and there's actually no limit to the opportunities for practice, so you have plenty of time. As a result, you can work on everybody's good qualities. In other words, you can sort of say, well, this person may have problems, but all I can see is their Buddha nature. So you can spend this life, instead of rushing to get to people's problems, you can spend your life enjoying people's liberation. But it turns out that that's exactly what it's like to meet people's problems and liberate them, is that you meet them and you don't see them in the first place. And also with your own. It's not that you have to actually come and smack up against your problems in order to be free of them. But that's one way to do it. But that way to do it will partly be determined by your karmic thinking. So if you think a certain way, you're going to have a very hot practice. If you think another way, your practice will be cool. But it could be lazy if you saw people as having problems, but sort of couldn't do anything with them. That would be lazy.

[01:06]

But if actually everybody you meet all your whole life, all you see is liberation, that means you're actually turning all the whatever it is over into freedom. You're taking each form and making it empty. And you can allow yourself to do that because there's no hurry. When are you going to start? Well, since there aren't any bad habits, you really don't have to start. But if there are bad habits, then they're inexhaustible. And if they're inexhaustible, then it's just a question of when you want to start working on them. And what your time scale is. So do you want to, and here's a question, it's a decision of whether you want to spend all your time just working on people's bad habits, and whether you want to sort of look at the bad habits for a little while before you liberate them, or whether you want to liberate them even before you see them.

[02:11]

It's your decision. And, but to see every, to right away now, already see everyone's, all everyone's problems completely liberated, well then you wouldn't have any more work to do, would you? then you'd be a Buddha. Because that's what Buddha sees. Buddha sees that everybody's all worked out. But maybe you can't allow yourself to be a Buddha. So you'll see. So if you said you can't allow yourself to be Buddha, you'll see people's problems. So don't worry. But if you should happen not to see any more problems, uh, If they're not aware of it, then that's not so good, is it?

[03:16]

For them to really be really, really well liberated from their problems, they should know it. That's why we have the matriarchs, too. Anyway, you have to see it that the people know themselves, too. Just for you to know that they're in deep samadhi is not enough. They must know, too. That's right. So what the Buddha sees is not only are they in deep samadhi, but they think they're Nip Samadhi. So on one level, Buddha knows people think that they're not liberated. People think they are liberated, they are okay, but they have various thoughts that they aren't. Buddha sees that.

[04:19]

But Buddha also sees that they're just thoughts that they aren't, and really they are. And actually they know that they are. That in fact, given the circumstances, the way they're thinking, that the way that they think, that's exactly the way that they see that they are liberated. Their view of their liberation is through their own karnic eyes. And that's how they see the fact that they're liberated. And when you truly feel that for each person, then although you see people have different depths or whatever, each one is liberation. And when you actually feel that way, rather than me just saying those words, or when I actually feel it, rather than just saying that, when I actually see that this person's narrow vision of their liberation is actually the way liberation looks through them. That's actually what it looks like. And when you put those kind of glasses on, that's exactly what the truth looks like.

[05:20]

And it couldn't be any other way. And there's no better world than that. When I actually can see that and I'm actually there and I'm not wishing it would be otherwise, for every being I meet and for every emotion I experience and for everything that happens, that's what Buddha is. I don't know. It's the process. Anyway, now it's getting late. So I'm willing to stay a little longer and keep talking about this death business, if anybody wants to stay. And people who have to go can go. So happy break. Let's just have a break. A highly evolved and deeply liberated person, how are they crazy? In the same way that such a person is crazy, in the same way as a person in our heart, or in the same way do they take limited liberation?

[06:28]

Maybe they just try it on, see what it's like. And it may be somewhat more tempting to them to really kind of, you know, take hold of that one, than it is to take hold of certain forms of insanity. But, strictly speaking, our hardship is a form of insanity. It's the, it's, it's, it's, it's maybe the most, next to, next to Pratryeka Buddhahood, it's the most, it's the most delicious, most wonderful form of insanity. And there's other kinds of insanity also that are quite nice. What? Shravikas are our hearts. But it's extremely high quality insanity. Very high quality.

[07:34]

As a matter of fact, it's enlightenment of a certain kind. Most problems are evaporated in that form of insanity. But to think that you can grab nirvana is a little bit weird. Grasping. The normal idea of insanity, because if you didn't grasp, you'd be put away instantly. No. You would not be put away instantly. People would come and worship you. That's right. So they say, you know, they have these stories.

[08:37]

If Jesus came today, they'd lock him up. Okay? But if Jesus came today, he wouldn't come like he came last time. It's true. If he did come just like he came last time, they would lock him up. Barbed wire stuck into his rib. What? Yes, but they worshipped him too. So they might lock him up, it's true, but he would have lots of great disciples if they locked him up. It wasn't so long after Jesus lived that there was many hundreds of thousands of great meditators practicing his way, or so they say they were.

[09:39]

He might have not thought they were so good. Yes? There was a question I had for . . Well, it depends on how you do that meditation, but if you do it in a certain way, if you meditate on life as a spark, it might be that

[10:46]

it might be that you could do this thing called liberating yourself from the karmic determination of your life because if you look at life as a spark you may also be able to see how it is that you how you dreamed up life how you kind of made this spark called life And if you could see that, how life is a spark that somebody makes, then you might be able to be free of these implications of your thinking, which we call life. It's not so much it would change the way you think. It is a change in the way you're thinking. So meditation is a different way of thinking from karmic thinking. Now, if meditation is not a different way of thinking, then it's called karmic meditation.

[11:49]

And there are some karmic meditations. And some karmic meditations are kind of preparations for non-karmic meditation. But actually, karmic meditations really aren't karmic. And also, like all karmic thoughts, not really karmic. But in fact, anyway, we think we're thinking karmically. Therefore, that's what we mean by karmic thinking. And we think we're meditating karmically, that's what karmic meditation is. We think we're meditating in order to produce an effect, in order to improve our situation, in order to calm our mind. That way of thinking about meditation is karmic. But if you meditate not to make yourself calm, but as a celebration of the calmness which is already there, then that's not karmic. But nonetheless, it's better to sit and make yourself calm than not, because in fact you're sitting there and making yourself what you already are, so after a while you'll catch on.

