our mind, seeing its nature, looking at our mind, seeing its nature, and continuing to see the mind's nature as we live our daily life. Our daily life is our mind, which we look at. We look at our daily life, we look at our daily life, we look at our daily life, we're looking at our mind.

[12:40]

And we have a teaching that we're looking at our mind when we're looking at our daily life. that when we look at each other, we're actually looking at our mind. We're looking at the way we imagine others to be. So with this teaching, we're always, if we listen to this teaching and remember this teaching, everybody we meet, we're looking at our mind, and then we want to see what is the nature of our mind. Well, one story is vast emptiness. Another story is our mind has three characteristics. A dreamlike characteristic, a mysterious characteristic, and a freedom from the dream characteristic. And sentient beings, all they really have, all they really know, is the dream of their mind.

[13:45]

They have a mind which creates a dream of itself, and that's all we know. But by studying this dream, we can enter the freedom from the dream and realize the mystery of our mind, which is the mystery of our life. So I I invite you, I invite you, in other words, your mind invites you to study this vast emptiness, nothing holy, or another way to say vast emptiness is vast freedom from your ideas of your life. I invite you to study Vast Emptiness Know Wholly and I welcome you to express your practice with that to me and to anybody else who wants to interact with you around that.

[14:59]

But please check with someone before you before you share your your enthusiasm for studying this teaching. Even check with me. I said that I invite you, but please check with me. And I think I aspire to welcome you to talk to me about this, to converse with me the way Bodhidharma converses with herself. Someone said to me, which is a good point, that if you hear this teaching, vast emptiness, no holy, or if you hear this teaching, all sentient beings have to work with all that they have, all that they know, everything they know is just conscious construction only. In other words, all we know is our karmic consciousness.

[16:03]

Bodhidharma went to China to arouse people's interest in studying the mind, and arouse people's interest and instruct them how to study the mind. And this teaching was for people who were stuck in delusion, who were stuck in karmic consciousness. That's what he went to China for. Apparently, there were some people in China who were trapped in their karmic consciousness. There were people who were mired in their delusion in China. And he left India and some people there also were mired in their karmic consciousness. But I guess his friends were taking care of them sufficiently, so he thought, I'll go to China because they have not heard the teaching. the teaching which is for people who are stuck in karmic consciousness. But he also thought, I think the people in China actually will be able to receive this teaching.

[17:08]

He thought that they would be capable of hearing this teaching. So he went to China to give this teaching. So I thought, well, maybe even today people are mired in delusion just like they were in China and India a while ago. Okay, so this teaching is that what we know is conscious construction only. It's empty of our ideas about it. And someone pointed out that that kind of teaching if you practice that kind of teaching it kind of allows the status quo to go on. Because you're not actually trying to like Like if there's people who are deluded and you see them and you study your mind when you look at them, although you're doing what some people said is the process of making a Buddha, you don't really like change these beings' delusions.

[18:20]

And if these beings are being unjust to each other, you don't really necessarily, I mean, I should say this, their injustice could go on because you're not actually like, I don't know what. I shouldn't say what you're not doing. What you are doing is you're looking, when you see injustice, you realize, you remember the teaching that you're looking at your mental construction of injustice. And if you see injustice and then you realize, oh, this is my story of injustice, at that moment you kind of allow the injustice. So this teaching then could allow, if injustice is a situation, it could allow injustice to be. And that seems to be a problem. Because, yeah, that seems to be a problem. So I'm saying, wait a minute now, let's see.

[19:22]

Do the people who are practicing this teaching, do they aspire to liberate beings from injustice? This teaching is for people who aspire to liberate beings from injustice. This teaching is a great vehicle teaching for people who have that aspiration. So if you see injustice and you wish to liberate beings from it, is it possible that by being aware that you're a deluded person seeing injustice and you're a deluded person who wishes to liberate beings from injustice, can you accept that at that moment you actually allow the injustice to be I should say that you allow what you think is injustice to be what you think is injustice. Can you allow that? If you can't allow it, then, again, can you apply your inability to allow it, can you apply the teachings to that, which will also allow your inability to allow it the same way?

[20:41]

Can you do that? So Bodhidharma tried to arouse the interest in practicing that way with whatever. If you see justice, Bodhidharma also wants to free deluded people from their idea of justice. And Bodhidharma wants to free deluded people from their idea of injustice. So I would suggest that he teaches deluded beings who see injustice to practice with the injustice in a way that would liberate all beings from the injustice. Right? Doesn't that make sense that that's what he would do? He wants to liberate beings from injustice when he sees it. He wants to practice with injustice in a way that will liberate beings from it. He doesn't necessarily want to eliminate injustice.

[21:45]

Why wouldn't he want to eliminate injustice? Because injustice is vast emptiness. No justice and no injustice. He's not trying to make justice. He's trying to discover it. And so he recommends that we apply the practice of justice towards injustice. We apply the bodhisattva precepts of justice to any appearance of injustice. And also we apply justice to any appearance of justice. And with that, intention, we then also receive the teaching that what we're applying is our idea of justice to our idea of injustice. The purpose here is not to eliminate all of our ideas of injustice.

