Part of the story, I guess, the inner story of training is that sometimes a teacher or someone who really cares about you comes out with lots of energy in a kind of fierce, fiery way. And the judge of the test of the situation is whether it's helpful to you. But for me, anyway, Suzuki Roshi, his fierceness was always helpful. And sometimes I've been fierce and it's helped people, and sometimes I've been fierce and it hasn't been helpful to people. And usually when it wasn't helpful, I think I was a little off. I blinked in the middle of the fierceness. I turned away from totally being attentive to the situation. I couldn't stand the brightness of the interaction, and I flinched a little bit.

[01:03]

And the fierceness was unguided, you know, was unguided by my presence. In those cases, I sometimes regret. But when I'm totally present, the fierceness that comes in those situations, either I sense it stinks or I don't. And usually if I'm present, it's worked out. Yes? Isn't there a pre-existing relationship involved? Like if I'm shaky with another person, and he or she blasts me, then it's different than if our relationship is pretty solid, and then I get it. Yes, that's right. Yeah. So the teacher, and that's part of the teacher's risk-taking and whether there's enough stability in the relationship such that the blast can push you into a deeper understanding rather than just blow you off your feet.

[02:07]

So, this isn't exactly aggressive, I mean, great, but I remember I saw this movie called Mao to Mozart one time. It was about Isaac Stern teaching music in China and he was He was teaching, this one young man was playing the violin, and he was very technically proficient. And not only was he technically proficient, but he was proficient enough so that he could receive instruction while he was playing and keep playing. So Isaac Stern was talking to him while he was playing, you know. And the guy was just kind of like listening to him, but nothing much was happening. And Isaac Stern started kind of like, of course he's talking pretty loud because the guy's playing, right? I think it might have been just him playing the violin and nobody else playing, but he was playing. And Isaac Stern said, you know, you got to sing, you know, so he started like singing to him while he was playing, you know, singing the music. And most people that wouldn't be very, that weren't really proficient and had a lot of stability with the

[03:14]

with the violin, would probably not even have been able to continue to play with that guy, with Isaac Stern, you know, down your face, saying, sing, you know, and actually singing to him like that, but he could listen while he was doing that, and he kind of got pushed off his place and moved into this song, you know, and you could hear the music change somehow. It changed from being this rather tight, accurate thing into being this other realm, you know. But he had to have enough stability so that he could listen and then move while continuing to play. If he stopped, he could have stopped and said, okay, okay, but he kept playing, and Isaac's doing why I'm going to keep playing so you could actually hear the music change right on the spot there. So that's usually the best way, is that if while you're doing it, whatever it is, you have enough stability to get this this energy coming towards you, and then take the energy in and have it turn you into this, you know, other realm, other level of performance.

[04:25]

And again, I think, for me, that morning, sitting in a zendo, getting hit by him that way, my zazen moved into another dimension at that time. A deeper level of The importance of it was conveyed to me anyway, and I think to other people. I think the whole group just moved, grew up a little bit on that morning. You know, grew up a bit, and in some sense, you know, inherited a tradition through that. I don't know if this is beside the point, but was what made them then the fact that the person came by later and said, go back to sleep then? Is that really what the killer wants? No, I think that might have bothered him a little, but what bothered him was that people didn't just get up and go to the zendo. Like he did. He just got up and went to the zendo.

[05:30]

Basically, you know, when they hear the bell, go to the zendo. Even if somebody says, you know, go back. I mean, what if we kept telling you just, you know, if it was a mistake, go back. And I just kept telling you that. How many times would we tell you that before you would say, well, this is getting ridiculous. We never go. I mean, yeah, I don't care. I don't care if the bell's rung at the same time. This is, you know, when are we going to go to the Zendo? I'm going to go anyway, whether the bell is ringing at the right time or not. I mean, There would be some number where you would stop listening to that thing where you don't have to go. It's okay. It's okay, David. No, no, go back to bed, David. Who's saying going back to bed? Who is that? Who tells you to go back to bed? Who says so? Somebody says, oh, it's okay. Is that because you didn't want to get up in the first place? So now somebody says, okay, go back. You have to get up. No, no, you don't have to get up. No, no, you have to get up. Who's talking here?

[06:31]

What's going on that somebody can tell you to go back to bed? That's the point, right? And they'd say, well, that's just one time, you know, I got up one time, one time they went back to bed. If you did it at 10, I wouldn't do it, right? Eventually, I would say, well, I'm going anyway. But Suzuki Rishi was saying, if you get up to go to Zazen, it doesn't matter whether if somebody says go back to bed or not, just go. The bell rang. Isn't that enough? You could have gone without the bell anyway. You know, we can go on like this, but the point is, you know, what if Shakyamuni Buddha, on the way to the boat tree, somebody says, no, no, it's okay. No, really, no, no, it's all right, go back to the palace. This has been called off. You know, is somebody else running Buddhism? They say, okay, now I have time for you to practice Buddhism. No, now you don't have to. Who's telling you this? What's going on? This kind of thing, right? I think that was the point.

[07:34]

Not to say that the person who ran the wake-up ball shouldn't have gone and told people that it was early. Maybe he should have. I made a mistake, that's fine. He could have said, I made a mistake, but let's go anyway. I made a mistake, but since you're up, let's get the next period of zazen. Who knows? But regardless of what he said, what do you think? What do you think? You think, well, good, one period less zazen, great. I don't know. Anyway, Suzuki Roshi was wondering about it. And in fact, he went. This stupid fool went. He went down to the zendo. He got his robes on, went all the way down there. And isn't it funny that the teacher went to zazen and nobody else did? What's going on here? That was his question. What is going on? What are you doing? I went to the zendo. Zen master has to do Zazen, but the students don't have to. Right?

[08:36]

Something like that was, I think, running through the situation. I guess the Tinkin had woken up the Zendo too and everything going around, so the Zendo was awake. The Zendo was awake, Suzuki Roshi was awake, but the students, they get another hour to sleep. Something like that was, I think, his question. What is going through your head? Who is responsible for Buddhism? Is the teacher responsible? And you people just sort of are tagging along? Well, I'm going to die pretty soon, you know. So then what's going to happen? Then when they ring the bell, you'll go. And when they don't, you won't. And if they don't ring it, you won't go. And if they tell you to go back to bed, you'll go back to bed. Is that just like a loudspeaker kind of thing? Now stop practicing. That's what happens when the bell goes. It's the same thing. Now practice, and then the bell goes, now don't practice. Yeah, so is that what you think it is? No, it's not, but it could be the same argument. Yeah, it's the same thing. The bell goes, now practice, the bell stops, now don't. Yeah, right. It could be the same argument, except is it?

