I think I might have mentioned, although the word mention is kind of the light, I might have mentioned that I see the practice of zazen, or if I could even say the zazen I teach is wholehearted awareness in the midst of delusion. Do you remember me saying something like that? Wholehearted awareness in the midst of delusion, which is leaping beyond delusion and enlightenment. So that's how I've been feeling lately about the practice.

[01:13]

It's wholehearted awareness in the midst of delusion. And in that wholeheartedness, there is leaping. So you're not stuck in delusion, not seeking enlightenment, leaping beyond both and realizing their non-duality. Again, practicing in delusion, wholeheartedly, not trying to get enlightenment. But, you know, since it's right in the neighborhood, you leap from the delusion. But also because of enlightenment, you don't get stuck in enlightenment, you leap beyond enlightenment. You're not attached to delusion, you're not attached to getting out of it, you're not attached to enlightenment, you're not attached to staying in it or getting out of it. That's the practice that I want to encourage in myself and in everybody.

[02:16]

Now, delusion has been defined as a pattern of relationship. between the self, or a person, and the world. And it's a relationship that kind of exists in quotation marks because it's a cognitive representation of our relationship that actually doesn't exist except as a mental construction. That's how it's a delusion. It's something that kind of deceives us or fools us. It's a way our mind creates a cognitive representation of our relationship with the world, and it tricks us. And it looks like we are separate from the world.

[03:27]

It looks like we're already here acting upon all things. practicing all things, experiencing all things. That's Dogen's definition of delusion. Now that mentally constructed cognitive field is probably quite familiar to most people, most humans, and actually If we could interview animals, we might find out they have a similar cognitive field. And also to tie this talk back into the study of karma, karma is fundamentally the overall pattern of relationship of the cognition.

[04:32]

That's what karma is. Karma is chintana. Karma is the synergy of a moment of cognition, the activity of a moment of cognition. And every cognition has such a synergy, has such a pattern of relationship. Practicing in delusion would be that you're aware of the current pattern of relationship, and you would notice perhaps that there's some sense that you're separate from some part of the world, that there's some taint at least of independent existence and permanence in this totally dynamic situation. There's something undynamic about it, it seems, and we're fooled by this undynamic picture of the mind that the mind is acting as.

[05:36]

And also, yeah, so I want to maybe just now shift gears a little bit and talk about something kind of like personal and current kind of events. So I came to the practice period. And then at some point, we had a practice committee meeting. We were discussing the schedule. And I said, I had this pattern in my mind. I said, I don't want to have way-seeking mind talks during this practice period. So the whole world made me into the person that I was during that meeting. And a lot of things, a lot of factors got me to this practice period. I saw myself agreeing to come and heading to come and some people saying, oh, we're glad you're coming and blah, blah.

[06:42]

And that made me feel like, oh, I guess I am going to go. And then I arrived, here I am, and we're having a meeting, discuss the practice period. And I find myself in the position of sitting in a habit's cabin and kind of feeling like I'm in this position of leadership. And one way to be in a position of leadership is just to do what the people here tell you to do. That's fine. I mean, I sometimes do that. And that's sometimes the way I am. And that could be leadership. But I actually, nobody told me, go to Tassajara and say we don't want to have boy-seeking mind talks. Somehow I was made into a person with certain experiences, and I said that, and I knew that when I said that, that that would be influential.

[07:45]

and the practice community, and Nintendo was there too, they kind of said, and I made some kind of like reasons for it too, and I don't want to like say, I want to do this, and somebody says, well, what's the reason? I say, well, it's a gut feeling. I don't want to be that way. Although it might be a gut feeling, I would be happy to try to articulate what the pattern of that desire is. And so I gave some reasons, and I told you all some of the reasons. And I'm a person who felt that way and had those reasons and saw that pattern. And that's who I was at that time. And I also had a feeling that eventually people would notice that there was no way seeking mind talks. And they probably would say, you know, when are they going to start happening?

[08:49]

I thought that might happen, and it did. And I don't know what happened when people said that, but I get the feeling that somebody said, well, Rem actually, it's his fault. Or he didn't want to have them, or something like that. I don't know what happened. But anyway, I got these three expressions from people who really wanted me to know that they really appreciated these Wasted Mind talks, and they had lots of good reasons, I thought. I mean, did you think so? And they asked me to reconsider, and I thought, and when I read that, I read, I am, as I read this thing, I'm reconsidering it. If somebody says they want something that I said I didn't want to have happen, I reconsidered. But I didn't feel like I should just talk to those three people.

[09:51]

There's probably other people. I thought, we should have a meeting, and we had a meeting. And after the meeting, some of those people said, I appreciate the meeting. I don't know if they said, and I still want the Way Seeking Mind talks, but I'll support whatever, I think they said, whatever your decision is. But to me, it's more like, what I am. There is a decision about me, but I don't make the decision. It's like the world makes me a person who wants something. But I'm responsible for what I want. But so are you. But I'm responsible in a different way. It's true. So after the meeting, I wrote down here, I give my thanks to those who kindly asked me to reconsider, they didn't say exactly this way, but to reconsider my intention, my karma.

[11:03]

I had this intention, this desire not to have those talks, to have a different kind of a practice period. I had that desire, that intention, that wish. I didn't want to just do that thing again. And they kind of said, reconsider your intention. So I looked inside at my intention, and I looked at it, and I saw that I still did not want to have those meetings. But I did appreciate at some deep committed practitioner level, I do like to be encouraged to look inside of what I'm intending. And I did. And it was difficult to look inside. But I did. And I I don't know where I was, but I think I was in a car coming back here, and I heard this rapper being interviewed on public radio.

[12:26]

I think his name's Andre Benjamin. Do you know Andre Benjamin? Anyway, he's a really nice kid. And Terry Rose said to him, you know, usually rappers do not show much vulnerability. How about you? And he said kind of, yeah, well, you know, when you're first getting into it, you know, it's really, you got to defend yourself because you get attacked a lot. And to make a long story short, he said, the deeper I get into my music, the more I expose myself. I thought, yeah. And your music is your intention right now. That's your music. You're actually tuning the station, your intention. Your music is your action. So now, a lovely way to put it, maybe an appealing way to put it is, wholehearted attention to your deluded music, or your music of delusion.

[13:33]

And the more you go into it, the more you expose yourself, the more you see things about yourself. The more you go into it, the more you see how your intention is engaged with other people. Like rappers, at first they're really defensive, frightening boys, you know, in a dangerous neighborhood. And they're like, you can't get me. You know, you can't get me and I'm going to get you. You know, I'm invulnerable. But the more they do that, the deeper they go, the more they realize that they're engaged with these people that they're defending against. And their music gets better. But then they get more vulnerable. They expose themselves more. They realize they're more pumped. This is a more mature artist. And finally, they can't be rappers anymore.

[14:36]

They have to be teachers. And this guy wants to be a, he said, I'm not going to be a rapper when I'm 45. Rappers are young people's thing. Young people are scared and unconscious usually, especially in slums when you're African-American. It's dangerous, especially if you're a man. And you're scared. Anyway, as you mature, you become more able to be vulnerable. And so he said, I'm going to be a teacher, an art teacher, a music teacher. I'll go back to school. Of course, he's a millionaire and so on. And actually, he's got a show now about a little famous rapper who also won Nobel Peace Prize, who quit being a rapper and became a music teacher in a school in the ghetto.

[15:42]

And it's an animated show. And he's the voice for this teacher, this whole famous rapper, social activist, millionaire who gives up his career and goes to become a teacher for these kids, teaching these kids life through teaching them music. So anyway, I'm just saying. I really felt vulnerable, because if I felt, you know, if you don't have wasted minds, that's painful for me because I feel it's painful for others. And people would be disappointed and upset. Of course, also maybe hate me, et cetera. But yeah. But at the same time, I couldn't be a half-hearted version of myself. And so like, OK, I'll go along with it.