[22:54]

The point is to free beings from injustice. And the only kind of injustice there is is mentally constructed justice. Outside, I should say, aside from mentally constructed justice, there's no justice. Aside from mentally constructed injustice, there's no injustice. Injustice only occurs within human consciousness. And there's not even outside of human consciousness. I said inside, Inside human consciousness is inside delusion. Outside of human consciousness is inside human consciousness. Freedom from human consciousness is neither inside nor outside of human consciousness. And freedom can be realized by taking care of human consciousness with the practices of justice, the practices of compassion.

[24:05]

I'm not explaining. I don't mean to explain anything. I'm more like trying to arouse and instruct entry into your mind or the mind. I'm wishing to arouse the enthusiasm to take care of the mind in such a way as to liberate beings from injustice. But when you see injustice at that moment, I'm not saying to kill it. I'm not saying to lie about it. I'm not saying to slander it. I'm not saying to distract yourself from it. In other words, what I'm saying is practice the precepts with the appearance of injustice. Bodhisattvas practice compassion towards deluded minds. They practice compassion towards the appearance of deluded minds. They practice compassion towards the appearance of injustice.

[25:13]

Or at least they aspire to it. But they don't just do that. They also study what they're being compassionate towards. And they have instructions about the nature of what they're studying. So the appearance of injustice and the appearance of practicing compassion towards it, have a dreamlike quality, have a mysterious, inconceivable quality, and have a freedom from the dream quality. All things are conscious construction only. Any response to that is welcome, but also I just tell you that I welcome you to study this central phrase and any other phrase I welcome you to study, and that this tradition of what we call Ancestor Zen is to use

[26:26]

is to use words to liberate us from words. To use words like justice to liberate us from injustice, for example. And to use words like injustice to liberate us from injustice. To liberate us from the word injustice because there's no other injustice. There isn't a real injustice. If there was, we might as well just accept it because it's real. But it isn't. So we should also accept it. We should accept the unreal in order to accept the real. And it's hard to accept the unreal when the unreal is injustice. It's hard to welcome the unreal. Welcoming the unreal means welcome what I think is happening. For me. And you don't have to welcome what I think is happening.

[27:34]

You have to welcome what you think I think is happening. I say you have to in order to be free of what you think I think, in order to be free of what you think I am. So I wonder, do you wish to be free of what you think I am? Some of you might say, well, I think you're kind of nice. I don't want to be free of that. Because then I would be free of something nice. But still, Bodhidharma came to encourage us to arouse the intention to become free of everything we think, even when we think nice things. And also, even when we think horrible things. Mark, please come. Do I have to? You do not have to. I don't want to understand what you're saying.

[28:40]

You don't want to? No. And I'm... Do you want to understand what you think I said? No. Do you want to understand your mind? No. But what I see... is a picture of someone doing harm. Yes. Do you see that right now? Yes. And taking what you said. Yes. Yeah. And bringing it into that present moment with respect to injustice. That present moment or this present moment? This present moment. Yeah. And the injustice piece. Yeah. The action piece. Because it's the mind dropping the mind, dropping the body. Seeing injustice is an action. Do you agree? Yes. Okay. So what are you going to bring to the action of seeing injustice?

[29:41]

What are you going to bring to that? I don't want to bring anything to it. I thought you said bring something to it. Well... You take it back? Yes. Okay. Okay, so we got the action of seeing injustice, and what do you have to say about that? I have difficulty at that point because I struggle with preventing further harm. You struggle with preventing further harm. Okay, so now is your thought that there is injustice, is that harmful? Not to me. Okay, so you got this thought that there's injustice and it's not harmful to you, but even so you wish to prevent. We don't have harm now.

[30:45]

It's not further harm. We do have harm. We have observation of harm. Is observation of harm, harm? No. Is harm, harm? And that's where the struggle is. Is harm harm? But before it's harm harm, is observation of harm harm? No. I mean, you get to say, what do you think? If you see someone fall down and hurt themselves, is observing that harmful? No. I agree. What would be harmful at that moment? They're hurt. You see them hurt. You want to help them. Where's the harm? No harm. No harm there. What would be harmful right there? What could be harmful? They've gotten hurt, sort of, wounded or whatever. You observe them. Where could they be harmed now? No action. You already took an action.

[31:47]

You thought that they were harmed. That's your action. Okay. Right there. What would be harmful right there? Let me go try to catch it here. An assumption, maybe? An assumption. What assumption might there be that might be harmful? At the point of the fall. Pardon? At the point of the fall, the result of the fall, there was harm. But that's not the... Wait a second, wait a second. Now you're doing another thing. Now you're saying, as a result of the harm, but I'm saying, as soon as you saw this thing, I'm saying, was that observation harmful? And I thought you said no. No. No. Yeah, I agree. But now, where could there be harm? So far in the story, I don't see harm. Where could there be harm? So far, there couldn't be so far in the story.

