I'd like to say again that when Manjushri asked the Buddha about the transformation of the basis in the two kinds of sages, those who are become awakened and liberated by hearing the Buddha's teaching and those who are somehow awakened and liberated without even hearing the Buddha's teaching in the present life. So Manjushri says, is their transformation of the basis suitably referred to as the Dharma body? And the Buddha says, they are not spoken of in this way. How are they spoken of? Their transformation of the basis is referred to as bodies of liberation. And again, I could ask you, are the bodies of liberation of the sages the same kind of body of liberation as the Buddha?

[01:17]

The body of liberation of these sages is similar and equal to the body of liberation of the Buddhas. But then the example of a difference is like the difference between a person who is, their main problem is that they feel that their life is in bondage to birth and death. Their life, they're caught in this process of coming and going. They're caught in the suffering of birth and death. and then they're released. And the body they have then is their liberation body. The Buddhist, however, is more like a great sovereign who is in bondage. And it's not so much they're in bondage to birth and death, but their bondage to birth and death is, more importantly, hindering them from performing their great job

[02:29]

So they have problems with birth and death too, but they also can't do their work of serving the nation. So when the dharma body is realized, not only are they free of birth and death, but the hindrance to their serving all beings is also removed. That's the difference between the dharma body and the liberation body. That's why the Dharma body is inconceivably superior. It has unlimited good qualities for benefiting beings. That's why one might aspire to be a Buddha rather than just a liberated sage. Liberated sages are happy and they're also very beneficial in this world and we wish them to help us. They can help us.

[03:31]

They can show us a lot. But we also may aspire to be Buddhas. I also wanted to bring up another question by Manjushri, which is, Bhagavan, what are the characteristics of manifest complete enlightenment of the Tathagatas, the Buddhas? What are the characteristics of their turning of the wheel of the teaching? And what is their great parinirvana? And the Buddha says, Manjushri, their manifest complete enlightenment, their turning of the Dharma wheel, and their great parinirvana all have a non-dual character. This means that they are neither manifestly

[04:38]

completely enlightened, nor are they not manifestly completely enlightened. They neither turn the wheel of Dharma, nor do they not turn the wheel of Dharma. They neither have great power in nirvana, nor do they lack great power in nirvana. This is because the Dharmakaya, the Dharma body of the Buddhas, is very pure. and the Nirmanakaya are fully revealed. This is because the Dharma body is very pure. So it's pure of... It makes the Buddhists pure in the sense that they are neither completely enlightened nor not completely enlightened. They're pure. They're undefiled by complete enlightenment.

[05:42]

They're that pure. I mean, not so much they're that pure, but the Dharma body is that pure. But also, another reason why you can't say that in their purity they're not completely enlightened, because there's all these transformation bodies revealed that are many kinds of enlightenment, many kinds of manifesting for the welfare of beings, many kinds of turning Dharma wheels for the welfare of beings. So the enlightenment of the Buddha is pure and free of the enlightenment of the Buddha. The Dharma body is so pure that it's free of enlightenment, of perfect nirvana, and of turning the Dharma wheel.

[06:46]

But also, it's free of not turning the Dharma wheel. It doesn't have to not turn the Dharma wheel. It doesn't have to exclude turns around the wheel. It doesn't have to not have perfect enlightenment. It doesn't have to not have parinirvana. As a matter of fact, transformation bodies do have parinirvana, all kinds of perfect nirvana to encourage people, all kinds of teachings to encourage people. The dharma body allows the nirmanakaya The Nirmanakaya keeps the Dharma body pure, so you can't even say the Dharma body does or does not have complete enlightenment. Because it doesn't really have either. Yes? When I hear this teaching, I have to confess that I think the meaning of this teaching is that the Dharmakaya has no characteristics

[07:55]

It's pure of anything, any way we would characterize it, because it is characterless. And I would like to check that out with you, that there are no characteristics of the Dharma body. And also, it's kind of interesting that it's something, if that is so, that it's something without characteristics, we think is pretty terrific. Pardon? We think it's pretty terrific. If it doesn't have any characteristics? That which has no characteristics is great. It's the chasm, yeah. Well, I hope you don't feel disappointed that it does have characteristics. Actually, I almost believe. But its characteristics are the well-established transformation of the basis. based on previously completely cultivating the bodhisattva practices in the ten stages.