[16:46]

What about surrender? Yeah, well, I'm actually surrendering kind of to how I am. That I did not want them. And I also said, what about not making them required? And people said, well, let's make them community members. OK. If you really, really don't want to come, but I didn't want to be the one who really, really didn't want to come, who didn't come. Because, oh, the person in the leadership position is the one who really, really didn't want to come or didn't come. Then it's like a pussyjack in the leadership position standing out. So not coming would have been somewhat wholehearted. But it creates, you know, is it really addressing the point that I don't come? And someone said to me, you know, I feel like the way seeking minds are kind of missing the point.

[17:47]

And I thought variously, one is that, well, they're not missing the point, but maybe the point that they're pointing to, we should massage. What are they actually pointing at? You're pointing at something really important. And also, Tenzo said, well, way-seeking minds, their talks are kind of like a way to practice diversity, get a lot of different voices. I can see that. Well, I guess I would like to hear from more than just the prangana people. And I'd like to do it in a way that's not just 20 minutes, 20 minutes, 20 minutes, and that's not just you know, for nine-day evenings, I'd like to have it be something that we're doing throughout the community. I think there's something here that we're trying to say has to do with vulnerability, expression, expression vulnerability, expressing ourselves, putting ourselves out there wholeheartedly and therefore exposed.

[19:04]

And like Jared said, he put himself out there, he was exposed, but he learned that he was held. That's what we want to find out, that we can put ourselves out there, and then we're vulnerable, and that somehow we can be ourselves in this place. That I am for, but the form, that other form, Again, you know, I feel like, can't you just sit there and listen to 24 people tell their stories? I can, but I don't do that in doksan. I don't just sit there passively. I shouldn't say passively. I don't sit there and listen to monologues. People can tell me stories, but I interact. And also, I don't want to tell you stories and have you not interact with me. So this thing of me sitting here and listening to 24 stories, I feel like, wait a minute, why are you asking me to come if I don't want to be there?

[20:07]

Because you're the leader of the practice group, but then you're asking me to come and not say anything. I feel something doesn't work for me, that's not who I am, because that's not really who I am. That's not who I am to come there and do that. Maybe it is who some of you are, that you come and listen to 24-hour talks and don't say anything to them other than ask questions. Maybe it is. I don't know. But it ain't me. That's not who I am. I'm not somebody who wants to do that. But I would be willing to come to not 24 talks, but eight talks where everybody has a chance to talk and I'm one of them. That's sort of where I'm at. Right now I'm doing mostly talking, but I actually feel like somebody has to set the table at the party, and I'm setting the table now. That's what I see.

[21:09]

And I'm also telling you, I look inside and I said, this is what I want, and somebody in the past meeting said, okay, that's what you want, but what's best for the practice period? And that's very important to me. I have to look to see, you know, is what I want best for the practice period? And I actually think, it's not exactly that what I want is best for the practice period. But I want what's best for the practice period. And I want that to include what I want. So I have to look at what I want and see how that works for the whole practice period. I have to do that all the time. And there's tradition here, and I was sitting in the zendo, I think at dinner last night, or at lunch yesterday, actually, and I was looking at the people sitting there having lunch, and the people serving, and I felt, well, you know, this is tradition.

[22:12]

Sitting in this room this way, in this posture, serving this way, from my experience, it's a lot like it was back in 1967. It's more developed, actually, than then, but with the container of that form is very much connected. And way-seeking mind talks are innovations which I think actually have been very helpful, and they may happen again. But I feel like they happen inside of this container. This container is a container of awareness in which we can do various things, like way-seeking mind talks. The way seeking mind clouds are not, in my view, they're not exactly the container of our practice periods. But they can happen here because of this container. And also that there's a container for them of being 20 minutes and so on and so forth.

[23:18]

There's a form that exists. So... Anyway, I feel... I feel really good because I got to the place where I really felt that what I want was, I want what's best for the practice period. And I did not feel like doing the ways that your mind talks, given who's in this valley, me. But I don't feel that they would work unless I could wholeheartedly participate. I don't think anything should happen here. that I can't wholeheartedly participate in, and I think it's the same for all of us. And I must demonstrate wholeheartedness, and so must you. Yes. Why can't you participate in listening?

[24:21]

I hope I can participate in listening. I hope I can. So isn't there a way, basically, you might talk about participating and listening to other people's stories? It is, but it's that particular form which I said I didn't want to do. If I was in a room and somebody was talking, I could listen, but I already said I didn't want to do it in the first place. So I'm wholeheartedly saying that. Now, if I could wholeheartedly, and you could have the meeting and had somebody telling a story, and I could wholeheartedly not come. And I thought of that. But I thought, well, that makes too big an issue of me not coming. Because I'm in this position of, if you don't come to the Wasting Time Talks, people might say, well, he's taking care of the kids, or whatever. They won't probably examine any further. If I don't come, especially if I don't come to any of them, but just the first one I would miss, it would be this big issue. But it would be kind of wholehearted for me not to come, because, in fact, my integrity would be, I didn't want to, I asked for things not to happen, and they happened, and I didn't come.

[25:24]

Of course I can go to a meeting and listen. I have listened. I do not have the world record for listening to a number of voice-seeking mind talks. I do not. But I've listened to a few of them, and I have enjoyed most that I've listened to. And some of them that I didn't enjoy were great experiences. Anyway, they were very painful, you know, some of them, of what we were letting some people do, you know, in public. I felt really funny about it. But I did listen to it. I listened to everyone that I went to. And then I came here and I said, I don't want to do them. But if they were happening and I was in a room, I think I have the ability to wholeheartedly listen. I'm not saying I always do. But I want to. If I'm listening, I want to do it wholeheartedly. And sometimes when I'm wholeheartedly listening, I say to somebody, can I say something? I really wholeheartedly want to ask a question. Right in the middle of a sentence, I want to do it.

[26:28]

And maybe they feel like I was wholeheartedly listening right up to the time I asked that question. And I'm willing to get their feedback and ask them, look inside and see if you were wholeheartedly listening. And I might look inside and say, you're right, I was distracted, I'm sorry. But I might say, I was, I am. I want to, whatever, whether I'm seeing you, hearing you, touching you, smelling you, tasting you, thinking about you, I want to do it wholeheartedly. I think I have that ability, I think you have that ability, and I think we sometimes slip up. In other words, I think we get distracted from paying attention to our delusion. But I could and have listened to quite a few things I have listened to quite a few stories. Are you saying that you feel limited, and just like, just the listening, you want to be able to express yourself in other ways? Yes. And also I want other people to, and I don't want it to be just the Tonga people who are doing it.

[27:37]

I want everybody to do it. I think that's really what is so moving about them, is that We want that. And I want to move to look at how is it possible during this practice period, and that's what I'm setting up here, that we can find ways for everybody to have a chance to express themselves and expose themselves. But expressing yourself fully doesn't necessarily come in 20-minute packages. It actually doesn't very often come in 20-minute packages. Usually it comes in a moment. And then maybe another moment you express yourself again and again. But pretty soon people start saying they have something to say, too, initially. Yes? One of the purposes of the Way Seeking Mind Toss is for people to examine their karma, specifically in relationship to practice and their intention to practice, and to do it in a really, to do a pretty in-depth examination with the support of a community.

[28:44]

So I hear you saying that you would like that to happen. You'd like to find a way for that to happen, for us all to do that together, this practice period, and to look at what ceremonies and forms we can use to do that together. Right. And in fact, I just gave you a wasted genuine talk, just now, about the last few days, or actually from that meeting. I expressed this thing, I got this feedback, I asked for the meeting, and at the meeting I heard all this, and this is my karma. I had some understanding of my relationship with all of you, in the history of Tassajara. That's my karma. And in that karma I tried to see where's the way, where's the beneficial way in this pattern. And so I was talking to someone, not only did I get help to look inside before, but then I kept trying to look at my intention after the meeting.

