I wanted to start by writing the Chinese character for the answer to the question, what is the business beneath the patch robe? Chinese character is... This is the Chinese character. In Japanese, it's usually pronounced mitsu. Chinese, it's pronounced me. It means It means denseness, minuteness, private, social, intimate, and thorough.

[01:25]

that if you combine it with this, it's a character. This character is pronounced, a Japanese way of saying it is men means cotton or cotton thread or cotton. or intimate, the two together, memmitsu, means thorough, minute, careful, detailed. And there's an expression in this tradition called memmitsu no kafu. Kafu means a house wind or family wind or family style. and no is possessive.

[02:33]

So the family style of minuteness or thoroughness is a character of this tradition. Intimate attention to detail in all forms. So intimate Intimate attention to detail is, in this tradition, is the practice of prajnaparamita. By becoming a form, we realize its emptiness. gave many definitions.

[04:05]

Yes. Is it understood that it's all of those definitions? Well, I think intimacy includes a dense and intimacy I think includes that it's somewhat private. You know, intimacy is not that easy to seek. If you look at someone, you can't like see that they're intimately aware of, you know, finely and densely aware of their experience. And so it is kind of secret. Intimacy is kind of secret. When you watch us practice, you know, it's not that easy to tell whether people are being intimate with their walk sometimes, or how intimate they are with their bell ringing, or how intimate they are with their sitting posture, or how intimate they are with the experience of bowing, and so on.

[05:11]

It's kind of secret. And intimacy, I think, in this kind of intimacy means that it's kind of, you have to work at being in there. It's not like, yeah, we're intimate. That's done with. It's more like we have to carefully attune. Like I was saying yesterday, there's an attunement. So when you make cotton cloth, there's a tremendous attunement between these threads. So I think all those meanings are compatible in this case. There's some... Characters have kind of incompatible or contradictory meanings, but I think all these enhance each other. I think the dense enhance, tell us more about intimacy. And intimacy tells us, I think, something about the density and interrelationship of things. Is there intimacy?

[06:12]

And then, yes. Yes. Can you say something more about the character? Well, the bottom part is this part here. This part here is mountain. The bottom is mountain. The top is a roof of a house. And so there's a Chinese character like this. This is a character for a woman. So having a woman under the roof of the house is peace. In the patriarchal culture, you've got the woman in the house, things are peaceful. This here, inside is a character for mind. mind or heart, this character is in here, and it has a line through it. You can think about what that is, but anyway it's a character with a mind with a line through it.

[07:18]

Some people say a sword through the heart under a roof on top of a mountain. The character for Cotton, this side here, means silk. That side is a radical from the character for silk. So a lot of things, a lot of fabrics have this silk radical in them. But the part I don't know about is the heart with the... And so under the house, the heart under the house, maybe that's kind of intimate. And put it on a mountain. yesterday at the practice committee, a lot of form questions.

[08:21]

And every time they came up, I said, oh, that's what I'm talking about. How to deal with this form question, bring it to the dharma event. So there's quite a few of them. But one of them was about clothes, clothing, and in particular clothing in the formal practice space of the zendo. And I just... I mentioned this before that sometimes... I've ordained people as priests, and when someone's ordained as a priest, it kind of naturally follows that I would have a more intimate and detailed sense of their clothing than I did before they got ordained.

[09:36]

I don't really notice people's I don't have as much of an intimate relationship with people's clothing in society at large. But when they start wearing priest robes, I start getting densely involved with them. I notice, you know, whether things are like this or like this. I notice the relationship between different parts of the clothing and so on and so forth. And sometimes I see things which I'm really kind of surprised by and I wonder about how certain things are happening. And I sometimes, I'm interested and curious. And if the person's asked me to train with them, I have lots of questions about that. And I remember one person in particular said, I asked her questions about how she was wearing her robe.

[10:41]

She said, I can't stand this. I feel like you're my mother. You're doing to me what my mother did. I guess your mother was fussing with her clothes a lot when she was a child. And she couldn't stand what came up with her clothes. around me talking to her about her clothes, which, as you know, eventually touched the body. And I'm actually concerned about every layer down to the skin. But at the same time, in the context of priest training, it's usually not considered untoward for me to ask about the clothing. But in this case, it was too much. And she actually stopped pre-straining because she couldn't wear the robes. Maybe she kept wearing her robes.

[11:45]

I don't know. I don't remember exactly. But anyway, she couldn't take feedback anymore about her clothing from me. And after a year, she came back. and resumed priest training and I was able to talk to her about her clothing. So there was a question, can people wear scarves or shawls or blankets in the zendo? And so again, if I start with priest clothes, I have a very clear sense of what the tradition is for priest clothes. I saw what Suzuki Roshi did up to the time of his death. And I've seen other older priests and young priests relate to priests in detail about how they wear their robes. And I remember one time one of Kadagiri Roshi's priests saw a picture of an old priest who was wearing a scarf

[12:56]

And the student said to Kadagiri Roshi, well, he's wearing this scarf around his neck, can I? And Kadagiri Roshi laughed. He says, well, he's like 80, you know? And so there is a point maybe when occasionally you'll see an old priest be wearing a scarf. It's amazing that actually you don't very often see priests wearing a scarf or turtlenecks. When they're outside the zendo, they might wear a scarf or an overcoat or a hat or gloves. Then though, I can think of almost no examples of where I've seen the teachers doing that. And this style exposes the neck. And the back of the neck, the front of the neck is open. There's something about this outfit that seems to work pretty well.

[14:04]

And so if a person's wearing this outfit and training in this outfit, I usually kind of try to encourage them to work with this form. But the point of this form is to realize the emptiness of it. The point of this form is not primarily that people would continue to use this form. It's primarily that they realize the emptiness of the form and thereby realize relieving all suffering and distress. That's the point. And to realize the emptiness, to realize intimacy with the form, it involves gentleness and it involves patience and it involves not being overbearing.

[15:08]

It involves giving up trying to control. So both the teacher and the student with the form of the clothing particularly the teacher, is not trying to, well maybe the student too, but the teacher is giving up trying to control the student into wearing this outfit. If the teacher doesn't control the student into wearing this outfit in a traditional way, that kind of attitude is not intimate. And then we won't realize the emptiness. If the teacher is overbearing and in the heart not calm and patient, then that will obstruct the realization of the reality of the form. So when people are training with me wearing priest robes, if I see a turtleneck, I ask them, what's going on?