[09:39]

You get to decide. Is the bell what tells you to practice? No. Okay. Bell makes me go to Xandar. I didn't practice a scene. Okay. So any more on anger? Yes. I guess I was thinking around this issue about the person who asked about doing peace demonstrations. Yes. And it would be interesting to hear his feedback, because I was juxtaposing Suzuki Roshi had perhaps his own... feelings against the war, even when he was younger. Whatever he did about peace, his own life, in terms of his life and teaching. And when I heard that story, I didn't hear it so much as anger as actually teaching. I realized my story, transposing it, almost like that living colon of somebody saying, well, what do you think?

[10:40]

And having someone come up and actually hitting on you saying, well, what do you think? It's kind of the same thing. You're asking me what to do. you know, what do you think about such a thing or should be done? Uh-huh, right. So in some ways it... I mean, it didn't quite have an angry twist, but I could see how it could be interpreted. So I'm thinking of his teaching, an interesting twist. I mean, I don't know if he had a physical teaching in that kind of a way that wasn't necessarily words. Well, I'm not gonna, you know, like make a case for it to being angry. Because basically, to me, generally speaking, towards the end of his life, the last few years of his life when I knew him, from my point of view, Suzuki Roshi was pretty much like plain old teaching all the time. So, if somebody said, well, tell me about Suzuki Roshi being angry, well, then I'm telling you about angry Suzuki Roshi teaching.

[11:45]

So, to me, his anger was teaching. I didn't see him not teaching when he was angry. Even the stories, I trust him at that point in his life. And this same guy said to Suzuki Roshi one time, the same guy who asked him about the peace demonstration said to Suzuki Roshi, if I'm downtown and I'm in some situation and I don't know what to do, should I think, what was Suzuki Roshi doing in this situation? And Suzuki Rishi said, if I'm downtown and I'm in some situation, should I think, what would Suzuki Rishi do in this situation? Do you think when I walk around, do I say, well, what would Rev. Anderson do in a situation like this? I don't do that, actually. I also don't think now what would Suzuki Roshi do or what would Shakyamuni do in situations. I don't think of that kind of stuff. What I think of is, you know, what is the situation?

[12:55]

What's going on? That's the kind of thing I think about, rather than what would somebody else do who's not me, including me, or what I'd do who's not me, you know, this guy, this theoretical person that I am. I don't think of that either. So, I'm just saying, you know, if somebody said, did Siddhartha get angry? Well, I think he could manifest that form. It seems like he did. It looked like that. He could say, well, he wasn't really and try to say, but I think that a bodhisattva can use any form, any appearance that will help people. And sometimes rage and fierceness is very helpful because some people will not snap out of it unless there's like fire in their face. And that's what it takes to wake them up. And there are stories where that is helpful. The wrathful deities, you know, in Buddhism, those wrathful deities are the helpful ones. The peaceful deities, I mean, they're sweet and everything, but they don't do anything for you. What can they do?

[13:55]

They basically say, you know, you're doing fine, kid. The wrathful deities say, come on, wake up, what do you, you know, if you need that. They're not always there, but... And you're not supposed to fight back with those things. You're supposed to say, thank you. Now, what's this about? How come you're visiting me here today? Well, think about it. Okay? So, I thought I might just say a little bit about some of my early time with Suzuki Reshi. After I met him there, you know, and he bowed to me, I didn't know what was happening, I felt like, to some extent, he was a little bit ignoring me. But I felt okay about it because I heard a story from another, from a senior student, that Suzuki Roshi did the same to him. And now I feel like that that was good that he just left me alone, didn't give me a lot of attention.

[15:04]

And I decided around that time, I adopted this practice, which I called post-practice, which I made myself into a piece of furniture in his life. The zendo was on the second floor of the temple, and there was a long staircase At the bottom of the staircase there was a post on the balustrade. On the base of the balustrade there was a post, and I decided to be like that post, just something at the bottom of the stairs, so to speak. that when he came down the stairs, he put his hand on that post when he turned the corner. So I just made myself, I just sat in the same place every day, in the zendos, so that when he walked around, I would just be at the same place. He would get used to me, knowing that I was there, and I would just be there. I wasn't like lurking there, you know. get some attention I was just there sitting Zazen in the same place every day and I was there for just these various events I was just always there I was there so he gradually he learned that I was just part of the landscape of his life so if he wanted to talk to me or use me for anything I was there so I just installed myself and I knew he would eventually have to deal with me even if he didn't pay me much attention at that time I would just be there and that was fine with me

[16:32]

I wasn't expecting anything from him. But then at a certain point, you know, one time during a ceremony, he just suddenly called me out of the group and had me come up to the altar and perform a ceremony. Not real complicated, but, you know. But I knew how to do it because I was there every day. I was there and I was watching, so I knew how to do it because I was always there. And I watched it many, many times. So he could just say, come up. and have me do it and I just, with no training I could do it because I was there watching every day and he knew it so I was like just a part of the equipment to just turn it on and do this thing so he learned that I was just there and if he wanted me to do something he was calling me and he knew that I would be able to do various things because I was there that was all there was to it and gradually he would utilize me for these various services and to me it was It didn't matter to me what it was, like I said the other night, whether if he was standing on his head, if the practice was head standing instead of cross-legged sitting, that would have been fine with me too.

[17:42]

So, for example, if he needed TV repair, he would call me. And I would come in and I would repair his TV. One time I plugged it in. Another time I connected the aerial. I had to go on the roof to connect it, but I connected it on the roof. So, you know, he learned that basically I could do pretty much anything in the world. I could change light bulbs. I could wash windows. I could drive. But the point was, I was always there to give it a try, whatever it was. Very simple. I told this story.