[32:50]

Yeah, right. So far, you have a living being who sees something and I don't see any harm. Now, if the living being believed that what they saw was more than the action of seeing that, then I would say that's harmful. To you, to the one who sees it that way. Yes, but I'm talking also about observing infliction of harm by human being, for example, on another human being? Well, how about a human being towards himself? That too. Like a boy riding a bicycle and falling down on the ground. Did he harm himself by his unskillfulness? It could look like that, couldn't it? It could. Yeah, and if he ran into another kid, it could look like he harmed the other kid. In both cases you could say his action caused harm. You could observe that.

[33:57]

And you could even say it's unjust. You could think that. I could? Yeah. Is that harmful to think that somebody did something unjust? What makes it harmful when you think somebody is doing something unjust? Where does the harm start? Yes, but what about you? What do sentient beings do with that stuff? They suffer. They suffer, but why do they suffer with the thought, this boy seems to have hurt himself? What causes the suffering? Compassion? No, compassion does not cause the suffering. Compassion addresses the suffering in a certain way, which brings benefit even before the beings involved are liberated.

[35:00]

Let me suggest to you what causes the suffering in that story, which you didn't say. You said there was suffering, but I'm saying what causes suffering? Now that you've introduced suffering, I would say clinging to the story. When the Buddha sees a child fall down and hurt himself, he doesn't cling to that story. And that's doing justice to the story. It's not clinging to it. Clinging to our stories is injustice. I propose that to you. and cling to my stories if I, for example, now I'm telling a story if I cling to this story I'm acting unjustly and that would cause suffering but I aspire not to cling to the stories I'm saying but I do say to you that the story you said when you said you just see injustice seeing injustice if you don't cling to it does not cause suffering and then you could go and say hello I saw some injustice I wanted to tell you about

[36:04]

Can I share with you, you know? And the person says, no, go away or whatever. And then you might see another injustice. And then you say, I saw another one. And you're totally enthusiastic about giving more gifts to this person. But you're not suffering. You're not suffering. And you're showing them how to become free of suffering. And they might say to you, actually, I'm already free of suffering. There wasn't any injustice here. although I hear your story of it, but I don't cling to your story and I also don't cling to my story that there isn't injustice. This is what's possible if we practice justice with the appearance of injustice or the appearance of harm. Our mind does construct harm and help. It does, right? Those actions in themselves are not harmful. A Buddha could think that. A Buddha could think, Mark got harmed, Mark got helped. But the Buddha would not cling to those stories because the Buddha's been trained to know that those stories are just conscious construction and actually Mark is inconceivably wonderful non-stop.

[37:15]

And he's free of my constructions about him. But I do have the construction that Mark was harmed or Mark was helped. And sharing my constructions with him, he can pick up how to do the same with his constructions about me and himself and other people. What do you think about that, Mark? Trying not to clean you. Trying to just keep your eye on it. Very good. And Mark didn't want to come, but other people raising their hands, they're invited to come. He didn't want to come, apparently. And I did not think that was unjust of you. I didn't think that.

[38:18]

I thought that was reasonable of you to ask that, and I went along with that. But now I see Yossi, and I'm inviting Yossi to come up. We'll see what he does. Thank you for the invitation. I feel comfortable here. Would you please come up? Thank you for the invitation. You're welcome. Jackie, would you please come up? Well, I just had a response to Mark's... Would you please come up? No? Nobody has to. Nobody has to. But, you know, I just invited you to, and you don't have to. I still would like to say something, though. I hear you. And you did, by the way. Okay. That was very nice. You've said quite a bit, actually. We've been having a conversation, you and me. And she raised her hand, so I thought I'd invite her to come up.

[39:18]

And she's making her way through the narrow canyon of Green Gulch Farm. I got it. Hello. Hi. Welcome, Jackie. Well, I was just wondering about Mark's question. His livelihood is about... Justice. Justice. Is that right? It's yours. Well, I have a passion for it. Is it a livelihood? Are you getting fed to take care of this passion? No, actually, I like to be less passionate about it. less passionate about justice? Yeah. Do you think you're overly passionate? I was. You were. Are you getting more balanced kind of passion now?

[40:20]

Well, I guess if the stimulus was strong enough, I might react passionately. Well, I feel passion's fine. I just thought maybe you were saying... When you say passion, do you mean excessively concerned? Is that what you mean by passion? Well, like during my divorce, I was very passionate. During the you know during the lawyer phase where lawyers were representing me You know I had a cause it was very passionate But now when I look back at it It wasn't necessary The kind of passion you had yeah, it wasn't necessarily beneficial it wasn't beneficial now, okay It was very harmful

[41:22]

Okay. But I can see if I went to Mark to get help, and he felt he wanted to help me for the injustice that he may see that was done to me, for example. And he might take that on to want to help me. So he couldn't do it if he just said, I'm not going to attach to this, you know, if you just... I don't know how you were telling him to just kind of be mellow. I wasn't exactly telling him to be mellow, but I'm okay with him being mellow. Is that what you were saying? Can a lawyer be mellow? Well, no.