[16:21]

And they say, well, I've got a cold. And then sometimes I say, oh. That might be the end of the discussion. And they might keep wearing the turtleneck. But in some cases I might say, how would that be for you? And they might say, well, I can't do that. I've got to wear the turtleneck. I say, oh. In other words, I'm inquiring, I'm offering something, but I'm not trying to get that turtleneck off him. Next day I might wear a turtleneck myself, although I haven't tried that. I do sometimes wear turtlenecks, but I almost never wear them with this particular outfit in the zendo, if I'm wearing this outfit. I have sometimes also worn other priests' outfits, Chinese outfits in the robe, in Zendo.

[17:26]

Then it's a different system. And they work differently. But I could imagine that I was in some place where we were in Chinese and that we would train with those robes. And those would be the forms we would use. We could also wear, I don't know what, We could wear turtlenecks or we could wear hockey outfits. And we can use that form to train to realize the emptiness of the form. Now, if people wear certain kinds of outfits, I personally am not so experienced with them. So, you know, I wouldn't necessarily, I would have to work sensitive to some other outfits. I have less experience with some other outfits, but I could still work with them.

[18:27]

I just would, I wouldn't necessarily, I wouldn't be into, it would take me a while to get into the details. So, yeah, so for the priests, I would say, ...through this practice period to wear this outfit. And you can also wear long underwear, but when people wear long underwear, I usually ask them to wear long underwear that doesn't ride up around the neck. In other words, make your knee neck on long underwear so that it doesn't stick up. And also, wear long underwear that doesn't stick out at the bottom of your kimono or way out beyond your sleeves. I usually ask that. Also, in Japanese monasteries and in monasteries in the West that are Japanese influenced, sometimes they wear slippers in the zendo.

[19:34]

but they do not usually wear. Now, if we just did a ceremony like we've been doing, and you come to the zendo, and you have white footwear on, then when we sit for meals or for meditation, the tradition is to take off the socks. There's an example of that from Dogen working with his teacher Ru Jing in China. There's a part of his record where he talks about Ru Jing teaching him how to take his socks off when he got up on the seat to meditate. The instruction that there's a discreet and graceful way of taking the socks off. And so in the early days of Tassajara, when we had the zendo down here, it was really much colder in that zendo.

[20:39]

On some occasions, they would have kerosene heaters. But in the winter down there, it was like the sun never gets down there after Thanksgiving until March or something. So that zendo was really cold. to wear socks. And generally speaking, people did not wear socks in there. And we didn't have slippers either. But I'm not saying, well, we didn't do that, so you shouldn't do that. I'm just saying that actually it might be okay to wear socks. And we actually tried slippers here at Tussauds for a while. to wear slippers up there, and to wear slippers into our seats and take our slippers off, that we could possibly do that. And also, one could wear socks and then take your socks off. One could do that. That would be somewhat in accord with tradition.

[21:44]

But what seems to be a strong point is that actually if you have your legs crossed up under your robes, that they'd be barefoot. And I think it has to do with that your feet, when you actually cross them up under... they get warm because they're near the center of your body. And it's good to have them bare when they're warm under the robe. People who are sitting in Seiza, however, it's a different story. So as we get away from classical form, things change. So again, the people who are not necessarily following the clothing, who do not want to necessarily follow the clothing of the priest, then the robe works somewhat differently. I would be sensitive to some variation that might be appropriate.

[22:45]

But this particular group is wearing clothes pretty close to what the priests wear. The main difference is that some people do not have over their shoulder, which some might say, well, that would make you warmer, and it's true, it does. However, even without the okesa, you can be warm in the first two periods, which are usually the coldest. Most people are not wearing a robe, and it's possible to be quite, even in a colder zone than this. So again, I see some people are wearing a robe similar to what Soto Zen priests wear, but they have sweaters that have crew necks or underwear that has crew necks. But somehow I don't feel like suggesting to you that you don't do that. I don't feel like that.

[23:48]

Now what about wearing a scarf? Then let's talk, I guess, what's the word? I think what really matters is that we discuss what you're up to with the scarf. That's the main thing. And we discuss how you're feeling about the value of wearing the scarf. What about wearing a hat? Same thing. When you have these long Soto Zen sleeves and you're sitting Zazen, you can actually put them over your legs, so they can also serve as a shawl. So people might say, well, since the priests can put their sleeves over their legs, could we have something like that put over ours? And I would say, well, I don't know. I guess that would be all right, especially if it was made of priest sleeves, old priest sleeves.

[24:52]

Or you could just tack some old priest sleeves onto the end of your robes. So this outfit comes, in a sense, with a shawl on each arm. And in the summer, the shawl is very lightweight, so it isn't hot. In the winter, you can have wool, big, heavy, long, voluminous cloth made from wool. And then when you sit, you have another layer over the layer of your robe. So if the people who aren't wearing these robes have short sleeves and don't have all that cloth, maybe it would be fair for them to be able to put some cloth over their lap. But again, the main point is that we become intimate with what's going on here.

[26:05]

We become intimate with what our agenda is. We become intimate with our fear of cold. We become intimate with the pain of cold, the reality of cold. And that we're intimate with our own feelings and also that we can share and discuss our situation and how we're coping with the weather with our clothes in the zendo. We don't have a clear guideline for how to dress outside the zendo during practice period. Usually we don't have to tell people to not wear shorts. I guess maybe sometimes people do wear shorts during work period occasionally. So we seem to allow a wide variety of clothing during work time.

[27:10]

So we're mostly talking about, in the formal practice place, how to work with clothes, cloth, which again tie in very nicely with this intimacy. So that's one example. Someone also, I guess, asked about what about wearing kimono. And my understanding of kimono is that kimono is basically like underwear. It's clothes that you wear under your priest robe. This is the priest robe. Kimono and jiban and other underwear are worn under the priest robe. And you can walk around in your underwear. Like, for example, we have ordination ceremonies. Priests come to the ordination ceremony in their underwear, in their kimono. But they don't usually go... And they go into the Buddha hall in their underwear.

[28:15]

And then they put their priest robe over the underwear in the ceremony. So, my experience is people do walk around in their kimono. But usually they don't go in the zander with their kimono, but they might. like when the Jikido is in there or something like that. Suzuki Roshi walked to the baths in his kimono sometimes, but that's not the formal way to go to the baths. The formal way to go to the baths is to wear your zendo clothes and wear them into the bath, take them off and so on. the baths informally. That's okay. And you understand it's informal. You're going in your kimono or work clothes or whatever. But again, the point is that you're being intimate with what you're doing and that you are or you're not to other people participating with you in what you're doing.