[18:56]

This story's in a book, actually. Some of you may have read this story. One time, I think it was my first or second doksan with him, I went to see him, and my legs were hurting a lot. But I went in and sat in full lotus to have doksan with him, and my legs were hurting a lot. Sort of right away they were hurting. And so he talked a little while with me. I don't know how long, but a little while. And he said, like, oh, excuse me. You know, like he'd forgotten something and he left the room. And this room was like right down the bottom of the stairs I told you about. So he went around up the stairs. I heard him go up the stairs. And then I heard him walking down the hall from the stairs. And I heard him open the door to his office and go in his office and close the door. And I heard him. pattering around in his office for a little while and then I heard him going to the Zendo and then I heard noon service start and then they're chanting and then it ended and then I heard you know signals lunch I suddenly had lunch chanting munch munch munch you know

[20:23]

Then lunch ended, and then I heard lunch end, and I heard his door open, and he went back in his office, you know, and then I heard all the people going downstairs on the break, you know. And then after that was all over, I heard his door open again and heard him down the stairs. So I was listening to all that, and while I was sitting there, my legs were hurting, right? This is a pretty long time, right? I was sitting there, then he left, and then it was service, and then lunch, and then break, and then comes down. So I was sitting there in the pain, but then while I was sitting there, this funny thing happened. The pain went away. I don't know where it went, but it went away. I mean, it sort of went away. I mean, it went away, basically. I mean, there was still some sensation there. But the pain was basically gone. It had moved into some other realm. I don't know what it was, but it wasn't bothering me. I was just sitting there. And I was thinking, wow, this is quite a lesson he's teaching me. I don't know what it was, but it's like pain isn't really pain or I don't know what.

[21:27]

So then he comes in and I thought he was going to kind of say, well, did you get it? Do you understand? But he opened the door and when he saw me, he really looked like he had forgotten that I was this. I think he really did forget. It wasn't kind of like some lesson that he was giving me, exactly. So he said, oh, whoa. So then he sat down, and we had to continue our conversation for a while, and the pain also was, you know, still stayed gone. And we concluded the doxan, I left, and that was that. And then I went back to sit after lunch, and as soon as I sat down, I started hurting again. But anyway... As I said when I wrote this little thing for this book, I said, my understanding of pain changed after that. Like, you know, his understanding of food changed after he ate that daikon. I don't know exactly what it changed to.

[22:31]

I could sort of make up some story, but basically I knew pain wasn't what I thought it was before. It was something more mysterious than that. And he taught me that without intending to teach me, but he taught me something. I'm still sort of, you know, mystified by the whole thing now. And that helped me along my little path. Another thing he did around that time, I went to Doksan another time and I told him, that I said, if I sit in half lotus, I can be pretty calm and I can stay focused on my breathing. But if I sit in full lotus, it's so painful that I'm just like screaming inside and I can't concentrate on my breathing at all. So what should I do? And he said, why don't you sit in full lotus? So that's what he told me.

[23:32]

That isn't necessarily what he would have told you or somebody else, but that's what he told me. Just that I tell you about that. I would not say that to you. So you want to have a little tea break? Okay, let's have some teas. It sounds like I was very wise. It sounds like I was very wise as a student to trust me more that he was what he was.

[24:34]

That's the worst. Did most people say that? Again, you know, I wasn't doing any extensive research in the surveys, but I felt so good. I did some... I looked at the North. I just started to notebook him. I couldn't understand why some other people who he cared about didn't do the body work and stuff. I couldn't understand how he could pass it to a lot of people. Because I know he really appreciated some other people and wanted to give him a lot of attention to taking him up on it. I couldn't understand how he could pass it to a lot of people.

[25:37]

Of course, now all these things, And it was a bit different thing here. So in those days, it was kind of better. There wasn't things yet. He's built it just about music. So, cheers. Just on the urge that people start coming up and they would be inundated with that kind of student. But I think a lot of people can use. Did what he was going to say that they're expecting him? Yeah. And I think that you know they like it as much. It wasn't necessarily what they expected, but the whole thing was. I was like that one, so. Yeah, it's true. It's kind of moving. Did Suzuki Rosa sit a lot for himself?

[26:39]

Did he spend a lot in his current city with you? Uh... During such age, he would sit quite a bit with her. He wasn't by his endo for a real lot. He actually seemed to have really liked him. He could do well with it. Are they told that his teachers really appreciate his testimony at the first point?

[27:42]

I don't know. I don't know if he gave such scenes what he's had a lot. I don't know. I think he gave specials. He was the kind of priest that trained a lot of priests. So he'd give sessions to a lot of priests in the country, because some lay people. But he was mostly a teacher of priests. I think when he had those teaching sessions, he would give a lot of talks. I don't know how much, but yeah, I mean, it's hard. So I really don't know what he's playing, to see what kind of schedule he was, what his daily schedule was like otherwise, I don't know. He said anyway, all this study was just all about dosing.

[28:53]

Just follow the one. You laugh at the book. How much do you have to practice dosing? They nailed their sister's badge. They have sister's badge. They have sister's badge, [...] sister's badge. John asked a question about pain, but we didn't know whether I should have talked to him personally.

[30:00]

Does anybody else have any interest in the question? Does anybody else have pain? What's your question? Well, I guess it probably has many parts, but two that I can think of. The one is... how to just be present with it and then how to perhaps know if one is causing real physical harm in the process of sitting. Especially my legs. My back doesn't hurt so much. Well, I would say, just generally speaking, that if you have any pain and you're not sure if it's actually causing damage and harming your body, if you're not sure, I would say immediately, right away, consult with a teacher about it.

[31:13]

Tell the teacher what the problem is and see if the teacher thinks it's dangerous or normal. if that's possible. Do it as soon as possible. And then a teacher may say, oh yeah, that's perfectly normal, no problem. Or a teacher may say, well, that's a problem, so let's make a change in the way you're sitting. So there's some pains which I know are not a problem. For example, a pain at the interface between my butt and the cushion. Pain there is not a problem. almost ever, unless you sit for many, many, many hours without moving, and then you can get ulcers. You know, you can actually, the skin can break down. It's possible. It's a really long time without moving. Like, get bed sores, basically, on your butt. Skin can break down. And if that's happening, then, you know, if you see the skin's breaking down, there should be some change made. Maybe. You have to really sit a long time before that happens.

[32:16]

So that pain's not a problem. The pain, also, I sometimes have pain On the top of my feet, where they touch the thigh, see right there? Like right there? That sometimes burns. I've never had any problem with that ever, other than the pain. So as soon as I cross my legs, it's a problem. I never heard of anybody having a problem, but that's one I've learned is not a problem, but it really does hurt. after long sittings, it really burns. Sometimes the top of the thigh burns too. This particular interface hasn't been a problem for me, but it does hurt. Certain kinds of knee pain also are not a problem, I've learned, not a problem. Other kinds of knee pain, if I'm not familiar with them, I will quickly do some investigation and try to find out, make sure. I walk particularly to see if they swell. If they swell, I take a break.