[29:50]

And I saw all these different possibilities, you know. But have the way of seeking mind talks, but just see if you're wholehearted. And if you're not wholehearted about going, do something else wholeheartedly. But I kind of thought what would happen would be that I would wholeheartedly say, I'd not go. And I thought, well, I don't know if that's really that interesting for people to deal with me not going. I could do that. Or maybe I would go. But I'm not going to go and be halfhearted about it. So that's what I saw. Then I thought, well, how about not having it? And then you have everybody depressed and thinking you're a mean guy. I don't know about that pattern. Then I saw another pattern of, how about everybody being themselves and expressing it? I thought, oh, that's what I want. So by searching around, I found the way-seeking mind, not my way-seeking mind, the way-seeking mind, the mind which is what's best for the practice period I found in my mind.

[30:55]

And for me, it doesn't look like that has this set of way-seeking mind things in it. It doesn't look like it would be that way to me. I could be surprised, but I think it would be some other way. I think it's this way. And you can change it now. That's exactly, you got it just right. Yes, yes, yes. Are you imagining a container or a form for inviting people to do this? Right now I'm imagining... Or just as kind of what happens in class? I'm imagining it right now, and I'm imagining that people will ask now about this and the contributions and that some form may evolve that they've never seen before. That's what I'm imagining. Yes? It changed just now. Yeah, right. Well, like you said about the experience that wakes up in my taxes by exposing taxes to the culture, because I feel...

[31:59]

very strong deeply. I see things, like when I look inside that pillow, I see things too. And what comes up for me is, yes, I would, what I want is for everyone to have a space to express fully and directly and support each other through that. And we already have pretty strong container with a lot of form and a lot of serving already in place and so what came up for me was what you say dry wood with the various you can speak sick about why would they put the point why would it be a special designate a special form where we could have that experience as we're interacting all the time and If people wanted to know the Kalangariya students, they can, using the similarity of what we already cultivated, step forward.

[33:02]

They can find out about why is the Kalangariya student here and share why they are here. And that's already happening. It comes to my mind very much. So the other thing that came to me was, this is not a specific question, The negative part, you said, this is the person who I am. About, what was it about? Oh, like not listening, right? You didn't want to just come and listen, you wanted to come, right? I didn't want to come and mope. I'm coming to you. I give in. I surrender. Or maybe I come, I surrender. I'm so happy to be here. If that's who I became, at any point, I could beg you people for a place to do mind talks. And you might say, oh, okay, we'll do them.

[34:02]

I can play notes. Yeah, good. So this happens to where I just really could see this is how, this is how it is coming and this is and then checking and this is how it is coming out. And then over time, usually, this is how it is coming. I don't like to put I, I'm not the type of person who in particular situations not conducive for my authentic expression. Yeah. And if I hold on to that and say, well, this is the person who I am, and not continue to check, I've checked out. Right. Did you get that? Did you hear what she said? Nancy, did you miss that? Some people checked out apparently on your phone. So you may have done just what you said. You may have checked out earlier in your conversation. Do you see what I'm saying?

[35:07]

You may have held on to your talk a little too long there about yourself, and then people checked out. Is that what happened? Yeah. Yeah. So that was an example where you were trying to tell us something about yourself, but you held on a little too long. And then you checked out, but they checked out too, so that we didn't follow that nice point you made, which is correct. There's a thing there. There's a thing there. Are you hanging on to something there? Yeah, good. I see two people over there. But I wanted to say one more thing before I call on the next person named Yoki. I think she was next. And it was that I also thought the diversity, I think, is another thing that you could say is beside the point, or you could say is another thing that's

[36:16]

trying to get to the point. And diversity is a word that uses the growth of the point. And of course, they're giving me a list of all the different meanings that people have for diversity, the diverse list of what diversity meant. And I've got that list right here. But I also thought that the diversity and 12-step, all that stuff seems like it should be brought into expression rather than put off to the side as people's personal thing. So I was graciously invited to come to a diversity set meeting and express some things, but this is the beginning of my expression about diversity, because I would like to have it happen, you know, including, we could call it diversity, and then those people who do not want to deal with diversity could deal with that, you know, wholeheartedly.

[37:24]

That was in parentheses, which I know are closed, yes. Thank you for your time on the subject. Basically, mind talk seems like a really old term to me by now, and I'm so bored already with hearing that. Could we find a new thing to call whatever it is we're doing? Yeah, we can find a new word, and then we can throw that one away, too. How about introducing? Yes. Those two people who are sitting right next to each other. This thing happened for me that I wanted to try to put out there, because I imagine that not the only thing. When I appreciate, I feel like there's some teaching for me in what you're putting forth about leadership.

[38:27]

And also just about embracing practice and leadership and how to embrace that. But the thing often happens, I think, when I'm watching, particularly you in the position of really being in that role of leadership, where I see this thing that I, what resonates in my heart is this is really coming from practice, and I can see that. There's a freedom, like when you have the, freedom. It's a need. I feel like, oh, that's coming from years of that. But this other thing starts to skim them all. Because of who I am, I think, in our culture, maybe just particularly when you're female, not being male, and being an underdog in that part of the community, that I start, some part of me starts to feel like, Stand up, please. And I appreciate that part of your thing.

[39:29]

Come up here, please. A newly chiropractized person. Lift up the underdog here. I feel like part of what you're saying is these different things came together and some of those things are being white being educated being male having that kind of All of your life, right? All those things feeding. I imagine those are things that help make you who you are. But what I watch happen in me is that I feel like there's this teaching about the Dharma, but I have to kind of, I'm tending to this thread that's at the side all the time, which is like, part of the reason Rev can do this is because he's a white man who's always gotten all this affirmation of being in this role as a leadership person. And I don't think it's problematic if I'm noticing that it's kind of skipping.

[40:32]

But if I'm not naming it for myself, it undermines what I feel like is the teaching that's available to everybody. And naming it is expressing... What did you say? It's really nice to look at it. Naming it is expressing yourself and exposing yourself. Yeah, and I'm wondering if that's helpful for other people too, to be like, oh, oh, some part of me is never quite attending because I'm just thinking, it's that white guy game. And when they look at you, expressing yourself that way, they appreciate that. Can I clarify something? I'm not sure if I completely understood what he said, but I heard. Are you saying that she's trying to grab by something? Are you saying that? Do you need a clarification? No, please.

[41:33]

Well, when you said these factors, are you saying that when you think that way, that kind of cuts off your receptivity to what we could learn there. Is that what you're saying? I don't know if it cuts it off. It undermines that this is available for me too. There's some part of me that identifies with, you know, in my mind, I'm like, I'm not male, not in that position of authority, not those things all my life. So there's some part of me that, but just now I was realizing this is dharma that I could learn and actually that all of us could take in and embody and be and fully express, which I feel like is the real encouragement. But if I'm not attending to that part that sees those other factors giving realm authority and not me, then I don't totally hear and feel my own authority to express myself. If you don't attend to it. If I don't attend to it. And maybe also if you don't express it.

[42:35]

Right, so that's my experience. How did it go? I think it went pretty well. I think it did too. And I also want to point out a little problem, which I invite your assistance on, is that I just interacted with her. I think you maybe sort of mean maybe the teacher role of affirming that checking that is like paying attention to your karma. Actually, paying attention to your delusion. It's a delusion to think that she, because of who I am, can't be who she is. That's a delusion. But when she attends to it, she can be free of it. And when she expresses it, though, when she attends to it and expresses it, also that will aid her being free of it. So that's me being a teacher now in response to that. But I think maybe we also need a facilitator. If I both teach her and facilitate her, maybe that might be a problem, so you can watch and see if somebody else should be calling on people and asking people, like, helping people.

