Shall we read it? Read the introduction and the case and the verse. This, I think this is pronounced, this guy's name is pronounced Di Zang. Di Zang. That's maybe not the right tone, but it's Di Zang. Ditsan Planting the Fields. Scholars plowed the land. Warriors plowed the town. We watched the white horses on the river ground. Not paying attention to the useless, discreet threats.

[01:01]

How did that face? Ditsan Planting the Fields. Where do you come from? To this answer, there is excessive deception. Di Zang said, what can you do about the world? Di Zang said, what do you call the world? Yes? Source and explanation variously are all made up. Has to get the air from mouth, it comes apart. Planting fields, making rice, or ordinary household matters.

[02:06]

Only those who have investigated to the full would know. Having investigated to the full, clearly know that there's nothing to seek. which he thought, after all, didn't care to be in a 12-desk. As long as he was there, he would return the same insufficient burdens, washing his feet in the town lawn and the hazing waters of the lawn. We have this initiation we do in Zen.

[03:43]

When someone comes to want to enter into the monastery, we have an initiation process which we call Tangad Yo, which literally means, it's naming the room. Panga means a traveling itinerant monk, and rio means room. So pangadio is the room that a traveling monk stays in. It's also kind of like a decompression chamber that a monk who wants to enter the monastery sits in for one day or five days or seven days or something as a kind of expression of sincerity. So when people are, and they just sit all the time basically, rather than sit a little bit and walk a little bit, you just sit there.

[04:50]

So recently a group of people here did that kind of initiation ceremony and afterwards one of them came and told me about not liking this initiation process, thinking that it was, and it didn't make any sense. And something like, didn't make any sense, or purposeless, or a waste of time, or something like that. After saying that, this person said, come to think of it, when people do meaningful, productive work, there's often some tension between them. Whereas in this case, when people did this sort of meaningless thing, they had kind of this bond was created between them. Not to say you should go do meaningless things.

[05:53]

I'm not saying the Tongari is a meaningless thing, but in fact, this person who was feeling that it was kind of meaningless noticed after complaining that it had that effect. Maybe you can guess why I bring that up before you study this case. The introduction's pretty interesting. The first sentence is pretty straightforward, right? Scholars plow with a pen or a brush. And orators plow with their tongue.

[06:57]

Instead of orators, you could also say dialecticians or debaters. Instead of tongue, you could say speech. This dialecticians and this orator business relates to the case in the sense of extensive discussion. And of course, people could debate by mail, too, by writing letters. And then it says, we patch-robed monks, we patch-robed mendicants, lazily watch a white ox on open ground, not paying attention to the rootless, auspicious grass. This is open ground, folks.

[08:15]

Here you are on your open ground. How do you feel? You're kind of bored with this ox? You're the ox. You're lazily watching it? But what about, you don't pay attention to the rootless, auspicious grass? What is the Rudler's auspicious grass? Yeah, isn't that an interesting word, that?

[09:22]

That's maybe so. It doesn't last very long. That's probably part of it. What might last forever? It's like you have... It's like you have... How does it grow? I think it grows from the roots. I didn't want to answer your question, but when I did, I was very happy.

[10:27]

It grows from the roots. Somebody said to me, I don't know where these words are coming from. But we, we Zen monks, we don't even look at that. We don't even look at that rootless grass, which grows from roots which aren't there. I really find this introduction thrilling. Too close attention would perhaps make it wounded.

[11:44]

You might think if you pay too close attention to it that it better have roots. Otherwise, why am I wasting my time? We become scholars in order. Maybe so, yeah. We have to start plowing with our brushes and our ears instead of kind of too tired, maybe, to look at this rip of suspicious grass. Another translation, by the way, of this is this splendid herb. Is there another translation for lazily?

[12:47]

Lazily tired? We tire of looking at this white ox on open ground. Yeah, open ground. It's quite a different feeling between lazily and tired. Yeah, well, you got both of them now. Oh, by the way, I want to tell you one other point, is that the name of this Ditsang, the name of the monk in this case, Ditsang is Jizo. You know, Jizo, the Bodhisattva Muzendo, next to the Manjushri, Jizo Bosatsu. This monk has that same name, Jizo. in Chinese, Yicong.

[13:49]

And it means earth storehouse or earth moon. This monk has the same name as I already saw, but just sort of that's a coincidence. Would it be possible to see both the ox and the grass? Or does it have to be either or? Is it possible to see both the arcs and the grass? What's the arcs and what's the grass? It seems to be a figure and it seems to be the ground. One's a figure, one's a ground? Yeah. So depending on our focus and our attention... What does this guy... Oh, let's go and let's do one more line before we go on.

[15:05]

It says... how to pass the days. Yes? He's a farmer, right? He's talking how the scholars, how the pen will edit everything off and what they need to do paperwork. Would you speak up, Kevin? He's a farmer. Uh-huh. He's not exactly, he's the abbot, okay? This guy's the abbot. But he said he grows rice. Yeah, he does, but he's not a regular farmer. But it's true, it's true that this ox might have something to do with his work. That's true. Yes, Charlie? Is the ox grazing on, eating the auspicious grass? Is that what he's eating? Probably. Could the ox be like some idea of what the auspicious grass really is?

