This morning I felt and still feel what I often feel at the beginning of an event like we're having this week, which we call Sashin, that it's really wonderful that the causes and conditions of the world allow people to sit and walk and stand and don't ask anything of them except that they settle where they are and see where they

[01:00]

are. Or settle how they are and see how they are. Perhaps you could see this time that way, that this is a time, or this is an opportunity to settle how you are and see how you are. It's even possible that our precious Abbess, with all her responsibilities, is able to

[02:08]

come and sit with us and settle with us. And I'd also like to acknowledge that our Tanto is having surgery, so would not be able to sit this week. And we invited Rev. Miao Leahy from Hartford Street Zen Center to come and be Tanto for this week. So I'm grateful that that was possible too. And that all of you could come and practice this week here. I'm grateful for. And it may be helpful to again bring up the word Sashin that we often use to describe

[03:28]

or entitle such practice events that we're having like this. And Sashin is made of two Chinese characters. The first one is pronounced Sho or Setsu. And the second one is pronounced Shin. Setsu or Sho means to embrace and sustain or and to be embraced and sustained. It means to gather and to be gathered. It means to collect and to be collected. Shin means mind or heart. So Sashin is sometimes translated into English as collecting the mind, gathering

[04:30]

the mind, embracing and sustaining the mind, embracing and sustaining the heart. But it's difficult to translate it both ways, but please understand that it also could be translated as being embraced and sustained by the heart, being collected by the mind, being gathered by the mind and heart. So, the Sashin is set up to help us realize something, to realize the collecting of our heart and being collected by our heart.

[05:36]

My understanding is that the basic intention or the basic motive of the Sashin set up, the basic motive of the ancestors in having this set up is to realize the way. The Sashin is set up to promote and support the realization of the way. To realize the way that we are embracing and sustaining all beings. To realize the way that all beings are embracing

[06:55]

and sustaining us to live our life, moment by moment. Again, my understanding is that the purpose, the motive, the intention of setting up this practice form is to help realize the way we are reciprocally living together and supporting each other. Not just us in Sashin, but all beings. But we start, of course, with what's right in front of us. To realize how people in this room are supporting you. This is a set up so you can realize that everybody in this room is supporting you. This is a set up so you may realize, together with everyone else, that you are supporting everyone in this room.

[08:05]

A set up for us to realize the basic teaching, the basic Dharma teaching of interdependence of all things. It's a set up for us to realize our non-duality. That's my understanding of the reason for the ancestors setting up this form. You may have other motivations in practice for this week, which are completely welcome. And whatever your motivations, moment by moment, each of those motivations will embrace and sustain all beings. And whatever motivations arise in our hearts, moment by moment, whatever motivations arise in our heart, wanting to have lunch, wanting to sit, wanting to go to the toilet, wanting to breathe, whatever the motivation is, it is supported by all beings and supports all beings.

[09:21]

I say that to you. And I hear myself say it. The basic motivation of the ancestors is for all beings to realize non-duality, which is the same as saying the motivation is for all beings to realize peace and harmony among all beings. The form, or the practice, in some ways, for realizing non-duality is dualism. We use dualism to realize non-duality.

[10:27]

So we realize non-duality between beings, and we realize non-duality by an intra-psychic method and an inter-personal method. We use that duality. The thought occurred in my mind, this session is an opportunity for us to examine our life. The session is an opportunity to ponder our life together. I thought of that statement that's attributed to Socrates, that the only life worth living is an examined life, a pondered life. And by pondering life we may realize non-duality. But the way of pondering is in dualistic terms.

[11:37]

Ponder it inwardly. Ponder life in terms of your own psychic experience, your own psychophysical experience. That's one way to examine life. And that's actually usually the first way, is examine your life, your intra-psychic, intra-physical life, intra-psychic, psychophysical life. And the other way to examine it is examine it interpersonally. So those two ways provide a method for realizing non-duality. And we offer that, this is available during session, moment by moment, you can ponder and examine, you can settle with your intra-psychic experience and see it. And then you can ponder and examine your inter-personal experience and settle with it and see it.

