For me today is a very special day because it's Father's Day. We call it Father's Day. And I'm a father. I'm a father of three women. I'm also the child of a father.

[01:09]

So today and the days leading up today are days when I think about what it is to be a father and how I've been a father. In my conversations with fathers and mothers for the last few weeks, I've been thinking about today's talk and how my conversations with them could help me understand how to talk with you about this practice of fatherhood

[02:34]

I'm not, what do you call it, trying to get your pity. Being a mother is, some people say, an impossible job. But being a father is hard to live up to the requirements, to the responsibility of being the father of a of a man or a woman. A few weeks ago, my daughter said to me, what do you want for Father's Day, Dad? And I said, I want a talk. which is what I asked for for my birthday last year and for Father's Day last year.

[03:59]

So now she knows what to give me. I said, I talk, I want to talk, and I want to walk. So we made an appointment. And yesterday, some people asked me, what are you doing today? And I said. I don't know. I have an appointment with my daughter, but I don't know if she'll show up. She's a busy girl. But she did come. She came early. 44 minutes early. Part of the reason why we had Father's Day yesterday was because of the giving this talk today. Also, I'm going to leave Green Gulch today and go to Tassajara, so we couldn't do our Father's Day together today, so we did it yesterday.

[05:08]

She knew that I would be giving a talk today, and she said, I like that Father's Day talk that's in your book. I said I like to read it. I said I don't like to listen to your talks because there's too much space between the words. But when I'm in the book, I can read it as fast as I want. So this talk is partly, you know, you may not want to hear a confession from me, but it helps me to confess to you that I have not always really been present for my job.

[06:17]

And of course when you're not present for your job, you don't necessarily know you're not present. You might think, oh, I'm there for my kids. But if you're not, you might not know it. And I think, I thought I was there, but I wasn't. And she told me yesterday what she told me before, the horrifying figure, that for 14 years I was an absentee dad. She said, not like you're mailing in your ballot, but I don't know if I said, am I still? Maybe I said, am I still an absentee dad? And she said, no. Now you're a present dad. Present father. If I think of those years, of course I feel ashamed.

[07:28]

and sorry for myself that I missed being there. Of course, I was there sometimes, and those were some of the most wonderful moments of my life, but a lot of time I was busy with other responsibilities and miss my chance to watch her grow and learn and suffer. Now she's grown up so I don't have so many chances, so they're very precious to me, and I kind of beg her for more chances. And she gives them to me now and then.

[08:33]

I think she's forgiven me somewhat. These are the kind of spaces she doesn't like. Come on, Dad, keep talking. And she doesn't like me to apologize for my failings. But I have to anyway sometimes. So as her mother says, she's kind of got me wrapped around her finger.

[10:14]

And after we came back from the walk, she said, he's all kind of, he's all kind of, what do you say, kind of goofy and happy now. So she said, I don't know if she said exactly this, but she sort of said to her mom, watch this. And she said, do you want to loan me your car to use tonight? We already gave her a car, but it's not working now. So she said, do you want to give me your car for tonight? And I said, no. I don't want to. I said to my wife, do you want to? She said no. And then later my wife said, I thought it was really good in your gooey kind of dazzled state that she stood your ground.

[11:18]

Because that's part of a father or mother's job too is that even though you're dazzled by the beauty of your child that you still have feelings about some things. And it's your job to say what's happening. Our friends and children need that from us. One of the fathers that talked to me recently was talking to me about his daughter. And he's having a hard time with her. And one of the kinds of problems he has with her is he asks her to do some things, some just simple household things.

[12:27]

Like after she walks the dog, he asks her to put the leash in a bucket. But often when he comes home, he finds the leash thrown into the hall, not in the bucket, somewhere in the neighborhood of the bucket. And he'd like her to put it actually in the bucket. And then he said something like, he used the expression, a good situation. He wants to have a good situation. I think he said he wanted to have a good situation with his daughter. But when I talked to him more, I realized that what he meant by a good situation was that she would put the leash in the bucket. In other words, what he meant by good situation, which is understandable, is that she would be under his control.