[09:01]

But also, it has the characteristic of being inconceivable, and the characteristic of inconceivable is very similar to not being a characteristic. it's really not a characteristic, it's characterized by inconceivability, so that it's almost like that's not a regular characteristic. Thank you. Then Manjushri says, Bhagavan, how is it that the transformation body, the Nirmanakaya, are known to come forth from the Tathagata so that sentient beings generate merit through viewing, hearing, and revering them? How is it that the Nirmanakaya come forth from the Tathagata And the tathagata, what's the tathagata? The tathagata is the well-established complete transformation of the basis.

[10:06]

The tathagata is that, and that is a characteristic of the dharmakaya. So how is it that this tathagata, this dharma body, sends forth this transformation body so that sentient beings can have something to generate merit through viewing, hearing, and revering these bodies. And the Buddha says, a transformation body comes forth due to intensely observing the Tathagata and also because the transformation bodies are the blessing of the Tathagata. So this transformation body comes forth because somebody is intensely viewing the Tathagatas and also because the Tathagatas wish to give the blessing.

[11:14]

It isn't just that the transformation body comes forth from this reality body as a blessing. It's also that somebody is intently observing the tathagata, is intently observing the what? The dharmakaya, is intently observing the well-established transformation of the basis. It's the intent observation together with the blessing of the Tathagata that brings forth something in the world for us to relate to and generate merit and virtue. And this point is here in this Indian text But in Chinese Buddhism, this point becomes, I would say, more well-known and more highlighted than I've seen it in Indian Buddhism.

[12:30]

And it's very important in Zen. This is called sometimes the crossing of the paths of the inquiry and response. Literally it's inquiry and response pass-cross. The inquiry or the intense interest and observation on the part of living beings, the intent focus on the Buddha, the Buddha's teaching, on the possibilities, of realizing this great reality body, that interest crosses paths with the beneficence of the Buddhas. The crossing of that path is what brings forth into the world, things like Transformation Body Buddhas, which brings forth the three treasures.

[13:40]

All the teachings and all the practices that we can see in the world come from this interaction. The Buddhas don't just send it. I mean, they're sending it, but it doesn't have any effect unless somebody's looking at it. So the combination, the spiritual communion, is highly observed in East Asian Buddhism, more so than I can tell, at least in the traces we have of Indian Buddhism. This is one of the places where I can find it, but I don't see it that much this interactive side. Sometimes even Buddha is presented as the Buddha is just sending these light rays into the world. Well, there's that side too. But the light rays is one thing. But when the light rays come, it's really because somebody's interested in the Buddha and the Buddha's wishing to send the light rays.

[14:46]

It's that interaction in the background of these light rays. Otherwise we don't see them because the Dharmakaya is beyond the coming and going of light rays. It's beyond the appearance and disappearance of light rays. And So there's more, but I want to give you some time to respond to this outrageous and amazing suggestion. Yes? If you just were talking about, was that practice rules? Is the intense inquiry, is that related to practice? Well, in a way, the practice of the sentient being and the realization of the Buddha when they cross, we see Buddha in the world.

[15:50]

We see the Buddha's teaching in the world because of the meeting of focus on practice and realization. That's one way to talk about it. Yes? I was thinking about a distinction you made in another context, and I wonder if it applies to this relationship of process and presence, if we can see the nirmanakaya as a process body and the dharmakaya as a presence body, since its presence is elicited by the process. its presence is elicited by the process? No. The process interacting with the presence manifests things and manifests activities. But the presence is there even if there's not this request.

[16:57]

But there's no relationship. Yeah, it's just, you know, it's just vast purity, vast reality, full of bodhisattva vows, and it's a presence, but this presence doesn't really manifest, it never manifests. However, it responds to certain processes to cause manifestations which are completely in accord with it. It wants these manifestations because people need them. But we never lose the pure, uncommitted reality body. It never gets involved in coming and going. it doesn't descend from coming and going or arise from coming and going.

