Again asking the question, what is the essential business under the patch robe of Buddha and bodhisattvas? We're somewhat familiar with the self-receiving and employing samadhi. This is one picture of the essential working of the Buddha.

[01:01]

And in that text, after considerable description of the wondrous, miraculous, beneficial action of enlightenment describing the work of the Buddha, it says all this that we've just been talking about does not appear within perception. It is an unconstructedness and stillness. This activity is, it is unconstructed, but it is actually an unconstructed state. It's a state of unconstructedness and stillness. And this unconstructedness has this Buddha business that it is. And then in this session we've been reciting another text called the Akka Puncture Needle of Zazen, which also describes this essential function, this functioning essence.

[02:32]

It describes the functioning of something that's unfabricated, and this unfabricated function exists in stillness, lives in stillness. Enlightenment is living in stillness and silence. Living in stillness and silence is enlightenment. The Chinese character which Dogen Zenji uses is a character which means stillness and silence. Today I'd like to look at the scripture, the scripture of understanding the deep mystery

[03:49]

or the scripture of unraveling the deep mystery of Buddha's teaching of the great vehicle for bodhisattvas. I'd like to look at the final chapter and mention that the The penultimate chapter describes the whole scripture up to that point, but particularly the penultimate chapter of the scripture describes the bodhisattva training in terms of the six perfections that go through ten stages So the second to the last chapter again describes the bodhisattva training and bodhisattva practice that's going on in stillness and silence.

[05:03]

This final chapter is talking about what's going on in the stillness beyond training. when there's no more training, when the course is complete. The Buddhists have completed the training and are no longer in training. Also in the path of the disciples, the arhats, they also, on that path, on the path of the arhat, They also reach, in the last stage of their practice, a way of living that's beyond training. Their training is complete. So here we have the training of a bodhisattva is complete. In other words, we have a Buddha.

[06:11]

So this chapter is called The Questions of Manjushri, but also at the end of the chapter, Manjushri asked the Buddha, how should this teaching you just gave be designated? And the Buddha said it should be designated as the definitive instruction on the establishment of the activities of the Buddhas. The essential activity, the essential function, the essential business of the Buddhas The chapter of the sutra starts out, then the Bodhisattva Manjushri asked the Bhagavan, Bhagavan, when you speak of the Dharmakaya of the Tathagatas, Bhagavan, what are the characteristics of the Dharmakaya of the Tathagatas?

[07:48]

we say quite frequently, don't we? Something about the Dharmakaya? Dharmakaya Vairocana Buddha? Do we say pure Dharmakaya? Pure Dharmakaya. What are the characteristics of the pure Dharmakaya? Dharma can be translated many ways, but one of the ways is reality or truth. And kaya, body. What are the characteristics of the reality body of the Buddha? The Bhagavan replied, Manjushri, the characteristics of the dharmakaya of the Tathagatas The characteristics of the Dharmakaya of the Tathagatas are the well-established transformation of the basis through renunciation.

[09:09]

That's the first characteristic. Second characteristic is the complete cultivation of the ten stages and the six perfections. Transformation of the basis means, the basis is the body-mind complex. It's the basis consciousness that lives in a body. Through training as a bodhisattva, this consciousness can get completely transformed. from being the basis of delusion to being wisdom itself. So the bodhisattva training transforms this consciousness according to this scripture. And even if this consciousness was transformed still,

[10:18]

for the Dharma body of the Buddha, also all the practices which transform it are completed. The great ancestor of Sangha, the great co-founder of what's called the Yogacara school, states that there's three types of transformation of the basis. Transformation of basis in Sanskrit is ashraya parivritti. And there's three types of ashraya parivritti.

[11:22]

One kind is the transformation of mind, citta ashraya parivritti. The second kind is the transformation of the basis of the path, marga ashraya parivritti. And the third kind is transformation of the basis of errant tendencies, Also, there is a comment that this thorough establishment the well-established transformation, it's well-established in the sense of this well-established transformation is exalted wisdom of reality and suchness.

[12:34]

And it is unerring and changeless. Then the Buddha goes on and says, furthermore, know that the Dharmakaya has an inconceivable characteristic for two reasons. First, because it is free from elaboration and free from manifest activity. And second, because sentient beings very strongly adhere to elaboration and manifest activity. So the Dharmakaya is free of elaboration means it's free of elaborations like arising and ceasing.

[13:48]

So we have this essential functioning of the Buddha of enlightenment and this enlightenment is free of elaborations like arising and ceasing. It's free of coming and going, which you often hear when we do a memorial ceremony, right? We say, in the Dharma body, there's no coming or going, no increase or decrease, no birth and death. Birth and death is an elaboration on reality, which is uncomfortable. The world of misery is called birth and death, which are an elaboration on the reality body. Well, not on the reality body, an elaboration on reality.

