That's right, that's correct, but from yesterday when we saw that every moment we are violating this precept, this is only violation from the point of view of delusion, we're not really violating because the main violation is that we take whatever we're aware of, whatever our experience is at that moment, whatever we're aware of as an object of consciousness and we mix with it this thing called imagination. And imagination can imagine, for example, something like an independently existing thing. That's one of the things that imagination can imagine. It can imagine all kinds of fantastic things. It can imagine anything because imagination is directly connected to reality and reality is totally limitless in possibility. But among all the things you can imagine, one thing you can imagine is that something

[01:02]

exists by itself and that one, when it touches whatever you're aware of, that's the problem. And in conjunction with that wonderful thing, a sense of self arises. And then we project that imagination with the sense of self, whatever it is, we project that onto everything. So we're doing it every moment. We do that every moment, but that is simply an illusion we're doing every moment. That's not really happening, that's just a kind of sleight of hand that we do on ourself all the time. We do that all the time, so let's admit we do that, and let's admit that because we do that, that is the source of our suffering. However, at the same time that's happening, really these two things are separate. What's happening and the imagination are separate. And the separateness of them, if you can see that, you'll see that this never really did

[02:08]

have this imagined quality. Never did we really do this thing we saw. We were always actually in a state of freedom from that. They never were actually contaminating each other. So really, this precept of self and others, praising self by imagining it exists by itself, that it's the center of the universe, independent of everything else, this blurring of reality and not noticing all other beings inseparable from us, is just simply a mistake we make. It's not reality. So we do make that mistake every day, every moment, but it's not a reality. The reality is we're not making that mistake, that we're actually simultaneously free. Now, because we're built this way, it's good to admit it. And if we admit it, then we can also practice Buddhism taking into account that we're built

[03:09]

that way and not try to be a better person than that. Not try to be somebody who doesn't do this. And part of us wants to be this person who's already down below that and wants to directly embrace Dharma. Part of us wants to like, hey, let's just have direct experience here. Well, you've already got direct experience. That's not the problem. You already are being. What you have to do is you have to take the teaching that you're already that way down through the levels where you don't believe that. So you have to train yourself at the level where you don't believe it first. You have to reprogram your intellect in such a way that it understands that what it sees is not actually true, even though it does not yet believe that at a deeper level. But when you believe it at the superficial level, that's all you can do at the superficial level, then take it down one level and gurgle it around in your meditation until finally you've shaken it around enough so that actually you get down to where you can actually feel

[04:11]

it as the way you are. In other words, it's no longer a theory you can actually see. Even though you're not outside, you don't see it outside, but you actually realize you become your experience separated from the imagination of inherent existence. While that exact thing is going on, you are that way. But you have to start at the level of, if you don't retrain your belief system and your intellect, you're not going to be able to get down and realize it. Because right now it's already true down there, in the realm of direct experience this is already going on, but you can't believe it because you're believing something else at the intellectual level of your mind. That's why we have to train that level first. That's why we have these words. And so this precept again is saying that this precept is also to study beyond self and others. But again, to do that you have to get into how you make self and other. In other words, you have to hear the teaching which tells you to go look at self and others.

[05:13]

In other words, look at the sin of constantly seeing self and others and believing that they're both inherent existence, inherently existing, but first of all before other you believe self exists. But belief in self is born in conjunction with creating the image of other. It was born right there, the sense of identity happened right when we were able to make an other, something external. So they're intimately related. So admitting our sinfulness and also to listen to somebody teach and to receive teachings from outside, from other, that's also actually the same thing. And when you have problems with or you resist or get excited about getting it from the outside, you actually in that process itself at the intellectual level, you're actually experiencing in this case what the teaching is about. In this particular case, this is a teaching about subject and object and when you receive

[06:19]

it, you're actually experiencing this subject object thing or this self and other thing. It's had been going on very nicely all week long, right? People have been struggling with this very process that these precepts are pointing us back to and the more we get into it, the more I think confidence we have that we cannot avoid this process and we're coming up with a number of, you know, in some sense part of us wants to just already be where we're going, you know, which is inevitable because part of us already knows we don't, this isn't really real, we want to skip over it, but we have to dirty ourselves before we're going to get clean or we have to dirty ourselves before we realize we're already clean because we think we're dirty with this subject object stuff. Covering our sin, I can't remember what you said, I don't remember what the other person said. He said covering his sin should not cause sin.