[18:00]

It continues to be beyond any kind of fabrication. And this beyond any kind of fabrication is the fruit of somebody working through fabrication for a long time by practicing these perfections in all these stages. that produces this ability to be totally unfabricated and unmoving and unelaborated. But this thing also, the thing that made this happen was a commitment to the welfare of beings and a willingness to deal with the problems of being through these practices to produce this fruit, this reality body. Now this reality body is a resource and somebody has to contact it to produce this other body, which is the part which is an emanation or brought forth from this pure body, which is inconceivable

[19:10]

and then the pure body doesn't change into something conceivable, it produces another body which is conceivable. It gets transformed, but it doesn't stop being that way. So the dharmakaya and the nirmanakaya coexist. The nirmanakaya is the part we can relate to and By focusing on that, we're indirectly focusing on the dharmakaya. And that brings forth more nirmanakaya for us. This interaction is worthy of further investigation. And case 52 of the Book of Serenity, the ancestor in our lineage named Saushan, disciple of Dungshan, he's asked, or he asked somebody, he says, or did somebody ask him, that the dharma body is like vast space, but it can respond to living beings, like the moon reflected in the water.

[20:38]

Now here the moon reflected in the water applies. So people have a reflection to work with. And then he asks, how do you understand the principle of what? Response. Yeah, how do you understand the principle of response? How does this dharma body that's like vast space, how does it respond to beings? Is that about the pillow at night? That's a different one. That's a different one. Yeah. So I think the person who was asked says... No, I think the monk is asking the question. Yeah. Some monk is asking Sasan, because everybody knows that Dharmakaya is like vast space. completely free of elaboration and any kind of fabrication, right?

[21:42]

You all know that. That's well known. Well, if that's the case, and I've heard also that this vast pure dharma body can respond to the needs of beings. What's the principle of response? So now I think, yeah, that's Saushan's question. And the monk gives a really good answer. And the old answer used to be, it's like the donkey looking in the well. That's the old answer. Now it turns out that that was a scribal error. which has been discovered and turns out that the word for donkey is similar to the word for pulley.

[22:52]

A donkey looks in the... A pulley. Yeah, so on the top of a well you often have a pulley, right? That the rope goes over and you pull on it and the bucket comes up and down. So there's a character for pulley that's very similar to the character for donkey. So now it's been suggested that it should be, the answer should be, it's like the pulley looking at the well. And that's the answer that the monk gives Saushan. And Saushan says, that's pretty good, that's 80%. And the monk says, well, what about you, teacher? And he said, it's like the well looking at the pulley. I like the donkey.

[23:53]

We have other stories about donkeys. I also have some really nice drawings of donkeys with my calligraphy on the bottom, which I had to, what am I going to do with these? They're all loving. Don't believe in new fabrication. So now your meditation on the principle of response is enriched. Those of you who have become familiar with the workings of donkeys and wells and wells and donkeys can now open your mind to pulleys and wells. Those of you who never heard of wells or donkeys or pulleys... So I hope to discuss with you this principle of response more at future meetings. I thank the people at Tassar for letting me leave the monastery and come and meet with you. excuse me for saying so, I do hope that you flourish in my absence.

[25:00]

And I hope you flourish in my presence. But how much absence is the right amount? That's the question. I thought three months maybe was a little long, so I came back. We thank the people at Passama. You might tell them that. You could tell them. And so I'll come back again to meet with you on November 7th? 6th. I'll come back a day early to meet you. And also I think that the December meeting should be December 4th, not December 11th. So... There's a Sashin going on. I know. So you might not... If you go to Sashin, if you go to Sashin, you'll have trouble getting over here. Sorry. So I'm glad I could see you before the end of the year and also before the end of my life.

[26:20]

Mm-hmm. And yours. And you have our good wishes. Thank you. Flourishing in and out of our presence. And I'll keep working on this chapter, this amazing, this chapter about this amazing thing, the reality body of the Buddha, the deeds of the Buddha. the definitive instruction about the deeds of the Tathagata. I'll keep working on this a little bit more and maybe next time we can talk more about it. Thank you very much for coming today and taking care of this practice place. Thank you Nina and Bernard for cleaning the deck so that it's not quite so slimy and maybe people won't slip on it so much.

[27:23]

Thank you Norbert for continuing to bring the land to peaceful abiding. Thank you Eileen for organizing. Thank you Elenia for taking good care of many things. And thank you to whoever wrecked the refrigerator. Who did that? So thank you all. Please take care. May our intention equally extend to every being and living. Thank you.

[28:10]

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