For our God is despairing, but he sits on the just land, despairing, but he's not hungry. as we say over and over, just wholeheartedly sit and thus drop away body and mind. Some bodhisattvas talk about the practice that way, just wholeheartedly sit

[01:00]

and thus enter the realm of dropping off body and mind. Enter the realm of dropped off body and mind. So, it's a bi-wholehearted sitting. We enter the realm. And I've been suggesting to you that Bodhisattva's conduct all their practices by means of great vows. They course along the Buddha way by means of great vows. The wholeheartedness of the practice is realized in the context of these great vows.

[02:05]

And these great vows are realized in the context of wholeheartedness. There's infinite ways to express bodhisattva vows. We just read one way written by a Zen teacher in Japan and many times we've read Dogen Zenji's great bodhisattva vow, Ehe Koso Hotsugamon. And then we have bodhisattva vows in the form of the 16 great bodhisattva precepts. And we'll be having a ceremony in a little bit more than a week here where people will receive sixteen great bodhisattva precepts, and they will vow to practice these precepts.

[03:08]

So these precepts then become bodhisattva vows for these people. And the precepts are mostly about the relationship between beings. And anyway, I would say generally speaking bodhisattva vows are about our relationship with beings. For example, beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Afflictions are inexhaustible. Afflictions are beings. I vow to actually, it says, cut through them. I vow to move, to find the way to move through affliction. I vow to find the way to move through affliction. The translation we say says come to an end, but literally the Chinese says kind of the character for cut, cut through.

[04:10]

But not cut through like damage them, but find the passage, find the path, the passageway, find the emptiness of the afflictions and go through there And this going through the afflictions, passing through them freely, is done by means of the vow, the promise, the deep commitment to pass through them. And passing through them realizes that vow. So there is a promise in many of these vows, but it's actually a promise to enter into relationship. It's a promise to practice together with beings so that we promise to practice together with beings in many wholesome ways. We promise and then we promise, sometimes we promise to practice that way every moment.

[05:19]

And we promise to have all of our karma be lined up with these promises or to join these promises to all our karma. So that whatever we think, whatever posture we make, whatever vocalization occurs, we do all these karmas. All these karmas are in the context of these vows. Then all these karmas become wholehearted. If I try to practice wholeheartedly by myself, I'm not practicing being wholehearted in the context of the bodhisattva vow. Practicing in the context of my relationship with all beings, the practice becomes wholehearted, and thus the practice becomes dropping all body and mind, and thus the practice becomes

[06:29]

the practice of the Buddha way, because the practice of the Buddha way is wholehearted. It's not the practice of one person. It's the practice which is the same practice of one person and all persons. That's wholehearted practice. One person may say, I'm practicing wholeheartedly, which is fine. And the way that that person who says she's practicing wholeheartedly is the same practice as all the other people, some of whom are saying I'm not practicing wholeheartedly, some of whom might be saying that. But it's not me saying I'm wholehearted that's wholeheartedness. It's the way I'm involved in the same practice with all beings that's wholeheartedness. So I find that the bodhisattva vows are apropos to the point of being wholehearted, to the point of the Buddha way.

[07:41]

The Buddha way is practiced by Buddhas and bodhisattvas by means of bodhisattva vows. And I have found that bringing up this, what seems to me to be a very wonderful possibility of being wholehearted, a wonderful possibility of body and mind dropping away, entering the Buddha way, this wonderful wholehearted practice of the Buddha way, as it's being proposed, as it's being unleashed upon the group. I've noticed the group resists, starts resisting.

[08:42]

Strange and surprising and wonderful forms of resistance start to occur to this wonderful thing called wholeheartedness. Generally speaking, the world tends towards exaggerating the state of affairs. The world tends towards extremes like things exist or don't exist. And by being involved in this exaggerated approach, we tend to resist the way things are. We resist the middle way. The middle way is the wholehearted way. We resist it. So that's our condition, is that we're wholehearted, but we have a tendency to resist it because of various habits that we have of exaggerating the way things are, which make us tense up and resist the way things are.

[10:04]

We have these misconceptions about the way things are, and as a result of those misconceptions, we resist the way things are. We resist wholeheartedness. We resist the Buddha way. Someone said to me that, I don't know what he said, but I think he was talking something like, I would like to engage with or work on my fear. I experience fear, and particularly I experience a fear of rejection. And, you know, like if I would, if I would, I don't know what, think if I would like to spend some time with somebody, like have tea with somebody or take a walk with somebody, I hesitate to suggest that or offer that because I'm afraid that they might reject my offer.

[11:29]

And So in the conversation I thought, well, here's a good opportunity to cultivate fearlessness. If you've got fear, for example, fear of rejection, there's an opportunity to cultivate fearlessness by taking care of the fear of rejection. And I say the word cultivate, and I'm thinking of this word bhavana, which is translated as cultivate or practice, but also meditate. But literally it means to become. So to bhavana, or to practice or cultivate fearlessness, is to practice a way to become fearlessness.