[29:24]

So that's one example, and I could just stop there for now and see if you have any points you want to discuss about clothing. Yes. The thing that always comes to mind when we're discussing the practice of paying this minute attention to detail And I know that Shantideva emphasizes very strongly in terms of it being a practice leading to attention to one's mind and thoughts. But the question that comes up in my mind, the subtle, maybe not so subtle difference between attention... leading to intimacy and obsessive attention leading to a kind of rigidity or holding on?

[30:39]

As I said before, the way to work with the forms is to give up trying to control them. That's the way that leads to intimacy with them, is to give up trying to control them. So if you become, what did you say, obsessively? Obsessively, yeah. And rigidly? Yeah. Yeah, so that's, yeah, so that will not lead, that will, that postpones, you know, the next day you may realize. When you're rigid about the forms, you're not relaxed and gentle. Rigidity is not usually gentle. You're not calm. You're not generous. You're not patient when you're rigid with the forms. So if you're not... So if you're rigid with the form, it's being intimate. However, one of the dangers of using these forms to realize intimacy is that people will become rigid.

[31:50]

However, If you don't give them these forms, they'll be rigid with something else, but you won't know what they're rigid about, really. And people being rigid about some things are not open to feedback in those realms. Like, I don't know what... There's some realms of your life where you might be rigid, but you wouldn't let folks necessarily comment on it. But when it comes to the forms of practice, you're a little bit more likely to be open to feedback. Like, you seem to be gripping that oreo bowl very tensely. Your knuckles are white around your oreo. What's going on? So you could say there's a danger of becoming rigid about these forms, but I would say the other way to put it is that becoming rigid is dangerous, and these forms give us the opportunity to become aware of our rigidity.

[33:03]

Once we become aware of it, we can be kind to it and let go of it in detail. In the midst of seriousness of the intent to these forms, you can also humor and a certain amount of humor or lightness is not totally incompatible. In other words, there's a kind of conscious play there. Being playful follows from being relaxed and gentle with them. But also being careful and relaxed with these forms leads to being playful with them. Playfulness is also part of intimacy with them. But you don't try to be playful.

[34:07]

That's not playful. When you relax with something, you naturally are ready to start playing with it. And as you start to play with it, you start to enter into a process where intimacy is realized. Yes? Could you speak a little bit about... Sometimes in the effort to avoid rigidity, we can... fall into some amount of sloppiness or too loose. So how do we know when we sort of struck that proper balance? Well, when I see somebody, perhaps myself, but let's talk about somebody else, when I see somebody who's being rigid, I don't try to avoid them. Matter of fact, I might be committed to come and get closer to them when I see them being rigid, even though it's kind of frightening to see this rigid person. So I think to try to avoid being rigid is another kind of rigidity.

[35:14]

And if you try to avoid rigidity, then you... Like, I'd rather be sloppy than rigid, some people might feel. Well, I might agree with them. But how about... How about being neither sloppy nor rigid? Well, if rigidity is what's happening, then what we do is we bring graciousness to the rigid. Like I was at the practice committee meeting. Somebody was talking about somebody else. Actually, I'll tell you. Somebody said that Brian did not want the job of shushing people during work period. Did you hear about that? that he was supposed to go around Tassajara and shush people. If they were talking during work period, like, shh, shush, shush. He was supposed to do that. Because during work period, we're working basically in silence.

[36:18]

And our communication is just about work. That's the practice period policy. And so I heard that he didn't want to go around shushing people. And I said, I don't want him to go around shushing people either. But also, some people. And I said, I do not want to shush you from shushing people. If I see you shushing somebody, I don't want to go up to you and say, don't shush them. I want to be gentle in welcoming of you shushing people. Like, that was a good shush you did there. One of the best this week. I mean, it worked. You got them under control. That was great. Yeah. So when I see somebody shushing people, when I see somebody trying to control somebody like themselves or others around here, I want to be gracious to them.

[37:32]

and be patient with them and be gentle with them and calm with them and transmit. And this takes attention. You have to be careful with people to do that. You have to be close and careful and respectful and non-violent and that spirit will be transmitted and the rigid person will go from rigidity to relaxation rather than rigidity to sloppiness. So we're trying to balance between memitsu no kafu, careful attention to details, period, be balanced on that without being rigid about it or sloppy. And it's a constant. And when we find our balance, when it's only temporary, just for a moment you're balanced, and then the next moment you've got to find it again. And maybe you don't find it, so then you have to be, I think, gracious with your being off balance. I was a little bit sloppy there. I was a little bit tight there. So this is the great opportunity of being together all day long on all kinds of forms and trying to develop intimacy.

[38:48]

And also that includes, part of intimacy is, part of this is also to be honest and say, well, that wasn't, yeah, I was actually trying to avoid that person or I was trying avoid that difficulty, or I was trying to, yeah, I was trying to control that person. I was trying to get my way. Yeah, right. I forgive him. I'm not going to beat myself up for that. That's enough. I was trying to control. So again, these forms, first of all, I said these forms are to realize emptiness, but it's another way to say these forms help us give up trying to control. When you realize emptiness, you give up trying to control. But even before you realize emptiness, you might be able to give up trying to control. And when you give up trying to control, you become fearless.

[39:52]

The more we try to control each other, the more we cultivate fear. But the funny thing is that the forms we're using to help people give up trying to control, when we give them, sometimes the person we give them to thinks we're trying to control them into doing the form. And yeah. Who's doing what is constantly changing. Yes. So should we just kind of wait and see what happens in terms of freezing? Just check it out. Definitely, that's, yeah, wait and see what it's like to freeze. And then, and then, and then, but, you know, maybe at the beginning of feeling like you're going to freeze, pay attention to the beginning of it would be good.

[40:57]

The breeze at dawn will tell you the beginning of the cold when you feel. And then, And then what would you like to do about that? And, yeah. You could come and tell me what you want to do. So that would offer an opportunity for you to tell me about how you're dealing with your body being in this valley and some things you'd like to do with that. So anything more on this particular point of... Yes? I think you said something like, if you're rigid, you're not being intimate.

[42:01]

Yeah. If one has... Rather change it to, we're always intimate, but if you're rigid, you're missing it. If that's so, because it seems to me if a person has a strong correct tendency towards rigidity, that is exactly and precisely what they have to be intimate with. That is exactly what's arising, and there is nothing else for them to be intimate with in that moment, because that's what's arising. Yeah, that's what I just said. You're always intimate. So if you're rigid, like you could be putting on a little skit of rigidity at that time, you are being rigid. But you could also, at that time, be aware of it, and you could actually relax with it, and then it wouldn't hinder you anymore. Yeah. Well, in that case, I would say you don't realize it. There's a realization of it that can come if you realize it.

