I actually have kind of a dilemma in general, but on one side I feel like we have this practice, this very, you know, straightforward practice of saving and service and, you know, working and, uh, talking about it is in ways that we seem to do that, not necessarily. But then I forget that people are talking to yourself in your head while you're doing the practice. And sometimes what they say is like, why are you doing this and how are you talking about it? Yeah, so maybe just get to call it to ignore you. Since the scriptures are not necessarily written on the walls and on the trees. So, um, so I speak again, um, and actually I, I, um, in one sense here, We're coming to the end of the touch speed, and some of you are going to try to have a little break, I guess, in touch speed.

[01:13]

We don't need to break somewhere else. Some of you are going to leave house of horror, I guess. And also, some of you aren't going to be able to see me anymore. to talk to. So, in one sense, I don't want to open any major wounds in your psyche just before you leave. On the other side, I feel like I'd like to open up some new light sentimental material. I don't even know it's too late and not a good time. That's not a dilemma I have. Of course. Of course. You have this somewhat, you know, some understanding what they're talking about, and now I don't necessarily want to tip it over, but it might happen. But before I tip it over, I want to just remind you of some very basic things, and that is this nice little quote from the Lotus Sutra, where the Buddha says, those who practice all virtues are...

[02:28]

are gentle, and soft, and harmonious, and upright, they will see the Buddha teaching the Dharma right now. So that's the practice of the nutshell. We practice all virtues. and gentle, harmonious, and popular. And then I will apply this class here. I practice all virtues because I'm asked as to, you know, get scared. going to the mud with all beams, which also means heating, of course, basically means heating the mud of your own body.

[03:39]

Sink down into your experience moment by moment of pain and pleasure and whatever phenomena is manifesting through your experiential dimension. sink down into that, be, uh, be, um, completely present with it. Don't indulge in it, don't turn away from it. This is, uh, compassionately listen to and experience what's happening. And then when you get there, the jamsaw, and my mom is with the situation, and throughout life, they continue to be balanced. So when you settled in a balanced way, now continue to be balanced in that practice of all virtues. Getting dirty while you're, you know, you can help yourself be present, but also getting dirty can help all beings who are down in the mud. So that's, that's practice basically, you know, you've learned from all of them many, many ways.

[04:45]

Practice about virtues, be gentle, express, and you will see the Buddha. In that situation of being present with your experience and upright, The meditation on emptiness naturally unfolds. We don't recommend an active, you know, what's called a personal effort, kind of dualistic application of analytic meditation. But that does not mean that analysis, meditative analysis, is not going on. In fact, meditative analysis spontaneously arises, in other words. the experiences you're having naturally come up and unpack themselves, dismantle themselves, they penalize themselves right before you. In other words, they show you their dependent horizon. In other words, they show you their lack of inner resistance. In other words, they show you their ultimate mode. And having an ultimate mode of thinking to deal to us is all new then for liberation.

[05:49]

But to have the ultimate mode revealed to us prior to us practicing all virtues could, what do you call it, just be like a badly seized snake. But if you're completely present with your experience and upgrading it, then the ultimate truth, the ultimate motive existence, the ultimate way of what the things you're experiencing are, will not be harmful. we will not mishandle it. Now, one other thing I want to say, one more pitch here for the language pitch, and that is I think it would be good if we could somehow

[06:51]

You know how to seize a snake called the word absolute. I'm not saying you should banish it from the English language. It has a purpose. It's a word you use to meet people who use the word. But in Buddhism, especially in the teaching of Nagarjuna there, there's no place for absolutes. And the word absolute has this It makes a suggestion of something that exists in and of itself. The Word Absolute has that nuance of something that exists in and of itself, something that's independently existent. Whereas in the teaching of the Middle Ages, nothing is independent, including nothing. Nothing is also not independent. Even emptiness is not independent. So the word absolute, you should be careful of using that.

[07:55]

And, you know, I looked up the root of the word. The word means ab, which means away from. And solvere, which means to loosen. So to loosen away from. So a thing that's absolute is kind of loosened away from. It's pulled away from context. It has an independent kind of context. So phenomena and truths, all Buddhist truths are not, well, excuse me, the ultimate truth in Buddhism, the ultimate truth in Buddhism, it is not an absolute. However, funny thing is that what we call conventional truths is like an absolute. You know what I mean? That what people's conventional view of our experience is, is that things are absolute. They see themselves, they see objects, okay? and they attribute independence to it. They think the thing is there, kind of like a loose, you know, loosened away from everything else all by itself.

[08:58]

So actually, the conventional truth, the truth for discriminating consciousness, is that various things are absolute. So the first truth There's two truths that are taught by the Buddha. The first truth is the truth of the conventional truth, samvritti satya. Samvritti satya. Samvritti means, you know, one of the samvritti is to cover or conceal. So it's the kind of, and satya means truth, it's the concealing truth, or the truth of the concealer. What's the concealer? The concealer is discriminating consciousness. which projects independence on its objects, which projects absolutes onto relevance.

[10:02]

That's the truth which conceals or hides truth, actually. It's the concealing truth, or the truth of the concealing. And also, one way to start talking about truth is that truth is something that the way it appears is like it exists. So, although it's called conventional truth, it's not really a truth. Because the way things appear is not the way they exist. The way they exist is that they exist in relationship. Everything exists in relationship. Nothing is independent. We project... over phenomena, independence or absolute existence. But there is, and we must use, that conventional truth. That's not a truth. Ultimate truth is actually a truth, because the way things appear is the way they are.

[11:12]

Ultimate truth is actually the truth because in ultimate truth, the way things appear is the way they are. In ultimate truth, things appear to a lack in their existence. Things appear in relationship. Things appear as dependent and co-arizing. All phenomena... What do you mean by appear? They're actually objects of knowledge. You actually perceive that things lack in your existence. And the way they appear to you, it's the way they look, the way you know them, is just like they are. You know them like they are. In other words, you know that they're just coming to be out of dependence. And that's the truth. The other truth is a truth where they appear to be one way, but they don't really exist that way. They appear to be conventionally existing, but when you see them conventionally existing through conventional truth, the conventional truth is that they are conventionally existing. Conventional truth is They exist independently.

