I wanted to ask you about fear. Can you hear her? When I watch my mind, my mind loves to be in conceptual reality. It loves to figure things out because it feels safe. And to drop into the... The ultimate reality that you're talking about, the paradox, you really get the paradox you're talking about. I find that my mind is only malleable enough, only open enough to let go of its fear when I'm in a state of deeper concentration. And yet you've said that we need to, that if we contemplate these teachings enough, that we'll get it. And there's part of me that feels that my mind won't let go of its fear in its normal state. And so I wondered if you could speak to that, if that's a common experience and...

[01:04]

Yes, it's common. Many years ago, somebody sent me a book by Krishnamurti. I forgot. I knew who he was. But I think at the bottom of the first page, he said something like, wherever you go in the world, everybody you meet is and then i turned the page and i don't know what i thought he was going to say but he said afraid everybody's everybody's afraid until we have basically what's called perfect wisdom there's some fear as long as we believe the appearance of separation between, for example, ourselves and the mountains, or between ourselves and anything, there's some level of fear.

[02:19]

And you're saying that in your ordinary conceptual activity, you notice there's fear. I notice that my mind resists moving into a space, sometimes moving into a space of more emptiness, because it's a bit insecure, it's a bit... Your mind resists moving into a space of emptiness or less substantiality? In its normal, its normality state. As you anticipate that, you feel some fear. And when you're in a state of concentration, you're more open to that insubstantiality? And then you also said, well, how can I receive these teachings if I'm in a state of concentration? Because therein I'm not so much thinking about the concepts. So we receive these teachings. And if the Buddha doesn't say words, the Buddha speaks, and we make the Buddha's speech into words.

[03:31]

So he received the buddhist dharma, the buddhist teaching, in word images. So, oh, Alice is saying, if I'm working with word images where I can actually entertain and think about these teachings, that's nice. But there is, I'm afraid to go into a realm of concentration where I maybe could understand them better and I'm also understanding how would I receive them in a state of concentration. Actually, if you learn them in a state of non-concentration, when you go into a state of concentration, they penetrate that space. And in the concentrated state, the words can appear without being seen as separate, which is one of the main teachings.

[04:37]

So the teaching that things aren't separate, when you receive it, the teaching looks separate. When you're in concentration, the teaching that you're not separate doesn't look separate. It's like there's just the teaching. And again, when you're concentrated, there's one side is illuminated, the other one's dark. So if there's a teaching in concentration, That's all there is, is the teaching. It's not like you and the teaching anymore. Or, there's just you. Which is also the teaching, that there is just you. Because what is you? What you are is the whole universe. That's all you are. It's not you and the universe. So when it's just you, it's just the universe. And when it's just the universe, it's just you. But when you look at the universe, there's no you. And when there's you, there's no universe other than you. So you are aware of a fear of moving into insubstantiality, but there's another fear which you may not be so aware of, which is similar to the fear of if you would let go of your ordinary activity,

[05:55]

that things might be less substantial. So you're actually afraid. In your ordinary state, you're afraid of what it would be like if you were in a different state. But actually, if you were in that state, the fear would be insubstantial. When you're concentrated, you get a little break from fear, actually. But then when you come out of the concentration and return to your discursive activity, which where in there seems to be the discourse implies duality, there's fear again. So in concentration the fear is, the conceptual image of separation is attenuated or almost turned off temporarily. So you get some relief from conceptuality in concentration, which is nice, but it's temporary. As you more and more receive the teachings, they penetrate into you while you're concentrating.

[07:00]

You understand them in your realm of less concentrated discursive thought. Then you practice concentration, and they penetrate you. Even though you're not necessarily thinking of the teaching, the teachings actually penetrate you. But the teachings that penetrate you might not be the verbal representation of them, but what they actually are. non-verbal origin penetrates you when you're temporarily giving up discursive thought. And then, again, we need to use discursive thought in order to receive the teachings somehow. The Dharma is actually touching us all the time. We don't know it. You know, the insubstantiality of things is actually right in front of us all day long, but we can't see it. It's hard to see insubstantiality. But we do usually see substantial things, like substantial people and substantial mountains.