[16:18]

Like the auspicious grass might be reality, and the ox might be some concept of who is in reality. Could be. This is open ground, so right ahead. Could the ox be the mind? The ox be the mind? Yes, it could. Definitely. Usually ox is plow, right? Usually ox is plow. So in this story... It's not clear, actually. They also pull carts. It's not clear. Just to make things all the more interesting, or boring, there's the ten ox herding pictures of Zen. Don't forget those. They're floating around here someplace in the culture. And the ox in one series goes from black to white.

[17:23]

And another thing is that in the Lotus Sutra, There's a scene there where these kids are in a burning house. And the father tells the kids to come out. But they won't come out because they're having fun with their toys in the house. He says, the house is on fire. Come on out, kids. And they say, just a minute. We just want to finish this game. They won't come out. So then he says, he gets this idea. Oh, I got you these new toys. I got you these beautiful carts. I mean, then he describes his carts. I mean, these are like 2,500 years ago, the neatest motorcycles, you know. And these carts are pulled by three kinds. One pulled by deer, one pulled by horses, and I think another one pulled by goats.

[18:34]

And the kids say, oh great, and they put their toys down and come running out of the burning house. When they get outside, the father has the cart for them, but the cart is not. What he told them exactly, he only has one kind of cart. And it's a cart pulled by white oxen or bullocks. So that's another thing that's going on here with the white ox that we kind of get tired of looking at. And we don't even look at this rootless grass. that's on this open ground, like this bare ground. Right? Isn't that our practice? Isn't that how we, well, isn't that how we are intending to practice? If you leave an ox alone, they don't plow or pull carts.

[19:41]

Yeah. As far as we know. We haven't seen them do that unless you book them up. Yeah, they don't know how to hook themselves up. They eat grass. They eat grass, yes. And we eat grass too. Yes. Could it be that watching the white ox on open ground, I refer to meditation practice. Yes. And being absorbed in emptiness and not paying attention to the root of suspicious grass, dealing with the world.

[20:46]

And the question, how to pass the days, how do we live in the world? Yeah, or how do we live in the monster? The question is, how do we, we Zen monks, how do we pass our days? How do we do it? We don't, I mean, we don't plow with our tongue and we don't plow with our with our pen. Actually, this person is pawing with a pen right now. I'm talking, you know. Sometimes we're accused of talking too much, so we're bad Zen monks then, pawing with our tongue, but essentially, bottom line Zen, we're not pawing with our tongue, we're with our pen. So how do we pass our day? What's the way we pass our day, we good Zen monks? Kick back, relax and watch the wall, right? And then how is it that watching the wall is

[22:06]

lazily watching the white ox and not even looking at the root of the saucepan, which was grass. You want to look at the case now? This is an introduction to the case. Or do you want to discuss the very same one? Is it clear that... It's very clear. Not for me. Our love is here to stay. That it's the we that are not paying attention can be the ox that's not paying attention? I actually asked that question too, and fortunately there's some people here who know English. I'm not one of them, and you're not one of them. The comma means no. The comma means that it's the we that are not looking at it rather than the ox. When I first had looked at it, I thought maybe the ox wasn't looking at the grains. But it's we who are not looking at the grass. The ox is, we don't know what the ox is doing.

[23:10]

but it's not the ox, right? Is that English punctuation? Yeah. We don't look at the grass or turn towards the grass. Now, I can say to you that maybe part of the illusion here is that ordinary Buddhist monks, and I shouldn't say ordinary, like not good Buddhist monks, but good Buddhist monks usually do spend their time looking at rootless grass. That's what they do. That's what they looked at, rootless grass. In other words, they look at grass, right? What's grass? Huh? Stuff. Scuff, yeah. Grass is stuff. I have this little cloth here. On this cloth it says, For whom do the hundred grasses bloom?

[24:14]

Hundred grasses means all phenomena. So ordinarily Buddhist monks meditate on grass, and they meditate on rootless grass because grass is impermanent, Right? Stuff is impermanent, not self, and ill, and empty too. So they meditate on the grass, and they find out it's rootless, has no actual roots, and it's fleeting. That's a good practice. But these Zen monks don't even do that. How do they spend their days? So is this praise and not paying attention? Is that a statement of praise? It's a statement of praise, yes. It's a praise.

[25:18]

It's a statement of homage. He's aligning himself with the Zen tradition, this commentator. He's praising the Zen tradition. No, I don't think, you know, kind of, what do you call it, nepotically, I don't think it's kind of like just being, you know, arrogant about his own lineage, but praising his lineage, you know, praising the lineage of Zen, which has this nice practice of not putting down the other Buddhist monks who do that practice, but not even having that mind of doing that practice. Because it can read, not paying attention, you know, it sort of provisionally seems like it's not recommending you should pay attention. Definitely, of course you should. I mean, that's what our practice is, is to pay attention. Yes. And certainly if I saw the root of the suspicious graduate, wouldn't you think I should pay attention?

