Today's talk could be called even further details on the great activity under the patch robe. someone came to meet me and said, from the first time you meet a master without engaging in incense offering, bowing or chanting Buddha's name, repentance or blah blah, just wholeheartedly sit and thus drop away body and mind. What I would like to say is that when you first meet a master, when you meet a master, if you meet a master formally, you offer incense and do prostrations.

[01:30]

So if you look at the story of the person who just gave that instruction, just wholeheartedly sit and thus drop away body and mind. When that person first met his ultimate teacher, when they first met, he offered incense and did prostration. It also says in this book, in this chapter, Shobogenza Dharani, the Dharani of the treasury of true Dharma eyes, it says when you come to meet the teacher and are about to meet formally and offer incense and bow, if the teacher is standing, ask the teacher to sit down or be comfortable.

[02:55]

In some ceremonies we do, some very intimate ceremonies we do in this lineage, when the disciple comes to meet the teacher, the teacher is sitting in the chair. And when the teacher sees the disciple come, the teacher gets down from the chair and stands. And then the disciple says, please sit down. And the teacher sits down, the disciple offers incense and does prostration. So when our amazing ancestor Dogen met Ru Jing for the first time, he offered incense, burned incense, and did prostrations. At that time, according to our ancestor, his teacher Ru Jing said, the Dharma gate of face-to-face transmission between Buddha and Buddha, ancestor and ancestor, is now fully realized.

[04:19]

He said that in their first meeting. And I'll come back to that in a minute. So there is incense offering and prostration. Then Dogen Zenji wholeheartedly sits and drops off body and mind. he practices with Ru Jing and he's able, with the support of the teacher and the Sangha, to wholeheartedly sit and thus drop away body and mind. Then he goes back to Ru Jing after wholeheartedly sitting and dropping off body and mind. And he goes to meet Ru Jing again and offers incense and does prostration. And Ru Jing perhaps says something in Chinese like, well, how are you?

[05:34]

And Dogen says, body and mind dropped off. And Ru Jing says something complimentary. And Dogen says, don't praise me too easily. And Ru Jing says, dropped off body and mind. So in the Zen circus, in the circle of Zen, sometimes it looks like people are just wholeheartedly sitting and dropping off body and mind. Sometimes it looks like they're offering incense and bowing to the teacher. But it's a circle. We cannot wholeheartedly sit and drop our body and mind if we do not honor the teachers.

[06:38]

We cannot do it by ourself. And the teachers can't do it for us. But by respecting the teachers, we receive the teaching to wholeheartedly sit and drop our body and mind. So going back to what I said earlier, which I said I'd come back to, when Ru Jing says the Dharma gate of face-to-face transmission is now fully realized, usually in the past when I think of that story, I think, oh, wow, they just met and the Dharma transmission is realized. I still think that's part of what it's about. But now, in this practice period, I'm emphasizing that the practice of offering incense and bowing, that realizes, that's the realization of the Dharma gate of face-to-face transmission.

[07:49]

It's not so much that Dogen's this great guy, which he is, or that you are, which you are. It's not so much that, it's not about you or me, it's about the practice. When that practice is done, the Dharma gate the face-to-face transmission is fully realized, which is the same as saying, when there's this formal meeting in the world, when there's this formal meeting in the world, the Dharma's in the world. And there's a difference between the Dharma transmission that happened when Dogen Zenji first met Ru Jing and two years later they had another Dharma transmission ceremony. This one, Ru Jing gave him a driver's license, documents of succession.

[08:59]

So there's different kinds of dharma transmission. One kind of dharma transmission is that for some reason or other somebody says something to you and then you wholeheartedly sit and body and mind is dropped away. That's dharma transmission too. Once you offer incense and bow, then you don't have to offer incense and bow you just sit. And most of the people in this community come to the zendo and just sit. And then the person who's acting as the doshi comes in and offers incense and bows on behalf of the whole sangha. We're trying to reduce global warming by not having everybody burning incense before they sit.

[10:12]

But the doshis doing it for you. I now offer you another story about some more attendance, lots of attendance. Lots of stories about attendants and also most of the stories about people who aren't attendants are told by the attendants. So once there was a great teacher named Guishan, Chinese person, and he had many disciples. Actually, he's not in our direct lineage, but he's definitely part of our lineage because he was a teacher to our founder of the Soto school in China, Dongshan Liangzhe, so Tozan Ryokai.