[08:05]

The insubstantiality of the mountains, the water at the base of the mountains, is there all the time, but we don't see it. It's super subtle. And if we would imagine to open to the September, we might be afraid. And so, actually, sometimes they use an image of, I heard the image of, it's like a horse. When you see the horse from a long ways away, you don't feel afraid of it. But when you get close to it, especially a big, young horse, you feel the energy of it. You can sense that the horse can step on your foot, or you can feel somewhat afraid of it. But if you hang around horses for a long time, you get comfortable with it. Emptiness also is substantiality. From a distance isn't so scary. Selflessness, as you get closer to it, you feel the implications of it, the big effects, the big changes that it might bring to your life, which you want, but you're also scared of.

[09:13]

And as you spend more time calmly hanging out with this thing, you get more comfortable with it. So anyway, we first learn the teachings in our ordinary conceptual state. In concentration, you can't really, like, first learn the teachings in a state of concentration so well, because your mind doesn't, you know... Some states of concentration, there's no speech. You can't actually understand speech. Not all states, but... It's actually like if you're trying to concentrate on somebody talking, you might say, would you please be quiet, as we often do, right? People are trying to sit quietly, they don't want somebody talking to them, maybe. Once you concentrate, you can listen to the teaching and maybe not activate your mind. And if you've already listened to the teaching a lot, when you sit, it just arises. You're sitting and these words come up, but you don't move.

[10:18]

It just bubbles up. They just bubble up inside and out. They just bubble up. There they are. But you don't move. And you stay present and calm. And you're open to the words. And then you go from maybe not seeing the word. And when the words arise, you don't even necessarily think that they're external or internal. Or yours or the Buddha's. You're just there. You're not moving in a relationship to them. and you're free of fear at that moment. And then sometimes you become those teachings, and after that, even in a state where you're not really concentrated in that same way, you're free of believing these concepts as anything more than concepts, which you've been told that's all they are, but that hasn't penetrated you yet. So that's why to listen to it over and over and then provide a concentrated body to receive these teachings which have somewhat penetrated us, but let them penetrate more deeply.

[11:30]

So even people who have good understanding of the teachings still practice concentration. So you can understand, there's three levels of understanding. One level of understanding is the understanding that, it's called in Sanskrit, I'll do Sanskrit first, srutamaya prajna is the first level. Chintamaya prajna is the second level. Bhavanamaya prajna is the third level. Sutramaya prajna means the kind of wisdom you have from listening and learning conceptually and discursively. You listen to, you read sutras, you listen to teachers, and at a certain point, your mind changes, and you go from listening to it to somehow understanding it. You have insight. Oh, and this is like something you didn't have before. You listen, you listen, and this wisdom comes. And you've been checking out your understanding all along, maybe, with the text or with the teachers.

[12:36]

The teachings appear as texts and commentaries or texts and meanings or texts and teachers who explain the text to you. That's the way they appear to you. They're not really that way, but they need to be that way for us to receive them. Like, you know, at Zen Center, we chat the hearts of teachers that talk to us about it. Commentaries. And you study them and you study them and then the day comes when wisdom arises where you actually understand at that level. The next level, now that you understand, then you reflect on what you understood in terms of your daily life. And then you notice at some point a new level of understanding comes. That's the understanding that comes by reflection on the earlier teaching, earlier insight from the teaching. The next level, you basically just sit quietly and focus where you realize the mind of samadhi where there's no subject-optic separation and then you receive the teachings so they're not they're in that space of non-conceptual separation and then you there's the teaching as i said before and there's not you in the teaching anymore all you are is the teaching so like for example all you are is the teaching uh everything is just mind

[13:57]

So you actually become the teaching that this life is mine. It's not like I'm thinking that or I heard this. That's all there is. Everything has that teaching written on it. That's the way the teaching settles when you're concentrated. But fear will be there throughout in various ways until the teaching becomes you, which is the same as to say, until the world is not separated from you, there'll be some fear. The Heart Sutra says, without any hindrance, no fear exists. And hindrance refers to... the hindrance of your karma, and the hindrance of some sense of separation. Don't drop away, there's no fear. Until then, practice kindness towards the mountain of fear.

[15:00]

And listen to the teachings. Both. Together. And then, as we enter into concentration, the teachings... We enter into concentration, but If you enter into concentration before you understand the teachings, you won't first understand them in concentration. You have to understand them literally first. Then you have to understand them non-literally. So first you understand them literally, where you can actually talk back to the text, talk to the teacher literally, in words, and say, yeah, is that correct? Say yes, and then, is that correct? Yes. And then, oh, you understand. Even though you could say it back correctly, somehow you realize you understand it. And then, that's literal. Then you understand it non-literally, In other words, you understand how it applies to things which don't literally relate to what you learned before.