[14:52]

The Buddha realizes a body-mind that is free of such elaborations. It's also free of such elaborations of that it exists or doesn't exist, or both exists and doesn't exist, or neither exists nor does exist. It's free of elaborations. And it's free of manifest activity. So in describing the wonders and the miracles of... of all the beings working together to help each other in the self-receiving and employing samadhi text, those activities are not manifest. Manifest activities are activities that come and go, that arise and cease, that are mixed with perception. But the reality of perception

[15:54]

doesn't come and go, isn't born and doesn't die. The Dharma body is totally non-separate from the realms of birth and death and is simultaneously free of all elaboration and manifest activity. So that's one reason why this Dharma body is characterized as inconceivable. The other reason it's inconceivable is that we have trouble understanding something that doesn't come or go, that doesn't arise or cease, that doesn't have manifest activity. If we were sort of... If the only way we could conceive of was without elaboration, then it wouldn't be inconceivable to us. But we strongly adhere to these elaborations. They're how we There are a lot of the way we relate to our experience.

[17:00]

And then Manjushri asked Bhagavan, Is the transformation of the basis of the Shravakas, the disciples, and the Pratyekabuddhas, those enlightened by conditions, are they also suitably referred to as a Dharmakaya? So we have other kinds of sages, which I just mentioned, other kinds of beings who have trained a long time and are beyond training. These are enlightened beings. They're enlightened. They are liberated. They understand the selflessness of the person. And some of them are disciples of Buddha. For example, in the first turning of the wheel, Dharma wheel of the Tathagata, he's talking to these five disciples.

[18:18]

And one of them wakes up at the end of the text. Those five all became enlightened. They all faced north and bowed to the Buddha and became Buddha's disciples. They all reached a stage beyond training. So Manjushri is saying, their basis got transformed too. Is there a transformation of the basis? Can that be referred to as the Dharmakaya also? And the Buddha says, Manjushri, they are liberation bodies, Manjushri. In terms of liberation bodies, tathagatas, shravakas, the disciples, and pratyekabuddhas are similar and equal.

[19:29]

In terms of dharmakaya, the tathagatas are superior. Since the dharmakaya is superior, the Tathagatas also are superior in terms of immeasurably good qualities. It is not easy to provide examples of the Dharmakaya. Nothing is remotely related to it. So these disciples, in terms of liberation, their liberation is like the liberation of the Buddha. And one of the epithets of the Buddha besides Bhagavan, there's Bhagavan, Tathagata, another epithet is Arhat. The Buddha is an Arhat also. So the liberation of the Arhats is the same and equal to the liberation of Buddhas.

[20:40]

Buddhas are free and Arhats are free. But the Dharmakaya, the Buddha, is not remotely like, otherwise, the transformation of the basis of these disciples. Because the Buddha has these immeasurably good qualities which they do not possess. Then Manjushri asks, Bhagavan, how should one know the characteristics of the Tathagata's genesis? How should you know the birth of a Tathagata? Manjushri answers the Buddha, the characteristics of the Nirmanakaya are like the arising of worldly things.

[21:42]

you should see the characteristic of the nirmanakaya as characteristics that are empowered by all the types of adornments displaying the qualities of a tathagata which arise. The dhammakaya, however, has no genesis. So what's the transformation body? That's another body of the Buddha. Nirmana means transformation, or magical, or illusion, or phantom. So the Buddha body can be transformed

[22:48]

into something that is born, that arises, that comes and goes. But the Dhammakaya doesn't come and go. And then Manjushri says, how should one view the skillful method that displays the transformation body, the Nirmanakaya? And the Buddha says, Manjushri, view the skillful method that displays the transformation body, the Nirmanakaya, as everywhere displaying stages. So part of the difficulty that some of us Zen students have with stages is that part of our inheritance is teachings about the dharmakaya which doesn't have stages, doesn't have arisings and ceasings, but the nirmanakaya does.

[24:23]

And so now what the Buddha is saying is that when the Dharmakaya appears, it appears displaying stages. So part of the Buddha activity is this pure Dharmakaya, which doesn't come or go and has no manifest activity. Another part of the Buddha activity is to appear in display. And any adornments of the Buddha that would be helpful, the dhammakaya, the nirmanakaya can use. And the stage, the stages that are demonstrated in the text here are basically based on the model or the pattern of the historical Buddha. So we're talking in a about the Buddha, and we're saying that when the Buddha is transformed, it's transformed into the display of stages.

[25:36]

That's the way it appears, that's the way it's given to sentient beings in this world. So the example of our historical Buddha, the story of our Buddha, is first, the first stage, entering the womb of a household of one renowned as a sovereign in all the Buddha fields of the thousand-fold cosmos or of one renowned as being worthy of gifts. Okay? Coming into the womb of such a household, taking birth, growing up enjoying worldly pleasures, leaving home, fully demonstrating the practice of austerities all at once, renouncing the austerities, and displaying the stages of complete perfect enlightenment.