[42:24]

We're changing that story now. That's not what I intend to say. Yes, a lawyer can be mad. I just asked that. I didn't say you were trying to say that. I just asked that. I guess what were you really advising him to do? I don't know what you were advising. I was advising him to... I was instructing him how to observe his mind when his mind saw injustice. So if you brought him your story... And when he heard your story, if he saw injustice, then if he had me at his size and he was asking me for instruction, I would say, do you see injustice, Mark? And he would say, yes. I say, and do you believe what you see? And if he said yes, I would say, how do you feel about that? And I think he would say that he would feel suffering. And then I would say, okay, good.

[43:27]

You see how that works. And then he might also say, I see injustice, but I don't believe it. And I'm going to practice justice towards the vision of injustice that I see. And I'm going to practice generosity and ethical discipline and patience and concentration. And I'm going to try to fully engage this appearance of injustice to bring beings freedom from injustice and justice. He does that fighting a case? Would he be fighting? He'd be fighting a case. Somebody might say he's fighting the case, but in his mind, he might feel like his main agenda is that he's watching his mind while he's working on this case, and he's trying to be compassionate towards his mind while he's working on this case. And somebody might say he's fighting the case. They might say that.

[44:27]

And people said that to him, he said, I hear you. And he said, do you see it that way? And he might say, no, I don't see it that way. I see that I'm trying to bring justice to what I see as injustice. He might say that. But usually there's another person. There's two people involved. There's his client, who he's representing, and the other person who he's opposing. Right. Yes. So how does he go about opposing? I'm not saying what Mark does, but a bodhisattva... lawyer is maybe hired by one person, but he works for the welfare of not only that person, but the person that his client is addressing. And he's working for the benefit of the judge, too, and the other lawyer. Bodhisattvas are working for the benefit of everybody. And so Mark said, if this is a bodhisattva class, then I would instruct Mark how to be a bodhisattva with the thought that his mind creates of injustice.

[45:39]

And we often do have this view of injustice. And so how does the bodhisattva come to that vision of injustice and benefit everybody? That's the question. And this is instruction about how to benefit all beings in a situation where we see injustice. Which does not... This practice does not obliterate the appearance of injustice. It brings compassion to the appearance of injustice. And when the compassion is fully exercised, there is not attachment to the appearance. And this is the way to bring justice, without there being any separation between the two sides. Is that possible? That's what's being proposed here, is that's possible. It's possible to benefit all beings involved. And that's what the Bodhisattva aspires to, not just to benefit one side, Even if the other side gets punished?

[46:45]

Even if the other side gets punished. Sometimes that is a beneficial scenario. It's possible. But the bodhisattva definitely wants, if there's going to be punishment, if that's what's unfolding, the bodhisattva is watching how can this punishment come in a way that would benefit beings. That's what their concern is. But when the punishment comes, I think that's where Mark may feel suffering. He might feel suffering. If the human mind, if the bodhisattva is involved as a sentient being, bodhisattvas are sentient beings, bodhisattvas aspire to do this, but until they get rather highly trained, they still may attach to some images in the process, and then they will suffer. And there's a teaching which tells them that, and then they see, oh yeah, that seems to be true, that when I attach to my story about what's going on, I feel stress.

[47:51]

A little bit or a lot. And so I confess that I did attach to my story. I confess it. And I don't just confess it because that's all the suffering. I actually saw myself holding on even before I saw the stress. Sometimes the stress tips you off that you're holding on. Like sometimes when I'm holding on, I notice energy disturbances in my body or tensions. And I say, oh yeah, I kind of believe what I just said. And I confess, yeah, I thought actually I was not just telling a story that I made up in my mind, but I was actually... I actually believed that what my mind was creating was actually a reality more than conscious construction. And I don't feel terrible about that. I feel embarrassed because this teaching has been given to me so I forgot it.

[48:53]

But I also understand that that embarrassment will encourage me to try again. And that I could be... I haven't functioned as a lawyer, but I've functioned as a, what do you call it, arbiter. I've been with lawyers, and I was brought in to work with, to arbitrate, and I really wanted to help both sides, and some of the lawyers sometimes told me that I was helpful. They felt I was helpful, and things went well for the process, and I really was trying to help both sides. And I've often advised lawyers to try to help both sides, and they've come back and told me that that was really helpful, that they really did try, and things worked out really well by that method. And they were kind of, you could say, passionate or enthusiastic about really trying to help everybody find a way to benefit everybody involved. But it doesn't mean we're always successful at that, but that's what we aspire to,

[50:03]

And then even when we're not successful, we still might say, well, I don't see that I was successful, but I still want to keep trying. Thank you. Thank you. Sarah, could you wait just a second, please? Yossi, did you want to say something now? Sir, would you like to come up? Would you please come up? And I know if you had this, maybe you had the same conversation with somebody besides me. You are now. But I also remember we had this conversation last week. Yeah, thank you for that point. And I was stimulated by what you said. Yeah, me too.

