the kind of relationships that are supportive of ignorance. And I just, when I said that, I thought, well, actually, no relationships are really very supportive of ignorance. It's better not to have any relationships if you want to be ignorant. But the ones I was talking about yesterday are relationships that are basically not reciprocal, where the reciprocity between yourself and another being is not being recognized, or where non-reciprocity is being kind of dramatized or realized. So you might think, well, maybe enlightening relationships might be relationships where reciprocity is being realized or where reciprocity is being enacted or dramatized or something like that.

[01:23]

Might you think that? Hmm? Yeah, I think that's right. I think relationships where there's reciprocity are enlightening. And I think that relationships where there is reciprocity are enlightening and that they support liberation and freedom between us. So how do we have reciprocal relationships? What does that require of us? And so one thing I'd like to emphasize is that it requires that each of us pay attention, listen to, recognize the beings that we meet.

[02:27]

and also that each of us offer ourselves to each being we meet so that we can so that they can recognize us. So if I try to listen to you and recognize you then I also need you to present yourself to me so that I can listen to you and recognize you. So the reciprocity involves me expressing myself to you and listening to you and you expressing yourself to me and listening to me. And you might say, well, how about if I don't look at you and I don't listen to you, and I don't express myself to you, and you don't express yourself to me, and you don't listen to me, and you don't recognize me, wouldn't that be reciprocal too?

[03:41]

And that would be too. So that's another kind of reciprocity that would be pretty enlightening. Try that. So that would be like nobody would be there, right? That would be liberating. Try it. Try not listening to anybody and having nobody listen to you and not look at anybody and have nobody look at you and don't express yourself verbally or physically. That would be enlightening. But almost no one's ready for that. They might try the other one, which is hard enough. So it's very simple and extremely difficult, namely, to listen to others, recognize others, And also have somebody there who's actually giving you something to listen to. Because some people won't express themselves and some of us won't express ourselves. So if we won't express ourselves, we're not offering anybody anything to recognize.

[04:47]

And if they're not expressing themselves, we need them to express themselves. So we need to express ourselves in the form sometimes of asking people to express themselves. And why we tell them that we want them to express themselves, we need to recognize them while we're telling them. And so on. You get the picture? That's pretty much it. That's an enlightening relationship. And anybody who would be willing to work on that is a little bit interested in waking up, I think. The person might not be, you know, completely developed, this other person who wants to meet you, who's willing to listen to you and tell you the truth, tell you who they are, they might not be fully completed all their work in study, but they're probably good enough to start with, anybody like that. The question is, I guess, are you at that point where you want to have an enlightening relationship

[05:56]

Is that enough starters? Do you have any comments or questions? Yes. What happens when you're in a situation with a person and they say they don't know? That's fine. Do they say, I don't know? They don't know how they feel or how they express it. That's fine. That's fine. Then you listen, you hear that? You hear that? And then you have something to say. And what do you say? Hmm? Yeah, if I say I don't know, what do you say to me? I don't know how I feel. Sounds good. How are you going to find out? By saying yes. Yeah.

[07:11]

So that's a pretty good interchange. And then the next time we meet, what will we say? So we could just do this right now, you know. I'm pretty good. I'm here at Tassajara, as you see. Ready for some more comments? And how are you feeling? You do? How's the guest season going so far? Is it? Do you feel like I'm recognizing you right now? What could I do to make you... How could I recognize you more fully? I think that would depend on where I was coming from to be coming from.

[08:28]

Where are you coming from to begin with? More of what? Thank you. Yes, Liz? Did you hear what she said? She had a relationship once and the person she had this relationship with didn't think there was a problem and she thought there was. Sound familiar? He?

[09:37]

I had a problem. Did that sound familiar? He? Yes. He thought... He what? He thought that I had a problem because I thought there was a problem. Right. He thought you knew there was a problem. You had the problem because you thought there was a problem. If you didn't think there was a problem, then there wouldn't be one, right? Sound familiar? Okay, we got that. So, Jeff... Oh, you tried to believe that if you didn't have a problem, there wouldn't be a problem. Oh, I see. See, the difference between... See, he said if she didn't have a problem, that there wouldn't be a problem because he didn't have one. And in a way, kind of logically speaking, he's right. You know, because if you didn't have one and he didn't have one, then there wouldn't be one, right? Yeah.