[12:44]

Right now, you can do this, I can do this. I mean, right now this can happen. I say, you can do this, I can do this, I take that back. Although I can talk that way, I took it back. Although I took it back, I didn't take it back by myself. I was supported by you to speak in some sense that dualistic way of I can do something. I can say that I can do something and I can say I can't do something, but I can also say that I can't do anything by myself and you can't do anything by yourself. Those words can come even though I didn't say them by my own power. Examining such statements intra-psychically and inter-personally is called wisdom work by me. Please forgive and accept that outburst which was supported by all beings.

[14:10]

Another duality or dualism that can be used to realize non-duality is the splitting, the interdependent event called mind or the interdependent event called meditation into two parts. One part called settling, the other part called seeing. One part called calming down, the other part called penetrating wisdom. These are not separate, these are not dual, these are not separate. They are not really dual, but we use this duality of tranquility and insight to realize the non-duality of tranquility and insight and the non-duality of all dimensions of life. During this retreat, when I'm talking and when you're talking with me,

[15:42]

a good deal of that talk will be about insight or wisdom, but there also may be some talk about tranquility and concentration, and there may also be some talk about how the two are combined, and the talk about how the two are combined is wisdom talk. So this morning, for example, we chanted what's called the Fukan Zazengi, and this presents the sitting practice of the Buddhas, and it presents it in a formal and ceremonial way. And it gives instructions for calming down. It gives instructions for settling where you are.

[16:46]

And it also gives instructions for seeing where you are. So in that text, you may have noticed there was instruction for tranquility, and there was instruction for insight. There was instruction for non-discursive practice. There was instruction for giving up discursive thought. Did you see it? I know it was kind of early this morning, but there it was. Some of you actually said it. Most of you probably said it. Cease all movements of the conscious mind. Remember that part? Was that there? Something like that? The engaging in thoughts and views. There was instruction for non-discursive, non-conceptual meditation. There was instruction for settling down.

[17:52]

And then it said, once you settle into a steady, immovable sitting position, once you're sitting in non-discursive, tranquil silence and stillness, then it says, think. So after you're calm, the instruction was, now start thinking. Now move into a discursive, conceptual meditation. Now ponder. Now examine thinking. So in that text we recited this morning, I see a recommendation for these two dimensions of meditation, to realize the non-duality of the two dimensions of meditation. Maybe it would be good to recite it again, so people can look again at this text. The text does not warn you,

[19:06]

Dogen Zenji does not say, okay, I'm now going to teach you tranquility and insight, but in fact, I think, without specifically, literally identifying, he's teaching both tranquility and insight in this text, and he's teaching it in the form of a ceremony. He's showing you a formal, ceremonial way to calm down and to sit. To sit still, to be with your body and breath in a certain mudra, to help you settle down. And then he gives you a specific, formal insight instruction. He says, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This is his ceremony for, this is the form he's suggesting in that text for developing insight.

[20:09]

Once again, this basic text, which is chanted in Soto Zen monasteries in Japan, is chanted usually every night, slowly, in Japanese. We will probably chant other texts by ancestors of our tradition. One's called the Self-Receiving and Employing Samadhi. That's one of the chants. And that chant is primarily, almost 100%, except for, almost 100%, that text is an insight text. It's teaching us how to see, it's giving us a vision of the world.

[21:22]

Then we also have the Precious Mirror Samadhi. Again, this text is a wisdom text, giving us a vision. And we also have the Emerging of Difference and Unity. Again, a vision text, an insight text, a wisdom text. Those texts do not have instructions for, do not have encouragements for, give up discursive thought. These texts are intended for those who have given up discursive thought and are calm. The texts themselves leave that work to you, leave that play to you. So, now at the beginning of this retreat, I almost suggest to you, I won't go quite that far yet, but I almost suggest to you, or maybe I'll just say, I won't suggest to you,

[22:28]

that's more traditional Zen way to say, I do not suggest to you to practice tranquility. And if you're my grandson, I would say, do not practice tranquility. You're too little to practice tranquility. You're not big enough yet to practice tranquility. You wouldn't be able to give up discursive thought, even if you tried. You can't do it. You can't give up discursive thought like all the ancestors did, so don't. I won't talk that way though. I won't say that. But I raise anyway the issue that there is a practice of giving up discursive thought, of giving up conceptual activity, of sitting intra-psychically with what's happening, and just give up discursive activity, give up thinking. And kind of, you know, give it up until you really feel deeply tranquil.

