This is the next case, number 10. You got it last week, right? Got copies of this last week? Is that correct? So let's read the case. On the road to Taishan, there lived a certain woman. When the monk asked her which way he was going to go, the woman would say, right straight on. As soon as the monk would go, the woman would say, a fine priest, he goes that way too. The monk told Zhaozhou about this. Zhaozhou said, wait till I check out that woman for you. Zhaozhou also asked the woman the same question. The next day he went up to the hall and said, I have checked out the woman for you.

[01:01]

So I'm not going to tell you exactly what happened here or anything, but generally speaking, People say that there was this mountain in China, in northern China, called Wu Taishan, is the full name of the mountain. Wu means five, tai means terraces or plateau or peak, and shan, mountain. So it was a mountain. that had five terraces or five peaks. And the Bodhisattva Manjushri lived there. The Bodhisattva of perfect wisdom lived on this mountain.

[02:16]

And so it was a place that Buddhists from all over China went to. visit, and there were lots of temples up in the mountains and so on. There was one particular shop, the tea shop or place where this lady lived, and maybe there was a fork in the road or something by her tea shop. And monks would come by and they would ask her, which way? To... She would say, go straight ahead or go straight on. Okay? And then when they did, she would say this to them.

[03:17]

If they did that. which sometimes is translated as, you look like a fine priest and yet you go like this, or something like that. She wasn't really obnoxious about it, but there was some kind of problem in the way that they just went ahead without noticing what she was saying. So what she said is good advice to any Buddhist, namely, go straight ahead. And that's pretty much it. Want to know how to practice Buddhism? Go straight ahead.

[04:19]

What's the way? Go straight ahead. So she gave them all the instruction they needed, but they didn't seem to notice that they were still maybe going up to this mountain rather than, you know, in a way, they probably, you know, it might have been more appropriate if they said, which way to Mount Thai? And she said, go straight ahead. They just sort of had sat down and said, oh, thanks. What a relief. I came all this way. I don't need to go any further now. I can go straight ahead right here with you. Anyway, this particular monk, or maybe several monks, somehow couldn't capitalize on the opportunity of meeting this lady's good instructions, and one of them went back and told the old man, Jojo, and he said, you know, wait here, I'll go check her out, or I'll go see through her.

[06:04]

or I'll go and investigate or examine her. These are various translations of a certain Chinese expression. And he says, also he says, I will examine her or see through her or check her out for you. Of course, he could have said, what are you bothering me for? That lady told you what to do. Right? She told them what to do and they didn't utilize the opportunity very well. He could have just criticized them for missing the opportunity. Sometimes, you know, I remember when I was a kid, sometimes maybe some little brother or little friend

[07:09]

would come to visit me and say, you know, the day I was walking through such and such a neighborhood and some girl or some boy gave me a hard time. You know, they... They took my candy or they punched me in the nose or they wouldn't let me play baseball or they wouldn't let me come into the grocery store or they pushed my bicycle over. Something like that they would come and tell me. And so sometimes I might say, well, what are you telling me for? Why didn't you take care of it at the time? Well, what did you do when they said that? Even now here at Zen Center, sometimes people do that too. They come and they tell me, well, today I went to work and they told me that, you know, I wouldn't be able to get a vacation or that I'm getting my job changed.

[08:16]

And they did it rudely or they didn't do it kindly or something. And I say, well, what did you say? And they sometimes say, well, nothing. And sometimes I say, please go back there and tell them how you feel. So sometimes I would do that when I was a kid. I would send the kid back to talk to that person or something. But sometimes the big brother, sometimes the big sister, sometimes wants to go check it out for themselves. Not necessarily out of revenge, but just to see, well, they did that, huh? Hmm. I think I'll go and see what happens." Then you go there and maybe you bring your bicycle or your candy or your lollipop or whatever. You walk in there and they take your lollipop and you let them take it and you say, they did it to me too. Interesting. He decided to do it that way. Well, maybe he did say that to the monks, but anyway, does he say so?

[09:19]

Instead of saying, well, why didn't you say something or how come you didn't notice what she said? He went and apparently he asked the same question and she gave the same answer and he walked off the same way and she said the same thing. And he came back and said, he didn't say, this woman did that to me and so on and so forth, and I couldn't cope with her. He said, I'm going to go check her out. And he said, I did check her out. Well, the way it's written in English, it's like he's observing this happening to other monks. It seems like he's observing this happening to other monks, that this is not necessarily something that happened to him. And then he went back to Zhaozhou and told him about it and said this is... You mean the monks observing it happen to other monks? That's the way I'm reading it. He's observing it, it says...

[10:20]

you know, as soon as the monk would go, the woman would say, I find priest, he goes that way too. And it's like, then a monk told Zhaozhou about this, you see. Oh, I see. The next line is Zhaozhou. Yeah. Well, but you see, I think he's, I think the monk who's observing this happening to other monks is saying to Zhaozhou, there's this great teacher. who runs a tea shop down at the fork in the road. And this is how she's teaching these monks, right? And then over here in the commentary, it says, wait till I check it out for you. And the next sentence is, he slaughters everyone with doubt. In other words, the guy comes to him and says, there's a great teaching going on down at the fork in the road. And Xiaojia says, well, maybe not. Wait till I check it out for you. Why would you say he slaughtered everyone in doubt? Because the monk was... Maybe the monk came to Jojo and said, guess what I found out?

[11:25]

There's a great teacher down at the tea shop, this woman. And Jojo goes, well, I don't know. Maybe not. Well, who's the one who slaughters Jojo? Well, who has the doubt, according to your interpretation? He instills doubt in the monk who comes to him with the story of the great teacher... I thought it was the other way around, that people doubted this old lady. I don't know. That's your reading. Usually, the way it's stated, it sounds pretty clear that the monk who got caught came and told. He does admit this lady caught him, though. He does? You may not read this here, but the monk who goes back and tells Zhaozhou feels caught, feels embarrassed. I see. that she embarrasses monks quite frequently, and that one of them or several of them run home and tell Zhaozhou.

[12:32]

There could have been a series of monks that were embarrassed. Maybe his temple was not too far away. By not noticing the teaching, that's how they're embarrassed. They didn't notice the teaching, and also here's a lady who's kind of saying, you know, you guys look like fine monks, but you somehow don't notice what's happening. Right. You're clinging to this mountain. You're clinging to the mountain. You're clinging to every step you take. And apparently they thought, I guess, either they recognized that she had a point, or, again, sometimes I say to people, people get in situations like, I don't know what, like maybe they get taken off to jail or something. They're innocent, right? But they get taken off to jail. And I might say, well, yes, you may be innocent, but still you have to recognize that somehow you got taken out to jail. There's something in that. So even if they didn't agree with her, they must admit that for some reason their life has led them to be in a situation where an old lady is kind of teasing them about something.

