is a continuation of what I've been talking about for the last few talks, and that is full self-expression and the role of full self-expression. Can you hear me, by the way? and the role of full self-expression in understanding and becoming liberated from self-clinging. So the Zen practice of sitting still is an opportunity for us to settle into an awareness

[01:43]

of what we're doing, settling into awareness of what we think we're doing. And the settling into, the being settled into what we think we're doing itself is not doing anything. Being settled into our experience of our activity is itself not an activity. Being settled into the awareness of our walking when we're walking, that awareness is not an action. to be settled into the awareness of our speaking when we are speaking.

[02:53]

That awareness is not speaking and is not action. Such awareness of our action or our karma is non-karmic and called non-doing. This is what the elephant was doing all day. And first self-expression first begins to emerge from this kind of pure awareness of what's happening. There can be some self-expression, of course, without being settled into the awareness of what's happening.

[04:04]

There can be a partial expression of self. But this partial expression is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an expression that's so complete, that's so full, that the action does not involve any longer any craving. any thirst, and does not even involve a self. It is total action that emerges not from a self, but from awareness of a self doing things.

[05:12]

It's not the action of a self, it's the action which emerges from the awareness of a self which thinks it can do things. So this awareness does not negate the ordinary type of activity of me doing things, or the ordinary view of me doing things, or you doing things. It does not argue with that or negate that. Matter of fact, it settles into the ordinary way of understanding life, that I do things and you do things. And by settling into that awareness, a new kind of action which is total and complete emerges from this awareness. But this action is not personal. This is the action of the total situation. So, for example, I sit here.

[06:17]

That's the ordinary point of view. I sit here, you sit there. I do the sitting of this body here, you do the sitting of your body there. This is the usual way. But as I settle into the point of view that I'm sitting here, And as you settle into the point of view that you sit there, from that settledness comes action which is not action which you do or I do. But the settledness has to be complete because if there's any holding back from settling into your view that you can do something by yourself, then that still leaves some of that attitude running loose to try to get in on and take credit for what's happening.

[07:28]

As I sit here and I speak, and I think that I speak As I approach more and more fully accepting and taking responsibility for my speaking to you, it gets in some ways more and more difficult. And there's more and more a tendency to turn away from awareness of what I'm doing to the kind of attitude of, once again, I'm doing things. As I take more and more responsibility for my independent action, I feel more and more anxious. As I take more and more responsibility for my view that I'm acting independently of you, I feel more and more threatened by you.

[08:39]

As I take more and more credit for my view that I'm not operating in cooperation with you, I feel more anxious. But when I take complete responsibility for my delusion that I can speak by my own power, not in cooperation with you, as I completely settle into and take responsibility for that and therefore feel all anxiety, there begins this new expression which spontaneously arises not from me, not from you, but from me admitting that I think I'm not new. It comes from an honest awareness and it is the working of all of us.

[09:47]

If people hear about full self-expression, my experience is they often come to me and say, but mightn't I harm someone? And it may be difficult for me to fully... fully demonstrate how it is, but I propose to you right off that full self-expression, this kind of full self-expression, when brought to its completion, is always beneficial, never harmful. That actually, what is most harmful is expression where we deny ourself, where we reject ourself, where we're still in the realm of I do something.

[11:17]

But not just I do something, but particularly dangerous is not only are we still in the realm of I do things, but I deny that I do things. I'm not doing things. It's from there. It's from not taking responsibility for our delusion that we can act independently that the most destructive acts arise. It is somewhat dangerous and destructive to act with the idea that you can act independently. That's somewhat disturbing, somewhat destructive. But to deny that you think that way, to hide from yourself that that's the way you operate, incredibly large-scale damage can occur. Because not only are you acting in this deluded way, or am I acting in this deluded way, without any surveillance by myself, because I don't admit that I do this, but in addition to that, somebody right nearby is extremely angry at being denied

[12:43]

warded, pent up, and ignored. So not only is the activity unguided, unobserved, unadmitted, and nobody's responsible for it, but there's tremendous rage in it. Whereas in full self-expression, it's completely unguided. from the beginning under first of all from the beginning it's under close and thorough personal surveillance and also there's no anger because there's no anger at being frustrated because the person is satisfied and happy to be able to fully express herself she's content in full expression when there's not full expression we're hungry tigers We yearn for full expression. That's what we're here for.