[07:22]

Yes. Not admitting our sin, okay? I thought, well, if I was being jealous and couldn't admit that, well that's covering it, so okay, I should do that. You should what? I should admit that I'm covering it. Yeah. Yeah. But in covering, we have all these layers that are covered. Exactly. And by not admitting these layers and getting into this stuff, we can't prosper, that's why. Exactly. Just doing this stuff intellectually we can't do it. So I'm intellectually telling you about how actually we are covering this stuff, so you understand how complex the covering is. Yes, I agree. Yeah, and also this helps us understand why we aren't prospering more because we haven't yet been able to get... Someone else said to me, who was it? Oh, Pam said to me about... Oh no, not Pam. Pam, yes, but also Chris. I was talking about how long it took me to understand in marriage that the key to marriage

[08:25]

is devotion. It took me about ten years to figure that out. Hmm? For me to figure out at the intellectual level. I haven't actually got down to the being level yet. Yeah, to completely do it. But at least I got the concept and I practiced it a little and I thought about it and I practiced it a little and it works. But until we get all these teachings down or at least one of them all the way down, we won't thoroughly prosper. So we can't really judge the teaching, its effectiveness, until we take it all the way down. Part of what I'm saying now is, I think that's what you all want to do and I think you agree with that. But what I'm also saying is don't skip over this layer. Don't begrudge the layer of intellectual work that we have to do. And also intellectually being embarrassed, knowing that you have to do it, but what you're doing. Being intellectually embarrassed that you're into this sinning. And again, the pain of admitting that is one pain.

[09:27]

And then there's another pain of actually sitting with it by yourself when nobody's watching and thinking about it yourself, running it over in your own mind. Seeing how it's deeper than what they told you it was. And then finally, feeling it. Feeling, actually feeling with your actual whole being that you're doing this. But then when you're at that level, you're right down in the workshop, the devil's workshop. And you can reach over there and say, you don't even have to pull the devil's hands apart. You don't have to do a thing. The devil's hands are not actually touching anything. But you have to get down there right in the shop and see, the devil's not doing anything. My God. It was always all right. But from a distance, it looked like they were going like this. Inherent existence, imagination of independent entities mixed in with every little thing I feel. It looks like they're all tangled up, but they're not. It's like they're actually, even when they're going like this, they're actually separate. If they weren't separate, you wouldn't be able to see them touching. Only things that are separate can touch.

[10:29]

And the more you look at it, you see, actually they're perfectly, each are pure of the other. And they're empty in two different ways. It's wonderful. But you have to see it here, here, and with your being. And what we're studying here primarily in this precept and the last one and the one before is self and other. Because that's the root, the root of our delusion. Yes? When you go to a hospital and have surgery, you feel anesthesia, you feel something, a deadening pain. Yeah. There's nothing to deaden the pain. Because to do the work, you have to feel the pain. Yeah. There's nothing to deaden the pain. But the way we try to deaden it is with the anesthesia, the anesthetic of ignorance. We turn away from it. And go, oh-de-do-de-do-de-do. Give me some stuff. Detract me. I don't want to look back there. It doesn't work, but that's what we try. But then I thought there actually is, because the love and compassion of the Sangha that

[11:33]

we do this with, that is certain. That does assist this painful process that actually takes place. Yeah. That's an anesthesia. It's an anesthetic, isn't it? Yeah. It is. Analgesic. It's a refuge. It's one of the refuges. Number three. I stopped at Shasta Abbey on my way down to spend the night. Anyway. Inexpensive too? Huh? Inexpensive? No charge. That is inexpensive. Just a donation if you wish. At least for a month. Anyway. So I went to service in the morning, and her translation of the Heart Sutra is, Form is purity. Purity is form. And I heard you just interchange from there, and for me that was a nice little twist on

