I would like to again talk about perception and conception. Maybe it'll become real clear tonight. So... I hope I'll be easier to understand. So perception refers to a kind of cognition, a kind of awareness where the object is presented to cognition, the actual sense object is presented to cognition, and there's a sense And there's no conceptual, no images, just direct perception of the object.

[01:12]

And this kind of cognition depends on the object, a physical organ. which is called, and the object itself is called the object condition, physical organ, which is called the dominant condition, and an immediately preceding. Then there's another kind of perception, which is mental perception. And mental perception occurs immediately after sense perception. And usually just immediately after and therefore very briefly. And mental perception occurs when the sense perception stimulates the mind into acting.

[02:20]

So the mind is stirred up a little bit now more by that sense perception. And in this case now, this kind of cognition, this mental perception, depends on the previous consciousness. And the previous sense consciousness is also the organ for this mental perception. And there is no object condition. It doesn't really have the object. Is the object as it has already been presented to consciousness by the sense perception? That was Eric's question last week. So that's what I'm saying. Is that mental perception doesn't know the sense of the object as the object is presented to cognition by sense perception.

[03:26]

But at this stage, at this very brief moment there, at the end of sense perception, there is a mental knowing, but there's not yet any conceptual response. No image is being interjected or projected into the perceptual event. So it's not yet conception. So although this mental awareness doesn't directly, it doesn't mix anything in with it. So it's, in that sense, direct perception. The next stage, and this happens so briefly that we almost can't notice it. The way up to that, conception can happen, and in conception now, This kind of cognition arises in dependence on the immediately preceding sense consciousness and also depending on the sense consciousness as its organ.

[04:41]

So its dominant condition is the previously existing sense consciousness and its organ is the previously existing sense consciousness. The previously existing sense consciousness is what gives it something to work with. but there's no object in this case. And the image that is interjected into the situation now changes it from perception into conception, the image or the concept that's interjected. And this image is interjected by force of what the object is, although it has something to do with it. It is primarily chosen by intentional or dispositional reflection. So the image that is brought forth from the mental activity has mostly to do with intentions or dispositions that have been developed in this mind stream.

[05:49]

In other words, having something to do with the habits and values of this mind. it's unrelated to what the object was. There's some relationship, so we, you know, we make some kind of a compromise with what we come up with vis-à-vis what is presented by sense consciousness, but amazingly little, sometimes. Like, for example, when you think somebody is your enemy, you know, but there's no information like that coming through sense perception. So that's the basic difference. And one more important thing is that the object that is cognized then is a mixture of what is presented to mind by sense perception and an image.

[06:51]

You could say memories are the images. In other words... Pardon? In other words, according to this way of seeing it, memory would be a conceptual kind of conscious cognition. Let's say it is conceptual cognition. is, then what we choose to say is happening is by recourse to images that we already had before this happened. So our memories are made up of these images, plus we even use our memory, in a sense, to make up what's happening now. Because we use these images which are inseparable from our memory to account for what's happening now. But you can also say, you could also have an image that says, you could use images which, you know, you already have available in the past to counter what's happening, but you can also use the image to say, this is something that's happened, this is a memory, rather than this is a new thing.

[08:08]

And you use things from the past to decide whether something's new or a memory. But actually, everything in a sense is like, in a way, it's like everything's memory has We're using old names for all new stuff. What is an object? What is an object? Memory is a cognition that uses, that is a conceptual cognition that uses images, ideas, concepts, to establish itself. But one of the concepts you use to make a memory is the concept of this is a memory or this is past. You take away the past, then you say this is present, so now you don't call it a memory.

[09:13]

So now I don't call this Narita memory. So I walk out of the room and then I think of Narita. Could we hold that example of the smell thing a little bit? I just want to finish this one a little bit more. I could look at you right now and say this is a memory or not, depending on whether I come up with the idea or the image that this is a memory. The face is ... I have an image, I have a concept for your face, a concept that this is a face I've seen before, but also that this is actually not just a narita I saw before, but actually this is a memory. And that's what déjà vu is, is getting mixed up about that.