[13:43]

So either way, either they recognize that she's not happy with them or they recognize that she caught them with the... awareness down, and they recognize she's a sharp cookie, and they go back and tell the boss, somewhat embarrassed. I think he catches them again, though. I think that what I'm saying is that he catches them again. The old fellow is aged and he doesn't rest his mind. What is he planning? He wants to determine the I of the source. I think he's catching them again. They felt caught by the old woman. And then they go tell him, well, we got caught, but we're uncaught. And then he catches them again. How so? Well, by saying, let me check them out for you. And instills doubt into them again. Well, maybe...

[14:44]

I don't think so. I think it's him telling the monks that you really better clearly observe what's going on here. And did you really clearly observe it? It's like a, you know... Did you understand that Zhaozhou got caught by the other women too? No. I think that Zhaozhou also represents the sweating horses, the teachers of the past. And it's almost an act of compassion. You meet an old, venerable guy, and these young monks go to him and say, you know, I've got to check this out with you. And he almost seals it for them. And he represents the teaching. He seals what for them? Well, apparently the priests felt a little embarrassed, the monks felt a little embarrassed that this woman teased them and they got caught. Yeah. But they weren't sure, so they asked this old teacher, this rebel teacher, you know, is our perception right? Could you check it out for us?

[15:47]

And he does, and he comes back as a kind of act of compassion and says, yeah. Yeah, what? You were caught, yeah. No, you were caught. You don't have to any doubt anymore about whether you were caught or not, you were caught. And in doing that, you can't reveal the wisdom. It seems to me like the woman has picked up my jewellery and dragged. Yes. It's a Southern Mass on the poem that he once gave us in class. This is the one, the same line. Gap and some cosmic vector are inseparable. Take one, knot one, knot two, go straight ahead. Is that related to this?

[16:49]

Yeah, it has been. Pretty much the same instruction to Lady Gap. And there's, again, there's many little twists and innuendos in here that I think it's fine to try him on, like the one you just did is fine. And your thing about that he helps the monks by verifying that they were caught, that's... But in another part of it is that they could have had, you know, they could have had the mind that goes to check out things. that goes to check out being caught, that walks into situations where other people have been caught, that walks into situations like that willingly and gets caught. There's a, you know, this Zhaozhou, he's the one who the monks asked him, does a dog have Buddha nature?

[17:59]

And he said, in Chinese, Wu, in Japanese, Mu. And mu is, you know, that basic colon. So in the, in the, in the, this, this story is the 31st case in the Mumon Khan. The first case in the Mumon Khan is Zhao Zhou's dog, or Zhao Zhou's puppy. where the monk says to Zhaozhou, Does the dog have Buddha nature? And Zhaozhou says, Mu. And that's the first barrier of that book called The Gateless Barrier. And another time a monk asked Zhaozhou, Does the dog have Buddha nature? And he said, Mu. He said, yo, in Chinese. In Japanese, you, or Haru.

[19:06]

Yes, dog does have Buddha nature. Mumi doesn't have any or isn't. So the first time he was asked, does the dog have Buddha nature? He said, no, it doesn't have any. Second time he was asked, he said, another time he was asked, he said, yes, it does have Buddha nature. And on that occasion, the monk said to him, well, if the dog has Buddha nature, why does the dog, if it possesses Buddha nature, why does it come into this stinking skin bag Why does Buddha nature come into a skin bag like a dog? And Jiaojiao said, because it knowingly and willingly transgresses. So, in a sense, you could say Jiaojiao, well, another slant on this is that Jiaojiao knowingly and willingly transgresses. He goes right into the situation, asks the woman a stupid question,

[20:15]

gets an answer and walks off making the same mistake and maybe even feels embarrassed when she says that to him. Again, imagine, you know, perhaps not now, but in your teenage years, if you were in a situation where... Like again, I could say, you know, maybe some friends of mine come and tell me that they went into a certain neighborhood and the people in that neighborhood teased them and made a fool of them, you know. This happens to both boys and girls. Do you know what I mean? Have you ever had that happen to you? Like go to a new school and then the kids tease you or make fun of you or maybe throw a tomato at you or something. And again, if you're an older kid, somebody might come back and tell you about that and want you to go in there and protect them in that neighborhood or something.

[21:21]

So you might go in there by yourself and walk in that neighborhood and they might throw the tomato at you too and splat around you too. And part of you would say, well, you know, they throw a tomato at me, but I just came in here sort of out of... knowingly and willingly I came in here, so it doesn't really, it's not really the same for me, you know. But it does feel a lot like that, though. And I actually think of tomato on my clothes, and I... But, you know, it's kind of like... Do you know what I mean? Actually, one time I remember when I was a kid... We're talking about, we're about 13, we're talking about homosexuals, and I played this, and I said something like, he was the fruitiest fruit I ever fruited.

[22:26]

And then one of the guys said, see there, Joe, you're homosexual. But you said you're fruited. But see, I set it up that way. But still, I was caught. Even though I was totally, you know, setting up the thing, still I got caught. Even though I knew I set it up that way, somehow I still got caught. So Jojo, in some sense, maybe he got caught too. Even though he set it up that way and walked right into it and did it for them. He, in a sense, maybe he got caught too. Just like he said I... What? He said he lost his life. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to give you my first reading of this was that the monk asked the woman which way is the road. She tells him the way is straight on. And he starts to walk away. And she gives him further instruction. That is, this is how... fine priest also goes right straight on.