[26:24]

Well, if you saw, you wouldn't be paying attention. But he's saying you're not paying attention, but you're saying that's praise. Right. He doesn't say not paying attention, but he says lazily watching. That's different. It says lazily watching and it says not paying attention to the rootless grass. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. But it's praise. Yes. So how would, I mean, without denying basic Buddhist mindfulness practice, right, mindfulness of phenomena, we do that, right? But somehow Zen practice is trying to make an additional point. It's not saying not to pay attention because, as you know, Zen is, of course, it doesn't contradict paying attention. It must be, I feel, it's pointing to some special quality of attention, some special instruction about how to pay attention, which will really help us.

[27:30]

So it should be clear that Zen is a special transmission inside the scriptures, right? Scriptures say Buddhist practitioners should pay attention. What should they pay attention to? They should pay attention to grass. And by paying attention to grass, you'll notice the grass is rootless, that it's ill, it doesn't have a self. When you notice that, you're heading for insight. Already you have a little insight, but if you keep being aware that phenomena are rootless, You're priming yourself for, you know, freedom from belief in the Self. So we should practice that. Now, that's the sort of... that kind of concentration leads you to a kind of penetration into what's going on in the world. as we talked about before, that would lead you into this path of vision.

[28:39]

That kind of meditation is a path of concerted effort. When you start to see that the grass is rootless, that the grass doesn't have self, the grass is ill, that kind of effort will lead you to enter into the path of vision, into having insight, into selflessness. and awakening and stream-entership. Is this the sense in which the grass is obstructive? Yeah, right. The rootlessness of it is what is so wonderful. It's selfless grasses. And it's probably, I would guess, you know, that there are certain kinds of grasses that are particularly symbolic of reality, maybe, by being somewhat like a orchid or something.

[29:40]

Maybe a kind of reminder of emptiness, an emptiness type of plant, kind of. It's not possible or relevant to see, but I don't know if it... Meditators of old in India made efficient seats out of one or another kind of auspicious grass, a particular kind of grass. Kusa grass. What were you saying? And it was called auspicious grass? I don't know, but it was thought to be auspicious grass. Now, I've told you before, just to make another irrelevancy, that this auspicious grass just is like pompous grass and it's very sharp. I don't think the sharpness is necessarily what's auspicious about it. It's auspicious grass and it just happens to have sharp edges. So, in order to make your meditations to eat out of that kind of grass, you have to be very careful how you handle the grass, otherwise you cut your hands.

[30:50]

And the word for wholesome or healthy in Buddhism comes from the name of that grass. The kusa grass becomes kusala or kushala, which means wholesome, which basically means skillful, means you can handle the grass without cutting yourself. Okay, back to the grass, yes? Yeah, I remember a line from some study somewhere that the way the patriarchs lies on the edge of the grass Yes, it does. That's for sure. And then we also make our houses out of grass. Even though they sometimes look like bricks, they're really grass. So I kind of feel like, anyway, one Zen teacher was asked, how do you practice Zen?

[31:55]

He said, attention. He said, how do you pay attention? He said, attention. And then he asked the question another way, and he said, attention. So, of course we are paying attention. But this is saying we don't pay attention as a way to point to... the really effective way to pay attention. Yes. So this is a kind of additional transmission of paying attention that we're looking at here, which is the way we spend our days, hopefully. So can we see in this story some helpful instruction about how we spend our days paying attention? Let's look to that. Yes. This is just how I'm interpreting this as I look at it, but it seems like in the case part, in the case, when Shui Shan, is that right?

[33:03]

S, I mean, X-I-U. X-I-U? Uh-huh. Xiu. Xiu. Xiu Shan? Xiu Shan. Xiu Shan says there's extensive discussion about Buddhism, that that's sort of like plowing. And when Ditsang... Is that right? Ditsang? Ditsang says, well... you know, I'm not discussing it, I'm just doing this. I'm planting rice and eating and doing these basic daily things. And the other guy, to me it sounds like a challenge and says, well, you know, what does this have to do with, what do you do, what do you do, or what do you, who says what do you do about the world? And his advice is, in response, when he says, what do you call the world, is to say, that's what I do about it, is I ask. I ask the question, what is it?

[34:06]

Which is the same as what the introduction leaves us with. It's a question instead of a debate or an extensive discussion. So it seems like what he's pointing to is Let's not debate about what we should do about the world or whether we should do this or that, but let's keep asking the question. Another case of the I'm sorry.