[10:14]

But the funny thing is, is that if you say this is a new nurit, actually I'm calling it a new nurit, but actually in conceptual consciousness it's not a new nurit, it's an old nurit, because I'm using concepts to account for this thing I call new. There actually is a new sense impression of you, but I take that new sense impression and apply old nurits to it. What I call present is actually kind of like a memory. And what I call a memory is also a memory, but it's a memory that's called a memory. But other present things I call present. But really, in conceptual experience, in a sense, they're memories. In a sense. They're not really, because they're brand new conceptual experiences. Stuff to account for new stuff. So conceptual experience in some sense deadens, is a dead version of direct perception in a way. But the other thing which I was leading up to, which is the real problem, is that when we mix the object that's consciousness by sense perception, when we mix it with the image or the concept for conceptual experience, in that kind of knowing,

[11:31]

it's very difficult or virtually impossible for that consciousness to separate the concept of objective data. There is some objective data there. It's coming from the sensory experience. But by putting the idea or the image together with it, they become confused or laminated and we almost can't tell the difference. image which we projected onto the objective data. There is some objective data, but we put the image in there which is not objective, which is put there by dispositional and motivational and intentional reasons for putting it there. Usually this thing is put there as best as possible to promote the system of the mind, to keep the mind system going. That's the disposition, to keep this thing, keep this bugger going, keep this sucker going, I mean. But still, if you could separate the two and see this is like a projection for intentional or a motive, and this is the objective data, you'd still be able to retrieve the objective data.

[12:45]

But once they get mixed, we almost can't separate them. So when there is a conceptual experience, it's not totally made up. It's not just totally like, well, I think this happened. ...happen to stimulate the mind to come up with, first of all, a mental perception and then come up with a conception. There's something there that makes us get going. There is some objective stimulation, but then at the conceptual level it gets glommed together with this idea and we can't tell the difference. And then we start to think that what's conceptual, we think that the concept is objective. And it's not totally wrong. It's just that we grasp the objective through the conceptual. And then the meditation practice is basically to get in there and disentangle this confusion. Tell the objective from the conceptual. Okay? So that's pretty much it, folks.

[13:47]

You have some questions? One, two, three, four, five. Okay? One. That this last thing, the last thing is about the image that for conception what the conditions for the rise in the conception is that the sense perception is the immediately antecedent condition. for the arising of conceptual consciousness. And then the dominant condition for the arising of conceptual consciousness is also the immediate antecedent, sense perception. So as the sense perception presents the object of sense perception, like a color, as it presents it, then for conceptual consciousness, we come up with something like, that's a color, or that's blue.

[14:49]

That's a concept. And we mix that's blue together with the way blue was presented by sense consciousness, which is an objective data. That's blue together with the blue as it came as a sense perception. But once they're mixed, or once they're connected from the point of view of conceptual consciousness, we think that's blue is actually blue. what happened. But, you know, people ... it's been ... and in Japan they say, you know, there are different concepts in different countries, but the thing is that once in conceptual consciousness you think that actually the concept, this is blue, that's actually It's an objectively true thing that this is blue. But actually it's not this is blue, it's something else. But that's mixed together. And that's the problem of conceptual consciousness is that we think that the concept is the object.

[15:55]

And we think that the concept is this nice dependently co-arisen objective phenomena. And it's not. However, conception does dependently co-arise using all these elements, but then in conception we make too much out of our conceptions and we say they're objective, which is an error. It's a projection. Conception is projection. So in conceptual consciousness when you see people and things like that, you know, there's a projection and you think your projection is what they actually are. And your projection not just an objective thing, your projection is an intentional reflection. So reflection means you bend back in a sense, in as many ways as you bend back, come up with a concept and put it out there for some intentional reason, for some controlling reason, for some manipulative thing.

[17:01]

That's what you come up with and then you mix that in with what's going on and then you call the world. really the way you have made it to be, rather than... I mean, the way you've made it to be, you call the way it is, rather than say, this is the way I've made it. I've made this person into my enemy. They didn't come that way. I've made this person into the most special person. They didn't come that way. So you project, for some reason, special person onto this person. But originally they were just a bunch of colors or something, or smells. There is somebody there, but there's a projection mixed in. And for conceptual consciousness it's hard to separate them. So the meditation is to try to get in there and not grasp the image or the concept to loosen things up and finally to be able to see more objectively.