[10:40]

But the problem is, if you try to, like, deny that you have a felt, that's not so good. Right? That's very unenlightening for me to deny what I'm feeling and for you to deny what you're feeling, right? But you were tempted because you thought, well, if I could, like, give rid of this, then everything would be fine, according to him. Except that's not the way you felt. And also you didn't feel recognized by him, really. In an enlightening relationship, you know, it's not so much, you might feel like you don't have a problem and the other person might feel like there is a problem. There is situations like that, really. For example, one person may not like the smell of something and the other person may not mind it. Right? And really, they may never mind it. Some people might not, some people don't really have an aversion to vomit, others don't mind. You know? So here we are, and there's some vomit, and you've got a problem with it, I don't.

[11:42]

So if you didn't, there wouldn't have been a problem, right? Yeah. Right. Maybe we're up to our knees in it. Who knows? But in an enlightening relationship, I'm trying to recognize that you have a problem. And I'm not here to tell you you don't have a problem. I'm here to listen to your problem. Not that I have your problem, because we have different perspectives. That's part of what's enlightening about it. it's that I'm listening to your problem. And not only am I listening to your problem, but it's important to me that you feel that I'm listening to you. Like I could say I'm listening to you, but if you don't feel like I'm listening to you, that's not enough. It's good to listen to people even if they don't think you're listening, but there's this other thing called that they feel like you are. They need to know. Sometimes you're listening to people And they really think you're not. And in a way, they're wrong. Because you're hearing everything they're saying.

[12:43]

But it's also important to listen to them in such a way that they sense that you are listening. Because if they sense that you are listening, they can tell you more if they sense that you are. So if you told him... that you had a problem, and he listened to you, you might be able to tell him more about the problem, and he might eventually understand, and maybe even see that it was a problem. No, I did tell the problem. The person did listen, but didn't agree that it was a problem. That's what I mean. Yeah, you don't have to... It isn't necessary that we agree. It isn't necessary that we agree on such and such being such and such, but you can still understand that it is a problem for the other person. Well, that is the truth, though. I mean, yeah, it looks like we, but it, of course, is I, right?

[13:47]

It could be. I was convinced it was me, but it was me, my perception. But we definitely had a problem. Yes. There was a problem that you had, but there was also a problem that we had. The problem that we had was that I wasn't listening to you, or you didn't feel like I was. And you didn't feel like I was really interested in listening to you, no matter what you have to say, whether it's true or false. No, no, the person was listening, but wasn't, like you say, really listening. What did you say? Really listening? And were you listening to the other person? Probably not. Thinking I was, but probably not. And did he feel like you were listening to him? Actually, in some ways, I think when he said to you, you know, you got the problem, I don't, so if you didn't have it, we wouldn't have a problem, that kind of implication.

[15:06]

In a way, it seemed like you did listen to him. Because then you thought of maybe like trying to check out of your opinion. At first, yes. Yeah. So I think maybe you did recognize him and did listen to him. But in his story, you didn't feel like he was doing his part. So there's the imbalance, so you have to work on that. So my question is, my way of dealing with it eventually was it seemed like an impossible situation. So I left. But that's, I guess, my question. If one person refuses to agree that there is a problem and stays that way, and the other person can't live with that, That seems to be the solution, right? If one person feels it's a problem, the other person refuses to recognize it as a problem, then what?

[16:07]

Then it seems like the only solution is for these people to split up or the other person to leave. Then it seems like that's kind of the same thing. Yes, indeed. then it seems like the only solution is to split up. It's not quite... I don't think it has to be that. I think there's another possibility. Another possibility is that you feel like this other person who does not agree, or whatever you want to say, or does not understand, or whatever you want to say, agree or understand. I think you can understand without agreeing. But anyway, they don't understand at least. and maybe don't agree, maybe you want agreement too. You can say whatever you want, okay? You can have agreement and understanding or just agreement, whichever you want. But you're saying if they don't agree, it's impossible, right? Yes. Well, I'm asking you. Yeah, and I'm suggesting that if you really feel like the person is doing both things, both that they're trying to understand you

[17:11]

And trying to understand you means they're not just sitting over here, I'll see you later, I'm going to go try to understand. But they're trying to understand you while actually getting what you want to give. And you feel like you are giving something. And also they're giving you something back so you're getting some feedback about their attempt to understand. Okay? They're trying to understand. You feel like they're trying. Okay? You don't have to leave. You can if you want, but you don't have to leave. In other words, some people are really, really slow. But they're trying to learn. An enlightening relationship, again, can be between people who are not necessarily on the same level. It can be a so-called student-teacher, parent-child, therapist-client, patient, doctor, patient.