[23:33]

Sort of like your first comment about this was good instruction. And she's saying to him, this is what a fine priest does too, goes right straight on. And she is criticizing him. She's criticizing him? Well, in the other version of it, the language is clear that she is criticizing him. She says, you look like a fine priest. It's pretty clear that she's teasing him or criticizing him. But I would say all the more that a good priest would go the wrong way. But even if she was being ironic about it, still, it's true that a good priest would go the way that was actually wrong or stupid. Yeah, what does he care? Huh? What does he care? Yeah. Yeah. Puerto Rico's police, right? Right. However, he probably, you know, but anyway, I think, again, part of the story is the feeling is when he goes back to Jojo, he's kind of

[24:41]

got his tail between his legs, and he's a little bit embarrassed. But, again, as Bill said, it could be that this woman caught him and he's going back to say, hey, teacher, I got a good one for you. This is a great lady. It's another interpretation. And I'm really proud that I was caught by her, that I provided her an opportunity to frown me. Isn't the point at which they get caught the point at which they ask the question? It strikes me, when I read it the first time, I was like, well, why are they asking what was possible? In the first place. Yeah, that's... And that's the whole point, is that she's pointing out that if they were, you know, like, aware of what they did on the path, they didn't ask the question. Yeah, right. So that's another point, is that they already were in trouble when they arrived, that they didn't know where they were. And, okay, so we can go on like this, okay, and I think, okay, this level of discussion, but, oh, and there's one other thing I wanted to say, and that is somebody said that some popular interpreter said that these, that Zhaozhou and this old lady were kind of peers,

[26:13]

they were equally matched, and the interchange came up as a draw. This is a modern interpreter. Something like that. But one of the Zen teachers who cited that modern interpretation said that this person does not understand what a koan is. So I willingly, I knowingly and willingly transgressed to discuss this koan on the level we just discussed it. And I don't criticize myself or you or any of us for participating in this discussion. But it seems like the way the koan is used and why this koan is actually considered to be a difficult koan is not because of the discussion we just had, which is not that much more difficult than other koans we had. But the place of emphasis in this koan, the place of pressure is, how did Zhaozhou see through this woman?

[27:15]

There's other parts of the story we have information about, and we have some basis for making interpretation and feeling how the story went and learning quite a bit from it. We could go on and learn more too. It's a good story in that way too, the way we've been discussing it. But it seems like the point of the story, penetrating the eye of the story, just like he went to see the eye of the source. And he went to see the eye of the source, and he saw through the woman. How do you read that? Where do you see that he saw through her? Because he makes no comment at all, except to say, I did go check her out. Check out his saw through. It's another way to translate. If you look in other translations... So you're saying when he says, I have checked out the woman, you're saying, in this case, you're saying, he's saying, I saw it through. Yes. He says, I will go see through the woman for you. I will go investigate the woman for you.

[28:22]

I will go check out the woman for you. That's different translations of the same character. Sure, but if he says, when he first hears the story, I'll go check her out, it sounds like maybe he'll be able to see through her, maybe he won't. Can he see through everyone? Check out is kind of, I think, kind of cool, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, check out, but who is this guy checking it out? This is Jojo, man, you know? So can he see through everyone without... This guy is Jojo, okay? This is the guy that's got seven stories. He has seven stories in the Mumonkan. He has 12 stories in the Hekoyanroku. He has eight stories in here. This is Jaojo. When he talked, a spark came off of his lips. This is the guy who's going to go check her out. For this guy to say check out is pretty much the same as I'll see through her. Or I'll obliterate her. Or, you know, there won't be nothing left of her after I check her out. But check out is kind of nice.

[29:24]

It's kind of light and friendly. But other translations say, I will see through and through. I will investigate her. I will check her out. All those different translations of the same thing, depending on how penetrating you want to make your language. Check out, I think, is kind of the softest possible word. But when he checks her out, he just says, I checked her out. He doesn't say, I saw through this woman and she was good, bad, or indifferent. And how did he check her out? He doesn't tell you how he checked her out. As a matter of fact, he checked her out by acting exactly the same as these monks who, again, you can interpret that they were sharp monks, stupid monks, whatever. But anyway, he didn't do anything better than them. But he came back and said, I checked her out for you. And I'm just saying that from what I can tell, the way this thing is used as a koan is for each of us to think about what does it mean that he checked her out?

[30:31]

What does it mean that he saw through and through? What happened? What is that? How does that... And... One thing it seems to mean is that when you go to check something out in this world, you don't have to do anything better than this stupid monk. You don't have to sort of like go in there and kind of like turn sideways when she's talking behind your back and sort of catch her over your shoulder. You don't have to sort of... You can do just like everybody else. You don't have to sort of like have some special routine that you do in order to see through the situation. Maybe he did, though. Maybe he had this little deal in his back pocket that protected him from procurement. So when she said that to him, it bounced off this metal plate he had in the back of his robe. We don't know. I'm just saying that that's exactly the point, is that we have no information about how he checked her out. But we do know, they did tell us, that he did the same thing as the other people did, and she said the same thing.

[31:38]

And also that that was her standard routine, that she did that regularly with people. So he went the ordinary way, and yet he says, I checked her out. And he doesn't say anything more than that. And so we're left with, what does it mean that he checked her out? And so it's... Anyway, that's my understanding of the way that this is used as a koan, as a manifestation of reality over and above or in conjunction with the story value, which is also very interesting. I think the story value perhaps could be used to make even more clear that you don't have anything to get a hold of except... How did he see through her? It seemed to me what distinguished his action was that he knowingly and willingly entered fully into her situation.

[32:53]

And the expression for you there reminds me of a verse from the Kegitan Roku. How many times have I gone down into the dragon cave for you? And this is like going into the dragon cave for you. And going willingly means going for you. Yeah. This is a bodhisattva vow, to knowingly and willingly enter into the world for the sake of all beings. Yes? Is he going to experience, is it an act of compassion that he goes to experience her so he can understand... He's not satisfied just knowing, hearing the stories and making assumptions, but he goes to experience.

[34:05]

Yeah, basically that's it. Did you ever see that movie, that German movie that was out a year or so ago called The Wings of Desire? Did you see that movie? What was about, I don't know exactly, but it was about an angel. It was about a couple of angels. One angel was this guy, what's his name? What's that guy's name? Richard Falk? Peter Falk? Peter Falk. He was an angel that lived in the world. And then there was other angels who lived in heaven. And he couldn't see them but they could see him. And one time, one of them came down to kind of like a little coffee, one of these coffee shops, actually. He was at a coffee shop. He was drinking coffee, and this one angel came down right next to him, and he said, I can't see you, but I know you're here, and I'd like to meet you. Anyway, finally this angel came down in the world, right? this other one that was sort of always out there. So part of the story, part of the background, not to this story so much, but of all Buddhism, is that Buddha nature comes down into the world.

[35:20]

It does want to know, kind of in a sense, what it would be like to be a sentient being. Which is something like Jesus too, right? God wanted to know, what would it be like to be a Jew? I mean, like to be a regular Jew. I got all these people down here, but what would it be like to be just like one of them and sort of like have passion and, you know, have all the regular equipment and stuff? And what would it be like? And feel pain and pleasure and have people admire you and spit at you and what would that be like? So then you have this thing happening. So Jaojo is... example of one of these manifestations of bodhisattva in this world. And they really do want to check out scenes. They want to see, what does coffee actually taste like? And what is it like to actually meet this lady and have her say this stuff to you?