[26:40]

So the transformation body displays these stages. Then Manjushri says, through the Tathagata's empowerment body, Tathagata's mature... Excuse me, the Buddha's going on this. No, this is Manjushri. Bhagavan, through the Tathagata's empowerment body, Tathagata's mature trainees, immature constituents, by expressing their teachings... and they teach mature beings in a liberative way by these objects of observation. So the Tathagata's empowerment body matures trainees who are immature by expressing their teachings and they teach the more mature being in a liberative way

[27:46]

by getting them to observe these teachings in a liberative way. And then Manjushri says, how many expressions of teachings are there? And the Buddha says, Manjushri, the teachings of the Tathagata are threefold. Sutra, Vinaya, and Abhidharma. So what are the sutras? The sutras are my teachings which gather together the categories of Dharma, classifying them into four, nine, or twenty-nine subjects. These are the sutras. And then the Vinaya consists of my teachings of the Pratimoksha, Pratimoksha means that which is conducive to liberation.

[28:48]

It includes the precepts of regulations and ceremonies for the disciples and the bodhisattvas and other things that are associated with this Pratimoksha discipline. And then Manjushri asks, how many aspects are there to the Bodhisattva's Pratimoksha? And the Buddha says, there are seven aspects, which you might not be too surprised to hear about. For example, there's teachings concerning properly performing ceremonies. There's teachings of things such as the basis of defeat. In other words, there's teachings about what you will be asked to leave the Sangha.

[29:53]

If certain deeds, if you do, you'll be asked to leave the Sangha. That's defeat. Teachings of things such as the basis for infractions. Teachings, those are infractions of the discipline of ethics where there can be some reconciliation process and still stay in the group. Teachings of the own being of infractions and teachings of the own being of non-infractions. Teachings concerning the emergence from infractions and teachings concerning the abandonment of vows. So that could be like a table of contents for a book on the precepts.

[30:54]

And then the Buddha says, Manjushri, the matrikas, matrika is the word they use here for Abhidharma, it means actually mother, the mothers, are that which I explained, differentiated, and taught in terms of 11 types of characteristics. So you probably can't stand to hear those, so I'll just skip those for now. And so that's a start of the last chapter of the sutra, the scripture, unraveling the deep intimacy of the Buddha's teaching to bodhisattvas. There's some details here which I'd like to go into with you later, but I think that's enough for today.

[32:10]

Thank you for your patience to listen to this description of the activity of the fully enlightened one. If there's anything he'd like to offer, you're welcome to come and do so. Pardon?

[33:40]

Pardon? Are you asking permission? You have permission. Pardon? This is for you, another teacher. This is for your mother. This is for the loser and all your daughters. Could you hear her?

[35:02]

The first bow, she said, was for me. The second bow was for my mother. The third bow was for Rusa and my daughters. The first Chosan we had with the priest... The first Cho song we had with the priests. Yes. Reverend Thong brought the issue of those achara things. And I felt something deep, but I was not sure. Can you hear her? Maybe. Maybe. And microphone is going to be given to you. When Reverend Thorne brought up the issue of acharya at the Chosin, I felt something, something I felt deep, but I didn't know what was it.

[36:28]

And I'm not supposed to say anything, just making a beat. And yesterday, she also came and said those issues. Again, I felt something, but I still was not sure what I felt. and I was observing the interaction with you and her. If someday I have a chance to perform morning service, I would like to lower my head to the Acharyas, known and unknown, even though they may not be the legitimate lineage.

[37:33]

legitimate lineage may not happen within my lifetime. People may not figure out who is the exact our lineage. And I don't want to wait that. Those women left home, took the vow for Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. And that itself is not easy. And thinking about the time of the era and the countries they come from, little as I know, must be really hard. And I want to pay respect for this. and listening to your discussion with Jogden, I see your point, too.

[38:49]

And today I was observing your performance, and I was perfectly fine with what you did. I was more pay attention, the name, more pay attention what she do, and it was perfectly fine. But if someday I would be able to do that art, I would like to roll up my head and this is what I want, so I know I may not get it. I want you to support fully what I do, and if you can't, I'd like to discuss again and again and again each performance. How do you feel today?

[39:51]

How was it? And one more thing. Last night I was sitting, I get scared easily, the big noise and darkness and... It was dark, and I was thinking about this issue, so I invited all the acharyas to give me support, and I felt something. I support you to perform the morning service the way you think is most authentic, most genuine to yourself.

[41:00]

If I have some problem with that, I'll tell you. If you, you know, run around the room throwing flowers, maybe I have some comment. But it doesn't mean you can't do that. It just means I have some comment. We'll talk about that. If you prostrate during the acharyas, I probably won't have a problem with that. Unless you, I don't know what, did 150 prostrations. I might say, that's too fast, you're going too fast. Why don't you just do 20 prostrations or something, I might say. And you might say, no, I want to do 150. So we keep talking until we feel comfortable. But if you did it in the normal pace, I probably would feel fine.