[33:18]

I know what my knees look like. I look at my knees, feel my knees, keep track of my knees on a regular basis. So if they change a little bit, I notice it fairly soon. My knees, if they swell a little tiny bit, I would notice it. I could tell. So you should know what your knees look like under normal circumstances so that if they change, you have some signs, you know, some places where you know it, you can see if you have a sharp way to discriminate. So if the swelling starts to happen, you can spot it. That's a dangerous sign. Numbness. Certain kinds of numbness are not a problem. Other kinds of numbness are a problem. So the kind of numbness that comes back right away In other words, that as soon as you uncross your legs, it goes away, like in minutes, a few minutes. That generally is almost never a problem. But if it takes more than five minutes, 10, 15 minutes to come back, then it's probably something of a problem, again, if you just talk to a teacher, numbness.

[34:25]

You shouldn't try to walk when your legs are numb. Then you can sprain your ankle or fall down if you try to walk when your feet are asleep or your legs are asleep. Generally speaking, if you get really good, you can walk with sleepy legs, but until you know how to do that, just let the feeling come back beforehand. Pain in the top of the foot, not from pressure here, but from nerves coming down from here is probably sciatica. And pain in the calf, pain in the thigh, those kinds of pains, like after you're done sitting, might be sciatica, so you should also check them. I think most people should be doing stretching exercises, various kinds of stretching exercises, to keep your legs loose. Loose legs are more flexible and safer. You want to have hamstrings and adductors. These adductors and hamstrings, having them loose protects your knees.

[35:26]

Having your quadriceps strong protects your knees. Stretching the hips, the adductors, the buttocks, and the hamstrings are all good things for sitters to do. Pain in the hip joint. Pain in the hip joint? I guess that would be something you have to talk in detail about. Sometimes it's because you're sitting off. Sometimes it's a pain that, you know, from just slightly, you know, your posture's pretty good, but, you know, it's not just quite right, and it's going to take you a while to find it, and some pain due to it. So, I guess what the teacher can do is look and say, well, you know, looks fine. So, probably, you're not too far from finding the posture which will work for you, or it looks funny, and here's what should be done. And you may not be able to do what needs to be done, in which case you're going to have to, you know,

[36:33]

They figure out how to get there eventually. Okay. Any other questions about it? Oh, how to be with it. Basically, the way you be with it is good old uprightness. Don't stick your head in the pain. Don't shrink away from the pain. Try to get close to the pain and learn about it. And respect the pain. Don't... there's some reason there's some reason why you have pain what is the reason study it until you find out and sometimes you never find out it just goes away sometimes you do find out oftentimes you put your body on the line so to speak with the pain and your body and you search for the upright response to the pain and when you find the upright response to the pain the pain goes away because that's what the pain is often trying to do is trying to guide your body into a more upright posture you're sitting in some inefficient way overworking some part of your body which over time accumulates into tension and so on so sometimes you have to sit for a long time for your body to find the way to let go of this inefficient way of sitting most people who sit a lot and in pain my experience is they usually their bodies usually figure out what to do

[38:04]

That's usually the case. People who sit a lot and who have problems but don't face the pain, they don't usually progress. Like they take painkillers and stuff like that. Then their body doesn't know what to do with the information. And they can get worse and worse in their posture. My experience is most people at the beginning of sesheen, I should say at the end of sesheen, are very different from the way they are at the beginning. they're much softer, they're sitting, you know, generally speaking, sitting up straighter, and even if they're not, they can respond to instruction at the end of session, whereas at the beginning of session, sometimes people are sitting with a curved back, and if I suggest they bring their spine deeper into their body or something, they just like, kind of like, no way, you know, this is not going to be possible, forget it, you know, their back says, you know, Hello? Hello? No, no. Forget it.

[39:09]

But by the end of session, it's kind of like... It moves, you know? It can move. It's kind of like... The beginning of session is kind of like, I got some pain I don't want anymore. This is bad enough. Don't ask me to do that. At the end of session, I got pain. You want some more pain? Oh, well, okay. I'll give it a try. Oh, wow. That, you know, that sometimes happens. It's happened. Just like, beep, it's the end of the person's problem for life. That's happened, you know, just like, beep. The whole thing is, the person's had a problem for a year, just slight change at the end of Sashin, towards the end of Sashin, and it's all fixed, you know, because they finally, it's like they're not resistant to experiencing a little difficulty, so I just suggest a slight change in their posture, they move with it, and it just solves the whole problem. At the beginning of the session, they can't do it. It's like they're still guarding, you know. But that by doing that hour after hour, guarding, guarding, guarding, you realize this is not really that helpful, this guarding thing.

[40:13]

Maybe I should try something a little different. So generally speaking, people who sit a lot and with their pain, The body learns and makes some nice adjustments and they sit straighter and straighter up to a point. Then there's the other curve of growing old so that somehow you can't just get straighter and straighter forever. So sometimes even Suzuki Roshi said towards the end of his life, now I'm getting old, I can't sit up straight anymore. He was pretty straight though, even towards the very end when he was sitting. But he said, but I can still try. And he did. Tried until it was just, he was just too much pain. Too weak. One thing I wanted to mention about him was that, oh, one time I said to him, in one of my first talks I went to, I was sitting, I tried to sit through his whole talk without moving, because he gave some long talks, longer than I do, which is a comfort to me.

[41:35]

Hour and 45 minute talks, hour and a half talks. And I tried to sit through them, and during one of those talks I said to him, is the Zen master's suffering the same as the... I don't know if I said, is it the same? And he said, yes. Is the Zen master's suffering the same as the students? Or how does the Zen master's suffering relate to the students' suffering? And he said, it's the same. And that's the answer I wanted. Yes? I want to know what happened after you asked him about how much you were in full letters and then I want to know what happened after that. I lived happily ever after. Do you always sit full letters?

[42:41]

During regular Zazen periods? I don't always sit full lotus during meals, because you're not supposed to, actually, but I sometimes do anyway. But during regular zazen, I sit full lotus, yeah. What about that fiery, excruciating pain affecting being able to concentrate on your being? Did that go away? Yeah. Well, you know, it comes back sometimes, like I said. Sometimes, particularly, burning my feet and my butt. My knee pain... is no longer usually that fiery. I found ways... My knees are happier sitting this way than almost any other way. I've gone into sessions with knee problems and sit in full lotus properly for seven days, and when I come up, they're fine. If you sit in full lotus properly, it's good for your knees. And not just sit in it, but get into it and get out of it properly. It's good for your knees.