[13:35]

that a good situation is when our children are doing what we think is good for them to do. We often feel that such and such would be good for our children. We want to, you know, protect their life and have them learn good ways of behaving. So because we want that for them, or maybe we want something just for ourselves, and we want them to learn how to deal with our state, we want certain things. And that's what he meant by a good situation. So I said to him, you know what I think is a good situation? I think a good situation is if you can keep your eye on what's happening So that when your daughter comes in the house and she throws the leash on the floor or whatever, I think a good situation would be if you see her throw the leash on the floor.

[14:52]

And you see how you feel when she does that. And you watch how it happens that you feel that way. and you see how she throws it, and you see what she looks like and how she is when she throws it. And I believe, and I believe, I experience that when we watch, that when I watch how things are happening, how it happens that, you know, father and daughter and leash body and mind, how that all happens, that you maybe feel somewhat upset when your daughter throws the leash. If you watch how that happens, you see beauty. You see your daughter's beauty.

[15:54]

Not even your daughter's beauty, but the beauty of your daughter. It's the father's job, it's the mother's job to see the beauty of the child. To keep our eye on their beauty. As it happens moment by moment. As it happens when they're doing things that we don't like or that we do like. And then, seeing the beauty, then say what's happening with Dad, if possible.

[16:56]

And not seeing the beauty, sometimes you can speak But then you might be speaking from not seeing the beauty. And not seeing the beauty, you may think it's ugly that your daughter doesn't do what you think would be good. And then you say maybe, do that, but you mean this is a bad thing and you're ugly and you should do this and then maybe you'll be beautiful. And I'll think it's a good situation. Rather than somehow in your heart you know this is beautiful and you're talking to a beautiful being and you're saying, you know, in parentheses maybe, beautiful being, close parentheses, your father wants you to put that leash in the bucket. That's what I want. I actually want that. And the reason why I want it is because I don't like the leash lying on the floor in the hall.

[18:04]

That's why. I just don't like it. And in fact, if I come through the hall and I find the leash on the floor, I will pick the leash up and put it in the bucket. That's what I'll do, because that's what I want. And there's no harm in that, that I can see. So if you put the leash on the floor, in fact, I have to pick it up after you, and I don't want to do that. That's what I want." See, looking at the beauty of the child and then saying what you want very clearly. It's not that what you want, if they do that, then they'll be beautiful. No. They're already beautiful and you want them to do something. Not so that they'll be all right. but just because you happen to want something. The only reason why you're saying it is because you want it. There's no more to it than that. Then they have a chance to see the beauty because if you just see their beauty and don't ask anything of them, they don't know what's happening because you do want something.

[19:21]

And they can't see what's happening because you don't tell them what you want but if you tell them what you want then they get to know what's happening and then they can see what's happening and they can see the beauty too maybe if they want to look meantime you keep looking at the beauty and you keep giving them all the information just about what's happening and they have a chance to both realize that they're beautiful and see the beauty themselves and they need to be told sometimes The parentheses should be taken off sometimes and just say, you're beautiful, you're beautiful, you're beautiful, you're beautiful. They need to know that because they are. And they don't know it unless they're told and retold until it takes hold.

[20:27]

And when they know it, then it will be easier for them to hear, your father wants this. Your father who thinks you're beautiful wants this. Deal with it. This is who he is. This is who your father is. This is information for you about your life. You got this kind of father. So we have to not only keep our eye on the light of what's happening, but we have to deliver what we are in the process. We have to share that we have problems and desires. But not confuse our desires with the beauty of the being. and also not think that our desires are in contradiction to it.

[21:34]

They're just part of what's happening. So sometimes people ask me how my daughter is and I say, my youngest daughter they're usually asking me about who's only 20 and I usually get this vision of this beautiful being and then I get the same time this vision of this person who's having trouble realizing that this normal person who's struggling to fulfill what she is, and at the same time, what she is. I see those two at the same time, so I always see these both. I see what she really is and what she's able to stand of what she is at the same time. So I usually don't say, great, when they ask me how she is.

[22:43]

I usually say, well, you know, she's this great person, but she's, you know, she's struggling to find her, to find her passion. And yesterday I was very happy to hear from her, she's in college, that she actually loves anthropology. I was, I said, wow, I'd never heard you say that about any subjects in school. She said she loves anthropology. And she said she thinks the reason why she loves it is because it's about people. Because she really does love, she thinks people are really interesting. And she loves children. So I was happy to hear that. A friend of mine told me that she has a daughter. She has a wonderful grown daughter. She loves her daughter to bits.