[42:05]

So I understand that the next generation will do things differently in some ways from the previous generation. This is part of the life. And that women will perhaps do things differently than men. Even though their teacher is a man, being a woman, they make some changes. But also a male disciple of a man also makes changes. So it's very much part of the life is that next generation maybe is different. And how do we work with that? It's not always completely comfortable when the disciple does something different. if it's always comfortable, probably the disciple isn't really being true to herself. So I will, I vow to support what you try to do and I appreciate that you will, again, keep in conversation about it.

[43:18]

And one other thing I wanted to say was I did think of, you know, just experimenting with doing prostration during the acharyas, but I don't feel somehow that I should just do it once or twice. I should think about, for me, am I going to do this for the rest of my life, not just tomorrow? And I'm not sure I want to commit to do it for the rest of my life. I think maybe it could be disrespectful if I do it once and then don't do it anymore, or do it six times and don't do it. That would be perhaps insulting or disrespectful. So I'm thinking about, do I want to do this? Is this going to be part of the rest of my practice? And so I'm thinking about this. Some people may already feel like, yeah, I'm happy to do this for the rest of my life. I commit to that. Okay. But this kind of thing is, you know, it's like a major commitment, I feel, not something just to try, to see how it feels once, except maybe if you're alone, but to do it in public as a doshi, I think you should think about it really carefully.

[44:52]

And then if you really want to, I will support you. But I hope you think about whether you want to do this as an ongoing practice before you try it. Just a second. Are you leaving or coming? I hope to be coming. Okay. Because we have a special bell for you this today. Okay. May I stand here and use your microphone? Actually, this belongs to Tassajara. Yeah, Tassajara.

[45:53]

Thank you. Well, yesterday... Is this right? It's okay? Yesterday and today, I've been listening and wanting desperately to jump up and say, no, or stop it. And I tried to be more judicious and wait for a better time. But the first thing is I'm really hurt that your talks are aimed at people who have been ordained and who are wearing the okesa. That's my interpretation of it. And if I sit there and I have a rakasu, I don't know, really. You know, am I kind of auditing the course? I don't feel like I've fully enrolled. That's a patch robe. But you didn't make that very clear, I don't think. Well, is it clear now?

[46:53]

If you say it is. I didn't say it was clear. I asked you, is it clear that I said that is a patch robe. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. But what about people who don't have rock suits? What about them? We can talk about that. But anyway, you've got the patch robe. And what is the business under there, by the way? Your question is sort of putting me off track of what it is. Oh, okay, sorry. That's all right. Yes, go ahead. Is it clear now that that's a patch robe? It's clear to me. It's a five-panel patch robe. I realize there has been an association. It isn't something that I haven't heard before, but you were very specific about talking to people who are being ordained. And wearing the okesa and even mentioned something about maybe starting a, you weren't soliciting priests, you know, starting a sewing class maybe for it.

[47:55]

But the sewing class is to make both five-panel and seven-panel robes. Thank you. Not all bodhisattvas are priests. That's what I had heard you say previously. Yeah. And actually Shakyamuni Buddha wasn't a priest. He was a Buddha. Go ahead. I was really shocked when you were talking about the acharyas. the more it just to me doesn't make, for me, it doesn't make a lot of sense. If we're talking about acharyas known and unknown, and in the lineage that you are a part of, we don't know if those acharyas were there or not. You know, if this history of, pardon my cliche, of male oppression, and I can't, my story is that it, to me, would have influenced

[49:07]

Buddhism as well. So are we convinced that the people, the male ancestors we chant are really truly teachers and ancestors? And how can we really be convinced that the female ancestors and teachers are who they are? I just think that it's really causing for me inside a rift. It's causing a rift to feel that some people believe that some other people really existed? That's causing a rift? Is that what you mean? Say that again, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to understand what's causing the rift. I thought you were saying it's causing a rift that some people would believe that certain people really existed.

[50:19]

No, I guess it goes into a deeper emotion that's maybe not easily explained logically, that It seems exclusive, and I was so impressed always with Buddhism and Zen that it was not exclusive. There was, you know, that just clinging to male ancestors only that you would be giving prostrations to. Well, but you probably also heard that we're not supposed to cling to male ancestors, right? Probably. The male ancestors taught us not to cling to the male ancestors. And some of the female ancestors also taught to not cling to the male or female ancestors. That's part of the teaching, right? But it seems to me that you are taking sides.

