I've been using the word meditation in a broad sense to include various basic practices. So one of the practices which people often think of as meditation is the practice of developing tranquility. Tranquility is a is actually a state of consciousness. But there's a practice of developing it. And that one kind of meditation practice is a practice which, when you practice it, it comes to fruit as tranquility. You can practice tranquility even if your state of mind is not tranquil. Does that make sense? Yes?

[01:02]

Yes. So, for example, if your mind is not tranquil, if you practice the other meditation practices, which are not usually considered meditations, they promote tranquility. For example, if your mind is agitated and you practice generosity in the midst of your agitation or towards your agitation, that tends to calm. Does that make sense? Just like other people, if you feel fairly calm and you meet someone who's agitated, if you're generous towards their agitation, that'll help you be calm with them and it'll also help them be more calm with their agitation if you're generous towards it. Sometimes people who are agitated, when they meet someone who is calm, they feel even more nervous. Like, you know, they feel maybe like they're offending the calm one. Maybe I should go someplace else, so I won't bother the common one.

[02:02]

But the common one can say, no, no, please stay. You're welcome to be here. One time, actually, I remember I was with Suzuki Rishi, and he asked me to come and teach him some chanting practices which I had learned from another Zen teacher. He wanted to listen to me chant. So I actually came to him because I wanted him to watch me practice. But then when he asked me to, in some sense, perform these chants in front of him, after I performed them for a little while, he gave me some feedback, and then I thought, I'd rather, I want to go someplace else. I didn't want all his attention, even though I had made great efforts to get myself in a situation to receive his attention.

[03:05]

Sometimes when he gave it to me, I wanted it to be someplace else. So I said to him, I didn't want to take any more of your time. Thank you. You've given me enough of your attention. I'll go downstairs. Please stay. So he was quite calm with my... my kind of agitation and my kind of wishing to get away from all the scrutiny from the person I most wanted scrutiny from. But sometimes when we're with the person we most want scrutiny from, we're afraid that if we perform certain acts they won't ever want to give us any more scrutiny. You're going to get this unskillful student. You're fired. Of course, that did not happen. But we sometimes are worried about that. So with our own state of consciousness and other people's consciousness, if we notice a lack of tranquility, being generous towards it contributes to the tranquility.

[04:17]

And then also being careful of it. Agitation is something to be careful of. Like if you're trying to balance and you notice you're agitated, you should be careful with your agitation, otherwise you may fall. So being ethical with our lack of tranquility is conducive to tranquility. So in that sense, giving and ethics are part of developing tranquility. And patience, too. Patience and these first three practices of giving ethics and patience are also contributing to wisdom, but first they contribute to, in a sense, first they contribute to tranquility. So when you're sitting or when you're sitting, we might ask, is this sitting quietly? Is this sitting still? Is this giving?

[05:19]

Do I wish it to be given? When you're sitting, do you wish your sitting to be given? Is giving alive in your sitting? Looking to see if it is itself could be seen as a gift. But I say to you, when I'm sitting, which I do quite a bit of, I hope that I'm clocking in, giving time. I hope the practice of giving is living while I'm sitting. I want it to be. And if I'm sitting having an interview with someone, sitting quietly with them, listening to them tell me about their practice, I'm giving them my attention, I'm giving them my listening, I'm giving them my body, which is sitting there. I'm giving them my mind. I'm practicing giving while I'm sitting in interviews with people. I want that.

[06:21]

I mean, I say I am, but I don't know if I am, but I want it to be the case. And also I'm trying to be just, practice justice when I'm listening to people talk about their practice life. And also when they're talking to me about their non-practice life. confessing to me, I didn't practice, I didn't practice, I didn't practice, that I'm giving them more attention and I'm giving them more practice of justice. And I'm being patient with them. Sometimes people come to me and tell me that they really are grateful to me for being patient with them. And when I say that, I often think, well, what about the wisdom? But the animals never say that. They just say, patience. If I'm patient enough, they'll probably thank me for my wisdom someday.

[07:23]

I have another story now about sudden awakening. This is a story later in history. This is a story that took place in Tang Dynasty. Maybe not Tang Dynasty. Maybe right after the Tang Dynasty in the Song Dynasty. This is a story about... These are names of ancestors. And these are stories about one ancestor. His name is Tong'an Guanjue. Tong'an Guanjue. And his student is Liangshan Yuanguan.

[08:43]

This is a story about them. So Liangshan studied with Peng Lun. He serves his teacher as attendant. One of the ways to open our mind to wisdom is by serving the Buddhas. Now, it's hard these days to find a Buddha. We had a Buddha, apparently, we had a Buddha 2,500 years ago who lived in India. Since that time, in a way, we have a little bit of a Buddha problem. And can't shit in your head.

[09:50]

No. No Buddha problem. What an act of the base of the whole universe. Yeah. The thing is, there's this thing called Buddhahood. While I've been sitting here, occasionally, out of the corner of my eye, I wonder who that lady is with the good posture. I'm talking about this one. This lady here. with a good posture. But now I'm wondering about this lady. And then I realized the lady with good posture is the Buddha. The Lotus Sutra teaches that the Buddha is present, that Buddhas are present in this world. But we have trouble seeing them, most of us. And it explains that if we practice in a certain way, we will see the Buddhas. Unless we practice in a certain way, we will not see the Buddhas.

[10:55]

And sometimes we see the Buddha, but we think it's a lady with good posture. And one of the ways to practice so that you can see Buddhas is to serve a teacher. as though the teacher were a Buddha. Not to delude yourself into thinking the teacher is perfect. Like, I didn't think Sosuke Barshi was perfect. And he didn't tell me he was perfect. Matter of fact, he said, you know, after that I really tried to practice. I didn't think he was perfect. Matter of fact, again, one of the early talks I heard him give, he said, I got invited. And I thought, uh-oh. The next week you said, I'm Buddha. I said, that's better. But still, I remember the previous week.

[11:58]

And also, I heard him make certain comments about his wife, which didn't make me feel that he was perfect. And I didn't mind that he wasn't perfect because he still was somebody I really wanted to serve. And I wanted to make myself available for service to him. And I think that really helped me, really helped me open to the wonder, the wonderful, how wonderful the teaching is to serve him, really helped me. And opening to how wonderful the teaching is really helped me serve him. So this is a story about a monk who lived in China more than a thousand years ago who served his teacher as attendant. It's a wonderful opportunity to serve a teacher, to attend a teacher, even if the teacher is not enlightened.