[12:38]

Not to become fearless, a little bit different. It's not I become fearless, but I become fearlessness. I enter the state of fearlessness by cultivating, by cultivating, by meditating on fear in a way such that I become the state of fearlessness. And so one possibility is if you, yeah, If you have something to offer to someone, like a question, some information, a request, an invitation, if you'd like to invite someone, if you'd like to request something of someone, and you notice some fear of what would happen if you made the request or made the invitation,

[13:42]

this is a good opportunity to practice fearlessness, to cultivate it by going and inviting the person. And I would also further suggest if you wish to practice fearlessness, if you wish to cultivate fearlessness and become fearlessness, then if you've got fear, then be upright with the fear. Be present with it. Don't lean into the fear. Don't lean away from the fear, right? Be tender with the fear. Be flexible with the fear. Be honest about the fear. Be peaceful with the fear. And if you don't have any fear, I mean, if you don't notice any fear, then give gifts to people.

[14:48]

If you've already got the fear, then give gifts to people. So, for example, if you wish to give someone an invitation or if you wish to make an invitation to someone, then make then make that invitation as a gift. Not making the invitation to get them to accept the invitation. Make the invitation as a gift. Period. Not to get some result. Not to get them to go on a walk with you or have tea with you. As a gift. Now if you're already afraid to offer this gift or make this invitation, then that making the invitation as a gift will help you be upright with the fear that has already come or will come. If you're not afraid and you make this offer as a gift, you may or may not become afraid as you get into it.

[15:58]

But if you do, you're in the right mode of relating to the fear in such a way that it can, that that way of relating can open unto fearlessness. And oftentimes if you, yeah, if you If you start giving, usually that will, if you're not already afraid, usually the giving will surface any unconscious fear that you have. It will help the unconscious fear come out, and then again it will help you deal with the fear in the proper way. Proper means proper, appropriate to becoming fearless. So this is a practice. which I again would suggest if you wish to be involved in such a practice that you do that together with bodhisattva vows. So again, I would suggest if you want your practice to be wholehearted, the practice of fearlessness to be wholehearted, then also do that practice or have that practice arise in the context of doing this together with everybody.

[17:13]

So not only is it giving, But you're doing it together with the person, and you're doing it together with all Buddhas, all Bodhisattvas, all beings. And you're doing it together with the wish to help all beings, to serve all beings, to honor Buddhas and to accommodate to suffering beings, and so on. that will make you have lots of energy and joy in doing difficult practices like working with fear. it'll make it much more fun and have much more energy, and actually it becomes, when you actually let the vow work together, it becomes kind of like just playing, like playing, playing, creative, and so on.

[18:16]

Someone also recently asked me, said, sometimes the way I've been relating to teachers is to ask them good questions in hopes that I would get good answers. And I said, well, that's not so bad actually, especially the part about asking good questions. I think it's really good to ask good questions. But best to ask good questions Yeah, and for example, ask a good question, like I'd like to ask a question where I'm not trying to get anything. I'd like to ask a question as a gift to the teacher. I'd like to ask the question to make the teacher happy with such a good question. Now, if I was actually going to ask a Buddha question, I wouldn't have any problem about, you know, getting a good answer, because I'll for sure get a good answer. But I'm still not asking the Buddha to get one of those for sure good answers. I'm asking the Buddha a question to please the Buddha, to make the Buddha's day a success.

[19:28]

And also I ask a question to help all beings. I want to ask a question that will help all beings face their fears in concert with all the helpers and with uprightness and wholeheartedness. And I have to ask a question which will liberate beings from all the deadening tendencies in their life and so on. I would like to ask a wonderful question. So the person said, this is one way I like, I've been relating to teachers. And I said, that's good. Just take away the part about trying to get something. And it's really a good way to relate to teachers. It's also okay to ask non-teachers questions, good questions too. Maybe even better because you might not be trying to get good answers from these people because they don't know how to get good answers. But then I said, but sometimes another way to relate to a teacher is just watch a teacher.

[20:40]

Just go and meet a teacher and watch a teacher. So, you know, when Suzuki Roshi was sick, when he was sick and when he found out that he had cancer for sure, he kind of gradually stopped going to the Zen Doe. For a while he went to the Zen group. We carried him there. And then he stopped going there and he stopped giving Dharma talks in the Buddha hall. And he stopped doing formal doksan. But he would be around Zen Center so much and we would carry him up and down the stairs. We had this nice little way with our... crossing our hands like this. We'd have him sit there and we'd carry him up and down the stairs because Zen Center didn't have wheelchair accessibility on the second floor. It still doesn't, I guess. And... So then after a while, and he was having shiatsu and moxibustion treatments.

[21:44]

So I asked him, I requested to attend his shiatsu sessions. I said, could I just come and sit and watch you receive your massage? And I said, I won't ask any questions, even good ones. And he said, okay. Okay. So I would, when he was having his treatments, I would just be in the room with him and I would just sit there and watch him receive the shiatsu and then the moxibustion. And, you know, I didn't feel like, I wish he was giving a Dharma talk or I wish he were having doksan or I wish he was sitting zazen instead of lying on his stomach getting massaged. I didn't think that... I just watched my teacher, my sick teacher, getting the massage. And then one day, the shiatsu man got sick, and Suzuki Roshi said, you've been watching, you can do it.