[16:02]

Then when you're in concentration, you understand it literally and non-literally, both. But you don't have to think of the words anymore. They've already been understood and transcended. But the transcendence doesn't eliminate the earlier literal understanding. So then that will just arise and become you with no separation in the concentration. Thank you. You're welcome. this is another aspect of something that was brought up earlier someone came and told me that I think something like she works on her posture so that she's upright and she said she noticed that

[17:16]

if she loses her uprightness, immediately delusions arise. I think I mentioned to you already that the way to walk from the top of the mountain down to the bottom is to be upright. As you may know, when you're climbing a mountain there is some tendency, particularly if you're afraid, to lean forward. Most people who are climbing mountains don't have the tendency to lean backwards. Is that right? You don't want to lean backwards because you think you'll fall, which isn't correct. So the tendency going up the mountain is to not want to lean backwards, but want to lean forward because you feel safer if you're leaning forward.

[18:22]

But actually if you lean, it's not recommended to lean forward when you're going up the mountain, right? Because if you lean forward, you might slip. So going up the mountain upright is generally speaking a good idea. When you're coming down, you don't want to lean forward, right? You want to lean backwards, but that's also not recommended. Going down uprightness is also good. So to fully embrace body and mind being upright is recommended. Like if you're sitting, you know, we often say sit upright, right? But now we're saying we're sitting upright but we're sitting upright and we're starting to embrace the mountain in this uprightness. What does that mean, embrace the mountain? It means whatever comes up, you practice being upright with it. If you're upright with it, that's embracing it. If you embrace it, then delusions don't arise.

[19:28]

If you embrace it in uprightness, I want to put in parentheses. Remind me, speed is in parentheses, close parentheses. Next point. When you're upright, it doesn't mean that all kinds of things which are usually considered delusions, that they don't arise. For example, I'm better than that person. might arise. I'm not as good as that person. In other words, judgments might arise as you're sitting. If you're upright, they arise, and you just continue to be upright. You don't lean into them or away from them. If you don't lean into them or away from them, their judgment's just the same, but they're not delusions because you don't believe or disbelieve them.

[20:30]

If you say, oh, that's not true, you just lean a little bit. Or if you say, oh, that's not true, and you say that's just another judgment, and you don't glean, then that comment doesn't really, you know, it isn't really knocking off balance. So to be in the midst of the coming of all phenomena with uprightness, they're not delusions anymore. They're just images which your posture says, I welcome you. I welcome you. And I'm not even going to say I don't believe you, because that's kind of rude. So you let all the guests into your house, but you don't say, welcome, I don't believe you. Or rather, welcome, I don't believe what I think you are. Welcome. I think you're a woman, but I don't believe it." So you don't say that part, you just say, welcome.

[21:32]

And in fact, you do think it's a woman or a man, but you don't believe it. You don't lean into it. You don't lean away from it. You just let it in. And then you do these practices. So this person says, when I'm able to be upright like that with all my attitudes and opinions, then I'm free of delusion. When I'm not upright with the stuff, then the delusions come. But really it's the lack of uprightness that turns everything into delusion. So she's somewhat successful at being upright and she's happy about that. But she says, but I can't have any speed. So, um, If you're upright and then you start walking, you can still be upright, but as you start going faster and faster, as you start sprinting, usually people start leaning when they're sprinting, which actually is fine, but sometimes when they lean they feel that they're not upright.

[22:52]

So I thought of tango where, generally speaking, in a lot of the dance, particularly the follower is spinning, is pivoting a lot. But she has to be upright to do that. If she's a figure skater, sometimes when they're spinning, they bend and do that thing with it. But if you're not on finger skates, generally speaking, if you're upright, it's easier to pivot. So you can actually get going quite fast in this turning if you're upright. So we're talking about being aware of the turning of language and being able to stay present in that turning. So we need to be upright in the turning in order to keep being aware of the turning. Otherwise, we start to become aware of fault, and so on. So it is possible to go from being upright and enter into the speed of the turning.

[23:58]

Well, you already are giddy, but if you're upright, you can spin without getting disoriented. Like those people who do the spins, they learn a way to turn their head so they're spinning but they don't get dizzy. You know what I mean? But you have to train at that. They turn and then they turn their head, right? Boom, boom. They let it go and then they turn it so that their head doesn't get spun too much. So they can go round and round for quite a while without getting giddy. They're excited without getting disoriented, or they're turning without getting disoriented. Most of us, unless we train at being upright and turning, we do get disoriented. Any questions about that? And of course, this is something which this test or this training opportunity is there all day long.