[11:34]

So Tozan went to him and asked him about a teaching he heard about concerning insentient beings expounding the Dharma. And he didn't understand the teaching and he went to see Guishan to talk about it. Our ancestor, Dongshan Liangjie, visited many of the great teachers in China. There were lots of them at that time. Lots of monks were offering incense and bowing and just sitting and dropping off body and mind. And so he asked Guishan about the story of In San-Chi-Ping's expounding the Dharma and Guishan asked him if he could recite the story and he said yes he could and he recited the story to Guishan and when he finished the story he said he didn't understand and could Guishan help him and Guishan raised his whisk

[13:04]

and said, do you understand? And he said, no. And he asked him if he could, Dongshan Liangzhe asked him if he could tell him more. And he said, the mouth born of my mother and father cannot say anything more for you. However, I do have a A friend who I think you could respect, so he gave him a referral to one of his friends named Ungan Donjo, Yun Yan. So Guishan is very important in our lineage. in that way among others. He's also important for many other stories that have been transmitted to us about his practice.

[14:07]

Now he had many disciples, as I said, and two of them were his attendants. And one of them was named Yangshan. Yangshan is also sometimes called Little Shakyamuni. So Yangshan went to see his teacher. Or you could say his teacher was lying down and Yangshan went to see him. And when Yangshan went to him, his teacher turned over and laid on his side facing the wall. And Yangshan said, I'm your student. Please don't be so formal. Or another translation is, I'm your student.

[15:11]

Don't turn your backside to me. So Guishan started to get up. But by then, Yangshan had already started to leave. And Guishan said, Yangshan's full name is Yangshan Huiji. Or Yangshan, I think, yeah, Huiji. So Guishan says, Huiji! Huiji! And so Hui Ji comes back. And then Guishan said, let me tell you about my dream. And Hui Ji leans forward to listen. And Guishan says, I want you to see, I want to see how you would interpret it.

[16:19]

So Hui Ji immediately went and came back with a towel and a basin of water. Just like Dogen says we should do. Always bring a towel and a basin of water. Now he said that a long time ago. He didn't realize that we don't usually carry a basin of water with us. But actually at Tassajara, by the instruction of Reverend Fain, he should always have a water flask with you that says Tassajara on it if possible. And a little towel. So that if you ever run into anybody, you've got your water flask and towel to offer to them So thank you very much for instructing the monks to carry their water bottle with them.

[17:31]

But don't bring it in a zendo, please. Check your water bottles at the door. Which, by the way, I heard that in the old days of Tassajara, hot springs, where our old zendo used to be, which is now the student eating area. That used to be what's called a dining room, but sometimes called a bar. And people were supposed to check their guns at the door. People came to Tatara with guns on horses to hunt pigs. and they were supposed to not bring their guns into the bar. So now we don't tell people not to bring their guns into the bar, but we say, check yourself and your water bottles at the door of the Zendo.

[18:43]

But when you leave the Zendo, you can pick up your water bottle and yourself again, and then you'll be ready to serve. the Buddha ancestors, and realize the face-to-face transmission. So finally I get to the story of Yangshan bringing the basin, the flask of water, and the towel, which he gives to his teacher, and his teacher then washes his face and dries it with the towel. And then he sat up, right, and dropped off body and mind. That actually you won't find in the text.

[19:49]

That's my editorial. Then another attendant named Xiang Yan came and Gui San said, Kweji and I have been sharing miracles. And these miracles are like one step beyond the usual miracles. They're not like the small miracles of the small vehicle. These are like, this is my editorial comment, these are great miracles of the Mahayana. The great miracles of Mahayana are bringing water and towel to your teacher.

[20:57]

So Xiang Yan says, I was in the wings next door. Some people who don't speak English as a first language might not know what in the wings means, is that right? In the wings means like on a stage, on a performance, the edge of the stage is called the wings. So the stage is where this miracle is happening. And Xiang Yan was in the wings next door. He said, I was in the wings and I saw everything clearly. I witnessed everything clearly. And Guishan says, Disciple, you must try now.