[12:18]

So it's funny, isn't it? That when there are things that come to exist through causes and conditions and have that kind of wondrous, conventional, temporary appearance, then we lay this thing over on top of them and make more out of them than they are. And that's conventional truth. That's ordinary worldly knowledge. Ordinary worldly knowledge is basically to make too much out of things. To see things the way they actually exist, to actually perceive the way they, in the same way that they exist, that's the ultimate mode. The ultimate mode then is not exactly the same as liberation, it just is a condition for liberation. And the other one, the other view, unaided by the Secondary, the Buddhist-ness evolved this, unaided by the ultimate truth, then you're just inbounded. The one thing I want to say is that I think I, whether I said it or not, I think I was able to say something like the two truths are two ways of seeing the same thing.

[13:34]

I'd take that back if I said that. I would say more it's like the two truths are two ways of seeing. But there's not a thing of it that they see. The two truths are in the same realm of being. In that way, they're one, because they're really two aspects of life. But they're really two ways of seeing, not the same thing, The two ways of seeing it. In other words, the two truths are actually objects. They're phenomena. Two kinds of phenomena. One kind of phenomena. Phenomena of something being concealed. It's a phenomena that has a concealing over it, or a layer over it. The other phenomena is things that they are coming to be, moment by moment, or have come to be. What do you mean by seeing that?

[14:47]

Well, an object of knowledge. Nyaya. You know, a nyaya, unknowable. Like in the Heart Seeker, it says, you know, there's two kinds of expressions. Actually, there's three. There's karmic, karma avarana, klesha avarana, and nyaya avarana. So, these truths can be known. They can be known. They can be objects. They are objects. And so, in fact, we do know, we go around knowing things that inherently exist. We know of things that inherently exist. That knowing, that type of knowing, that object if we know in that way, that's the dimensional truth. We also can know things. As an object of knowledge, you can know something as as lacking in your existence. At that time, however, your knowledge is no longer an obstacle, there's no longer an instruction, and you're no longer afraid.

[15:53]

I think what I've done is the two truths are just three ways of seeing the conventional. That's pretty good, that's better. Yeah. And seeing the conventional as conventional, is the ultimate truth. Seeing the conventional as ultimate, I mean absolute, is concealing the conventionality and the arbitraryness, not arbitraryness, but the codependence, the dependence of the conventional. Okay, now, How are you doing with that?

[17:02]

Yes? Yes. Or is it that fusion between who you are? Are you asking a question about the object now? Yeah. Object of perception? So what's your question? Knowledge, perception. You see the object's knowledge. Is it also a combination of us and our knowledge and the object's knowledge? That is the vision. Um... Well, to say that the object has knowledge is a little bit beyond the scope of our discussion so far, as introducing a new dimension, I... But if I could build up to that, maybe, and that is, I'm just saying now, in addition, instead of saying that there's a truth over on the side of the procedure, you know, and then that truth is the way you see things, actually, I'm putting the...

[18:16]

I'm shifting the language into that the two truths are objects, are phenomena. So it isn't that, it isn't, yeah, so one kind of object is an inherently existing object. That inherently existing object is, for the person who's looking, an object, and they think it's a truth. who think that that object is the truth. In other words, they think the way it is, is the way it appears, the way they're thinking about it, is the way it is. And they actually have made a statement about its mode of existence, and its mode of existence that they're stating in the conventional realm is that it exists independently. You could say seeing the object that way is the truth, but I'm saying no. Put it the other way, the object is the truth.

[19:19]

See, you just see the object. Of course, you make the object that way because you project this phenomena by the way you see. But for you, it actually is that way. Object actually inherently exists. However, it doesn't inherently exist. But you see it that way. So the way you see it, or the way it appears to you, the way an object appears to you, is that it inherently exists. However, it doesn't exist that way. So it's not a truth, really. It's only a truth for the obscuring consciousness. Now, what about the other things, where what you see out there, the way it looks, when it appears to be, is actually what it is. That's in the mode. So then what you see is everything's... and are dependent on everything. Nothing is like absolute and cut least from this context. You don't see it that way. Is that the same type of understanding?

[20:24]

I don't even have to use this. This is a regular, old perception. Right. It's just that the object has changed. So the same equipment you use to perceive inherently existing objects will now perceive non-inherit ways to be around. In other words, you perceive emptiness. In other words, emptiness is just the ordinary, it's an ordinary object of knowledge. Completely ordinary. In other words, it's more ordinary than the conventional things you see. It's perceiving without messing around. And what you want to say is that it's the object of perception that makes it that way, and the perceiver? No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying the truth These two truths are objects. You see, it makes them no more than objects. It doesn't make them like something out there. Okay?

[21:24]

There's not like a thing out there called the two truths. They're just two objects. They're phenomena. Now, of course, one person looks out and sees what the phenomena they see is called the first truth. the truth of conventional existence, in other words, the truth of things that are inherently existing. One person sees that, or one consciousness sees that. Another consciousness, for example, the consciousness of what we call Buddha, looks at how he sees the tenderly co-arising things, all of its place. In other words, the object that the Buddha sees is ultimate truth, left and right. Did Buddha ever see the ultimate truth? No. and people who aren't Buddhists can see both. Sometimes you see one, and sometimes you see the other. So the Buddha, all the objects of the Buddha are, you know, lack inherent existence, are empty.

[22:40]

Jennifer's question hasn't been answered yet, I don't think, in a way. That question I was going to ask you about this. Marianne. Marianne's question. Can you hold your question for a second? Now, Marianne was talking about this thing she read in Dogen where something about the Buddha is something about the communication between us and the Buddha. Something about that? I guess it would be that the meaning of Buddha is that for you, everything you experience is dependent upon religion. I think we need to put down this thing about the consumer and the object.