[25:08]

because this language is going on, spin us so we have opportunities all day long to be upright, and then find a way to turn and be upright and find a way to turn so that we can keep being upright even while we're turning. But actually, if you're upright, then you are actually being upright in the turning, because you are turning, unless there's no language. I don't think we're going to be a term without language. I think we're still. But language creates this sense of spin, disorientation. Have you experienced that? Disorientation of language? I'm turning because I've been facing the other side of the room quite a bit.

[26:13]

This side of the room is more tension. How is it over there? I also added a word to that little drawing up there. DCA of all states. Is that right? Yes. So this is a story. The DCA is this English translation of ,, which is one of the central teachings of the historical Buddha. Historical Buddha's teaching is that things arise in dependence on something other than themselves. We arise in dependence on things other than ourselves. Our life arises in dependence on things other than itself.

[27:14]

Suffering arises in dependence on something other than suffering. Suffering arises in dependence on clinging and craving. Suffering ceases in dependence on the absence of clinging and craving. That's dependent co-arising. Suffering arises dependently together with clinging. Suffering ceases dependent on co-arising. The freedom from suffering arises. independence on the absence of king. So, karmic consciousness has consequence. The consequences of karmic consciousness arise in dependence on karmic consciousness. The consequences are the effects, the permeations of our life by our verbal activity.

[28:21]

So we're alive, we speak, and then as we speak we are transformed, and we are transformed into holding the consequences of that speech. And that then, in the next moment, that permeation, that consequence, supports the arising more chronic verbal consciousness and that that's the story that's the story of the pinnacle rising of all states birth and death suffering and then further so that's one teaching that's a teaching of the process of the pinnacle rising And the other, that's not used in the other teaching, but before I tell you, I want to tell you that somebody told me that when they first heard me talk about dependent colorizing, they looked around the room and noticed a lot of other people were looking around the room to see if anybody understood what I was talking about.

[29:30]

Dependent colorizing, anybody else? Uh, uh, But now everybody understands perfectly. That's the tenon core arising. That's the Buddha's teaching of the way things arise. That's the first teaching. The next teaching is What is the nature of all states that have dependently co-arisen? So first is the story of dependently co-arising and the story about what has dependently co-arisen. So what dependently co-arises? Well, all of our experience dependently co-arises. How does it dependently co-arise? independence on the consequence of past karmic consciousness. All states that we experience karmic consciousness, they arise because of consequences of past karmic consciousness. What are those states like? Well, they are threefold.

[30:36]

They are defiled, they are pure, and they are both. All states arise by this process of karmic consequence, its results, and then its results causing more crime. The results are the cause, and the cause is the result. This is the cause. This is the result. This is the cause. This is the result. That's how it goes round and round. And everything that arises has these three characteristics. It's defiled by imagination. It's free of the defilement of imagination. And it basically embraces both. Both of them are part of our life. And so that's the reason for those who are free who have become free of the defiled aspect, who are able to not kill it, but let go of it, and realize the freedom from it, they talk to us without words.

[31:54]

And they tell us, the teaching which will liberate us from the defiled aspect of our life, the enclosing, limited aspect of our life. You tell us how to do that. So that's what this retreat is, is the Buddhas have spoken to us and now we hear these teachings as word images. Is the both happening so that you can see it together? Our basic life is both defiled and pure. Our basic life has an imaginary aspect and a real aspect. Our actual life has a non-existent aspect and a really existent aspect.

[32:59]

It isn't, you know, things don't exist the way they appear to us. Things are not appearances. So our life has an apparent aspect and a real aspect, which is not something substantially real, but it's actually just the absence of the appearances. And it's not just the absence of the appearance, it's the absence of the appearances in our life. So our life has the absence of appearance Our life actually has an aspect which is free of appearance, and our life has an aspect of appearance. It's both. That's our life. That's our life. And if we can understand that our life is free of appearances, even though there are appearances, we're free of them, then we let go of the appearances. which is freedom from suffering. But the appearances are still there, and so once we're free, we can use the appearances to interact with people who are not free of them yet.