[12:57]

So it's all right. So to sit and meditate and see life as a spark, and that you're making this spark, is a different way of thinking. if you do it a different way, and, uh, that'd be good, good to do. But, I don't think it's, um, I just, that's, that's like a, something that has to do with mind. We're talking about something that doesn't have to do with mind today. This is, uh, this is to adjust our concepts about life, this discussion. And, uh, Not everything conditioned has results. Some things that are results don't have results. That's what we think. So that's what they do. Okay, now back to anything more on life?

[14:03]

Should we get out of life and get to death now more? What? Let's talk about death. Okay. Because, I mean, there's no end. This is not an end process. Okay, now we come to death. So, they have these four alternatives because it says that it can happen that one dies as an exhaustion of life. See? Ayus. Ayus. kshayat kshaya means kshaya means to cut so the cutting of ayus that's one kind of death without cutting the merit so you can have the lifespan can die according to this shastra the lifespan can die

[15:08]

without the merit dying. So that means that the life could be exhausted, the life projection could be exhausted, but the merit not exhausted. So you can have a lifespan and during that lifespan or prior to that lifespan you could have a certain store of merit, a store of health and vitality for example. Okay? And that health and vitality, the implications of that health and vitality exceeds the lifespan. It's not exhausted. You've got, you know, people are going to send you presents tomorrow. And you're going to... In a sense, yes. I mean, if you... If you're dying now, if the life span is ending and there's going to be entering into this intermediate realm and the consciousness is going to reincarnate, then if you've been doing meritorious acts, that will have a good influence on your, for example, choice of your next birth.

[16:29]

If you've been meditating a lot, then you'll be better able to see what's happening in the intermediate realms and as you choose birth you may be able to stay awake as you go through the birth process. Will it carry to the precept? Does it carry through? I don't think taking precepts carries through. When you die, you lose all your auto-engine optics. So precepts don't carry through. But a general skill and detachment, things like that, they will be useful. And the fact that you were a good monk, that would be useful. But the priesthoods don't actually carry through. You have to take him again in the next life, with the next body.

[17:57]

Aved and Aptis help you with karma. They don't help you with the freedom. I mean, they don't... They help you or hurt you, in a sense, but you don't need Aved and Aptis to be free. There's good Aved and Aptis and bad Aved and Aptis. Okay? Good ones kind of, you know... Good ones are like being in a nice, safe amusement park. Slides are well-engineered so that they take you right to nice, grassy places if you don't fly off the edge. Bad avijnioptis are like a dangerous amusement park that keeps sliding you into alligator pits and stuff. But you can be free in either kind of situation. Abhijñāptis are due to karma. They don't come about by liberation. At the moment of insight, it isn't like a whole bunch of abhijñāptis go flying off and get set to tell you how to have further insights.

[18:58]

The insight itself is not an abhijñāpti. Merit is part of karma. The merit is part of karma. But not all merit comes through, not all merit, as you know so well, not all merit is associated with vijnapti and avijnapti. Let's see. Well, see, merit is not vijnapti. Merit is like you get... Good things happen to you. What is that Avajñāpti? Avajñāpti is like structures in consciousness which determine what you do. Avajñāpti is like there's a wall in front of me and I have to walk around it.

[20:03]

So I change the way I walk, negotiate through the objects of consciousness. But merit is like that I feel comfortable or something. or that the world lets me sit and meditate on my avijinaptis. Good avijinapti is meritorious, actually. Good Avvijñāpti is a nice thing to have. But some things that are meritorious aren't Avvijñāpti. For example, to carry the metaphor further, it's like Avvijñāpti is what makes me sort of go like this instead of like this.

[21:06]

If I go like this, I breathe my shins and my thighs. If I go like this, I walk around here. Abhijniakti is going like this and coming here and sitting down and meditating. And without the Abhijniakti, I might have walked over here and gotten in all kinds of trouble. That's a demeritory situation. which I get into because I haven't blocked myself from it by doing certain things, which now stop me from that. The odd vision activities are either psychic or these physical structures that the Vibhashigas talk about, which stop me from getting involved in these activities. If I got involved in these activities, that would be unfortunate for me. So I go over here and I get involved in me, or I come over here and somebody actually, I can also see the material.

[22:10]

But the favorable circumstances are not the Abhijñāptis. Abhijñāptis are the structures to which I wind up in meritorious situations. And if it's bad Abhijñāptis, then they force me. Then I start moving, and I have to go through here. What I thought before makes me go right into this little sod. So bad Abhijñāptis are like paddle shoots. And good Abhijñāptis are like nice coaches that take you out in the country for fucking afternoon. You get into a nice car and go out in the country and have a nice picnic. That calls like a meritorious situation. And you don't get that from being naughty. You get that from being good. Yeah, and could you use merit as a synonym for thought? Merit as a synonym for thought? Yeah, eliminate the obnoxious doctrine altogether. You can talk about meritorious thought. But what you mean by meritorious thought is the kind of thought that gives you merit.

[23:15]

Merit is like a quality in good stuff. It's good fortune. Merit are benefits that come to you. Merits are more like nice aspects of your existence. So goods and qualities that sort of come to you are the result of your good thinking. Blessings. Good fortune. Yes? Yes. Well, you don't necessarily, but it's likely. You go into the intermediate state and you have all these possible doors to go to. You have six doors to go to from there. And there they are sitting there. And when you're in an intermediate state, The fact that you're there means that you're not in the other ones. Namely, that you're just sort of sitting there in your room.