[51:22]

If you're only doing prostrations to the male ancestors, I don't know. Maybe I'm too early on in my Buddhist understanding. Well, it's always a challenge to be devoted to something and not cling to it. It is. Yeah. So I'm devoted to a lineage. I'm devoted to a tradition. And I study myself to see if I'm clinging to it. And if I find I'm clinging, I confess and repent that. Because I think this is a tradition where we're not supposed to become possessive of it. The tradition says, if you're devoted to this tradition, do not be possessive of it. So if you feel that I'm being possessive of a tradition, you could say, you know,

[52:27]

Would you like some feedback?" And I might say, yes. You say, well, I feel you're possessive of a tradition. And I would listen to that. And then I'd look at myself to see, do I feel I'm being possessive of the tradition? And if I find that I am, I try to see how I feel about that. And I don't feel good. And I keep working on that until I stop being possessive someday of what I'm devoted to. And if you're devoted to something and you're possessive of it, that would make you somewhat exclusive of perhaps things you... If you're devoted to one thing and you're possessive, it might make it more difficult for you to be devoted to something else. But again, this tradition is a tradition not to limit your devotion. One other, I'm sort of hearing what you say, not necessarily grasping it, because I'm really busy thinking about what I'm thinking.

[53:35]

So if I'm not a doshi, and prostrations come up as a member of the Sangha, is there any relevance to the prostrations I'm doing, or do I not do them? And I thought yesterday, I thought perhaps you're... idea of not coming to morning service if we were going to be chanting the acharyas? I could come to morning service, but not be the doshi. That's right. If I wasn't representing a sangha, perhaps, I thought perhaps I shouldn't be in that position. If everybody decided to agree with you, and I didn't agree with you, then could I not come to morning service myself? Because I didn't agree to not acknowledge the acharyas.

[54:38]

You could certainly... We could certainly discuss what you mean. So you just... You wouldn't come to morning service if I was the doshi, you mean? If that meant... When you were the doshi, if that meant you being the doshi only... because we weren't going to be doing prostrations to the acharyas. I didn't quite follow that. Say it again. Okay. Is what's good for the goose good for the gander? If you can say, no, you're not going to be doshi ... I didn't just say I'm not going to be doshi. I said maybe. And then people said, no, no, keep doing it and work with it. I thought that's what they said. And I did it again this morning. OK, I think I'll think about this some more. OK.

[55:41]

Do you feel included? Yeah. Do you feel included in the Buddha way? Think about it. Did the bell ring for the kitchen? So we talked about ringing a bell for the kitchen so that we could just maybe be quiet when they leave. Excuse me if I stand, I'm still having some knee problems.

[58:13]

I felt that I needed to express something which, in this conversation, meant followers of the Buddha way. I resonate deeply with everything that's been said, and I think there's much more that even can be said. But for me what has come up is a feeling of deep gratitude at the many women you have ordained over the years and the many women who have been ordained as tradition by other teachers. I come from a religious background. where for 2,000 years, women have not been ordained and have been refused ordination when requested, and to this day are still refused ordination. So the past is difficult, and I think we will all be working with it for a long time.

[59:25]

But I think very soon, in temples all over, lineages will be chanted with women's names. And it is because of teachers like yourself and other teachers that this will happen. And I felt I wanted to bring this forward because I think it's important to take that into this whole view as well. So thank you very much. the story about, you know, what's the business under the patch robe, I rose, I raised that story in a practice period at Green Gulch. And almost everybody in the practice period was not a priest.

[60:28]

And some had received the five-panel patch robe. And I'd been traveling around the world talking about it, too. And nobody ever had any problem with that, except here. I think it's because here people feel, you've got to be a priest, and you've got to have a robe. But the other people didn't say, well, I have to have a patched robe, and if I don't, I'm excluded. All over the world, I've been talking, not all over the world, but all the other places, they just thought, yeah, what is the business under the patched robe? What are those... What are those Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who have ordination, what's their practice? So it doesn't mean if you don't have a patch robe, you can't do what the people who have patch robes do. But here, people feel like if you don't have a patch robe, or even if you have a five-panel one and not a seven-panel one, you're excluded.

[61:33]

And I think that Because the community is so strong here and so alive, the issue of exclusion is stronger here than other places. When I'm giving a retreat in Sweden or something, like maybe I'm the only priest, so people don't feel excluded if they're not a priest. But that community is not, that group of people is not really a strong community. They're just coming for the retreat and then they disperse. When the community gets very formed, people start being very concerned about inclusion and exclusion. It's normal. And any signs that might stimulate that sense of who is in and who is out are focused on It's normal.

[62:39]

It's normal when there's a living community, a vital community. Yes. So I've heard great teacher Howard Zinn talk about how history is often told as the story of great individuals rather than great communities or great movements. And I think about this with the story of the transmission of the light, how it often sounds like it's a story of great individuals passing something to other individuals.

[63:52]

And same as when we chant the diet shows, it sounds like the story of this teaching is from individual to individual. And it seems like a very thin story to me that doesn't include the actual inconceivable transmission of the light. So we talked about bowing to a great teacher. I have had some resistance to that. I feel like I'm bowing to an individual, just an individual. It feels like it's delusion. And that's part of the reason why I talked about what I talked about today, to tell you what the Buddha was. The Buddha is not an individual. The Buddha doesn't have a coming and going.