[43:01]

That sounds like a kind of limited enlightenment to me. Well... I wouldn't say you should be able to, but it seems to me all-inclusive liberation would allow for... that great compassion is when you want to be compassionate towards oneself with what is arising, whether one could relax with it or not. Yes, but great compassion is relaxed. Totally relaxed with rigidity. Can it manifest in the same being? Can it manifest in the same being? Y-E-S. So like I said before, true intimacy involves a kind of, I think, alteration between supreme attunement and bewildering estrangement.

[44:06]

So I think of the lotus plant. Its roots supremely attuned to the mud of bewildering estrangement. And when there's bewildering estrangement, we often tense up. So the roots supremely attune to the tension. But the attunement involves relaxing with the tension. So the compassion is not trying to get rid of the tension. The compassion is not trying to get rid of the shushing. It's trying to find a perfect attunement, a non-dual intimacy with the, for example, with rigidity. And that mud of the rigidity makes the lotus all the more vital.

[45:16]

But the blotus is relaxed. Roots are relaxed. They aren't like, well, I can't bend over there to get that part of the mud. No, they actually are flexible with inflexibility. But it's not to eliminate inflexibility. Okay? Welcome. Thank you. What's the matter? You went like this. What does that mean? No, I'm only on one topic here. But there's different locations. There's different pieces of mud. There's a piece of mud up there. But I'll come back to you. Muddy Abbey. Yes. Would you just say that... manifest a rigid activity and be greatly compassionate?

[46:26]

Yes. At the same time as manifesting great compassion? Yeah. Or maybe an easier way to visualize it is your mind is in a rigid state a rigid state of sickness and disease, tormented and unable to relax. The body's really having a hard time and totally relaxed with them. You can be intimate with them. And it can be the same thing with yourself. Yes. Exactly. And you can be flexible with other people's inflexibility.

[47:30]

You can be healthy with other people's ill health. But if you're trying to hold on to your health, it's harder for you to be intimate with people who aren't healthy. Or if you're trying to hold on to your intelligence, it's harder for you to be intimate with people who are enacting stupidity. but it's really intelligent to not attach to intelligence, because then you can be intimate with people who are demonstrated. The point is to be together, because that's where we find peace. But, yeah, there's all these different kinds of mud. So could we call, I mean, at a certain point of inflexibility, could we call that... Calling inflexibility flexible is one of the things that flexibility can do. That's the Diamond Sutra. Inflexibility, inflexibility, the Tathagata teaches that as flexibility.

[48:36]

Therefore we call it inflexibility. That's what wisdom can do. But it has to be able to get in there and be close so it can move with it. Theoretically, so the dinosaur is just telling us, now we have the opportunity here to put this into practice maybe, to see if we can actually be flexible with inflexibility to the... For example, saying, that was pretty flexible there. Like that story I often tell, which I'm allowed to tell, about my wife... because it's already in the public domain. We're having dinner with these people. Do you know this story? And she says to the male partner in the couple, she says, where do you work? He says, I work in Irvine, California. And she says, what's Irvine like?

[49:39]

And he says, And his wife says, it's ugly. And he says, it's ugly. And my wife says, you should learn that. It's not that we're, this really is, this really rigidity. This really is flexibility. No, the thing is, the point is, this is really empty. But not just to say that, but to become so intimate with it that you're not stuck in either side. Yes? Oh, just a follow-up question. Saying earlier the way you described being compassionate, and I appreciated the conversation, but for me something that Eno said seemed a little bit more practical, because to expect great compassion... Did you say expect?

[50:43]

Yes. Yeah. Well, that's not part of the deal. Right. So what you were saying is that the great compassion is both empty and not angry, anxious, whatever. But that if those things arise in you... If anger arises in you, yes. or something else, then it's possible to be compassionate with that even though those things are absent in great compassion. Correct. That's right. Absent in great compassion is what great compassion deals with. All this stuff is what great compassion deals with, but these greed, hate and delusion aren't exactly present in great compassion. But great compassion has no other work than to embrace this stuff. But great compassion is not angry at anger. Right?

[51:49]

Yes. Yes. But not knowing is related to, I think, being gracious with what's going on. Yeah. She's referring to the expression of not knowing as most intimate. So she wanted to sort of look at how this being with something with not knowing would be in accord with being intimate with it. So, first practice that comes to mind at this moment is to be gracious with whatever you're meeting with. When you're gracious with things,

[52:50]

you don't really know what they are. You let them be what they are, what they appear to be, but you don't then say, well, that's what they are. Yeah. And also, then you practice precepts with whatever it is. And like you don't slander it means you don't say it's this way or that way. And also you don't and you're not possessive of it, like, this is what it is, and so on. And also you're patient with it. When you're patient with it, you finally become able to be so patient with it that you can be accepting that it isn't really even happening. And so on, all these ways of being patient with it without trying to control it. It's not that you don't have some idea of how it appears, but you don't grasp to your idea of how it appears.

[54:04]

You know, it looks like this, or it looks like that, it looks like Judith, but who knows what it is, really. Well, you might name it, but then you might say, you know, I'm not going to try to make this be Judith. I guess people would call her Judith, but I don't know who she is really. And I really don't know who this is. Although I guess if somebody says, what do you think her name is? Well, I think it's Judith. I mean, that's what it was yesterday. People were using that with somebody who looked like her. But actually, now that I think of it, you know, This is not the Judith that was here yesterday. This is a new person who I'm tentatively going to use the same name that I used with that other person who looks kind of like her, but actually also looks a little different. It really is a completely new person who looks a little older than the one yesterday. But it's a new person, and I don't know this new person.

[55:09]

But I actually want to deal with the new person rather than dealing with the old person. But I don't know who the new person is. It's a new person. The thing is, like, pretty intimate and pretty hard, too, to be that way with everybody. You know, to be that way with each other is not that easy. Like, who is this person that looks like this person I used to know? Who is it today? So then we try to find out without... grasping if possible. Yes? Thinking about the sloppiness of the form. Yes? That's something that supports my practice of sloppiness of certain forms. It's kind of the idea that time and preferences about some forms that I think are more important than others. So if I think that straightening up the V in my collar is not as important as having more time, having five more seconds to talk to my phone or something.

[56:22]

I might not pay careful attention to my collar. Can you hear him? Can you hear him? Yeah, that's right. But also, particularly again, this is perfect stuff for us to work on in a situation like this. It's very important for me to be aware that I think one thing is more important than another. That's also part of intimacy, which is more important to talk about. or to adjust my collar? Or is there something even more important than either one of those? And for me, I would say, I think there is. Now, what would that be? Yeah, I'd say, well, it would be being intimate with right now is more important than whether I stay on the phone or adjust my collar.