[24:20]

Yeah, you can go all six places. That's interesting, isn't it? But you've just come from, you just sort of have recently come from kind of one of them. And when you sort of were just recently sort of saying, I feel exhaustion of the action of ripening from the objects of joy. So there you are, you know, and you're not that interested. You're kind of uncommitted. And that's sort of, it's kind of like, you know, like that. I'm out of that one. Yeah, okay. So, okay, what's happening here? Kind of like that, you know. You just robbed a bank and almost got your head shot off, or did get your head shot off, and somehow you got repaired, and And now here you are, and you walk into some situation, and you just sort of, you're alive, you know, kind of. And so then, okay, still here, huh, okay. Huh, well, now what?

[25:25]

So there's a while there, you know, you don't really know, you're kind of like, well, you know, I'm anything, I'm just, anyway, there's existence. Kind of that feeling, you know, that feeling. It often follows a state of escalation, which culminates in which you say, enough. You run out of the hectic situation. You run out of the thick cocktail party. You open the door and you stay on the balcony, you know. Here you are. Or you're out in the garden or something, outside the party. No longer all these people . There you are. You're out in the garden now. There you are in the green grass. There's the sky. You can go back in the party or you can do various things from there. You could climb a mountain and be exhilarated and go into the city and grovel around in the slums and rob some people.

[26:26]

You can do all kinds of stuff. But now you're just standing there in a garden, kind of a relief. But that gets boring sometimes. So you say, well, maybe I'll go someplace. So you might go back into the party. And the place you'd like to choose is not likely to choose, but your choice will have something to do with where you just were. You might react against or for the place you just were. And although the place you were You felt a real relief by being out of there. At the same time, you might go right back there again. Because all you feel relief, you feel like, well, I'll give it another try. Maybe now I'm refreshed. You'll be more interesting. So you might go right back where you came from. But what often happens is that when you first come out of the state, you see the escalation. And the disturbance and the annoyance, irritation that you found at the end of the last trip has now, in a sense, produced... You've now ejected yourself from that situation by deciding to die and now you're not so agitated in some ways.

[27:48]

And so when you look around at first, nothing looks very interesting. But as you become bored and give rise to more and more excitement, then these things start looking differently, as we said last time. And what was originally not very interesting now becomes somewhat interesting. And when it becomes interesting, you forget how it looked before it was interesting. So because you forget how it looked before it was interesting, namely because you forget how it looked when it wasn't interesting, you forget what wasn't interesting about it. For example, if you look at hell, when you're very calm, it looks, although it's maybe somewhat interesting, it also looks rather horrendous. But if you get angry, hell doesn't look so bad. If you're raging away, hell looks rather... The more raging you are, the more blind hell seems.

[28:53]

So if you're in an intermediate state, and you just sort of blind yourself, hell looks rather horrendous, although colorful. But as you yourself start to act or become attracted to rage, hell starts to look less frightening and more attractive. So then, as I said before, then instead of hell looking really dangerous, you start seeing the beautiful colors coming off the swords that chop people's heads off. And one of the famous examples is the necklace, the red-hot necklace that's around the shoulders of the hell beings start to look like a beautiful piece of jewelry. And you wish you had one of those lovely, those huge gold necklaces. I mean, each link in those necklaces weighs about five ounces. I mean, how grand to be a member of that community where everybody's dressed like a great monologue. So then you, because you like it, you go there.

[29:57]

And then they put the chain around you and you say, whoopsie, these things are hot. And actually they're not gold, they're red. But when you were angry and you looked, you looked pretty, you didn't look that bad. But before you were angry when you looked, you could see it, they were red hot. But the problem is that when you look at these things, first and you see the red hot torment situations it isn't like you're looking in this one box here called hell and you look back later and it's and it's still labeled hell and you know that it's changed but it's still hell that isn't the way life works this stuff isn't labeled it's just an experience you know and it looks such and such a way, and you're not interested in it, it comes back, then your state of mind changes, it comes back, the same situation comes back, and you see it again, you don't know it's the same one. You don't say, oh, this is hell, and now it doesn't look so bad because I'm angry.

[31:03]

No, it just comes back, and you say, hey, it looks pretty good. You don't know it's the same one, and then you kind of like it, so there you go. And why did you go there? because you're angry. The pivotal thing is it's because you're interested in anger that you go to hell. So it's not exactly, the Buddhist world is not exactly like big daddy sees you be angry and sends you to hell because you're naughty. There's no big daddy that's doing this to you or even some little mommy. It's rather that because you're really angry like to be angry, and you're quite good at it, that when you get yourself out of that situation finally, out of the anger and all the problems that arise with it, as you get bored with not having to do, you give rise to the angry view of things, and then when you see hell, it looks good. And so there you go.

[32:06]

So you go to hell not because somebody sends you there, but because you send yourself. You got angry, and then you had a chance not to go. You could have circumvented it, but because of the way you think, you see the mechanics of it? You just follow right through. And how can you go otherwise? Because you yourself are fulfilling it. There's no way out because you fulfill it. So we're the ones who make the machine work perfectly well. If we weren't cooperating, it would fall apart, but we do. And why do we? Because of the way we think. And if you see this, how it works, you won't go. Because you can't get in hell without liking it. And you can't like it without fooling yourself. And you can't fool yourself without fooling yourself without fooling yourself and so on. So none of these destinies will happen actually. Except as already predetermined.

[33:07]

There are certain inexorable ones. But once again, those don't happen either if you see through those. So the only ones that will happen are those that you haven't seen through yet. But some you haven't seen through. Although you've seen through this one, you haven't seen through other ones. If you've seen through all of them, then nothing will happen. But that's something you need encouragement about is that even though you see through some, other ones will happen to you. But none of them would happen if you saw through all of them. But But there's always the first one you see through, right? And you see through that first one, the other one, they're coming before you have a chance to see them. But then you see through another one, you can get the next chance, another one comes before you have a chance to see that. But little by little, more and more, you're putting energy into seeing through, and less and less into making, and then you can start to catch up on the implications as they come rolling on it, because they're coming fast. Okay? So back to death. And so there's death through exhaustion of action.