[13:44]

But not just full expression which is contenting, but full expression which is contenting and also interconnecting. So I further propose that to bring self-expression full self-expression which comes not from personal effort to express oneself fully, but comes spontaneously, that to bring that full expression to its completion, we can only do so actually in concert and in cooperation with another. We cannot fully express ourselves by ourselves. We can only fully express ourselves together with another. Full self-expression, which comes from this being settled with being

[14:53]

a person who thinks she can act alone. That full self-expression is satisfying and is very good. It's the beginning of the complete full expression. But then that full expression needs to be brought to meet another person who's fully expressing himself. And in that meeting, the true ultimate full expression is realized. in the cooperation between the two beings. The first phase in this development of this transcendent beneficial full function is to settle yourself on yourself, to settle your karma on your karma. This is your intra-psychic work, working with yourself as yourself, settling yourself on yourself.

[16:02]

When you're completely self-rested and settled upon the self, this is the completion of your intra-psychic work, your work with yourself. This is what we call sitting in your house and doing nothing all day. And from this sitting in your house, doing nothing all day, you naturally want to go meet a butterfly, a Buddha, anybody. But this is not a personal thing. It is a transpersonal desire. It's a desire that arises out of contentment at being what you are. It's not trying to get anything. It's not trying to manipulate anything.

[17:06]

Then, when you are settled in this way, I would say you have a face. You have a face. You have settled your face on your face. And then you bring this face to meet another face. And in Zen, the realization of the full function, which is not a personal full function, even though it's called full self-expression, the realization of full self-expression happens face to face. When two faces that are settled on themselves meet, we say only a Buddha and a Buddha. Only a face and a face. This is the interface. interpersonal, inter-persona meeting. It is difficult to settle yourself on yourself.

[18:12]

As I just said, the more you do it, the more you settle yourself on yourself, until you reach the point of complete settling, it gets you to feel more anxiety and more pain at your sense of separation. You have to have great patience and fortitude to actually completely settle and completely take responsibility for your dualistic point of view. Once you're settled, you have a face. Then you go to meet the other. So in Zen, that part of this kind of settling with yourself, this inter-psychic work, is called just sitting. Then going to bring your face, which you've realized through your just sitting, You bring that just sitting face, you go see the teacher.

[19:15]

You go meet the teacher's face. You bring your settled face to meet the settled face of the teacher. Hopefully the teacher has been doing the same thing, waiting for you. Sitting in the house, waiting for you to come visit. And this meeting realizes the full self-expression or the full function or what we call the whole works. Realizes everything and also realizes the working of everything through this meeting. And again, it is difficult to do this settling But it's after doing this settling, after accomplishing this personal, inter-psychic settling, then it is more difficult than to get up and take your face to meet another face.

[20:17]

Many people get their face on their face, they bring their face, but then when they see the other face, they drop their face. They forget their face. They look and they say, oh my God, and look at the face. Which is good. You have gone to meet a face. You have gone to meet a face and you have met the face. And it's wonderful to meet the face. But you don't forget your face when you meet the face. It's very difficult to meet the face and recognize the face and also remember your face. To keep saying, okay, here's my face, to your face. There's your face to my face. It's very difficult to keep asserting your position while recognizing this other face who you have gone to because you feel you're going to meet someone who's working on having a face. That dynamic is very difficult. The previous one is difficult. This is the next step of difficulty. A new level and a new realm of anxiety has now opened up.

[21:20]

All the way along, however, if we can face this anxiety, facing that anxiety is the door to infinite love, infinite peace, infinite bliss. If we back away from that anxiety with ourself or when we meet the other, the door to love is closed by our inability to face the anxiety of expressing ourselves with ourselves and expressing ourselves with the other. Facing the anxiety, the door is open and we realize full self-expression. There's only one thing harder than settling yourself onto yourself. There's only one thing harder than taking responsibility for meeting yourself, for taking responsibility for your idea of your own karma.

[22:29]

The only thing more difficult than that is to go and do it with somebody else. But if you do the first, you have a chance to do the second. You have a chance through that meeting to actually theatrically, practically, every daily, in an earthly way, to enact the dance of the cosmos, which is happening everywhere all the time, but it's hard to take your place. It's hard to take your seat, and then it's hard to take your seat with somebody else who's taking her seat, and to meet, and to talk, and to dance. And this dance, nobody knows how to do before they arrive. You do not know how to do the dance when you meet this other person before you get there. It doesn't have a name. It's not the tango, the mambo, the samba, the twist. It is an unnamed dance.