[12:33]

what purity might mean, and a nice little twist then on what emptiness might mean. Yeah, in the earlier precepts we were talking about how to purify. You purify body with body. Purify emptiness with emptiness. Purify color with color. Again, I just feel like that what it says here is, well maybe I can try this. Let's just try it. Okay, so in this practice this precept of not begrudging means it's pointing towards

[13:36]

total relinquishing. Okay? But it also means to study beyond self and other. Same thing. In other words, total relinquishing is a study. It's something you learn, like you learn about self and other. That's what makes it possible. It says, however, we might understand that this precept has or is about not holding on to worldly resources and materials and not holding on to Dharma. That's what you might think it's about, right? Because it says not begrudging Dharma, right? This is kind of simple, but so simple that you wonder what they're saying. All right? You hear the precept not begrudging the bestowal of Dharma, so you might think what it means is holding on to, or that you should not hold on to, Dharma and material things.

[14:40]

In other words, you should give them. That's what you might think this precept's about, right? So then, if that's what it means, then we will give these things according to what's appropriate. That follows, right? I mean, I know this is a strange way of talking, so I'm just trying to encourage you that it does make sense. He's up to something else here. Watch out. So, if it's a worldly thing, you would understand giving a worldly thing and giving a worldly thing. And if you're a teacher and you're expounding the Buddha Dharma, then you would call that the Buddha treasure, and you would think about giving that. Although you call this Dharma treasure, this thing that you're giving, if you understand it this way, this does not reach the meaning of this precept. So this precept is not about that.

[15:41]

It's not about like there's worldly treasure and Dharma treasure, and you give worldly treasure, and you give Dharma treasure, and you shouldn't hold on to worldly things. You shouldn't hold on to what it's pointing at. This is not Buddha's precept, okay? This is a Hinayana precept. This understanding we just said is what we mean by Hinayana precept. There is such a precept, but that's not a Buddhist precept, that's a Hinayana precept, or I don't know, maybe somebody else's too. And they even said that this kind of giving, where you have material or Dharma, which you give, this is Hinayana precept, and it's not really that different from begrudging giving Dharma. It's pretty much the same thing. A little bit different. Is he saying that Hinayana precepts are not Buddhist precepts? Are not Buddha precepts. I mean, Hinayana, some people who think they're Buddhists have this Hinayana understanding that not begrudging means that you don't hold on to worldly things or Dharma, and that you

[16:51]

give worldly things or you give Dharma. That's what they think this precept means. Huh? Pardon? If you think it means that, then that understanding does not approach what this precept's about. So if you have that understanding, we call that, you know, various things, you call that Hinayana. That's not what this precept's talking about. Okay? We're talking about something else. We're talking about studying beyond self and other. Do you understand now? That giving is not studying beyond self and other. That giving is studying in the realm of self and other. Right? That's what it is. Pardon? In its birth and death. Yeah. It's believing in self and other. That's what that's giving. He's not saying that's wrong. As a matter of fact, it's good. It's a lot different than like holding things and not giving them when you believe in self and other. But this precept's talking about beyond self and other. It's not talking about you giving stuff or you holding stuff.

[17:52]

It's talking about total renunciation. Basically, and basically total renunciation of the belief between self and others. That's what it's talking about. If you do that, that's what this precept's talking about. It's not talking about this other thing. And if you, as you approach this precept, a whole bunch of other stuff's going to start falling apart too. So it may seem excellent by standards of ordinary people, but when you think in terms of Mahayana, it's not adequate. It's the dharma of beasts. Dharma of beasts. Beasts. Beastial. Monsters. Brutes. He says beasts. The dharma of beasts. You know beauty and the beast? Beast. You know what a beast is? I don't know what a beast is, but anyway, the dharma of beasts. The dharma of beasts.