[34:15]

That's the ayus gets cut. Okay? And there's death through exhaustion of punya. Now this, I would suggest, means that you can die... You can lose interest prior to, I'm suggesting to you, and we'll see if we ever find somebody that texts to back it up, but I'm suggesting to you, I have texts to back it up. Lehmann Pan, his family's death stories, and the death stories of most Zen masters are, not most Zen masters, but a lot of Zen masters, are examples of death through exhaustion, of action that ripens in objects of joy. Okay? Tozan gets up there, gets up in the morning, he has his head shaved, he has his body bathed, he has a clean robe brought, he assembles the assembly, sits up straight, rings the bell and dies.

[35:20]

I would say that's an example of death or exhaustion, objects of joy. What? She was... Yes. See, the punya is running out. I say, well, he must have had some stuff he was still enjoying. I could get into it. Maybe I'd love to. I've suggested at a certain point a Zen teacher, this particular Zen teacher named Tozan, was feeling like he should go. At a certain point, although you've been a good teacher, you still feel like I probably should split. Somehow it's starting to stink. I've been around long enough. I could stay and teach some more, yes, but it doesn't seem right.

[36:23]

How could his point here run out if he was a great sign master? Please tell me. What? Well, that's okay. But more fundamentally, yes. Well, okay, that's good, too. But there's another one. Think about karma. That's also good, but there's another one. Yes? What? Yeah. He just, there was no more good stuff coming. A long time ago, he stopped making, doing karma.

[37:29]

He stopped doing good things. And he's collected all the good karma. There wasn't any leftover. And he was so good that he ran out of good stuff. He was so beyond good that he ran out of good stuff when he was only about 62 years old. Whereas bad monks like Jojo kept getting good stuff until they were 119. Zhao Zhao was so good when he was young. In other words, he was so hung up on good karma that he had this tremendous wealth of good stuff coming to him. He just stuck around year after year collecting it. It's just enjoyable to the end. But that's indistinguishable from all the other things you said. Namely, death was more interesting than life. Death was more fun than life. However, when he died, his monks... started screaming and crying, and they did it for such a long time that he saw something more fun to do. So he opened his eyes and said... So there was still some more fun.

[38:35]

He didn't know. But they convinced him that there was still some more punya to get. And there was. Having these mums cry for you, that's punya. But he had to tell them not to do it. And then they didn't do it anymore. So he got to die. But if they'd cried the next time, there would have been more punya and he'd have to stay and watch another show, have another feast to criticize them. But finally, when they actually sat there all detached, there was no punya. There was no more merit. They were just, here were his disciples. They could let him go. He didn't have any more karma to fulfill. All his good karma was gone. Forget about his bad karma. He didn't have any of that either. Because he wasn't going to be in our heart. So he sat up there, in good health, and turned the lights off. Then he realized, because he was making all the noise, that there was still some more enjoyable things, so he turned them back on. He says, okay, let's have some more fun. Then he says, but this fun we're going to have, it's the last fun we're going to have. You guys aren't supposed to trick me into having fun here.

[39:36]

You're supposed to just sit there and give me no fun. You're supposed to just say, okay, see you later, Bob. That's what you're supposed to do. Now don't forget that. Don't let me go, okay? And they did it. He'd say, oh, well, I guess I have to go. But his lifespan was not up. I mean, his lifespan was not up. I mean, he wasn't like, just, ah. I mean, the body was not polluted. I mean, he could sit up and yell at him. The lifespan wasn't up. There was still life going. But the objects. I mean, he was much more vital, obviously, at the end there than most people ever are. He had enough vitality to do that thing that he did. That's how he could come back, I would suggest to you. That's how he just chose death conscious. He really died. They saw it go away. But then he came back because it really wasn't exhausted.

[40:39]

There was implication to go over to here. But his, as you said, the most beautiful thing to do was to die. The thing he liked to do best was to die. That was the teaching he wished to give that day. But then they distracted him because they convinced him there was actually something more fun even than that. So he did something more fun. And he criticized them and had a big party. But then the next week, one week later, he tried it again. And that time, he did it. So these are examples I would suggest in our tradition of death at the exhaustion of There's no more objects of joy. But not necessarily, life is not exhausted. Now, for people that have no objects of joy, and life is ending, then there'll be no competition. Objects of joy are gone, they're just completely flaked out, they don't have any more interest, plus the body is coming to an end. Gregory Bateson, I think, is a case of he had objects of joy, but the body was getting to be, the lifespan was coming to an end.

[41:53]

But he still had lots of fun things to collect. He actually wanted to write some more books and play with some people. But the lifespan was over. Have you heard of other cases where people die born from natural death? For example, about eight years ago, they say, well, I guess I'll go smoke out and work any. Well, I guess I'll smoke out and do some sex. So if you just look out and out, the number of people that... Well, I don't know exactly, but there is another example of where the lifespan is coming to an end. The body is really getting kind of... That to me sounds like a case of lifespans that are growing, but objects of joy aren't.

[43:03]

Looks like they could live a little longer if they wanted to. there was something really interesting going on, they could stay around longer. Well, excuse me. They just know, by the way. you don't have to be enlightened to have run out of fun a lot of people run out of fun when they're quite young because there's no they have bad merit coming in they have unmeritorious situations coming in they aren't attractive of course and they aren't doing anything good so they don't have any benefits coming in and

[44:15]

But as somebody said, a lot of people, when they're in that situation, want to die, but they can't conjure up death consciousness. So what they do in that case is they kill themselves through the fact of avoiding causes of harm. They get themselves in a harmful situation, and they get to be dead that way. And under the situation of harm, they manage to The lifespan's not enough, but there's no punya around. Punya's already been cut, and somehow they can't think of anything good to do to get some punya coming. They've been trying, but by all the time, I get some punya, I get some merit. And of course, that's not what gives merit. Merit is not from trying to get merit. Merit is from being a nice little boy and girl, you know, sitting like this in class. I'm not trying to get anything good, but... Would you make me... Would you give me some merit for that?