[23:48]

And she thinks her daughter's great. And she also thinks her daughter's kind of in trouble, doing some unwholesome things that she thinks will hurt her daughter. And she wants to tell her daughter that she's worried about her. And... worried about her. She's worried about some of the ways she's living. And she said, when my daughter comes to see me, I'm in conflict because I'm so happy to see her and she's so much fun and she's so beautiful. I just want to enjoy being with her. But if I enjoy being with her, I can't tell her about my problems with her and how worried I am. So I'm kind of like afraid to really enjoy being with her because I'm afraid I'll overlook telling her about my problems with her. And if I tell her about my problems with her, I might overlook how much fun it is to be with her and how glad I am to see her. So I said, well, you know, this is the law, but anyway, I would suggest when you're with your daughter, enjoy it.

[24:56]

Just enjoy how wonderful it is to be with her. And maybe send her a letter telling her that you're worried. Because maybe you can't tell her how worried you are when you look at her because actually all you see is how beautiful she is and you're really not worried at that moment. But then later you think, yeah, but she's, yeah, but she's, yeah, but she's. So in some ways, you know, it might be practical just to split the two daughters up and enjoy the one who's so brilliantly beautiful and then the other one just send letters to where you can sit down and, you know, compose your thoughts and you don't have all that light in your face. So you can just sort of like say, this is your mother talking, this is your father talking, and I have these concerns about your behavior. And now that you're not here, I can't enjoy your presence, so I want to send you this message about my concern for you. I want to help you protect your precious life. And here's my concerns. And start the letter and end the letter with how truly grateful you are to have such a person in your life, but

[26:11]

The gratitude for having this person is part and parcel or inseparable from your concern that they live up to their potential. If we have a child who doesn't have certain abilities, we don't worry that they can't do those things necessarily. If you have a child who's not good at math and they don't do well in math, you feel like, But when they can do something and they don't do it, it hurts. Well, it's also, it doesn't just hurt, though, you're also grateful. So you're grateful and hurting at the same time. So just maybe separate them, I said. And she also said that when she relates to her daughter, she feels like she has to do all this stuff in relationship to her daughter. And I said, yeah, that's reasonable.

[27:12]

That's normal. You feel like you have to do this and do that. But at the same time, you're doing all these things with your children. You can keep your eye on what's happening and in a sense realize that there's somebody there who's not doing anything. So part of our mother, part of our father is responding to us and doing things, giving us advice, asking us to do this, asking us to do that, expressing their concerns. And you can't, not can't, I don't think it's good to stop this natural process of activity. And that's part of the deal. But there's also somebody there who is not doing anything, who is not trying to do anything with the situation, who is just present with all this activity.

[28:30]

And this is the same thing as keeping your eye on the beauty of the relationship. is that it's never more or less beautiful and you can't do anything about it in terms of its beauty level but somebody else is all the time busy doing things about it combing the hair, brushing the teeth adjusting the clothes making the suggestions, that activity is going on but some other presence is always there not exactly other presence, but there is a presence there, which is the not exactly better gift than the activities we do for our children. It just completes the picture. It rounds it out and makes it full. Namely, you don't have to do anything ever to be my child.

[29:38]

No matter what you do, I'll always care about you, and you'll always be my child. There's no way to change that. No matter what I do, there's no way to change that I'm your parent. There's nothing I can do about that. And yet I'm doing all these things. But I always keep my eye on the fact that nothing's really happening here. We're just together. But it's hard to stay present with that light, with all this activity, high intensity movement and noise that's going on. But our children need that from us. Of course this applies to all relationships. But maybe not all relationships are quite this brilliant and difficult to stay present for. Like I was talking to an adult woman the other day.

[31:00]

She's not my daughter, but she's an adult woman. She's a little too old to be my daughter, but anyway. She told me that she kind of felt like she needs to improve. And I think the feeling that you need to improve is a normal human feeling. And I'm not going to argue with you and say you don't need to improve. I didn't argue with her and tell her she didn't need to improve. That's not the point. It's okay to feel like you need to improve. But what I did tell her was that all the Buddhas are rooting for you to be yourself. They're not hoping that you're going to improve.

[32:10]

They're rooting for you to be yourself because they see how beautiful you are. And then she said, yeah, but I don't think people really like my unimproved self. Most people are not happy with me being unimproved. She said, I don't remember what I said, but I think I said the same thing again.