[18:15]

Husband and wife are usually on the same par, but in some ways husbands are sometimes not quite up to speed with their wife. Sometimes. Sometimes men don't kind of understand certain things that their wife is trying to tell them. Sometimes the wife thinks of leaving because he's so emotionally backward. And I say, if he's trying to understand, you maybe don't have to leave him. If you feel like he's trying, it might be good to keep hanging there and be devoted to him and help him to try. Support him to try to understand you. Now you may wish to have somebody who's a little bit smarter, a little bit faster, but you can make that decision. That's okay. But if he's listening to you, you feel pretty well.

[19:18]

And he's telling you what he's understanding, even though it's not right yet. He hasn't got it. If he's trying, you might not have to leave. But even a husband who understands you, or a partner who understands you, but isn't listening, but just happens to understand you without listening, and also doesn't tell you anything about themselves... Their understanding is, you know, it's not really enlightening. It's dead. And they understand you kind of like, I don't know, they just happen to understand you somehow. But they aren't interested in you. So it's not enlightening. But this person, this retarded person, who doesn't quite understand what's going on, but is trying, might be worth staying with But maybe it's not very normal, like maybe it's not the kind of husband-wife relationship you'd want.

[20:23]

Maybe it's more like a therapeutic relationship and maybe you should transfer this person to a therapist and find somebody else to be your spouse. This person was a therapist. Yeah. Yeah, that's why he knew it was your problem. Sometimes therapists who are, sometimes people who are retarded are good therapists for other retarded people. You know? They can help because they're, you know, they experience that camaraderie of retardedness. But the point is that whatever level of development it is, both parties have to be doing their best, but some people just are slower than other people. But the people who are faster still might still might be willing to be devoted to this person if they're devoted back, even though they don't get certain stuff for a long, long time.

[21:31]

I'm kind of like one of those retarded people myself, you know? But a lot of people can see I'm trying. So they keep, you know, giving me chances to, you know, they keep telling me over and over, and they can see I'm trying to understand. So they They keep giving him more chances. So, I don't think you have to leave unless he's not listening and not trying and not telling you how he's trying. Because he could be trying but not express to you what it's like to be trying. So you don't have to sit there and sort of imagine how it is that he's trying. You can get information from him. That's a kind of a relationship. And in fact, it's exactly the kind of relationship you should have with that particular person who is understanding it in that particular way. There's some people who, you know, I mean, they're wonderful. They're like, you know, you meet them, they understand you perfectly, you know. They listen to you, you listen to them, you know.

[22:35]

They express themselves to you, you express yourself to them, you know. It's great. You understand each other. It's wonderful. No problem. relationships like that however don't necessarily um develop your buddhahood as much as the ones where people don't understand you because you don't need any patience with the one this happy kind of relationship you really can't become you know fully developed unless you're with people who are like ahead of you and like asking you to come along or behind you and you're waiting for them. Those are the kind of relationships that develop patience and other virtues in these difficult relationships. So difficult relationships are sort of part of what enlightening relationships are about. They're kind of the difficult ones. The other ones are sort of like, well, you know, fine, okay, let's move on to the next thing. So one might think that you should leave a relationship like that because it's so difficult.

[23:42]

But if it has these qualities of reciprocity, except for the exception of just not reciprocal understanding, if these other aspects of reciprocity are there, I think the reciprocal understanding could develop too. But the reciprocity that we have already will be enlightening. In other words, there's more enlightenment possible for both parties? Yes? Martha? I'm thinking, even though he thinks there's not a problem, if he could view with compassion her belief of a problem. Yeah. dealing with compassion would be something like listening to her. There would be some compassion on his part. If he listened to you long enough, you could probably sense that he had some compassion for you. But compassion wouldn't be enough. You'd also want him to have some wisdom.

[24:44]

Because it's a start. That's what I'm saying. Listening is a start. That's pretty good. And listening with some compassion, too, that he would want, because he's devoted to you, he would want you to be free of that problem. He would want you to be free of problems which he thinks are non-existent. You can want somebody to be free of a problem that's non-existent. Because it's non-existent in the sense that there's no basis to it, maybe, but they have a problem with it. Like some people are gorgeous and they think they're ugly. So you would want them to be free of that view, even though you realize there's no basis to it. Because they're not ugly. They just think so. Yes? Did you have a question? Yeah, in dealing with fear, part of it is revealing oneself, being willing to reveal oneself.

[25:49]

Right. He said fear, you know. In this revealing yourself, showing the person yourself so they can have something to recognize, there's often fear there. What are some things around creating a vest of trust there so that fear can be assuaged in you? What are some activities or ways of being that will assuage the fear? Well, the first thing that comes to mind that assuages the fear is what I've been talking about is that to come into the present, to stay in the present. It's not that you don't think of consequences of what you're doing. It's not quite like that. It's not like that at all, actually. But that you don't lean into the future. We need to, like, be aware of the fact that what we do has consequences without leaning into the future. So, like, for example, if we're talking, I would be aware of what... I would be concerned with whether what I say would be beneficial or not.