[51:06]

Right now, and I'm remembering that what was helpful for me at the end of the conversation was some, which I guess I wanted to check out with you and see if, I feel like you're implying it in my mind. This is the conclusion of what you're saying. When I think about injustice, usually there's somebody over there perpetrating the injustice. And then I'm over here wanting justice. Or maybe I'm part of the injustice. But anyway, we're kind of all... I get stuck, actually. There's nowhere to go. And then I am no longer in the present moment, which is actually... totally fluid and creative and and it if I get stuck thinking that injustice is there and Justice is there.

[52:09]

It doesn't actually allow for the injustice or the person perpetrating the injustice to be part of a just solution they actually So so letting go of my story and I think the scary thing about letting go of it is, as you said, I was worried about getting stuck in the status quo, that nothing would change, that injustice would continue. But actually what I realized is if I could let go of my idea, that actually allows the situation to be fluid and for something, for it to change. And that's not the status quo. Fluidity is not the status quo. But we think that we need to force the fluidity, but we don't have to. We need to open to it and let everybody involved participate in the realization of this inconceivable flow, this inconceivable fluidity of working together.

[53:17]

And as you said, they may not actually recognize the invitation. And then we may have to make it again and again. And also, when they don't recognize the invitation, we're responsible for that too. It's not all around their lack of recognizing it. And that also opens it up. And when we accept that, we may notice that somehow now they seem to accept it when we notice that we contributed to them to the story that they didn't accept it. And this bringing our idea, humbly bringing our idea of justice to the image of injustice is one of the gestures we can make, realizing that we, you know, we're still just bringing our idea of justice to our idea of injustice.

[54:23]

And also our idea that the justice is over there rather than over here. But we support all injustice. It couldn't be there without us. You can't be, the person I'm seeing here couldn't be here without me. and vice versa. Right. And so this is the part in the conversation where I try and remember the present moment, remember the fluidity and let go of whatever this story is that I'm now getting confused about. Yeah. And welcome the confusion. Be just to the confusion. And confusion deserves to be welcomed. And if we can welcome it and be careful of it, and be patient with it, and calm down with it, we can see that it actually is not what we think confusion is. It doesn't mean there's no confusion, it's just that confusion is as marvelous as clarity, as inconceivable as clarity.

[55:32]

It isn't like, yeah, like clarity is inconceivable, but confusion isn't, or vice versa. All phenomena have this inconceivable quality. And for sentient beings, all phenomena have this solid quality, this graspable quality, and that's what we know. And we humbly say, okay, I'm a sentient being, I'm into that, and also I believe it. But I still bring encouragement for me to let go of what I believe. And then like, yeah, what's next? Yeah, and what's next? So this is, for me, this is exploring vast emptiness, no holy. Or vast emptiness, no justice.

[56:34]

And no injustice. And no injustice. But I don't wish to bring injustice to the appearances of justice and injustice. I don't wish to bring injustice to it. I aspire to bring justice to it. And I understand justice to be these bodhisattva practices of generosity and so on. And I'm a sentient being, so I have to deal with the words generosity in order to become free of the word of generosity and practice the reality of generosity, which I will practice the reality of it. I'll realize that by practicing my dream of it. But I might be arrogant and say, I'm not practicing a dream of compassion or a dream of generosity.

[57:44]

I'm practicing real generosity. And I would say, yes, I agree you are, but you don't know it. what you know is a dream of generosity, but you are actually practicing generosity. Really, we are practicing generosity all the time. That's the reality. We're trying to discover that reality, that we're being just. Inconceivably, right now, we're being just with each other. But our mind cannot see that, cannot construct that. It's, you know, what our mind can construct is a story of justice or not. But really, we are practicing justice. It's a matter of realizing that. That's the reality that Buddhists have discovered, and they're trying to help us enter that reality by taking care of our unreality as best we can. Did you want to sit over here? Yeah.

[58:44]

This story, there's a person sitting in a room and they believe that they've just been tortured. And they understand, they have an understanding that in showing the suffering, uh, increases the torture that they say in sharing the suffering. No, in showing, in showing the suffering that, uh, that that will increase the action that they, uh, believe to be torture. Okay. And, uh, so they don't. And then, uh, And then they see the person who they believed was torturing them, they now believe they're torturing another.

[60:22]

Okay? Yeah. So, my understanding of what you're saying is that Is this person, when they perceive they're being tortured, Can have an effort not to show suffering. Have a what? An effort. To not show suffering? To not show suffering. No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm just, can I get to where I'm going? Yeah, but I just... Okay, yeah. You said what you said, I just said... No, all right. So if this person, I'm saying, if this person can not show suffering... they're already reducing the suffering. You have that story? I have that story, okay. And then... And they might find that quite easy.