[34:09]

Yeah, I see that appearance. That looks like somebody's there, separate. I can see that. But fortunately, I'm free of that appearance. So I'm not afraid to share it with you, or for you to stuff it up my ear, Okay, is that like crystal clear? So words and phrases are karmic consciousness. Words and phrases are discriminating consciousness that discriminates self and other and suffers. And words and phrases liberate So, karmic consciousness liberates karmic consciousness, and it's the words and phrases part. Somehow the Buddha's teaching can get through to us and be transformed in a helpful way into something that it really isn't, but that can realize what it really is.

[35:25]

Those who are free, who have gone beyond words and phrases, talk to those who have not in such a way that they send messages beyond words and phrases, which is transformed into words and phrases. But they got free of words and phrases by using words and phrases with the aid of teachings about words and phrases. They get beyond imagination by using images. And part of the teaching which has been transformed into images is the image of the sentence which says, it's good to be concentrated. There's a sentence in Words and Phrases of be upright, be compassionate, be generous, be careful. These are images of being generous. They're images of being careful.

[36:29]

They're images of being concentrated. We need them in order to realize those states. And that story I often tell is, you know, it's a Woody Allen story about the guy who goes to see a psychiatrist. You know that one? You know that one, Tom? goes to see the psychiatrist and he tells the psychiatrist that his brother thinks he's a chicken. You haven't heard it? Somebody hasn't heard it so I can tell it to you. So this guy, he's probably in Brooklyn, goes to see the psychiatrist and tells the psychiatrist that his brother thinks he's a chicken and the psychiatrist says, why don't you tell him he's not? He says, I need the eggs. So, I wish to be a bodhisattva. And so my brother goes to tell the psychiatrist, my brother wishes to be a bodhisattva.

[37:37]

The psychiatrist says, why don't you tell him he doesn't want to be a bodhisattva? And my brother says, because I need to be liberated. I need him to think he wants to be a bodhisattva. Because if he keeps thinking that, I'll be liberated. So I don't tell him he's not. I mean, I shouldn't say, I don't tell him he doesn't want to be. Now, some brothers actually say they are bodhisattvas. And that's actually not, bodhisattvas don't usually go around saying that they are bodhisattvas. Bodhisattvas, from what I've heard, are mostly saying that they want to be. And somebody might say, you want to be? Are you a bodhisattva? And they often say, I don't know if I am. I want to be a truly compassionate being, living being. And I want to be that way to help all beings. Are you that way? I imagine, I imagine, I imagine that they usually say, I don't know, but I really feel pretty clear that I do want to be.

[38:44]

And then sometimes people say to the person, oh, I think you are Bodhisattva. And then sometimes they say, maybe so. Maybe I am. Like, have you heard of the Dalai Lama? You have, I hope you have. When he was a young boy, they told him that he was incarnation of the bodhisattva, infinite compassion, Avalokiteshvara. They told him that. And he thought that was very amazing that they would tell him that, and that maybe they thought that. Wouldn't that be amazing if he was? And then they told him again and again, and he heard about it in books and stuff. Now I think he's about 77. And recently I heard him say that now he thinks maybe he is. Maybe so. I haven't even said, yes, I am.

[39:47]

That'd be OK for me if he said that. But it's more like, yeah, maybe so. He didn't think that when he first heard it. But after about 65, 70 years, he's like, well, maybe so. So if my brother thinks he's a bodhisattva, my psychiatrist might tell me to tell him he's not. But I'm not going to tell him he's not, because if he keeps thinking he's a bodhisattva, I can keep asking him about bodhisattva practice, because he would probably be willing to tell me about it, right, because he's into it. And as you get into it more and more, you probably get to the state where, actually, I'm not so sure I'm a bodhisattva. I thought I was, but now I'm not so sure what a bodhisattva is. Because I read a book which says, nobody knows what a bodhisattva is except for a Buddha, and I don't think I'm a Buddha. But although nobody knows what a bodhisattva is, that means, except Buddha, that means anybody could be.

[40:52]

So you could, it's possible that you are a bodhisattva, even though you may never have thought of that, or nobody even suggested it to you. I am now telling you it's possible that you are. From my perspective, it's possible any of you are bodhisattvas. Some of you actually might be actual bodhisattvas. In other words, somebody who's taken care of the thought of enlightenment for a long time and pretty much become it. It's possible you are. And so you could think that too about yourself. And if you think you are a bodhisattva, in addition to thinking you are a bodhisattva, you could also think maybe you're a bodhisattva. Which means if you think you are a bodhisattva, you could open to the possibility that you're not. I think bodhisattvas are totally open to the possibility of them not being bodhisattvas. They're totally like, hey, maybe I'm not. If you say to a bodhisattva, you're totally stupid, they're open to what you just said. They don't necessarily believe that they're stupid.