[22:18]

Xiangyang immediately goes and makes tea and brings it. And then Guishan praises both of the attendants, saying, your miraculous powers and wisdom are far superior to those of Mahamadgaliana and Shariputra." Mahamadgaliana and Shariputra were Buddha's head monks. Shusos. He had two Shusos. And Mahamadalyana was foremost among Buddhist disciples in miraculous powers. And Shariputra was foremost in wisdom.

[23:25]

Shariputra. That's why he's in the Heart Sutra. For Avalokiteshvara's student in the Heart Sutra. So these two disciples transcend the Buddha's attendance, Guishan says. So this is a story of paying respects to the teacher In this situation, the miracle of dropping off body and mind, the miracle of realizing the essential pivot is realized. There's several other comments that Dogen Zenji makes in this Dharani of Treasury of True Dharma eyes.

[24:55]

And one of them is that when we are prostrating ourselves to our teacher, who transmit Dharma to us, we do so regardless of time or place. Sometimes we do prostrations. Also, here's another example of complementary translations. is one. Sometimes we do so while we are lying down. Or while we are eating. Or while we are going to the toilet. Another translation is sometimes we do prostration while the teacher is lying down or eating or even while the teacher is going to the toilet.

[26:14]

Sometimes we prostrate from afar with fences and walls between us. like Muslims do, right? They prostrate to Mecca with walls and fences and skyscrapers between them and Mecca. Dogen says, sometimes we do too. Sometimes we prostrate with eons between us. In the morning we prostrate to beings who are eons away. Sometimes we prostrate with birth and death between us. Sometimes we prostrate with enlightenment between us and nirvana between us. So I feel touched that our practice is very close to Islam in this way.

[27:35]

When I say our practice, I mean our practice if I join the people who say that our practice is prostration. Suzuki Roshi's teacher, Gakuj and so on, was big on prostration. I heard he was somewhat proud about the callous on his forehead. I think Suzuki Roshi was a little shy to tell us about prostration. But as far as I remember him going to recommend it was to say something like, excuse me, but it's good exercise. I think he was right. If he thought this, I think he was right, that if he had pointed out to people this practice, a lot of them would have left Zen Center.

[28:53]

because they would have thought, oh, how arrogant he is to tell us about bowing to the teacher. He's the teacher. He never told us to bow to him, that I remember. But now that the Dharma is well established, I can mention this to you. If almost everybody leaves, it's OK, because more will come. we've grown up a little bit, we can stand to hear the inter-sanctum of the tradition, which is bowing, which is paying respects until you see, oh, Buddha! Pay respects to ordinary, [...] ordinary people

[29:58]

as an opportunity to see Buddha, who is not an ordinary people. I actually would like to discuss with you what this great teacher is at some point soon. But even before I discuss it with you, you might be able to see the great teacher. So again, it says when we're bowing to the great teacher, the one who transmits Dharma to us, you don't have to bow to not great teachers. Unless you wanted to just sort of get into the bowing so that you can see the great teacher and then bow to the great teacher. Could you follow that? Thank you.

[31:08]

Kichizawa Iyan, his teacher was Nishiari Bokusan, and one day Nishiari Bokusan said to Kichizawa Iyan, You are not my disciple." And Kishizawa Iyan said, maybe he said something like, , why? Why am I not your disciple? Nishayari Bodhisattva said, well, because you only bow to me like in the Doksan room or in the Buddha hall. But you don't bow to me when I'm lying down or like going to the bathroom. So you're not my disciple.

[32:21]

Yesterday someone bowed in the direction of me in the dirt. Didn't even have a bowing cloth to bow on. It got all dirty bowing in the dirt. So now that I'm saying this, I'm well aware that some people may start bowing to me or bowing to somebody in some unusual spots. So it makes me kind of want to hide out in my cabin. But anyway, that's what it says here, don't worry about time and place. But it does say someone who has transmitted dharma to you, so There it is.

[33:34]

That's sort of a translation from the text. It also says that while the disciple performs these many kinds of prostrations, the teacher does not return the prostrations. but only joins the palms. And it says occasionally the teacher may do a single prostration but in general does not. So that's an instruction which has been given. In the manuals for some ceremonies we do, it says that the disciple does such and such bow and the teacher does not return the prostration.