[43:44]

So... And if the burning pain comes up now, I often, I think I've learned, I learned how, now I've learned how to get into the center of the pain. So that I basically, if there's pain, I try to just find the center of it. In time and space, I try to get to the center of it. And I usually can find a place in the middle of the pain where there's kind of a cool spot. It's kind of like Bodhisattva Country Globe in the middle of the pain. And if I might ask, how do you keep from popping out of that center place? Well, I do pop out sometimes, but when I pop out, it gets, then the flame, it gets really much more painful. Right. And that shows me to go back. When you're in a lot of pain, and you think a little, if you're in a lot of pain, you think, well, what's this going to be like in two seconds, or a minute from now? Then it goes... not to mention like an hour, or when's a bell going to ring?

[44:47]

If you're in a lot of pain, and you're in the center of it, and you find that place in the center of it, and then you think, when's a bell going to ring? If you stay right in the center, in the present, you can handle anything. But if it's really strong, and you lean a little bit into the future, or a little bit into the past, or a little bit into this, or a little bit of that, then it flares up and you freak out. there you can go back as it sometimes helps you find that spot which is called the present of the pain so I don't know exactly how my pain relates to the pain I used to have it's hard to say whether it's how different it is I don't know I can't you know I can't assess it very well. I have a feeling, though, if I was plunked down into my body experience that I have now, that if that guy back years ago was plunked down into here now, I think he would freak out.

[45:58]

I think he wouldn't be able to handle it. I think. I think he would find it very painful. But just because he wasn't used to it. But I don't know for sure. Yes. Does this mean that in our practice we put a high value on experiencing a lot of pain? Or if we're not experiencing a lot of pain, does that mean we don't have as much opportunity? I would say that we put a high value on experiencing what's happening. Very high value on experiencing what's happening. It isn't like we should pump up the pain. I basically feel that pain is, at all times, unlimited. But we, you know, we... There's an unlimited amount of pain available to us at all times. And just the question of how much you can open up to. But you should... But if you're used after a lot... Yes.

[46:59]

Yes. What about that? Then... That doesn't mean you're... You can find other kinds of pain. Speaking from my own experience, I agree there's plenty of pain there. Yes. But I was starting to feel a little nervous that I don't experience huge amounts of physical pain, and I don't really want to. And I was starting to think that maybe I should... Yeah. I had that experience one time myself, too, and I went to Suzuka Roshi and I said... because I was really having a hard time. After this time I was talking about, you know, with the screaming legs and couldn't concentrate, then I went to Tassajara, and after I was at Tassajara for a while, I went to see him and I said, you know, I'm getting worried. It's kind of easy now. I don't have that problem anymore. And he said, well, sometimes practice may be easy for you. It's okay. It's not easy for me, but it's not so hard on my knees. Well, even if it gets easy, that might be all right for a while.

[48:03]

Easy is a certain kind of hard, as you say. Then you start thinking, well, maybe I'm... But actually, he said, no, it's okay. You can have easy time for a while. And then I got some other difficulty later. Rather soon after that. Let's see. There is Adam. Was it Martin? Do you have your hand? No. Adam? Yes? Adam, Renee, Elmer... Brooks. Adding to what you were saying earlier, I heard one meditation teacher who said suffering is pain times resistance. Uh-huh. I mean, I've heard there's a Zen practice of showering in cold water or in mountain retreats in cold water on the back. Yeah. Just as a way of fully being with the cold water. I try to do that. Yeah, I go swimming in the bay. Very helpful. Helmut? I was wondering what preparation you can make when you know the pain is coming.

[49:09]

Like the other day I was in a doctor's office and the nurse said I'll be back a couple minutes for a test shot and then a couple weeks ago I was in the dentist's area with a small cavity and he said we won't do the anesthetic. I don't know what I did, but when it came time to do tetanus shots, he had to shake my arm and loosen me up. Oh, because you got tense? You got tense? I got tense, yeah. But I knew I was getting tense. I knew that was pretty much the worst thing I could do. But my mind was the problem. Well, I just do this simple, pretty simple thing. The way I prepare for pain that's coming, and it is coming, is I try to spend as much time as I can in the present. That's the place I try to be, and that's what I feel is, that's where I'm going to hopefully receive the pain that's coming to me.

[50:15]

Watch your breath, maybe, something like that. That's fine. Watch your breath. Whatever you can do to be present, be there. It's the best place to receive your next dose of The big P. Whatever comes. Whatever comes, stuff's coming, and a lot of it's going to be kind of difficult, so let's settle into the present. Get down here in the abdomen. A good place to receive it is down here. Good place to be here and be settled. Settle into your abdomen, lower back, and get ready for whatever. Try to be present physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, in the present, in the place here, right in this body. That's preparation for everything. So simple. And so reasonable, too, isn't it?

[51:20]

It doesn't seem reasonable? Rather than preparing by being someplace else. Brooks? I was wondering... trying to get a picture of what it was like for you to practice with this man and with your being his student. Well, I sense that he had a very powerful presence and that that must have made an impression of people who were around him. And I'm wondering if you detected that impression in ways that surprised you at times, finding yourself imitating things that you had watched him do. Do you see what I'm getting at? Um, this imitation thing? Uh, I didn't do that too much, imitating him, but some people did. When I first came to Zen Center, there was all these people going around talking this kind of pigeon English.

[52:23]

LAUGHTER It was funny, you know. All these people, you know, going, I can't, but it was, they were talking like Suzuki Roshi. I never got into that, I don't think. Too much. But I, still when I pick up a teacup or something like that, or open a door, or move a chair, or pick up a stick, or cross my legs, or bow, I often feel like it's his hands. I'm not imitating him, because I'm not like him, you know? But I feel like he's in my hands when I do these things. Because when I saw him do those things, I thought it was so beautiful, I tried to take care of these things. When I picked things up and set them down, I tried, I don't try to do it like him, but I often, When I do it the way I want to, I feel like he's there, too. And not just him, but some other Zen teachers, too.

[53:27]

I feel that they're in my hands when I'm doing things the way... And not just Zen teachers, too, but a lot of other people are there, too. But he's there with me at that time. Towards the end, who else? Renee? Did you want to continue with this? Did I answer your question pretty much? Thank you very much. Yeah, so I wouldn't... I was definitely trying to be like Suzuki Roshi. I wanted to be like Suzuki Roshi, but I didn't exactly copy him. I'm more like just sort of like, like I say, I was kind of like there, but I wasn't exactly copying him, but I did want to be like him. I didn't want to be him, no. I really didn't want to be him, but I thought he was really setting a good example of how I could be in my own way. And one time I said to him, I said, maybe I'm getting too Japanese. He said, don't worry. You're not Japanese. You're American. Some people didn't like me because they thought I was getting too Japanese.