[41:56]

They just are totally open to the possibility of them being stupid. You're totally selfish. They don't necessarily think, oh yes, I am selfish. But they think, well, maybe so. Maybe I'm like totally selfish. You're a tiny bit selfish. Maybe so. You're amazingly compassionate. Maybe so. Okay, you might be right. There might be something to do that. That's what I think bodhisattvas are like. What do you think? Anybody disagree? Does anybody here know what a bodhisattva is? Does anybody here know who the bodhisattvas are? Did you point at me? Not yet. One person knows he must be a Buddha. Only Buddhas know. Okay, anybody want to come up and offer something?

[42:57]

So now if you sit here I can look this way. I can look towards the western mountains. You say what? I say hello. Oh, hello. What? What? You might be a bodhisattva. Welcome. So, I've heard you talk about, you know, wannabe bodhisattvas and bodhisattvas a few times. I don't really understand. What's the difference between a wannabe and a bodhisattva? Well, just imagine somebody's walking down the street and who is, you know, The story is they've been not caring about anybody else for a long time, only care about themselves, and suddenly this marvelous thing happens that the Buddha touches them, and in that communion with enlightenment, they think,

[44:10]

I think I'd like to try a different approach and be concerned for the welfare of others and actually realize wisdom and compassion in order to work and live that way. They think that. And then they forget it for months and months. But that wonderful thing happened. But now they forgot it. That's not a bodhisattva. That's a sentient being. At the moment, they're remembered. Are they bodhisattva? No, I wouldn't say so. I'd say they are somebody who has this amazing thing that's happened to them, which has happened to all Buddhas. So I'm suggesting to you that the center of gravity of opinion of this tradition of the great vehicle is that just when it first appears, it's not quite enough to say the person is a bodhisattva. They have to do a little bit more exercise with that. have to sort of say in the next moment for example well that was good i'm so happy that this thing has come to visit i'd like to take care of this and matter of fact it's still here and uh now how can i how can i take care of this in other words that the practice with it a little while it isn't just when it first arises it's it's nothing's could be finer than this

[45:31]

And even the Buddha is not finer than this because this is actually the Buddha mind. But if you don't practice with the Buddha mind, you're not a Bodhisattva or a Buddha. So just one moment, it is one moment of Buddha, but the Bodhisattva is actually somebody who's taking care of this. The Buddha is just right there for one moment. At that moment, that is the Buddha mind. There's no separation, and you get it. Bodhisattva is somebody who takes care of that. And after you take care of it for a while, it's like, it's possible that somebody has this thought, it arises in them, and then they forget it for a while, and that actually if you ask them if they still are on board for that, they would say no. Not just, oh, I forgot, sorry. I didn't change my mind. They actually do not want to practice it anymore. That's like, I'm not interested in that thing anymore. Bodhisattvas do not turn back from that.

[46:38]

They forget it. But if you take care of it for a while, you still may forget it, but you never turn back after you take care of it for a while. So I don't mean to be rigid about this. I'm just saying When people say, is one moment enough to make your body stop? I say, no, you have to work with it longer than that. And so, then somebody might say, well, how about when you work with it long enough to enter into a formal commitment ceremony? It's getting more reasonable that, you know, if you go through all it takes to get to the ceremony and you go through the ceremony and you say over and over, yes, I will, and you, for example, you make a roll and you sew hundreds and hundreds of times, basically, yes, I will, you're starting to manifest the conditions for a bodhisattva. But in some sense, everybody's accepted from Buddha, but you have to take care of the wish to be Buddha for the welfare of all beings.

[47:45]

You have to take care of it for a while to sort of start to not turn back from that, even including forgetting. So that's what I would suggest. But I don't want to be rigid about it. I'm trying to make a box, right? You're trying to make a box? Yeah, that says Bodhisattva here, and not Bodhisattva here. It sounds like you're talking about a continuum. I am talking about a continuum, yeah. Because everybody's on this continuum, and every step of the continuum, Buddhas are practicing together with everybody at every step of the way. But still, if somebody hasn't actually thought, I wish to live for the welfare of others, and that's actually what I want to do with my life, and I'm actually meeting that. That actually is true for me right now. I don't see any problem with that. I see challenges with it. I know that if somebody says, would you please give me your arm, I might hesitate, but I would like to get to the point where I could say, if it really would help you, let's try to figure out how to do that.