[33:23]

I'm, with all the Buddhas, rooting for you to be yourself. I'm not asking you to improve. Say, well, I'm asking you, I'm hoping you get better at being willing to be what you are. have to be told and retold until it takes hold. Nothing's more difficult than to be yourself. You need all the help in the world, and you're getting it.

[34:27]

My wife told me that when she was a girl, her father helped her learn how to ride a bicycle. She told me this right around the time when Some of the things I did with my daughter I couldn't do with her anymore because she was growing up and father's assistance sometimes becomes at least temporarily obsolete. Girls get into stuff which mothers know more about and fathers get pushed away. This little person who you used to hold naked in your arms and whose diapers you used to change and whose fanny you used to clean now has to cover up and run into her room when she sees you. It's part of the normal thing. But anyway, I thought, oh, well, I can still, maybe I can still teach her how to ride a bicycle or help her ride a bicycle.

[36:07]

Maybe that would be a chance I could have. So starting from the time she was pretty young, I would say every now and then, would you like me to teach you how to ride a bicycle? And she would say, she said, no. And then I got her some bicycle. I got her a little bicycle with training wheels and fixed it up for her. And I said, I got this bicycle for her. Would you like to learn how to ride a bicycle? And she said, no. And I didn't then get her a bigger bicycle after that. I just kept asking her if she wanted to ride a bicycle. She kept saying no. And then one day she came and she said to me, Dad, you want to teach me to ride a bicycle? I said, yes. She said, you can do it today. So we borrowed a bicycle about the right size for her and we went out to the park. And my wife told me how her father helped her learn.

[37:12]

And the way her father helped her was he held the seat from the back and ran alongside her. And at first, maybe even hold the steering handlebars. So you hold the handlebars and hold the seat. And then you start going. And you stabilize the bicycle by holding the seat for her and run alongside. And if she looks like she's going to turn the wheel too much, you grab the steering wheel. You can grab that. And then pretty soon she's steering okay and you're just stabilizing for her and she's going along. So she's actually pretty much riding a bicycle. You're just giving her a little stability as she goes. And she gets more and more confident. You're doing less and less. And she feels that. And then she says, let go, Dad. And you let go. And there she goes.

[38:13]

and you did your job. You helped her, and you let go. And now she's riding along on her own. Until she crashes. And then you run and help her get up. But she went on her own for a while. So I was looking forward to that moment for many years and I was not disappointed. It was as wonderful as I thought it might be to watch her learn that skill and to help her learn it. And even the wonderful thing of letting go. some older women, some grown women were sitting on a park bench and saw this happen. And I could see that they understood what was happening and they were so happy to see it.

[39:21]

But the important point for me is not only is it wonderful to be there with someone when they learn something and help them and then let them go, but I did not love my daughter more after she learned how to ride a bicycle than I did before. She was not a better person afterwards. Same person, and we learned something together. That's all. She was not improved by this. And yet it was wonderful, a wonderful experience of non-improvement. A great change that's not an improvement.

[40:30]

So I feel it's very important for me to tell people, I want this. I feel I need that. I offer this. I must offer this, especially to someone like my daughter. And some people who I so-called, I have a training relationship with, I sometimes say, I want this. I want that. The main thing I tell them I want is I want them to have the courage and the confidence to be themselves. Now, I may not be able to stand that, but that's what I want. That's what I ask for. But it won't be an improvement when they learn that.

[42:07]

It'll just be a wonderful thing that we all can share. So I dedicate this talk to all mothers and all fathers and all the children of mothers and fathers. The sympathy for how difficult it is to be a mother and a father and a child and how wonderful it is. And I hope that we can confess our shortcomings and forgive each other and be forgiven. And to go forward in the practice of keeping our eye on the beauty of all beings as it manifests in what's happening.

[43:20]

Kathleen, do you know that song, Oh My Papa? Do you know that song? Could you come over here, Kathleen? A song called Oh My Papa. When I was a kid, this was sung by Perry Como, I believe. Is that right? Is he the one who sang it? Perry Como? Como? Kathleen often knows the songs. She's about my age. Can you sit here? Do you want to get a cushion or something? Would that help you? You can look at it if you want. Are you going to sing a tune? I'll sing a tune, but I want you to look at it just for a second to see if you can... Do you know the melody, sort of? Yes. Okay. I know the first two lines. Everybody knows the first two lines, probably. So, I don't know how you start this, I mean, what tone, but... Oh, my papa, to me he was so wonderful.