[43:36]

I was trying to help her, but I'm also trying to help all of you see how she just demonstrated looking at her karma, seeing in her karmic field a kind of block, realizing that unless you attend to that, the block will be very influential. And also experimenting with expressing it might kind of loosen it, which I really think that's a big part of what I'd like all of us to do, is express our delusions about how we're blocked so we see that they move when they do that. Even anyway they move, if you pay attention, you'll see that they move. I'd like to go back over there. Judith, you want to come up? I think you said if you approved the way-thinking mind talks, there'd be a whole group of people that'd be really happy, and if you didn't, there'd be a whole group that'd be really depressed.

[44:52]

I didn't say that. No. I said... My mind imagined that there was a cognitive... That's what I thought. That's not really true. That's my own cognitive imagination of my relationship with the group. Right. That's my karma, is that I think, oh, if I do it, some people will be happy, and if I don't, some people will be unhappy. I was dealing with that. I guess I had a cognitive... idea that there might be a whole group of people, maybe even a lot, who would say, gosh, your practice period here, you're having a really strong feeling about this, okay, let's just drop it and go on. Yeah, I can turn into that channel, too. And that channel's not that bad to turn into. It's easy for me to turn into that one. It's easy for me, too. That's my feeling. So something about our talk this morning here feels rich, and something about it feels like, let's go on.

[45:54]

Let's go on. Yeah, let's go on. Yeah, I'm just about there, too. Thank you. And when she went back, and I would ask her, any suggestions about where we go? Genjo Koan? Genjo Koan. OK, Genjo Koan. And I really want to invite you all to express yourself throughout whatever kind of study we're doing together. So including, like, this moment, any other.

[47:04]

And this expression here is gen-gyo, OK? And then there's a koan about how, there's a koan. So how is what the reverend's doing now against your koan? Okay, let's go. Come up here, please. I'd like you to... Oh, this is nice. I feel I have a lot of questions, and I want to voice, and I want to talk, and I want to hear other people, and there is just not enough room. And I feel selfish if I say things, and so many other people have to be quiet. Okay. Now, when you were saying that, was the body of the people quiet while you were talking just then? Did it kind of bother you? No, but I have a lot more to say. But that much we felt okay about.

[48:09]

Yes. I think that's good that when we're speaking we should be sensitive to whether the group wants us to continue to talk. And I think if we stop and check, The group will sometimes say, that was enough, thank you. Okay. Do you want to say anything more before you go? I'll try then. Can she say a little bit more at this point? After you're talking, I'll check. I'm very interested in karma and to explore what it really means. Is it all delusion or is there something permanent about it? So there are lots of things that I want to explore because it's very confusing. Karma's confusing. Yeah.

[49:09]

Yeah, because karma is a picture of your relationship with the world. And that can be quite confusing. Like, do these people support me? Do some of them support me? Or no? Do I support some of them, all of them, or no? I have bodhisattva vow of supporting everybody. How does that go with what I'm doing right now? Looking at that kind of stuff can be confusing. So studying confusion is similar to studying delusion. It's similar to study... So confusion and delusion are not identical. Because when you seek, or I should say, delusion is confusion, actually. But when you look and see that it's confusion, you don't you're more open to it being delusion. But when you look and see it's the truth, and it's delusion, you don't necessarily want to see the confusion.

[50:18]

So anyway, this kind of study is quite confusing. I was challenged by the confusion of this deck for the last few days. Can I get that? Sure. Tim, want to come up? Everyone stand up. So yesterday at the diversity study group, we did an exercise where we broke up into groups of four or five. I think it was four. After five minutes, we gave a story, which was to talk about our identity from the standpoint of our culture, our ethnicity, our race, and some other factors, class, for instance. And the last issue that everybody was asked to kind of get into was how does this help or hinder, whether wise or poor, our dharma practice, our dharma study. And many people weren't able to get to that question in the five minutes that was allowed.

[51:22]

And so, but what was interesting was that in the span of 20 minutes, there were 20 stories or something like that, express 20 karmas that were expressed to others and you within oneself, albeit what it contained. One container was 20 minutes long. This was a five minute per person container. And so that, I felt, I heard some feedback that people felt that was, I'll be short, very interesting process to go into. But people weren't interested in doing process. Pardon? Other people weren't interested in doing process. Were not interested in process. Which I think I've heard in this larger group, too. Some people are interested in doing that process. People were not interested in doing that process. Right. They're interested in something other than that, which we don't know what that is yet. Right. Okay. Well, again, I had invited a number of meetings I had with people.

[52:27]

I've said, please, I don't know what led me to this, but I said, please express to me how you see our relationship, or how you see yourself in a relationship, which is to ask the person to tell me a story about how they see our relationship. It's not tell me a story about what our relationship is and believe that it's true, because none of this is a story about our relationship. So I publicly and individually ask you to tell me how you see yourself in relationship to me. Also, I'd be happy to hear how you see yourself in relationship to the community. In fact, people do come and tell me about how they see themselves in relationship to the community. But sometimes when they're doing it, what they tell me is that they're looking at the shore. about looking at the boat. And I sometimes say, look at the boat now and tell me how the boat's related to the shore. Don't just tell me about the shore. So some people want to come and talk about the people in the community or whatever.

[53:31]

OK, just a second, stop. Tell me about the boat before you tell me about the shore. And then you can tell me how the boat is related to the shore. Tell me the story of your relationship. And I'm asking that of people in individual interviews. Now, someone might say, well, I think that would work in individual interviews. Because you want to hear that, and they may be willing to tell you. But it's not clear that everybody is up. It might be that your story is, that you're not up to hear a bunch of people's story about their relationship with you. But I think we could talk about something like that. how such an activity is related to dharma, one answer that I would give is, to me, that sounds like a possible way for people to study their karma. But that's not very exercised. So to me, it sounds like it ties in really well. But then, again, to make it, to make it, what's the word?

[54:39]

Somebody made some sounds there. Accessible. What? Accessible. Accessible. What were you going to say? Mandatory. Mandatory. Got to be careful to say, okay, everybody do this exercise. So I'm inviting this myself. And then if somebody does this in your presence and then you don't like it, I invite you to tell your story about how you don't like the process of them telling their story. and to try to do that, but as an expression of your awareness of your delusion. That's the nice thing I like about practicing delusion is you don't really think, you know, you realize this is a deluded picture. There's some delusion in this. So I think that will make us more gentle with each other. Any responses to what Tim said about this exercise? Yes. I'm just curious, were you done speaking, Tim?

[55:42]

I mean, was that, you just wanted a prayer that some people had difficulty doing the process? I could be done. Did you have a different intention when you started to speak? Nothing formed. You satisfied? Okay. Yes, sir. What I heard, which I'm not sure you said, I kind of heard kind of implied in what Tim was saying, I could have heard it tentatively putting out a forum in which instead of taking a lot of time for people to do the way-seeking mind talks, people could meet in smaller groups and go through some kind of process of really exposing themselves to two or three or four or five people. And you didn't come out and say it in these words, but that's kind of what I thought I heard, is that those were at least coming out there, but this was a thought which might work for us, coming back to your point of without doing away seeking mind talks, still really getting honest and exposing ourselves.

[56:49]

That's what I thought I heard. And hearing that, I thought, uh-huh. The second part is, yeah, I think there might be some potential there. Yeah, I felt that way too. And I'm sensitive to considering the process of how to do that without allowing people who don't want to do it to not do it. But all the people who don't want to do it, I would herd them into a concentration camp And I'll go find out what they do want to do. So it could be like all those who'd like to do that, we could do it. And all those who don't, we could. All those who don't want to, they would be coming together. All the rebels sit together and talk about what we want to do. And we might wind up basically doing the same thing, but in a rebellious way. Linda, would you like to come up here?