[45:29]

So, that's what does it. Give me merit, give me merit. That doesn't do it, and a lot of kids get into that, so by the time they're 18... after grasping desperately for years to get merit, when they're 18, it looks like they're not going to ever get any. And in fact, that may be so. The only thing that could help them at that time was to start practicing Buddhism or something like that, that would say, hey, you're lucky. You don't have merit to distract you. Merit's also something you have to be free of. So these people in Ohio, it may be just that it looks like they're in pretty good health still, the fact that they're working away. But just day after day, there's no more merit coming in. They got into a style of life, probably these kind of people had some good things happening to them in the first place, probably. Probably they had the good merit of meeting somebody who thought they was attractive and having some nice kids.

[46:42]

But they got into a lifestyle that somehow wasn't pointing at producing. Or it just tripled out gradually. They got more and more enroutinized things that were just selfish hand-to-mouth existence, not really caring about other people, and it just dries up. And it's been one year or two weeks or five years or 15 years anyway, just sort of dragging along. And finally they say, it's really not going to be any better than this. And this isn't that interesting. So they just go and die. And they've been maybe tuning into that for a long time. So they know death consciousness fairly well, probably. And they finally just choose it. And it's not that bad, but it's just a general weariness with an uninteresting situation. In some of the cases, it might be that the body comes to an end at that time, too. So it might be both. But usually if somebody's interested, they'll push things beyond the point of comfort like that. They'll go beyond, by quite a ways, the place where they can work.

[47:44]

Gregory, he kept alive, partly because there's so many interesting people around talking to him and trying to help him. and even after people stopped trying to help him people were still interested in him so he hung around and another thing which another side effect or side possibility is that some people because they have really interesting lives are not familiar with what death consciousness is they just don't happen to know about it because of their if you're a Zen priest I think you learn what death consciousness is pretty well because you're kind of hanging around it a lot As a matter of fact, when you're with people that die, it's pretty tricky. Because you almost die yourself. The only difference is, although you can almost taste the death consciousness, you don't particularly want it. But it's almost like, when I was with him, it was almost like, sometimes it was almost like, I didn't know if I'd come back.

[48:49]

I felt kind of like, gee, I might go with it. But I didn't want it because I didn't have this huge mass of old body that was sort of, gee, this is really a drag, you know. Then I think if I was going, I might have decided to do it. But it's almost like you're doing it. You're almost right there and you can almost, you can feel it and it's very It's very tangible. So I think if you spend, if you're aware of that kind of thing during your life, you can die anytime you want. But some people, although they're interested, so they extend themselves far beyond where their body might even go, sort of way up to the edge of where their body can go before it really just completely starts to compost under their nose. They get to that point, but they're unfamiliar, and they'd actually just soon die, but they're unfamiliar with death consciousness.

[49:51]

They don't know how to grab it. It's right there all the time. You can do it any time, any place. It's just a type of thought. You can do it any time. It's not like it's waiting there and you only get delivered to you when you're 66 or something. It's always there. It's a type of thought. You can take it at any age. Of course you can take it at any age because children die. And you can see children in various circumstances that they die. It's always right there. It's just a question if you choose it and you have to want it. And if you know it and don't want it, it's just one of the possibilities of consciousness and you just don't choose it. Just like being angry, you don't get angry. Yes?

[50:56]

Okay, possibly. Another interesting meditation is a story called, what's his name, Bartleby the Scribner by Melvin. Read that story. It's interesting to get you into that space. I'd rather not. I prefer not. Yes. What? Did Gregory Radisson, did Putin see her death consciousness at the moment that he stopped leaving? Did he perceive it actually at the moment that he died? No, not necessarily, but I think he did. I think when he stopped breathing, I think at that moment he decided to die. Other people don't necessarily do it that way. In other words, some people stop breathing and later they choose to have consciousness. If you choose to have consciousness, you'll probably stop breathing. Because breathing is due to desire, the breath. You breathe because you want to.

[52:00]

Nobody's making you breathe. Can't the punya of breathing continue after the actual breath? Breathing is not punya. It's not? It is not punya. Like a terminal? Breathing is a plague. Yes? In regards to terminal patients, they're like, you know, the alarm that you didn't need to be advised to be allowed to breathe. They die. Do they see death consciousness if there's someone like that? DEATH CONSCIENCE IS A TYPE OF CONSCIENCE, when you choose it, you will die. Because when you choose death consciousness, you say, I don't want to breathe anymore. So you stop breathing. Huh? He doesn't have to. You can just not... The reason why you inhale again is because you don't like to not inhale.

[53:03]

You don't like the... You care about how you feel. You care about how this body is. So you inhale because you want the air. You want it. You want it. You don't like this. I want hair. I didn't have to do that. How can you conceive it before you die? What? How can you conceive it before you die? Conceive it? Death consciousness. I mean, how many... I'm saying, if you conceive death consciousness, your body dies. When you think of death consciousness, there's no support for this breathing, for this... There's no desire to breathe again.

[54:11]

Sometimes a person is still interested in life. They want to keep living, but the body just won't do it. I mean, somebody comes in and takes your lungs out. Go ahead and try to breathe. You can't do it. Your karma is such that people have just taken your lungs away. That's your karma. You've got them to do that for you. That's a good trick. Anyway, once they do that, you can't keep breathing. You know you can't. So you say, OK, now I don't have lungs. OK, now what do I do? Well, this is a weird body I've got now. And, of course, everybody says, well, this person is not alive anymore because they don't have lungs. But, you know, we've gone through this before about whether there's still life there. It's a life environment, but it's not a human body anymore functioning because it doesn't have lungs. The person has not necessarily chosen death consciousness. They can choose it quite a while later. But most people choose it right around that time because

[55:23]

It's just, you know, what's the point? You can't... The reason for incarnating in the first place is because you want to move these arms and legs and play with your uncle. That's why you want human birth or cow birth or whatever it is, because you want to be one of those kind of beings. You want to work one of those kind of bodies. That's why you do it. Particularly, you want to work an adult body. But maybe, you know, it's possible that you wanted to work a child's body. There has to be a child in the neighborhood of the adults that are copulating and you really want to be one of the children. That's possible too. But most people want to be adult of the species that they get born into. What do you mean by choosing? In the same way that I mean choose every state of consciousness. If you get angry, you choose an angry state of consciousness. We don't want it now.