[23:29]

There is that opportunity during this time. It's a wonderful practice. And even before, during and after realizing tranquility, there probably will be discussions during this retreat which offer you opportunities to calmly use your discursive thought to ponder the teachings that will be chanted and discussed. To ponder the teachings of, for example, the self-receiving and employing samadhi.

[24:51]

To ponder the teaching that the sitting meditation of the Buddha is to awaken to the interdependence of all beings. To hear the teaching that the true path of enlightenment is to sit upright and practice in the midst of the self-fulfilling awareness. The true path of enlightenment is to sit upright in the awareness of how you are supported by all beings and how you support all beings. This is proposed to you as the true path of enlightenment. And if you are very calm and tranquil, as a result of training your mind and giving up discursive thought, that teaching has a chance to sink in. And as it sinks in, there is a chance to awaken to its reality.

[25:59]

Once calm, you can intra-psychically ponder this teaching of interdependence and you can interpersonally ponder this teaching of interdependence. The true path of enlightenment is to sit upright, practicing in the midst of the awareness of interdependence. I set some things out. I set some things out for you. It's possible that that was all very clear or it's possible that it wasn't clear. If you have any questions about what I said so far or say in the future,

[27:13]

I'm available to clarify these things with you in this group setting or in private interviews. Other practitioners of the Way may also be available. Is that correct? That some other people are available to discuss with you in private? Some other people offered the opportunity to you? So you can also go and discuss the teaching of interdependence with other practitioners of the Buddha Way. In this way we have a chance to clarify the inconceivable Buddhadharma. Together and also intra-psychically within your own body and mind and between your person and other persons we can clarify this teaching, this practice.

[28:15]

But I want to take another step now and that is before you heard me say these things, did you make a commitment, a practice commitment for this session? And if you did, do you remember what it was? And now that I said these things, do you feel ready? Please consider, please look and see if you feel ready to make a commitment for this week. I definitely do not want to push you to make a commitment to practice some way during this week because I want it to be very clear that the commitment that you want is the commitment that you want,

[29:31]

not the commitment that somebody else is telling you to enter into. But I ask you to look and see if there is a commitment that you hope will happen now at the beginning or at some point during this week. A commitment to a way of practice to realize something that's very important to you. So, in the Sesshin Admonitions, I think it says something like, Sesshin is a time or an opportunity to discover and clarify and renew and realize our ultimate concern. Is that what it says? So, I suggest the ultimate concern of the ancestors,

[30:33]

what the ancestors are ultimately concerned about, is realizing the way we're all working together in peace and harmony. Do you have an ultimate concern? Have you discovered it? Have you discovered what your ultimate concern is? Perhaps it's like the ancestors, perhaps it's not. But whatever it is, I think that's our starting point, our ultimate concern, what's most important to us in life. And if you've discovered that ultimate concern, is it clear? And if it's clear, are you ready to commit to it? I want all beings to realize the way.

[31:38]

I might be able to say that. That, I've discovered, is my ultimate concern. It's quite clear. And perhaps I wish now to commit to the process of all beings realizing the way. And as part of that commitment, I also wish to commit to a practice to realize that way. A practice of practicing together, a practice of practicing settling, and a practice of examining this interdependence, this way of interdependence. But I really want to not push myself or anybody else into this commitment.

[32:48]

And of course I do not want to commit before I see what it is clearly that I wish to commit to. But there is a possibility to commit to realizing the way of peace and harmony, the way of interdependence, to have that be your ultimate concern and to commit to it, and to commit to a meditation practice which will help realize this way. And I've heard, and you've heard, that there's a tradition of calming down with this commitment, with this concern, and then examining the teachings of the way that we're interrelated. And my trustee attendant,

[34:03]

all compounded things are not worthy of trust, but still I call him my trustee attendant, and I call his wife my trustee attendant. They're not trustworthy, but they're trusty. My trustee attendant reminded me of two things, but does he know what they are? No. Two things are, one thing is, in these discussions, sometimes they go on and on, and so don't feel trapped in the room. If you need to leave for some reason, don't feel that you have to stay for the whole event if it goes on a long time. If you need to leave for some reason, please, you may leave. Usually we don't leave during Zazen periods, but they're usually only a maximum of 40 minutes. Unless the person who's ringing the bell forgets to look at the clock or falls asleep, then they sometimes go on for several hours.