[13:04]

And especially if the not enlightened teacher tells you that she's not. And you say, I still want to serve you. Really? Yeah. Because serving you will benefit all beings. Because serving you will open my mind to wisdom. It says in certain scriptures, oh, who gets to understand reality? Well, people who serve many teachers, people who serve many Buddhas. They understand the teachings. So here's a story of someone who served a teacher as attendant. And the attendant, the Chinese characters for attendant, two characters, which mean holding a person, a person who holds stuff, a person who carries stuff. Sometimes the teachers are young and strong and they can carry stuff themselves, but they give somebody else a chance to serve them by carrying their stuff.

[14:10]

Sometimes they're older and can barely walk. They can't carry their stuff. They need crutches or canes or whatever. So they need an attendant to carry their stuff. Anyway, this is a story about Liangshan who carried Tong'an's stuff. The stuff he carried was his robe and his bowl. The robe he carried was called patch robe. In the tradition of Buddha, at a certain point, Buddha was requested to make a uniform for his monks. And he talked to his attendant about what kind of uniform, and they were walking along one time and they saw a rice field in India, and the Buddha thought, that would make a good pattern for our uniform, for our robe. We could make our robe kind of with patterns like a rice paddy. So the uniform they wore was called a patch robe, which was made of discarded cloth, which was cleaned and dyed sort of the same color and then patched together into this pattern.

[15:22]

So this became known as a patch robe, which the monks wore. And now, later, non-monks can also wear this patch robe. So Liangshan was carrying the patch robe for his teacher, and they went up to the hall, like here, and the teacher was going to give a talk, so the attendant handed the teacher the patch robe, and as the teacher received it, the teacher said to his student, what is the business under the patch robe? At that moment, he was actually holding his patch robe over his head, probably, receding respectfully. So the question could be understood, what business is the teacher up to under this robe? But also, the attendant was wearing the patch robe. He was asking the attendant, what is the business under the patch robe?

[16:25]

What's the business under the robe that monks wear? What are they up to? What's their business? That was the question. And I calligraphed that for you. In fact, if you want a copy of that question, here it is. This is the question in Chinese. The question is, what is the path for under business? That was the question. supposedly asked a long time ago by the teacher. And the attendant did not say anything. He just stood there with his teacher. And then the teacher, Dhamma, said, to be practicing the Buddha way and not reach this realm, what realm?

[17:31]

This realm of business under the patch road. To practice the Buddha way and not reach, not enter this realm is most painful. And then the teacher said to the attendant, now you ask me, So then the student asked the teacher, what is the business under the patchwork? And the teacher said, intimacy. Then Liang Shan woke up. to intimacy, or rather the teacher and the disciple together woke up to this business of intimacy.

[18:34]

And with tears of joy, Yangshan prostrated himself to his teacher, and the teacher understood and said, Now that you're awakened, do you understand? Can you demonstrate it? And Liang Shan said, yes, I can. And the teacher asked him, what is the business under the patch robe? And Liang Shan said, intimacy. And the teacher said, intimate intimacy. Or intimacy, intimacy. So the work of the practice is to realize that we're not separate from each other, to meditate with our deluded mind, to meditate with the mind that sees others as not intimate, as separate from us.

[19:48]

to work with the mind which creates this sense of separateness, and to be kind with it and calm with it until we wake up to that illusion as being just an illusion. And without even taking the illusion away, understanding intimacy. And then, once we wake up to it and understand it, to continue to practice with the deluded mind, which is no longer our mind and is not now others' minds. It's just a deluded mind. It doesn't really belong to anybody. It isn't really here or there or in between. And yet there is this mind which conjures up false impressions of separateness. And then once we are disabused of it, we continue to practice with it. which makes Buddhas.

[20:52]

So Liang Shan practiced meditation so that he could open to this teaching, and then when he opened to it and entered it, then he practiced meditation for the rest of his life. with his students. And it's in this way that the enlightenment is transmitted through intimacy. and through encouraging people to take care of their deluded mind so that they can open and enter the intimacy, and then from the intimacy to continue to take care of the deluded mind, because the deluded mind does not evaporate at the point of awakening. It evaporates right at the point of awakening, but the awakening doesn't last.

[22:05]

However, once it's happened, one doesn't lose the understanding. It arises again with delusion. And then the two are, again, they work on each other. The deluded mind now challenges the awakened mind. Previously, the deluded mind was challenging the deluded mind only. Now the deluded mind challenges the deluded mind and the awakened mind. And the deluded mind just keeps turning on itself into the awakened mind, keeps transforming the deluded mind, again, making the Buddha. So I offer you this calligraphy if you'd like a memento of this story. You can receive it here at the end of the day if you like.

[23:08]

Any feedback or questions? Please come, Sylvia. Is your name still Sylvia? It is. This is in reference to what you were talking about in the morning. Can you hear me? Excuse me. Could you speak up, Susan? Yes. I wanted to go back to what you were talking about in the morning, and that was, as I understood it, and this is what I want to know if I really did understand. Okay. I think in my mind I had always thought of the subconscious as a kind of a dump, kind of a solidified

[24:20]

a place where, you know, like that place out in the ocean where all the currents have come together and the plastic and everything has all kind of been logged together? Yeah. But that's kind of how there was this, somewhere in there was this solid mass of sadness and repression and guilt and disappointment, all that stuff. And that it would be fine for... Before you say too much, could I comment? It's not the storehouse or dump of his sadness and depression and what else? Belief and also goodwill. Also goodwill and happiness? No. It is. It's the storehouse, but it's not really the storehouse of those things. It's the storehouse of of the consequence of those things.

[25:21]

So a moment of grief or a moment of anger, a moment of sadness, a moment of shame, a moment of happiness, a moment of goodwill, those things exist consciously. Goodwill is a conscious phenomenon. And the karma that goes with that goodwill exists in the present and then it goes away. But before it goes away, it transforms the unconscious, according to this teaching. So if a conscious thought of goodwill arises, right as it arises, it transforms the unconscious. And then the unconscious, but the transformation of the unconscious is not that there's a thought of goodwill in the unconscious. there is the seed of goodwill in the unconscious. So the thought of goodwill perfumes, we say, or permeates or impregnates the unconscious.