[23:47]

And although the object is, you see it, I mean, not the very reason, but you are beautiful in the object and there's something happening there. Also, that's, that's a rise in science. It's true, I see it too there. So, everyone's not only the origin of the horizon, but you are part of that experience in the observance. To me, it sounds like you're making too much out of it there by saying you are part of your thing. This is just talking about truths, okay? Two kinds of truths. There's no you being discussed with us. Nobody's going to bring up you or me at this point. If you want to, we can do it, but, you know, this is talking about, we're just walking around all day long just receiving objects. Right now, you're doing it. This question of what kind of objects are you perceiving? including looking around and having a sense of perceiving yourself. Yourself's one of these things.

[24:49]

But you can look at somebody's face, or think of the Buddha, or look at the wall, okay? And you can also project some idea of yourself out there and look at that. When you look at yourself, when you think about yourself, what do you see? There's just two truths, two ways you can see yourself as an object and be aware of yourself. One, is as an inherently existing independent operator. This is the usual way. The usual way, in other words, is to make an Absolute out of yourself. The other way, is to see yourself as dependent, is to see yourself as dependent, as a polarizer, and that's called enlightenment. Enlightenment is, advises with that. In other words, that's all Dharma is coming for, you can bring them to self. Rather than, I'm over, I'm, I'm this thing, going around, and finding anything, doing all this stuff. That's the relative meaning to the absolute. Okay. Now that's the name.

[25:50]

Name. You're kind of answering my question. It's just how I feel it. You're not sort of using the same language to describe. Seen. Non. Seeing an object, an inherently existing object. Seeing a non-inheritable system. But it seems, under the web, understood it is there's a shift. When you're seeing a non, when you see something, it's depending on the code. But it's not the same. It's not an object of knowledge in the same way. It's not. That's right. It's not. It shifts from being an object of knowledge which has an overlay of identity on it, which has an overlay of independent existence on it, which we are capable of being to objects.

[27:01]

We have a consciousness that people can protect these baggies around everything. And If you're present with that, which most of us have that available to us to see things that way, if you're present with that, then stop messing with it. Stop messing with it means not activating the mind around objects. Lord Godwin says, don't activate your mind around objects. You can sit there and watch your mind activated around objects. Watch your mind wrapping everything with independence. Watch that and watch it. And finally, you notice in some sense, what it is to see an object without activating your mind around it. Then the object appears without that attack itself. And then you can see that the object is in its dynamic relationship with it. The object analyzes itself into its conditions. And so the object starts to appear differently to you.

[28:03]

In other words, it starts to appear as something which It certainly co-arises, and therefore lots of your existence. And still, you see an object. Well, actually, when you see an object, ordinarily, when you see an object, the moment you see an object, it is not you seeing an object. You don't do it that way. We don't do it that way. Not at the moment, not at the moment. What's happening? Please open the door, Mark. Oh, come on. maybe you took your clothes off when you see an object at the moment of perceiving an object you do not say i challenge you you do not say i see the object at the moment of saying i see the object you're looking at the object you're looking at when you ordinarily perceive something

[29:34]

You're not an object when you're looking at another object. Or you can then make another switch from you to look at yourself. In other words, consciousness perceives itself. The self is now the object that's not consciousness. You need to put your very self out there to be obvious in your consciousness. But at that moment, there's not a self out there looking at yourself. As soon as there is, you switch around looking at this one. That's not the way mine looks. It isn't the self that's having the self an object. You cannot know and think about the self unless you put the self out into the object. The mind works according to it. No, the same. It's always the same. It's the question of whether the very well-established pattern of projecting independent existence onto objects, whether that gets a break in. That's operating. That's the usual way that people see it. That's the way we sort of, like, work together.

[30:35]

We have conventions about how to project the self, about how to project identity into your existing environment. We do it with language. Put a word on it. Walk around, you know, have this experience, have this experience. We just do that. We pull up a word and put a word on it. Everything we experience, you've got to wait for it. Everything we experience, you've got to wait for it. Everything we experience, you've got to say that. Knowledge. This is about knowledge. All this truth business is about knowledge. In a realm that's not about knowledge, we're not working there. This is not the problem area. Problem area in terms of objects of knowledge. That's the ultimate cruncher that stops us, is these objects of knowledge, things we know. That's the final thing that has to be dropped in order to become fearless in the world. This is about knowledge. I mean, the operation, the mind, the way the mind operates, the funny thing is, again, is that the ultimate way of seeing things is the most basic, the most ordinary.

[31:37]

It's like, you know, not quite putting yourself into a coma, but turning yourself way down to like the basic idols. Like if you look in the Abhidharma charts of the Theravada Buddha, you know, they have all these states of consciousness, you know. And then they have this very, like, they have this kind of consciousness, I think it's called Kriya Vidhyama, something like that, which means, like, the basic function that all minds are going through, and, you know, I've got all these overlays of all these consciousnesses. But the Buddhists also have that going on, just like we do. And so they just can dip right down and just operate in this very kind of like, hey, you, that kind of thing, you know. Hey, you, it's like that. Hey, you, yes. But Buddha, huh? It's the same, you know, just very basic. So when you're perceiving the ultimate mode of existence of an object, when you're perceiving the ultimate mode of existence of cold, the ultimate mode of existence of heat, the ultimate mode of existence of pleasure, the ultimate mode of existence of pain, the ultimate mode of existence of self, of Buddha, when you perceive these things as an ordinary functioning perceiver,

[32:52]

mode is just completely ordinary what's almost extraordinary is what you're seeing what you're seeing is light you know you're seeing the universe come together on this object and now you just put your hands together and you have slight smile anyway it's very neat if you've just recently been putting this junk on just recently up until recently and also for quite a while before that you've been putting stuff on this object for eons and eons, and suffering because of it, and now there's a break. Instead of doing this extra special thing, which is very common, onto objects, and preceding them by an ordinary acceptable way, now you stop doing that and continue to precede in an ordinary way, and now we're preceding the ultimate truth, which is actually just the way things are, it corresponds to the way they do. But in the way they are, overlaid by our fantastic imagination system.