[35:29]

I was just gonna make one more comment the The other thing I hear reflects what you and brother David were talking about last night of how do we How do we have self-reaction in the hermit? And I really hear this particular koan addressing the question of how to be in, how to be out. The not one, not two. The question particularly, what can you do about the world? He says, what do you call the world? Like Fr. David was redefining last night. Well, for a while there's the hermitage. Let's see what we can do here. You know, planting and eating. Let's see if we can plant. Let's see if we can eat.

[36:30]

Like you were saying, people talk about taking care of the world, but the monastery has a little plot of the world. When you said a little plot of the world, I thought of a little plot here, that birth store has his temple on. As you may know, in China, the word that they use, the name for Zen monasteries is two names for Zen monasteries. One is Zen Garden and the other is Zen Forest. Do they use those in Japan? Is that true in Japan as well? It comes from China. There's, you know, Yes, Stuart.

[37:40]

Also, I hear in Dietzang's question, what do you call the world? I hear it as a kind of challenge about the reification of our conventional ideas about the world as being the real world. as if the world of practice, the world of creative imagination, or the world of just watching the shape of one's mind is less real than conventional definitions of important human interaction. There's a great cartoon, cartoon, of a man lying on a desert island under a palm tree, just totally, obviously totally abandoned, and another fellow sitting in a suit with a tie on and a desk with a pen in his hand and a clock over his head and, you know, obviously very busy at paperwork and caption is, real and wasted lives.

[38:55]

useful and wasted lives. Of course, there's no indication which is which. And in the same way, I hear Dietzahn saying, well, what are you taking for real? Yes. Well, yeah, and also the monk said, what are you going to do about the world? brings up the idea that he's over here and the world is over there. And then Dietsang says, well, what are you calling the world? So he brings up, points at this dualism. To rhapsodize on this a little bit, You know, one of our relatives, so to speak, one of our uncles is a man named Sawaki Kodo Roshi, and when he died, he was pretty famous, so when he died there was a newspaper headline, a newspaper headline for his obituary, and it said,

[40:13]

Zen Master wastes life doing Zazen. What did you say? Did you say that? That's a Kali-gira what she said. Kali-gira, she said. That respect for God is pretty good. He said, pretty good. That's right, sorry. Very good. Sawaki Kodo-roji said, you can only, you know, enter the Buddha's way if you're willing to wholeheartedly do something that's completely useless. If you can do that, then the treasure store will open up itself and you can use it at will. But it's not easy for people to wholeheartedly do something that's completely useless.

[41:20]

It doesn't mean destructive, that's a use. It doesn't mean hurting anybody. It means it doesn't hurt anybody, doesn't help anybody. It just is totally useless and you completely do it. Now, that's zazen. It doesn't mean that before you start practicing zaga you haven't made bodhisattva vow to bring benefit to all beings. You have done that before that. Your heart is to help all beings, but then your meditation practice is to throw yourself into something that's completely useless, or completely do something that's useless. That's part of what's being pointed to here when we say we don't even do We don't even do this basic Buddhist practice of paying attention to phenomena. We also don't not do it. We don't not do it. We don't not pay attention to phenomena.

[42:26]

You try that with a good Zen teacher and that won't work either. But you can do it with a bad Zen teacher, fortunately. Yes? In fact, how a monk spends his time. I say when a monk spends his time shaving his hair. Shaving his hair is the same as walking the land, going to the fields and working on the rice. That's one, world. The other one is the world of discussion. World? World. The other one is the world of discussion. Yes. What's up? In this case, in this introduction, this is the two figures in the two worlds.

[43:35]

One is these people talking around these... Did you hear me? We don't do either here. We just cough. But maybe cough is too useful, because it maybe keeps the foam off my lungs. We have a really good Zen center here.

[44:37]

We really waste our time. Thank you. Gokul is saying us. Yeah, and again, you know, if we together waste our time, we really can connect with each other and help each other beyond our idea. of helping each other. We want to help each other, of course, we don't want to be caught up by our idea of helping each other. So we have to really live a useless life and then spontaneously these helpful connections develop.

[45:38]

We let go of the ultimate and join hands. And let go. One of the close dangers joining hands with all sentient beings is lust. The next danger, the next enemy or danger, which is a little bit farther away, is depression. Depression, in other words.

[46:49]

Oh, there's so much suffering. I can't stand it. So much suffering, I can't smile. It is wrong to smile because there's so much suffering. That's too much. That's a danger. It's okay to join hands with the most suffering people and smile. Maybe not a big smile. There's something big about it. Maybe just a subtle smile. Some people say the Buddha didn't really have a huge smile. Never like with his mouth open and his teeth showing, his tongue sticking out. But he did smile. Buddha did smile. Remember when he smiled? Like he smiled when... when Indra put that grass in the ground, remember? Good old case number four.

[47:50]

More rootless grass. Yeah, more rootless grass. Okay, well... So... In the South, they have these discussions. And... That means, you know, like, extensive discussions, like they're talking more than we do about Dharma. You know, sometimes you get together and talk about Dharma. They did it a lot, maybe, and discussing and debating. And, should I read this now? Keep it that way. Keep it that way. Huh? It's like Susie. It seemed related. I just happened to have it for some reason. Oh, it's from you? It's me. Huh? Mio suggested I pass it to you.