[26:28]

And then there's a seed which can support the arising of another thought of goodwill. So the unconscious carries the result of wholesome, skillful thought and unskillful thought. But it doesn't have the skillful thoughts in it, or unskillful thoughts in it, because skillful thoughts and unskillful thoughts, we usually use that to refer to conscious states. So a skillful thought is usually talking about skillfulness towards a particular object, like a person, or a self, or a color. So conscious activity is conscious and clearly associated with a particular object, the storehouse consciousness. is the scenes for the conscious state, but it itself does not look at particular sense objects, like colors and words and ideas. It is the support for all those things. But it's not the state. The unconscious is karmically neutral, and the unconscious is also undefiled.

[27:35]

But all the defiled states, which can be wholesome and unwholesome and neutral, cognitively, all those defiled states, which are defiled by ignorance, they are supported by something that's undefiled. Consequences of defiled activity are not defiled, even though the consequences support the arising of defiled states. So we've got to partly agree with the teaching. It is the kind of place where they all go, but it isn't them, it's the consequences of them. And the consequences of them is that they support the arising of more of them. I think the understanding that I had that was exciting to me was that rather than it being kind of a solid state, it's a very mutable state. And so your picture of the lotus, so it's mud.

[28:38]

Nothing is solid. Everything is interdependent. Everything is substantial. All things depend on... conditions other than themselves. Nothing can be grasped of itself, including our unconscious. The unconscious is infinitely transmutable. This unconscious supports all unskillful states. It supports all skillful states. It supports all karmically neutral states. It supports all defiled states, but it also is the support for all purified states and all transcending states. They all arise from the same mind. The Buddha mind is made from this mud, which is the consequence of living beings' action. But all unskillful and skillful states, all wholesome and unwholesome states, are also based on this unconscious.

[29:39]

Our skillful activity, our unskillful activity, is based on our past activity. And our past activity must be neutral in order to support skillful and unskillful. And it is neutral, according to this teaching, so it can support wholesome karmic and unwholesome karmic and neutral karmic. and it supports all defiled states, but it also supports the purification of these karmic states by integrating the teaching, by letting the teaching come in and support it so these active states can receive more teachings and can apply the teachings right in the middle of their activity, which then again promotes the seeds for more purification of worldly karmic states but also supports the support for states which are not even karmic which are transcendent all this is supported by this unconscious it's always being transformed it's always being substantial but at a certain point it starts to receive dharma rain and the dharma rain doesn't actually touch it one of the principles is that the

[31:04]

antidote and the antidoted are not the same. So the dharma antidotes to this support for all defiled states, the dharma antidote is not the same as the antidoted. So the thing gets changed without the dharma actually becoming it. But this integration of the dharma with this antidoted storehouse unconscious supports states which are going towards complete transformation and supports the receiving of teachings from the previous complete transformation, which we call the Buddhists. The Buddhists are sending us these teachings and we are receiving now, more or less, each of us in our own way. It gives me a lot more hope, because I think I'd always thought that it was going to kind of go down about this far, and then it was going to reach this unconscious, which was just kind of impermeable.

[32:18]

But you're telling me that it's quite different, and I understand, and I appreciate that. There can be a complete transmutation, a complete transformation, and that is called Buddhahood. Any other feedback at this time? Yes, this time. Whenever I have an understanding that enables me to behave in a way that I know will give me greater happiness in the future, even though I may still have a period of difficulty staying in that place,

[33:27]

I have a lot of joy just knowing I don't have to do what I used to do, and a greater sense of freedom from being bound to the old way. Can you tell us more about the joy of practice? The contemplation you just related is actually kind of an example of the fourth practice I was talking about, which is the practice of contemplating behavior. And as a result of contemplating it, you feel an aspiration arising to practice in a certain way. And then you feel a joy at the prospect of what you're aspiring to. And this aspiration leading to this joy fuels the practice. So this contemplation of the possibility of practice, the joy of practice, and also, you didn't mention it, but also the unhappiness of not practicing, that contemplation derives to an aspiration.

[34:47]

And as we apply the aspiration to behavior, we feel joy at the behavior. And that joy is the energy which which is the effort to do these practices. And why is it so easy to forget the joy and think that practice is difficult? Because of this storehouse consciousness which is full of seeds for thoughts like, practice is too hard, or practice should be easy, or practice may be good but I'm not good enough for it, or I'm too good for practice, I don't need to practice anymore, I've done enough, it's time for me to retire. Such thoughts we've had in the past. or we saw on TV. And when you hear a certain thought and you listen to it and think it, listening to a certain thought transforms your unconscious. There's consequences of listening to certain thoughts, but at the same time, I'm not saying close your ears to certain thoughts, I'm just saying

[35:56]

Learn to listen to thoughts. If you listen to certain thoughts, even negative thoughts, in a proper way, that transforms your mind in a different way than listening to unwholesome thoughts in another way. And because in the past we've listened to unwholesome thoughts and we've attached to them or rejected them, they've had big impact on us. And that impact is now supporting the arising of thoughts which distract us from what at other times, and even at the same moment, sometimes you say, why am I doing something that isn't that good for anybody, except maybe the people who make money selling poison that I'm eating? And you think, well, no. It's good that I'm eating poison because I'm supporting these people. It depends on me eating. But at the same time, I could actually just buy the stuff and not eat it. I'm just going to go support these people by buying poison and find some way to feed it to a funky guy who could do something good with it.

[37:09]

So, but when we do think these distracting thoughts, it's because we thought of these distracting thoughts in the past. And also this explains why right after thinking how good it is to do something good, the next moment we get distracted, because the way, the pattern by which our unconscious mind comes to fruit as conscious states of defilement, we're not in control of the maturation timing. Many causes and conditions make these things come up. We can't control it. That's why we can think, good, [...] and then bad, [...] bad. And how could that be? Well, because this thing is not under our control. And it's also not under our control to practice with our lack of control. But in fact, the theory is that if you practice with your lack of control, it isn't that you'll get under control, it's just that even without being under control, you will eventually become consistent.

[38:14]

But not by trying to control yourself, because trying to control yourself is not very kind. And also, it's not in accordance with reality. So giving up trying to control yourself and instead becoming compassionate to yourself including understanding that you can't control yourself to be compassionate to yourself, understanding that you can't control yourself to be compassionate to yourself, and continuing to want to be compassionate to yourself, will eventually lead to consistent compassion. And again, there is a certain optimistic thread in Buddhism which has become popular because it's so optimistic. And the optimistic thread is we will become a Buddha. We will eventually become consistent, but not by getting ourselves under control. We're going to because we're going to hear that teaching, and we're going to hear that teaching, and we're going to hear that teaching, and I'm saying it over and over to you.