[56:32]

You're avoiding it now. When the body dies, when the body completely becomes a big mess, okay? When the body's healthy, you can choose death consciousness. Right now you can choose it if you wanted it. But you don't want it. Because you're interested in it. You're interested in all this punya you have. He has this punya that he likes. Yeah, see, people are patting you. Who knows what wonderful thing might happen to you tomorrow? So you're going to hang around. You don't want to go away. However, if you become very ill, you might decide. Well, I'm ill, and that's not a very poignant situation itself. Plus, there's not much else fun going on, so I think I'll die.

[57:32]

So you choose death consciousness. When you choose death consciousness, then when you choose that, then you die right away. Or you might get sick and say, no, it's still fun. Even though I'm sick and miserable, basically, since I'm here to practice, I'll hang out. I don't mind being sick. So, you stay. Now, it's also possible that because of not avoiding harm or, you know, ingesting lots of... too much sugar or too much amphetamines or whatever, the body goes... So there you are, your body's sort of wrecked. The body, by usual standards, is no longer a human body. Then at that point you may say, well, I'm still interested, there's still greater possibilities, but I can't cash in on them because my eyes don't work anymore. arms don't work anymore. So even though I'm interested in all these great possibilities, on the other hand is this big mess and probably it's really pointless. I think I'll split. The other one is death through natural

[58:34]

The natural fulfillment of the impulse upper, which happens later in life, even if you take good care of yourself, not eat too much, not take bad drugs, sleep every night, get a little exercise, all these nice things you do, take good care of it, still it comes to an end because you chose, you wanted that kind of life. You wanted to be a person. And the persons, they don't live forever. That's what you want it to be. So because you want it to be, that's what you get. So now it's coming to an end, okay? And it comes to an end, and there it is, and the heart stops. Nice healthy heart, but it stops. Nice healthy lungs, but they stop. Because they're going as long as they're supposed to. And there's a nice, good-looking corpse. It's not all polluted and stuff. But now that that stuff has started happening, once again you're in the same situation. Well, there's nothing to do. I can't play with this body anymore, so I might as well split. Death consciousness was not chosen yet.

[59:36]

So you can stay around, not in death consciousness, in regular, same kind of consciousness you were in before, but not choosing death consciousness yet. And you can do that as long as you want. Plus, after you choose death consciousness, you can still hang around the area So you can stay in normal state of consciousness in the area of the corpse, and you can also take death consciousness and go into the intermediate state and stay around the corpse. So in both cases, you have the consciousness that the person can be around the corpse after they choose death or before they choose death. They still can have a location, they still have five skandhas, but the organs are no longer like organs that come through a womb. They're organs that are flexible. Now they can go back into a womb or into an egg or whatever. And you can see, you can look back and see your funeral ceremony. That's why this stuff makes sense. According to Abhidharma Kosha, that's why doing these services and talking to these people makes sense. If you've been putting an interesting show on, they'll still be there watching.

[60:40]

The heart stops, the breathing stops, yes? Uh-huh. Well, there's a variety of possibilities there. One is that just the heart stopping, heart stop, here's the trajectory of the light, okay? Here's the direction. And here the heart stops. But you still have more life coming. Then the heart can start again. But the heart stopping does not mean that necessarily. But when the heart stops and the lungs stop at this point, then they don't start again. Okay? Okay. That's what I said. When the heart stops and the breathing stops, but the life trajectory is still going beyond that, it can start again.

[61:50]

That doesn't... I mean... Yogis can stop their breathing and heart. It does not mean death. But if they stop their heart... and they stop their breathing, at the end, at the ayus kshayat, whatever it is, at the cutting, at the end of their life, they stop it there, they can't start it again. However, even though they can't start it again, because of the inexorable quality of their choice of this body that ends right then, they can't start it again, but they're not necessarily choosing death consciousness. ... You're not. You're still in what we call, what do you call it, purvakala bhava. Bhava that follows after the, in other words, regular life. You're still there. And that's what these, I think that's what these people are who, they go up from their body, you know, they look down, and they're looking down.

[62:57]

There's just an ordinary state of consciousness. And then they come back into it again. That kind of experience. And they levitated out of their body, or they separated from their body prior to the end of the life. When the life ends, you can't do anything about it, according to this. When the life ends, that's it. But if you leave the body before the life ends, for example, what some people do, obviously, or not obviously, but possibly, is the life isn't over, but the heart stops. The heart's arrested, and the lungs are arrested for some reason, and they're very impetuous, so they split. But they don't choose death consciousness yet. They just start kind of splitting. And then the heart starts beating again, and they come back. Yes?

[63:57]

What about that? The fact that the people are massaging your heart is part of your karma. And if people keep massaging your heart and pushing on your lungs to make them work, if you just push on the lungs, you know, and then lift up on them, air will come in. It doesn't have to be your muscles that are pushing. If it isn't your diaphragm, somebody else can come in and work your diaphragm for you. And if they make your diaphragm go up and down or push on your lungs and press and massage your heart and push and put intravenous blood in you and keep you going, that's part of your karma. In other words, your life has not ended. Ayus is still functioning through other people.