[48:59]

One other piece of information for you before I read this message from... is... When it says the world here, it's not incorrect to interpret this world, but when he says world, it's not incorrect to interpret this as like the world outside the monastery. We call it the real world. Which some people call the real world, or everyday world, or whatever, okay? What it literally says is three worlds. They translate three worlds, Kankuri translates three worlds as the world. In Buddhism, the mundane world is called the triple world, the three worlds. There's three parts to the three worlds, I mean, the three worlds, right? One world is called the kamadhatu, K-A-M-A-D-H-A-T-U. which means the realm of sex.

[50:09]

And it means sex in the genital sex. That's one of the worlds. And in that world, it's subdivided into two parts. One part is monasteries, and the other part is outside of monasteries. Okay? One part is places where people are concentrating on meditation, and the other part is where the people who are, I guess, out in the world, okay? So, asking about the world applies to that world, but the other two worlds you're also talking about here. You should be aware that they're also talking about two other worlds which are also being asked about. The next world is called the rupadhatu, r-u-p-a, a long mark over the u, rupadhatu. That's the world where you no longer see things like men and women and Cadillacs and computers.

[51:24]

and monasteries and shopping centers. There, all that's happening is, for example, in terms of light, you just see colors. You see like blue, white, and red. You don't see the New York Rangers. You see green, but you don't see a green sweater, because a green sweater is actually a whole bunch of colors. That's the second world. You only get into that world by meditation practice, or by, yeah, you can only get there by meditation practice, I think. How's the sound? There's sound and touch, but the sounds are not like, you don't hear Beethoven or Beatles. or Jordan, or me, or horn honking, or a bell ringing, or a bird singing, you hear just basic sounds like you hear pleasant and unpleasant sounds.

[52:36]

You hear sounds made by animate and inanimate things. That's the kind of sound you hear there. And in terms of taste, you no longer taste Well, actually, even in Western analysis, you don't really taste hamburgers, right? You actually can't really taste a hamburger. The tastes you have are salty, sweet, acrid, and so on. Bitter. Sour. There's six tastes. So you just have six tastes. And smells, you don't have smells like of hamburger, of toast, of various kinds of incense, of perfume. You don't have all those names. No words? No words. No words? I'll have to think about that.

[53:41]

It dissociated some section. Dissociated sensation? I have to think about that too. Especially I have to think about whether I get into it because everybody's going to freak out when I get under one of my diversions, right? Suddenly, there we are in the vast muses of Amitabha Kosha, Chapter 2. That's great. So, uh... Don't worry. For you and yours alone. Okay, so, the third round is called Arupia Datu. which means no rupa.

[54:49]

It's a realm where you also get in there by meditation, but there's no form. There's just consciousness. There's really only four skandhas there, I mean, in terms of your experience. There's really five skandhas there, because if you look at someone who's in that realm, they're just sitting there like the normal person. except that they're in a trance, but they're just sitting there breathing and stuff. But they themselves never have as an object a color or a smell or something. Those are the three worlds. So he's not just asking about social action in this world here, he's asking about social action in these other realms where there aren't even any societies. He's saying, what are you doing in terms of your yogic activity in those realms? Because if you're down here just... In one sense, if you're in the monastery, or if you're just plowing the fields, you're not getting involved with certain societal problems.

[55:53]

But also, as a Buddhist yogi, are you getting into these higher realms of Buddhist meditation? What are you doing about that stuff? Because aren't Buddhists supposed to, you know... clarify, you're supposed to, you know, clarify certain issues in these other more subtle realms. What about that too? He's asking that question also. Okay? You see the difference? It's a really broad question when you say the three worlds. And when you see, also, when you understand the, when you understand that he's talking about these three worlds, not just the ordinary, not just the world, you know, of this planet, as we ordinarily see it, but this world or this planet looked at from these three different realms. Okay? Then when he says, what do you mean by the world, it has a little bit different meaning. Who made the world? Question? What? Yeah. Do you want to ask a question before or after this? Just because it follows up on what you're saying. In that last line, there's the what?

[56:58]

Does the Chinese have the Zemma or Shemma? Is it the how? How do you call, or is it what? Shema. The what? Yeah. Actually, it says, Shema, and then it has a character which means to make. It says, how do you make the three worlds? Or what do you make of it? Yeah. What do you make of the three worlds? What is it that you call the three worlds? Anyway, it's shama, zao, three worlds. Oh, there's more goodies coming.