[39:17]

And you're letting me say it over and over. And eventually it's going to be said over and over in your head all the time. And that happens, that's the way Buddha thinks. Buddha's constantly... about how to help everybody become Buddha. And we will eventually be thinking like that all the time too, without worrying whether we can think about anything else at the same time. But, you know, would I be able to drive if I kept thinking how can I help all beings enter the great way? Would I be able to drive and still do that? Well, actually, I tested it, and you can actually drive. And think that thought at the same time. And you can do quite a bit, you know. You can have many consciousnesses at once. Now, you can't think, I don't want anybody to be happy at the same moment that you think, I want everybody to be happy. You can't do those two at the same time. But you can say, I'm on Highway 101, or you can see the sign for Highway 101. At the same time, you think, may all beings on Highway 101 attain Buddha.

[40:23]

You can do those two at the same time. So you will be able to get along, even if you're a Buddha. Don't worry. It's not going to really crack your style that much. It's only going to crack your needlework. But not in a mean way. Just in a kind of like mod lotus kind of way. You know what I mean? The evil will not be eliminated. It will just be the basis for compassion. And actually compassion can grow on evil. Compassion doesn't like evil, doesn't dislike evil, loves evil. Evil are compassion's grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, and so on. And then, as a result of being kind to all kinds of evil, we have a Buddha eventually.

[41:30]

And everybody's going to participate in this Buddha-making until everybody is Buddha. That's one. Of course, no one, I shouldn't say, I shouldn't say no one or anything because then someone will say hi. But anyway, this is the message of the Lotus Sutra and it's in the background of the Zen school, this Lotus Sutra. And there was a bodhisattva called Never Despising. who walked around, and everybody he met, he said, I do not despise you. You will become Buddha. And people will be irritated with that. Who do you think you are to tell me that you don't despise me and that I'll become Buddha?

[42:34]

And some people gave him a real hard time and threw rocks at him. And he said, I don't despise you. You will become Buddha. And they threw more rocks at him. And he became a Buddha. That's one of the more difficult ways to become a Buddha. I don't think you became Shakyamuni Buddha, but I'm not sure. Does anybody know? I don't think that. You became some other Buddha. There's lots of Buddhas right now. The historical Shakyamuni Buddha went away, though. And he did that on purpose because he thought it would be helpful to us. Was it?

[43:42]

Are you grieving that? Grieving it will help it be helpful. Oh, here you are. Yes. I'm getting confused about all these Buddhas. And the Buddha thing is getting stuck. I'm getting stuck on the Buddha thing at the moment a little bit, I think. Would you like to relax with it? You want to relax with the Buddha thing? Yeah. I support you to relax with the Buddha thing. I'm like, who is a Buddha? Who is a Buddha? Yeah. And who is a Bodhisattva? And... There's this becoming a Buddha, but, yeah, so I'm kind of like, whoa, there's another person. Well, there's different kinds of Buddhas. There's three kinds, basically. One kind is the complete transformation of our unconscious. That's a Buddha. That's the true body of Buddha.

[44:45]

That's not a person or it's not a historical figure. But that's actually a Buddha. It's the true body of Buddha. So my unconscious has not been transformed that far, as far as my understanding. But my understanding is that that would be a Buddha when my personal historical karmic consciousness effects were transformed. And when that transformation occurs, that that body of Buddha actually is not involved in any kind of elaboration of reality. It's in accord with reality. It doesn't elaborate in terms of existence or nonexistence. It doesn't get into that kind of elaboration of what's going on.

[45:49]

And sentient beings like us, we deal and we're very strongly involved with elaborating reality into like birth and death, existence and nonexistence. So that kind of Buddha is inconceivable to us. So again, what is that Buddha? It's a state which is beyond any kind of elaboration. So it's inconceivable to us. So I'm talking about it, but I understand that I can't conceive of it. And that Buddha body can respond to living beings like us. And the way it responds to us is called the emanation body of Buddha. And one of the ways the emanation body could come to us is in the form of a particular form of person. For us, it could look like a human person. So there was a human person in India that went through this process of evolution and that gave this teaching. And that person told us that there was this kind of Buddha that he was enacting.

[46:57]

And there was another kind of Buddha, which I just told you about. And then the other kind of Buddha is called the bliss body of Buddha or the... reward body of Buddha, or what's the word for it? Anyway, and that body of Buddha is, for example, this retreat, that we're together here, basically being quite kind to each other, quite patient with each other. You're being patient with me and each other. I'm being patient with you and myself. You know, you may see my shortcomings, but you're not being mean to me about it, and so on. The fact that we're here, sitting quietly together, supporting each other to sit quietly, sitting quietly to help other people do what they have trouble doing without our support, this is an example of what's called the bliss body of Buddha. So the bliss body and the bliss body of Buddha makes this kind of a group, and makes another group, and makes other groups in L.A., in Santa Barbara, in Albuquerque, in San Francisco, in New York, in China, India, Tibet, Japan, Korea, all these communities all over the world of people gathering together

[48:25]

lovingly supporting each other to hear the truth and contemplate the truth and be kind to their own deluded activity, to practice compassion and meditation on their own, that's another Buddha. So these are the three ways of Buddhists. And one of them is a historical person. But the historical person is only one aspect of the emanation body. Another aspect of it is when you hear the teaching, when you, a human being, hear the teaching and are transformed by it, that's also the transformation body of Buddha. When the teaching works on you and benefits you individually, that's also Buddha. And so you can serve the historical people you can serve the historical transformation that happens to you, because you're a historical figure, your practice evolving is Buddha.

[49:27]

And to be devoted to that, and other people's transformation and learning of the teaching is Buddha too. For us to serve other people's transformation and learning of the Dharma is serving Buddha. And also to serve the true body of Buddha is to serve and believe in the possible complete transformation of our unconscious mind. To believe in it and practice in order to promote it in ourselves and encourage others to practice to promote it in themselves, all of us contributed to the creation of this ultimate Buddha. These are the wisdom of the Buddha. And at one time in history, not so long ago, there was a historical figure who actually dared to let people, dared to realize and let people know that he had understood this teaching and he was the first one to give it. So we have that person too, but that person's gone. But then we have since then some other teachers who are really, really wonderful teachers.