[35:07]

But still, these talks can go on, and if you need to leave, you can leave. Or not even if you need to, just if you want to, you can go. And the other thing is that during sitting sometimes, I go around when I'm leading the retreat or the practice period, I walk around the room and I check people's posture, I check them. I don't correct posture, I check posture. The way I check is I put my hand on the person's back usually, and then I sometimes make a suggestion, not a correction, just a suggestion. And so I will probably do that during this session. If you do not wish me to check your posture or make suggestions to your posture, you can just tell your local Zendo official, you know, like one of these trustee attendants or the Ina or somebody,

[36:12]

tell them that you don't want me to, and I won't check your posture, I won't suggest anything to your posture. I'll wait a little while to hear if there's anybody who doesn't want that, and then I won't touch you. Otherwise, I might touch you. Respectfully making a suggestion to you about how to sit upright. Sometimes all I'll do is touch you, the suggestion is just that I touched you, that's all. Sometimes I may move you a little bit. So those were two interpersonal things, two interpersonal points for practice. And I have this thing come to my mind which is a little bit delicate,

[37:25]

delicate to mention, it's about touching. I just got back from, on Saturday evening, I got back from England, Great Britain, and I was in a retreat there, and during the retreat a man said that he read this book, this biography of the founder of Zen Center, Suzuki Roshi, and he heard in that biography that Suzuki Roshi used to go around the meditation hall and touch people, touch their back, adjust their posture. He sometimes would carry a stick and use his stick to do it. And that person said,

[38:29]

that because I was a student of Suzuki Roshi, and he wanted me to be able to do that. And I guess this has occurred to me before, but particularly it occurs to me when I go far away from California and meet people around the world who have in some way heard about Suzuki Roshi or seen pictures of Suzuki Roshi, or I guess they could even see movies of Suzuki Roshi, heard about his teaching, and that the experience has really inspired them to practice the Buddha way. Even though they never met him and started practicing decades after he died, they still feel inspired by him, and of course they may also feel inspired by other teachers.

[39:33]

But sometimes a teacher who is closer in time to your existence can inspire you in a way that the great Buddhas of past eons cannot. Even though they are supremely wonderful teachers, their distance sometimes is a factor. So this person in a way somehow felt inspired deeply by Suzuki Roshi. And for him to meet a person who had met Suzuki Roshi, who had seen him and had him see him, and to be touched by someone who touched Suzuki Roshi, to have a postural adjustment from somebody who had a postural adjustment, he felt was very encouraging. He wanted that. And I say it's delicate to mention this,

[40:35]

but in fact there is this side of things that when somebody's warm hand, the warm hand of Suzuki Roshi, touches the hand of a young American man, that young American man feels that hand and feels that warmth, and feels that gift. And sometimes he remembers to pass that on from warm hand to warm hand, from warm hand to cold hand, perhaps. When he touched my hand one time after I had known him for a couple of years, and I felt he was not exactly aloof from me, but he wasn't really, he wasn't like warm, he was never, well up to that point he was never warm and chummy with me.

[41:39]

I knew he knew who I was because he would sometimes beckon me to come and give me assignments to do things in the Zendo. And he gave me certain positions of responsibility, but he was quite formal with me. Not cold, but I wouldn't even say exactly warm. And I didn't mind because I heard some stories from some other people about him being kind of formal with them too, and they were very close to him. And he very much appreciated them, I knew. So I didn't feel like that was really a problem. I sometimes saw him, I often mention, on Sunday when the Japanese congregation would come to Zen Center, before we moved, we used to be in Japantown, the Japanese congregation would come on Sunday, and I would see him talking to the elderly ladies, and he was very chummy with them.