[58:01]

Don't forget, we can look at the things in between the lines now. Who made the world Who made the swan and the black bear? I don't know exactly what a prayer is. I do know how to pray. Oh, excuse me. I do know how to pay attention. How to fall down into the grass. How to kneel down in the grass. How to be idle and blessed. how to stroll through the fields, which is what I have been doing all day. This is rather apropos, isn't it? Tell me, what else should I have done? Doesn't everyone die at the last and too soon? Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild

[59:07]

Precious life. Yeah, that was... Thank you. Okay. So what do you want to do? What do you want to do? Do you want to talk about the case or do you want to look at the person a bit? What? Talk about the case. Okay? Talk about the case. So he says in the south, yes. When they talk about the world, could it be seen as in the other timeska sutra that they talk about many different worlds at different scales, like in every atom could be a world?

[60:10]

You mean, when the monk says, what do you... what about the world, or what do you do about the world, but he could have had that in his mind? Is that what you're asking? Sure he could have. But if he had that in his mind, then he has, well, then the story feels a little different, doesn't it? Do you understand her question? Well, she's referring to the Avatamsaka Sutra where everything contains everything else. So, if... If he is, if this priest, this abbot is saying, I just, I'm just here planting these fields, making rice and eating it, then the monk could have been saying, when he said, what do you do about the world, he could have been saying, well, this little thing you're doing here contains the whole universe.

[61:45]

And I'm asking you this question, but really it's rhetorical, because I understand that every little thing you do contains the entire universe. But I would like you to respond to that question anyway. So the monk who's asking the question doesn't have to think, oh, you're just doing some limited thing and that doesn't relate to the world. You can go up to somebody and you can say, please show us how your sitting there on that chair is taking care of all sentient beings in ten directions. Please show us that. Or you can say, what is that sitting in the chair, what is that finding in the field have to do with saving all sentient beings in ten directions? You could have the understanding and actually the faith that it does, but you might want to hear how this person responds. And then he says, given that, he says, what do you mean by the world?

[62:57]

And you could say, well, I mean the world where what you're doing and the world where every sound I make contains the entire cosmos. You could say that. That's one scenario here. That's one. Got that one? That's fine. So then, still, I like that initial question, how do we spend our days? This is the latter part of the day, right? Here we are. The room's kind of hot. How do we spend our time here? Looking for the ox.

[64:03]

Looking for the ox? Opening a window. Opening a window. Okay. Singing village songs. Singing village songs. Drinking ambrosia. Drinking ambrosia. That's a waste of time. Watching the ox. Watching the ox. Watching the ox. Practicing watching the ox. practicing something useless like your hair's on fire. Wondering what we call the world. Yeah. Sorry.

[65:11]

So how are we doing? I don't exactly understand when you were describing the three worlds the first time, but I'm willing to ask you after class if anyone else understands. The first one means the world where you see things like, you know, red sweaters, and sometimes they say where you eat food by the mouth, by the spoonful. The next realm is more like being intravenously fed, where you're still alive, but you receive, and you don't any longer, like, see, you don't any longer put together sensory input into these images.

[66:43]

Are you talking about the second and third one? No, the first world, the one with the rupa dot, the comet dot two, Okay? That's what most people would call the world. So why were we saying that the sexual and the monastery is in the real world, or did I not understand? The name of the world, its name is Kama. It means sex. Okay? That's just the name of it. And I also mentioned that it means genital sex, because there's also sex in these other realms, but there's no gross bodies in these other realms. You don't see arms and legs and men and women in these other realms. And yet sexual activity still occurs. It can occur.

[67:43]

But the experience of the person is not of seeing people in these forms anymore. How do you know this? Can you pause the Bible? Tell me something. Sorry, it's not... It's not something... The Rupert, the Kamandatu, this world looks like most of us are seeing right now. That's the Kamandatu. Does that make sense? It looks like it doesn't. No, it does. Okay. It's the other realms that people are not so familiar with. But some people I could have experience in these other realms. But he was asking about all three realms. He was asking, what do you do about all three of these realms? He wasn't just asking, what do you do? In other words, it wasn't just a question of society in this, it wasn't just a question of how does your planting the fields apply to the rest of the Kamadhatu.

[68:57]

He was also asking about how it applies to all three of those worlds. He said three worlds. You know, there's a whole range of mundane experience. How does it apply? Is there three worlds? Yes, there's three worlds, which in Buddhist text means those three. Sometimes it means past, present, and future, but usually it means... Okay, so I don't want to get too abstract, because that's what this case is about, it's about getting really abstract and getting into extensive discussions. I want to stay over on the side of dethon. So do you people feel like, how do you feel?

[69:58]

Do you feel like you're planting fields now? Do you have a feeling for lazily watching an ox and not looking at its grass? Do you have a feeling for that? By the way, I'm not saying this excludes writing letters or doing calligraphy or talking. It's just that when you're using your pen, or when you're talking, it's in the spirit, if you're in this tradition, it's in the spirit of you're lazily watching an ox with your pen. Yes? I'm kind of confused about that. I was wondering, when it says, how can that compare to How else does it necessarily mean that, in response to that question, about a sense of discretion?