[34:48]

Teachers usually do return gassho, join the palms, is usually returned. Or join the palms and then a standing bow or a sitting bow is often returned. But frustrations are generally not returned. And there are stories about the exceptions to the general rule. So Blanche Hartman, for example, I think said one time she was bowing to Suzuki Roshi and he got up and bowed to her. And somebody else told me that that happened between Suzuki Roshi and themselves. The thought did cross my mind. Hmm. But that never happened with me and him. And I have, on some occasions, myself done it with people.

[35:49]

But generally, in the formality of the ritual... it says for the teacher to play this role of the receiver of the prostrations rather than the returner. However, in the manual for the Shisou ceremony it says that the teacher, the head student, the head seat, comes and does three bows and then at the end does three more bows. And in the second set of three, the teacher, the Dharma flag teacher, does one in response. So in that manual, it says that would be an exception to the rule. And you could imagine, well, it's just emphasized what a special training situation this is. But this is a tender issue of democracy and hierarchy.

[37:00]

All these things are in our minds around these things. Another miracle I wanted to share with you is the ancestor Dogen Zenji saying that when the world-honored one, Shakyamuni Buddha, was alive, all sentient beings, humans and non-humans alike, came to him for refuge. So he had human students, but he also had divine students, and he also had other kinds of non-human students.

[38:07]

And when they came to him for refuge, they prostrated themselves to the Buddha And the point I'm raising here is not only that, but they faced north. So in this room, when the doshi is prostrating the boat, doshi is facing north, pretty much. Does anybody ever use a compass to see how much this is north-south oriented, this room? Is it pretty north? Anybody know? Pretty north, yeah. So the bowing to the altar that the doshi does or the jisha does is in the traditional direction. And the city center also, the city center Buddha Hall is oriented that way. And Green Gulch also is kind of oriented that way, although Green Gulch is

[39:12]

It's hard to know what direction anything is at Green Gulch. But it actually is sort of, I think, towards the north, the altar. And yesterday, when I was sitting here, and some people were prostrating south. But I was trying to prostrate north, but I couldn't. But I just want to point out that Dogen Zenji is making some effort to write some paragraphs on the importance of that since, you know, and when, particularly he mentioned that his first five disciples, when they went for refuge in him, they faced north and did prostrations. And since that time, all the all who have come into the Buddhist orders to receive the refuges and wishing to devote themselves to the true Dharma have naturally prostrated themselves facing north.

[40:28]

This is the state of compliance with the right Dharma. It is beyond the plans and intentions of teachers and disciples. this is the great Dharani itself. And then it says, there is a great Dharani and it is called the mind of round, complete enlightenment. There is a great Dharani and it is called formal meeting. There is a great Dharani and it is called the realized prostration.

[41:34]

There is a great Dharani and its name is the patch-robe. There is a great Dharani and its name is The Treasury of True Dharma Eyes. When I read this, I thought, oh, that's a Dharani. What I just said was a Dharani. Actually, when I was reading it, I was saying it. I was chanting it. I woke up to that I was reading a Dharani explaining the Dharani. And then the next thing Dogen says is that by chanting this Dharani, which he just wrote, by chanting this Dharani we have pacified and protected the whole earth.

[42:36]

By chanting this Dharani, we have calmed and protected the whole earth. By chanting this Dharani, what Dharani? There is a great Dharani and its name is the patch robe. The patch robe is the great Dharani. There is a Dharani and its name is the formal meeting. By chanting this Dharani, we calm and establish the whole universe. By chanting this Dharani, we calm and build the whole world of Buddha. All the Dharanis see this Dharani as their mother word. All Dharanis make this Dharani their consonants and syllables. Therefore, know the Prajnaparamita as a great miraculous mantra.

[43:46]

There is a Dharani and its name is a patch robe. That's a Dharani. When you say that, that's a miraculous Dharani, or just a Dharani. And it removes all suffering. And it's true, not false. That's a proclamation. A Dharani is a proclamation of the miraculous power of a practice. All Buddhas arouse aspiration endeavor in the way, attain the way, and turn the wheel of Dharma from the gate of this Dharani. What Dharani? There is a Dharani and its name is a formal meeting.