[42:43]

Not back-slapping chummy, but very warm and cheerful and laughing and kind of jabbering away, both directions. And when I saw that I thought, a little tiny bit of, well he doesn't do that with me, but also feeling like, it's okay, we have a different relationship. And then in 1970, again I had been around Zen Center for two or three years, and I was going to go to my second practice period at Tassajara, and we met at the stairs at Zen Center, which are the stairs right in front of what is now the Kaisando, and he said that he wanted, he gave me some assignment at the practice period at Tassajara that I was going to,

[43:49]

and he reached out and he touched my hand, he actually shook my hand, and it was the first time he shook my hand, before that I had only bowed to him, and he had only bowed to me, but he shook my hand. And it wasn't exactly that his hand was hot, it wasn't the hottest hand I ever felt, but I thought it was the warmest hand I ever felt. It wasn't exactly that my hand was cold, but in a way his hand was warmer. And I felt, when I felt that warmth, I felt that it, I felt like it was always there, that warmth, I just never felt it before, consciously. That he was, that he was very warm towards me, and I had no doubt that he was warm towards the other students. So I feel blessed by that warmth,

[44:54]

and I feel blessed by the practice that goes with that warmth. The warmth is the practice, but also the warmth is the breath, or the encouragement to do this form. This sitting together, this giving up discursive thought, this using discursive thought, this giving up discursive thought to realize tranquility, this using discursive thought to realize wisdom. And then again, this giving up discursive thought to deepen the wisdom once it's been realized. Thank you. Is there anything you'd like to express at this time?

[45:58]

Yes versus no. How come that was delicate? I missed the delicacy of it. The delicacy? Did anybody else miss the delicacy? You missed it? Did anybody see the delicacy? Nobody saw the delicacy? Was I indelicate? I know I'm not very delicate. So nobody saw the delicacy? You did see the delicacy? Right. What else? Isn't the other part of the delicacy that some people may not want? Yeah, another part of the delicacy is some people may not want it, right. But some people may feel like, what's he bringing that up about? You know what I mean? Like, isn't he getting a little ... Chummy? Isn't he bringing up something a little too intimate?

[47:04]

And also, some people might feel like, another part of the delicacy is, oh good, he's bringing up the intimacy part. I was waiting for that. Oh, yummy, yum, mmm. That's another part of the delicacy. What other delicacy? Yes? I think there's some delicacy in the trust that what was handed to you from Suzuki Hiroshi could be handed on. She said some delicacy in the trust that what was given to me could be handed on? Parentheses or brackets? Suzuki Hiroshi and me, sitting in the same ballpark, do not encourage you to trust that. He does not encourage you to ... maybe he would now that he's gone, but we don't really encourage you to trust that the warmth he gave me, I can give to you. Like, that's part of the delicacy. For me, the most delicate part is for me to imply that I've got the warmth

[48:09]

and I'm going to bring the warmth and put it on your back. That it's personal. Somehow the gift is not really his and it's not mine and it's not yours and yet there is this gift, this warmth among us. We are living together. So it's not so much that to trust that it was passed to me and that I can pass it, but it's more like people want this and we can play a role in this. But we have to be very careful that we don't take personal credit for the role of transmitting this warmth. Like, I got the warmth, you want some warmth? Here, here's some warmth. That could be impure. That could be grasping something that's really about our ungraspable relationship. Our ungraspable relationship is really nice and warm

[49:11]

and that's really how we live together and support each other. That's that warmth. But when you feel it somehow, when you get a hint of it, somehow, it's very delicate. And then when somebody reminds me of this, I feel like it's a wonderful thing to be part of conveying and it's also a dangerous thing to think that I own. So it makes me feel like, ooh, this is a big, dangerous responsibility to travel around the world and have people think, oh, there's a disciple of Suzuki Roshi. You know, like, yay, that's great. How not to me take, how the delicacy of me not taking that personally. And yet, if I can be responsible and careful, I can go there and people can feel, oh, we had a touch of the tradition here because that person came from

[50:12]

California where Suzuki Roshi was and where he practiced with Suzuki Roshi and where actually can physically touch in that way Suzuki Roshi and Dogen and Shakyamuni Buddha. This is, this physical, this is, he touched my hand and it was a big deal. And before he touched my hand, he touched my eyes and he touched my ears. And so I, if he hadn't touched my hand, I'd already seen him, that was good, and I heard him, that was good. Actually, I think he'd already also given me some taps on the shoulder with the stick. I didn't feel so warm. It was, I know this is warm, but