[22:56]

So I did it. I did the massage. And he gave me some instructions while I was doing it. And he said, you can do the moxibustion. So I took these little cones, you know, and I could see where to put them because there was marks where they had been put before. So I'd light these cones and put them on those spots, and I'd watch them burn down. And I'd watch his face as they burned down. And when he winced, I took him off. And he said, pretty good. So I got to do that for a while while the usual person was sick. And I was also jisha to the new abbot of Zen Center.

[23:59]

And he said, well, during Seishin, I don't know if you'll be able to continue to go and watch Suzukuroshi get his treatments because you're the Jisha. And I said, OK. But the next day, Suzukuroshi died. There were no more treatments. This is Halloween, you know. So since it's Halloween, I have a treat for you. Halloween means holy evening, right? Is that what it means, Carolyn? Yeah. hallo, hallo, holy eve, evening, Halloween, holy evening.

[25:08]

It's the holy evening before All Saints Day. It's a holy evening, so, and we give treats on holy evening. Can I open this window? The evening breeze caressed the trees tenderly. The trembling trees embraced the breeze tenderly. Then you and I Came wandering by And lost in a sigh Were we The shore was kissed

[26:26]

with sea and mist tenderly. I can't forget how two hearts met totally. Your arms opened wide and closed me inside. You took my lips, you took my life so tenderly. Any feedback? Max, any further feedback? Close me inside. Close me inside. You took my lips.

[27:56]

If you wish to. I was thinking maybe Max would like them. Is that true, Max? Is that true? What? Any other feedback? Do you understand what I've been saying? Is that real clear, what I've been saying? No, it's not clear? What's unclear? Please come up and tell me what's unclear. So sit right here. I mean, if you want to. You don't have to. But you did say no, so I wondered what it was that wasn't clear. You can sit right here, or you can sit right here.

[29:00]

Oh, good. Okay. It's simple. Something simple that's not clear? I'm just sleepy. I'm sorry. That's why it's not clear. It's not that you didn't say it clearly. So maybe I'm under false pretense. I know you're talking about vows. I don't think I can say it back. You can't say it back? I don't think I can tell you what I took in. Okay. Well, do you have a vow? Is there a vow in you? Yes, I think I've got one. Okay, you want to tell us? You want to tell us your vow?

[30:02]

Yeah, are you... I'm helping you get up right. Is it sort of ventriloquism? That would be great! Where's those levers? What's your vowel, Jill? So you say it, okay? No, no. No, that's right. I'll say it. I'll mouth it as though I was saying it. Okay. I'm not sure I can phrase it. Okay. I vow to wholeheartedly have this practice period. Have is not the right word, but I vow to be in the practice period wholeheartedly.

[31:04]

And in order to be in the practice wholeheartedly, Are you going to do that by means of bodhisattva vows? Are you going to be supported and buoyed up by bodhisattva vows to fulfill your vow of being wholehearted? I bet I will be. But I think what I will do, what would help me the most is to be very diligent and zazen. And... And would it help you be diligent in Zazen if you were sitting in Zazen to help all beings? Would that help you be diligent? Yes. That would probably be much more helpful. Yeah. And would it help you be diligent in Zazen if your Zazen was a gift to all Buddhas? Yes. Yeah. And would it help you be hard in Zazen if...

[32:07]

if your zazen was paying homage and paying respects to Buddhas also? Yes. Okay. So, yeah, so that's wondering if you understood that. You do understand that. I guess I do. Okay, great. Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. Okay, should I go? No, you can stay. Oh, all right, because somebody else might need to sit here. Yeah, they can sit on your lap. Oh! Any other, so is that clear? Yes. I need to make something. So how do I practice if I don't have a vow yet? How do you practice if you don't have a vow? Well, first of all, you... Help me how you do practice now. Do you have a vow? Not yet? I follow the schedule. Okay, do you have a vow to follow the schedule? Is there a promise and a commitment to follow the schedule? Not formally, no.

[33:10]

Okay? So before you have formally committed to having a vow, I guess I would ask you to look and see if there's any vow that you can find. Just look for a vow. Is there anything you would like to do and like to commit to. And just keep watching for that until you feel like, oh yeah, I do want to commit to something. And when you find that, then you could tell me and we could talk about formally committing, formally, deeply promising to do this thing you'd like to do. Where would it come from in that case? Was it not there before and then it will be there in the future? I think it's already there. I think you have the bodhisattva vows, I think, are living in you someplace, but you just don't know it yet.

[34:16]

Just like I think you're generous, and I think you're wholehearted, but you may not see that yet. And again, yes, you might see that. So then I would say, well, if you want to see it, then practicing generosity will help you find it. So, for example, practicing this schedule will help you discover the vow to practice the schedule. So I can start with... Or it also may help you find the vow to not practice the schedule. You may... Oh, I found a vow that I don't want to do the schedule. You could find that one, too. There could be that vow. And when you first find it, though, you probably won't appear as a vow. It'll probably appear as a desire or a wish.