[18:57]

The dharma of beasts. This precept of not begrudging does not separate self and others. Okay? It does not separate self and others. And in order to not separate self and others, it is the study of self and others and the study beyond self and others. That's what this precept is about. And that's what Buddha is about. And that's what Mahayana is about. What did I say? What did I say? This precept of not begrudging does not separate self and others. It is the study of self and others. And it is the study of beyond self and others. And it is the omission of belief in self and others as part of the process of learning

[19:59]

beyond self and others and learning what non-discrimination of self and others is. That is Buddha's precept. That is Mahayana's precept. So, because of this precept, it is explained as not being the dharma of form, of mind, of having, of not having, of cause and effect, or of not cause and effect. Although we give without holding on to created treasures of the three worlds, worldly things that is, it is not worth mentioning. It's so insignificant. I mean, if you do it, I rejoice in it. If I see you giving a penny to somebody with a joyous heart, I rejoice in it. But myself, if I give this way, it's not worth mentioning. What's worth mentioning is to admit that I'm involved in dualistic thinking.

[21:02]

To admit that I believe in self and others, that's worth mentioning. That's a big deal. Because that's approaching the Buddha dharma. This other thing can be a real dead end. It creates positive energy, but if you don't use it for this other purpose, namely to study beyond self and others, it's not really, you don't need to mention it. It's not bad, it's good, but don't mention it. Thank you. Can that which teaches, can that which a teacher teaches a disciple as dharma treasure be regarded as giving? When a teacher teaches thinking or saying, this is dharma treasure, can this be regarded as giving? In the Buddha dharma, study in terms of teacher and disciple, subject and object, here and there, don't happen. In Buddha dharma, we don't study in these terms. So the answer to those two previous questions was no. Even though by ordinary standards, it's really nice for teachers to teach people dharma

[22:07]

and give people presents, it's really nice, but don't mention it to yourself anyway. It's not Buddha dharma to do this kind of thing, because Buddha dharma doesn't even happen in that realm. And again, this brings up no clinging, relinquishment of practicing in that realm and entering the realm where we're not even considering this kind of interchange, except to admit that we do, as a sin. And now that we're doing it, but basically we believe in the root of the whole operation, this is our basic sin, we admit that, that's part of the study. That's practicing this precept. This precept's a lot harder than giving people stuff while believing that there's somebody out there and you're the giver. This precept means, look at your root delusions. Maybe while you're giving things. That's what the stories are about, I think. When we say, you have attained my skin, flesh, bones and marrow,

[23:09]

and when we explain, you are also thus, it is the principle practice of Buddha dharma not to hold on to anything at all. So, when we say, you have attained my skin, flesh, bones and marrow, that means when Bodhidharma said to his disciple Huika, you have attained my skin, flesh, bones and marrow. And when the sixth pioneer said to the seventh, after the seventh entered, he said, I am thus, you are thus too. But when they said that, they were not holding on to anything at all and they were not the teacher teaching. They did not give that to somebody. They were beyond, the student and the teacher were both beyond self and other at that time. That's why they wrote the story down. But it sounds like somebody gave somebody something. Saying, they were not clinging to anything like this.

[24:09]

They totally relinquished in this process. When the earth and all sentient beings attain the way at the same time, who gives enlightenment to whom? Do the sentient beings give it to the earth? Does the earth give it to the sentient beings? Does the Buddha give it to the sentient beings? Or do the sentient beings give it to the Buddha? When this happens, there is total renunciation, total relinquishment. At this time, this is what we mean by not begrudging Dharma. And also we mean by, there has not been any begrudging at that time. One Dharma and one realization are all Buddhas and all pioneers. By expressing this point, not begrudging, becomes a Buddhist precept. By saying what they just said, this precept of not begrudging becomes a Buddhist precept, becomes a Buddha precept, rather than a precept of birth and death, high quality birth and death, meritorious birth and death.