[64:54]

The Buddha is free of elaborations like individual and group. That's what the Buddha is. That's the great teacher. The great teacher is not an individual. However, the great teacher who is not an individual but something that results from long training which is the realization of not an individual the transformation of an individual into the realization of something that's not individual, then that can manifest in individual ways because people relate to individuals. But the Buddha is not an individual. It's not something out there. It's not something in here. It's actually a relationship. So, but the relationship's kind of ungraspable, so sometimes the relationship gets transformed into an individual so people can relate to it, so people can have like an individual teacher.

[66:01]

But you're right that it's the individual thing, it's an illusion. And the transmission is not the transmission of individual to individual, It's not that. It's the transmission of the actual relationship among all beings. And individuals do rituals to realize this non-individual thing. And it seems that we've, in this tradition, chosen the story of these diet shows to represent the transmission for us as a symbol for the transmission? I guess you could say it's a symbol of transmission or it's an image that we relate to, to relate to the transmission.

[67:07]

And then wishing to make sure that women are included, it's interesting that another lineage was used rather than, what do you call it, so there's hierarchy and anarchy. Hierarchy means actually a structure of priests, and anarchy means no priests. I mean, I shouldn't say no priests, but it's a different type of organization, which is more feminine, in a way, to me. But the lineage that was offered was kind of like a hierarchy, a female hierarchy. If we speak of an anarchical image, in some sense maybe people have trouble relating to that. But I'd be interested in discussing relating to an anarchical image.

[68:15]

Which isn't the individuals, but it's the whole thing, the way everything's working together. Do you think these acharyas have influenced what we're doing here? Yeah. Do I think that those people influence what we're doing here, or the recitation of the names has influenced what we're doing here? Those people. Those people. Well, as historical images, they're similar to the historical images of the men. By directing your attention to certain history and being moved by it and encouraged by it, it seems to have an effect on us. So relating to the stories of these women and being encouraged by them affects our practice. I guess I'm thinking that because of the daishas, it seems like a construct of how the light was transmitted.

[69:26]

We could also make a new construct that could include the influence of the acharyas, even though it wasn't so formal. That'd be another way to do it, since they're both not the complete story of this transmission. Yeah, right. And people are doing that. People are telling stories about women. For example, people are telling a story that the first people who brought Buddhism to Japan were women. were female aristocrats in the imperial court of Japan. They were the ones, the females, actually were the ones who brought Buddhism first to Japan. So someone tells that story. So various things are being said to try to make a richer story of what reality is.

[70:29]

And also I think people are trying to not deny diversity, right? So this is a gesture towards trying to be conscious of history, of inequality, of injustice. It's a gesture towards that. I know for myself I'd prefer a story that would include women and communities and not just the heads of the formal communities. That would be my preference. Well, it's a preference, but also it's a project. A project? Yeah, something for you to try to work on, to try to imagine that and dream it and share your dream and share your imagination and see if you can do that in such a way that it encourages you and the people you're in conversation with.

[71:53]

You support me in that? Yes. the world is transformed by our imagination. So this topic, did we call them women ancestors?

[73:41]

And I noticed some people don't say women ancestors. They say, she said, but she didn't use the word ancestor. Acharyas? Acharyas, which means great teachers. No, it just means teacher. Mahacharya would be great teacher. When I first came to Tassajara, I think my Thangaraya practice spirit, Blanche, was leading the practice spirit. And she bowed when we chanted the acharyas. And then Linda Ruth came. I think she did something slightly different. And then you came the next practice spirit and you didn't. I remember it coming up then as well. At that time, there were two women priests here. I think they were the only two women priests that I think I can think of right now at Tassar at that time. And both of them had practiced for many years in Italy.

[74:45]

Shoktai, Marta Delorza, and Licea Tentore were here. And I got into a discussion with them about it, and both of them were very adamant that these women are not in our lineage. It was very interesting for both of them to be so clear in themselves that there's a distinction between lineage even if it's made up or not necessarily made up but constructed. And a group of women who are not related to one another except in terms of there being women, but not related in terms of lineage, in terms of sharing teachers, not even constructed in that way, like a collection of women. So this has been very interesting to me. I haven't come down on any particular place in it. And I was having a conversation with an abbot of a temple in Korea

[75:53]

who was visiting Tassajara, and this came up because I think Grace Shearson was here giving a class. A male or female abbot? A male abbot. A male Korean abbot. Yes. And the topic came up about women in lineages. And he said, well, there are women in our lineage. In fact, Prajnatara is a woman in our lineage, which I thought was very interesting. Yeah, actually, Bodhidharma is a woman too, right? Pretty cute, too. So I felt like there's this fluidity, or there's... For me, it felt like... I mean, I understand the feeling of women in terms of the history of oppression. And then there's the teaching of not female, not male, not female.