[50:29]

And I'm telling you now, the teaching, some of the teachings I'm telling you now are not the teachings of the historical Buddha. I told you two stories of the historical Buddha, but I'm telling you teachings of other great teachers too. His teaching of the storehouse consciousness, the Buddha gave it, but he gave it in kind of like, it's the story of the seed consciousness. He gave it in kind of a seed form. He didn't develop it very much. But some great teachers after him really developed it, and that's what I'm sharing with you now, is the teaching of some of the Indian ancestors who lived like 800 and 900 years after Buddha, who developed his teachings in his ways to give us a, you know, more information about how the mind at delusion works and evolves to realize enlightenment. Thank you for your clarification. You're welcome. Thank you for sharing your struggle with Buddhism. Buddhism can be quite challenging.

[51:34]

Yes, please. Even non-Buddhists can be budgeted. Oh, by the way, may I mention something? Please. There's a text, it's a sutra actually, and it's called the Heroic Stride heroic stride samadhi, heroic stride awareness of the bodhisattva. And in that text, the Buddha mentions to his students that only Buddha could see who the bodhisattvas are. Only Buddha can see who in the room is actually on the bodhisattva path, who's really devoted to the welfare of all beings, and so on. And then one of the students said, well, since you're the only one who can see it, I guess it would make sense for us to, since we can't see it, to assume that everybody is a bodhisattva.

[52:45]

Just in case, it's also taught that it's really a big mistake to treat a bodhisattva disrespectfully. To treat somebody who gave their life for you with disrespect is really, really harmful. So just in case, it's probably a good idea to treat everybody with a lot of respect. That's the safe way to go. Yes? Yes. I think you just said twice that the historical Shakti Muni Buddha is gone. Yeah, the historical Shakti Muni Buddha played the game of appearing and disappearing. What I mean is he disappeared. Well, okay, so if... If everything's interdependent and nothing is separate, then where is the way?

[53:54]

Where did he go? Well, number one, the person who did this thing of appearing in the world and did this thing of disappearing, while he was still appearing, he did teach that his way was avoided the extreme of eternalism and annihilation. So when something goes away, it doesn't mean it's annihilated. And where did he go? Where did he go might seem harder, easier to say, where was he? Buddha isn't really located. We say he was in India, but again, where was he, really? Relativity theory would have us really wonder, where was he? Yeah. You know, from this perspective he was there, from that perspective he was someplace else. So we're not saying that the Buddha was annihilated, but there is tradition which says the Buddha appears.

[55:03]

It's a phantom. It's kind of a magical trick that the Buddha disappears and the Buddha doesn't really appear. It's just that people were into appearances, the Buddha says, OK, you're into appearances, I'll appear. And also, because you're into appearances, I'm going to disappear. I'll do this. Among other things, I'm a magician. So if you're not going to relate to me in my unelaborated form, I'll elaborate and be an appearance. But there's also a teaching that Buddhists don't really appear or disappear. They just said it's helpful to people who are into appearances, so they do it. But then it's also helpful for them to go away. But I think it helped me because the situation went away. Otherwise, I probably never would have even considered growing up. Just hanging around with my teacher without him doing the work. So I just want to check.

[56:08]

I think you just clarified my question. Kind of threw me when you said he went away. Because I remember the bumper sticker from the 70s that said, you know, throw it away. There is no away. So that confused me. But I often think about the drawing that you do, you know, with the universe and a little something at the top. And my understanding of kind of how existence or energy is, I think of it kind of like compost, in a way. So I'm in this form right now. But then at some point that form's going to change, and I'm whatever I am isn't going to go away. It's going to... Well, the way you are right now just ceased. Yeah, I know. Now there's somebody else here.

[57:09]

Yeah. But at some point it's going to kind of change a little more noticeably, probably. According to some people's point of view, yes. Okay. So is it useful to think of sort of that there's this universe that doesn't have a little bleep on it, the universe, and things change form and manifestation in that universe, but nothing actually, like, goes away or is created from scratch? Is that useful or am I, like, deluded? Or both? Well, to be able to see how things actually work is buddhahood. So striving towards becoming optimally or maximally complete, as helpful as you can be to all beings, includes being able to see how things are actually supporting each other all the time.

[58:18]

In the meantime, we have a kind of like a diluted version of that, and we're hearing teachings, but we still have just a conceptual version of it. We cannot actually conceive it the way it looks. The way it looks is inconceivable. So to actually be able to see the inconceivable functioning is very useful. It's the same as Buddhahood. Only Buddhists can see that. So yes, it's very important to be able to see that. And to imagine it might be encouraging. But you can't actually imagine it. You just have an image of it. But to know that it's an image is also helpful to release yourself from that image and other images. So a way it could be useful is for me to recognize that I don't understand how things work and that

[59:22]

I probably, or not even probably, that I can't really understand how everything works because I'm not certainly a Buddha. And still contemplate the way you think things do work. You do have a story of the way they work. And contemplate it the way you think they do work. has the potential to encourage you to devote yourself to doing things well. Because most people who look at cause and effect come to think that looking at cause and effect is beneficial. People who don't look at cause and effect seem to be very unhappy. And the most unhappy people are hardly even noticing that they're unhappy. To start to notice that you're unhappy is the beginning of happiness.

[60:28]

And then to start to notice that you're not unhappy just randomly, or because some young people were trying to be mean to you, but having something to do with cause and effect. Even though you can't see it, to be looking at what you think is going on, you'll notice that that seems to be going with more encouragement, more happiness, more energy, more life, even though you don't yet really see how it works, you still have a sense of, I think that would be good. He said, doing good is hard and being bad is easy. And I feel good about doing what's hard. I feel good about being challenged. Now, sometimes somebody said to me recently, she thought maybe it would be good for her to do the easiest possible thing. But for this person, that's very challenging. It's very challenging for her to do it the easiest possible way. So for her to do the challenging thing is actually...

[61:32]

just happen to be doing things the easiest way, which I think that that would be good. But the point is, she's contemplating cause and effect. She's telling me about it. I'm contemplating with it. So we're contemplating cause and effect, even though we don't really see it. We are contemplating it. And it's a almost universal message from the great ancestors. that contemplating cause and effect is the Buddha way, that the Buddha encouraged that, did it, and became a Buddha by doing it. At the end, you actually understand it. In the meantime, you're contemplating. Now we also contemplate other teachings. Most of the teachings are actually about cause and effect, like practice giving, It makes you joyful. How does that work? You can have some theory. You can't actually see it. But the point is, it's more important that you contemplate. I've heard that it brings joy to many beings if I practice giving.