[36:21]

What would that be like? I'm going to go check it out for you. You know, when I read this the first time, I just thought that Jojo asked the same question that the other people asked. But then I realized that first the monks that asked the question originally were actually lost, and they were wondering, you know, how do I go there? And he wasn't lost. He knew where he was. He knew the way to the, you know, to Taishan. But he asked the same question. Well, I mean, yes and no. I mean, but when you ask the question, if you really ask the question, it's the same. It's kind of like, again, I don't know if you got my example before, but it's like, let's say I really do know what time dinner's gonna be. I really do know, but I'm gonna go in the kitchen and I'm gonna say to the kitchen people, what time is dinner?

[37:26]

And then they say to me, you don't know what time dinner is, you moron? Get out of here. fruit. Get out of here. And besides that, even if you didn't know it down there, or even if you did know it down there, you shouldn't even bother. Now get out of here. And I think, I came in just to sort of ask them this question out of the spirit of Dharma, even though I knew the answer. And they're treating me like shit. So, you know, I did know the answer, and I just went in to sort of do a little Dharma thing with the kitchen people, right? To bestow my kindness and give them a chance to interact with me. But they actually treated me just like I was somebody who didn't know what time dinner was, and they removed me. They cut the cat. Yeah. So, you know, in a way, I did know what time dinner was, but the fact that I put myself right in a situation where you could treat me like a moron, somehow I expected you to know that even though I asked you what time dinner was, of course I knew And I did know. But you treated me like I didn't, and actually, somehow I got insulted anyway, even though I did know.

[38:29]

Well, it's strange, you know? But that's, I think he did that. That he did know, or even if he didn't know, he didn't need to know, right? Zhaozhou doesn't need to know where Taishan is. He is Taishan. All the people, they go to Taishan, and then after they go to Taishan, they go see him. So he's Zhaozhou. He's the whole state that Kaishan's in. That's what his name reads, by the way. His name is the name of the state that the whole mountain's in. So, but still, I think when he went there, I don't think he had any advantage on... I don't think the Bodhisattva has any advantage. I think they go right down in the situation. And yet, without an advantage, still the point, the reason why they're there is... because they got there by this vow. And actually, so did everybody else. So did the other people who didn't go there as a teacher.

[39:34]

They also got there by the same vow. She was blind. That's the interpretation that they were born with. Right. I think I agree with Fu that a real teacher would have seen what Jordan was alluding to, that he was asking the question where it was coming from another place. And the fact that she knew that, she saw that, but she went along with the little Mondo, little Dharma dialogue. He asked the question just like the monks did. She saw where it was coming from, but she gave the same response. Yeah, right. So they were having quite a little Dharma getting there. Right. So Jiaojiao saw through her and she saw through Jiaojiao. That's part of what it says here. How did she see through Jiaojiao?

[40:34]

Some people say she solved your child's job too. But the fact that the mind that went there and thought, oh, this woman's pretty sharp, I'm going to check her out, and then looked, maybe a mind also looked at her and said, hmm, hmm, hmm. That kind of seeing through, okay? And then the kind of seeing through she could do of saying, hey, this guy's being sent here by those other monks. This is their teacher. Okay, that kind of seeing through. But there's another kind of seeing through. that you don't have even this information about. And that's the kind of seeing through that I think is what's difficult and what the point is, the point of this koan. And when you see, and also when you see that, when you see how Zhaozhou saw her, you also see how she saw him. It's exactly the same. It's not that he saw a woman and she saw a man. Even though they did see a man saw a woman and a woman saw a man.

[41:38]

Well even though she wanted to be seen, or she didn't mind being seen through, or she was just doing what she was doing. And Jaojo was just doing what he was doing. And they were, I don't think they were judging the situation necessarily, I think they were just experiencing the situation. This is how he saw through her, just by being in the situation with her, and she saw through him by just being in the situation with him. And what do you say, no outflows. I mean, he didn't explain to the monks anything. He just said, well, checked her out. That's all through her. Yeah. To me, that's no judgment, no outflows. Did you want to say something, Jim? No, go ahead if you want to answer. Okay. To say that there was no judgment is a kind of outflow.

[42:52]

Yes, I understand. So, you can say that they had no judgment, but if that's the case, then that was another pit that they fell into, avoiding that, okay? Maybe they did, but that's not the seeing through. And if they did or did not judge, that's not the point, because I think that both the woman and the man, all the people willing to enter into the world, well, people do make judgments. I think that lady might have said, hey, this is, I know who this is, this is Zhao Zhou. I saw his picture in the Diamond newspaper the other day. God, Zhao Zhou's coming to visit me, oh, isn't he great? Or she might have said, I don't know who this guy is, but he's really cute. And he might have thought something about her too. I don't know. All that could have happened or not happened. He doesn't tell us, right? And she doesn't tell us either. Maybe there's a bunch of stories about her of another lineage where she's telling a bunch of guys coming in and she said, now another one's going to come back and talk to me and I'm going to check him out and all that.

[43:56]

So basically what I'm suggesting to you is that the koan, the way this is worked on as a koan, which is very difficult, is almost that all the content of this story is simply to, in a sense, to reinforce or make clear to us that really all we're being asked to do, that almost the entire, this is a process question, And there's absolutely no content for us to work with here, except content which tells us that we have no content to work with. And content like, you know, that Jojo did feel a certain way, or she felt a certain way, and that there was some problem that they had to work on. You don't know what Zhaozhou was feeling. You don't know if he liked the woman. You don't know if he thought she was great. You don't know if he thought she was stupid. You don't know if she thought of him. Nobody knows anything about what happened, except the thing we know is that since it was the same in the two cases, that for me underlines the fact that the quality of the interaction is not the point, that he did better than the monks

[45:15]

We don't have that. That he did worse than the monks, we don't have that. You can say he did or didn't. You can say he didn't fall into it, or you can say he did, but there's no indication, except for our discussions, of himself, too. Although he doesn't quite say that. I don't even have to say that, because I think if you see through, if you understand how he saw through her, other people will see through you. Do you want to say something? Yeah, in fact, what I want to say is sort of what sounds like what you just said to me, which is all along this has had a feeling, especially because we don't know what happened. You know, you're sort of at the end, you want to go, okay, so what did he find out? You know, we need another couple lines in the story. Yeah. It's sort of like the physical questions that you can't wrap your teeth around, you know. Sort of like that. There's no last comment of how... It has a feeling, you know, just... Language sort of leads you to a place where you just can't quite get satisfied.