[65:04]

When your mother puts her tit to your mouth and the milk comes into you, if she didn't do that, you'd die. But she does do it. And because she does it, you live. The fact that she puts her, if she doesn't put, if your economy is that your mother takes the nipple away, then you die. And that's part of the fact that you have a short trajectory life. You chose that woman to be your mother. You chose somebody who's going to take your milk away, and that was your choice. So you have a short life, because that's the person you chose to be. If you choose a mother that feeds you your whole life, gives you good food your whole life, then you live a long time. And if you choose doctors that massage your heart, and pressure in your lungs and give you intravenous feeding, you'll live beyond when your heart would have stopped and your lungs would have stopped and when you stopped eating. That's part of Ayus. Ayus includes the fact of others' participation in it, as we'll see. Want to see?

[66:06]

Here it is. There are four modes of existence. According to the sutra, there are four modes of existence that can be destroyed either by itself and not by another and so on. Okay? These are four possibilities. Now, these four possibilities correspond to the four ways of acquiring a personality. You can lose, you can die, you can be destroyed or die in the same way that you can acquire it. personality you can acquire personality by yourself through another by yourself and with another or neither you can destroy a personality all by yourself by others with others and neither

[67:16]

These are the possibilities. When you're clear and uncommitted in the intermediate realm, then you could see something about what it would be like in the various realms you could choose. But in those situations, people usually won't choose. Yes, you can see that. But if you're really excited and really distraught and aching to be born, you might overlook that. Or if she's really a nice, really good-looking mother or something, you might overlook the fact that she's really crazy. and it's going to abandon you. You could sense that if you wanted to, but you're too upset.

[68:25]

Now, there's also four cases here, too. Four is a very important number. There's four matrices. There's four methods for apprehending birth. There's four methods of apprehending death here. There's four cases of death we saw before. There's four modes of existence, and there's four classes of conception. One class of conception is that actually, although you choose birth, you don't get excited about it. You choose birth, and you know that you choose a human birth. bodhisattva so there's four cases start from the most elevated at the moment of conception you're clear or deliberate in the womb you're clear and deliberate and at birth you're clear and deliberate that's the first case that's a bodhisattva

[69:40]

Next case is, at birth, I mean, at conception, at choice of destiny, you're clear and deliberate. In the womb, you're clear and deliberate. But at birth, you conk out. And you forget what the program was. I believe that's a Pratryka Buddha. That's two. Third is, at conception, you're clear and deliberate. But in the womb, you conk out. And, of course, then you also will conk out at the birth process. That's a chakra vartan. A wheel-rolling king. In other words, a universal monarch. A powerful person, because they have that kind of clarity.

[70:46]

They chose the world they wanted and they know it. That's pretty good. But not as good as the others. And the other one is most people. When they choose their conception, they're also not clear and determinate. They got really upset in the intermediate realm. They couldn't cope with the simple, uncommitted situation. They started fooling around, and then they just grabbed what in their deluded state looked best. But because they're deluded, they maybe chose exactly what they don't want. And then they continued to not be aware. So those are the four cases. Well, because, for example, in the case of... Well, I guess you're right. They do choose exactly what they want. But they're surprised, you know, by what they get.

[71:49]

Because they thought they were going to get nice jewels, but actually they'd get red-hot irons around their neck. But that's what they wanted. Because what they like to do is be angry. So since they like to be angry, what they like to do is go to hell. So they did get what they want. You're right. Yes? What's the difference between grandchildren? What? The difference is a difference in level of conception, just a conceptual difference. But still, so there are worlds within worlds within worlds. So within life, which we usually demark by gravestones and hospital visits, there are many of these subsidiary transitions through realms intermediate realms realms intermediate conception what we call technically speaking what we call prasandhi citta birth consciousness purvakala bhava the bhava that follows the death the birth consciousness marana citta and then antara bhava and then

[73:09]

These things, many of these occur within one 70-year stint of a human being or one five-minute stint as a fruit fly or whatever. How long does fruit fly live? Ten minutes? Hour? Does anybody know? Huh? Couple weeks? Couple weeks of a fruit fly and so on. There's various lifespans but within each lifespan They're innumerable of these small transitions, okay? Like during a day, you can go, certainly in a day, it's pretty easy to go from heaven to hell to animal. You can certainly do all six in a day. It's very easy to do all six in a day. I mean, it's very painful, but it's very easy. To have a clear sense of doing all six would either be, I mean, you can do all six in a sense of that.

[74:15]

You'd only do all six. You'd sort of be in a sense of, in other words, you could do all six like this. This is the day, OK? And you're going to do these six during the day. So you're not going to experience any more than one. You can experience with no space all six And just each one once. So you can experience hell for a half an hour, human for five hours, animal for three hours, and so on. That would be a pretty rich day to do that. But you could also experience all six in a half an hour. It's also possible. Or all six in a few seconds. So if you experience all six, in big blocks during the day, within each of the all six, you experience all six.

[75:15]

And within each, once again, people within each one of those all six experience all six. Up to the limit of your imagination, which turns out has a limit. Yes? . Yes. That's where the ghost is. Everything burns out.

[76:16]

But unterabhava, unterabhava, you can't stay there for... It seems to be that has a time limit on it, but this space at the end doesn't. The space when the body dies, so they come in and they take your body away. So that's one of the reasons why I think you'll find that people, young people, two star-crossed lovers or something, you know, one of them dies, that's good ghost material. One dies, everyone commits suicide, can't stand anymore. There's still something very interesting. I could only have to have lots of more, you know. Someone's murdered, that's not a possibility. Murdered, especially when your life's sort of going along pretty well. they don't realize that they've channeled, they've programmed in death. See, they died because of not avoiding the causes of harm, but they still have a nice, you know, they haven't become weary of life yet.

[77:25]

They just not avoided the cause of harm. That's good ghost material, too. Antra Bhava could also be a ghost, but it's got a definite, usually Antra Bhava would be longer than the space between death of the body and and death of the person. Usually the space for most people looks like, at least, especially in America. In America, probably the space is the shortest of anywhere in history. Because we're programmed to think they're supposed to happen at the same time. So, when your head gets crushed, you think, that's it, I'm gone, let's go. But in other cultures, you say, well, so what? This is just another kind of special case. How do you think those samurais do their tricks? Anyway, in our culture, probably that space is the most paltry of any culture that I can think of anyway. Unless there was some that probably used to some place where they just told the people, as soon as your body goes, you're it.