[25:13]

But we're talking now about the actual path to Buddhahood is initiated by understanding this precept this way. And then he says, this is one more thing, there is originally not one thing that is worldly treasure. If you give material things with this idea of you're giving it, it is nice. But if you give by this precept, there's no such thing as a worldly treasure anymore. Because you're giving, this is Dharma now. And not only that, but Buddha Dharma. So nothing actually can be a worldly treasure when you practice according to this precept, because everything you give, every material thing, every material resource you give with this attitude is now Buddha Dharma being studied, is now the study beyond self and others. So it's no longer a worldly thing. Therefore, this giving transforms all material things into Dharma.

[26:16]

Okay, so, originally we talked about giving things, material things, and teaching. But if you give them like I give them to you, this is not what's meant by this precept. In this precept, what it means to give, or what it means to not hold on to, it means to not think in terms of me giving to you. That's what this precept means. Or, first of all, to think, I do think I'm me and separate from you, and I admit that, and I study that, and I go beyond that, and then I give you something. That's not begrudging Dharma. And I give you Dharma. But when I practice that way with you, and you practice that way with me, then even if I give you a worldly thing, a material thing, like a glass of water, it's not a material thing anymore. Because basically what I'm giving you is my practice of watching the emptiness of our separation. The main thing I'm giving you is that I'm catching myself and believing in our separation,

[27:23]

and I'm penetrating that. That's what I'm giving you. And then if I pass you something like this, I'm giving Dharma. And you're getting Dharma, and you're getting Dharma. Yeah. So it seems, I mean, so this is the second time you've explained it to her. As you approach a particular point of explanation, we lose the kind of language we have to talk about it. No longer is adequate. And so when I watch, it's as though you're going towards it. You talk about the idea of a self and other and all the rest, but as we move towards a greater understanding, as we investigate the self and other, this movement starts to shift, because we know the language no longer expedites the movement, and there's something else there. But it's not... I'm lost in the sense that I don't have any way to talk about it. So when I start to talk about it and say it bifurcates, it changes, and you start to see that there really isn't a self and other,

[28:25]

that there isn't any giving, there isn't any receiving. So the teacher and the student stand and look at each other and say, I receive, or I give, or thank you, or something. That's all sort of extra, and yet... It's not quite extra, right, because the language isn't... It's what they're talking about, but they could also be saying something else besides thank you and I give. Yes, right. But they might say, I give you, or you are thus. Well, actually, you are thus doesn't sound like a gift exactly, but it could be understood that way. But what they're saying in these cases, even if they say, I give this to you, or you are now my disciple, this is not teacher giving it to disciple, because the teacher doesn't think that way. Right, there's nothing thought going on. Right, and the teacher doesn't think that way, or rather the teacher thinks that way, actually, the teacher does think that way, excuse me, the teacher does think that way, but the teacher observes that that thinking, that way, is illusory. And because it's illusory, the teacher doesn't mind thinking that way,

[29:25]

and can even talk about that, and talk like that were so. And when the teacher who does that kind of thinking is liberated from that kind of thinking, and sees a disciple, who he sees as a separate being, and he sees the emptiness of that, but the reason why he sees a disciple is because he sees someone who also understands the same thing, and is behaving that way, and talking like that way, but not separate, then that's the disciple. But it's not the teacher giving it to the disciple, it's the disciple giving it to the teacher equally. But the teacher may still say, I now give you. Thank you. And what you just did is you said, I lose track when I can't participate in the language anymore. No. I was a little excited in trying to explain how I was understanding it, but I didn't know how to go any further than a certain point, because my language stopped at that point. But you talked after that.

[30:27]

Yes, I did. After that point where his language was not somehow working for him, and he got frustrated, he talked, you see. He brought his confusion and expressed it verbally, but that allowed me to interact with you, and you could move forward. But what we lots of times do, when we get to that frustration point, is we shut up, and then we feel lousy. But if you would then bring your confusion, and we start interacting, the confusion will evaporate, and we'll move forward to the next confusion. And the next one, and the next one. We're working with confusion. We have nothing else to work with. Ah, yes. Exactly. This is the perfection of giving we're talking about here. That's what this precept is. You don't give without the thought of a gift. You don't give without the thought. Right, that's what I'm realizing. You give with the thought. Yes.