[46:23]

Yeah, this is... So I think that's... The way it's a koan is that you're not satisfied. No. It's encouraging. It's encouraging. I hope it's encouraging, yeah. I hope it's encouraging. It doesn't seem to me, when I read it, And we read it, it seems kind of inconsequential. Yeah. You know, I wasn't, you know, like the case before seemed kind of consequential. Yeah. But at this point, I wasn't, I sort of was looking forward to number 11 in the next case. Yeah. Well, that wasn't good. And I kind of feel like that the placement of 9 before this one is good because that one had, the 9 has consequences. Yeah. Okay, this one, you do not see the consequences, but the fact that nine just came there before maybe would help us understand that although there's no consequences being demonstrated here, there is consequences, serious consequences in this business, and yet now you understand there's consequences, okay, now we're being guided into, in some sense, into, in a way, into the more brilliant center of case number nine.

[47:37]

were being guided into the non-judgmental core of case number nine by this story. But somehow it was difficult to have a story which shows the consequences and shows how serious it is, and then at the same time lets you confront the mystery of the situation, which is even where there's not even any consequences there. So I like the two right next to each other there. The number nine is really still hanging in the balance over our head. Now number 10 takes us another step into the ineffable, nonjudgmental, ungraspable, and yet a very important reality of checking it out, of seeing through a relationship. And when there's no judgment or no right or wrong or no winner or loser, which is discussed too. No winner or loser. No gain, no loss. No victory, no defeat here. No advantage over any other stupid person. No disadvantage over even a great bodhisattva.

[48:42]

Just what does it mean? How did he see through her and how did she see through him? And there are consequences looming one case before which apply here too. But they don't mention it in this case. Except they say he lost his life. You Utah Phillips is a folk singer and raconteur and travels around a lot. And apparently when he travels... Utah? You Utah Phillips. You Utah? You Utah Phillips. And apparently when he travels... Travels like the state? As in Utah. Utah as in... And when he travels to a new place, he asks everybody, what is it in this town? What is it that you have here that you have to see? What is it that you see here that's the essential nature of this town?

[49:44]

For example, in Sacramento, for example, there might be somebody who's been picketing outside of the state capitol. for 30 years. And as a matter of fact, I think there is. And he very often marches into somebody's office and sits down, has a sit-down strike and gets arrested and carried off. And he's always passionately engaged in some cause or another or the same cause repeatedly. And in some sense, for someone that's the center of Sacramento. So when he has an opportunity, Utah Phillips will go and see him. Inconsequential.

[50:45]

It's good. Your words help us perhaps be inevitable. Well, what do you think it would be like? You know, it seems like both of these are both about interaction. About interaction? Yeah, about relating. And in the case 9, there's all this stuff around pressure, sense around interaction, In fact, there isn't one. Even monks freeze. And here, Jajo is showing some courage in being willing to just go right in and have an interaction which is very mundane, very inconsequential, and yet absolutely important. Yeah. It's mundane, it's inconsequential, There's nothing more important than it, and we don't know anything about it.

[51:48]

And yet, as Zen students, we are asked, how did he see through her? We are asked that question, and that is the point of this story, and it is considered to be a very difficult story, this one. Not to say the one before wasn't difficult, but I kind of feel like that one's more like one that I feel like I want you to take it to get yourself into worldly conflict. It's more like, that one's more like the invitation into the problems of the world. I'm asking you to transgress into ordinary difficulty. Do you think the koan is really asking, you know, how did he see through, or was seen through by, or is it asking us? You know, how do you see through, or how are you seeing through? Oh, yes, of course. Of course it's asking you.

[52:53]

So we're not really so interested in what jiaojiao is, so much as we are, as it informs our own process. Yes, yes. In other words, you're not so interested in what he did except that what he did is exactly the same process that we should enter into. So we are interested in what he did, but it's not a different process from a process that is available to us. So it's good then that I don't tell us exactly what he did because I don't want to copy it. You tell us the process, but I don't want to copy it. I don't tell you the process. Well, just the name. They tell you that there is a process, and they ask you, what process is that? And it would be the same process now as it was in the Tang Dynasty. And that's for you to see how you would feel. I now feel that I am now, that this is the process that Zhaozhou was involved in at that time with that lady.

[53:57]

This is it. That would be what you feel was your finishing this koan. And I'll tell you right now, the next koan is Zen sickness. which is what happens to people after they solve a koan. After they solve? Yeah, after you have some realization. Like, for example, after you understand this koan, if you did, which, you know, it's fairly unlikely that anybody will by next week, but if you should happen to by next week or next month or next year, the next koan, the next story is to tell you about what happens when you think you understand it. It's a sickness to think that you would understand this. So that's another hint, that understanding this koan will not be something that you will accomplish. So if you understand this koan, right away you know you're in trouble.

[55:02]

But anyway, we'll read the next koan pretty soon. Yes? It seems to me that I keep waiting for you to say that this is about ordinary mind. You're talking about the light and the brilliance that's so attractive in case number nine. That's really, you've got to pay attention to it. It seems like a pretty dreary case if you don't pay attention to that. And that brilliance is this sort of mirroring mind. Every moment, you've got to be there to react. And in this case, it really seems to me that he's going to do it just because he's got questions. It's just interesting. It's a quest for... this ordinary mind. What is she going to say? Is this person going to take my lollipop?

[56:03]

And how come Bill's sitting like that? It's questions. Yeah, it's ordinary. It's fairly ordinary for a human mind to, when they hear a story like this, to go see the lady. Or to say to the person, why didn't you ask her, you know, such and such. It's ordinary mind to do that, to go see the guy. But most people don't trust their ordinary minds, so they can't move. They think their ordinary mind is not good enough. Excuse me, yes? I have an event when we talk. So when you say a koan, I mean, is that what the homework is? When people did homework? The homework was from the last class. Did you know the story about the cat? Yeah, I heard you talk about it. So I asked people last week, were you here last week? No, but you talked about it once. Yeah, I asked people last week, to try to bring the koan, to describe how they would bring the koan into their life, or how they would conduct their meditation throughout the week to make that koan alive in their life.

[57:18]

I thought it was a homework assignment or something like that. I mean, when you say why, or no, how he saw through her, Can we just go on? I mean, are we supposed to practice? Yeah. I'd like, I'd be happy, I'd be very happy. It would be one of the things that would make me happy. If you and other people would spend your time and energy thinking about how did Zhezhe see through this woman? The thing that comes to my mind is just from a chant in Zendo, emptiness has no form. When I think of why. Emptiness has no form? You didn't hear the chant quite right. Emptiness does have form. Emptiness has form. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, emptiness does have form.