[51:14]

it was different, the hand was different. Yes? People want, they want it, yeah. And if we can't, you know, like Shakyamuni Buddha is, he lived a certain period of time and then he went away, so it's hard to meet somebody who actually was there during his life now. But, and pretty soon we won't be able to meet anybody that was actually there during Suzuki Roshi's life. But those who were there, if they go places where people who, people far away have never seen somebody, then that encourages people. So then we,

[52:17]

we have to be careful of that. But it's also a wonderful opportunity, interpersonal opportunity. So it's also delicate, you know, about how much further to get into this whole thing. I don't want to make too big deal out of this warm hand to warm hand thing. And yet, I don't want to make too little of it either. Yes, Miriam? You missed a transition from what to what? I couldn't really hear the thing just before. The warmth? Oh,

[53:26]

I don't exactly remember, but one connection between the warmth and the tranquility and insight is tranquility and insight are meditation practices for us to realize, non-dualistically, to realize the warmth of the way. The Buddha way is basically the warmth of our interrelationship. The Buddha way is the way we are actually all warm towards everybody else. You are all warmly in the sense of supportively and kindly supporting all beings. That's warm, okay? Miriam? And all beings are warmly supporting you. So it's a warm thing in a sense. It's a living thing. It's living things support living things and even non-living things who, you know, don't go around 98.6 unless it's 98.6 outside,

[54:27]

like mountains and rivers are not necessarily warm to the touch, but mountains and rivers also support us. They warmly support us. The earth gives us life. The earth supports us and supports us to make commitments to the way the earth supports us. Or rather, the earth supports us to make commitments which will help us realize how the earth supports us. And that's the way we support the earth and the way the earth supports us we could call warm. The tranquillian insights are meditations that help us realize this warmth by which all beings are imperceptibly, mutually assisting each other. Does that make sense? Yes. What's your name? Martin?

[55:29]

Would the word meeting or being met be a corollary to warmth? Yes. Meeting or being met is a corollary. Yes. It's not exactly a corollary. It's the same thing. Meeting. We meet each other and we are met. And that's the interpsychic dimension of realizing the way which we support each other. So we meet each other and we meet each other in a reciprocally supportive way. Yes. The vocabulary of warmth or meeting seems to be similar to the vocabulary of wisdom and tranquillian insight. Did you say the vocabulary of warmth?

[56:36]

The suggestion of tranquillian insight, did you say? Is similar to what? Warmth and meeting. Warmth and meeting? Did you say? Are you putting warmth with one and meeting with the other one? The warmth is with the tranquillity? And the meeting is with the insight? Okay. And the insight might help be a way for you to see the warmth. Tracy? I talked this morning about the great concern. Ultimate? Ultimate concern. Final concern? At the end, your concern?

[57:43]

My question is, is the Buddha way the same as the Buddhist thought perhaps? Is the Buddha way the same as the Bodhisattva vow? Well, the Bodhisattva vow can't be separated from the Buddha way. I mean, the Buddha way cannot be separated from the Bodhisattva vow. But someone could feel the Bodhisattva vow arising in them, and yet not fully realize understand the Buddha way. So the Buddha way, in some sense, is the full living of the Bodhisattva vow. So we can have a vow arising and yet somehow feel like because of our ancient karma

[58:46]

there is some obstruction to this vow. We feel it and yet we don't fully feel it. But if you say the full living of the Bodhisattva vow is the Buddha way, but the vow can arise and still be somewhat unrealized. But no one can realize the Buddha way without the Bodhisattva vow. But the Bodhisattva vow can arise and is the seed and energy driving of the Buddha way. But the Buddha way is the full unobstructed living of the vow together with everybody else. So a vow can arise prior to perfect wisdom about what the vow is. The Buddha way will be the wise understanding of how that vow is really what's happening. We do actually wish,

[59:46]

actually, our life is the wish to benefit all beings. Our life is actually, our life is actually our gratitude for how everyone is supporting us. That's our actual life. But we sometimes magically don't get that. Somehow we don't get sometimes our life is gratitude for how everyone is supporting us and our life is nothing but supporting all beings. We sometimes don't get that. But we want to get that and wanting to understand that that's the Bodhisattva vow. If you don't want to realize the way, somehow it kind of hinders realizing the way. Even though, not really, because nothing can actually hinder the way. Nothing can hinder the way everybody is supporting you and you're supporting everybody. But our understanding