[44:58]

Oh, my Papa, to me he was so good. No one could be so gentle and so lovable. Oh, my Papa, he always understood. All right, here we're in trouble. Here now. Here we're in trouble now. Here comes the argument. Understood. Gone are the days when he would take me on his knee. And with a smile he changed my tears to laughter. Oh, my papa So funny, so adorable Always a down So funny in his way Oh, my papa To me he was so wonderful

[46:21]

Oh, deep in my heart, I miss him so today. Thank you. And then we usually end with these verses, but I want to, we usually say, may our intention equally penetrate every being in place with the true merit of Buddha's way, right? And then we do the four vows, and here's a little different version of the four vows, just for your information, something like this. sentient beings are numberless sentient beings are numberless i vow to sentient beings are numberless i vow to save them all delusions are inexhaustible i will not heed their call dharma gates are boundless i will not hesitate buddha's way is unsurpassable i'll sit and meditate

[47:29]

Hi. You're talking so much about what can I call these questions. I also have a daughter. And last week I saw her in a band performance. And the performance was so moving, so beautiful. She was this beautiful young woman. After the performance, the feelings that I had were such pain because I realized seeing myself healthy has made me so happy. And I realized the pain was inevitable. And I couldn't come down. And I was really

[49:12]

about the situation, because when she was a baby and I loved her and took care of her and worried about her, it seemed natural. And then year by year, it seems like I love her more. Not less, but I only have a relationship I have with my mother. And I grew up with people I accepted. So in this relationship, it seems like I've always, you know, more than ever. And I don't know what to do with this. So I was thinking about it. all of this on my own.

[50:16]

So, I highly practice your being empowered and ready, ready to open your heart. So, so we're talking about that. So all you have to do is know that that happens. And by the way, I don't know if you understand that, And I said, what's the matter? And she said, well, you can have a cold hand. I don't know what's going on. And I was really, I don't know what you're talking about. And you need to call me. And she still wasn't satisfied. And then I was doing the calories that I need to do.

[51:18]

And I tried to run away. And she said, no, you're not running away. Come back and talk to me. And I couldn't get to the bottom of it. Or I couldn't really fess up to what was going on. And I said, but I do love you. I do care about you. I do think you're beautiful. And she said, but I don't really feel, I don't, you don't tell me enough words. And then I confessed, I love you so much. And said that so much. And it hurts me so much that I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm terrified. I can't do that. I said, if you think I have to go to bed and you want to go to bed with me, that would be impossible. I want to go to bed with you.

[52:22]

I'm not going to do it. Yes?

[54:10]

What spoke to me is that I felt like it's absolutely from what you're saying to me, how as a parent, you are allowing your child to stick to something, you know, involving my father, my mother, such and such people as you. So, should we forget that? It's okay, you can come in. Is that a girl or boys that you have there?

[55:12]

Is she going away now? Is that girl going away now? Well, I guess in terms of what I said before, if you can just be present with your obsession

[56:19]

including that you have an obsession, including that you have another, maybe, associated obsession that you'd like to find a solution to that obsession. Is that right? Yep. You have an obsession, and also you want to have a solution to the obsession. You'd like to be free of the obsession. Right? So you've got obsession and also you'd like to be free of the obsession. Is there anything else you'd like to be free of besides the obsession? Well, you can... Okay, well, anyway, if you want to be free of some obsession, then... If you can be intimate with that obsession, then that intimacy will free you of the obsession.

[57:29]

Yeah, well, so you might be quite close, you see. But intimacy, when you really get intimate with something, It's not other than you. I don't feel like you are. The basic principle that I'm proposing to you is X, whatever it is, you want to be free of X? Become intimate with X. But intimate does not mean to indulge in it or get away from it. For example, your obsession, okay, whatever it is, I don't feel separate from your obsession. Okay? So because I don't feel separate from your obsession, I also don't identify with your obsession.