[61:28]

But then when they see, they perceive this suffering being inflicted on another, they find that... much more difficult not to see as suffering being inflicted upon another. I'm wondering if in that teaching what's happening here is that by if one can let go of the perception that someone is suffering, one decreases the suffering. And if we don't tend to, that the person doesn't let go of that, and they want to stop it, it's like stop it now. And in that stopping of it now, there is an increase of suffering.

[62:36]

And And so what the teaching here is that It has something intrinsic. This is what I don't understand. Where the connection is in between the now. Like, you know, I want a new car now. I can suffer about that. I want the war to stop. I can suffer about that. I want the torture to stop. I will be suffering by wanting it now instead of being generous with... with my story about wanting a car, being patient, about wanting the war to stop, about being upright, and all of those things with each of them, with this perception I have, or one has, about someone being tortured.

[63:38]

Is that what you're saying? No, but that's what you said. No, okay. You just said what you said. I didn't say what you just said. Is that what the teaching is trying to illuminate? The teaching is trying to illuminate all our stories, yes. The story you just told, the teaching is trying to illuminate, for example, that story. Right. And liberate. anybody that believes that story and is attached to that story to liberate people from that. Right. The teaching is not about... So with this teaching, you can see suffering, the appearance of suffering, and you can wish right now that the suffering, that the being would be free of suffering now. You can do that in a generous way. Right. Or not. And this teaching says if you do it in an ungenerous way... That doesn't contribute to the freedom from seeing the suffering, the freedom from wishing for it to end now.

[64:45]

Okay, yeah. You can be free of the vision of suffering, and you can be free of the wish for there to be suffering, and freedom from the wish for there to be freedom from suffering is what brings freedom from suffering. Right. But it's okay to wish for suffering to end right now, but in a generous way, not in trying to get it. Right. That's what I was trying to say. Yeah. Okay, I see suffering, I see sickness, and I wish this person would be free of it right now. And then the person may say the next moment, I'm not free of it right now, and I'm not angry at them for not being free. I say again, I heard you say you're still suffering, and I maybe don't say it to them, but I still wish that they'd be suffering right now.

[65:46]

But I completely welcome that they're sick right now. And this sets up the possibility for me to realize that they are free right now. The reason why I want them to be free right now is because they are. But I can't realize that they are unless I'm kind to that they appear to not be. And I'm patient with them appearing not to be free. Right. That's part of my practice of compassion is to be patient with they seem to be suffering right now and I'm not thinking of the future. I'm wishing them to be free right now. And in the future. But right now, I'm focusing on now I want them to be free. And I want to practice being free to show them how to do it. And I want them to learn. And I want them to learn right now. And if they say, I do not want to learn now, I'd rather learn later.

[66:52]

I completely aspire to completely accept that and that's the path for them to become free. That's the teaching I'm suggesting. Right. So the teaching is that by hanging on to this story, by trying to fight this story instead of being generous and letting go of it, Actually, the suffering is... Perpetuated. Perpetuated. It's perpetuated. Right. Even though it feels... Even though it's not perpetuated. And even though we are already free, we have to practice this way. We have to practice this way in order to realize it. The way is all-pervading and perfect. There's no place it doesn't reach. But we have to do this practice to realize that. And so we have practical examples of where it's hard. We're out in the ocean, having trouble getting in, and it's hard to welcome that situation.

[67:58]

And if we do, we'll become free, and free means free of our delusion, and realize the wonderful truth, the wonderful truth is that we are already in perfect peace and harmony with each other. That's what the Buddhists see. And they also see all these people that are in perfect harmony with each other, some of them do not see this, and when they don't see it, they're more or less feeling really, really stressed or tortured. That's how they feel. And I can see that they see that they're tortured. I can see how they imagine this. I completely see that. And I completely accept that they're doing that. And I'll be with them as long as they're doing this. I wish to be with them and wish them well and wish they would wake up now. but also they don't agree with now. They're not ready for this. They're not even ready to welcome, not to mention wake up to the reality of a totally different world that's not the least bit separate.

[69:07]

That's where this teaching, vast emptiness, no holy, vast emptiness, no justice, vast emptiness, that's where this teaching is heading, is to liberate all beings from their delusion that they're not free and at peace with each other, from their delusion that there's somebody that they're not totally devoted to, and there's somebody who's not totally devoted to them. So most of us can see that there's something we're not totally devoted to. We can see that vision. And some of us would consider, when I see that I'm not devoted to somebody, I feel like I'm being tortured. To not be devoted to this person is like, for some people, to not be devoted to person X is like the worst thing that they can imagine. like mothers sometimes, just the worst thing, the worst thing is that they wouldn't be devoted to their baby. You say, well, it's even worse if the baby's unhappy.