[33:53]

Okay? But the perceptual process is like very ordinary in some ways. Now it's just really relaxed and it's so easy to see things this way. Charlie and John and Mark and David and Anna and Wendy and Roberta I thought you said it previously that the Buddha seems to do simultaneously. Right. But today you said the Buddha just seems to be the ultimate thing. Yeah. So the Buddha seems to do simultaneously, but the Buddha doesn't see two things through the first two. The Buddha doesn't actually believe. that things inherently exist, but the Buddha can see that there is that truth. Because the Buddha sees the truth, but doesn't perceive it as, it's not as understanding.

[34:57]

So that's it. The Buddha sees that the conventional truth has to be taught in order for people to be taught the other one. Sees that, keeps that in mind, and teaching it all the time. So in that sense, the Buddha sees it. Sees the necessity of it, might say. Sees the efficacy of bringing up that truth. But the Buddha doesn't actually see that truth. For the Buddha, all objects are empty, completely empty. Emptiness, you see, is an object. It's not this kind of, like, nippy, fluffy thing. It's actually an object. It's actually something you see. And maybe just before I answer the questions, I'll just briefly mention that emptiness, the structure, the world of ultimate truth, okay, is a lot of emptinesses. It's not one big, fat void. It's a structured void. Highly structured. How is it structured? It's structured, it's not equivalent to, it's not identical like a photographic image of conventional reality.

[36:02]

But it's structured by conventional reality. Because it is the conventionality of conventional reality. The conventionality of conventional reality is not identical with conventional reality. It's based on it. So, if you have an emptiness of a person, that means you have some kind of person. Some person comes together in some way. You see how it comes together. You see it's the pentacle arising. You see it's emptiness. That's the emptiness of that person. That's not the emptiness of another person. Each person has their own emptiness. So there's all these different emptinesses. So in the big picture of ultimate truth, there's all this content. What's the content? It's not all the inherently existing things piled up in the relationships. It's all the, you know, the emptinesses of all, the particular emptinesses of all these things. So there's this interdependent, and that's also another reason why the emptinesses are also not inherently existing, because they're also related.

[37:11]

So all these different lights, you know, all these different radiances are pulsating and working with each other. but they're very definitely located. They're all hooked into some conventional existence, because there is conventional existence. If it's a conventional existence, it's a fact, not more, in that realm. So it's a jam-packed, highly social world of emptiness, with lots of different emptinesses playing with each other, and also their constant is pulsating and changing, because their only existence as long as the thing that their emptiness of is around. They don't, like, hang around later in a library of previous emptiness of things that are no longer alone. So it's the current living emptiness of all things. Now let's see, next question. Is it John? I want to just briefly describe a kind of process of moving to the modes of perception.

[38:11]

Okay. Because I'm trying to figure out how corresponds to the way your thought is. And I have a feeling it does, but I'm not sure exactly how. So it's one, two, three. One, I think, is that the perceiving object is entirely existing, which is basically not having your expectations disappointed. And so seeing things is kind of boring. not seeing the same quality as people have always seen, seeing the same object, people are not having any problems just kind of putting the conventional labels on things. And then the second way seems to be a kind of dynamic process where there is some kind of questioning of who is perceiving. So it's walking along the creek and noticing that, not only noticing that there's a rock falling down, but seeing this whole kind of sweep of movement. of the mountains and then questioning the kind of salient time spans for me as a human or me as just kind of walking along and then seeing this whole kind of movement and seeing the mountains as walking.

[39:18]

And then more than, you know, hearing a bird and then wondering what all of this looks like from a bird's point of view. Yes. And the third is where there isn't this kind of analytical process but there's just a lot of, kind of, surprise. You know, there are colors you've never seen, there are sounds you've never heard, and there's a kind of a lot of them still, which seems to come after, and the second seems to kind of prepare the ground for the third. Yes. The way for the third. Now, can you see that as... corresponding to the conventional and ultimate? No, I would see it as corresponding to... The first one sounds like conventional, pretty much. The second one sounds like medication leading up to leading up to the ultimate.

[40:19]

And the third? The third is just that everything you said, whatever it was, each one of those things is just uh depending on the color rising period that's it and um if i could possibly just shift a little bit to another practice period 1994 just studying possible right and he has this teaching about that he had this company had his mind of projecting inherent existence on them right That's the first thing. Things are going pretty well. There's suffering, yes, but basically the system's hanging in there. Then you have, but what in the system is that the concepts that you're dealing with, which is the obvious of your knowledge, okay, you've projected inherent existence on you, that's the system, the conventional world. Then you start studying what's called vignapimatra.

[41:23]

In other words, you start studying the fact that these concepts that are that you project reality onto, they're actually just concepts. You know, you start wondering, you start questioning, you become suspicious, not of the concepts, but of your belief that they inherently exist. You start to be suspicious. You start to be questioning, and things start moving. You move into another realm, but it's another realm within conventional, and you still believe in conventional reality. It's kind of an immediate realm called training, in Dignati Matra. Then there comes a time which is called Dignati Matra Siddhi. Siddhi means you master it. In other words, you actually see things as just concepts. In other words, you see the conventional world as just the conventional world. And then these wonderful experiences you have of surprise and swirling, blah, blah, blah, okay?

[42:24]

That can still happen, but you also see that. as just conventional. It is better, in a way, it's more fun, in a lot of ways, than ordinary kind of boring. But sometimes what happens in those realms is the boring comes and gets you there, too. But it sounds like the person's moving, moving out from the usual patterns and basically elaborating and intensifying the study Oh, what's happening? And if you're present and upright, part of the reward you give is loosening up and putting you information and surprises and stuff like that, starts coming to you. In other words, this is the harbinger of revelation of dependent core rising. But when it actually reveals itself, it would not be. There's no doubt about which it would be different from the previous one. So you could wake up with dependent core rising while being surprised by something. or by being totally stuck, you know, totally in cooperation with the program, you wake up right there, too.

[43:31]

But given what you said and given that I know you, I think you're moving into the training of this, that your description is not the description, because there's no, there's no Dharma by which you would specify how the thing would look different. It isn't... But isn't that what you're perceiving like? So what's the role of conventional modes projected onto existence? I mean, it seems like we do that. But once the ultimate is attained or non-attained or whatever, what happens to those habits? Well, there's two kinds of habits. One are conventional habits, you know. And among the conventional habit, there's one that will drop, and the rest of them will go on. The one conventional habit is to make the conventional into absolute. That one will drop. And all the other equipment will keep going. You'll still be drawn to me until you come to me and specifically tell me that you've changed your name.