[27:01]

Okay? Without leaning into the future. If there's any self-concern... I could still, even if I have some self-concern, and I'm somewhat unenlightened to that extent, I could still consider whether what I'm saying or doing is beneficial or harmful. But there's no fear there necessarily. If I lean into the future, my self-concern gets activated in the form of fear. Fear is about me. That kind of fear. Fear... fear that I might do something harmful, that's not a detrimental fear. Even if you trust someone, you still might be somewhat afraid of doing something bad. If you're somewhat deluded, it is wholesome and helpful to be worried or afraid of doing something harmful.

[28:02]

Okay? But if you lean into the future... then the kind of fear for yourself comes up. Fear for yourself is different than fear for doing something wrong and harmful. If you stay in the present in the conversation, really stay in the present and don't lean in the future, and only be concerned for the welfare of others, then your fear calms down. That doesn't necessarily establish trust, but at least the fear is calmed. Then you listen, perhaps, which is an act of devotion, and you find out maybe that listening makes you develop trust, that you find out that you listening to somebody is not so bad, doesn't really hurt you. If you're also doing your work of standing where you are and being present, and you're showing the person something,

[29:05]

and you'll have certain feelings. Now, the part that's somewhat dangerous is that maybe if you ask for something, like, would you tell me... Well, actually, if you're listening, they're talking, so they're giving you something. So, in that way of listening and receiving, trust is starting to build. Namely, you realize that you can stand up, be present, and listen, and let the other person talk. And it doesn't destroy you because you're able to be present and awake. So listening to people and letting them express themselves really isn't that bad. You often will find. Now, if you listen to people and don't stand up while you listen to them, then you're just listening and just recognizing and then caving in, leaning back, not doing your part. That is dangerous. That is dangerous. That isn't enlightening. And that won't develop trust. But you're also contributing to the lack of trust being built because you're not standing up for yourself. in the sense of being present.

[30:07]

But if you can learn that you can listen to others, they can express themselves, and still you can be there and be expressing yourself right while they're talking, that you're doing something while they're expressing themselves, you're expressing yourself while they're expressing themselves, then you can move to the other step and start noticing, okay, I've been listening, I've been expressing myself, she's been expressing herself, has she been recognizing me or is she recognizing me? And you start looking, you also recognize whether she's recognizing you. If she's not, and this is a little bit risky, if she's not, you may want to ask for a turn to express yourself verbally or with certain articulate hand signals. Like this is one you might do. So then she stops talking for a while. And you check to see if she's noticed anything about you or if she's been listening to you. Have you been listening to my body, for example? And she might say, yeah, you've been standing up straight here and been looking quite attentive. I appreciate that. And in fact you were quite attentive and you were standing up and you were present.

[31:12]

She was noticing you. So you were expressing yourself and listening to her while she was expressing herself and turns out she was listening to you or watching you. Does that develop trust? I would think so. Yeah, I think so. What is it trust in? Trust in what? Trust that the person you're talking to can hear what you have to say. That's one. No. No. It doesn't trust that. That's just something, that's just an observation you made. She actually showed you she could listen. That's not trust. That's just, you have that piece of data. She was able to at that time. She may never listen to you again. I think what it shows trust in is it trusts in something much more important just than that. It's not trust that somebody else can listen to me. It's trust in an enlightening relationship. That's what made the trust grow. If somebody listens to you, that doesn't necessarily make you trust, because they could listen to you now and forget the next moment, or also they could listen to you and be hating you or not care about you.

[32:15]

But this is a case where she was listening to you and she was noticing what you're doing accurately, and also she was telling you something about herself. She wasn't just sitting over there taking notes on you, developing a dossier. She was telling you about herself and you actually weren't saying anything. I think it develops trust in what develops trust, namely that kind of relationship. You don't know what other people are going to do. You don't know if somebody's going to listen to you. So the fact that they listen to you today doesn't mean that they're going to listen to you, that they will listen to you. It means they could at that time. You trust that they could at time, but it's not really trust. You know, if the rain falls, you don't trust that the rain falls, you just see the rain falls. But then you don't trust that it's going to rain again, do you? There are certain probabilities that it will rain, but you don't trust it. When a person listens to you, I don't think the fact that they're listening to you necessarily would make you trust. You could say, yeah, they did that time, but they don't think they're going to do it again. That's also not correct. But what you can trust, I think, is you can trust that kind of relationship that happened that time.