[57:26]

Because that's what the phone's for. And that's what the collar is for. All this stuff are just opportunities for compassion and intimacy. And then again, another test of intimacy is non-attachment. So one of the great things to work on here is when you're talking on the phone and the bell rings, is there a little attachment to staying on the phone a little longer? Writing a letter, and the bell rings, is there a little attachment to finishing the sentence? Okay. The bell rang, but I want to finish this sentence or this paragraph or read another paragraph. You know, what does it feel like when you actually like, when you actually like are doing something and the bell rings and you actually like

[58:32]

give it up." Wow. That's kind of an essential point. But I don't really know which is more important, whether it's more important to go to the zendo now or to finish this paragraph. I don't know which is more important. it seemed like it's essential that I give up whichever one I'm doing. So if I'm walking to the Zendo and somebody comes up to me and says, would you talk to this person on the telephone please? This is not a cell phone, but this is a satellite phone. So I'm walking and somebody comes up and puts a telephone in my face. Am I attached to keep going to the Zendo? Or can I stop and say, oh wow, this is like, this is one of those great Zen moments.

[59:34]

The teacher's on the way to the Zendo and they get what they do. Is he rigid? Is he stuck in his momentum? Or what? That's for him to look at himself about. one of the first questions I asked the security officer was, what's the right effort? And he said, to get up with no hesitation when the alarm goes off. And he worked at that himself, and I've been working to get up with no hesitation to to give up the telephone call with no hesitation when the bell rings. Even though you may continue to talk a little more, you actually have given up the telephone call when you hear the bell.

[60:39]

You've given up the telephone call even before you heard the bell. Can you have a conversation and every moment give it up? and be ready for the next moment of the conversation, rather than I'm talking to you and I really want to finish this sentence, rather than I'm talking to you and I'm willing to stop any time for the sake of real intimacy. To me, that's the central issue, not which is most important. Because all the forms are pointing to this enlightenment which is not holding to any form and just using the forms to express it and test it. Yes? You personally don't like shushing people, but if you see that somebody's shushing, you may say, instead of saying, don't shush the people, you may say, oh, it was a good shush or something like that.

[61:55]

Yeah, I might. You might. But inside of you, being that person, change? Or are you really greatly appreciating that shushing? This is why, you know, I worry a lot, but worry, like you say something good, like, oh, you're doing well, but instead, really, what? Well, there's a lot. There's many possibilities. Yeah. How can I know... Well, I'm not really trying to find out what's going on really, myself, by this practice. Because that's to try to find out what's going on. I'm actually more like trying to realize what's going on. I'm trying to become intimate with what's going on rather than me know what's going on. Yeah, I could be honest.

[63:06]

For example, in this story, I see somebody shushing somebody who was talking during work period. And I might think, I'm glad they shushed him instead of me. No, no. I'm saying, I'm happy that the person got that feedback. Because I don't want the people to talk during work period. I actually don't. I want people to be quiet here during work period. I have that value to work in quiet. I think that's a good form. And when people do work in quiet, I actually often appreciate it. But I don't want them to work in quiet rigidly and unkindly, hating everybody else that's making any noise. But it's possible that someone would shush somebody and I actually would appreciate it. So when you say that, you mean it? No, that's one. That's just one example.

[64:08]

The other example would be, I'm sorry that they shushed the person because it hurt the person. I might see that. Oh, that was too bad. You shushed them. Or they shushed them and they felt bad themselves. I might feel pain for them that they were mean to the person. But then I might also feel like, oh, but this is a good opportunity. Or I might be angry at the person. It's also possible. And then I would have to be kind to the shusher or the shushi. A lot of possibilities might happen to me. But the point is, no matter what it is, that you practice intimacy with it. But my point is, what you express is sometimes not literally reflect what you... Then communication doesn't happen. Well, again, there's literal.

[65:09]

That has its place. And that's usually where you start. There's also non-literal. And there's also both, literal and non-literal. These are different layers of communication. But again, if I see someone shushing and I feel that they're not appreciating the person they shushed, I might appreciate them. I might really appreciate them. Well, both, yeah, I could appreciate both, possibly. It's possible that someone, I could think that a lot of people here could, I shouldn't say a lot of people, but just that somebody here might be able to really respect their teacher. Their teacher. You know, their teacher might be going, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and say, shush. You know, shush, master.

[66:11]

Shush. But they're totally, totally respectful. You are my master and I'm shushing you now. You're talking too much. We don't need you to say any more. They might do that. Totally appreciate this is a wonderful teacher who just got carried away talking too much. So that's possible to shush somebody with total respect. It's also possible to shush someone not respecting them, not looking at them and saying, I don't know who this person is. but I want to shush them. It's possible that you would really respect them and really feel intimate with them and go up to them and say, shush. And they might really feel and say, thank you. Or maybe they don't even say thank you. They just feel it. And then a couple days later they say, that was so great when you shushed me. That really helped me.

[67:12]

I'll always remember that. Thank you. And you might feel, yeah, I really respected you at that time. I totally respected you and I felt like I should give you this gift. I wasn't trying to get you to shush. I was just saying, in my heart, wonderful, dear friend who I don't even know who you are, here's a shush. Really giving this to you. And if you don't shush, maybe I'll give you another one. But I'm not trying to control you. But I feel I want to give this to you now. This is who I am. I've got to shush. I'm sorry, like, I still don't understand that you said, like, even though you personally may don't shush person, but if somebody is shushing and you said thank you for the shushing, which you mean it, really mean it.

[68:18]

That's why you expressed it. You don't say that, right? Even though it's not your way of doing this. Am I not clear? I think you're clear. I mean, you're clear to me, but you seem to be telling me that you're not clear. Do you have a question? Yeah. One more thing I would say in this regard is that if I see someone shushing someone else, there's a lot of possibilities there. And I might ask, feel okay about this person doing what they did. But I also might not feel good about this person doing what they did. I might feel that was painful because you didn't respect that person when you shushed them. I might feel that way. Let's just take the example of I see them and I think.

[69:26]

It appears to me that they don't respect this person, that they're not being kind to this person. Let's say I see this. And in my heart, perhaps, I accept, even though it's painful for me to see, I accept that they're shushing this person. I might feel that way. And then still you're going to say it was a great shush anyway? I might. It's possible. But then, there is a, like a, how about people who... But just a second, you said then, but the person might say, might wonder, what do you mean by that? They might. And then a few minutes later they might say, I wonder if he really meant that. It may not. I'm not in control here. I'm not talking about having things under control. But I am talking about that's a pretty intimate thing to do to somebody.