[45:05]

There is a Dharani and its name is the Oksa. There is a Dharani. and its name is the Shobo Genzo. Enlightenment is a Dharani. It's not just a state. It's a state which proclaims itself in order to benefit beings. It's not just a great, wonderful thing. It's a chant. It's a show. It's a performance. you might think, even if it wasn't a performance, it would still be great. But it's not that kind of thing. It's a kind of thing which is not only great, but it's a performance. It's an enactment which has an effect. This being so, you

[46:12]

There's another difference in translation. This being so, you, who are descendants of the Buddha ancestors, should thoroughly and painstakingly investigate this Dharani. Or we, who are Buddha's disciples, who are descendants of Buddha ancestors, should thoroughly investigate this Dharani. And then a final nice parallel translation is that in sum, that which is covered, that which is covered by the patch robe of Shakyamuni Buddha has been covered

[47:17]

by the robes of the Buddha ancestors. Could the kitchen just stand still for just a minute and listen to this? Is that okay? That which was covered by the robe of Shakyamuni Buddha, that same thing has been covered by the robes of the Buddha ancestors. And that which is covered by the robe of the Buddha ancestors is that which is covered by the patch robe right now. And the other translation is, to be wrapped in the robe of Shakyamuni Buddha is to be wrapped in the robe of the Buddha ancestors.

[48:23]

To be wrapped in the robe of Shakyamuni Buddha is to be wrapped in the robe of Shakyamuni Buddha. To be wrapped in the robe of Shakyamuni Buddha is to be wrapped in the robes of all Buddha ancestors. to be wrapped in the robe of all Buddha ancestors. And Shakyamuni Buddha is to be wrapped in the patch robe. Thank you for waiting. So some of you might think, well we should have a sewing class soon. I'm really not trying to get everybody that doesn't have a patch robe to get one, really not. I'm just saying if you've got one, what that robe's wrapped around is what Shakyamuni Buddha's robe was wrapped around.

[49:38]

I'm saying that because Dogen Zenji said it. Reverend Thorne just said that she was thinking about bowing to the acharyas.

[51:05]

Is that what you said? And would you like to come up and say something about that? Or do you want to... You can take a shortcut if you want. Is that okay if she walks between you two? You can speak to me or you can speak to the sangha, whichever you like. You said the bowing? You could just bow to the not great teachers to get in the Yes. Yes. Yes. Can you hear her? Here you can use this. So we have the established Dharani of bowing to the daishos, to our lineage.

[52:27]

And then a rabbi said you can also bow to the not great teachers or just start the bowing. Get into the motion or into the Dharani. Some of us do prostrations to the acharyas, and the teacher doesn't bow to the acharyas. And since the acharyas appeared in our services, which is a long time ago, I'm watching this, and I don't understand it. And in a recent meeting you said, your responsibility is for the established lineage of the dhyoshas, but not for the acharyas.

[53:30]

And that kind of didn't answer the question. So this morning I read Dogen saying, for a teacher who has transmitted Dharma to you, You can do prostrations regardless of time or place. So I do do prostrations to the teachers who have transmitted Dharma to me. I do not feel that these teachers have transmitted Dharma to me. I do not feel that they have recognized me and given me that responsibility. So I feel uncomfortable. I feel it's not, for me, genuine for me to do that. Maybe someday I will feel that way. But right now, that's not how I feel. You also said, but I said you can bow to someone if you don't.

[54:36]

If you can't find anybody to bow to, that you think is transmitted Dharma to you, you can start beforehand. But I've already found not just somebody, but many buddies that I consider have given me this gift. If I couldn't do it to anybody, and did I ever bow before I found someone like that? I don't think so. And I think perhaps some people here are struggling with that now, that they haven't found or that sometimes can't find somebody like that and they still... So I feel the discomfort around me doing it perhaps differently than you do. When you do the service, do you prostrate to the Acharyas? Yeah, so I feel some discomfort that you do it one way, I do it another.

[55:40]

But if you feel that they've transmitted Dharma to you, and you're bowing in that regard, then I don't feel so much discomfort. Because they're your teachers. You feel responsibility to their teaching. Maybe you do. I don't feel responsibility to carry on their teaching. Even though I know a little bit about their teaching, I don't really feel the way I do about the other teachers. There are certain women who are not usually called acharyas who I do prostrate to privately. but they're not here in this lineage here that's been offered for service. So this morning during the acharyas I lowered myself to chant their names but I did not do the formal meeting with them.