[57:55]

Not really. Not really? Wait a second. What do you want to do? I'm shy, so I don't want to be up here. But I will be, because I'm getting annoyed. And I figure that the sooner I speak, the better I will articulate, because I'll be less annoyed. If I wait too long, I will become less articulate. But I spent 15 years doing psychotherapeutic processes, which this is very much like. And I find it very valuable. I mean, essential work. I devoted 15 years of my life to it, and I don't regret it. However, that is not... I think that that is... like having two meals in front of you. Something that is delicious but doesn't have the essential nutrients that you really need to sustain your life, but it's familiar food.

[59:07]

So everybody wants to eat it because they know they like it. And then there's this other food that It might even be distasteful, but it has the essential nutrients. And I feel like this special thing here at Tassajara with over 70 serious meditators to really create that container you're talking about in the Zendo that generalizes to everywhere from the bathhouse to our beds while we're sleeping at night. It would be, to me, a loss that I could cry over that we would all be here and throw that opportunity away in order to do psychological self-expression. Which is valuable, but I don't think this is the best use of the opportunity that we have here.

[60:16]

And I would say that your intuition If I could add my intuition of your intuition is that something wants to happen here. And Mara will throw up ways to prevent it from happening. But I would like divas to come and make it happen. And maybe that happens through way-seeking mind talks, but it never happened in the other venues I was in, in psychological processing. And to me, pardon me for saying so, but it feels like there, with the nature of our delusion and karmic hindrances, and the whole collective of Western people

[61:18]

ego that we degenerate you know we kind of go into a lesser container I don't quite know how to say it there's a well as Robert Frost said the road more traveled and the road less traveled and I'd like us to go for the less traveled and I support your intuition with my own intuition, that your intuition is trying to guide us in the right direction, through the direction that I also want to accompany you in that direction. Yes, isn't it? Do you feel Do you feel good about the practice that you've just gone through in the last few minutes of coming up here and expressing yourself?

[62:31]

Do you feel like that is part of the perhaps nutritious meal? I feel less annoyed. I'm no longer annoyed. And so, yes, it does feel more nutritious. It feels like whatever my meal is is less toxic. Because, you know, someone might say, was this a type of psychological process in which you said was delicious and familiar, but this is something that you need? Or was this part of what you feel you need, of what we just did together here, you and me? Is this part of what you feel is essential? No, it wasn't essential. I could have stopped there and been annoyed. It wasn't an essential thing. I mean, it was important, but not essential. Not in the way that I'm saying that there's something else essential.

[63:35]

I don't feel that I penetrated that. So when you were sitting there feeling annoyed, and now when you came up here and expressed, you still feel like maybe there's something essential that hasn't been reached? Yes. And I feel that I can reach it more easily with a combined effort with the 70 people in here doing . But I can't do it alone. If I could do it alone, I could do it in the world, and I would have needed to come here . OK. Thank you. Yes. Johan, would you like to stand up or come up here? I can stand up here. Yes. Something happened in this room about 45 minutes ago that made me feel kind of unsafe and not so... I felt that when Maria was trying to express herself, she was kind of cut out by you.

[64:42]

And then when she tried to make herself clear, people kind of laughed and it was kind of like Maria was talking for too long and just not making herself clear and everything. And then other people have been much more cared for. you know, invited up and asked if they wanted to express themselves further in support. And it made me feel really uneasy. And I know Chief has the same wing ring. I really don't expect to say anything. I... Yeah, I didn't give it much attention, but I kind of took care of it myself, because I did sense that other people wanted more space, and the question I had wasn't really anything about the people, so I felt fine. Thank you for saying that.

[65:43]

It would make me feel a lot better if we could try to share everybody's expressing themselves. It would mean a lot to me. And that would help people who are afraid or nervous of saying something to stand up and express themselves to. Well, I would invite you to not wait 45 minutes, if it's accessible to you right away. It took a while to go on. And I would invite you, if you felt cut off, to say, wait a minute, please let me say more. And then we could again ask the people. And you could have a dialogue like that. And sometimes you would really express yourself and they would say, you know, they might say no. And then you might feel like, wait a minute, I want her to do it. Whatever, we can do this. And maybe people don't want to do this, but I would be happy to do that. I felt satisfied that whatever, and I asked a question that was important to me and I thought might be important for me.

[66:49]

Yeah, you did. And you got a good point. When I said, maybe it's not important, but I feel satisfied. My question was answered. Do you want me to say something at this time? Do you want me to say something? I can wait. Okay, I'll go. Was that more hard than me? Do you want me? You know, you have some feedback right now? Well, would you let me know in the hour? And then I'll... Well, now that's it. Go ahead and do it. Would you want me to? Yeah, sure. Let's do it. Okay. I thought, I was listening to you, and you made this point, which I thought was a good point about if you hold on too long to your message, What was the word you used?

[67:51]

Check out. You check out. But then, and I thought that was a good point, that if we're talking, this is my experience, if I'm talking and I sometimes think that I have something interesting to say, and if I follow through on what I think is interesting to say too long, because it's a long interesting thing, I check out of being there with what I'm saying. And then I also check out of being in a relationship. And I thought you made that point on the side of it. You check out. But then I asked people, I wondered, did people get that? That was a good point I thought she made. So I checked and I looked around, and I looked at Judy when she came in. You know, she couldn't even answer me. I said, are you there? And I thought, oh, it looks like maybe what you said happened, just happened, but it... Danger.

[68:58]

Yeah. That's what I thought was so interesting. So then when you wanted to say more, I thought, well, let's check to see if they're ready for more. But I thought you made this good point and then you demonstrated it. You demonstrated what you noticed about that can happen. And I demonstrated myself also, this thing myself. I sometimes go to give talks and I walk into the room and I just feel, I look at the people and I feel like saying something because of the looks on their face. And then I say something and that's the end of the talk. You know, it takes me sometimes 45 minutes to finish. And then after 45 minutes, I don't do this so much anymore, but I used to then look down at my notes of the talk I was going to give, which I didn't give, because I actually just responded to the people. And sometimes I've given that second talk, which was the original first talk, so then it makes it an hour and a half.

[69:59]

The first one was fine, it was related. The second one was just this really interesting, irrelevant thing. which I thought was interesting. So I think you made this interesting point, and you've demonstrated it, too. And then you had something else to say. And I think it's even so much that people didn't want to hear from you, but that they wanted to tell you that they didn't want to hear from you. And also, I would say that they kind of wanted to leave it with, you made this really good presentation. You've demonstrated something about our relationship. Which is that when we're talking to each other, if we get too much, if we get into finishing what we're saying rather than staying in connection, the other person checks out. But we also check out. We say, I'd rather finish saying what I have to say to you than stay connected to you.

[71:01]

And I thought you were saying that, basically. But then I look at the people to see if they got this good point, and some of them are going, she left me in Kingston. I think we're responsible together. That's part of what I would invite you to do to me. If you feel like I'm losing contact with you, I invite you to stop me any time. Now, after you stop me, I might say, you know, I think it'd be good if I said a little bit more before we just open it up to... Because my experience is if I walk into a room and people ask questions right away, a lot of people can't follow what's going on. Do you feel connected with, like, you feel like red is connecting with what you said earlier? I feel like it just kind of got moved over and... Well, I feel that I've been glad I brought it up and we talked about what happened.

[72:05]

I don't know if we talked about so much what happened. We talked more about what Maria said, which I think was an important point. But, yeah, I feel resolved now. I have to go. I'm sorry. Do you want to say anything more about this kind of thing, Melissa? about how we can help each other. It's really difficult for me to talk in front of you, but I have tremendous amount of fear, so that's probably why I kind of... I can feel my heart pounding. But I do have a lot coming up, and it cannot stay up. around having this kind of situation where there's, and I really appreciate the fiction very much, and taking the role of being a class, but having a situation where the white man, what's going on, and then there's this group, and we're all just facing it.