[44:39]

And even then, we'll have to have a discussion about it. But what about... A conventional discussion. So all the conventional equipment goes on as usual. Certainly. Certainly. So because laziness of perception can be a kind of set of perceptible habits also goes wrong? Yes. You know, lazy, lazy perceiving do this. Although people might come up to them and say, you know, excuse me, but we'd like to kind of make a course. And, you know, we'd like to sharpen up your perceptions because you're such a wonderful person and we want you to be able to do this other thing too. Okay, fine. I got no investment in being the kind of person I was when I first woke up. I don't know who was next. I think it was Mark. Was I? I think so. I'm not sure. Well, Charlie kind of asked my question. Okay. When we were talking about it, I remember something that Kyrie Roshi used to talk about. Yes. Although, I'm not sure. Anyway. Yes.

[45:39]

He said that we should... being vibrated between form and emptiness very quickly, incredibly fast. So I'm wondering if that is the same as going back and forth between the two truths, seeing the conventional truth on one side and then seeing the ultimate truth on the other side, and actually this vibrational mode where they're almost the same, but not quite the same, but you see them. I can't say what he meant, but now we're talking about form and emptiness, okay? Form's a possible object. Another one is feeling. Another one is concepts. Of course, all these things are concepts when we know them. But this applies to both conscious and unconscious processes, or objective knowledge and non-objective knowledge, same process going on. Then there's consciousness itself. It cannot be perceived as an object. except this concept of consciousness, and then this huge mass called the force ganda, which is all kinds of mental formations.

[46:42]

All these things, except for consciousness, can be an object of knowledge. Now, the vibration, one vibration is there's an object of knowledge, you should vibrate between that object, seeing the object, and realizing its emptiness. Yes. Or the conventional. Yes. Where does the... Actually, they also feel like two entirely different modes of perception. One is like they're liberated. Same mode of perception. Same mode of perception. So one feels like they're bonded. One is in bondage and the other isn't. Same mode of perception. Which is good news, by the way, folks. You don't have to get your perceptual process done. You can go ahead with your basic same brain, same body, same culture, same friends. Unless your friends don't try because it's in. Same phrase. Bondage.

[47:44]

And without remodeling your consciousness, just keep cranking it away and not see the new thing. Where does liberation arise? It arises, liberation arises out of, liberation arises out of, liberation arises out of, what does it arise out of, David, tell me. It seems like that object of knowledge. Yes, and what is the object of knowledge that liberation arises out of? The ultimate truth. Gotta have the ultimate truth for liberation. That's the character number 10. Tasker 24. That's what it says. In other words, he's seeing When you see Dependent Core rising, you see Dharma. When you see Dependent Core rising, you're seeing ultimate truth. When you see Dependent Core rising, you see the ultimate mode of things. The things that Dependent Core rise, their mode is that they lack inherent existence.

[48:51]

When you see that, you see Dharma. When you see Dharma, you see Buddha. When you see Dharma and Buddha and Dependent Core rising and emptiness, you are liberated. You can't stay stuck at that moment. You have nothing to hold onto. You are a liberated thing. And also, you get to have your conscious, your usual, unless you didn't eat enough rice. Zen monks eat rice. Remember that. Eat before enlightenment. Yes. And then eat after enlightenment and brush your teeth afterwards. Okay? Same perceptual process. Different object. Different truth. Different truth. Different object means different truth. Same way of thinking. Ordinary, normal human being. Hopefully. Your mind's working just like everybody else's. Not playing any funny games like making up your own language or something.

[49:53]

You're vulnerable to dictionaries and everything. There you are. People can ask you to have an MRI, everything. Nothing funny about you. You're just one of the boys, okay? You are. You're one of the girls. This is conventional truth. You're into that. You can watch it as well as anybody else. You're a little bit better than us. But when the truth changes, when the object changes, it's hearing different from what it is, hearing just like it is, and you get liberated. What it's all about in our training is to make us so that we would just drop. Just for a minute. That's all right. Just for a minute. Just drop all worldly affairs. Just for a second here, folks. Just for a second. Just sink down into what's happening and just drop. Drop everything and just let something appear without slapping and hearing resistance on it for a second and we get liberated on the spot.

[51:01]

But that requires quite a bit of training. Because it doesn't count to do it in your sort of think about it. You have to be in your body, in your mind, and when it's actually happening, to just let the things happen without all this activating consciousness around and slapping extra stuff on them. Then that's the training, that's the training, that's the training. So John described something that's happening to him while he's training. And as you start the training, things you have to move around a little bit, be a little different. Before you have actually robbed the whole thing, Things start to change a little bit. Your sphincter muscles loosen sometimes. You develop some hip problems. You think things you never thought before. New things appear. Blue Jays start acting funny. All this stuff happens. But that's just sort of like loosening up around the edges. It's like getting ready for the big drop. When the drop happens... There's nothing to it, you know. It's just that you stop messing around, and that's it, and that's the duration. But it's hard for us to train ourselves with that.

[52:04]

That's why, in some sense, we don't need this class, we just sort of do our practice, and the practice does it. If you do the practice, that's it. You know, just follow the schedule, sit upright, you know, chant with your whole heart, you know, bow with your whole body. That does it. That's training yourself, just leaving it alone, just be a Zen monk. It's enough. Of course, it's not, in a way, because you can't believe that this could be all there is to it, because we're talking about ultimate reality here, we're talking about absolutes, so then all stuff comes back in, then you need a class now and then, or perhaps even somebody needs to sort of like call you on some attachment to the understanding of the teaching or something like that, because, you know, we can slip into these new tricky ways, like, you know, I'm not going to speak English. Okay? So that's it. It's training. Just train yourself so that you can now not perceive differently, but perceive something different. In other words, see this thing that's right there all the time, namely the pentacle rising.