[48:53]

I would like to basically say yes and then go forward from yes. I mean, my feeling is I'd like to give whatever you need if it's helpful. And if it's not helpful, I would like to give you what is helpful, which might be no. I don't want to do that, but that's what I want to do is give you what's helpful. When you actually see that, that is an event, a very important event. And then if you actually wish to realize perfect wisdom and compassion in order to facilitate that, that's a very major event. But even before that happens, the Buddhas are practicing with you. So it takes a long time for somebody to get to the place where this mind arises, and that mind is given the same name as Buddha's mind, but at the same time, as I've often told you, that mind, when it first arises, is like a candle flame, which is a beautiful candle. I wish to realize Buddhahood in order to benefit all beings, and I really mean it, and it's hot.

[49:59]

And now it warms the universe. It's wonderful. One can, you know, we could spend the rest of the day just singing praises of that candle flame. And praises have been sung of the first arising of it by many great Bodhisattvas. It's so wonderful. But at the same time, people are praising and say, it can be blown out by a light wind. It's wonderful, but it's very fragile. If you take care of it for a while, it gets to a point where you blow on it, and it just gets stronger, like a forest fire. It doesn't get blown out. It gets stronger. The more you challenge it, it gets stronger. At that point, you've got a bodhisattva. The more you push it, the more they say, thank you, and let's be careful now. At that point, you've got a bodhisattva. Between there, it's kind of like, well, it's a wonderful thing, and Buddhas are practicing with you, but your practice is kind of weak.

[51:08]

And at what point do we say we've got a bodhisattva? So there's a little bit of ambiguity. Ambiguity is allowed. So let's have some ambiguity. So in East Asia sometimes they say, let's go to such and such a mountain. They say there's a bodhisattva there. You know, all the people who want to be bodhisattvas, who incense are bodhisattvas, they go on a pilgrimage to the mountain where there's actually a bodhisattva, a living bodhisattva. In other words, somebody that you blow on them and they just get warmer. You spit on them and they just get kinder. You know, no matter what you do, they don't get distracted from their practice. That's one kind of bodhisattva. In other words, a well-trained, a well-trained bodhisattva, a well-trained mind of enlightenment. So many of you already have this mind of enlightenment has arisen in you, but has it been well-trained? I don't know.

[52:10]

But let's train it. And there's some ambiguity about it. who is you know who is well trained and who's not and the ambiguity is part of the teaching is that things are ambiguous you know like it's kind of ambiguous whether i'm you or me whether i'm self or other it's kind of ambiguous because really others is really who i am but that's sort of ambing ambiguous that i'm you it's kind of ambiguous kind of weird it's kind of weird it's definitely weird The root of the word weird is destiny. It's definitely weirder that we're ambiguous. We're ambiguous beings because we are what's not us. That's what we really are. We're not at all. What we are is not ourself. Ourself is other. That's part of this teaching. So it's kind of ambiguous what a bodhisattva is.

[53:16]

And I'm sort of discussing this ambiguity with you. That's part of the reason why it's so hard for anybody to say, other than a Buddha who totally understands ambiguity, who the bodhisattvas are. So again, it's really a good idea, I think, to try to remember that whoever you're talking to might be a great bodhisattva and treat him with great respect. And you can treat somebody with great respect and totally disagree with them. Like last night, Lihant got me a little interview with Mr. Scalia, Judge Scalia. On TV? Yeah. I got to see him on TV. Never saw him before. And so there he was, and the interviewer was saying, you know, are you having a... Are you kind of on the outs with Justice Roberts?

[54:19]

Are you guys feeling angry with each other? He said, not at all. Not at all. He said, well, who's your best buddy on the court? He said, my best buddy is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Is that right? Yes, Bader Ginsburg. Yes, Bader Ginsburg. She's my best buddy. And you totally disagree with it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's cool, you know, your best buddy you totally disagree with. I wish Republicans and Democrats could be that way, that they could, you know, that they could, I totally disagree with them and they're my best buddy. I think that's the bodhisattva spirit. Sometimes, sometimes I totally agree with my best buddy. But what's possible is to totally disagree with your best buddy and not have that disagreement undermine your total appreciation for this person who is completely misguided. Like my grandson. He's my best buddy and I totally disagree with him.