[73:07]

And I really want us all to become light. I want us all to play together. And I feel like that can happen naturally, but the spiritual is like, it's conditioning, it's kind of containing things. And I sit here, and I feel its hair, it's so fast. Wow. Yeah. And there are moments when I could have responded in play so that the energy could flow between us equally. But I feel sometimes that I wonder, is the whole setup keeping us deluded beings and keeping the master enlightened? Yep. I'm afraid that what I just said has no relevance on the genre of what Virginia said a lot of the time. I keep quiet about it.

[74:10]

In this present setup, me being the one in the front of the room, would you like me to comment on what you said? Sure. So I'm saying that for you to express yourself, which you just did, I welcome that. I think you just expressed You told us about your karma. You revealed your karma. You not only did verbal karma, but you used verbal karma to tell us about your verbal karma. I mean, about your mental karma. You told us about how you see yourself in relationship to the world and how you see me in relationship to the group. You told us how you see the world here and how you see yourself in relationship to them. I've invited you and others to do that. You did it. So in my view, in my worldview, you have just practiced being aware in the midst of delusion.

[75:12]

And being wholehearted about that, I'm proposing, is the path of leaping free of this story that you just hope. Not into somebody else's story, but into another story which you can leap from, too. So I think what you did was very relevant, and I encourage you to continue. That's my comment. Any response to that, Melissa? I always have a response. My response is, in one way, I totally value what's happening right now. Thank you for your response. In the other, there is the, what part of me wants to get rid of my body. So that's just, there's an ongoing kind of, like, getting it back to, like, me looking back into receptive me, to receive what you're giving me, and so that can become equal again.

[76:13]

so that you can kind of settle down again, so that I can disappear, so that things can reorient. Another one, isn't there? Daddy approves again. But, you know, that didn't accomplish your disappearance. It kind of did. It did? Yeah. So you don't see yourself anymore? The pattern, the field change a little bit? Yeah, right. And the field is changing, but when you look at it, you get to see that it's changing, and when you express it, you get to see that it's changing. So, to your various views of what the world is in relationship to you, those Those are your views, that's your karma. It's the attending and expressing that will liberate us from it.

[77:20]

And not attending and expressing tends to darken it. It's still going on, but it's like in the dark. So, please continue. Tim? So, on a number of occasions describing you as a white man, as teacher, as daddy, that's happened. And I wonder, and I'm watching you receive these messages and then responding to them in the moment. And I'm wondering, so in some ways I see you, trying to leap beyond that, why I can bind Sarah up, and then do it up, and get into the conversation, and yet it still kind of sticks there in the way. It reappears. Yeah. It doesn't actually stick. I don't think it sticks, but it keeps reappearing. Well, it keeps reappearing. And I wonder how do you see it, and how do you care for it?

[78:25]

Care for the pattern? Yeah. besides the way you can see. What's going on inside you? I'm aware that, you know, I'm aware and ready to not do this. As I said before, I'm aware and ready not to be in a position up here in front. I'm willing to change that, but I have to be careful with it. If I left the valley suddenly, you know, that would, you know, wouldn't necessarily be hiring people. So one time at Green College somebody said, this is not what you're saying, but somebody said, you're sitting up there giving a talk, you know, something like, I forgot how she said it, why can't one of us sit up there and give a talk? And I said, well, one of you can. One of you can. So I got off the seat and she got up in the seat.

[79:25]

And then she got off the seat and somebody else got on the seat. And from my perspective, it was great. And then actually at some point in the event, I think I went to the bathroom or something. And I left the room to do so. And when I left the room, I found out later a lot of people are really scared. And we did it the second day, actually. And some quite developed people got really upset. So I'm aware that things are created by having somebody stand in front, and we have to be very careful with this.

[80:30]

And the question is, is it useful to use this thing? Does it have some usefulness? It certainly has dangers, and dangers that can disempower or over-empower. Someone can become too powerful, and other people can be distracted from their own vitality, etc., and many other dangers. So I'm aware of that, and I'm ready to change this a lot. So we have the zendo form, where although I'm sitting in a certain seat, basically we're all kind of like around a circle. There's some equality in the zendo. But we still play with this leadership thing even in the Zendo, of having somebody stand in the middle for service and have some seniority about how that happens, and somebody leaves first, all this stuff. We're playing with this, and there's dangers in having some people leave ahead of other people and come in after other people.

[81:34]

There's dangers in that, and there's power in it, too. For example, in many meditation manuals in India and China and Tibet and so on, they have, before you meditate, you do things like make a mandala, make an altar, make offerings, do prostrations, do chants, walk around the temple, do these kinds of things, and then sit. In Zen temples, one person does that for the whole community. But we could all do it together, but we don't do it that way. We let one person do that ritual for everybody so that everybody can just go sit, rather than everybody spending a lot of time doing these preparations, which actually don't work together very well when all people are doing them together. A whole bunch of people making mandalas is very complicated, actually.

[82:38]

So usually you don't do it that way. One mandala. So I'm just saying that's an example of using these forms of leadership. But I, you know, so this is my way of seeking my own talk again, OK? I'm willing to stop doing this leadership thing right now in this practice period and try to do some other way. I'm willing to try to do that with you. But we have to be careful. I'm willing to not be a leader in practice periods, in sesshins, and so on, but I get this request and I still feel okay about saying, okay, I'll come and, like, tomorrow I'm going to go to... Carmel and be the leader of a one-day sitting in Carmel. I still feel okay about that. It seems to... People feel inspired to practice afterwards or whatever.

[83:40]

So I feel okay, but it's dangerous and I'm... And I want to test myself to see can I give it up? And I want you to test me too. At the same time, It doesn't belong to me, so the way I give it up, you would have to help me. You have to help me in what the way to give it up that really works for everybody. But in this case, I expressed what I personally felt, and you have to dovetail with being white, male, practically here. So then this is a big influential thing. Rev? I spent $5,000 to come here. I did not look for jobs to come here because I wanted to hear you teach. That's why I came here. And if we're going to spend the entire practice period talking about white male authority, diversity, and all these things, well, I don't need to be here.

[84:52]

But what if I want to talk about white male authority? I think that would be good if you do it in the context of what we've been teaching, which I think encapsulates everything that we're going on here today. I do too. But can I talk about white male authority constantly? I came here to drop my story, and I keep going back to Don King. I spent four months with him every day before he died, and he was on fire. He welcomed every person he met with love. He didn't care what your story was. He went to San Quentin, and he loved those people, and they were murderers and rapists. The story didn't matter. Do you need my story to be nice to me and kind to me and compassionate to me? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing here? No, I don't need your story to be nice to you.

[85:56]

Isn't that why we go to work and we can't sit down with each other at a table and talk to each other? And that's the previous question? Yes. I don't need your story to be nice to you. The way I'm nice to you is to ask you to tell me your story. Great. I want to know your story right now. I want to know your story right now. I do want to know your story. I want you to come and tell me your story, and then I can respond to your story. And that's how I'm nice to you, is to ask you to tell me about what you're up to, what you're experiencing, what your activity is right now, and how you're paying attention to it. That's the way I'm nice to you. But I need you to be a person in order to be nice to me. And you are. And then I'm nice to you by asking you to tell me more about what you do. And you just come and offer that to me. So there it is. It's happening. What do you say to that?

[86:57]

How you doing? Fine. Just a second. Could I ask, has anybody who hasn't spoken yet to say something? Yes? In the very beginning, I heard you say something about mental construction, about mental constructions. You were talking about... And so, I think we build a mandala of mental constructions already, right? And so we are studying it. And that's great. And we were talking about We were talking about not adding too much on it. It can get distracted. So what I was hearing was bringing up the diversity of male dominoes. I'm just thinking, well, yeah, that's one mental construction. I have another one.