[58:39]

All right? I don't. Right? So I'm free of your obsession in that way. But if you separate yourself from your obsession, Or if you identify with your obsession, neither of those are intimacy. Just like with a person. If you identify with me, that's not intimate with me. If you separate from me, that's not intimate. So you feel some separation from me, but Intimacy is to not feel separate or identical with me. Intimacy with your obsession is there won't be you and your obsession and you won't be your obsession. So you have to get completely not identify with your obsession but completely intimate.

[59:43]

Intimate includes or includes freedom from identification and separation. If there's a slight bit of difference... That's right. You understand. Right, that's right. So you have to give up all you're familiar with. That's what intimacy is. You give up all your habits. And then you will... So you have an obsession that's causing you problems. You have all these habitual ways that you know about how to deal with problems. You give those up. So... I'm sorry. But this is the way I am.

[60:46]

That's the kind of advice I give. I give advice like that. Someone else might give you some advice about something you can do about your obsession. But if you do anything about your obsession, you continue to be, I feel, feeding it. Yes. Yeah. Well, this is, you say, not separating, not separating and not identifying. Okay? So what you give up is you give up separating and you give up identifying. So how do you give up separating and identifying? How do you give them up? Are you listening? Are you listening? The way you give up separating is that when you're separating, you just let the separating be separating.

[61:55]

That's all you do. That gives up the separating. When you're identifying, you just let the identifying be identifying. That's all you do. In other words, you don't do anything. That's what I was saying. You just let it happen. It's happening anyway. Yeah, there you go. He just went like this. It's like that. You settle with what's happening. It's not easy to learn how to do that. It takes 30 or 40 years. Some people are faster. But most people it takes about that long to learn how to do it. If you're faster, fine. But to find this balanced place between all the activities you're doing and let everything be as it is, then everything drops away.

[63:00]

All attachment drops away, I mean. And then what's happening is just what's happening. And that's when you see the beauty. And I released. Still, you're a person, and you can still say, I use this, I want that, I have a problem with this. There's no attachment, no obsession. It's like, I'm like this, but there's no obsession about it. I'm not like this, not like this, not like this. There's no obsession. Obsession means you're in a rut. It's established. You're paralyzed, you're trapped into it. But the Buddha understands obsession and is released. And the way you understand obsession is by studying it rather than meddling with it.

[64:08]

Same with people. Rather than meddling with people, you study them. And if you study people rather than meddling with them, you'll become free of them. And when you're free of them, you can say, I want this, I want that. I don't want this, I don't want that. No big deal. Just you're a stupid human. Pardon. Just, you know, like... It's like a baby just making noise. Yes. Uh-huh.

[65:23]

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, if I don't fully experience my current suffering, then I'm worried about it getting worse. If I don't experience my current suffering fully, then I worry about it getting worse, or that I worry about it going on longer. So then, of course, not experiencing my current suffering gives me the fear and so on about what's going to, about it going on forever. So if I experience my current suffering fully, there's no way, I cannot think of the future at that time. I cannot worry about what's going to happen next. So, in fact, we can experience our current suffering.

[66:37]

It is possible. And if we're willing to do that fully, we get free of worrying about how long it's going to last or that it might get worse. And it might get worse. It's true. But no matter how bad it gets, when it happens, if you fully experience it, you won't be worried about the fact that it might get worse again. The point is you won't worry anymore. You just suffer. You just have suffering plus suffering plus worry and fear. And then, if you keep practicing that way, you start to notice how the suffering happens. And you start to see the beauty in the suffering. When you see how suffering happens, when you see suffering and you can experience it fully, if sufferings are arising and you withdraw from it, shrink back from it, resist it, you can't see it clearly.

[67:54]

Your resistance, your unwillingness to experience it, you're not getting enough information. You're not accepting the information. If you can settle with your suffering, then right in the middle of the suffering you will see the cause of the suffering. The cause is right in the middle of it. It has a seed in the middle of it, the root, the condition. All suffering depends on something. If you want to see what is causing your suffering, you have to be with your suffering. Of course, theoretically you can hear what it is. but to be there and have it like pop up and show it to you actually see it right there right in the middle of the suffering see the cause then if you watch the cause again now stay with the cause stay present with the cause right in the middle of the cause you'll see the cessation of the suffering suffering in the middle cause in the middle of the cause freedom from the suffering and that beautiful

[68:58]

way that the world works is right there. You have to equip yourself, you have to develop the ability to be with your suffering. Then you have to develop the ability to stay present with the revelation of the conditions for your suffering. If you stay present with the revelation of the conditions of your suffering, you have the revelation of the freedom from your suffering. If you can stay present with the freedom from your suffering, you can become free of the freedom of your suffering. You just keep going on like that. But we need to develop the ability to feel this pain moment by moment. We need to get intimate with the pain and the obsessions in order to see the conditions for the obsessions and the release from the obsessions. And you can mention once. It's OK. Of course, more than that.