[23:30]

It is a dance that only happens at the moment of meeting. No one knows where it is. Everyone's awkward at it. And we can only do it with the help of the other. but we can't only do it with the help of the other because the other won't do it for us. We have to fully do our job, and the other has to fully do her job. It's the only way this is going to happen. We need to do our own job. We need others to do their job. We don't do others' jobs. They don't do their job for us, but we can't accomplish this by ourself. and nobody can do it for us. And we need everybody in the world to do their job. Their job is to take responsibility for their actions, for their self, and come to meet us. Our responsibility is to do the same and to go meet them. Nothing is more wonderful for a human being. Nothing is more difficult. We have these what are called koans in Zen.

[24:35]

Koans are basically stories of people, human beings, who have completely settled upon themselves and then gone to meet another person who has settled upon himself. It is the meeting of several beings, of responsible adults who have gone to meet each other. Some of the stories the meeting was too much and they gave up and came back later. Some of the stories they met successfully and these are the great moments of success in the history of Zen. So I'll tell you Some of the stories. One of them is about the master of our lineage named Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna is perhaps, after the Buddha Shakyamuni, the most important Buddhist teacher in all of history.

[25:42]

He was sitting in his house on a hill doing nothing all day. He looked out the window and he saw someone coming. And the person he saw coming was a man named Aryadeva, which means noble deity. Aryadeva, even before meeting his teacher Nagarjuna, was a person of great wisdom and compassion. Nagarjuna could see this and had his attendant bring a bowl brimming with water out to his visitor. The attendant brought the bowl of water and placed it before Aryadeva. Aryadeva then took a needle and placed it on the surface of the water and brought it to Nagarjuna and gave it to him.

[26:58]

And they merged in full expression and full bliss of shared understanding. Seeing someone come, he offered a bowl of water This was his full self-expression, a bowl of water. The visitor coming took a needle. Monks carry needles to sew their robes. He pulled his needle out of his robe-sewing kit, placed it on the water. This is called two people fully expressing themselves and meeting. Imagine having this water brought to you. reaching into your sewing kit, taking the needle and fully expressing yourself by placing that needle in the water. Imagine seeing a beloved friend who you've never met before coming to see you, coming to study with you, wanting to meet him.

[28:11]

and sending him a bowl of water to express yourself so that he can express himself to you and you can meet. So I think, you know, when I meet people, do I offer them, do I offer them a bowl of water for them to respond to. And I think, when people come to me and offer me a bowl of water, do I give them back very precisely something, like a needle? Do I offer my expression as clear and forthright and open and full as a needle to meet their offer? Do we offer this fullness to each other when we meet?

[29:14]

Maybe not. But this is what the ancestors all worked towards, and none of them said it was easy. This story is recorded for more than a thousand years because it is the ideal towards which we work in expressing ourselves or meeting another. It's not easy, but it can happen. And when it does, no one can say how wonderful it is. A friend of mine came to visit recently. She came to Tassajara. I met her there. Old Zen student who moved away, coming back to visit. She and her husband and son flew into San Francisco and then flew to San Jose to pick up a rent-a-car.

[30:17]

And since they were going over the mountains to Tassajara, they rented a four-wheel drive. Before she came, she called up and made a reservation with, I won't mention the company, made a reservation with his rental company. Got confirmation of the four-wheel drive vehicle. Then, just to make sure, before they left North Carolina, she called again to confirm, make sure they had the car for her. The day they left, the rental place said, yes, we have the car right here. They flew into San Francisco, flew down to San Jose, went to the rental place, and they said, I'm sorry, we did not have the car. And she said, I think she said something like, this is not acceptable.

[31:27]

We did our part in good faith. We made this arrangement with you. You agreed. We checked. You agreed. Now I'm here. You're not agreeing. This is not acceptable. We want the four-wheel drive car. The person said, I'm sorry, we don't have it. She said, that is not acceptable. And I think she told me that she became angry. And I don't remember exactly at what point in the story, but at some point in the story, she looked in the face, of the person, of the woman at the desk. And she saw her face, which was expressing suffering. And things changed at that point. However, she still said, this is not acceptable. And then the woman did some research and said, well, we found another car.