[18:02]

Does that make sense? My mind is very still, and I have the perception that my mind is coming in through divided spirits. You said last week that that's not your mind. You just think that's happening. I think that's what you said. Maybe I did. Yeah, what I meant was, it's not your mind that's causing the... It just is a concept of a split. There's not actually a split. So I'm not watching my mind. You're not exactly... You are observing the functioning of your mind, but the mind doesn't make a split. It's like... I don't know what, like... So I look at Judy and I look at Patty and then I see a split between them.

[19:06]

So you could say your mind makes the split between them. But it's rather that my mind came up with a concept of them being split and then I thought that that concept was objectively so. Well, you said you see the perception, you see the separation. You're looking at good and bad, and then you suddenly see that good and bad are not separate. Oh, you see they're not separate. They're not separate. Yes. There's even just that much movement. I have the experience of my mind coming in and wanting to pull things into good and bad again. Yeah. And I'm wondering if that is... For me, it feels to me like our mind is coming in and doing that. Right, and so what I'm saying is that that's not so much your mind coming in and doing that, separating, but your mind coming in and saying that, coming in and putting a concept on there and saying that they're separated.

[20:10]

So you could say, well, doesn't that accomplish the separation? Well, it accomplishes the conception, the conceptual cognition of a separation. It's a separation. In other words, you can't walk up to two people that are good friends and suddenly conceive their enemies and make them into enemies. You can't do that. Your mind can't do that. But you can think that. You can see, oh, they're enemies. But you didn't really make them enemies. You just have the concept that they're enemies. And the same with... You split your mind, but you can make concepts that your mind is split into subject and object. I think so. I don't know of any perceptions of nothing existing. Perceptions are usually of an object. . But she said that things don't exist is that things don't exist out there on their own.

[21:24]

Well, she said a perception that nothing exists. Didn't you? Well, if you're sitting and suddenly there's no self. Yeah. Is that a perception that there's no self? Well, you tell me, did you see a no-self? So then what you have is you have a perception of not being able to find something. Well, wait a minute, that's it. You have a perception that you can't find something. That's it. That's what it is. It's not that you find nothing, it's that you can't find something. And you know exactly what it is. So it isn't that you find, quote, no self.

[22:26]

It's just that you have a good idea where the self, you know, the self has to be either here, [...] or here. It can't be anyplace else. You're convinced. And you start looking for it. And you don't find it. And you actually have a perception that you have not found something. So you're convinced that it can't be found. which is a big change, because before that you thought you had it. So before you thought, oh, I think I do see the self, or I do have the self. And then you start looking for it and you don't find it. So what you actually experience is you can't find it. That what you thought it would be, there's no such thing as that. But you don't find a no-self. Because there's not like a thing called no-self, it's just that things don't have, there's not a thing But you can find, but you can experience emptiness or have emptiness as an object the way you experience it is by not finding things out there on their own.

[23:31]

And you set it up so that you, that thing, that sense of being out there on their own you have a sense of and you can't find that. You have a sense of what that would be like and you don't find anything like that. Were you next? Yes? But do you want to go ahead of her? Oh, okay. You want to get on the list? Okay, you're number six. Yes? When you said that when you talk about mental perception and that mental perception is the existing condition for mental cognition, The sense perception that is immediately preceding mental perception, is it always that mental perception?

[24:34]

Or can it be? I don't know. I don't know. Sorry. Because it says that the condition for conception is the previously existing sense perception. I don't know if it's before. It might be simultaneous. I'm unclear about that point. Just I'm unclear. I just don't know how that works. I'll do homework on that. Yes? What's your name again? Michael. Michael. Perception of something existing?

[25:39]

Perception of something existing? I don't know if there's a perception of something existing. I think the conception that something, that an object's out there on its own, that conception can live in this mind. of direct sense perception. We go around having direct sense perceptions, and we also carry with us this conception that things are out there on their own.