[54:30]

But he assured me not to worry about it too much. Renee? I have a problem with the question, for example, if I'm experiencing something and someone says to me, what's that about? Sometimes it feels very difficult for me to identify what that's about. And when I try to really look at it, sometimes I can't come up with what it's about. And then I don't know what to do when I can't come up with an answer to it. I do quite understand what you're saying. You're talking about pain? Or what? Yeah. Like physical pain. You have some pain, some kind of pain, some emotional pain? Emotional pain. Yes. And then what happens? Someone will say, what's that about? Well, you tell somebody you have some emotional pain? Right. And they say, what's it about? Right. Do you have any now? Right this minute? Yeah. Yeah. So you want to tell me about it?

[55:32]

No. Oh, well. Okay, all right. I'm having a problem sleeping. Yes. And so I went to someone here who I really like and respect, and she always says to me, what's this about? What do you think this is about? Oh, I see what it's about. Like, what's the pain about something else, maybe? What's not sleeping about? Right, right. What's the meaning of it or something? Well, I don't know what she's asking. Oh, well, why don't you go ask her? What is it about? Ask her what it's about. But you said the same thing when you were talking today. When you were speaking, you said sometimes you have to look at what something's about. And I'm saying that sometimes you try to look at what something's about and you can't come up with the answer to it. But looking at what something's about, not necessarily like to figure out what it's about, like you come up to an answer. It's more like an orientation is helpful. You're like studying. Yeah. Okay. Right. Not so much study to figure out, but study in order to have the orientation of study.

[56:39]

Because that's the upright, that might be the word which tips you off to the upright relationship to this phenomenon. So if you can be upright with this phenomenon of having trouble sleeping, maybe the sleeping will tell you its secret. Okay. Alston? I was wondering, in this realm of pain, at the San Quentin visual, was part of your experience pain there, and so can you talk about it? The last one? Yes. So we went to San Quentin, and... and there was, I don't know how many of us, not too many, 50? Something like that? 50 people standing there in the rain, under these umbrellas and stuff, and we were like, we chanted some, and then we were like standing in the rain, just getting soaked, you know, and the wind was blowing, and the ducks were quacking, and... I guess my feeling was...

[57:54]

I guess my feeling was that it was that we were just there you know basically that's because my primary feeling is we were there we were there and we were together and we were we were all saying to each other I'm here you're here I'm here with you you're here with me we're together we're doing this together we care about something I think we care about life. Life's very important to us. We're alive. We care about our life. We care about each other's life. We care about everybody's life. That's kind of where we're at. Something about that. And we don't exactly know what this, what us being here together, what exactly what that's about beyond that. But it seems like this is a good thing to do, to go out of our way, to come and say, we care about life. We really care about life and we hope, we want to protect all forms of it.

[59:08]

And we want to be friendly to all forms of it. And we hope that this friendliness towards all forms of it will lead to great happiness for all forms of it and enlightenment for all forms of it. That was kind of the feeling I had. And in that silence in the rain. then maybe my mind occasionally veered off slightly in the direction of, you know, what effect could this possibly have? But not too much. Not mine, anyway. If it did, I probably might have thought, well, maybe it'll have not much effect. Or maybe it'll have a little effect. Or maybe we'll get on TV or something. I don't know. Anyway, maybe there'll be some effect. But I wasn't really concentrating on that. I was concentrating. Mostly I was concentrating on just looking at the people get wet. and watching their robes and stuff get shinier and shinier, and feeling my robes get wetter and wetter, but feeling good and warm, actually, and present. And as I said to some people here, when they broke up, someone said during the talk, during the time, she said something about the futility of what we're doing, and afterwards she said to me, thanks for coming,

[60:22]

And it seems futile, but it still feels good that we did this somehow, even though it's kind of futile. And I still think it really encourages people on death row to know that we're here, even though it's futile in terms of stopping all this violence. But I just somehow, right around that time, I just got this big feeling of just as my love came from, I don't know where it came from. It didn't exactly come from me. It didn't exactly come from the other people. It didn't exactly come from the earth. I don't know where it came from, but there was kind of like love everywhere. Just tremendous feeling of love that was generated. And I don't know what happened to that love or where it went or where it is now. But that's, I guess, when I left the scene, that's what I thought. Just great love was generated in this kind of mysterious way that we weren't exactly trying to generate the love, but it got generated by us just standing there together in the rain. So I didn't feel pain, actually. I mean, I felt pain, but I felt more positive, mostly positive energy and a sense of presence and integrity and courage and willingness to look weak and small, I guess.

[61:33]

You know, willingness to be on the side. Not exactly willingness to be the underdog or something, because we could be the overdog, too, but it just turns out that we're just a little group. And the people drove by, they honked their horns. I didn't know what the honking meant. I don't know if they were teasing us or congratulating us or what. I didn't really care. I just thought, well, this is us. That's all we know. This is a little theater group here doing our thing. And like I say, I think the most important thing is that we generated love. And... And we didn't do it on purpose exactly. Maybe we were hoping for it, but we didn't know how to make it happen. But it did. For me, I think that's how I felt. Did other people feel that way? It was a great way to start the practice period. So it wasn't real, we weren't real powerful, you know.

[62:39]

We didn't have a lot of power, but somehow that was not the point. I mean, it could have been the point if we had 5,000 people, then it would have felt powerful. But I don't know if it would have generated as much love. I don't know. Not to say it shouldn't have 5,000 people there too. That'd be okay, but it might not have been as good. I don't know. It might have just been a big power struggle. $5,000 in this, $10,000 in that, $20,000, you know. Who's got the most? You know, I don't know. Is that really what it's about? Some places that's what it's about, but that wasn't where it was that day. It was definitely not about us being powerful. But it was nice that there was enough people there so we, you know, had a little bit of a windbreak. One of the things that I wanted to mention about Suzuki Roshi, which I think is very important, is that When he prepared for his talks, when he gave talks, he prepared as much for one person.

[63:45]

Sometimes, you know, Suzuki Roshi would give a talk. Can you imagine in that big theater, that big synagogue, he'd give a talk? There he would be, little Zen master Suzuki Roshi, and there would be one person there. Can you believe that? Of course, like I said, if he was alive now, if he gave a talk, it would be like thousands of people would be there, probably. But sometimes when he was first giving his talks, he would show up there and there would be like one person. Were you there with that one person? Well, I was never that one person for a talk, but I was there one time when there was just him and me at Zazen. One evening at Zazen. And there was kind of like a special presentation, a special program at Grace Cathedral. which some people at Zen Center organized, and almost everybody went to that. But Suzuki Rishi didn't go, and I didn't go. It was like during the evening zazen. So he had evening zazen, and I went, and it was just him and me. And he was a little, little bit, he was a little bit, he felt a little bad to be there all along with just me.