[71:06]

How can it compare? How can that compare? I think when we use that expression, we mean it to say... It's not as good as. Yeah, it's something like that. Is that what he's saying, or is he actually saying... No, he's saying it the way you're reading it. But not as a put-down. but more like, it's better for me here. You know, he's not like saying, you're out of it. He's just saying, up here, at my place, it's better for me to, where you're coming from, there's all this debate going on and all these erudite discussions, okay? But up where I live here, I don't know about you, but where I live, it's better for me just to sort of stick close to the ground. and plant fields and make rice balls and pop them in.

[72:11]

That's what's best up here where I live. I'm glad to hear about the South. I'm not putting you down, but up here that's the way I live. And then the question goes on a little further. He says, well, what do you do about the world? For example, what do you do about the fact that down south we're having these erudite discussions and debating all over the place? In other words, what would you do if you came down south? What would you do if your monks came to visit us after planting the fields with you? Would they be able to hold up if they ran into one of us guys down south? now this is China which is different from India but in India if a Buddhist monk met a non-Buddhist monk and the non-Buddhist monk challenged him to debate if he lost the debate he had to become the disciple of the other guy so you know this debating business has some edge to it

[73:20]

You sort of had to be able to, if you're in a religious practice, you sort of had to be able to stand up for yourself in debate, otherwise you had to follow around this other guy and go and cluck people all over the countryside by debating with them. That's not the only meaning here, but anyway, there's this further question, but at your question anyway, I think he's saying, here, at this place, it's better for me, I think, to practice this way. That's what he's saying. So if the debate is also something that's useless in a sense, what's the difference between that kind of uselessness and the uselessness of what he interprets, what he suggests that he interprets? It's in the attitude of the person. Because some people would say it's useful to plant fields and make rice balls. But a lot of people would say, in terms of understanding Buddha's teaching and getting to the bottom of such a profound doctrine, you probably shouldn't be wasting your time planting fields and making rice balls.

[74:33]

You should let somebody else do that. Let the women do that. Right? And we, Buddhist monks, will do this meditation practice and go cavorting in these higher realms and analyzing them, understanding them, and establish dharma. Because this is really our work. This is our specialty, right? And in India, the Buddhist monks did specialize and they didn't work for various reasons. One of them was so that you could specialize in meditation. So you could have the attitude that playing in the fields is useful, like farmers think that, and landlords think that, and governors think that. You could also, if you're a Buddhist monk, think that debating was useful for Buddhism, right?

[75:36]

It's the attitude. So, from the point of view of ordinary, from the point of view of the guy from the south, these people up in the north who are just planting the fields and shuffling around in the ground and lazily watching oxes, they're wasting their time. But down south, they could have the same attitude. They could be debating away and feel like they're doing something completely useless. I feel that that these classes, my feeling is, I try to remember the feeling that these classes are a waste of time and are useless. That's what I try to remember, and then I don't get upset. But some of you, and occasionally me, start thinking that these classes are supposed to be useful, and then people get upset. Over what? over the fact that you think they're supposed to be useful, but then you find out that they're not useful. And then in one week people find they're not useful and they're really angry at me, and the next week they think they are useful and they think I'm great.

[76:45]

And the next week they think they're not useful and I'm in trouble again, and the next week they think they're useful and they think it's great. So, you know, I try to remember that they are useless, they have no point. and to totally throw myself into them and study them, study these cases sincerely and discuss them with you. And you can look in the Chinese here to see if there is... Wholeheartedly do something useless. And I appreciate that you come and do that with me. And... But sometimes it just... You can't believe that we'd be doing that, so you start thinking it's useful, and then... Do you understand? You look like you don't. I'll think about that one day. Don't think about it. Just understand. So anyway, it looks like from the point of view of an ordinary person to have the extensive discussion... Are you there, Mike?

[77:57]

From the point of view of a farmer having extensive discussion of Buddhadharma is really stupid. From the point of view of a Buddhist monk, planting the fields is a waste of time. So it's fine to see that other people are wasting time, that's not a problem, but can you understand that what you're doing is a waste of time? And if you can understand... I guess we're using the term waste of time carefully here. To be able to do something that's useless is not a waste of time. in the bad sense of wasting time. We don't want to waste time. So we want to recognize the one who's doing something useless. Okay? That's not wasting time. So you do something useful but your addiction is useless. If you do something useful?

[79:00]

You mean something you think has some use or some purpose? It's easy for me to say yes, but I don't quite understand what you're saying. Story about my sweeping. Yes. And the wife was not busy. Yes, one monk is sweeping. Yes. Yeah, it's the same. Same story. That's what I mean was useless and useful. Useless is the same as in that story, not busy. Yes. Useless is not busy. So to recognize the one who's not busy, or to recognize the useless one, that's what's called not wasting time, in the positive sense of not wasting time. Yes? You raised your hand for the first time.