[35:19]

And then you may wish to commit to not follow the schedule. That's possible. Would the other vow, the alternative vow to follow the schedule, would that also appear as a wish at first? Probably. Is there a difference between a vow and a wish? Yeah. A vow is a commitment and a promise to do something that you usually want to do. Usually we don't promise to do things that we don't kind of want to do. Not deeply, anyway. So you want to do it first and then you vow to do it. Yeah. I often talk to people who want to know how to practice, have a zazen practice when they don't live in a community like this. And I say, well, first of all, how much meditation do you want to do? And then they find that out in their heart. And I say, well, then how much do you want to commit to? Actually, second, I say, first, how much do you want to do? Then how much is practical? And then the overlap between the desire and the practicality. And then do you wish to commit to that?

[36:21]

It's the third step. And then, okay, ready to commit, and then they commit. And I usually recommend committing for also a limited period of time, for starters. What do you mean? Well, sometimes if people, when they first commit to something, if they commit to it open-endedly, it's hard for them to keep track of whether they're following the commitment. But if it's for a limited period of time, it's easier for them to keep aware of their commitment when it's for a month or two. But if it's open-ended, it's hard for them to keep looking forever. there's usually some kind of rhythm in people's attention. So like if you notice, we don't have an endless practice period, we have a two-month practice period, a one-month practice period, a three-month practice period, because it's to train people's attention on their commitments. And then change it so you can pay attention to another commitment.

[37:28]

It's taking into account our rhythmical life. And again, another thing is that if you do find something you'd like to commit to, you know, from the point of view of I'd like to commit to do something like that, then you set up a stage where we can then start looking at, well, how about these bodhisattva vows? And you might say, well, I'm not interested in those yet. But we can notice, as we start to practice various vows, we can notice how difficult they are to do them by ourself. And that to practice them together with vows in relationship to all beings, you can start to see the difference between that two different ways of practicing. One is practicing vows to do things myself, and the other is vows to do things together. You can notice then the difference.

[38:29]

But you have to start with something that you're interested in, visually, and that you feel ready to make a commitment to. So when people usually... Usually when people... in the past anyway, when people commit to practice the Bodhisattva precepts, they often think when they first start doing it that they're going to practice the Bodhisattva precepts by themselves, and then they have a real hard time. It's later when they start thinking, oh, well, I don't have to practice these by myself. As a matter of fact, I don't practice them by myself. Everybody's supporting me to practice them, and then the quality of the practice changes. But usually you have to start with something, some karma. which you commit to, like the karma of these precepts, which you commit to. But something like not following the schedule isn't a good vow, is it? Yeah, it might be a good vow. Could a vow be anything? A vow could be anything, yeah. But here we're usually talking about, generally speaking, we're talking about wholesome vows.

[39:33]

And if you felt like not following the schedule was a wholesome vow, we could do that. What does that have to do with the Bodhisattva precepts though? Practicing vows is a way to get in touch with your mind, how it works. It's a way to get in touch with your karma, how it works. And these precepts are also about your karma, how to unite your karma with the bodhisattva vows. The precepts are bodhisattva vows, but then they also are an opportunity to connect these vows with all the other bodhisattva vows. And also we don't usually call sitting zazen a bodhisattva precept, but it is a bodhisattva precept if when you sit in zendo you're sitting as bodhisattva vow, then it's a bodhisattva precept.

[40:44]

Sitting to serve all beings joins the sitting with the bodhisattva vow, then it becomes a bodhisattva precept. So strictly speaking, people who think, okay, I promise myself to refrain from killing, I vow to practice not stealing, if they think that they make the vow by themselves and they're going to practice not killing by themselves, In that sense, even though it's called a bodhisattva precept, they don't have a bodhisattva precept attitude about the bodhisattva precept because they think they're doing it by themselves. Bodhisattvas have bodhisattva vows and bodhisattva's vows are not about practicing by yourself. They're always about practicing together. We say before all beings... immersing body and mind deeply in the Buddha way. Before all beings is okay, but another translation of that would be together with all beings, immersing body and mind.

[41:51]

It isn't like beings are over there and I'm going to immerse my body and mind in the merciful ocean of Buddha's way. It's together with all beings. Together. Together. But if you're not ready to wish to do everything together, then it is good to be honest about that I'm not ready to think. I don't even want to think about doing this together with everybody. I do not want to think about that I'm talking to these people now together with them and all beings. Honesty about that would be good. And gentleness about that would be good. And being balanced with that and flexible with that would be good. And if you are that way with your not wanting to practice together with everybody, you will see the Dharma.