[78:31]

So don't hang around for such and such a reason. You get in big trouble, you get attached to that space, and it's really dangerous or something. So split right away. So that may be a message in some cultures. But otherwise, I think our culture thinks it's supposed to happen at the same time. And so most people follow the rules. Because that's the way they've been thinking. So the fact that they're the same. So there's these four ways of... of dying here, one is through your own efforts. So, excesses, in other words, not avoiding the cause of harm, that's just your doing. And also, entering nirvana. You can add that, that they do it all by themselves.

[79:32]

And then being destroyed by others, being in the womb and eggs and so on. Another example of this would be like to slaughter a cow would be from others. I guess the chauvinism there is that cows don't have the kind of conscience that can imagine their own slaughter. So it's just from the outside. Or if you're in your mother's womb and she gets run over by a truck It's like you're not conceiving at that time and at a level, so it's done from the outside, maybe you could say. Or if you are conceiving at that level, then it wouldn't be in that case, even though your mother was run over by a truck. If you're participating at all in that, then it's not this case. Okay? So that particular example could be either way. It could be you and others, or just others, depending on your state of mind.

[80:48]

The other one is you and others participate in it. And the other is a rather complicated and esoteric one, which is neither, okay? So we have under here all these special cases. So most people in the Kamadatu, it says here, are of this third category. In general, one must accept hell, an intermediate state, etc. So most of us die through three categories. So in this sutra, it has four matrices, four classes of conception at birth, four methods of acquiring new personality. And here the four methods of acquiring new personality are in which our own volition works, but not another's, in which other's volition works and not ours, in which both our and another's work, in which volition of neither works.

[82:06]

That's to, that's to bring about personality, okay? Now here, uh, we can look at the exceptions, okay? What, did you ask a question, Richard? This is, um, I think this is a sitra that, the numbers, it's called the, um, uh, Sangiti Sitra, and what it does is it, it goes, teaches in these numbers, you know, it starts with, um, with the twos, threes, fours, fives, six, seven, eight, nine, tens, ten. It has all these teachings by numbers, you know. Four this, four that, five this, five that, six that. It's in a diganipaya. Okay, so in intermediate state, that means that in intermediate state, it doesn't come to an end by, it isn't destroyed by either of these classes.

[83:26]

All beings in the Rupadattu and our Rupadattu aren't destroyed by these classes. And beings in hell and Uttarakura are not destroyed by either one of these classes. And persons found in the path, and in the meditation and kindness, and in the absorption of non-consciousness. And also these special occasions of these raja rishis that are chakravatans who have left the worldly life, and various other kinds of cities which aren't mentioned here. Okay, so what does this mean? Easiest place to start is to catch on, and two places it's easy to catch on. One is in the absorption of non-consciousness, okay? So does it make sense to you that a person in that state doesn't bring it to an end by their own volition and others also don't bring it to an end? Does that make sense to you? If you die while you're in an invitation, that would be fine. Oh, no way. Either die while you're in it or end it early, but certainly die while you're in it.

[84:28]

You're not doing anything at that time. It's set. It's from one moment to seven days. And it's just set when you enter. Uttarakuru, the beings who exist in that realm always live a thousand years. It's set. As soon as you choose birth and human realm in that part of the universe, your lifespan's set. And that's another reason why beings in that area have trouble practicing. They're the example of the people who have trouble. They can't practice discipline. So they have a set lifespan, and they think they have a very rough life. So they're people who have to live a long, hard life. That's the kind of life they chose. It's very hard for them to imagine that they can practice. What? Utara Kuru, on the north side of Mount Sumeru.

[85:33]

That's in chapter 3. We're taking a field trip there next week. Now, if you choose birth in Jambudhipa, that of course varies. That's what we're reading about. This stuff is about Jambudhipa, namely India, namely this planet, as we usually think of it. That's variable. And also, now an interesting one is that the person on the path, okay? That's interesting, isn't it? Hell, you can't, when you're in hell, it's set. Good or bad, you can't die in hell. Neither way, it's set. You're stuck. You have to live it out. Who are all the beings in Rupadatta and Arubhidatta?

[86:35]

Are those the beings in heaven, should you mention? It obviously doesn't mean people who have gotten into Rupadatta trances. I think that's what it means. I think it means those gods. You see, those gods are the opposite. Those are the gods that they aren't doing what the gods of above did. The gods of the above were so indulgent and debauched that they somehow have managed to end their fixed day. They would have had a fixed day. And it would come to an end not by their effort or by another's. But they're so debauched that they cut it short. But when it comes to an end in the kamadhatu, it comes to an end as a cooperation between yourselves and others. Or as it comes to an end in these other states, it's set at the beginning.

[87:37]

Well, why would people who are on the path of insight into the truth all count? Yeah, I... What? They definitely are commentators. Well, no, they can be in all three. So in the path of insight, you can do meditations that take you to other realms, but you'd be going there just to test out your insight in that realm. But anyway, it says here that somehow they're free of karma. Now, I didn't have time to look up in Chapter 6, Karga 28, to see what was out of thought, but I can do that. They said path of insight and then I was sort of expecting them to say path of cultivation too or meditation. I don't know why they didn't say that one. Why does that... Oh yes, that makes sense.

[88:48]

That does it. One thing in Darshani Maga is fast. pretty fast, and Bhavana Maga is very long. All of whom the Buddha has prophesied that they could live at a certain time, here's an example, okay? The Bodhisattva in his last existence, the mother of a Bodhisattva, pregnant with a Bodhisattva, and the Chakravarti, the mother of a chakra vartan pregnant with a chakra vartan. So these people are somehow very special cases. The way the world works, it says, basically what this says, is that the way the world works is that it has special cases. It's fully authentic. It's fully authentic that it does, doesn't it?

[89:55]

Oh, yeah.

[89:56]

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