[53:12]

It's always right in your face if you just leave it alone. All right? Now, Jack, I want to butt it. Ana wants, do you want him to go ahead of me? Ana gives it up. Can Jack go ahead of you? Objects do not have knowledge. Nobody said that that I heard. If they did, objects do not have knowledge. Objects are objects of knowledge. Emptiness doesn't have knowledge. It's just a question of knowing and the emptiness of an object.

[54:13]

And then knowing the emptiness of objects is knowing an object called the ultimate truth. So the object, and then knowing its emptiness, knowing the emptiness of the object, you are perceiving, you have knowledge of, emptiness of it, and now becomes an object of knowledge. First is the object, then the emptiness of the object. The emptiness of the object can be an object of ordinary perceptual processes, an object of knowledge. Object doesn't have knowledge. Right, yeah, no, I know. I know that. What I was trying to get at is an perceptual process, Is it useful just to see that something wonderful wants to have? It's okay to say has. One can also say is. Okay, then an object is information. Yes, definitely. And what information is an object? It is, huh? It is dependable arising. Every object sort of delivers you information about dependable arising. A perfect example.

[55:14]

Not perfect, but a wonderful. Luminous example. Every object is teaching you the Pentacle Horizon. It's right there saying, do you want me to tell you? I'll tell you about the Pentacle Horizon because I'm an example. And you say, yes I do. Okay, first thing you do is don't move. And just sit there and listen to me. Are you listening to me? Now, listen some more. Now see if you can listen to me and hear those sounds. and not activate your mind around what I'm saying to you. Can you do it? If you can, you're going to get this dependent co-arising, and you're going to realize who I really am. Listen that way. That's what the object is. That's the information every object is given you. All the time. Non-stop. All of them are like that. When you hear it, when you see it, then the object says, now you see how I'm not really here inherently? and how you don't have to like make me into an absolute thing.

[56:17]

And you say, yes, I do. Thank you very much. I'm a happy Roberta. I appreciate the information. Yes. It's useful to see a stuff that is read. Yes. Yes, right. But I like seeing it in terms of information and knowledge. Right, it's good to see it in terms of information instead of knowledge. I don't know. You would say that, you know. No, it's okay. Yes, no. Because everybody thinks like everybody puts an exchange, you know. Right. It is more like information. It's more healthy to see it as information.

[57:19]

To see it as knowledge is incoherent. It's just incoherent to see it as knowledge, that's all. There's no place for that view except incoherence and nonsense. That's unconventional to see it that way. As far as I know, I don't know if anybody had the convention to see it as knowledge. But seeing it as information is among, there's other conventional views of it besides seeing it as information. Seeing it as information is actually not conventional, but it's common sense to see it as information. What you're presenting is common sense, which is more like Nagarjuna would see it. It's useful to have stop signs, they have different colors, and you can look out and you communicate the reason. Cars are not nice to get hit by or get hit in and all that stuff. All this stuff is part of the practical, conventional reality and information about self-science. All of it's there. And the information is coming on and it's very useful and practical. And Buddhists continue to use that. They wear their safety belts when trained to do so. Without training, Buddhists will not wear their seat belts.

[58:21]

The wearing of seat belts by Buddhists is dependent on the co-horizon. It's another information thing. It's all just information. That's all we do. Right? That's it. There's nothing more good than that. And that's liberating if you can accept that. And to have knowledge of it being like that is necessary, but the knowledge is just about, we have knowledge about that and we have knowledge about less information situations. Mainly when we want to make things not very informative and just make them be the way we want them, they were yesterday or something. And we have to close off the information in our knowledge and become knowledge of inherently existing things. And based on that knowledge, we're in bondage. There's a slogan that computer captors have that I like, that I always thought was a good slogan too, and it's information wants to be true. Which they're using, you know, to say they don't want to copyright itself, but it does seem to be something about what we're talking about, too.

[59:24]

You know, I think that's right that information wants to liberate itself. But the key thing is, in order for information to liberate itself, in other words, for example, inanimate objects to liberate themselves. The information will rock to liberate itself. What's necessary is that we hear the anxiety of that information calling out wanting to liberate. The anxiety of things saying, please listen to me. Yes. between you have to listen to yourself, yourself, your own information. When you can listen to your own information, then you can listen to all the other information. It's anxiety. It's wanting to be free because we're in relationships. So if we're in bondage because we won't face our own stuff and open up to our own information and just let it be information without making it into inherently existing. If we won't do that, then all the rocks and computers and numbers in the world are also locked into that bondage. they're crying out to be released too so you save all you know all the numbers in the world are saved by our practice so uh nadia are you still alive that's okay

[60:54]

Ah, yes. A friend of mine used to say, he used to have lots of enlightening experience and coffee. Is that the same thing as saying to enter something, but we don't do it. We don't do it, no. It's the same as that. Same as dropping. But don't make dropping and pass it. Well, the active part of that is No, the practice doesn't do it. The mind, by nature, has an active and passive aspect. So you can say, let it drop or drop it. You can hear drop as the mind has the ability to think of things that it does and it has the ability to think of things that can be done to it. This is just language. I'm just using this language, you know, what it got. There's this wonderful poem, you know, which I don't know the poem, actually. Basically, I'll tell you the narrative of the poem.

[61:59]

The narrative of the poem is there's this guy outside his woman's house, and he calls her servant. The servant's name is Jade, Lily Jade. That's the Chinese lady. She has a little servant named Lily Jade. So he calls, close to the door, he calls, Lily Jade, Lily Jade, because he doesn't want to call. Her name, you know, when people know it's outside of the room. So he calls his service name. So he can't actually say it. It's not the word, you know. And this is where the meaning can happen. Is that he can express some words in somebody and there's a meaning. And in that meaning, the energy of that meaning, the meaning can manifest. say drop i'm trying to i'm trying to talk about how you can let something let experience come up and like you know not activate your mind around it you know i can drop i can drop all that this stuff laid on it is going to drop but also it's it's actually already dropped you know the thing actually evolved simultaneously the thing is actually all by itself and it's pure dependent core rising up

[63:17]

or you can say without the dependent core arising taken away from it pulling the dependent core arising away so it's by itself or pushing self-existence onto it these are ways we activate our mind around objects so just drop all that could we say drop happens drop happens yeah drop happens in other words but also you're willing for that all to drop you trust that you trust you're willing you can see that you can see that that's causing all the problems and you say i would i would i would be willing for that to drop for a second you know and then it drops it actually drops all the time anyway but it also actually crops up there yeah so it's very dynamic so if you're willing for it to drop dropping can be realized by the by the person willing if you're opposed to dropping then that resistance can block it being realized through you so but you can want just like again the I said this before, but I'll say again, bodhisattvas can want to help people.