[62:36]

So I'm thinking about that, and I'm going to try it. And I'm going to watch and see how it goes. And so on. And the same with ethics. And the same with patience. And concentration. And wisdom teachings. All these are things which I'm contemplating. How do they work? Do they really help beings? Do I have any contradictory evidence? And if I do, I could probably talk to the other people who are into this. Because if I talk to people who aren't into contemplative cause and effect, they won't even listen to me. They're just, I don't know what they're doing besides that, but they're not interested in having a conversation with me. So here I am talking to you, and some of you are still awake. listening to me talk about the virtues of contemplating cause and effect, I'm trying to encourage you to do this work because doing this work is Buddhist work. Buddhist do this, you can share in the work of observing, paying attention to cause and effect. This is, will give rise to the aspiration to do great heroic and beneficial work in the world.

[63:45]

Because the more you contemplate, the more most people, the more they contemplate, the more somehow, even though they don't see, they become more and more convinced that it's hard to do good, easy to be bad, and I want to do the hard thing. I want to do the good thing. I think it's more beautiful. And I already know how to be bad. It is easy. All you've got to do is just ignore it, just don't pay attention to anything, and you'll be successful. As I often say, you can drive badly blindfolded. It's easy. You can hurt people with your eyes shut, especially if you're big and they're little. You know, powerful beings can really hurt people if they don't pay attention. And we are powerful beings. We're humans. All of us.

[64:47]

But paying attention doesn't mean we don't do negative mistakes. It just means we'll be more and more interested in doing good because we realize that we don't really want to hurt beings, and we don't want beings to hurt us. We want to be happy, and we want other people to be happy. And the more we watch, the more we become convinced, even though we can't quite see how this all works. We can't even see how we're interested in being happy. How do we get to be interested and happy? How do we get interested in being peaceful and beneficial? How do we get that? I don't know. You can have various stories. Buddhists can see how we... Eventually you can see how you're that kind of a creature. But for now, just contemplate cause and effect, and you're moving in the right direction, I would say. And there will be awakenings on the way. Many awakenings will occur in the contemplation, many times in different ways you'll wake up, which will again stimulate and encourage and make your contemplation more and more efficient and effective.

[65:56]

And you'll be more and more encouraged to keep doing it, even though it continues to be challenging. So I'm getting this image of kind of like a research scientist who, you know, is... Like an enthusiastic research scientist. Yeah, exactly. The more she studies, the more she thinks, this is really interesting. Yeah, and the more she doesn't understand. Yeah, and she's happy about that. Because it's not so much she's happy about understanding, she's just happy about how vast and endless her work is. That's one of the things I liked about Zen is I thought... You know, now here's something that'll take a long time. You know, I was sitting, you know, half an hour, an hour, and I heard about these people who could sit. I thought, you know, maybe there is nobody like this, but I heard about these people who could sit weeks without moving. And I thought, hmm, I like that challenge.

[66:59]

And another thing I like about it is that although it's like almost infinite challenge, it's something you can do right up until you die. Rather than like some other sports, you have to retire, you know, when you're 30. That you can do this practice right up to the moment of death when you can almost do nothing else, you can practice. Because you can always be kind. So theoretically, you can be kind if you have Alzheimer's. Even if you don't remember who you are, you can actually continue the practice with whatever state is given to you. Here, have this mind, have this mind, have this mind. And you have this practice which deals with whatever mind is given you. And then you can test it, see, okay, when I meet this kind of person, can I be compassionate? When I meet this kind of person, you know? And when we see somebody who can relate to all these different types of minds and bring compassion to us, I think when we see that we think, I'm going to learn that, don't we?

[68:05]

How can they do that? That's a really great trick to love that person. Enough's at this time. Yes, please. Is your name Joe? Justin. Justin. I believe I remember you saying earlier that after an experience of sudden awakening that the knowledge from that is not lost. would be available to interface with delusion as it continues to arise.

[69:16]

I just wanted to raise the question, are you sure about that? Just to play devil's advocate, and also because I've known a number of people who say that they've had hundreds of experiences of sudden awakening, and that when delusion arises, it's still just delusion. I agree that when delusion arises, it's still just delusion. I agree. You say that again? He said he's known people who have experiences of sudden awakening and that when delusion arises, it's still just delusion. And I said I agree that when delusion arises before and after, it's still just delusion. Or a stretch of delusion that's long enough that it actually experientially feels like you've lost access to the knowledge that was there at the moment of sudden awakening.

[70:18]

Does that resonate at all? Yeah, but that opinion is another delusion. Well, it would seem valid until the moment that it gets interfaced with. Oh, where? Like a very, you know, an experience of kind of just checking out for a while and not being able to access the mind of awakening. Okay, so one other way to ask you a question would be, when delusion appears and you supposedly actually had insight, before the insight is applied to that, this isn't a question, I'm just saying, before the insight is applied, it just looks like delusion. When the insight is applied, you say, oh, this is delusion, I don't believe this. It still looks the same, but you have just applied what you learned before.

[71:21]

If you then would have, and if you elaborate that thought, as it's been a long time since I've been able to deal with delusion in any effective way, when that first appears, it doesn't mean that you would immediately always apply insight to it. So that's what I'm saying, is that it's possible that you have insight, a delusion would arise, and you wouldn't apply the insight to it, in fact, the belief in this thing, like a discouraging thought. It'd be quite catching. Yeah, and you're caught, and you haven't applied it yet. But you also haven't seen what it is and called it for what it is, either. You have to believe it again. So then you haven't applied this yet. But you have something to apply. There is some memory that there was, yeah. And when you apply... Sort of like memory. You could say it's a memory, either way. But anyway, you apply this thing to this, and you didn't have this to apply before.

[72:25]

Before this thing happened, you did not, you had teachings maybe, but you didn't have this verification to apply to your delusions before there was... It doesn't mean that every time that these delusions arise, you will apply your insight. And as a matter of fact, you might even have the delusion that you don't have to apply the insight to this because everything you see is enlightenment. At that point, you still need a teacher after these enlightenment experiences to show you how to apply a teacher to this delusion. Or, you know... shows you how to apply it and reminds you to apply it. So does that help you? Can it really be said that I have this to apply, though, if I'm not applying it? I mean, in the moment when I'm in delusion and not applying it, I don't have that to apply it. No, I think you do have it to apply.