[88:00]

I mean, I'm constituted with different ones. It's not the male one. But I do have mine. Anyhow, I need to study it. I really need to study it very closely because I'm going with it. So, I don't know, I don't know. And I'm just afraid when I heard Jim speaking, just bringing it up again. I'm just afraid to go too fast to wanting to fix the mental constructions into a different one. You know, wanting to move it over to something that makes me feel more easy. My mental construction are really uneasy and uncomfortable and pretty painful. And I don't think if I'm changing them to a nicer looking one that I'm happier. I don't think that's the solution that's offered here. So that's my offering right now for you. I'm wondering what you heard that gave you the impression that I was trying to change the mental construction.

[89:03]

While you were focusing on the one that was already, like, focusing on just the male dominance. Oh, and that last question. And your last question. It's standing out, you know, but for me, a woman can stand up here, and I have a pretty major mental intersection if there's a woman up here. I didn't think he was asking you to change. I just thought he was asking if I saw that pattern. What, you saw that pattern? And he wanted to know how I was attending to it. Yeah. I thought that's what he was asking. He wanted to know. I guess if this pattern exists and I see it, or even if I don't, if I see some other pattern, I thought he was asking me, how do I practice with the pattern? Right? Yeah. Someone, when I became abbot of Zen Center, one of the old-time students said to me, he said, one time you were doshi in service. And I saw this look on your face, and it was like you didn't know what to do.

[90:07]

You know, you were like totally lost. And I thought, no, he never lost. It must be not true that he's lost, because Reggie never lost. And he said, you might not have been lost, or you might have been lost, but the point is that when you looked lost, I denied that perception because of my idea that you're never lost. And he said, when you're an abbot, I hope you remember that people will do that to you. But even when you're off base, they'll say, oh no, he couldn't be off base. And so that's another thing I have to watch out for, is that even when I'm off base, people might think, he's okay, he's never off base. That's a danger I have to remember in this position here. Of course, some people think I'm always off base, but I don't have to worry about that. That's not such a problem, actually.

[91:09]

I mean, it's their problem, but to me it's like, it's not intoxicating. So I thought he was just asking me how I look at it, and I kind of started to talk about how I look at it. So I, again, in the role of teacher, I accept the responsibility and as teacher I say, it's not about when you see a karmic pattern in your mind and there's one there every minute, it's not about trying to change it. Of course, some of them would be nice if they changed. Like if you have a pattern of, I don't like, I don't want to be devoted to all beings. It'd be nice if that changed into, I would like to be devoted to all beings. But that's not the practice. The practice is look and see what's there. And I'm proposing to you that if you look and see these patterns, not trying to change them, but just learn about them. Learn the pattern. You will see that the pattern is changing. And not only will you see it's changing, but you will see how it changes.

[92:12]

And you'll see that it changes in relationship to you looking at it. And if you don't look for a while, and then look back after a while, you notice that it changed also, but you also notice that you have trouble looking because you're out of shape. Your meditative muscles are limp and lazy because you haven't been paying attention. It's real hard to look, real unclear. The more you look, the clearer you can see. So again, I invite you to, if you don't think I'm looking at something, ask me how I'm looking at it. And I'll either tell you or look. And I want to do the same with you, to ask you, what's the boat doing? And also, if you see me in this role, how do you take care of that too? So how do you take care of the fact that I'm playing this role? What are you doing with that? How do you see yourself in this relationship? Are you studying this?

[93:13]

And if you have a problem with it, I am saying to just express yourself. So in some sense, I'm putting myself here as something for you to express yourself towards, and I invite you to do so. We could take me away, but it might be useful to have somebody to play this game And like I said, before I got off the seat, put somebody else up there, but people didn't like that. So I think you can experiment with taking me away and putting me back and play with it. I think it can be edifying in order to clarify how you see yourself in relationship to the world through this one focal relationship. And then, of course, you want to extend it to everybody. So if it's useful, let's use it. And if it's not, I'm happy to not put somebody else in the seat and just be with somebody else to show that it's interchangeable, because it's not.

[94:17]

But I'm willing to de-emphasize me up in the front kind of thing. But I didn't want to de-emphasize it in the form of way-seeking mind, that particular pattern. I didn't want to do it. But I'm willing to try other things. And so if you have ideas, tell me. And telling me would be tired of it. Tashkent, do you have anything to say? No? I can make something up. Yeah, go ahead and make something up. Well, a little while ago, I was going to say that I felt a little bad for all the, not for all, but for some of the other white males in the room who might not feel as empowered and that we should add some other criteria. But then you and Tim did, actually, the status. That's one thought I have. Yeah, I want to respond to that and say that as my role as Anja, one of the things that's really interesting is playing in the role, as Greg says, as my role as Anja.

[95:33]

One of the things that is interesting is playing in the role of being Anja. So Rep says, I'd like an orange juice. And I say, certainly. And I go to the fridge and I get the orange juice and I come back and I get the orange juice and he says, That'll be all. I don't have anything else right now. That'll do, pig. And it's... It's interesting being in that, to me, being in this role of... I'm kind of appreciating Red being in this, in inverted commas, powerful white male role. who I'm serving because it brings up this dynamic of my relationship with him. So when you said you felt sorry for the other white males, it actually feels really rich for me to be playing against or having a sounding board or a batting partner or something to be playing with rather than

[96:56]

See the stuff. Rather than what? Rather than being impressed by it, I feel kind of engaged with it. From the outside, it might look like a servant, master role. Engaged and vulnerable? Yeah. And I'm vulnerable to him, too. See what happened to the orange juice yesterday. Yes. I guess I have two things to say, if I can remember. Do you want to speak up? Yeah. I had two things to say. The first one was I really agree with the point that many people, including myself, came here because we're here.

[98:04]

Because we're here. I feel, as Eileen said, that I came here because I knew that you were leading this practice. And now that I'm at Tassajara, I see that that was not the only reason to come to Tassajara, but that was my initial motivation. And I would be, I don't know how I would feel, but not happy if you, for whatever reason, stepped out of your role and decided not to teach or not to be a peer, which I don't hear you suggesting, but I hear it kind of comes up again and again. I do hear you suggesting it. It doesn't sound to me like you're seriously considering it, but I had a reaction when I hear that come up. What kind of reaction?

[99:05]

Well, like, I would be, I don't know, not sad, not angry, disappointed, more than disappointed. But I also, too, made it a priority in my life to come here because you were going to be here. And then if you're going to advocate this position because you're being, you know, I don't use the word, okay, attacked, even though that's a strong word. I don't think that's really happening. But something in this direction, I don't know. I would have a strong negative reaction if that were to happen. If I was attacked and I advocated you a strong negative reaction for me, Yeah, if you just said bye, I'm taking my marbles and going home. You'd rather have me stand up and engage in the talk, right? Well, what you've been saying is very, very skillful. You've been using the whole thing from what I see as practice and demonstrating that everything that has been said can be seen in a lot of practice, and I appreciate that.

[100:06]

Yeah. I do appreciate that. So that's what's happening, right? That's what's happening. And you're just imagining that if I would abdicate and go away, you wouldn't like that. That's right. And I don't think that's right to be here. I'm glad to hear that. I think I have to stay in here with you guys. Right? Don't leave, Daddy. Yeah. So... And when I say I'm open to other ways of doing this, whatever I do... will be the way I'm teaching because you have made me the teacher. And you can take me, you can remove me from office of teacher if you want to, but that would be a complicated process because you don't want to. I don't want to know at this point. I don't. So it would be, if they want to, they'd have to deal with you. Yeah, sure. Eileen doesn't want to because she spent big bucks on it. If you and Eileen resist my removal from the position of practice period leave, right?