[76:56]

Right. And so I feel like it's very easy to get caught up in it one way or the other. Yeah, it's easy to get caught up. That discussion with this male Korean abbot kind of opened it up for me as well. And then watching different people and how they, different doshis during service, how they are with the Acharyas, there's a lot of variance in what people are doing. Some people do prostration after prostration. I've noticed that Linda Ruth has started doing three prostrations at the beginning of each kind of grouping. So there's the Indian the Chinese and the Japanese, and she just does three bows. I've noticed her do that. She does that consistently. And I myself have been experimenting with what I do.

[77:57]

I've noticed that Reverend Myo goes down and he doesn't come up. He just stays down. And I thought that's very interesting as well. When you said that you felt like you might be interested in experimenting, but that you would want to do it not in public, because you felt like if you did change... Not so much change, but if I started to do it and then stopped. Right, but that would have an impact. Well, everything I do has an impact, but that might be seen as disrespectful. Even what I'm doing now may be seen as disrespectful, but... I think, for me right now, I'm saying, if I'm not really careful about that, I think it's kind of disrespectful. So I'm going to be really careful about this. And I'm careful about what I'm already doing. And if I make any changes, I want to be really careful. I can respect that.

[79:00]

I don't want to lightly experiment with this tender issue. I heard a story that at one point, I think at Green Gulch, you took a rock and you put it on top of the Kiyosaku. Did that happen? I don't remember that. I heard that you did that at some point. that you placed a rock on top of the Kisaku as a symbol of that we're not going to use it. I did, when I was abbot, I did suggest not using the Kisaku. And since that time, I think the only people that have used it are abbots occasionally. And I felt that not using it, people are more awake than when we used to use it. I'd like to encourage you in your experimentation.

[80:08]

Thank you. And in terms of this idea that you would not be able to change, I feel like maybe you can do something, whatever you're doing, whatever it is, that somehow the conditions, as Yuki brought up, the conditions of there being a lineage where a woman is chanted in our culture in our Soto Zen lineage, that that can be the time when we can say, we don't need to do this other thing. I didn't follow that. So I feel like the... this fact that in our lineage, in Soto Zen, the Soto Zen lineage, there are no women, we don't consider any of these ancestors women in this lineage. Oh, I see. And when that changes and we have a woman in our lineage, in the lineage... Well, some people do now, right? Like Darlene Kahn is near death, but she has a female disciple.

[81:19]

So in that woman's lineage, there's a woman. And Blanche also has successors. So in that successor's lineage, there's a woman. And I know some male priests in Japan who have female ancestors. I mean, in terms of what they chant. Yeah, so that male priest chants the name of one or more females. So this particular guy, his master is his mother, and his mother is the disciple of his father. So he says his father's name, his biological father's name, his biological mother's name. And now he's an abbot, so he'll have a successor, and his successor will have a grandmother in her lineage. And there's probably some cases where there's several... where there's a female who has several generations of female teachers before her and a male teacher before that.

[82:32]

Like when I was doing Zuisei at... I met this woman who was doing Suisei and she was in a lineage from Ryokan, the poet. So the poet had a female successor and that female successor had many female successors leading up to this woman. this woman could have a male successor. So the male successor would have lots of female ancestors and then going back into male ancestors. So that's a pattern which actually I met somebody who has a female with maybe ten generations or eight generations of women before her and a man before, and then from there back to Dogen and so on. So it's happening. Yeah, and she was amazing. She was an individual, but she represented something much more than that.

[83:41]

Thank you for your openness to me and thank you for your willingness to tell me when you have problems with what I'm doing or questions about what I'm doing. In the spirit of intimacy I wanted to tell you that I'm feeling a little bit, I'm feeling many things and I'm having images for my feelings and one of the images I have is I feel like I'm a piece of marble. and I'm being carved by the Sangha. And I kind of feel like, well, it's kind of good that I'm kind of marble-like so you can really work out on me. And make something good, yes? something that this conversation raises as well as your reading of that last chapter is who qualifies for liberation?

[85:50]

And I want to believe that it's still possible for ordinary human beings to be liberated. That it transcends gender and that it's also possible for average people, every woman in his or her daily life. And sometimes when I hear some of these stories, it creates a lot of, what's the word that I'm looking for? How should I explain this? I feel hopeful at the possibility of being able to work on liberation as a process with all beings over many, many, many, many eons and at the same time

[86:56]

I feel hopeful of the original teachings that liberation is possible for human beings and that we are all capable of liberation and not just special people that have many hours a day to devote to meditation practice, for instance, but anybody. And I was wondering if you could clarify or comment on that. What comes to mind is at the beginning of the chapter it says that the characteristic of the Dharma body is a well-established transformation of the basis through renunciation. And so the qualifications for this kind of realization are that an ordinary person practices renunciation, and an ordinary person practices the six perfections, and that practice develops over a long period of time.

[88:09]

And right now, the person might be practicing the perfections and not be in a monastery sitting from four till nine. They might not be doing that. But they probably will do it later because to develop these practices thoroughly, in terms of history, takes a long time. But to do the practice right now, at whatever level you're at, that is the Buddha way in this case. There's no other Buddha way than for you to do these practices now. And when the practice period's over, you may not be sitting as much as you're doing now, but you probably have some more work to do after the practice period's over.