[26:50]

So in the realm of direct sense perception, there isn't the consulting with this concept that that color is out there on its own. We don't consult the picture, but it's there. In other words, we're ignorant because we still hold this idea that things can be out there on its own, but we don't necessarily heavily apply that in this case because it's direct perception. So we don't bring that concept of direct perception, we don't bring the concept of subject and object being separate, we don't bring that to bear on the direct sense perception. But that concept is still in our mind stream unrefuted until we wake up. But you see, it's not applied to this kind of experience, this kind of objective. But we're just like, we have this, I don't know what, we have this cloud hanging over our head that we could call that outside any moment.

[27:51]

But it's when we get into conceptual level that we interject the concept on this objective data. Then we use it. But even in the sense, even direct sensory perception, we still have this delusion at hand. Because it's, you know, it's innate. It's an innate capacity. So even little kids who are like totally, you know, this organic biological nice thing of direct sense perceptions, you know, without a lot of conceptual intervention and they're very open, they're going to be able to pull this in there. Nobody's going to teach them this concept. So I don't know if I've addressed your question or not. Wow. At this level there's no you, there's no you at this level, except, as I said, as the concept someplace which is not being applied of something being out there and something being over here.

[29:14]

That concept is not being, is not activated in this case, though. So you're not thinking about you all the time. There's just direct The object through the process of perception is being offered to the consciousness, to cognition. There's no out there yet. And there's no out there in mental perception either. Ambient out there, the out there of things can be activated in the conceptual cognitions. Whether it's activated or not, it kicks in at various points according to the, what do you call it, the intentional reflection of conception that sometimes is or frequently is brought in and then it causes all this disturbance. However, I want to also point out that it makes possible, you know, human civilization and all that too. It has some good points. You know, it's the basis of logic.

[30:15]

It's the basis of language. This misconception that we're separate, or that the object possessed by consciousness is separate from the object, that misconception is pre-verbal. Language arises from this misconception, but also language can be used around and refute this whole situation. Language can be used to refute pre-verbal ignorance. Because I think even subhuman, I shouldn't say subhuman, but pre-human, in a sense, beings, have a sense of otherness. But they can't necessarily interject that or translate that sense of otherness into language so that they can find out what their problem is. But one of the means of self is the way a cell identifies what is inside the self.

[31:21]

That's one of the definitions of self. And I think different redwood trees at the tips of their roots can tell that there's a different redwood tree out there. Didn't you tell me that, Tim? Did I get it right? Right. So then that's, so, but they can't interject that into their sense perceptions as far as we know, but we can, which makes things very confusing for us. At the level of direct perception we don't have, without attributing ontological status to things. But our ability to do that is, I'd say, again, innate. And the basic principle of, you know, Segaki ceremony and all that is let's get the ghosts out. Let's bring these things out.

[32:23]

So the point is to the practice of confession and repentance to confess the extent to which we have this delusion of things being out there so we can understand it and become free of it. Because if we don't see it, we'll grasp it. If we can get it out in the open and catch ourselves grasping it, see what the problem is, we can stop grasping. Yes, Dale? You're number seven. is to see into what? ... More specifically, to see how images get mixed with objective data.

[33:29]

Because actually, although we mix them, again, the mixing is due to confusion. It's that the conceptual consciousness can't see that these two things are separate. But direct perception can see that they're actually separate. They don't actually get really mixed. It's just that a confused conceptual consciousness can't separate them. They're actually always perfectly separate. That's the way that things actually are. You don't have to, like, pull them apart. You just have to, like, be able to see clearly and then you can see that they're not mixed. Then you don't confuse them. Yes? a little error coming up in the bottom of the column. You just see one concept point. Coming up, just the entire process of the single concept, just to see that fear of all process.

[34:46]

Thank you. And Kathy, and then Homer? So my question was? Helmer? Yeah, right. So again... Yeah, so the kind of traditional Zen practice is to, well, in one sense, is whatever comes. So that's one training, to meet whatever comes. Which, if you can actually be that way, that means you're to some extent cutting through the conceptions which say, this is what it is, that's not. This is my friend, this is an interesting person, this is not an interesting person, therefore I'll pay attention to this one and won't pay attention to that one.