[101:15]

I would just put it out there that I was very unhappy. Yeah. At this point, I feel like it has been created, that name is positioned for these months. I accept that responsibility, and I have some vision of what that is, and I'm inviting you all to realize that the way I see myself in relationship to you is created by you, not by me. I get to see how I feel related to you. You make me what I am. But I want to tell you that what you made me into is somebody who's willing to be something different if you want me to be. And you just wanted to contribute, but you don't want me to be somebody who's not here. Or somebody who's like, I don't know what, pretending that he's not been made into this position. But I'm not pretending that. I just invite you to realize that you can change me.

[102:16]

But you do change me constantly. And exercise that reality, which you just did. But actually, that leads me to the second point, which is that even though this has been so certainly very skillful, it's gone on way too long for me. Like the meeting that we had. however many nights ago it was. Then we had two days with no Dharma talk, and we just had zazen, and I think that kind of calmed my mind a bit. And now I feel like I personally need a few more days of zazen. My mind is just spinning without this talk. It's been, to a certain degree, skillful, and it could have ended an hour or two ago, from my personal point of view. Maybe not two, but an hour or two. Go ahead, clap if you want to. I'd like to ask Eric a question. Would you want to answer any questions? Even though you said you could swap them out? You could swap them out, but I'm happy to answer them. I'm not abdicating anything by getting the ticket. It wouldn't have gone on too long if it had primarily been a talk from Rev with some discussion interspersed with the talk.

[103:33]

No. Thank you. Not for me, no. It was my privilege. Thanks for that feedback, Sheriff. I just want to stress also that I think that is important that we have this container When we stir up a lot of energy, it's good to, like, calm down with it before we, because at a certain point we can't follow it, right? Kathy, you want to? Yeah, at the risk of having tomatoes thrown at me because I feel like there's a lot of closer energy that people want to be done with this. But I'm actually just sitting here with my heart pounding, and I'd like to speak if people have a little bit more patience. That's okay. Is it okay if she speaks ahead? Okay. I've been completely loving your classes, and I love the format that we've been using where you sit there, you talk to everything. And I don't see today as being any different.

[104:34]

To me, you're teaching today. It's a different form of teaching, and it's, for me in particular, very important teaching. And I just want to say this, because... I come from a community where we're just at the tail end of four years of excruciating pain because our teachers somehow couldn't find a way to talk about what was going on. And we were all confused, because we kept trying to do it in the Dharma, the language of the Dharma, the language of the teachings. And while I think right now, if we all got out the Genjo Koan and read it, we would read what just happened over the last two hours in the Genjo Koan. There's something, and I think we're still awkward in this here, in this country. I think we're trying to find a way, and we're very awkward still. We're crawling our talk. We're not walking again. How do we do this? How do we do this?

[105:36]

Here you are, you're responding to something that you heard in the group and you're wanting to have some conversation about it. And, you know, the idea that you may just read the paper there. No, no, not that. So we're back and forth, we're back and forth. But what I am deeply gratified with buy it through and I thank you for is just some modeling of trying to, how could we do this? What does it sound like to see comments from people and to engage with how to practice? To me, this is the sangha, part of the treasure. And I guess I'm just so still you know, smarted from the wounds of what happens when we go all the way into, well, look, just sit Zazen. Look, we tried that, and we were suffering in our silence. So there's some no ground, and I think this is an experiment in trying to find what's at my dear right. So I guess I thank you for being willing to hang in there and keep this going with the young people's comfort.

[106:39]

A fish swims in the ocean and no matter how far it swims, there's no end to the water. You know, that's the part about if a fish, now if a fish tries to reach the end of its element without moving it, or if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element without moving it, it will not reach or find its way or its place.

[107:54]

So, I think that's what we'll be doing this morning. We'll be swimming around together. trying to find our way and our place. And, you know, I really appreciate the way you've done it. Is there anyone who hasn't spoken and would like to say something? Yes. Huh? Yes, did you hear from him? I most certainly agree with Kathy, and I think... I don't know what to put, but Lisa brought up during the session, I know it felt like the playfulness. I just feel like so many of those teachings and actually getting into like, it's too, it's so intellectual and it's like cool. There's no hugging going on. And I felt like today has been like very warm and intimate and creating us to just stay with each other while we, our stories and yeah this is much more not yeah this is very inspiring for me just a playfulness and that it seemed like applicable to like going into work or as i move like this feels like yeah well of course i'm very happy here that i'm glad that's the way it is for you right now

[109:25]

And can we start that way? I want to hear about that, too. Please. Yes. I also wholeheartedly agree with what Happy and what you just expressed, and I find it terrifying and most important to make myself vulnerable and express myself and to hear everybody else doing that makes me feel sick, like I kind of say, but it's taken me this long to say. And sometimes words feel confusing to me, and I think in what Simon was saying about serving with you as Anja and there's something body-happy in them, And I wanted to ask you if you would consider maybe having a tango class. Did somebody say what? He said... He's going to say what she said. Tango class. Tango. Yeah. I definitely... I don't consider it.

[110:28]

Not the part of the practice committee. Unless, you know, there's some pretty heavy duty people in the committee. Hi, do you want to say something? Do I want to say something? Yeah, do you want to say something? Yeah. What? I said it. Okay. Really? Yes. Really? Please. Eric can handle more vitamins. That's enough. I haven't spoken yet. The first thing that comes up is, I'm really, this is so not my tent, I mean, not the target, really. And what I remember is the last time you were here, last time I was here, and I don't even remember what it was about, but I remember coming out of here, I thought it was a class or something, so I kept a slide in there.

[111:45]

Well, in my point of view... And I remember walking up the sidewalk with the instructor, and I said to him, we're not just talking about it, we're actually living the dilemma. We are inactive based on the things you do. You actually evoke it. And what Kathy is saying, the same thing now. We are actually e-creatives. I also want to say that it was very difficult and I appreciate it. Wow. Thank you, Amin. That's amazing. Thank you. It is difficult, and many people are saying to me during this practice period, it's difficult.

[112:56]

And I say, yeah, this is difficult. That's normal. In dharma practice, it's difficult because you're changing, you know. It's hard to change, even though we are. It's hard to get with the program. And that's part of why I want to do something not... I'm going to have to Zenbo so you can calm down after you do something that's not traditional, that's alive and dangerous. Time to stop, right? Should we go back to Zenbo? Yeah, I think it's... Eric, got to get back to worse, right? Jane? Well, I've been wanting to talk and wanting to not talk for a long time, and I haven't wanted to talk because I didn't feel real clear.

[114:01]

So this is my karmic pattern, because as time is, wanting to, I'm wanting to protect myself from like, fear of reputation, you know, that I might not be clear, it might be bored or something. So now that I've said that, I also have an idea. Um, if we do this more and I really like you know I see this as applying what we're studying so I like I like that I think in this time on the planet we need to trying the teachings outward as well as inward. I thought maybe we could calm down every now and then as we're doing this, like take five minute silent break every now and then.

[115:03]

And also there might be ways we could formulate how we talk that would enhance making sure that we're looking at the both. and not be sure as we speak, and then maybe that would sharpen the way it comes forth as Dharma. Yeah. Anytime anybody wants to typically stop me, anytime, just go like this. You may have to come up and put bread in my face, but I will stop anytime you want me to for a while. I know, I'm just saying, but to stop me. Then usually if I stop talking, it quiets down for a while. So you can stop me, and you can also, I welcome you, if anybody wants to have five minutes of quiet, or six, or two, anytime you want to, raise your hand.

[116:08]

Or if you raise your hand, that isn't the same as this. So I won't necessarily stop talking when you raise your hand. So if you want me to stop and you want to talk right away, do this and then talk. That's okay with me. If you want this, you can talk and you can say, I'd like X amount of time, a quiet time, and I would probably be up to it. I would probably be okay with five minutes. If you want your 40 minutes,

[116:36]

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