[60:50]

seems like it can hinder the way because whenever I bring this up, whenever I talk about how everybody is supporting me and how I'm supporting everybody, people honestly say, that's not my experience. I don't see it that way. I don't see that I'm helping everybody. I don't even want to help everybody. And I don't think everybody is supporting me. That's not my experience. I really appreciate you saying that because you're probably speaking for somebody else in the room, too. And so now we know that for some of us, it is not our experience. Our reality is not the reality of supporting all beings and being supported by all beings. That's not our experience. Okay? So we're saying, my experience is different from what I'm hearing from this tradition. But here's another thing from the tradition. Those who have realized

[61:53]

the tradition, before they realized the tradition, were just like you people who do not experience the tradition. They were just like that. They also said, this is not my experience. I do not have that experience. They confess that. They had that experience and they confessed it. So when you say, I have doubt, you're just like the Buddha before the Buddha was Buddha. Buddha was just like that. Buddha had doubts. Buddha doubted that all beings were supporting each other and being supported by each other. So that's the thing we chanted at the beginning. By revealing and disclosing our lack in faith, by revealing and disclosing our lack of faith in this teaching, which is conditioned by not having experience of this. By revealing and disclosing this

[62:55]

before the Buddhas, we melt away the root of this transgression from interdependence. We are interdependent but it's not our experience. So in that sense, we transgress from interdependence. By revealing and disclosing our lack of faith in interdependence and our lack of practice of interdependence before the Buddhas, we melt away the root of that lack of faith and that lack of practice. Not by our own power, not by Buddha's power, but by the power of the confession to the Buddhas. The power of the confession and repentance melts away the root of us feeling that our experience is not the experience of everybody supporting us and us supporting everyone. So there's commitment and then once you make a commitment, once you make a commitment

[63:58]

to realize an experience of interdependence, then you get to notice that it's not your experience. What you committed to realize is not your experience. So then you confess that and the more you confess that, the more what you're confessing melts away. Again, I'm not suggesting you make commitments, but if you make commitments, if you don't make commitments, generally, I mean, if you commit to something and then you don't do it, it's not such a big problem. If you don't commit to giving up discursive thought, training your mind to give up discursive thought, then when you don't give up discursive thought it's not a big issue. But if you commit to giving up discursive thought and then you don't, then you have something, then you've got a little bit of a problem. Maybe tomorrow I'll talk about...

[65:06]

well, actually I'll do it right now. If you commit to calm down, or if you sit down to calm down but you don't commit to it, or if you think, oh, calming down would be good, and you don't commit to it, you do not get visited by certain kinds of difficulties than if you would actually commit to settle down. I think I will talk about it tomorrow. It's too big a deal to bring up now, even though I brought it up. Yes? How do you train your mind to give up discursive thought? How? Okay.

[66:11]

Well, I'm not going to get really into it today. Tomorrow more. The first step in training your mind to giving up discursive thought, the first step is what? Anybody? To know your mind is being discursive? Well, not really. The first step is... What? What was that again? Yeah, the first step is commit to it. That's the first step, actually. Commit to it. And then once you commit to it, that's the first step. First step in training your mind to give up discursive thought is to commit to giving up discursive thought. Then, then one of the things you will be given, probably, is to notice that you're not giving up discursive thought. Once you commit to giving up discursive thought, then you probably will notice,

[67:12]

oh, there's some discursive thought and I'm totally into it. I'm totally caught up in it and I'm not only caught up in discursive thought, but I'm caught up in getting rid of it and I'm discursively trying to stop it. And I'm talking about that right now, actually, and I'm really upset. And this is not the program I just committed to and I'm not... Yeah, I'm kind of... This is... This kind of thing happens and then by confessing and repenting, you're, you know, rough, kind of rough and not very well-developed practice of giving up discursive thought, by revealing and disclosing this, you melt away the root of this being all hung up in discursive thought and you start to relax with being caught up in discursive thought and as you relax by confessing that you're caught up in discursive thought or by confessing that you're not relaxed,

[68:15]

confessing that you're not relaxed is basically quite a bit more relaxed than confessing that you're relaxed is relaxed. Excuse me, confessing that you're not relaxed is more relaxed and by continually confessing and relaxing, you actually start to relax. By confessing that you're not relaxed, you become more and more relaxed. Particularly if you confess that you're not relaxed in the presence of the Buddhas, you naturally become more relaxed. Confessing that you're relaxed is also okay. So that's basically it. Just commit to giving up discursive thought and then that may be it.