[33:23]

You see, that kind of relationship... creates, is trust and creates trust. That's what I have to say. What do you think? Yeah, and it does keep you in the present. I appreciate what you have to say about the forward leaning part. When you're talking to somebody and you lean into the future, you often get scared. Even a nice conversation, if you lean into the future, you get scared. You think, Jesus, it's a nice conversation. You lean into the future. Maybe it's not going to go on. What can I do to keep it going? That's too bad, you know. Come back. The thing that will keep it going is to not lean into the future and to work with it right here. That keeps it going. Not keeps it going, but that takes care of it right now. And you just keep doing that, it'll keep happening that way. But if you get concerned for keeping it going, you lost it. You don't trust the relationship. You don't trust being present. What do you trust? Nothing. And you're afraid on top of it. I guess you trust being biased and leaning into the future because you just did it.

[34:24]

Does that make sense to everybody? Yes? Could you tell me how leaning in the future is going to help you think about being skillful? Yeah, that's what I was saying before. You can think about the consequences of your action without leaning into the future. If I have something to say to you, I can consider, now, could that possibly be harmful to her without leaning into the future? Well, like I said, being afraid of wrongdoing, That's not leaning into the future, and that's not fear of the type where you're afraid for yourself.

[35:33]

Being afraid of wrongdoing, of hurting other people, is not really selfish, although you still may have some delusion about individual identity as being a separate person. In other words, you haven't really understood interdependence yet, and therefore you're still thinking in terms of personal power, okay? you're still somewhat deluded. And in that state, it is good to consider whether what you might do would be harmful or inappropriate. But you can do that without leaning in the future. And the difference is that one, the concern for not harming beings feels very different for the concern for what's going to happen to you. The concern for not harming beings is wholesome and actually leads to happiness. The concern for what's going to happen to me is not exactly unwholesome, it's just basic delusion, and it makes me anxious. And if I lean into the future, that concern turns into fear. If I stay in the present, that's not so hot either because I'm anxious.

[36:37]

But that anxiety is fundamentally related to the problem. Whereas fear is compounded by moving into the future where I can't actually deal with it, and then I create this ramification. Now, the advantage of being afraid is that you can be courageous, and that's nice. But I think it's better to sustain the present and be concerned to not do inappropriate things, and even be a little afraid of doing inappropriate things. That will lead to happiness, and that happiness... not just happiness, but also lead to the wonderful result of helping you become more aware of your state. Because one of the main benefits of being harmless while you're still involved in karma, of being harmless, is one of the rewards of that is you can be more aware of how you feel. It improves your awareness, deepens your awareness so you can become aware of what the fundamental problem is. But leaning into the future is somewhat distracting.

[37:42]

Any kind of leaning is somewhat distracting. Leaning into the past when you're meeting someone, thinking about what they did yesterday, and leaning into that, you feel bad and worried. Being sorry about what you've done in the past that's harmful, that helps you be present. Is that clear, the difference there? Could you hear what she said? She said it's so hard not to hurt people. It's hard not to imagine that you are. In fact, they're telling me you are.

[38:43]

If you're not expressing anything that isn't so benign and so such a pablum that it has no... Did you hear what she said? It has no... She says it's hard not to hurt people unless what you express is so benign and so pablum-like that almost no one would be offended by it. Right? No one except, guess who? Guess who would be offended by it? Who would it hurt? You would be hurt. Who else would be hurt? Who else would be hurt? I think you would. Yeah. I would be hurt. You would hurt me. I know that, so I don't do that with you, but... Anyway, I'm just saying that even then you hurt people. I'm just making your case more... And she's saying it's hard not to hurt people unless, but even then you hurt people. There's no way to avoid hurting people. Doing harm means? Well, I don't know exactly, but the point is you're concerned not to.

[39:53]

You don't really know for sure what it is, but you don't want to. You don't want to. You don't want to hurt people. That's your thing. You're concerned about that. You don't know what it is, but you try not to. Then you try to be helpful, and maybe you hurt people. Now, there's relative kinds of hurt. Some kinds of hurt, you can hurt people sometimes by standing up out in the courtyard. Somebody can walk by and be hurt by you. You certainly didn't mean that, to be standing in the courtyard looking at the birds to hurt somebody, but somebody could be hurt by you. In other words, they see you and they feel hurt. But it's not because you intended to hurt them. And it's not because you even knew they were there, but they can feel hurt. Most, you know, a good share of the hurt that you can avoid is the hurt that you actually intend to do, when you actually want to hurt somebody. That kind of hurt, you know, you might miss, you might be unsuccessful, but that kind is the kind particularly that you'd like to, like, not do, right?