[32:35]

It's across the other side of San Jose. You can take a bus or a cab over there or something. So then she said, okay. And then they walked out of the rental place. And as they walked out of the rental place, they saw that they had to cross several lanes of busy traffic at the airport to get to the bus station. And she turned around, went back into the place and said, this is not acceptable. We're not going to troop all of our stuff across the town and go through all this trouble to get the car. We did not agree to do this. You need to bring the car to us or give us cab money to go over there. After back and forth from this away many times, finally they gave another rent a car, which they drove over to the place and got their car, drove in and drove down to Tassajara. But in telling me this story, she wasn't sure of how she had behaved. She wasn't sure about her anger. This meeting face to face, she wasn't sure how she did.

[33:37]

I think she did pretty well, but it is possible in those situations to express yourself in some senses even more fully than she did. So fully, so fully that you don't have to get angry. And to look in the face of the other person and clearly, fully present yourself from a place of settling with the fact that you're a person, who is taking responsibility for the karmic acts that you're doing, of wanting, of trying to get the car, of making the efforts to get the car, of being frustrated, of working to get a better arrangement. It's not that that counts, but being responsible for what you're doing. And from that comes the expression, which helps the other person come forth with their best expressions. So, but it's very difficult in a situation like that, in the face of someone you love or someone you don't know, to flat out be yourself.

[34:51]

Really. It's so difficult that basically no one can do it. That's why this is actually not a personal act. It's a spontaneous thing that erupts from somebody being responsible for being somebody. It's from that that this kind of act emerges. But it's very difficult to fully be present in a situation like that. It's actually difficult to be fully present in any situation. One more story. If you practice the violin for many years, you can get pretty proficient. You work with yourself, you work with your feelings, you work with your sensations, you work with your arms and legs and your mind and the violin, you can learn some skills.

[35:58]

This is intra-psychic work. You can stand on your feet, hold the bow and the... and the violin and play some music. One time I saw a film of Isaac Stern teaching violin in China. And he was teaching the violin to a young violinist. And this young man was playing some piece very skillfully. He had worked with himself for a long time to be able to do this. He had lots of skill and he could be present with himself and be himself in that skill. He could take responsibility for what he was doing. And there was a joy in being able to be responsible for all the intense activity which he was involved in.

[37:02]

he had done is he had a face. He brought Isaac Stern a lovely young Chinese face and a bow and a violin and a body. And Isaac Stern stood close to him while he was playing and he said, make it sing. Make it sing, it's not sing. And when I heard the board playing, the young man playing, before Isaac Stern said that, I thought, he's very good. But when Isaac Stern said, it's not singing, I thought, that's right, he's not singing. This is very good, but he's not singing. Now, I couldn't play what that boy was doing. Most of us couldn't. But if I could, it would be hard for me to imagine that I could do that and also have Isaac Stern in my face.

[38:09]

And not just Isaac Stern up close in my face, but kind of yelling at me, telling me to sing with my instrument. And then Isaac Stern starting to sing, singing, he was singing at the boy. The boy had enough presence. to keep his face on when his other face was so strongly expressing itself in his face and keep playing the music and keep his feet on the ground and stay present and play that music while this wonderful teacher was in his face saying, sing, sing, sing. He was stable. He was skillful. And his teacher pushed him. pushed him out of his stiffness in his skill, out of his attachment to his skill, into the other realm, far beyond his personal karma. And the music started singing. You could hear the music became music.

[39:12]

We cannot make that move by ourself. We must take our own position and fully, skillfully take responsibility for it. We will meet the other and the other pushes us. And we push the other into the realm beyond what we can do ourselves. But no one can push us. No one should push us. The teacher should have pushed the student before the student can stand on her feet and adjust even when pushed. The teacher has to tell which students can you go over to and start singing to when they're playing their instrument, which people have enough presence to ask them to come beyond and meet in the other non-personal way. Sometimes teachers make mistakes and ask the student to sing too soon. The students drop their violin. That's too bad.

[40:17]

It's hard to say how bad that is, but perhaps worse is to never go and ask them to come to play. To never knock on the door and say, may I come in? And to never say, yes, please do. So the story of the elephant and the butterfly leaves out the hard part of the discipline of settling on ourself. But if you add that part in, it's a good story about Zen practice. Do you understand? And now the song. I'm sorry I don't have any new songs for you. I don't know any. I'm too old. This is a song by a person named Cole Porter.