[58:19]

You want to hear the form of emptiness? Mm-hmm. Yeah. How did Zhaozhou see through the woman? That's the form of emptiness. That's one of the forms emptiness comes in. That's the emptiness package. How did Zhaozhou see through the woman? Which is the same as how did the woman see through Zhaozhou? That's the form of emptiness. That's the sound of emptiness. That's the color of emptiness. That's the smell of emptiness. That's the taste of emptiness. That's the touch of emptiness. Want to touch emptiness? Want to feel a touch of emptiness? How did he see through her? I feel emptiness. Yeah, you feel emptiness. I don't know. Yeah, I know you don't. But anyway, this is what I would like is if you would do that, if you would carry that question with you as you walk around here with a calm body and mind. peacefully, quietly, wonder.

[59:28]

How did he see through it? This should make you warm, this question, nice and warm. It should make you feel close to people and tolerant. And raise your hand with your finger pointing to the ceiling, yes? One thing it brings to mind for me is two cases ago about falling into cause and effect. And that maybe Jiazhu just, that the monk was getting caught. He couldn't quite fall into cause and effect. He was obscuring it. And Jiazhu just wanted to demonstrate just falling into cause and effect. He did a deep dive and caused an effect. Deep swan dive. But, one of the commentators in the, what do you call it, in the the Munmong Khan, it says, the lady, she was able to

[60:46]

manage or conduct the campaign, you know, all the strategies of her campaign while sitting in her tent. You know, like a great general, they can just sit in their tent and manage this great campaign. She was able to do that, but she didn't notice this famous, this notorious thief coming in, bandit coming into her house. And he... He was able to sneak into the camp of the enemy and sort of harass the whole fortress without even being detected. But he didn't have the air of a great person. So although he did this great dive into cause and effect, he didn't get a 10. He got, I don't know what, 8.2 or something. Do you know what I mean? 10, like in gymnastics. He didn't get a high score. How could he have gotten a better score? Well, in a way, Zhao Zhou, you know, let's say Zhao Zhou is a really super great Zen master, because that's what they say he was.

[61:58]

If he'd gotten too good a score, he probably wouldn't have been such a great Zen master. It's probably good that he didn't do so well. So he really did get a 10. And so did she. And so did you. Or a zero. Or a zero? Yeah. That would be something. Has anybody ever gotten a zero? If you don't show up. No, in the verse it says, having checked out the woman, he told people it isn't worth the cent. Well, is that what he says, sir? No, it doesn't say that. In the verse, yeah. No, it doesn't say that. It doesn't mean to say he told, but he didn't tell. Having checked out the woman's chan, or having seen through and through Grandma Zen. That's another translation. Having seen through and through Grandma Zen. told to other people, it isn't worth a cent.

[63:09]

So, I kind of, I believe, you know, I choose to believe that Jojo did see through and through. But if he tells us, it wouldn't be worth anything to us. So he doesn't tell us. He just said, I did. So it's still gold. So it's still gold to us. Real gold. If he told us, it wouldn't be worth anything to us. We just think, God, Jojo. You're fantastic. Jojo could be impressive if he wanted to be, but he didn't choose to be impressive. He chose not to tell us what it was like to do what he did. He didn't point at it. He went there, but he didn't point at it. And he went there just like us, with no advantage. He entered into his life just like we do, He didn't do it with any advantage over us. He did it. And yet, he said, and he said, and when Jaojo said, I saw through her, we generally speaking, we accept Jaojo saw through her.

[64:20]

Like Shakyamuni Buddha, when he was enlightened, after he was enlightened, he met some of his friends, and he said, well, they said, you know, hi, you know, Gautama. And he said, hi, Gautama. And they said, what's new? And he said, I realized the way. And they said, oh, really? He said, did you hear that? He realized the way. And they didn't look at him and say, what happened to you? Where did that thing come from around your head? How come you're not on the ground anymore, Gautama? He looked like pretty much the same person he used to look like. He had to tell them that he realized the way. But I like what they say, is that he was always an honest guy, you know. He never lied to them before. He was a reliable, sincere practitioner of yoga.

[65:23]

So when he told them that he had attained the way, they pretty much said, well, they didn't believe it exactly, but they thought, well, let's hear about it. Let's, you know, tell us what's happening. So then he told them and they said, wow, that isn't really neat. Tell me more. You know, and then he taught them and taught them and taught them and then they understood the way and they became, they also achieved the way through his instruction. So when Zhaozhou says, I saw, I checked her out for you, the monks probably said, okay, he probably did. Just like that's how I feel about Zhaozhou. If he says he checked her out, you know, based on everything else he's ever done, from what I've heard about him, I think he checked her out. But he didn't tell me about it. Therefore, it's worth something to me. As a matter of fact, it's worth something to all of us. And the question is now whether we have the energy and trust of Zhaozhou to try to understand how he saw through her, and that we can do that, and that it would be hard to do it.

[66:25]

Well, it allows us to see through her. It allows us to see through her. If he saw through her and told us about it, then we couldn't see through her. He would take life away. Yeah, and it allows us to be pals with Jojo. Yes. Can I just direct something a little naturally and ask Hannah what she's been going to say quite a long time after becoming a curator? I've been thinking that this cause about doubt. Pardon? I get left with the marks on their doubts, and the fact that they go into doubt to begin with, to ask the first question, and then they continue in doubt as to their way in order to ask the teacher about it. And then the teacher comes back and doesn't give them an answer. So what they're left with is dealing with their own doubts, which you can only deal with by yourself. Because if he was to dispel or adapt for it, then it wouldn't be the same with the Buddha.

[67:32]

And also it says there, doesn't it, that it says, does it say here in the other thing, it says that the monks, when the old lady said, go straight ahead, they did not make an obstacle out of their doubt. Did you hear that expression? Did you hear that before? Is that not in here? Yeah. They did not make an obstacle out of their doubt. Yeah, but they didn't make an obstacle out of their doubt. When you make an obstacle out of your doubt, you take your doubt and you eat it. You say, this is... Making an obstacle out of your doubt is like this story, okay? How did Zhao Zhou... see through her. To take that up is to make an obstacle out of that question. When she said, go straight ahead, they didn't make an obstacle out of their doubt. So they just walked ahead.