[70:12]

Well, it's just kind of like, okay, one of the worst things. That is terrible to think of that. But that's not true. So how do we wake up to that it's not true? By being kind to the false. by being kind to the story that I'm not completely devoted to all beings and not all beings are completely devoted to me. That's one story. Some people have a story, I'm devoted to a lot of beings but not all of them. And a lot of beings are devoted to me but not all of them. Another one is I'm not devoted to anybody and nobody's devoted to me. That's relatively more painful. The Buddha teaches everybody is totally on board for the welfare of all beings. We're all doing that together. And that's where the Buddha has awoken to that. That's the inconceivable reality of dependent co-arising.

[71:14]

And it's beautiful beyond anything we can say. Even though I'm saying this stuff, it's far more beautiful than that. And it's not the least bit separate from the story of, I'm devoted to most people in the room here. And a lot of them, but not all, are devoted to me. That's just a story, right? And actually, right now, I don't really have that story. I have, you know, I have a story that, yeah. Well, do I really have the story that you're all totally devoted to me? Okay, yeah, I do. You all are totally devoted to me. I got this story. And I'm not going to hold on to it. Thank you very much for your amazing devotion to, also that you're all also devoted to each other. That you're totally devoted to each other. I have that story, which I'm not attached to.

[72:18]

And you're totally devoted to me, even though you sometimes say, sometimes you wonder about that. But really, I know you're always totally devoted to me and to Lauren and Alisa and Timon. Thank you. You're welcome. Anything else tonight, inconceivably devoted ones? Yes, Alisa, come up, if you would, please. I'm a little fuzzy on what I want to say, but there's something that often comes up for me when I'm listening to you. And it's like, there's something that I feel like is missing, but I know that it's not, it doesn't feel like it's really missing.

[73:23]

But it's like, I know that you It's like things make a difference. Things that we do make a difference, right? Like you've made a difference in my life, or this is a story. This is my story, okay? But to be honest, I think it's more than a story. Like on the one hand, it's a story. Part of it is that sometimes I feel like what's missing is like when we say words can't reach it, there's it. Right? And even it can't reach it, right? But there's still it. And sometimes, I mean, there's not it, but there's a thing that it can't reach, right? So... Right? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I guess neither do I. But...

[74:26]

But I still feel like it needs more emphasis. You know? The it? The it or the can't reach? The it. Because we really do make a difference in each other's lives, and our actions really do make a difference. I mean, maybe, you know, if you want to say I'm speaking in conventional terms or whatever it is, but... To me, it's so real. Little tiny things I do. Just like day to day, I think about little tiny things I do because I know that little tiny things have had an effect on me. And on the one hand, it's... dependent coal rising and all that. And on the other hand, it's like, I really do things, even just here in Green Gulch, how I answer the phone and talk to people that are calling it, little things, you know, we're always doing something, right? And sometimes when I listen to you, I worry, because you know I worry.

[75:33]

You worry about what? I worry about that, that there's not, about losing... losing that care about it. And I know that's not your intention. Right. And it's not my intention. And what I'm saying is the sense that all these things you say, little things, I'm saying that those little things, what you know about these little things, right? But it's not just little things. I'm saying little things, but it's huge, gigantic things. Little things and gigantic things. Right. These are things you know about. I don't understand. You seem to say you take care of little things, and then I'm saying you seem to know about these little things you're taking care of. No, I don't know. I'm not saying that I know 100%. Like, I'm not saying that I know. I understand.

[76:33]

I mean, I get the thing of, like, we don't always know. Like, we might think that we handled something skillfully, but maybe it had a harmful effect. Or we might, I get that. But still, I'm going to try my best. So there you're going to try your best. And so you know that you wish to try your best. You kind of know that, that this thought, I'm trying my best. And you also might think, and I actually aspire to try my best in all my activities. And I guess I do have faith that it'll... I don't know, or... Yeah, well, I guess I do have faith that if we try our best, we'll have a more positive effect. I guess maybe there's some... Now a Tony Kushner quote is popping into my mind. Hope is a moral obligation. Yeah, so I guess I have that hope that if we try our best, ultimately we'll be better.

[77:40]

But I think I really do think that. Anyway, whatever. Well, you said hope is a moral obligation. So what I agree with is that we naturally feel moral obligation. Mm-hmm. And if we lose, and this feeling of moral obligation is what I mean by justice. We feel an obligation to justice, to moral obligation. We feel an obligation to compassion. Mm-hmm. And to respect that sense of obligation to moral discipline with many or all the things we do, that's necessary in order to become free of our delusion. I'm saying. Okay.

[78:41]

But of... Of our collective delusion? Or like when you say of our delusion, you mean of my delusion? For me, of mine. And if I actually have a practice where I address my delusions with the intention of honoring my moral obligation, my obligation to justice, my obligation to compassion, if I relate to my own delusions in that way, I will become free of my delusions. That's the theory. And do you believe that you'll be more helpful to others if you do that? I believe that by doing that, I will demonstrate to others how they can do it with their own delusions. Mm-hmm. They will see how I deal with mine, for example, about them. And you want to do that, though. Want to do what?