[41:23]

Cole Porter, if I might say, was a good person who never could express that openly. But he found another way called music. Anyway, here's the song. Some of you know it probably. I don't know exactly what tune to pick, but I'll start with this one. It's the wrong time and the wrong place. Though your face is charming, it's the wrong face. It's not her face, but such a charming face that it's all right. with me it's the wrong song and the wrong style though your smile is lovely it's the wrong smile it's not your smile but such a lovely smile that it's all right with me you know no

[42:33]

I mean, when you're facing up to someone and that other person hasn't done what I would call their homework for you. And it's, for example, your mother. Right, but you're 100% each. You're 100% still is in response to what they're doing. If you're practicing 100%, you can still see the other person's practicing 100% not doing their homework. But the way you can meet them is different than the way you can meet someone else who's done their homework. When somebody hasn't done their homework, they're exactly that. And that's very painful when you meet someone who's not willing to be where she is. It's very painful for you. You can see her pain too. Okay, how about if someone, you know that they can perform their 100% but they aren't?

[43:55]

That's everybody. But they're totally aware of it and they choose not to or... Well, first of all, you have to be willing, I have to be willing to feel what it's like to be with somebody who's not fulfilling their potential. And I need you to fulfill your potential. If you don't do it, it's not something I'm going to feel comfortable about. I don't feel comfortable if you don't do your homework. You don't feel comfortable if I don't do my homework. But if you don't do your homework, I have to work with the fact that I'm not comfortable with that. So, I have to be patient with my pain at you not coming to meet me fully. Now, patient with it doesn't mean that I don't say, I don't ask you, for example, do you want to meet me fully? It doesn't mean I don't ask you that question. It just means that I don't ask you that question from my impatience with my pain that you're not coming to meet me.

[44:57]

I'm patient with my pain. And from that patience, I ask you, do you want to meet me? If you say no or yes anyway, I can ask that question. I can say, this is unacceptable, without being impatient with my pain at what I consider to be unacceptable. And I can say that to you in a way that can possibly encourage you to come to meet me. I can say it to you while feeling like you're... that can possibly encourage you to come to meet me. I can say to you, while feeling like you're not coming to meet me, I can still respect you, and you can still feel for me that I really respect you. And when you see someone who really respects you in one sense, you want to get away from them, because that's the very person you most want to meet. In another sense, you want to meet that person, because that is the person you want to meet.

[46:02]

You want to meet somebody who respects you. Because the person you respect most is somebody who respects you. That's Buddha. But sometimes you still feel, in the face of someone who respects you, you still feel like, maybe they'll stop respecting me if they find out more about me. If they see how unskillful I am, you know. Like in my case, I learned how to do certain kinds of chants, Japanese Buddhist chants. I learned from a master of these kinds of chants. And Suzuki Roshi sent me to study with this teacher to learn those chants. And I learned them. I learned them really well. He was an older man and he was from a certain rural area in Japan. So I learned exactly like he did it. So I learned his world dialect and all his old man nuances in his voice.

[47:10]

So after I learned that, Suzuki Roshi came down to Tatsuhara and he said, teach me, show me what you learned from this other teacher. So I chanted for him and he said, oh, that's beautiful when he does it, but you... It's funny when you copy it exactly. But he was very happy that I had learned it exactly, you know. But still, it wasn't appropriate for me to do it, just like that old Japanese man. So then he kind of like ironed my chant, smoothed it out, because it had gotten a little bit too eccentric, you know, by copying it exactly. So he ironed it out, sort of smoothed it out, made it more kind of normal. He was giving me, I mean, I came to Zen Center to get his attention. You know, I gave up everything in a way to come and be with this teacher and get his attention. And then here he was giving me his attention. He had me trained at something, and then he was coming to give me further training on what he had got me trained at. He gave me all that attention, all that love, but I wanted to get out of the room. I felt him out.

[48:14]

I didn't want all that attention, I was afraid that I wouldn't do well in his presence. And I kept saying, oh, thank you, that's, thank you. Thank you very much, I'll go now. And he said, no, no, do it again. Do it again, do it again. So, somehow, even though he, I felt his love, I felt his attention, I felt his support, still, when I actually was getting it, it was hard to stay present with that. But, you know, he was patient with me and said, you know, do it again, do it again so I can stay. Thank you. Yes. I'm in a bit of a dilemma on just beginning to do my work as far as the city and even beginning to... understand the positive that will be for me in my life.

[49:17]

And I'm wondering, this may sound so basic, but I'm married and I'm not sure that I will, it may be a while, I don't know, it may be a while before I'm where, as you referred to it this morning, I have been able to do my sitting long enough to then meet my husband fully. And yet we have our daily exchanges. I mean, constant interactions that not only are they not full, but they carry a lot of history of pain. So it seems a little bit of a dilemma because I don't have the opportunity to do my own work. Uh-huh. I understand. Could you hear what she said?