[68:32]

In other words, instead of stopping right there, when she said, go straight ahead, in dealing with that, they walked ahead. If they had dealt with it, they would have made an obstacle out of their doubt. Does that make sense? They would have converted what she said into an obstacle, into a barrier. They wouldn't have been able to move if they'd converted her instruction into a wall. So why did they have to ask the teacher that? Because they didn't make what she said into an obstacle. Therefore, they went ahead. This is maybe too easy for you to catch. But didn't they get caught? They're getting caught. Well, they got caught. But if you make your being caught into an obstacle, then you're not caught anymore. Then you use the being caught. Everything that happens to you all day long. Like Zhaozhou also said, a monk said to him one time, he said, am I the same as you?

[69:33]

Somebody said to Zhaozhou, and he said, no. What's the difference? The monk said. He said, you get used by the 24 hours, I use the 24 hours. Using the 24 hours means every minute of the day is an obstacle for you. You make it into an obstacle. You use everything that happens to you. This question is a way to make everything that happens to you an obstacle. Everything that happens to you is, how did he see through the old woman? So it says in here, these monks didn't make her statement into an obstacle. They didn't make their doubt about what she said. When she said that to them, they didn't understand what she meant. They had some doubt. They didn't realize the way on what she said. So they kept walking ahead. They had an agenda. Yeah, they had an agenda. They were busy. They didn't have time to get realized what the Dharma right now. They had to go someplace else. So they didn't make what she said, which they didn't understand, into... If they had understood it, they wouldn't have moved.

[70:41]

They would have realized the way right then. If they didn't understand it, they should have used it. but they didn't. So they kept walking and then she said, I just told you what to do and you didn't listen to me. You didn't make what I said, which you didn't understand, into an obstacle. So then they were really in trouble, so then they went and told the boss. And he also did not make what she said into an obstacle. She did the same thing. Because if he would make it into an obstacle, then he couldn't have gone on and had her say that to him. So he did the same thing. He failed also, but his agenda was to check it out. So it's okay. Because he willingly entered into that kinky little twisty situation that they went through, and he went right through it, step by step, all the way to the end, and got caught just as bad as they did for their sake. So he could understand in detail how their mind works, how her mind works, and so he could certainly see through the human situation.

[71:42]

Okay? No? I'm still not quite sure how you would mean this, making doubt into an obstacle that stops you, and why it's not possible to continue on your way with doubt. The way is when you make doubt into an obstacle. That's the way. That's what the way is. The way is the way, is the way does not have doubt. The way has no doubt. Okay, that's what... Jiao Jiao asked Nanchuan, right? That's the story. Jiao Jiao says to Nanchuan, what's the way? Nanchuan says, everyday mind is the way. Jiao Jiao says, should we aim at it? Nanchuan says, if you aim at it, you go away from it. Jiao Jiao says, well, how do we know if we're doing it or not? Nanchuan says, knowing it or not knowing it is not the point.

[72:47]

Knowing it is just delusion, not knowing it is some kind of special blanking in your consciousness. When you achieve the way of no doubt, it's as vast and wide and boundless as the universe. Isn't that the difference here between what Marx did and what Shantri did? Is what the difference? The fact that he had no doubt, maybe. Having no doubt is not the way. The way has no doubt. People can have doubt. Zhaozhou has doubt, but he uses doubt. Zhaozhou is a neurotic. You want him not to be a neurotic? What's going to happen to you? Well, I'm already at this point quite neurotic. Yeah, so don't you want Daudo to join you? Not particularly, I'd rather join him.

[73:50]

Well, are you going to stop being you and join him? No, but I might do something about these doubts that keep arising amongst me. And what are you going to do about them? I'm going to keep walking forward with them. I don't think I have to stop because I have them. You're going to walk forward with them? What are you going to do about them when you walk forward with them? Watch what happens to them. Well, this is, what do you call it? To go forward with the doubts without using the doubts is just, I'm just suggesting to you, I'm not telling you you shouldn't go forward, okay? I'm not telling you you should be depressed, you know, and curl up in a ball and die. That's not what I'm telling you. I'm telling you you should make these doubts into something that you can use. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If you say so.

[75:07]

But, yes? Yeah, I just... Structurally, I had a different... a little different take on what happened in the story, that the monks would go along and then they would stop and ask... what's the way to Taishan? She would say, go right straight on. And then they would turn away from her and go in the direction that they had been going, which was not going right straight on, which was turning away. And that was the premise on which she said, a fine-looking monk, go that way too. So in a sense... In a sense, it isn't not going right straight on. I think it's an invitation to go right straight on. And making an obstacle of doubt, of their doubt, doesn't mean that they wouldn't go forward. The point that was being raised, the thorn in this, was that they didn't go forward.

[76:15]

Making an obstacle of doubt does not mean you don't go forward. Yes, that's right. Making an obstacle of doubt means you do go forward. And in fact, you don't go forward when you don't make an obstacle of doubt. He told them to go straight ahead, but they didn't make an obstacle of doubt, so they didn't go straight ahead. In fact, they missed an opportunity, that's what they did. And then they wandered off, going nowhere, except just having missed an opportunity. So then she said, you just missed an opportunity. You look like a fine monk, here you're walking around looking like a Buddhist monk, and you're missing opportunities. It's just not good. I don't like it. So then they went. So they felt embarrassed for various reasons. They felt embarrassed that either they missed the opportunity or that this lady was insulting them. They were being slandered or they admitted that they were wrong one way or the other. Is doubt the only possible translation from the original text?

[77:19]

Or is there another name for doubt, possibly? You mean the one where it says they didn't make an obstacle of doubt? Yeah, any one. I mean, they're using the word doubt throughout here. I don't know what the character is. Probably there's some other translation. What do you think another translation might be? Well, indecision, worry. It could be any little nuance around. what we normally think of as doubt, which might be... Doubt, when they arrived at the lady, already they had doubt. Their mindset was already doubt because they were looking for someplace other than themselves. That's one of the criticisms of them, right? They were looking outside themselves. They were looking for Mount Utai. They were asking this lady, where is it? How do you get to it? How do you get to Manjushri? So already that's their doubt. They don't trust where they are already.

[78:21]

So you could say that they were worried. Indecisive. You could say that they were indecisive, I suppose. Or you could also say that they were worried, but they had doubt about their worry. that they're indecisive and they have doubt. You can be worried and indecisive and still have doubt about that. In other words, not realize that worry and indecisiveness are the way. You can think, okay, when I get over my worry and indecisiveness, then I'm going to be able to go forward in this program here. You could think that. So where they were was looking for the mountain. That's where they were. And then she said, go straight ahead, and they thought it was over there. When actually, it was asking where the mountain is. The mountain is going straight ahead. Yeah, asking where the mountain is. Yeah, asking where the mountain is could be going straight ahead too.