[64:53]

But anyway, that was a very sweet moment for me to be there with him in that nice little temple, just the two of us. Again, feeling kind of a little bit irrelevant, you know, like the two fools or whatever. The two stooges. Anyway, that was one time, but he didn't give me a talk. He said, would you give me a talk now? One time he did give me a talk, but that was, you know, he said, I want you to come to my room, and he sat me down and gave me a talk, gave me a lecture. He said that the lectures he gives sometimes are kind of at a certain level, but he wanted to give me special advanced instruction on the sando kai. So I said, oh, good, okay, here goes. And I couldn't stay awake. And I said, oh, this is terrible. I hear he's giving me this special instruction on the sando kai. I can't pay attention. It's better than a big group.

[66:00]

But anyway, he had the same preparation for one or a hundred. I thought that was great that he did that. He didn't know how many people were coming, but sometimes he had a sense that he didn't prepare more when the group got bigger and bigger. Generally speaking, he taught me in an indirect way. Like when he ordained me as a priest, he said, You're getting ordained now and you haven't been to Zen Center very long. You're getting ordained ahead of certain people who are more senior than you. But you won't be arrogant, I'm sure. And I thought, now how come he said that? I mean, could this be as obvious as it seems?

[67:09]

Is he saying what I think he's saying? He's like so obvious that could he be that obvious, right? Yes, I guess he could. And another time, he called me to his room, or I don't know if he called me to his room, but I think he kind of called me to his room. He took out a piece of paper, took out an envelope, a used envelope that said Reverend Suzuki on it. I still have that envelope. little envelope, and he took a pencil and wrote, I think, five vertical lines, five vertical arrows on the envelope, and one of the arrows was sticking up higher than the rest of the arrows. Pointing to the one tall one, he said, we don't have this one. In other words, you don't have, like, in the various aspects of your practice, you know, like, you know, generosity and concentration and patience and conscientiousness and wisdom and compassion and, you know, diligence and mindfulness and blah, blah, blah and all these different aspects.

[68:24]

You don't have like one of them that's way up ahead of the rest of them. Like you're super good at chanting or super good at sitting, super good at bowing, super good at studying, super good at work, you know. You don't have one thing that sticks out ahead of the rest. It doesn't mean you have to pound that one down. But just leave it alone and bring the rest of them up even with it. And then he wrote a Chinese character, something that he wanted, a monastic rule. And he said, I don't want to tell you to do this one. I said, but you'd like me to? And he said, mm-hmm. Anyway, it was something I wasn't working on. He wanted me to work on it. One time, one of our best workers, and he's still a great worker, said to Suzuki Roshi, shortly after he opened Tassajara, he said, if you're working with someone and they're working slower than you, should you tell them to rush to speed up, or what should you do with them?

[69:29]

And Suzuki Roshi said, you should slow down. Now again, that doesn't apply to everybody. That was just that one case. One time at Tassajara... Many of you have heard this story, too. He went swimming at Tassajara, at the Narrows, which is a deep swimming hole in the Tassajara Creek, where you can actually go swimming there. Most of the time, I think it's about maybe 16 feet deep, I would say, 15, 16 feet deep at the deepest part. So he went swimming there. But he didn't know how to swim. So he sunk under the water. And he said he went down under the water and he saw many beautiful ladies' legs.

[70:36]

He said, but I wasn't worried because I knew that there were many good swimmers there and they would come and help me. But still, he was a little embarrassed and he felt that he wouldn't have done that, he wouldn't have jumped in like that if he was really serious about his practice. So after that he realized he had to be more serious. And... So I wanted to say that then afterwards at dinner, we had dinner with him after he gave that talk in the evening, and someone said, Roshi, you said that after that time you almost drowned, that you really got serious and you really started practicing hard. He said, yeah. He said, but weren't you practicing hard before that? He said, yes, but then I really started to practice seriously. So he was, like I say, he was kind of serious.

[71:42]

But also Suzuki Roshi was always laughing. Not always, but he laughed a lot. Especially when he was giving talks, he laughed. A lot of jokes came to him while he was giving talks. And he's kind of, quite often, quite had a good sense of humor and joyful and laughing. And he said, one of his most important quotes is, what we're doing is far too important to be taken seriously or to be taken too seriously. So he was both very serious and wanted to even be more serious. At the same time, he didn't want to be too serious. He wanted to be more serious but not too serious. Like more and more and more and more serious, like super serious but not too serious. Like the maximum seriousness without going over the edge into too much. Somehow he was always working on that. Like I said, now I'm too old to sit up straight, but I can try. He had that attitude towards the end.

[72:45]

He very seldom came on as morally superior. I can hardly think of an example of that. So I often say that for him, he had a lot of moral authority, but moral authority for him was not moral superiority. Or you might say he didn't have like moral strength. He had more like integrity. And he could confess his humanness. And he could confess to me as his young student, he could confess to me his little problems. And ask my permission about certain things. Like I've said sometimes that when I was the Eno in the city center, one time I was going to Zazen, and he was going out to the movies with a bunch of people.

[73:48]

And he came over to me and kind of apologized and asked my permission to go to the movies. Of course, I felt kind of funny that my teacher was asking me for permission to go to the movies, but... But I couldn't give it to him. No, I said, fine, fine, go ahead. Have a good time. I'll go to Zazen by myself. But I was touched that he asked me, you know. That he wasn't too great a Zen master to ask this little kid permission to go out. to the movies. He wasn't too proud to ask people's opinion about things. And I also tell a story, a related story, which a number you've heard is about another teacher who visited Tassajara one time after I was the abbot.

[74:50]

And he was a Zen teacher from Japan and he came with his disciples who were also, you know, pretty mature people, and they came and they said to me, you know, he's really tired, but if you don't tell him not to go to Zazen tonight, he'll go. He'll follow the schedule of the regular monks. But if you ask him not to go, since you're the abbot, he'll do what you say. So I said, excuse me, Narazaki Roshi? He said, yes. In Japanese, I said... you know, please rest tonight and do not go to Zazen. And he said, oh, thank you. Happily went to bed early. But, you know, I had to tell him not to go because I was the Ab and he respected me, even though he was my senior, you know. He didn't have to go. He still would have done that. And wouldn't you have considered that, in a way, if he had done something that he felt was a little bit harmful, or that that would have been harmful for him to go, he would have done that?