[70:34]

Not too intimate. I think it's pretty intimate for me to go to somebody who I just see apparently being unkind to somebody and for me to actually go near them and interact with them. It's pretty intimate. If it was my case, I want to ask you to say, it's not kind, more directly say, to get the point. Can I ask that to you? You can. But are you trying to control me into doing that? I'm requesting. Yeah, you're requesting and I hear your request. And I'm asking you now, are you trying to control me into doing that? I'm not trying to do that. I'm requesting you to be honest and more easy to understand for me. You're asking me to be more literal with you. Is that right? That's what it doesn't really mean.

[71:37]

Okay. What was the word you used before? Yeah, but I'm not going to tell you ever, probably. I'll probably never tell you that you're being unkind. Yeah, I might tell you, I think you are. Yeah, I would tell you, you know what I think? But then I think I have to be very careful to tell you what I think. Understand that I'm telling you what I think, not what is so. So I might say, it appears I had this fantasy just now that you were unkind to that person. Yes.

[72:43]

Yes. I don't understand what you mean when you say you shush somebody but you're not trying to control them. It seems to me that if you go shh, you are influencing their behavior. I was not trying to control your behavior just then. And I didn't. I'm not in control of you. Let's talk about you. About me? Okay. Let's talk about you. Let's talk about shushing and whether when you shush or when you say take your socks off or when you say blah, blah, blah. Anyone says it. I don't understand. Well, I really appreciate your question. Thank you.

[73:44]

So it's one of the things that I wish to help us understand is that we can ask people to do things without trying to get them to do it. That I can ask you to be a good boy without trying to get you to be a good boy. Because I want to give you the gift. I want to give you the gift that I would like you to be a good boy. Because I would, actually. Sometimes I would. So I tell you that about me, that I want you to be a good boy. Or I could even put it this way. I want to tell you something about myself. I want you to be a good boy. But I'm not. get you to be a good boy. So then if you say, I don't want to be a good boy, and matter of fact, I'm not going to be a good boy, I can be with you.

[74:48]

Because you didn't frustrate me, because I wasn't trying to get you to do that. I was giving you a gift. I may die at the end of that sentence and never see what your response is, but I died. On the other hand, if I tell you to be a good boy and I'm trying to get you to be a good boy and trying to control you into being a good boy and I die at that moment, I die trying to get something. So I'm talking about converting to a life of trying to get people to do things to a life of giving to people. So you give people many things and one of the things you give them is information about yourself, about what you want. Like I would like you to be intimate with your clothing, but I'm not trying to control you or get you to be intimate with your clothing. I'm just telling you. And then if you're not, if you don't do what I want you to do and you don't do what I ask you to do, I won't abandon you.

[75:48]

I won't give up on you. But if I do things to you to control you, give up on you. Not because there's anything wrong with you, but because I'm trying to get stuff from you. And you cannot get people under control, and if you try to, you're going to go away from them and go try to find somebody else to get under control. To really follow through with people, we have to be giving to them, not trying to get them under our control. So in fact, I do, if you're punching me hard, I do kind of want you to stop, maybe. Not always. Sometimes I kind of might enjoy it. And that might be lots of fun for both of us. Sometimes I might not be enjoying it, and actually I want you to stop, so I say, please stop, Gary. But I say that to you, I should say, I'm trying to learn how to say that to you without trying to get you to stop by saying that.

[76:55]

Because actually I have other ways of stopping you from hitting me besides talking. Now, you know, use words. They tell the kids. So when kids hit each other, instead of having the kids hit back, they now say, use your words. But I'm talking about something else. Besides use your words to get them to stop, I'm talking about use your words to appreciate them, to be intimate with them. Use your words as an opportunity of giving up trying to control them. That's the main thing I'm talking about here, is use your words for intimacy rather than for control. Intimacy is being honest. Namely, I want this from you. I want you to do this, I want you to do that, that's where I'm at. Honestly, that's where I'm at. So I tell you that sometimes. And I look to myself, now if he doesn't do that, am I going to continue to be devoted to being honest with him?

[78:04]

And hopefully I say, yeah. Because that wasn't a controlling thing. But if I was a controlling thing, I'd say, no, I don't think I'm going to continue. I'm going to give up on him because he's not a candidate for control. Yes? So can I bring up a practical, like a practical example? Yeah, yeah. Let's say that you're the Phuketan. Yes. member who is constantly late, who doesn't listen to how the directions on how to prep things, or whatever it is, and you are saying that you're not trying to, as the Phuketan, you wouldn't try to control this person, whatever, that you would basically just let them know honestly how you were, what you would like. Yeah, yeah, right. I would like you to come on time, and then And then they don't. And then they come late again. You say, I would like you to come on time. And they don't. And then you say, I would like you to be on a different crew. And they don't, you know.

[79:09]

They don't. But they feel this thing that you wanted them to come on time, and then they didn't. You wanted them again, and then they didn't. You wanted them to be there. and they didn't, but you kept being honest with them. On some level you're teaching them, if you're practicing it, you're teaching them giving. They're not under your control though. But although they're not under your control and they're really not your idea of easy person to work with, you're doing your bodhisattva work of teaching them giving. They're learning the Dharma practice from you. And the price of it is that there is a painful relationship of them coming late and so on. But also, it should be joyful. I want you to come on time. That's a gift. And it should be joyful to say that to them.

[80:11]

If it's not, you're not really enjoying the fact that you're giving the gift. The happy promise of this is that if you really do this wholeheartedly, you realize that when you say to them, please come on time at that moment, they give you a gift too. Before the next moment when they do or do not come, right at that time, they also give you a gift. Intimacy of you telling them, I... You know, I really want you to come on time. In the intimacy of that, you realize the emptiness of the form of kitchen work and the form of being on time. That's one of our important forms, being on time. That form is a great form to realize the emptiness of that form, but not by inattention to it, but by attention to it. This is the time. They're late. I see that. I bring my attention to it. I'm gracious. I'm not overbearing. I'm generous.

[81:15]

I'm patient. And now I realize the emptiness. I've told you this ten times already, and so you don't have a feeling of joy, you don't feel like it's a gift. Yeah. But it's still, as the fifth time, you still have this response, uphold the forms in the kitchen, or what have you. So you might still have to say something, even though it doesn't feel joyous. You might have to say something, it's possible that you feel like you might have to say it. However, when you notice they're late, you're upholding the form. When you register that they're late, the form's upholding you. It's upholding you. You're upholding the clock. You're doing the form just by noticing it. Some teachers notice things a million times and never say anything. And they're teaching every moment. You know, they notice, this is off.