[40:55]

But the kind that happens when just being you hurts people or is a problem for people, that kind you really, you can't avoid. You don't what? You can't avoid it. You can't avoid it. Buddha seemed to have hurt a few people. You know, just by being Buddha, it was kind of offensive to some people. Because some people wanted to be Buddha. And he took over the Buddha thing. They didn't like that he was this great master because they wanted to have all his disciples. So he kind of hurt them. They felt offended. But he didn't mean to hurt them. And did he really hurt them? Not really. And he didn't want to hurt them. Definitely not. During the early phases of his career he did sometimes think of hurting people. Occasionally. He noticed that in himself. And he really worried about acting on that stuff, and I guess didn't, except mentally, for the most part.

[42:02]

But when he saw any kind of negative energy, he really learned that that was no good for him. But still, even as a great teacher that he was, he still sometimes hurt people. And then he would hope that he could teach them how to use that hurt in a way that would help them. So I'm just saying that, basically what I'm talking about is being present, but I'm saying that doesn't mean, and I'm saying not leaning into the future, but it doesn't mean you're not concerned, and it doesn't mean that you're not committed to drop all behaviors that would hurt people if you possibly could. Okay? But you probably can't. But you still try. We try a whole bunch of things that are really kind of like almost impossible. We still try, though. Like staying with retarded husbands and stuff. What's going on inside of me gets so activated in relationships

[43:13]

But I'm doing that, but I'm not a doctor. But as you were speaking, I'm remembering how Dave was telling me, I have a more accurate understanding of what's going on, but the judge or whatever is flying around didn't want to take the responsibility for also being a judge because they didn't have that to do with Yes. Yes. And how do you get that accuracy with your own perceptions? What? Well, practice what? Practice a thought is a thought, a feeling is a feeling. Did you hear that? Did you hear what she said?

[44:15]

No? I said, how can you have accuracy about your own, did you say thoughts? Perceptions. I said, how can you have accuracy about that? And she said, practice. I said, practice what? She said, a thought is a thought, a feeling is a feeling, a color is a color, a sound is a sound. that's a practice okay you heard about that practice now you have it's called the practice of when you hear something you let that just be something you hear when you see something you let it be something you see when you have a perception you let it be a perception when you have a thought you have a thought okay that's called standing upright and being present okay something comes up what do you do you stand there and let it be that thing Something goes down, you stand there and let it go down. You let things be.

[45:17]

In other words, you don't lean into them, you have no biases, you don't mess with them, you don't say, let's keep this thought trend going, let's stop this one. And when you have this kind of non-meddling presence, things start revealing their fullness to you. You start to see what things are. For example, when you let a sound just be a sound, and a color just be a color, and you really let it just... And then finally you let that happen so much so that really in the sound there's just the sound, and in the face there's just the face. There's not the face and, you know, what's going to happen, where are we going to go, does this person like me, blah, blah, blah. Just the face. Maybe the next minute there's, does this person like me, but that's just a thought, does this person like me. When you let things be like that, really, then you stop identifying with these things. How do you do that? Hmm? How do you do that? How do you do what? When you say something, you say, your mind automatically starts saying, oh, I say this, and I remember saying that, and then you say that, and then that happens automatically in your mind.

[46:26]

Well, did you notice you say, you went like this, you said, my mind does this, and then it does that, and then it does that, and then it does that. Did you notice that? Okay. So first, the mind does this. You're there. Okay? You let it just do that. Then the mind does that. You're there. You let it do that. Then the mind does that, you're there and let it do that. Then it does that, you let it do that. Which each thing, you're present with each thing. You say, how do you do that? Just, you're simply, purely present with each thing. You see the face, but you don't think what it looks like. Next moment, you think what it looks like, but you just let it be think what it looks like. The mind's doing all these things, but each thing you're just present with. And it's possible to be present with things because you are. This is not some new thing that you've got to add to what's going on. You just have to get with the program. And that means you have to give up being someplace else. So then you're there with each thing. You let each thing be its thing. And when you train yourself to be like that, pretty soon, each thing that happens is just the thing that's happening.

[47:30]

That's all. And you don't identify with it or disidentify. And this is a Then you start having accurate perceptions, and also accurate perceptions is, an accurate perception is, a perception is just a perception, that's an accurate perception. Or an inaccurate perception is exactly an inaccurate perception. But really, a perception is just a perception. And when you let things be like that, there's no identification. When there's no identification, there's no here and there, there's not any more anxiety, that's called the end of anxiety. So active perception is part of end of anxiety. Then you bring that into relationship with somebody by doing that interactively, which is harder. Because you need the other person to do it with you. Right? It's complicated. I think you're next. I mean, you're this. You're it. I have a question about working in relationship.