[79:27]

Yeah. So let's do that, shall we? We are. Yeah, we are, right. So let's do that, shall we? You say we are. We are. Let's do that, shall we? Let's not do that, shall we? So anyway, this is a hard koan, they say. A lot of wonderful Zen people have worked on this for a long time. So this is what maybe you should put, sort of, again, store it in your heart there with the calf, And keep working on this one along with the other one. Don't expect to solve this. This is one more to live with. And I think it goes nicely with number nine. Number nine is, that one's going to be there until there's world peace, right? You can't let go of that one until there's world peace. So that's one just to sort of store there. And try to find a way to station number nine in your heart

[80:29]

in your throat, in your abdomen, in a way that you're comfortable with it so it doesn't make you sick and yet it should also have a little, what do they say? There's sand in the rice and there's thorns in the mud. It doesn't mean you should have sand in your throat or be breaking your teeth on your rice or that you should have thorns ripping your heart apart, but just that you have to be careful to station this dilemma in your body and mind in such a way that it keeps some tension there to keep you awake, and yet you hold it in such a way that you can hold it. If it's too uncomfortable, you'll drop it. So you want to hold it in a comfortable way, even though it's an uncomfortable problem. This one, I don't know if you feel uncomfortable with this question, It might get more uncomfortable later, yes? I'd just like to make a comment about it from a very contemporary perspective.

[81:37]

Comment about? This poem, and that is one of the very few poems, there was a very limited number of poems that even remotely allude to women teachers. And I was sitting with a song not so long ago where in their chants they included, in the dedications, they included a line to the many great women teachers, the many great nameless women teachers in the ancient texts. So I just wanted to bring that up because we're mentioning Jojo Singh through and through and through and through, but there's also a wonderful teacher in that woman, and that current study doesn't often remind us of that. Thank you. Thank you. When you mentioned world peace with Case 9, are you talking about sort of outward world peace between nations and things? Well, I'm thinking of the inner world. I'm talking about both. If everyone comes first, then we'll know the other one's second.

[82:46]

If you run upon either one of them, let me know. In fact, Shakyamuni Buddha did find inner peace, apparently, but there were still wars in the world at that time that he found that, but somehow he saw that saw something very encouraging, which he then shared with people, and they felt encouraged. So his way of peace spread, but it didn't eliminate all war. But that's what he was working for. Buddhist precepts are trying to facilitate peace in the external world, in the world of things. But I don't... You know, I see the world, I see the universe as a violent place. So we need to develop peace in the context of the stars blowing up and stuff like that. Act locally and globally . What?

[83:49]

Act locally and globally . Yeah, let's act locally. It has no sign. It has no sign. It has no sign. No, it has no particular signs. There's no special signs that you can be sure would bring peace. So we have our little village here. And then we have other villages which we go out to visit and which come to visit here. And we sing our village songs and do our festival drinking and stuff like that. And we can work on our songs, too. we can get more into our songs. If the stars didn't blow up, there wouldn't be any heavy elements. And if there wasn't any heavy elements, there would be no life. And if there was no life, we wouldn't ask how.

[84:50]

And if there was no life, we wouldn't have any heavy dudes or ladies. Heavy dudes or heavy chicks. A dude is a guy and a chick is a gal. He's heavy like Stuart and Nate. What? He's heavy like Stuart and Nate? Do you put Stuart in your class? Well, in a certain way. In a certain way, you went forward. I felt that as a crazy thing. Gravitational pull was... The heavier people had more gravitational pull.

[85:52]

I've noticed. Gravitational pull. You said, what's gravitational pull? Gravitation? You don't know gravitation? You know electromagnetic radiation? Yeah, I know them. Gravity. Yeah. So, bigger people have more gravitational power. They pull other people to them a little bit more. It's true. I thought it was the Earth. What? I thought it was the Earth. You thought what was the Earth? Larger people have stronger gravitational pull. They pull the Earth more to themselves. Yeah, to each other, too. In both ways. To each other, yeah. They pull to each other. It's kind of a beautiful thing. So there's certain advantages of being heavy. You don't get spaced out as much. You don't get spaced out as much. Yes? Yes? So when you say that you were saying that you can come to some certain level of understanding of this co-op, often about it, but that is considered very difficult co-op to understand or to pass.

[87:03]

Is that more to do with So you say it's difficult to understand this koan as a realization in your life? Yeah. Yeah, this is one of the hard ones, this one, number 10. People have more trouble with this one than there are some other ones. So what I'm asking is... There are some koans that are easier. But it's not... it doesn't seem so difficult just to understand it the way we've been talking about it in class. No, that's what I'm saying. The discussion... our discussion here for this koan in some ways is easier than some of the other... than... than some of the other ones. Like number six is intellectually quite difficult for people. Kind of like people read that and go, oh no. This one doesn't seem to... people kind of... they laugh or they think it's cute.

[88:07]

And our discussion, I think, is pretty much in line with the discussions that other people have had about this cone. And we can make various statements, like that guy who said these people were, what do you call it, it was a tie, that they were equally matched. We could say that. We can talk like that. That's fine. But that's not exactly what a koan is. We should talk about these things. And in fact, the commentators on these koans do talk like that. They get all that stuff straight. This is the verbal and literal meaning of these things, which we should understand and get all the words straight. But then, to live the koan, so the koan is your life, there's three levels of insight. First level is what we call through hearing. Shrutamaya prajna, insight through the ear, through the eye, to get the words and the story in and discuss it, okay? The next level is reflecting on it, to think about it.

[89:11]

The next level, which is called cintamaya, cinta means of the mind, to reflect on it in your mind, to think about it in all different ways. The third way is bhavanamaya prajna, insight by actually your being, the way you are, okay? Well, all three. But all three would be the realization. And some koans, it's easier to do all three than this one. This is one of the hard ones. The first one, this one, is not much harder than the other ones. But to understand this koan through your whole body, for it to be physical, this is a harder one. than some of the other ones we've studied. Okay, so, since it's so hard, we're not gonna, I'm not gonna spend, you know,

[90:17]

forever on this, but just have it be another one that you register and keep with you, and I hope it's of use to you forever, or as long as you need it. And then next week we'll go to number 11, which is about Zen sickness, a special sickness that you only get from practicing Zen. Actually, you only get from being somewhat successful. But still, even though it's only the 11th case, I think it's time to study it. Do you say, oh, no? And if you want to study it, if you want to read it, you can get a copy from Fu right over there. She has them, and she can give you a copy. Does this case appear in other collections? I haven't found it in other collections yet. I haven't found it in other collections.

[91:24]

But there's a lot of other writings on Zen sickness which we can perhaps reference.

[91:32]

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