[42:53]

And then you will want to practice together with everybody because you'll see that you are practicing together with everybody. But now, anyway, you've entered a situation where there is a schedule, and then you can look to see, what is my attitude towards this schedule? What's my wish with this schedule? And do I wish to formally commit to this schedule? And also, do I think I'm doing this by myself? And if I do, I heard it would be good for me to be honest about that. and say, yes, I found out that I do want to follow the schedule, I do want to commit to it, and I think I'm doing that all by myself. And I know that somebody says that's not true, but honestly speaking, that's where I'm at. How is that settling with you now? I don't know. Okay. Is that honest? Mm-hmm.

[43:54]

It's about the only honest thing I can say at this point. Yeah, often when you say something honest, it's the only thing you can say that's honest. Well, that sounds good. Thanks for coming up to meet me. And did you meet the other people, too? I wasn't even thinking about them. So can I ask you about you? What? You thought I was thinking about you? No. Would you like to open to all of them too? Not yet. Not yet? Honesty again? Honesty again? Again. Yeah, good. So just as a parting ventriloquistic comment,

[44:56]

I invite you to look to see, look at the question, would I like to open to practicing with all beings? And would I like to open to all of them practicing with me? Just look at that question for a while, please. Say it again? Just ask the question, would I like to open to practicing with all beings? Would I, Rachel? Rachel, would I like... Hey, Rachel, would you like to open to practicing with all beings? And would you like to open to all beings practicing with you? Would you like to open to that? Ask that question. And then I'd like to hear any response come to that question, if you keep asking it. Pardon?

[46:12]

This is a little bit deep here. It's deep, yeah. Okay. What I would like to come up with is a moral conflict, which I dropped into today at the Zen Center. which I didn't expect that it would happen here, but it happened. And it has to do with the first Bodhisattva vow, not killing. And I think I have to explain what it has to do. It has to do with the members of the Air Force, the chaplains who are supposed to come here and to meet here in, I don't know, a couple of days. And the conflict for me is, I have to explain this a little bit, maybe it starts many years ago when I was 17.

[47:13]

In my country, everybody has to go to the army, and I refused to go to the army, and it took me five years and two long court cases to fight for this right and to get the right, not to be obliged to go to the army. And this was a very strong commitment for me by the time, which I still carry with me, a comprehensive commitment regarding not killing. Not only not to go to the army, but also not to support military activities, which I carried on in the freedom movement and so on. So what I see here now is, okay, these people are coming, and I have no problem that these people are coming, or these people come to a place like that here. It's mainly three problems I see here. One problem is that they pay for it, and the center here is accepting money from the Air Force, which I personally find...

[48:23]

or I ask myself, is this a good ethical standard? And I look in investment funds, so they very often exclude. To invest in such operations or NGOs like the one I'm working for, exclude accepting money from them. Second issue, it's also not only my issue, I think it's an issue for Zen centers. We do not know what they are doing here. We had a longer discussion this morning in our crew. The only thing what we know is that they were looking for a nice place. That's what I heard. And I thought, OK, if they were coming here to open up to our practice or to whatever peaceful things, great. But actually, I feel not really good when I don't know what they're doing here. What kind of work are they doing? Are they doing something which is maybe not peaceful? And the third dilemma for me, this is my personal dilemma, is what should I do with my vow, not with support?

[49:35]

Military operations, since it's maybe a minor issue compared to the other ones, but I'm in the guest program, and I feel a bit strange that I'm going there and helping them have a good time here and not knowing what they're really doing. So that's point I brought it up. And I can say that Raven had a good suggestion. She said, Okay, she understands my point. And she invited me to bring it up today at the center staff meeting. And I said, okay, I will come there and I will wait if senior staff will want to hear me. And I was waiting there and after a quarter of an hour or so I was told the decision was not to hear me there and I should speak with Chanto again, which I did already this morning. I spoke with Mira about it and Mira explained me clearly her position.

[50:42]

And I can see there can be different positions on that, which I totally accept. But it doesn't help me in this conflict. At the moment, I don't see the solution coming up. I'm a little bit lost in the situation. So this is why I'm bringing it up. And I must admit, it costs me a lot of freedom and peace, which I was looking for here to be in this conflict now. So I'm coming up here, and I hope we find a solution. That's the thing. Aside from... I can understand that this is difficult for you.

[51:49]

in these three different ways. But I thought I heard you say that just the idea of them coming here, you kind of are okay with that. Is that what you said? For me it's okay if a person comes here who may have killed people. If this person would like to open up to a maybe not even Buddhism, but to the spirit of peace which is here. People come here because it's a nice place. And I don't know, we don't know, what kind of work are they doing here? They are officers of the Air Force. Okay, they are chaplains, but I heard that also in a combat situation, they are also taking or have to take the weapon. They are fighting. These are people who spray holy waters on combat ships and fighters.

[52:52]

So for me, these are not really people whom I fully trust. Well, so again, I thought I heard you say that even if someone had had, you said, had killed people, if they wanted to come here and open to the spirit of peace, that wouldn't be difficult for you, so difficult for you. in a general means, it wouldn't be so difficult. I still had to think about my third own very comprehensive law, but this would be something for me only. But I would say yes. They come with that spirit. But I was thinking, you know, Part of what I have trouble with is that I mostly talk to people who are pretty clearly committed to try to practice not killing. That's most of the people I talk to are like that. And I feel it's a lot of work for me to... I shouldn't say a lot of work.