[89:24]

You probably need to do a little bit more work on the six perfections. I would think, probably. That's just my guess. And all of us probably will. So this is like, that's the practice. And it's a practice for ordinary people. It's given by the non-ordinary to the ordinary. Bodhisattvas are ordinary people who do these practices. And they evolve, but they're still ordinary people. As a matter of fact, as they become really highly evolved, they're more and more genuinely ordinary. But it takes a long time of practice to be genuinely ordinary. So the qualification of these Buddhas is genuineness, is being authentic.

[90:32]

And these practices help us be authentic. All the different practices you can think of to help us be authentic are included under these six, according to this teaching here. Anything you think of which would promote genuineness and authenticity and intimacy is included under these headings. Even those infinite ways, they fall under these categories nicely. So everybody has to do these practices, as far as I can tell. So what you're saying then is because there are infinite ways of doing these practices that there are no particular forms that supersede any others. Right. All the different forms could be appropriate. Thank you.

[91:35]

You're welcome. I wanted to share that I, since I came here, I was a little surprised by this word monk that people use quite frequently.

[92:52]

And surprisingly a little irritated. You were a little irritated? And I still am. But so it carries the shame because normally people don't talk. The word monk doesn't or is not said so much. But then there it was again. One night, two nights ago, the first time, well, I was firewashed. And it was the first time I had this rice drink. And it said next to the rice drink, first monk, extinguish the burner. Please extinguish the burner." And I thought, are they talking to me? I was not the first person knocking me. So it was not my job. But yeah, so I feel like, OK, they need everybody, right?

[93:58]

When they say monk, they need everybody. And I don't feel like I'm being a monk. So I don't really feel like they're talking to me when they use the word. And it's... How about student? Yeah, that's good. So in the beginning I thought this is also like a male-female thing, part of it is in the probably, but even if it's that first one, extinguish the burner, I would think no. And what I wanted to say is that probably there's no better word to use I think there has been a lot of discussion about this before. But from my point of view, to use the word monk for people who come here for three months, it's... I don't know the English word, but it's...

[95:05]

It's not respectful to use this word, in my sense. You mean it's not respectful to the people who make a lifelong commitment? Yes. And who perhaps have a different and even stronger commitment. like really living celibately the whole life. This is my understanding of the word monk and nun. It's not some kind of part-time job that you have. Although there are some monks and nuns who also give their vows back and go on and have a normal life. But then generally speaking, this word has, for me, it has a different connotation. So, yeah, I wanted to share that. Thank you. Pardon?

[96:38]

May I come up? Please. Are you comfortable? Well, I'm also uncomfortable. Is there anything that you can do to be more comfortable? I could probably take a walk. But I'm kind of stuck here. Should I give that to myself? I don't... I'm... I'm deeply comfortable, but I'm also uncomfortable. I'm in a lot of pain, but I'm comfortable with it because I'm practicing welcoming it. But... That's my comfortable practice, is welcoming the pain. Yeah, I'm having considerable pain right now.

[97:41]

But is there something you'd like to talk about? Actually, I wanted to pay my respects to your great teacher. And I would like you to be comfortable when I do that. Oh, I see. You're following the traditional thing of saying to the teacher, would you please make yourself comfortable, which is usually to sit down. You could lie down or stand up. You know, your wish that I would be comfortable, it gives me great comfort. Thank you. May I pay my respects? You may pay your respects to the great teacher, whoever that is, or whatever that is. I'm happy to see you do that. Would you stand in for the great teacher? I will stand in for the great teacher.

[98:43]

I will sit in for the great teacher. I'd like to share the dream that I had last night. Would you be open to hearing that? I will listen to your dream. And I wish I had some water for you. Thank you.

[99:44]

I don't need any water. I'm just a little nervous. I was moved yesterday. And I didn't talk to anyone about it afterwards, which is just a sashimi admonition, but also I found to be quite useful. And I dreamt that My mother and I were walking in the city, and a young man came up to us, and I think he asked us for money. And I think in the dream that we didn't give him any money. Can you hear her? Yeah. Good, they can hear you. And he hit her very hard in the face. Hit your mother? Yeah.

[100:46]

And she didn't do anything. in response and I became incensed and I screamed at him and I told him not to hit her and I woke up before the wake up bell like I usually do and I knew right away that the dream was about the talk and my response to the talk And about my anger. And my desire to protect my symbolic mother and my real mother, and also my desire to have young men and men in the world be respectful.

[102:02]

And I feel gratitude, deep gratitude that this conversation happens in the great silence of Sashin for the opportunity to have this dream and also to watch myself and my anger. I appreciate the image of being marble carved by the Sangha. And I think I'm also marble. And I'd like the Sangha also to carve me.

[102:57]

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