[80:05]

We've got to hear this. Oh, thank you. Oh, we had a little class in ironing dress shirts before we came in here. Ironing dress shirts? Mm-hmm. And we have a lot of comments about this class because I was a little picky about some of my procedures. And it's funny because I had a few comments about the uselessness of it, but it was enjoyable uselessness. Oh, in your class on ironing? Yeah. Oh, you had an ironing class? Yeah. Oh, great. Open enrollment, right? This place is... You can learn something here. Were there other things? Was it useful? It was uselessly useful. Very useful to me. Red. Red. Um... So you pass the days depending upon your orientation.

[81:13]

Right. So what's the orientation of these Zen people? These Zen people? Well, I hope these Zen people, but also them Zen people. Them Zen people. them Sun dynasty Zen people. It sort of seems like these two people, these two creatures have a different orientation, to me. It looks like that, but as Mariangeles says, maybe they don't. You can't be sure. The one who's asking the question, what are you doing about the world? A lot of times in Zen texts, one person is kind of like, you know, teasing, trying to tease something out of the other person. You know... He agrees with them, but he takes the devil's advocate position to draw them out. It just seems like they're nudging each other. They are. They are nudging each other. That's what practice is, is to nudge each other, to bring forth each other into the open and meet.

[82:19]

That's what they're doing. They might have different positions. It looks like they do, but they might not. We don't know what their understanding is. Who knows what it sounds like, the guy who says, it's better for me to stay here and plant. That usually sounds like he, I think it's easier to guess what he thinks. Again, he's like, you know. So tomorrow at Green Gulch, we have a planting day, right? Or something like that? We have like a weeding day. We're going to pull the roots out. We have one of these days coming up tomorrow. But the problem is most of us will think it's useful. But it's useless because you're going to have to do it again soon. Well, we've already done it. So even tomorrow we could turn that behavior, which most Buddhist monks in history would say was not what Buddhist monks should be doing, we could turn it into something useful.

[83:19]

So again, I want to bring up for our hearts and minds what is the true spirit of Zen practice. Oh, yes, somebody has come to tell us what it is. No. That's what I want to know. I want to know. We don't have much time. So what is it? What is this spirit? What is this? How do we spend our days? Yes. Yes. There's a poem from Jodi Elias, and what we've been talking about today, one line, she describes all the things she does for, you know, she exercises, she burns wood instead of issues, she composts, and the last line where the title comes from says, as if it really mattered. Yeah, right. That's good. It's like holding the grass in a way that doesn't cut yourself.

[84:27]

Yeah, it's like holding the grass in such a way it doesn't cut yourself. You have to use the grass. I think it's cutting yourself. Huh? I think it's cutting yourself. Yep, it's cutting yourself too. It isn't lazily. That word lazily. Yeah, or tired. It worries you? Yeah, I mean, that doesn't sound nice. If you're doing it, you know, as if it really mattered, that's not lazy. You're lazy. You're lazy. You do lazy as if it really mattered. Can you like doing these things? Can you like doing these things? You can like doing these things. As a matter of fact, one of the things that you can do is like things. That's one of the things you can do is like things. And then you can apply that liking to the things you're doing, too.

[85:27]

This is really, you know, open ground here they're talking about. It's really open ground. It's like... Anything can happen there. The question is, how do we spend our days on this open ground? And there's a way you can do it that's really neat, that's kind of like, just like a Buddha, and also not better than anybody else. Like the ox. What? Like the ox. Like the ox, yeah. which is like picking up the grass in such a way you don't cut yourself, and cutting yourself. Which is realizing that nothing matters, and acting like it matters to you as much as it matters to anybody. To get as involved in things as anybody does, and not to be the least bit involved.

[86:35]

And not be any better at that practice than anybody else is. Not be any better than the people when they first walk in for Zazen instruction. And also to see that other people are as good at it as you are. And also to be wrong, because they're not as good as you. Anyway. Yes. Yes. It reminds me of what Rilke said. He said, he has the crystal cup shattered even as it rained. Well, I got the secret to tell you. I used to think this wasn't a very interesting koan, but now I've changed my mind. So we end with a song. You're going to have to start making comments for everybody in these songs.

[87:42]

You need a song? You're going to have to boss me along with this. Those songs... Those songs is one song which you've almost learned already. And we're doing this over because we haven't learned it very well yet. I haven't lived very long. I haven't lived very long. I want to get free, I see fantasies, and into a make-believe. It's very clear our love is here to stay, not for a year, but ever and a day.

[89:03]

The radios and the telephone and the movies that we know may in time be passing fancies. and in time, no, no, may be passing fancies and in time may go. The radio is in telephone and the movies that we know may be passing fancies and in time may go. But, oh dear, our love is here to stay. Okay? What tone should we start in? A little lower. Now.

[90:51]

So we have one more minute. We can do Red, Red Robin. [...] Thank you. Sorry, but you don't know how to speak English, do you?

[93:09]

No, I can't. I can't. I can't. Reaching it with his heart, bending on to place. Ah. If he said it then, he would have traveled his heart, bringing his thoughts to the world. Ah. It's just waiting here. And God will be with him. is

[93:56]

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