[53:53]

But anyway, I don't very often get a chance to talk to people who are committed to killing. And so, but I would like to talk to those, but I'd like to find an environment where I can talk to people who are committed to killing or were committed to something which entails killing. I would like to talk to these people, but I haven't had much chance. So if I, now these are chaplains coming, but if actually Air Force pilots were coming here on a retreat. When I first heard it, I thought Air Force pilots were coming here. And I thought, oh, I thought, oh, maybe I can have a chance to talk to them. Or you could give a chance to talk to them because you're in the guest program. Well, I'm from overseas, and I think it's more probably the Americans who should talk to their own Air Force.

[54:53]

Okay, well, if I heard the German Air Force was coming, you know, I would think, wow, the German Air Force wants to come to Greenwich, and maybe we could talk to them. Maybe we could have a meeting with them and ask them, you know, to tell us about, you know. Or like if a large group of Republicans wanted to have a conversation here, a conversation, you know, that we could actually like, that they would be saying, you know, we're coming here, and I think this is part of your question, do they actually want to talk to us while they're here and find out, do they want to open to us? And I thought, yeah, maybe they would. And particularly the people in the guest program might have a special chance to say, Would you mind telling me your motivation in coming to Green Gulch? And they might say, oh, because it's a pretty place. Or they might say, well, we like vegetarian food. Or they might say, yeah. Or they might say, well, we actually want to be near meditators. Or they might say a lot of stuff, but I think you'd be in a good position to ask them. And if they didn't want to tell us, I think that there would also be then the opportunity to find a way to encourage them to open to us.

[56:02]

Why didn't we ask them when they called up? I don't know. I think maybe we missed a great opportunity, but it's not too late. If I, and I'm not criticizing Ray Wren for not saying to people, every person that comes here, what is your motivation in coming here? She's going to become ordained as a priest pretty soon, and maybe as she matures in her practice, if she stays in the guest program for 30 years... When people call to come to the guest program, she might say to them, what is your motivation in coming to Green Gulch? What brings you here? That's a traditional thing for a Zen priest to ask people when they come to the temple. What is your point to come here? To deeply inquire whether they're here for practice or not. But maybe she doesn't feel confident. Maybe she thinks people will beat her up for interfering with income or something. But... I think that this is definitely our tradition is to be interested in what is the reason people come here.

[57:12]

And I don't know if people come and work with Suki in the garden. I don't know if she asks them, what is your motivation in coming to help me with the garden? I don't know if she asks them. Or people volunteer in the kitchen. I don't know if Jury says, what is your motivation to come in the kitchen? Maybe he thinks he knows that they're coming in the spirit of peace. Maybe Suki thinks she knows But if the guest program doesn't know what people are coming here for, there's a great opportunity to be interested. What draws you to Green Gulch? Now, a lot of people give the guest questionnaire, right? What brought you to Green Gulch? Did you have a good time and stuff like that? But how about asking them yourself? I'm talking about if there were pilots, it would even be a greater opportunity. But chaplains probably would say, well, thanks for that question. I hadn't thought of that. I'm a chaplain. I should be asking myself that. Why am I going to Green Gulch? What is going to Green Gulch have to do with serving the welfare of beings?

[58:17]

Am I just a lark to get away from the base? But I kind of feel like the part that I really think would be wonderful is if, which is extremely challenging, I don't know if I would be able to do it if I was in the guest program, to find a way to relate to these people and show your heart to them and give them the gift of your concern for nonviolence and ask them, are they committed to nonviolence? Find a way to say that. But maybe that's really difficult. I mean, probably is really difficult. Maybe I would be able to do that, but the first step I did, I wanted to bring this message up here to the people who make decisions on or decide what kind of work shall be done within this place. I wouldn't say what kind of people should come. It sounds a bit cruel, but what would disturb me if people would do work which is not supporting peace, not supporting life, but rather supporting a business

[59:24]

Right, but that's pretty easy to answer. Our practice here is bodhisattva vow. We welcome all people to come here, everyone, criminals, gangsters, Buddhists, men. We welcome everybody. to come to this place without exception. Everybody's welcome here. We're trying to help everybody. That's what this place is for. That's the charter of this place. Everybody. Rich people who are really rich who made money from abusing people, we welcome them here. We want to talk to them. We want to awaken them. That's our job here. Now, but it is not our policy. We do not have a policy to receive money from organizations that we're opposed to their operation. We don't have a policy like that. So to ask the question, should we refuse the money if it's from, you know, like if drug dealers came, I would welcome drug dealers coming here and having a conference.