[70:00]

But maybe once you can imagine it. That's difficult. The important point is, do you wish, do you want to study your suffering? Or not? If you don't, then maybe you need some encouragement. Because I think it's very good to study our suffering. I think we can't become free of something if we don't understand it. We need to meditate on things in order to become free of them. We need to bring them out in front, look at them, see what they are. Then we can become free. Is mindfulness the same as paying attention to what's going on?

[71:11]

Yes, it's the same. What? No, well mindfulness is, in some sense, it's paying attention to the way things are going on, yes, but in particular it's paying attention to the way things are going on such that you understand what's going on. Well, I just talked to both of these people about the structure, okay? So if you're looking at something, okay, and you look at it, and while you're looking at it, lots is going on. Like right now I'm looking at you, and something else may be going on. Like I may think, oh, I like him, I don't like him, I'm getting bored with him, I'm wasting my time. Various other thoughts may arise while I'm looking at you. If I notice those things, I just let them go and just realize that they aren't really associated with you. I see if I can see you free of all the judgments of you, then I'm looking and I'm paying attention to you in such a way that I have a chance to see clearly what you are.

[72:23]

So some people pay attention to things, but they don't pay attention in such a way that they can see what's happening. So although many things are happening all the time in our mind, there's a way to pay attention in the middle of all that so that you can see what's happening. You can see how all these things are relating with each other, how these things are coming up together. So you can see, oh, when I, you know, when you feel something, it's different from when I feel something. When you say certain things to me, I feel different than when you say other things. I see how that all works. Meantime, many other things are going on which I can get distracted by and get hung up on and not notice what's going on. So when something happens, in a way, it's possible to see something happening without activating your mind in relationship to the experience.

[73:33]

The mind is already activated in the sense that you're aware of something. But it can just be that. Or you can say, well, I don't like that. Or that's not worth looking at. Or this is lovely. So this happens and then there's I don't like it. But right at that time, there's a way of seeing this object or being aware of this object that somehow doesn't get into the judgment that's happening at the same time. So you can actually see, oh, I'm looking at this man and I think he's a good man. But this thinking he's a good man is really not... is more complicated than it needs to be. It is happening, but I never really... I can also just see you without even remembering your name or...

[74:39]

making any value judgment on you, even though that value judgment and name might be happening at the same time. So in a sense, I realized that there's a way of relating to you which is, we say in Zen, is like a mind like a wall. I have a mind like a wall. Almost like a stupid mind. It can't make anything out of things. Like you say, what's this? It's a hand. It's about it. It's not a good hand, a bad hand. You don't like it or dislike it. It's not... It's just a hand. It's like, that's all you can do with things. Even though you have abilities to do more, part of your mind is very, very simple and innocent of any kind of elaboration or distraction from what's happening, or evaluation, getting pushed around. That's kind of like pure mindfulness. That it isn't really?

[75:44]

Yes? Did I say, I said what? You're saying I said your intention is to focus on something? No, it's not quite seeing the situation. It's like when we see objects, When we're aware of an object, an external object, for example, or an internal object, like a feeling, we can be aware of that, like we can be aware of a person's face.

[76:52]

Okay? But that's oftentimes, at the same time, there might be some judgment of that. Okay? No, don't reject the judgment. just find the kind of mind, this wall-like mind, which sees the object and doesn't get involved in all these judgments or evaluations, even though they're going on at the same time. It's almost like you had two people here, in a way. One person was almost, like I say, almost stupid. Another person's quite smart. And so you bring someone in here, and you ask the stupid person, What did you see there? I saw a person. The other person says, yeah, but I saw much more. I saw this, this, and this. I saw they were a good person, and I realized that I don't like them and all that. So we have this kind of like smart person and this more dumb person. The dumb person can't do anything.