[55:21]

on a lot of things. But it doesn't interfere with practicing together, fortunately. And if it ever does, I will work on that. So just to see if I understood what you said. Yeah, let's just see now. Yeah. What I understood is that there is a kind of maybe not noticeable point of no return. And it's like somebody passes that point of no return wherever it happens to be or whatever it is. That they've moved from the aspiration. Yes. Well, there's a point of no return, which could be noticeable or not. There's a point of no return, and there's also a point of non-regression. So you can have no return, but with regression, and then you can have no return with non-regression. So for bodhisattvas and other wise beings, So in the Buddha's path, there's the people who are on the path of individual liberation.

[56:37]

There seems to be such people. And the Buddha supported them. The Buddha helped them attain freedom themselves. And then there is the path of universal liberation. On both paths, there's a point at which you don't return. You don't slip back. You don't go back to before. Your mind changes, and that's it, and you never change back. And after practicing for a long time, you get to a point where you don't need to slip backwards. But most of us, even if we're pretty deeply committed to this path, we still forget and do things which weren't as good as we did yesterday. Yesterday I was upright for like 75 minutes, and today it was like, you know, not at all. That's a kind of regression. I wallowed in leaning all day long today. It was amazing. But I didn't change my mind that I want to practice that way.

[57:40]

So I don't reverse. I don't go back in terms of changing my vow, but I do forget. But there gets to be a point where you don't forget anymore. it can be noticeable. And one of the ways you notice it is because you've been noticing that you've been forgetting a lot. I haven't forgotten for a while. Is that right? And you've watched. So one teacher... Hakuin, an old Zen master in Japan, who helped me start practicing Zen by living in a way that people told stories about him that got transmitted for 300 years. And he said that when he was 65, he stopped forgetting. Really? Yeah, when he was 65. he no longer forgot he remembered all day long but he had to this master had to be 65 before he stopped forgetting so we might have to be 66 or perhaps even 92 so in Soto Zen as one Soto Zen teacher said to me it's good to live a long time because you can get pretty good

[59:03]

And some Soto Zen students say, I'm so sorry. I didn't start when I was 13. I waited all these years. But anyway, I said, no, just try to live a long time so you can get good. If you keep practicing, you can get pretty good eventually. That's really good news. It's good news? I think so, too. And another good news is this teacher named Suzuki Roshi, who many of you have heard of, to make a long story short, he said, after that, which was like a few months before, he was around, when he said this, he was around 64, he said, after that, referring to something that happened quite recently, I really started to practice hard He said that about something when he was 63.

[60:08]

And then one of the students said, but weren't you practicing hard before? He said, yeah, but then I really tried. My teacher is still working to be more thorough in his practice. But he still, you know, a year or so ago, he still was slipping. And he was always trying, because if you don't try, you don't notice you slip. So those who wish to be bodhisattvas have a lot of stuff to slip up on. But they still want to try. More and more thoroughly. Thank you for your questions. That's another thing about Judge Khalil. He has a reputation for asking the most questions on the court. Karen's like Judge Khalil. What's the matter?

[61:11]

You asked a lot of questions. That's good. People appreciate that he asks lots of questions. And I'm not going to say who's like Clarence Thomas. People criticize Clarence Thomas because he asks no questions. And Judge Clear says, leave Clarence alone. People think he's lazy because he doesn't ask any questions. He just sits back in his chair sleeping during them. And people say, and he says, the reason why I don't ask any questions is I don't want to make a lot of noise. It's already so noisy. So Judge Scalia says, leave Clarence alone. And I don't know if any of you are not asking enough questions, but if you are not asking enough questions, we're going to leave you alone. How are you feeling, Karen?

[62:13]

Don't you like Judge Scalia? He's not your hero? I'm just embarrassed. Okay. You're just like Bruce. Now I get a spike. And one more comment, which is totally silly in a way, but partially silly. I have a granddaughter, a Jewish granddaughter, whose name is Naomi. And she's visiting, they call her Noah. And she's visiting recently. And we looked up in the dictionary to see who Naomi was. That's her regular name. And she didn't know before, but Naomi is the mother-in-law of Ruth. And Naomi is the mother-in-law of compassion. So now my granddaughter, oh, I'm the mother-in-law of compassion. So we could have a, how about a 15-minute break today?

[63:14]

Is that comfortable for you? Because then we can come back at 1 and have two full, is it end at 3? Then we have two full hours. Is that okay? If you can't keep up by 1, will still think that you might be a Bodhisattva.

[63:31]

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