[82:16]

Bodhidharma was like that with Hweka. This is off, that's off, that's off. But he was there noticing. So you can uphold the form without saying anything. When we're really giving, when we have something to say and also to watch them is also giving. I'm just going to watch them. That's a gift. I mean, I'm going to watch them as a gift. I'm going to be devoted to this person, this late comer. I'm going to watch them like a benevolent hawk. This is going to be my gift to them. I'm going to be their special friend of keeping track of them and watching them and being devoted to them. I'm going to do this for them. And then you should feel joy over that. And when you do, you notice that they're giving you a gift too. And now we're transmitting wisdom.

[83:17]

It's not, you know, that's not written under every single position in this monastery, but it really is under every position. All these positions are for teaching wisdom in the medium of kindness and generosity. That's the point here, right? And all these different forms are responsibilities for us to do these practices. And we sincerely accept these responsibilities, but what's the point of these responsibilities is enlightenment. That's the point of all this. Not just to get another meal out. But getting the meal out is for the purpose of realizing wisdom and compassion. So when you're the Phuketan, you're giving the gift of your life to this job, which includes that you know that's part of the job, and you give yourself to noticing that.

[84:24]

And you say, I give myself to all these people quite easily, actually. It's quite easy for me to notice when they're on time. That's not hard. What's hard is to remember that my is a gift. I'm not paying attention to them to have them under control. I'm paying attention to them as a gift. If Shakyamuni Buddha just happened to drop by here today and go up and sit in the zendo, he would be wondering who comes in the room. He would be noticing you when you came in the room. He would be noticing whether you're on time or not. And wouldn't you feel blessed that Shakyamuni Buddha was watching your zazen attendance? Wouldn't you feel like, my God, the Buddha came into the room and is giving us practice. I mean, that's what we came here for, is to have the Buddha watch us practice.

[85:27]

That's what I went to Zen Center for, is to have Suzuki Roshi watch my practice and give me feedback. So when he came to give me feedback, I always felt like this is a gift. You can move into that position too, that when we give feedback as Phuketan or director or whatever, it's like Buddha observing these people and giving them gifts. But there's forms, you know, like Zendo, kitchen, so on. These are the forms and we do it. but we're not trying to control each other in the Buddha way. Yes? Just touching the face. Yes, Timo? It doesn't fit to me so much that this was given as a gift and just for realizing our intimacy.

[86:27]

It more feels like really there are some people who really want us to control us, to sign that liability waiver. If you don't sign, you could say they just don't invite us to come here then. Well, it is possible that some people don't see what they're doing as a gift. that if you asked some people, they would say, no, that wasn't a gift. I was trying to control those people. Some people are trying to control me. But just because they're trying to control me doesn't mean I have to try to control them back. So bodhisattvas live in a world where people are trying to control each other because they're afraid of each other. So this thing about this waiver, people are afraid that somebody's going to sue Zen Center if something happens, right? afraid. It's possible. I don't know. And so they think, okay, let's try to control these people and get them to sign the waiver and then we don't, we feel less afraid.

[87:29]

Okay. You might give them that gift of saying, okay, I'll sign this if that makes you, if I'll do it. And then, and now, now can we play? Yeah, now we can play. Now I'm relaxed. Now that you've signed the waiver. So I guess if we all sign the waiver, then we can have a great practice period. Everybody will be happy with us being generous with each other all the time. Even though they maybe didn't see what they did here as a gift to us. But maybe they do see it as a gift. And they weren't trying to control us. I don't know. I really don't know. Waiver. Would somebody bring me the waiver and witness it? Have these been signed?

[88:35]

I don't know who was next. I think Charlie maybe was next. So I've been experimenting with this practice of telling people what I want them to do as a gift and not control them. And I've been doing this in the lab of my friends and family, things like that. And some of them don't believe me that I'm not trying to control them. In fact, they're so used to people trying to control them that when I tell them something about what I want, they assume that that I understand. That's right. And that's a very important example because some people, especially people who really value your love, when they see you practicing giving, which is what they want you to be practicing, people want you to be generous with them. People do not want you to try to control them. And when they see generosity and giving up control, they so much want that that they want to test it to make sure it's real.

[89:55]

So then they say, well, you seem to be asking me to do something and you don't seem to be trying to control me, but how about if I did this, would you be able to not control that? Not to try to control that. So I think partly they don't believe it. They want to know, could this be true? and they sometimes keep pushing it and pushing it will stand up the test of wide variety of difficult to be gracious with events. Especially for those for whom generosity would be most valuable. So yeah, the... Use your generosity to more and more, that sort of purifies it and makes it more and more pure, more and more true that these people don't believe you and give you more and more difficult things to be generous towards. I was going to ask if you have a suggestion for ways that are clearer that it's a gift.

[91:02]

Yeah. Particularly with my friends who may not give me feedback as much as my parents would or something, and may not stick around as much either. If it's someone I don't know that well, and they're like, well, that guy's kind of controlling. I might not have a chance to interact with them again, unless I can express that more up front. Well, I guess the main thing is you check your heart, for starters, and when you say, I want you to do this, you look and see. In any way, undermine my devotion to them. And if they don't do what I'm asking them to do, will I be totally up for handling that? And one of the main examples of this was when I told my daughter at one point that if she doesn't get a job in the next week, I want her to move out of the house.

[92:10]

I told her that one time. And the main thing that I did when I told her was... that I felt really good about was I looked her in the eye when I told her and I didn't look away from that face when I said what I said. Because to tell her something she wants to hear and she didn't want to hear this. If I look away I don't know what the response to my gift was. In other words, I don't know what she gives me back. They can see that you're willing to be with them when you tell them what you want. That you're mainly wanting to be with them. They can see that.

[93:12]

And they may not like what you asked. And they may also not even think that you're going to get them to do it But they do notice that you're not going away from them at that time. And at that time, I was able to stay in touch with her when I told her what I wanted, when I thought it probably was something she didn't want. But although she moved out of the house if she didn't get a job, I think she did want me to tell her that. Namely, I think she wanted her father to tell her about her father. And I did. But even though I told her, I didn't tell her by letter. I didn't tell her and look away. I told her and stayed with her. And that worked out really well. And she did what I wanted, actually. She got a job the next day. But if she hadn't,

[94:16]

I would have felt good about that gift because I still have it. And I think she felt that. And then the next day when she got a job, I was with her a few minutes after she got the job and she said to me, do you think I did that last night? And I said, I don't know. And that was the right answer. I mean, it was true, but it was also what she wanted to hear. In other words, I didn't know how that influenced her. And she knew that too, that it wasn't really that I made her do this. But the information she wanted helped her do what she wanted. She wanted to get a job. That helped her do what she wanted to do. So we're, in this way, I think we're helping each other be authentic. But we have to, when we give the gift, we have to like really be there and deliver it with our whole body.