[73:33]

But you don't have it like something to possess. But the medicine is in you someplace. And it's not in the illusion. But the seeds of your receiving this wisdom have been planted in your practice space. And it may not pop up to be applied for a long time sometimes, but it is there and will never be lost. Isn't that true even before the first match is lit, though? I mean, even before a first experience of sudden awakening, the seeds are still there. They haven't been verified and we may not have much faith in them, but it seems like that same state is true. I guess the thing is there's a phase in practice when the defiled states are actually gone. There's a period of conscious life when there's no defiled states for a while. That's been proposed.

[74:35]

And that that has a lasting effect. It doesn't last, but its effect propagates. And the effect is not applied right away every time diluted state arises. And also, it could be misapplied. You still may need instructions about how to apply it. It could be misapplied. You could feel the encouragement of it and perhaps not apply it properly So all that can happen, but there's a space in which this state would not propagate any delusion. But another state which coexists with it, but it's not a deluded state, is the storehouse consciousness. So part of the explanation of this consciousness is this enlightenment state could not produce any deluded states. You have now a state which cannot produce into a new state, but they're produced, and they're not produced by this state.

[75:36]

And there is a lasting effect of this state, and there was never this state before in your life. That's not, correct me if I'm wrong, that's not specifically what you were referring to when you said that you would lose the knowledge of the initial awakening experience. Because at first these matches are going to be lit rather far apart, I mean, from a temporal perspective, right? Or it could just be one match. It could just be one time. And that one time is sufficient for transforming the rest of history of this practicing lineage. But its consequence is in a kind of like a parallel practice process from the process that's supporting these defiled states. Well, they continue to arise, which continue to arise. Yes. Right. I guess I am kind of playing devil's advocate.

[76:42]

When they arise and they're juxtaposed with or confronted with this insight, they are transformed in a different way. Then they were transformed by simply teachings of good karma, which previously came. They're transformed and antidoted in another way. But they actually, at that moment, no new karmic seeds are planted at that moment. I'm not sure if I followed that. Are you saying that after a singular experience of being awake, that you're not saying that there would follow no moments of delusion? No, I'm not saying that. But I am saying that although there can be many moments of delusion, many moments of delusion,

[77:42]

And in a sense it could be, what do you call it, backsliding and even have more problems than before. The problems you have afterwards are different than the way they were before because you've had this insight. In some ways they're more embarrassing than they were before. And the kind of help you get is different than the kind of help you get before you had this awakening. After the awakening, you get help of how to apply what you understood correctly to this deluded state, these deluded states which are still arising. You have a resource that you didn't have before. But it doesn't mean you don't have still lots of work to do. It's just that the work is different. Or that there's... I don't know if it rings true to me that there's any amount of... There's not any amount of control over being able to just tap into awakening at will just because there's been one moment of awakening.

[78:45]

There could be delusion and actually a real sense of no capacity to meet it with awakening, even following awakening. But still, when you're given a resource, even though you can't control access to it, you may have it. And some people may be able to see you have it and point it out to you. And then you might say, oh. What comes to mind is another thing from the Lotus Sutra, where it's the story of these two guys drinking together. And one of them passes out, and the other one has to leave town. So he puts a jewel, he sews a jewel into the clothes of the one guy. He doesn't want to leave the jewel right there, because the servants might take it, I guess. Or even he might get up, the other guy might get up and crawl off. and not notice what has been given. So he puts it in his clothes, and then eventually the guy finds it. So you could have an insight and be very unpossessive about it and hardly even remember you had it, but you have it.

[79:51]

And you didn't have it before. It's kind of like that. But some people may notice it and point it out to you, and then you can apply it, but then you can lose it again. Yeah, I mean, I've had moments of insight, and I don't think that I'm a special person because of it, or that I've arrived at some place where now I've got something that everybody else doesn't have. You may not think you're a special person, you know, and that may be one of your delusions. Somebody else may think they are a special person. I've definitely had moments, the moments when I'm deluded far exceed the moments when I'm not. And I definitely had moments where I've had a sense of despair of not being able to tap into a resource that seems so obvious at times. And I think most people who reach a point of wisdom, most people have previously more moments of delusion than they will in the future have.

[80:52]

Most people. But in any case, anyway, once there's wisdom, the number of deliberate states has just become limited. But before there's insight, there's no foreseeable end to the process. It's just going to keep cycling around in itself until it lets this wisdom permeation in. And the wisdom permeation comes in, and at a certain point, it changes them. in such a way that there's a period of time when the width of variation doesn't allow any of the five states for a while. And that's a transition state. And from then on, it's possible that you practice meditation in a way where there actually is, simultaneous with these deluded states, no belief in their substantial existence. And if you still feel like, I still believe that these things substantially exist, I defiantly believe it, it may be that most of the teachers you could find said, okay, I agree with you, you don't have insight.

[81:59]

You never did. If you're really adamantly trying to prove that you didn't, and there's no effect of any insight because you so much believe these things really substantially exist, I guess I would agree that you didn't really have an awakening in that. It's more that in the dark night, there's just the dark night. Does that make any sense? There is. But the fact that there it is right there, the fact that the dark night is just the dark night is exactly the reason that the dark night is not the dark night. The way things are just what they are is the reason why they aren't. Because the reason they are the way they are is because they depend on something other than themselves. They couldn't be the way they are by themselves. The way they really are is that they depend on something else to be the way they are, and that's why they aren't themselves. How does that apply specifically to the dark night? Just fill in the blanks.

[83:00]

Well, when you see it, it's called freedom from the dark night, and it's also freedom from the bright day. And you might feel like, a lot of people feel like, freedom from the bright day is even more important than freedom from the dark night. Because some people say, I don't want to be free from the bright day, and they just stay stuck there for a long time. It's a spiritual sickness. There's less doctors for that than there are... Everybody's sympathetic to the people who are stuck in the dark night. Right. But when you realize that the dark night is not the dark night, then when it appears again... you realize that it's not the dark night. Even though it looks exactly like the dark night, or it's a worse dark night, or it's a more subtle dark night, or it's a more tricky dark night, you realize that the way things are is that they're not that way. And if you really say, I do not realize this, then maybe I wouldn't argue with you. You say, okay, you don't. Go on. Yeah, I know, I'm looking as we're talking, you know, what else is going on.