[60:26]

But I would welcome them. I would welcome them. They couldn't bring guns. They couldn't bring drugs. If we say, are you going to bring your drugs? They say, yeah. I say, well, you can't come then. Okay, we'll leave our drugs out. Are you going to bring weapons? No, we can't bring those. Are you going to come without drugs and without weapons and without a tremendous amount of money? Yeah. Okay, then you can come. And when they get here, the reason, we would want to talk to them. This is a perfect environment to talk to drug dealers. What are you doing here? Tell me about it. What good is it doing the world? You know? But we don't have that chance for you. But if we had it, I would, God, this would be like, to me, a dream come true. If drug dealers would have a conference here. And we would know about it beforehand so we could say, wow, let's not miss this chance. But then if you said or somebody said, are we going to accept money from these people?

[61:30]

I think I'd say, well, you know, I think in this case we should not. I think we should not accept money from drug dealers. I might say that. However, Zen Center has been built on at least two donations, two big donations from a drug dealer. Yeah. I think it was mostly LSD. But back in the Zen Center, you know, was it small? By the way, it is Halloween. And we will be distributing drugs later. Just for tonight. But anyway, this guy came by Zen Center. I was there when he did it. He came in his lobby at Page Street Zen Center, came in the lobby, and he put $5,000. This is back in the 60s. No, no, this is back in 1970. He put $5,000 in the donation box and left.

[62:36]

I didn't know that he was a drug dealer at the time, but I found out later he was. And he did it one more time, too. It came in another similar donation box. in cash to the donation box, and it was still probably leftover drug money. And this person also went on to become a Zen priest, and he used his drug money to build Zen Center, his own Zen Center. But now if he would come back, and I would know he's coming back to make another donation, and if I knew beforehand and I know him now, I might say, you know, where's this money coming from? Is this leftover from that other stuff? I said, maybe don't give it to us. I might say that. And then the fundraising department might do something to me. But I still might say that to him. I don't know. So I think it's a legitimate question of whether we should accept money from the chaplains who are working for the government.

[63:38]

But on the other hand, you might say... that the chaplains, maybe if you knew them, you might find out they're trying to help these guys in the Air Force be nonviolent. Maybe that's what some of them are in the chaplaincy for, is to work on the warriors, to make the warriors practice not killing as much as they can. Who knows if you talk to them. Suzuki Roshi was a chaplain. But do you really believe that these chaplains are able to make the Air Force in what you're saying? I don't believe it, but my life is totally committed to it. I don't believe that I can influence a killer to stop being a killer. I don't believe I can. But I am committed to that very project. And I've heard stories which motivated me to this commitment.

[64:39]

I've heard stories of the Buddha turning a murderer into a non-murderer. I've heard that story. I've heard stories of Zen masters turning killers into non-killers. It's rare. It's amazing. It doesn't happen every day. to say the least, but in millions of examples of people relating to killers, killers means people who have murdered and who are intending to commit further murders, there are some occasions where bodhisattvas have been able to. If none of those chaplains can do this, I would say, well, yeah, I probably couldn't do it either. But this is what I would like to do. I would like to meet people who are in the armed services in an environment where we could talk about this, and or their chaplains, and or their mothers or fathers. I would like to do that. But I think it's another question about whether we should accept money from them, but that would depend partly on who they were, too, whether we thought they were doing good work and where the money came from.

[65:50]

It's our money. It's our money, yeah. So if our tax is going to the government and coming back to us, through the chaplains, the chaplains are giving us some of that money that they stole from us. Maybe that's the problem, is you're not getting any money back. And I'm totally convinced. Of what? What are you convinced of? I'm totally not convinced. Okay, okay, all right. I don't want to convince you. I don't want to convince you. I'm just saying that you're welcome to express this opinion and it's not that different from anybody else's. And the Zen Center policy you're questioning about whether Again, as I understand, you're sort of questioning whether they can come or not, but you're also questioning whether we should receive funds for it. And I respect that question. And I think it is a problem for us.

[66:57]

Okay, I think these are points not for me to solve, but maybe it will be an issue when it comes next time. Maybe similar cases will come up again. And I don't want to push too much about it. I just want to bring it up. The third issue is a personal one. And there I ask you for your support that... As you support vegetarians, you are not to eat meat. You can support me in the days when these people are here, not to work. for indirect contact and to support their stay. This is only my personal thing. You're making a request to not work with them, not work in the guest bargain during that time? Is that what you're saying? Not doing support work.

[67:59]

If there will be a talk or whatever and they would like to talk to a crazy guy like me, okay. You mean you would be willing to talk to them? Well, I wouldn't see me here in the first hand to do that, but if they would, yes. Okay. But let me clarify what you're asking. Are you asking to be supported to not contribute to their activities until further notice, until you feel good about it or until you knew more about it? Is that what you're asking for? This is it. This is it. As a member of the guest program and... Taking into account my old role, not to support activities of these institutions, I ask you for the support. Not to ask me to do that for these one or two days. So I would be willing to talk to the other staff members about that.

[69:00]

I would be okay with that. Thank you. Hello. So they can see you. One thing I wanted to demonstrate was that I kind of had the same opinion about this. Yes. And sitting over there was like this question. What really struck me was that, you know, at one hand, nobody was asking what are they up for, and on the other hand, you know, their schedule might be just so completely isolated from what's happening here. It's just being them in the dining room and then, I don't know, where they have their conference. Usually that's... I shouldn't say usually, but often they don't relate so much with...