[64:20]

That's fine. Bodhisattvas can want to drop off body and mind. That's fine. But to say, I help people is not bodhisattva, you know, recommended course. To say, I help people is arrogance. To say, I drop body and mind is arrogance. But to want to help people and to want to drop body and mind, bodhisattvas, that's where they're at. They want to drop body and mind so they'll be happy and everybody else will be happy. They want to help people so that they'll be happy and everybody else will be happy. They want this, but they don't go around and say, well, I did it. And this is the way it is. But if you want to, somehow you're available for things to be that way in your life. And one of the ways to practice makes you want to. Practice comes from wanting to. Practice, when you settle into your suffering, you get to see all these examples of how you activate your mind around them, you call it all that pain, so you say, yeah, I guess I wouldn't be willing to drop this, this boom, you know, activating I'm going around this object.

[65:24]

I'm willing to drop it, because it's, yeah, I'd rather be actually happy and free than smart. And also I know that after I'm happy and free, I'll just be just smart anyway, so. It's a matter of priorities. Second, I want to give Ana one more chance. No. i'll come back later and then i think is i don't know were you ahead of wendy so wendy and jennifer and stewart well a lot of what i was speaking about yeah i saw you nodding well i had um i actually had a diagram that worked for all this but um it had to do with um I wonder if you don't get to draw it. Sure. And why do you think you can draw it?

[66:24]

Would you pass those cards out for me? Our next guest. Thank you. hoping that would calm me down.

[67:25]

So up here, this is conventional, ultimate reality. This is a little X, which is... Yeah, I know. And I call this time. And then there's arrows going in two directions, and I call that eternity. And then there's all these arrows coming in. Let's see what that is. Okay. So here are the five scholars, and they exist conventionally or as you can experience them in the realm of time. And in the realm of time, there's all of this information coming in to the five scholars. And what they're doing is they're just choosing particular ones that they can stand. Because to experience all of this at once, they're not capable of that.

[68:34]

But what happens is this conventional reality will come around it, and the ones that are perceived will be sort of actualized for that group of five skandhas and the given substance. But at the same time, around it is this ultimate reality, which includes all of this information coming in. So, what these five skandhas actually can begin to believe is that they exist in time. And knowing that they exist in time, or that they conventionally exist in time, these two realities can come together and actually liberate them. Gosh. The way this feels then is there's eternity is running through this. And that's where liberation happens.

[69:37]

Because the... The... the ultimate reality that allows the five scholars to see their existing time also allows them to see their existing community so So I think that then what... I'll try again to say what this feels like, because there's actually a sense of all of this coming in, and there's a way that it's released this way.

[70:38]

I wonder, is this like reaching anybody? It's me too. Okay. Okay. I just need to see some notes that I have up there. Well, I think that that's actually what it starts to be. It's indescribable. The unconstructedness of it or the unimaginability or the unthinkableness of it is actually how it releases us one.

[71:53]

It's the effort to take this structure and describe it, or pin it down, or prescribe it, or package it that is the painful part of it. I think that the way this functions is to free us, and I think I've kind of erased everything in here. which is quite interesting because I think that's actually what happens. All of this functions to release this into this experience. When you came to this idea and visualized it, what were you trying to do?

[73:02]

What I think I was trying to understand was something that I read from Meister Eckhart, which was, he says, in order to see God, you must place all of your hopes and desires in eternity. And what that meant to me was, My hopes and desires are something that I contract into a little place and make them substantial. That they actually can be realized or something like that. But when I put them in eternity, then they become, they free themselves. And how do you do that? Yes. How do you do that? Is to know that this conventional reality is conjunctive with ultimate reality.

[74:09]

And that creates them in places. Right. They use an eternity in a different way that's used, you know, in a common Western sense, but knowing the dedication to the Maluma Jamakao, You know, it says not eternal and also not permeable. Yeah, and this eternity is both of those. It's not eternal and it's not permeable. It's not now. See, that's the problem that happens, is that there's a tendency to think that there is a now and there is an eternity. But there's only this eternity. Therefore, if you place everything in it, It all gets sort of spread out. It doesn't keep sticking and sticking and sticking. So now it doesn't stick to you.

[75:11]

Now doesn't stick. Now is what it is now. But it's still stuck. Now it's stuck. Because you're saying something is happening now. That's when you say it. That's when you say it. You don't say it. It's never happening. It happens when it never happens. There's eternity. Because you're not, the sense of it is that it's only the tendency to grab a few of these which creates an idea of time. So, a now is an idea of time. But where else, I mean, what else are we talking about? So the now is grabbing those and putting them into time. I don't know if this is helpful, but it was a way that I could stand to try to explain what I consider to be the experience of this.

[76:21]

And it seems to me that when the first time is noticed, This grabbing, those very, you know, the very things that are created there by that grabbing, just they purify this grabbingness by saying, oh, you know, I'm in eternity, I'm in eternity, I'm in eternity. What you're seeing is just the grabbing and making something out of it. That's all we're seeing. is the grabbing, the specific bits of information that we can see. I don't know. And I also feel that the way then

[77:28]

that this is liberated also is the way it liberates everything um in a very there's not a something that is liberated but what there is is liberating everything at the same time by also by um also letting everything exist Would you like to come back up here? Thank you. I would just need to remark that this unconstructive nature is actually always, it's true, it's because it doesn't seem to be that it's always occurring, it's always immediately available.