[79:43]

You want to... You want to... I don't know. I lost my thread. But you want to do that. Like, you want to help others. You know what I'm saying? I do. No, I don't know if I do. I hear you say, I heard you say, you want to help others. The answer is, yes, I do. How do I want to help others? I want to show others how to deal with their delusions by showing them how I deal with mine. But also, like, if it's not a delusional situation, if it's like somebody's cut their leg and, you know, you're going to put down that, you're going to, you know, you're supposed to apply pressure, you're going to apply pressure. This is a tricky part. You say it's not a delusional situation. I would say when I see you hurt, what I see is my version of your hurt. So then I come over to help you, but I know I'm addressing my story of you. And I'm still trying to be generous towards you, who I think needs help. You're really going to be thinking about all that when I'm... I'm sorry.

[80:48]

You know what I mean? Like, isn't it a street? Isn't it? Okay, sorry. Are you asking me about me? I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay. I aspire to. Okay. So that when I come to you and you say, leave me alone, I can hear you. I don't think you're nuts. I can respect you when you say, don't touch me. But if someone was like bleeding and they said not to touch them, what would you do? Would you leave them? The first thing I would do is listen to them because I heard them. I heard them say they don't want me to touch them. When I broke my leg, they wanted to straighten it. And I said, please don't straighten it. I can't let you straighten it. I just can't allow that. Because I had these two shards of femur inside my thigh, and they wanted to straighten it, take an x-ray. I just didn't want them to move it. They listened to me. They wanted to help me, but they listened to me. So, like for my grandson, I told you, he's riding down the street here, you know, and I say, watch out, there's a speed bump.

[81:50]

And he didn't slow down. He hit the speed bump and he flew. And he's the kind of kid that when he hits the ground, he doesn't cry right away. You know, he's actually not like... a little bit of pain. He hit the ground, and he was quiet, and then he started to slide right there, slide, you know, and as he started to slide, you know, it got more and more painful, and then he started to cry, and when I came to help, he said, don't touch me. I was trying to help him, but he also wanted me, he says, it's my body. And in fact, he did not need me to touch him. He got up and so on. But it's possible that in other cases he might try to get up and I might offer again and again. And so the vast majority of situations that I run into where I want to help people, I ask them before if they want help. And if they say no, I usually listen to that.

[82:52]

But if I see somebody and I have the image that they need help, I usually like, I aspire to go to that. But I also aspire to realize that this is my story that they need help and I want to respect their story. And what kind of help do they want? But sometimes it gets sticky. Sometimes it gets sticky. Like if somebody's suicidal. Sticky, sticky. Like I've been in that situation where somebody was suicidal and they said that they didn't want to go to the psych ward. You know what I'm saying? So I had to wait and I had to play that game until he agreed to go. Sounds good. And later, yeah, but it's like. Yeah, but what? But I'm saying it's not, you said if they say they don't want help. But you said you stayed and played the game. That sounds right. Okay. You stayed there. You didn't just walk away. You stayed there. You stayed with them. So bodhisattvas want to stay with the person, but they don't impose their sense of what's right on people.

[84:00]

And when people come in front of me and tell me, right in front of me, that they're going to jump out the window, I say, well, it's different than when I'm not here they go jump out the window. They're actually kind of inviting me in. So I say, oh, let me participate with you then. And maybe I'll step in front of the window. So, you know, because I think you want me to. Is that right? No, get out of the way. Let me get over there. Really? You know, I would... I have, as you can imagine in my line of work, I've had quite a few examples like this. But some people have not come to me and told me that they're trying to commit suicide and haven't done it. But when they come and tell me, I think they're kind of inviting me in. So I don't feel like I'm intruding, but then once I'm in, I kind of just try to stay with them and help them find out what they really want to do. That's what I want to help them find out. And I'm trying to work on it. What do I really want to do?

[85:02]

And what's my story about what's going on here? And do I think I know what's best? And maybe I do. So I have to be kind to that because I'm getting self-righteous. And someone might say, well, isn't it better to act on that self-righteousness rather than not act? And I'm saying... Usually not. Usually it's better to wait and get to a place of not self-righteousness and then make an offering. And you're saying, do I actually do that? And I'm saying, I aspire to it. I'm not saying I always do it, but I aspire to it. And so far, I've never regretted it. I've never regretted when I wasn't self-righteous or when I felt I was and I restrained myself and found a way to let go of that. I have not regretted that. And I have many times regretted what I've done from self-righteousness. I know it's right for you. Well, I regret it right away. And then anything I do based on it, I've regretted. Thank you.

[86:05]

I really appreciate it. I really appreciate your enthusiasm. And so you're welcome to study this vast emptiness no holy, and share with me your attempts to penetrate this teaching, this traditional teaching of the ancestral Zen. And again, basic principle is by taking care of the unreal, we'll realize the real. Our intention will extend to every being that lives. We'll turn it up as well.

[86:52]

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