[95:21]

And to give a gift like, I want you to do something really different from what you're doing, or I want you to do something really hard, and I don't think you want to hear this. It's very hard to look in the face of someone who you do not like to see any pain in. But that's in fact, that is that who you are is a painful thing if they knew. So we should tell them. If who you are is a painful thing for me, you should tell me. Even though I do not particularly want to see this thing about you which is going to be painful for me, but I . It's a gift. But not all gifts are comfortable to receive, but it was a joy for me to give her that gift. It was a joy. I felt totally, I really felt like a dad.

[96:22]

And again, it had this really good result. And it was one of the greatest moments in our life together. Anything else this morning? Yes. I was thinking of a story that sounds similar to the guest program manager. And I was feeling like your explanation about how to meet the person and be committed to who you field on. maybe you're continually being present with a person, giving maybe the same, especially the same wish repeatedly. I guess for me the challenge gets a lot more complicated. I feel that if this were my only job, like if the director told me that it's my only job to just stay with this person,

[97:30]

But it said, actually, when it feels like an enormous pressure, actually, like, by Phuketan, probably, I hear from the community, where the meals can be on time, so there's just added layers of pressure. So how to stay available, how to stay committed to a person in a challenging situation, environment, Well, the environment is part of the reason why you want them to come on time. I mean, you might want them to come on time even though there was like no commitment at a particular schedule. You still might want them to come on time just because you think that's a good practice for us to do here together. You still might want that. for the person's practice.

[98:34]

So the pressure of other people on you to together with the group, that makes you all the more the person who wants them to come on time, maybe. That makes you more who you are. And the more you feel that pressure, the more clear you are, maybe, about who you are and what you want. I agree. I feel all that. That also makes the inclination to grasp this thing that you want that much stronger. It makes the inclination to become attached to this person. Well, you can put it that way. Another way to put it is that to be generous with somebody and then people put pressure on you, it's hard for you to be generous with the pressure And if you're not being generous with the pressure, that will get transmitted to your relationship with other people.

[99:36]

So in fact, when there's a lot of pressure on us, it's hard for us to do what's around us, namely the pressure. And all the different people that are with us, it makes it harder. So you might go into the pressure givers and say, I have a request that you, and I'm not trying to control you, I just want to let you know that the pressure It makes it hard for me to be generous with my crew. And again, people may say, well, I'm sorry, nothing we can do about it. But the fact that you were able to give the gift, to make that a gift, you're on the right page. But that's part of what we're doing here is that we have some pressure. You know, there's some pressure here. And can we relax with the pressure?

[100:38]

It's being given to us by people coming late. It's being given to us by people coming early. It's being given to us by people making requests upon us. All this stuff's being given to us. And the more we can welcome it, the less it'll be pressure. But sometimes we get caught off guard and something is transmitted to us before we realize that it was a gift. And if we miss the chance that it's a gift, it's not too late. We can convert it retrospectively or retroactively to a gift. Like when somebody steals something from you, you miss the chance to give it to them. At that moment, you feel like it's a gift and you feel like it's stolen from you. But then you say, oh, no, I changed the story. I'm giving it to them. Or they pressurize me. No, no, I change the story. I welcome their request. It's the same request, but I missed the chance that it was a gift, so I feel bad that it wasn't a gift, that they put this on me, that they shoved this upon me, rather than I received it.

[101:51]

But that's not good for me, so now I'm going to change my story to the practice of giving. The possibility is, you know, I'm having trouble seeing what you just did as a gift. Would you help me please? You know, I need your help. Somehow I feel like you just laid this on me rather than you gave this to me as an act of generosity. Would you help me with this? And some people might say, yeah, I'd like... Would you do this... Can we do this together? Because if we don't do it together, I don't know how to do it in accord with our practice of intimacy. Can we try this again, sort of like together? Because isn't that what we want here? I missed before, but now I'd like to try again.

[102:55]

I'm honest. I didn't see how we were cooperating, but this time do it with feeling, with cooperation. So you confess, you know, you missed. You missed a beat. Let's try again. I'm sorry. That was my fault. I missed. Let's try again. Yes? I'm compelled to share a little bit about my previous job where I mentioned teachers, brand new teachers. And a key aspect of the work, I mean, my job ultimately was to ensure that children were learning in a safe, healthy environment, being respected, and a very complex with a lot of complex problems.

[104:02]

And often with new teachers who didn't know a heck of a lot about children in Oakland. There I was. And the way we were trained to give feedback and interact and guide these colleagues was first to Just write down exactly, or to the best of our capacity, write down what we were seeing. And then output that new teacher. Here's what I saw when I was in there for this hour. And then to open up space for them to then say what their intention was in that lesson, what they see in the notes that were presented to them. And then to hear from them. their experience of it. And then to get to a place where I could ask a question to learn more about their experience. And then in learning more about what I was seeing and they were seeing, then it became more possible to give feedback that met that person's needs.

[105:14]

in terms of their experience of, say, that one lesson, that one interaction with the child. To name the specifics in terms of just this is what it's like. Not what I think about what it's like, but by children going down in our room. And then to hear . then that invites a questioner to learn more. Yeah, this sounds like... And I thank you, actually, in this practice, because through this practice, I had the capacity to stick with that for two years and see them grow and give them the space to name what they needed to learn and what they didn't understand. It was hard for them. That's great, yeah.

[106:21]

And the point of this to some extent was, there's two points. One is for you to have a good relationship with the teachers. but also to have a good relationship with the teachers that you have gets transmitted to the children. That hopefully the teachers could do that. That the teachers could tell the kids what they're observing and ask the kids what they were up to. That they would do the same thing with the kids and then the kids would feel respected. So I think the process you're doing shows your respect for the teacher, but you did give them something as a to realize your respect. And they need to give the kids something, too. First of all, you have to give them the gift of watching, of paying attention. Then they have to give them another gift of telling them what they see. But then the next step is to ask them how they feel so they feel respected, rather than just being... Part of respect is for it to go both ways.

[107:28]

Yeah, this method we should practice here, the same method here with each other. Like, I see you as late. What's going on for you there? What was your intention? What were you thinking about coming late? What are you trying to tell me? No, I was talking to Marco about the people coming late. So when they come late, she could say, I observe you coming late.

[108:12]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_86.29