[69:18]

Commit to it and boom. Boom, it's given up. That happens. I commit to giving up discursive thought and that's the last I've seen of it for quite a while. And the person just goes boom, like concentrated, boom. Discursive thought may be in the neighborhood, but it's like there's no involvement with it. And the person just gets calmer and calmer. But some people, as you know, commit to giving up discursive thought, but it's like, oh, there's discursive thought and I'm still quite involved with it. And I confess that I'm quite involved. And the more you can say that in a relaxed, loving way, not hating yourself or the tradition which set this up, but rather loving your commitment

[70:19]

but just saying I did commit to this and it's not happening, it's not my experience. But I feel quite relaxed about it and yeah. And then pretty soon there's not even a comment on being involved in discursive thought. There's just non-discursive silence. And there's nothing to confess because nobody's talking anymore. Or there's talking, but the English that's going on or the Chinese that's going on is the talking of the frogs or the ocean. In England, one person came and told me that he came to this retreat because he wanted to be in a quiet place but actually there was the sound of crows, there were wood pigeons, there were dogs, cows and sheep and he really was upset about all these sounds. Although he didn't speak cow and sheep and crow, which they call rooks, he didn't speak their language

[71:20]

but he did speak the language of I hate those animal noises, I hate them. He was getting very discursive about these sounds, almost as active as we would be if we heard people talking around us during meditation. We might want him to shut up so we can give up discursive thought because it's harder to give up discursive thought when you people are talking. However, it is not impossible to give up discursive thought when you hear the sound of rooks, frogs or humans. It's possible to not get involved in discursive thought when you hear those sounds and without any of those sounds you can also get involved in discursive thought as you probably know. But if I do get involved in discursive thought what I mean is to not be discursive about that and to relax with it and that's basically it.

[72:20]

Radical relaxation comes to fruit as tranquility and alertness. And then you may hear a teaching saying come, practice wisdom now. Use your discursive thought to contemplate these teachings of interdependence. Yes, Shoho? You mentioned that you were going to talk about wisdom and how it especially ends that you might take time for it. I do have a concern that I'm kind of thinking that You're thinking?

[73:25]

I'm thinking about Discursively? Discursively. Can you believe that? We have a discursive thinker here? Wisdom coming from outside. You're thinking, not only you're thinking but you're thinking of wisdom coming from outside? Yeah? Because it's not helpful? You think that? You think that wisdom comes from outside and also you think it's not helpful to think that? So those are two different two different examples of discursive thought you just gave us? Thank you. And I could have discursive thoughts about what you just said too. And probably I will. You'll probably hear some discursive thoughts about that kind of discursive thought at some point. Hopefully after you've given up discursive thought about her discursive thought and after she gives up discursive thought about her discursive thought and everybody's calm then we can be very discursive about all these different kinds of discursive thought.

[74:28]

And from this calm, careful, flexible dealing with discursive thought there will arise wisdom. What's that sound? Do maintenance people know what that sound is? Let's go. It started after the truck came, right?

[75:34]

Yes. It started after the truck came. I don't

[76:42]

feel quite right about suggesting that you make a commitment to anything but I do feel comfortable, pretty comfortable about saying would you please consider whether you wish to make some commitments to some practices today and then for the rest of the week. Do you wish to commit to some practices today or to some practices for this week? And if you consider that and are not ready to make a commitment I completely accept that but I still think it would be good to consider whether you are going to make some commitments or not. And then be responsible and say I'm not yet ready to make a commitment to any particular practice yet at this time. But it's also possible yes I wish to make such and such a commitment for the rest of the day or for the first two days or until such and such happens

[77:46]

and then I may make some other commitments. So again I would suggest that you consider whether you're going to make a commitment and that would be good to consider that quite soon because there's not much time left and without commitment it's going to be a big problem in this world. But I'm not trying to talk you into it. Thank you.

[78:59]

I am proud to mention them who will say it's unsurpassable I am proud to be one.

[79:18]

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