[77:57]

It's like, what's this? It's a hand. What day is it? It's Sunday. Now, there's much more going on than that. but on some level to take it like a child would take it. Just very superficial. There is a kind of very superficial way of taking things. Okay? And to let a superficial thing be a superficial thing is just leaving something to be what it is. There's much more going on, and you can see it, but you don't confuse the two. For example, you can have a pain and notice that you have resistance to the pain. But you can also not let the resistance to the pain reach the pain, and just, on some level, just feel the pain, flat out. Just pain, pain, pain, pleasure, pleasure, pain, pain, pleasure. That's it. You have all kinds of other abilities simultaneously going on, all kinds of other mental functions, but you can see that it can be dealt with more simply.

[79:00]

You don't have to get all confused. So, this is an example of not being confused. We just simply have pain. And if you can deal with things in that way, and then also you can move your attention over to now we just have a judgment. And that's all I have. And now here's the pain again, now here's another judgment, now here's an impulse to avoid it, now here's an impulse to attach to it. Now here's fear, now here's, you know, all these things. One by one you'll experience And your presence, you're so clear and present with this that none of these other words reach it. Even though they're flying all over the place, they don't reach it. They sort of like drop away and you're just aware, simply and purely aware of what's happening in terms of the object of the moment. And if it's pain, and you look at it that way, you can see, oh,

[80:02]

Pain depends on these other things. But it's not these other things. It depends on them. And since it depends on them, you understand how it happens, you become free. But you have to clearly observe things this way. And it's difficult. Because we easily confuse and confound various elements of our experience. That's right, you experience it right now, and then gradually you see the conditions for your anxiety. When you see the conditions for your anxiety, you can become free of it. But we have to like, we have to say, I'm feeling anxious. If I hide our anxiety from myself, it just sits behind us and pushes us around.

[81:07]

you just become dominated. But if you could bring the anxiety out in front and just say simply, I feel anxious, then you can begin your work. Well, how do you feel anxious? Is there anything associated with that? You don't even have to ask. You'll just tell a story gradually. Yes? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you.

[82:28]

Yeah. You said quite a bit, so I'm not sure I could... Okay. Yes. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh, so you have the example of, let's say someone is in a situation that's harming them in some way, and they're experiencing pain, and so what if they found a way to calm in the middle of the pain, then would they maybe just sit there and continue to experience harm?

[84:01]

So you're asking if that's a possibility? Yes, it is a possibility. And so let's follow this scenario further and say, now you're in a situation, before you were in a situation where you were experiencing some harm and feeling some pain, but you weren't calm. What are you saying? In the example, you want to say, Excuse me, but now I think I was trying to simplify it. Can I just take this example of you're in a situation, you feel that some harm is being done, and you feel pain about the harm.

[85:06]

and you're concerned that if you would become calm, you might just sit there and take more harm. So I'm just saying that if you weren't calm and you're experiencing harm, then you have two situations. One is you're not calm and you're experiencing harm. The other is you are calm and experiencing harm. And I think part of what you may be feeling is that if you weren't calm and you're experiencing harm, you might then get away from the harm. If you are calm and experiencing harm, you might just sit there and take the harm. So then being calm with the harm wouldn't be good, would it? Right. That's a possible thing to happen. So sometimes being calm is not good, in a way. And sometimes it is good. When is it good? It would be good when, perhaps, if you're experiencing harm, you're in some harmful situation, and And you got calm, and then by becoming calm, you would see a way to become free of it in your calmness.

[86:13]

Now, if you're in a situation and you're fearing harm, and you don't feel calm, but you see a way to actually become free of the suffering, free of the harm, I would say that you had some calm. Because if you could see what gets you out of it, then you actually had enough calm to see what would get you out of it. So you actually did have calm because you could see. If you can see straight, you have calm. Now in some situations you're being harmed and you can't see a way to get out for the time being. But you're calm. Could you start over again?

[87:25]

I'm lost. Yes? Pardon? You mean someone says to you that they want a job? You feel in yourself a desire to have a job? I mean, are you asking me if you have a desire to do something?

[88:30]

Is that what you're saying? No. No, that's not right. I didn't get it. Pardon? I understand that, but I don't know what her example is. So, you want to try again? I don't know. I'm not getting it. Okay. Yes? Yes? uh you have a belief or it seems reasonable you have a belief are they beliefs you have a belief that if you

[89:22]

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