[48:35]

Yes? Well, I've been apologizing a lot lately. I've noticed. Sounds good. OK, well, that's kind of the question. Have they been apologizing back? No, they say thank you. That's good. That's kind of an apology back. So I was wondering, how much do I need to apologize Because after a while it feels like I'm apologizing for the same thing again and again. And although I'm aware that I am doing it, usually it's a little after the fact. But how much of it is just accepting who I am and then how much of it is seeing that there's room for improvement and so cleaning up after myself and trying to tidy up okay so let's see you're asking you're apologizing a lot and you're doing it so much that you're wondering that you're worried that you're repeating yourself well no like how much do I need to be am I being overly sensitive like overly sensitive to your own mistakes or to other people like maybe I'm more sensitive to them and are you apologizing to because you feel like they're sensitive to you yeah huh yeah

[49:58]

It does, but I don't know if that's exactly an apology. Is it an apology? Are you apologizing for something you feel was a mistake? I'm apologizing often because I feel like... Well, it didn't feel like a mistake. It felt like my behavior was what it was, but that person didn't necessarily benefit from it. Maybe felt not so good about it. Wait, you mean, is it something like, you might say something, and your timing might be a little off, and they might feel offended, something like that? Or you might, like, step on somebody's toes? Or that I didn't respond, like, or I ignored them. Yeah, so they felt like you ignored them, or you did ignore them? I did ignore them. You did ignore them? Yeah. Well, you know, there's a lot of reasons why we ignore people, right?

[51:04]

But I think that's a really good thing to apologize for. And it's not really about sensitivity. I mean, some people you ignore and, you know, they don't care. But still, it's good to apologize. I think a lot of people come up and apologize to me for things that I don't notice. But I don't say, well, you know, it doesn't count then. If you ignore me, it's okay if you apologize to me for ignoring you. That might be a lot of apologies coming my way now. But that's okay because for you to ignore somebody is a mistake. So I think if you ignore somebody and you apologize for that, now if they got hurt by it, which they might, then I think your apology might be in some ways a little bit more intense because they felt offended. I think you can actually, it can undermine somebody's practice in a way, you know, if you ignore them. Sometimes some people... might be discouraged about relating to you, which wouldn't really be good if you ignore them. So that's something you probably wouldn't want to apologize for.

[52:07]

And if you keep ignoring them over and over, then I think apology might be done over and over. If you keep doing it over and over, maybe you'll say, well, maybe I'll just start paying attention to them and then I won't do all this apologizing. even though they're really difficult to pay attention to, these people. But in some ways, it comes out to be economically better to pay attention in the first place rather than apologize to them afterwards because you've got to remember all that time in between when you ignore them and when you have to apologize. Whereas if you just pay attention in the first place, you don't have to remember anything. You seal your relationships. You have a relationship and it's over. When I became... abbot you know around the time I became abbot I started to change my behavior a little bit in a sense of I started to not postpone things so much because I realized if I postponed them I'd get overwhelmed by all the things postponed and I started more and more to try to like finish everything on the spot so I got more in a situation of people when they when they would ask me can I talk to you I would usually say how about now and

[53:18]

Now, I have appointment secretaries, so most people don't ask to come up and talk to me and make appointments, because I could spend all my time making appointments and never have a chance to talk to anybody. But still, some people do come up and say, can I talk to you sometime? And I almost always say, how about now? Because if I say yes, I can either say, go talk to my secretary, or now, because I can't remember when it's going to be. So if somebody says they want to talk to me about something sometime, I'd either make an appointment with the secretary or do it now. And you know what? They almost never want to do it now. So then it's all over. Except for people who say, could I talk to you for just a few minutes? Those people, I always say, make an appointment. Thank you. but somebody just says or somebody just says can I talk to you now or sometime I try to talk to him right now because postponing these things gets really messy so I try to seal everything on the spot complete the interaction right away make appointment with my secretary completes it that's it but this few minutes that thing never can be ended

[54:45]

I learned that, boy, those are, there's no, they never stop. If you talk for three hours, they're still not done. Because they don't want to ask for how much they really want, you know. Because they know there's no end to it. So there's no point in having a conversation now. Yes? Pat? Yes. If you know that you're wearing a garb, and you think this is what's happening, that you're walking around and seeing a person, and you think it's going to be one of those animals, And it seems like kind of a disgusting thing to practice it because your motive is to suffer. If there is a way to practice it, to practice for yourself, that because you're a Buddha, and a soul, how do you more be a Buddha? You've got great health, or box of the Buddha. Can I answer that question in stages? First you said, being in the present is such a wonderful pain killer.