[35:51]

So that's an example of where you're grasping the concepts of this is interesting and that's not. But if you meet whatever comes, you're training yourself in letting up, in loosening that, acting upon that discrimination. in learning to relinquish that discrimination, and as you train yourself to relinquish this discrimination, you get closer to direct perception. You know, without fasting. Elmer? Well, meditation instruction, like somebody telling you, look at what's happening, whatever happens, pay attention with no sense of asking for an alternative.

[37:02]

That's language, which could train you to which could help you train yourself in such a way that you could loosen up on grasping your concepts. Another example is, like Wang Bo says, grasp anything in your mind. That's another, the words to train you to not grasp the words in your mind. And then further words are, at the beginning of this practice of of not grasping anything in your mind, what you really are doing is confessing that you are grasping things in your mind. So the first phase will be admitting that you're not doing this practice. And that first phase may last for a long time, depending on how diligent you are and how much support you get. But those are words train you to get over words.

[38:05]

So, yeah. Okay? Is your name, is that with a D? G? Oh, Gunther, I thought. Gunther. Did you say Yavol? Do you want me to elaborate? So there was sensory perceptions, mental perceptions, and conceptions. Okay? So the story is physical phenomena And through that interaction there arises consciousness, sense consciousness.

[39:11]

And this sense consciousness depends on a physical object, a sense object, a sense organ, and a previously, immediately preceding sense consciousness. In other words, this can't be the first one in the history of the universe, which is a problem, I guess, for somebody. How'd this start? But anyway, existing could be eons before, who knows, but anyway, the one that was just before it, So those are things that it depends on. So you have now a consciousness, cognition has arisen, and it's a direct sense consciousness, cognition, and it's relating to some objective phenomena. Okay? This previously existing consciousness would, you might say, well that sounds like this consciousness is going on, but unactivated, unarisen.

[40:12]

And it arises when stimulated by an object being presented to it in conjunction with a sense organ. So now this sense consciousness has arisen. Now with the arising of sense consciousness mind then can be stimulated by that. So sense consciousness is not the full extent of mind according to this, you see. There's some mind that's more than just... And when sense consciousness arises it stimulates this mind. It activates the mind. Okay? So there's a mind which has more ability or more range of life than just sense consciousness. But sense consciousness wakes this mind up. When this mind wakes up, by being stimulated by a sense consciousness event which has just ceased, at that moment this mental consciousness, which doesn't directly relate to the objective sense data, but it's actually working with what sense perception to cognition.

[41:21]

And it has another take on this. But there's still no intentional reflection. There's still no imaginal interjection. It's still just perception. It's non-reflection and it's non-intentional. but it's mental. And then comes the conception, which is the beginning of confusion, but also the beginning of all kinds of creativity. Okay? Let's see what time it is. Okay. Yes? Elena? Okay, the first part you asked about was something about how does this ability to conceive

[42:58]

relate to suffering. So we have the ability to conceive, in other words, to come up with ideas and then project those ideas onto events. So we have the idea that things can be separate. We have the idea that subject and object can be separated. All subjects have objects. In other words, because a subject is something that possesses an object. A consciousness is something that knows and possesses. Okay? So that's cognition. Cognitions have objects. Subjects have objects. However, they're not really separate. If they were separate, then you wouldn't have cognition. Cognition's got to have attained. The subject has to attain cognition. its object in other words in order to be and you suffer because then you can be afraid of the things you know because they're out there separate from you all those people all those rocks all those demons on the walls are out there so then you feel threatened you feel anxious

[44:31]

And then with the further aid of the concept of past and future, you can then project that these things are going to come and get me later. But also there might be more of them later. So with the aid of those conceptions, you can work yourself into a state of intense fear. So that's basically how you do it. And then I think, I don't know if this is what you meant, but then once you're in pain, then you think all the more, you better keep doing this. We do things that cause pain, and then when we get in pain we think, this is no time to change my program. Even though this is a good time to change your program, the more pain you get and the more you feel like, this is bad, but it might get worse if I would change anything. So you start gripping tighter and tighter onto your concepts, the more and more pain they cause. Just like the baby, you know, those babies, those little baby monkeys, that crazy guy, excuse me for saying so, his name's Harlow, right? He drove all these monkeys crazy.