[31:28]

You give totally, admitting it. Yes. Exactly. The thought that it's going on. Right. And then when you see that this is not really so, you can stop talking like that, but still keep giving, and keep receiving. And the fact that you are giving and receiving simultaneously all the time is what helps you realize that that way of talking is not appropriate. So it says in the Sutra, it is not the perfection of giving to say, I give, and this is the gift, and you are the receiver. That's not the perfection of giving. But in order to arrive at the perfection of giving, we must admit that we do think that way first, and by thinking that way first, when you say, I'm giving, then you can also see, I'm receiving. And since I'm giving and receiving, I'm not really giving, and I'm not really receiving, because I'm giving. And you get so confused that you realize that this whole thing is just the results of confusion. And you keep giving,

[32:28]

and you can even say you're giving, but realize that you're only doing it as an act of publicly sinning to demonstrate that you can still do it and admit it while you're doing it. Yeah. So this precept is the precept of the giving gone beyond giving. This is the perfection of giving, this precept. And this precept, in particular, again, even though it's number eight, is very much an entry precept. It's a precept of how you enter, because you enter the Bodhisattva way through giving, through relinquishing, through being radically stupid. Yes? Well, I was just thinking... What I was thinking, talking about, that I would be able to do when you said that, is that there's not really that tradition, as a way of using language, that dynamics in the story, but really not this way, but a language that's still established. And in this special kind of book, there's a lot of things...

[33:29]

There's so much good stuff here. It would be so much fun to go into it. But we're not going to be able to do it, so I give up. And I just want to say, I think one of the main things is... One of the main things is... One of the main things is, get in there and jump rope. You know? Bring your confusion, bring your clumsy feet, and jump into it. That's also not begrudging Dharma. That's practicing the precepts. Go in there with a big heart, wholesome heart of Mahayana, and just participate and say, Hey, I'm getting lost. People did that today. That was great. And it worked, didn't it? Sort of? When you get out there? A little embarrassing maybe, huh? Yeah. You can stay in there. You can say, Hey, I'm getting lost. I'm slipping, you know. That's great. And everybody else can learn from that too. You're not holding us back. You're moving us forward by bringing your thing.

[34:34]

Yes? Generally, in the past, I mostly thought of giving. I mean, not just in the recent past, but in the past. Giving as... financial giving. People talk about giving things. Yes, yes. But, when you're giving, you would give up our ego. If you do that, then all giving begins. Or at least recognizing that there's problems going on with the ego. Then your giving becomes Buddha giving. That's the way Buddha gives. However, giving in a dualistic sense generates lots of positive energy and because you've been giving in a dualistic sense for a long time, you've accumulated so much merit that now you can do Buddha giving. If you don't, if you won't give worldly things, even be generous with making donations to your favorite charities and giving presents to your friends, if you don't do that, you're not going to build enough merit

[35:36]

even to do this wonderful practice of Buddha giving, which is not giving to somebody else anymore. And partly because you're going to be too guilty not to give to other people until you give to them for quite a while. So it'll help you renounce the idea of giving to others if you give to others for quite a while. And so, if we do that, that helps us finally switch over to not giving to others, but just giving. And not give to self either. Give to the realm beyond self and others. And that means study the realm of self and others until you see the realm beyond self and others. And what you do there is called giving. What you do there will be giving. That's the first thing you'll do. Next thing you'll do is study the precepts. So we're seeing that this precept, this eighth precept, is the first paramita and also is the entry

[36:39]

into all these stories. Right? Don't we see that? Sort of? So we did it. We did the precept. No. There's one more day. Yeah, we did another precept. I didn't think we were going to be able to do it, but we did, sort of, didn't we? I mean, it's endless study, but we kind of did it. So we have, tomorrow we'll do, if we're all come, we'll have, we'll do the 45th ancestor, complete our ancestor tour, and we'll do the ninth precept. And we have one precept left over, which we'll do some other day. What's that? We'll do it at the shoe-sell ceremony. Right. So, thank you very much. Thank you.

[37:53]

Thank you.

[37:55]

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