[55:49]

It's not actually a pain killer, it's the practice of patience. It doesn't kill the pain, it just makes it possible for you to be present with it and patient with it and not run away from it. That's what being present does. It's the practice of patience. The pain is still there, it's just that since you're dealing with it in moments, you can deal with it. Since you're not dealing with it in minutes or hours or weeks, it doesn't overwhelm you anymore. It's the way the Buddha handles pain. The Buddha had physical pain, but the Buddha handled physical pain moment by moment. Therefore, he could handle any pain in these momentary installments. Okay, so that's not a painkiller, okay? But then you said, is it selfish? And I don't think it's selfish. It's not selfish for you to practice patience with your pain. It's not selfish. It's a favor to us for you to practice patience because if you practice patience, not only will that take better care of you, which we appreciate, but it definitely would take better care of us because you're less likely to impatiently flare up and be angry at us because you're avoiding your pain.

[56:56]

That's right. You won't be a burden, you won't be a hazard. You won't be a burden or a hazard. We won't have to take care of you because you're a wreck, plus you won't be wrecking us because you're a wreck. So you do us a favor by practicing patience. Now that's one part of it. The next part is the part about love. And that's the part where not only does being present in pain help you take care of yourself and protect others from inappropriate anger that comes from impatience with your own pain, cruelty because you're avoiding facing your own pain. It protects us from that. But you're there to give yourself to people. The real you is there. And if someone loves you and you love someone, the best thing you can give them is you in the present. And that's what they want, is you in the present. And that's why I said to Linnea, if you don't give what you really have to give, it hurts people who care about you, who want you. If you love someone, that's where you love from. And when you really love someone, that's really hard to love them from that spot because that's so intense.

[58:07]

In some ways, it's easier to relate to people you don't feel such a strong passion for because those people you do feel it for, you're so likely to want to veer off into some other world where it's not so difficult to be present with that love. But that's what you have to give and that's what they need and that's what they want. Even though, and this may be part of the negative feedback thing I was talking about, even though they sometimes say, don't be that, it's because it's so much what they want that they can barely stand it. The ultimate familiarity is almost like enmity. When you get close to the closest thing, it's very difficult when there's the slightest bit of difference between When there's no difference, it's fine. But as you get closer, it's really touchy. It's really touchy. You kind of want to get control of it or something. And it doesn't want to be touched or controlled.

[59:12]

It wants to be respected and acknowledged. Yes, Suchitra? Yeah, in some ways. Yeah. Right. They reflect you because they show you your impatience. Yeah, in those ways. But in other ways, they might not be able to come forth with something that you really need to give up yourself. Well, yes, maybe so. Maybe they won't be all you need. Maybe you need three other teachers or three other relationships like that to give you the full complement of what you need to be a Buddha. Like I said, three. But I mean infinite. You need infinite beings.

[60:12]

So you don't expect one person necessarily to do it all. But like in the case that Liz was talking about, this person maybe in one way was not able to come up and understand, but maybe logically he was her superior by pointing out to her that she didn't have any problems, there wouldn't be any, you know, stuff like that. So they might be able to open you up to other realms which you're not interested in all, like, you know. Yeah, like Lod did. They might be really good at symbolic logic or something, and they could teach you about that, and you could feel your resistance to that realm of existence. But in other areas, they're not up to your speed, so you teach them. You teach them how to smell roses, and you teach them how to smell various other things that they're not sensitive to. You educate them, and that's not even, but other areas, maybe they're ahead of you. And then anyway, we have to work with everybody. So if you've got somebody there, let's work with this person. Don't expect them necessarily to do everything that you need. And part of what they have to do also is recognize that if they're not giving you everything you need, then they have to allow you to get it from other places then.

[61:21]

And similarly, you should allow them, if you won't listen to them talk to you about symbolic logic, they should be able to let them go play with somebody else that will. So let him go to a math club and let somebody else go bowling and let somebody else go to the Zen center. So we have to realize that to protect each other's need for what we need. But don't expect everything from that. And you always get something from a relationship if the other person's doing their part. And if they're not, we don't let them continually not do their part. That's not helping them because then in some sense we're doing their work for them. We shouldn't do other people's work for them. That's not being helpful. Okay? Well, is that enough for today?

[62:15]

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