[45:32]

And one of his experiments was to have this terrycloth mommy, right, that gave her baby shock. So he touches the mommy, and then he gets a shock, and then when he gets a shock, it holds the mommy that's giving it a shock tighter. Right? And the shock it more, it holds tighter and tighter than... So we can do that, too. To hold on tighter and tighter to that which is... The gripping is... If we would stop gripping, we wouldn't get a shock. So we grip tighter when we get the pain. That's why, actually, to start loosening up, sometimes it's good to relax, sort of, you know, to go to, you know, I don't know where, but anyway, someplace. Yeah, Tassajara during the blank season... ...when you're comfortable, right? So actually, that they have the samadhi tanks where you can let, you know, you can relax, and then, well, maybe I could try something different once in a while.

[46:35]

Maybe I could let go of my projection on so-and-so. And maybe so-and-so is a jerk after all. That's why a lot of people drink, you know. They take a drink and say, he's not my enemy so much. You're kind of a good guy, aren't you? Yeah. So, you know, a little loosening up sometimes helps us, like, well, maybe I could let go of that concept of who you are a little bit there. I might be okay. I might... Yeah. You know? So if you can do that, that's part of meditation, is to loosen up on your concepts. And then later, after you loosen them up, when you think you've let go of them, then we turn in the shock on again to see if when you're shocked that you'll revert. Up now, you're not going to call me a jerk anymore? Okay. No? Great. You're really released from your suffering. Because even when I start to stress you, you still don't go back to your old ways. You still keep saying, I'm not going to grasp my concept of you.

[47:37]

I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm just going to be here directly perceiving you. You can't make me go for this one. But for starters, you've got to relax. So would you all start massaging each other? No? Okay, well. Actually, I kind of want to indulge a little bit in a little melancholy tonight, because this is maybe our last meeting here in this lovely temple. We're going to take a little trip. And our next meeting will be at Kabuki Hot Springs. So everybody will, you know, I'll give you a talk while you're getting a massage. It'll be a little bit more expensive, but, you know, it'll be a lot easier to listen to me. Bookhouse Springs is full.

[48:42]

We can meet up the street at Sokoji Temple. And so... Nothing lasts, and so we're going to change. We're going to flow down Laguna to Sokoji Temple. We're going to get there. And if you do come, please bring a flower. When you come to San Francisco. Yes? What? It's on Laguna. Sutter, this is Laguna. It's on Laguna between Sutter and Bush, right? There's little flyers out there, yeah. And there is a parking lot, too. And there's also street parking, so it's parking lot here. But if you come, please bring a Zafu because they only have like 20 true Zafus there.

[49:47]

So just in case we have more than 22 people, it would be nice if you brought a sitting cushion. Huh? If you don't have one, then you don't have to bring one. But they have a few. It doesn't have to be a Zafu. But anyway, they have a case. It might be nice if you brought some. And we'll see what that's like over there in another neighborhood. Yeah. Not next to you. That's Halloween. The power of... You can try. It's on Thursday. It's on Thursday. I know what you mean. No, it's on Tuesday, November 7th. It's election night. Yeah, so you can vote. You can vote and then sit. Vote for Buddha, please. Vote for Proposition Eightfold Path. I think it's in some way that's easier than here from where you live.

[50:53]

It's one block over, a couple blocks over from Geary. So it's in Japantown, yeah. It's basically in Japantown. And sometimes the old Zen center. Anyway, it's going to be a little bit of an adventure. And let's see what happens, okay? I'm not sure what's going to happen after the end of the year. Find another place, you know, that's even more spectacular than anything we could ever imagine before. Where we have, you know, free massage and stuff like that.

[51:53]

Doesn't exist? Will somebody give her a free massage? Okay, well, have a great sewing time.

[52:21]

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