[78:55]

And we find it in what we describe as what we're not interested in and what we don't know. That what we're not interested in and what we don't know that is available in some way impacts on us, but we don't construct it yet. We name it, we don't recognize it in some particular way. And every once in a while, something like that leaves up on you. And I realized that there is something there. And then I notice it. And then I have an identity for it and a relationship to it. But my life is filled continuously with all of this unconstructed information. When I hear you say that, then I am, I have just taken whatever happened all over the world, including what you said, and I brought it into, through dependent colorizing, I brought it into some kind of like, something I didn't know, I didn't have an individual experience.

[80:22]

which we, you know, and all that's going on, you just select some part of it moment by moment. But in order for that thing that's selected to do something by itself, a knowable, to put a concept or a rule in it. Otherwise, we don't have, like, we don't have experience for the book to operate. We don't have another kind of experience in terms of knowledge. In the sense experience, although we don't put a word on it, there, too, we're selecting. But in our sense experience, we're also selecting among all these different things. We don't know our sense experience because we don't put a word on it. In sense experience, in our own sense experience, we do not have conventional reality. We don't have a convention about how to feel things, how to see colors, and so on. We do have a convention about how to see colors when they become known to us because they need words.

[81:27]

Conventional reality is equivalent to the world of knowing. Of knowing. However, this conditional thing of attributing more to it than that is also very common and has become basically a convention. Although it must be omitted because the conventional and ordinary can make the conventional world into more than what I just described. And that's the part that causes the pain, and that's the part that actually can be seen through by opening up to the way we made our experience in the first place. You can't figure out how you selected it. That's inconceivable. But you can see how you put the word on it, and you can also see how you put more than that on it. That we can do, that we can witness. And witnessing that is witnessing how hope is coming forward to create something.

[82:35]

And also, it's turned the other way, it's witnessing we bring something forth to put on the coming forth of all things. This is delusion, which when we see it more than delusion, causes suffering. If you just see it as delusion, we're seeing pressure. In other words, we're seeing I believe we create this conversion world. If you'll let it go with that, I see all being here. Yes, Teresa? I feel all so important because I have . So, um. What are you doing? Um, here's . Together? There's no sense. Together, did you say, or separate? Separate. Well, we're very happy to hear that, because otherwise you wouldn't be violating the convention.

[83:37]

Earlier in this past, when we started speaking of that information, or what I call stuff, and then all the fans went up, also i realized like i had to go to my mother's salvation because i was i couldn't say anything so i went back to my two favorite characters which are um 24 11 a long and confusion after being a slow-witted person it is like a behind you see snake or wrong and executing in confusion and 2015 which is you know what someone heard about us it is if you were not wrong before but forget about it Excuse me, Jennifer. I just want to know if you can go on, but it's one that you just said I don't have Instagram.

[84:44]

well that's what i think that's mine but wait you can please continue sorry what do i have and so they told me to do that to keep the record stuck because there was no bell in the class and i was like is there anyone else want to hear a bell go out there and we're all out so those characters brought me back to you yeah so i was really thankful for having me um i want to say that um i don't think including so you don't have anything yeah i don't i would do so much chaos that i'd last

[86:08]

and to use the characters now that's really something now i would like to practice I'd like Neil to tell you how to say the Sanskrit. Say it the right way more than once. We'll do our best.

[87:11]

We'll say it at the end. Okay. The thing about number nine is it says really that's supposed to be Shasta. Actually, it's Shasta. So that R doesn't belong in there. So it shouldn't be Shasta. It should be Shasta. Shasta. Shasta. So there'd be, it'd be like S-H, you know, or it's like, yeah. So number one, that's all known, it's Tathagata. Tathagata. Number two is...

[88:17]

Number three, Samyak Sambuddha. [...] Number four is, that is to give a wine over me. First aid is vidya. There's still a dot under the end in the paragraph. The next is you. Vidya-carana-sampanya. [...] Number five, Namjeevan Sugata. Number six.

[89:20]

And number seven. Number eight is a little bit unfamiliar to me. This is a part of it. There's a little back under the S. And the first S, sorry. And then the S. The A following the second S should have a watermark over it. That's something like Purusha Damya Sargi. Purusha Damya Sargi. Accent on the first U. Purusha Damya Sargi. Purusha Damya Sargi. Purusha Damya Sargi. Number nine, let's do the other one again. One more.

[90:24]

Number nine. It's not in the end. Yeah, if you want to know all of the little funny marks in that one, there's a bunch of them. The first has sort of a cute accent. The first A has a long mark. Then after there's a C there, that A has a long mark. Then Devah and Manusha, the A that follows the N has a long mark.

[91:27]

Then the S, which was a Y, was a Dhanomir. Then the A after the Y is the long word. And the end has a dot under it. And the next A has a long word. What is the dot on the end? That means the tip of the tongue is touching the root of the mouth. When you breathe, you have to say your nose. It's like, Sasa Deva Mahushyanam. Sasa Deva Mahushyanam. An end of the sentence. Thank you very much. Now, see you in the video. Yeah, my question about an answer about that information won't be released. All things won't be released from the society that create us growing them. So that makes me...

[92:30]

After we've said also that we are in the universe, the only beings that we know of that do these object-subject differentiation. So would it be that we have such a responsibility over all beings to realize this, to liberate them as well? Are they suffering just because we're doing this? I don't know if they're suffering just because we're doing this, but I know they're definitely suffering because we're doing this, not just because we're doing this. Maybe they're suffering. They may have some other problems, but we definitely, they're definitely hooked into our suffering, just like we can be hooked into the world. But I think anyway, before you skip to that, we do have a responsibility. That is our responsibility. We have a special responsibility because we have a special problem.

[93:31]

We can become especially wise and especially compassionate. So that is our responsibility as human beings. We have a great opportunity. This is our responsibility. We definitely can cause suffering to other beings. That's for sure. What they would be like if we weren't around, what kind of problems they would have, who would be the leader of that group and have the responsibilities to save the rest of them. And whether they would have the ability to do so, I don't know. But in some sense, since we have the most problems and we can cause the most trouble in the known universe, we have the responsibility to get our thing together and liberate all beings by understanding us.

[94:12]

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