[56:44]

I do not feel that they've invited me to have a formal meeting with them nor have I requested to have a formal meeting with them. I do not feel like I'm bowing to them across the eons or across the mountains and rivers. I do not feel like I'm bowing to Muhammad, the Prophet. I do not feel like I'm bowing to Jesus Christ, the Savior. I do not wish to in any way devalue Jesus or Muhammad. or the female acharyas. But currently I do not feel quite like doing prostrations to them. Maybe I will someday. Maybe I will someday do prostrations to Muhammad. But I guess almost nobody at Zen Center has a problem with me not doing prostrations to Muhammad or Jesus.

[57:49]

I also appreciate many Jewish teachers like Baal Shem Tov. I really appreciate the stories of his life, but I don't do prostrations to him. And I don't feel responsible for his tradition, although I think I do kind of support it. How do you feel about your students bowing to the Acharya? Are you a student of mine? I hope so. If you feel that Jesus Christ or Pope Benedict or Brother David have transmitted Dharma to you and you feel responsible to them, if you feel that these female ancestors have transmitted Dharma to you and you wish to serve them and be responsible to them, I completely support you to do that.

[59:00]

I actually, when people who have a so-called student-teacher relationship with me go study with other teachers, other good teachers, I appreciate that, that they can do that, that I'm not able to visit all these teachers. So I'm happy that if you can find, if you can receive Dharma from other lineages or other channels, it's fine with me. Pardon? Can you do what? introduce the Jariya as we say. that these are the names of the women ancestors that are known and unknown. And so what I understand through when you say that is that we're paying respect to them and that we're acknowledging that there are women ancestors and that perhaps we don't know who they are, all of them.

[60:17]

So these are the names that we're utilizing. So in that vein, I guess, my understanding is that we're kind of using them as a symbol for the women teachers that we can pay homage to in this ceremony. So maybe this question is for both of you, actually. Why are we chanting those names? if not as a symbol for the women that we don't know of in our lineage. Yeah, it's right here. It's right in the middle. Go ahead. You can go first. Ladies first sometimes. My question for Anna was, why are you bowing to them? But maybe, Rev, you could answer the first question. I just want to say that

[61:19]

At the end of bowing to the lineage that I feel has invited me to come and meet them, and which I'm happy to meet and happy to give my life for, at the end of that, I'm bowing. I'm prostrating. And I stay there when it says known and unknown. I stay for that part. I'm okay with that. There's some unknown lineage that I feel responsible for. But when the names are said, somehow that doesn't work for me, those names. You say, well, how about as a symbol? Well, fine, if somebody wants to use that symbol. I don't want to use that symbol. For me, known or unknown would be enough for me. And if you wanted to say known or unknown and have me stay down for half an hour, well, I'm perfectly comfortable down there. But to do the same ritual for these names, somehow I don't feel yet ready to say yes.

[62:33]

But I do feel comfortable with being prostrated for known and unknown, and I do do ceremonies where I prostrate myself three times and say the name of certain women teachers in my life. who are living and dead. I do that, but those are my own particular... I'm not their successor, I'm just grateful to them. So that I feel comfortable with. But those are people that I definitely feel they invited me. Like Suzuki Roshi's wife. I call her teacher mother. So she's my teacher mother. My teacher's mother, my mother through my teacher. So I feel perfectly... That is my... thing with her and Nakamura Sensei. I have teachers like that, but the names that are made as symbols here somehow don't work for me. That's how I feel. For example, Mahapachapati

[63:41]

was on most of the altars of the nunneries that I visited in Ho Chi Minh City in January. So there is obviously also kind of a need for women places to have women images, which has to do with the transmission from body to body. And it is, of course, symbolic. And it is a Durrani. And I can't tell you much about all the women's because it's just starting to explore what it is. Thank you for bringing this up. How about the cake seller?

[64:45]

Yeah, so she fits right nicely into the known and unknown part. I'm very happy to bow to her. I haven't got direct confirmation from her in writing that I'm her successor. But I do venerate, although I'm not in the lineage of her brother or cousin or whatever he was, I do really appreciate him. But if you had a lineage, if there was chanting of the lineage of Tian Huang, Da Wu, Long, Tan, Chong, Xi, De, Shan, Shui, Feng, although I really appreciate these people, I would feel funny doing prostrations to that lineage because it's like I'm intruding in their family affair without them inviting me.