[75:53]

He would have done it, yeah. He would have pushed himself a little bit for the sake of the monks. And that's another thing about Suzuki Roshi, you know, is that before he went to Tazahara, He ate mostly white rice. And he was completely convinced that brown rice was better. And he gave a number of talks about how eating brown rice is really like studying emptiness. Because when you eat brown rice, you have to chew it. Whereas white rice, you can basically swallow unchewed. It's very smooth, goes right down. You can inhale white rice. It doesn't make that much difference, actually. It makes a little difference. But if you don't chew brown rice, you get indigestion. So it's really good to chew brown rice a lot. He knew that. And it was kind of like a metaphor of studying our life. If you chew your life, chew your experience, not like just try to get your experience, but chew your experience, study everything, chew, chew, chew.

[76:58]

Then you realize the emptiness of your experience. So eating brown rice is like a really good way to practice Buddhism. It's a really good metaphor for studying the self. So he was totally in favor of brown rice. However, he wasn't used to it, and he had, for your information, dentures. So it was hard for him to chew the brown rice, so he would do that, but it was hard for him. And he was also used to eating a little meat, a little fish, a little chicken now and then. So he went from eating some animal protein and eating a lot of white rice to going to Tassajara and eating brown rice. And people tried to get him to not eat with the monks and have his special meals off to the side with white rice and things. But he wouldn't do that. He ate with the monks, with the regular monks. And he did that because we didn't have a whole bunch of senior people.

[78:03]

that could lead to practice, that had been practicing in monasteries for a long time. We just started Tasselhara. He was basically it. He was our teacher. And he had to be there to show us how to do stuff and to show us that it was important to be there. So he was there, and he made it very clear that it was important to be there because he was there, and it was not easy for him to be there. So he gradually... lost weight. And that first summer, that first year at Tal Sahara, he lost a lot of weight. And he was a little tiny guy, so for him to lose weight was, you know, kind of hard on him. But he, he gave, you know, his health, kind of gave away his health. So we have this monastery now. He showed us that it was important enough to him to like, um, give his life for the monastery. And we didn't realize at the time how much he was giving, but now we can look back and see that he did give his life to start that monastery and to make clear how important it was for him to have that way of practice.

[79:15]

So at the same time, we don't want you to hurt yourself during the practice. You don't have to. Because if you take care of yourself, it won't confuse the monks. But if we were starting the monastery now and you were the teacher and you took real good care of yourself, it might not make clear to them what the practice was. So for the sake of starting Zen practice in America, he had to do that. Now that we're well established, I could say to him, Roshi, go to bed. I'll go sit with the monks. I'm young. I'm healthy. It's not hard on me. You go rest. And he could go do it. But there was nobody who didn't have He didn't have like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 monks that had been practicing for 25 or 30 years at that time to go lead the monks. It was just him, basically. So he had to do it. And, well, I guess it was worth it. Because so many people have been helped. But that's what it cost, sort of, his life.

[80:21]

And that monk, too, that other roshi, would give his life too for the monastery and being a leader like that that's what may be required because for you to go do it in some sense counts more than for another monk to do it so the monk can maybe take care of themselves so they can grow up and be examples too so they live a little longer but once you're old you know you've already lived your life to show that at the end you'd give it for the monastery it's a very powerful message he gave that message and we remember the message, so we still take care of Tassahara, and Tassahara still is this wonderful practice place because he showed that he cared enough about it so that others show that they care enough about it, and just the sense that this is an important thing to do gets carried on. But again, he did that after he'd been practicing a long time. After you've been practicing for 40 years, you probably would be able to maybe do something that wasn't quite so good for your health, too.

[81:27]

But you've got to take care of yourself for the next 40 years so you can do that. So don't push yourself too hard at this point, otherwise you'll probably just give up Zen practice. But he had already been practicing since he was 13, even more than 40 years. He'd been practicing 50 years when we started Taza Horus. So he could... he could give his life for the monks, which he did. It would have been nice if he was around longer, but that wasn't the way it worked out. And I also one time he said to me, I didn't know he was sick at the time, but he said, I want you to go to, he told me he wanted me to go to Japan.

[82:38]

He said, and pretty soon I want you to go to Japan, like maybe in less than a month. So I went over to the Japan consulate and got the sponsorship documents and brought them back to him and said, well, I got these sponsorship documents. And he said, um, And he said, I forgot what he said exactly, but he said, basically, he said, oh, I'll take those. And he took them. And that was the last I heard about going to Japan. But he took them kind of fast, you know, kind of like, kind of like, oh, well, how come you did that or something? I was too anxious, too enthusiastic. And I've told you this before, I'll tell you again, that when he gave me a chance to be with him in some situations, and I felt like he was offering me completely open-ended presence, like he was totally there for me, I couldn't stand it.

[84:05]

I usually try to get out of the room when he offered that to me. So now I notice that sometimes when I feel that way about people, They want to get away too. So I understand how that is. But he didn't oppress me with it. He didn't oppress me with his openness and his kindness. He would let me get away if I really wanted to. Yes? You said he remained open most of his life, even after his wife's murder, that it wasn't a continual question for him.

[85:12]

Yeah, I would like to lighten up on that it was a continual question for him. I would say that probably it was a, maybe it's a continual question for, not exactly for him, but maybe for the whole world about about what happened with his wife was like you know it's the question it's the ultimate challenge yeah so I don't think it was exactly personal to him but just it's an ongoing it's it's just sort of like a big question in the whole situation like it's you know it's a real tough question right that one and there's many aspects of it In those beginning days at Zen Center, how was the balance between work and study or what was the feeling of actual study?

[86:44]

Like some teachers suggest not reading, not studying, just sort of studying itself versus... In the early days at Zen Center, like before Tassahara? Yeah, already Tassahara. Well, before Tassahara, there was very little... recommendation of study. When people asked him to recommend books, he didn't read a lot of books in English about Buddhism. He mostly studied English, just how to speak English, and then just translated his background into English. He didn't read a lot of books in English that were about Buddhism. There weren't that many at that time anyway. And some people came to Zen Center with lots of book learning in the background, but when they asked him for recommendations, partly because he didn't know very many books, I think, but also partly because a lot of people came to Zen Center with lots of book learning, maybe too much. And he emphasized, de-emphasized study at the beginning. But just as he was about to die, he started to encourage us to study more.

[87:49]

And after I was ordained, generally speaking, he encouraged me very much to study. So I sometimes, and so I did. And he would sometimes come to my room and find me studying and gave me a lot of encouragement. One time he came to my room and saw me studying in my room. I had my stuff set up. I was sitting in Zazen posture studying. He really gave me the, you know, the kind of feeling like, do that. That's good.

[88:24]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_83.18