[70:02]

the rest of Green Gulch. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. These being chaplains, maybe it would be different. Maybe they'll go to Zaza. I don't know what they'll do. They're not here overnight. Oh, they're not here overnight. So they might be mostly here, walking around the grounds and in the dining room. And their schedule, they might have a full schedule, so they might not have time to talk to us. But still, I feel that in any case, whoever comes here, I think if we have an opportunity to ask them What draws them to Green Gulch? I think that's a very reasonable question, and I think they could understand that we would, we want to know sort of how are we seen in the world such that people want to come here. I think we'd like to know that. But a lot of organizations are like that. They want to know what drew you here, you know, what is it about what we're doing here that makes you want to do things here? So I think that's a normal thing to ask. But they may not want to change their schedule, but it would be kind of far out at this point for us to, but not unreasonable, for us to say, would you be willing to change your schedule and spend all your time with us?

[71:09]

Because we're really interested in you. But they probably think, oh, that's just really strange. And I don't know if we'd really like to spend all day with them, would we? Actually, in that case, I wouldn't have a problem at all. When Maya was bringing that up this morning, I was kind of naturally suggesting that this would be the case, that it kind of would relate to this place and the practice here. And then just when I was talking to Manfred, it was like, what? They're just having a conference here without any... Connection of that was like, wow. Well, you know, tonight we have, you know, Fu is very much involved in what we have, this Marin Interfaith Council, right? If we, you know, now that this has happened, we could put some effort into this and say, and she could contact them and say, you know, your visit to us made us wonder if you'd like to come back sometime and meet with us, have a meeting just with us, that we'd like to have some interfaith contact between us and you

[72:14]

because you're in the military, we'd like to have some interfaith contact with the military. And since you're there, this would be very rich for us. Would you like to do that? And after they're here, or while they're here, we could make that invitation. So now they may have their agenda, which, you know, is set. But, you know, we might say hi to them or something and say, you know, your visit to us has made us wonder if you'd like to come back and meet with us on a religious basis. to see if we can find some kind of way for you to help us understand what you're doing and have us understand better what you're doing. Did I say that twice the same way? For us to understand what you're doing and for you to see the questions we have about how you're, as a religious person, working with the government and working with the military. Now a lot of people might even feel like you shouldn't even be chaplain for the state senate. Some of us have been invited to go and talk at the breakfast for the government at state capital or something.

[73:24]

Some would say you shouldn't even say a prayer at their breakfast before they have their sessions because the government is such a problematic thing. But some people feel, no, I think it's good for us to go there and have contacts. So I think this, one fruit of this might be that we, I would like to explore this possibility. And I think the director of Green Gulch is very much likely to think this is a good idea and maybe we can work on that. And then maybe they And maybe they'll come here again to see me with us, but maybe they also have other meetings here, but in conjunction with us doing something together. This might be a possible fruit of this. And as I said, I think it would be great if actually the pilots came here. you know, combat pilots came here and spent time here and let us... and then based on that maybe sometime they come to meet with us.

[74:33]

Because usually what happens here is people come and they just receive gifts. You know, they pay their way too, but they come and they receive the food, they receive the environment, and then when they receive these things they start opening to the community. they say, oh, yeah, the way you take care of this place, the food you serve, the way you take care of each other, then maybe they want to hear about what we're doing. And so, yeah, if military people would come here, and I've said this before also, I sometimes go to some of the vendors that take care of Green Gulch. Like there's this place in Mill Valley called Mill Valley Services. What's it called? It's called, what's it called? Mill Valley Services. Mill Valley Services. I went in there to pick up some work for Green Gulch. I went in and the lady gave me the work and she said, I don't know what you're doing there, but please keep it up.

[75:40]

It really feels great when you guys come in here and do business with us. But, you know, that's because, she says that because she's met a lot of people over years, you know, so if these people who have different orientations of the world would come in here and receive our generosity, that will open them up to dialogue. Because it's a little hard for us to go over to the base, right, and say, well, here we are, what are you doing? LAUGHTER but if they come in here and they receive something that they like and they open to it and they say, what are you guys doing? And then we can say, oh, we're doing this, what are you doing? So this thing may turn into, these kinds of things can turn into great, potentially, opening experiences. But they take some time. This will take a lot of time. But not quite as much time as maybe one might think, but I...

[76:45]

I think it's a very important thing that we just hold a sacred space of what we're doing here. And my experience is eventually many, many groups that have come here have then come and sit. What is it? Yeah. Can I add something else since I'm going to contact who has been the contact person of these people? The chaplain who is organizing all this has been here twice. And he already very much likes Green Gulch and brought his family by. His two little girls care a great deal for him. I just hope we can keep open mind and realize we're dealing with people here and not demonize them. And let's keep an open mind to anybody who has problems with them coming here.

[77:47]

So let's not demonize the people who have a problem with them coming here, and let's not demonize them. Let's save all sentient beings, shall we? They are intentionally placed into a reading and place.

[78:09]

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