[84:04]

You know, there probably, there is some fear on board that, like, you know, you hear these stories about Mother Teresa who had some insight and then she fell into a dark night that lasted basically the rest of her life. And, you know, that's kind of like, there's a little twist in that, like, that kind of puts me on guard or makes me feel less trusting to contemplate. Because you would not want to be like Mother Teresa. Yeah. I wouldn't want to feel stuck for the rest of this life. I wouldn't want you to either, but what if you are? Yeah, I want to welcome the possibility. Yeah, I do too. And it would be hard for me to welcome the possibility for you to be stuck for the rest of your life. As it would be for me. Yeah. Yeah. And did she lose her faith to walk on her dark night? I don't know. We don't really know. We just know what she wrote, what people said after she died. So it's kind of this, to some extent, there's a bet going on here.

[85:05]

Would you bet on these practices? I've got a little agent in my mind that no matter how the horses are doing, always wants to bet on defeat. Cool. I'll leave it at that. If you feel like I'm being dogmatic, I welcome your comments. I want to look at my own experience. Yeah. When it's dark, it can feel quite dark. And there have been some ones. And I do have an increasing sense of trust. I mean, like I said, I was in a sense playing the devil's advocate. I have had an increasing sense of trust that the Dark Knight isn't the Dark Knight. And I also have a little agent on board who says, but, and yet, and yet. Thank you very much.

[86:20]

Anything else right now? Walking meditation? I forgot to tell you about my symbols here. An E with a circle around it is enlightenment. So, sudden enlightenment. And then one final thing today is the six perfections. which I talked to you about, giving, ethical discipline, enthusiasm, patience, enthusiasm, concentration, and wisdom are the causes of sudden enlightenment.

[87:22]

And the results of sudden enlightenment are the practice of the Six Perfections. Okay? So before sudden enlightenment, in a sense, the six perfections are different than after, but it just goes round and round. And the sudden enlightenment encourages the practice of the six perfections. Now, if the six perfections lead to sudden enlightenment, and we don't feel the encouragement to practice the six perfections, that lack of encouragement doesn't come from the sudden enlightenment. It comes from the place that we always had of encouragement. In other words, it comes from our past karma. The result of our past karma is that we sometimes think we have a better thing to do than practice giving and so on. And even without enlightenment, however, sometimes we do think we have nothing better to do

[88:28]

And becoming enlightened is to become more convinced of that. So enlightenment is the big encouragement to the practice of these virtues. And these virtues lead to this encouragement. The more we practice them, the more we're encouraged to practice them. But in some ways, sometimes a clarity about how good it is does appear, and after that, The practice is stronger and will never be reversed, even though there could be setbacks still. And there's even a later stage where there's no setbacks anymore. But don't worry about that. Is there anything else you wish to bring up tonight, anybody? Perfections again, please. The first perfection is perfection of givingness.

[89:30]

The first aspect of compassion is to be generous. Second is ethical discipline. Third is patience. Fourth is enthusiasm. Fifth, concentration, tranquility. And sixth is wisdom. And in a sense, we practice wisdom before we realize it. We hear the wisdom teachings before we understand them. So just like we can practice concentration before we're concentrated, we practice giving before we really learn what giving is. So all these practices, they're called the six perfections, and that's a very generous thing to call them six perfections because when we first start practicing them, They aren't really the perfections. But you're still practicing them.

[90:33]

And when you have wisdom, then they really become the perfections. So our attempts to practice them lead to being able to really practice them. And really practicing leads to really practicing them. and which leads to further enlightenment and further encouragement, round and round, never ending, until everybody's on board. These are the six basic practices of enlightening beings, and there's infinite practices of enlightening beings. But if you look at them, they form these six categories, encompass them all. And there's also, which I talked about at a retreat at Mount Medan recently, there's four additional practices. So sometimes we speak of ten perfections. But the four additional ones are really just ways of helping the first six.

[91:35]

And so they're included in the first six. But they're more like, yeah, auxiliary to the six. They aren't the six themselves, but more like aids to the six. And anything else? No more feedback from me today? Oh, some more feedback. Here it comes. I want to share an interesting realization that I just had. I want to share, is that better?

[92:37]

Yes. I want to share an interesting realization that I just had. It started with Justin's conversation. I've never really understood when people said having awakening. I mean, I put some understanding to it, but I've never experienced it. And as that dialogue was going on with you and Justin, I was thinking, but there almost feels like there is... a depository or part of all that is contains the non-dilution or is the non-dilution. And so I was grappling with what your conversation was and where I was coming at it from. And I thought that through my life of practice,

[93:44]

the delusion would go away when I would just remember that it was delusion. I would see that it was delusion again, and it would almost be that much of a blink of an eye. And yet, as I was sitting on my cushion just now, I was thinking, it has over the years increased in frequency, the ability to just see and let go and let go of belief or delusion. And then the realization that I had was that I remembered back to when I first met you. And I remember back to those years, and it wasn't a gradual building, because in the beginning, it was a very different experience for me.

[95:02]

The words I would use to explain it would be that I would link onto you, I would just like, you would talk and it was like a laser, the The truth of what I was hearing was phenomenal and completely different from like one day to the next to anything I had ever heard. And my reality was so thick in delusion that it I wouldn't even have said it was an awakening. I can't even put more words to it. But that from those days to now, my experience with you now is very different. I don't feel like I link onto you and I can soar rapidly because I had a mind and agility back then, as did you, that was, that,

[96:11]

that realization was that much quicker. And now I've practiced with what I was given back then, what I received back then, I've practiced with since the mid-'80s over and over just always coming back to it, always just, it was as if there was no decision. There was nothing else to do but to do that whenever it would come up. Is there a choice? Okay, I'm going to do this. But anyway, so it's almost like... I don't even want to use the words because I'm so far from enlightened, but it's almost like sudden enlightenment and gradual enlightenment at the same time. It's like sudden information, realization being given and not able to contain it, of course.

[97:23]

So then you go through the years of working with it. Anyway, it's very beautiful to have seen both those forms of practice with you. And I don't know if you have anything more to say, but I felt the desire to share that with you. It felt too intimate to not share that. I'm glad you could share something so intimate with everybody. And maybe it was good that I lived long enough to hear this. I felt a little like that also. I was sitting on my cushion and I thought, I don't have to say any of this. Why do I have to say any of it? And I thought, Judy, God forbid, if Reb would have died tomorrow, I think I would be sad that I had not said that to you. Yeah.

[98:23]

Yeah. If I died before you said that, it would have been sad. If there's anything else that you have to say... And in case I do keep living, these comments will encourage me to continue to practice. Thank you.

[98:40]

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