[66:01]

I just feel funny about it. Kind of like, am I saying, what am I saying by that? Am I saying I'm a successor in that lineage too? And then I can do Yun Men and Fa Yun and all these, I'm a successor to all these lineages? Is that what I'm saying? I haven't had a conversation with these people. They haven't done ceremonies with me. So I kind of would hesitate to do that And would you come up please? Would you feel okay if I lower my head during the acharya chanting while you're the doshi?

[67:27]

Well, I guess I think there should be some discussion about that because then other people would perhaps want to start to lower their heads. And so then we're changing the form, are we? Or just for this practice period, you know? So I just hope you be very careful. I can't say I don't feel okay about it. I just hope you be very careful because, yeah, be very careful that you aren't in any way, praising yourself at the expense of others, then other people, other women or men may feel like, well, if she's doing, maybe I should, or who does she think she is to put me in this spot? I would consider it carefully for some time before you do it because it might kind of like you could maybe ask other members of the Sangha how they'd feel if you did that. See if they would feel okay about you doing it and see... I would guess that you feel okay about them not doing it.

[68:38]

About people not... Not bowing their heads. Yeah. So maybe if they all knew that you felt okay about them not doing it and everybody knew that you and others who were bowing their heads... Yeah. We're okay with people not bowing their heads. So be careful. And you're also just talking about only doing it when I'm the doshy? Well, I was thinking of doing it when it's not happening. And I think it's only not happening. Well, I don't know. When it is happening, I feel represented in my wish to bow. But when it isn't happening, I do notice there's something not represented. You feel unrepresented. Particularly since this came up in the Choson, I have to say I haven't for years felt this. But I have been reflecting on it a lot since it came up in the Choson. And I've been actually feeling the urge to lower my head.

[69:44]

But I agree with you. I feel like I wish to take care. And so I haven't done it. But I have been thinking about it. And as I've been thinking about it, I feel more and more invited. by the women ancestors to think about it and ask about it. Well, I feel deeply touched by you telling me that you feel unrepresented. I think it's really important that you feel represented in the ceremonies, that when somebody is offering incense you don't feel like you have to offer incense too because you feel they're representing you. I'm really touched to hear that. Yeah, that really touches me. In other words, if I'm playing a role of your representative and I'm not serving you, then that makes me really question what I'm doing.

[70:52]

If I'm not and I'm not serving you well. I'm so grateful for your questioning. Another way that this has been coming up for me is in that she's so saying, I feel like I've lost something about being female. I'm not suggesting to be speaking for her, but how that has been turning in me has been reflecting on Why do I feel like I've lost something? Anyway, I really appreciate her raising that. Are you saying that you have a kind of related sense of that you feel like you've lost something? Actually, for me, it registers more like I think I never had the something that gets raised from me when I hear that she says that, I feel like, yeah, and I never had that thing that you lost.

[71:55]

Anyway, I'm very interested. Yeah, me too. What this business is. And I feel like I have the thing which she says she lost. Yeah. Don't you think it's time you share it? Huh? Don't you think it's time you share it? I'm pretty much sharing my seat with her. What more do you want? We share Gamacio. And also I share this thing with her. When I pass her the Gamacio, I also send her this thing which she lost. Well, I hope you continue to ask her. Ask her what? What else you can get to her. Okay? I hear your hope. And by the way, I don't use the word hope too much, except when I'm referring to yours, because the English word hope means wish plus expectation.

[73:00]

So, I wish that I will grant your wish. And But I am not into your expectations. I'm not saying you have any. I respectfully withdraw my expectations. Great. I hope without expectation, says Jewel Field. I wish my hope to be purified of expectation. We're all here to help one another. I agree.

[74:06]

Thanks for your help. Thanks for your help. So I will continue to consider this, but I feel now that rather than just do this, I want to tell you beforehand that I think I'll stop doing morning service as doshi because I feel that I'm not able to represent the Sangha in that ceremony. But there's noon service. But that's how I feel, is that I'm not a, what do you call it, a rightful representative of the Sangha anymore in that regard.

[75:06]

Is that okay? No. So you think I, what do you suggest? Just keep doing it. Keep doing it, even though I'm below, a sub-par representative? I'm not representing you well? Don't get hooked on that. Not completely. Okay. Okay. Okay. So today this has been the business under the patch robe. Thanks for doing business here.

[76:11]

We appreciate your business.

[76:21]

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