[50:19]

I know. No? Well, so anyway, let's say we're starting to sit and starting to settle with ourselves, and then we have some relationships already where we can see that we're not fully meeting the person, all right? And it's going to be a while before we're so settled in ourself that we have the confidence and not even confidence, but we have the confidence to be ourselves and then allow this whole expression to come forward in response to people. It's going to be a while, maybe, if you feel. Meantime, you're going along, missing all these opportunities to meet the person fully with all the history and everything, right? So that's her situation she described. All right? So... So in the past when we missed those opportunities that has been difficult for us and everyone we missed, everyone I miss from now on is another miss, is another opportunity for life not fully realized.

[51:32]

And as I sit more and more with myself I also can sit more and more with the pain of missing these opportunities. the more completely I can settle into missing the opportunity to fully express myself, the closer I'm getting to fully expressing myself. When I can fully experience the pain of missing the opportunity of meeting you, when I can fully feel the pain of missing the opportunity of meeting you, I'm just about ready to meet you. I said in a number of my classes recently, I said, try to find somebody, at least one person besides me, because I'm telling you, I'm up for this, okay? Try to find somebody else who wants you to fully express yourself to her or him. Try to find somebody. Go around, ask your friends. If they would like you to fully express yourself, ask your husband.

[52:38]

Maybe he'll say, We didn't know what to say. I went home and asked my wife after I asked the class that, I said, do you want me to fully express myself to you? And she said, no. But it was sweet. Did you do it anyway? Well, I think asking somebody that's pretty full expression. But, you know, later I went and told the class that I asked my wife and she said no. And then I went back to her and I said, why did you say no? And she said, because you didn't play with me in the past when I wanted to play. Okay. But, you know, it is when she told me that, that it was playing. She was playing when she told me that and she was playing when she said no. Even her saying no, she was playing, she was expressing herself, she was letting me express myself and she was responding. So, do you want me to fully express myself doesn't mean do you want me to fully express myself and then you not do anything.

[53:45]

Do you want to fully express yourself? Yes. And do I want to deal with what you do when I fully express myself? Well, yes. That's part of it. If I ask you if you want me to fully express myself to you and you say yes, then I understand that that means that I say to you, and I want you to fully express yourself in response to me. Doesn't mean I'll like it, but it means I can respond. In fact, we do respond, we always do. The question is settling with that and experiencing that. And between now And when we realize this full expression, which is not one person's doing but is the total function of the situation, until that time there's gonna be some pain and anxiety. But that pain and anxiety can be used to drive us and encourage us to go deeper and deeper and be more and more thoroughgoing in this process. Your husband and your mother are the most difficult people to meet.

[54:53]

Because you've already met them a little bit, about 50 million times. The only place to go from here is deeper. you know you've already gone like if you've been married a long time and you're like into the 10th 15th 20th year you've never been in the 20th year of a marriage with somebody before you have no you know that's why some people like to have one year relationships over but because you know certain things certain things happen and they're very familiar oh now we hit this part of it nice nice when you get to the at the end of the year then you don't know what's going to happen so go back and start over But you get to the fifth, and the twenty-fifth, and the fiftieth, and you get out there, and nobody knows what it's supposed to be. And you say, it should be this, it should be that, but you know nobody knows what... Nobody knows. But we have feelings. We have a lot of feelings. There was somebody over there before. No? She went away? Yes, she left. Yes?

[55:53]

Well, um... I'm trying to... I'm starting to learn to... to realize that I can't even express myself. Yes. And I... I noticed that this morning I tried to do that, but it was all very crude. Yeah. And the crudest part was the resolution in which we both acknowledged that we were expressing ourselves and we sort of... The recognition was the crudest part? Yeah, because it was sort of... Well, maybe I shouldn't ask this question. I should think about it a little bit further.

[56:54]

It has to do with right and wrong and trying to not fall into the pattern of judging. Trying to not fall into the pattern of judging. Did you hear that? Trying to not fall into the pattern of judging. Well, good luck. I'm not going to make too much fun of people who try not to fall into the pattern of judging, but to try not to fall into the pattern of judging is judging. So as soon as you try not to fall into the pattern of judging, you already have fallen. Okay? What I recommend is take responsibility for falling into the pattern of judging. Take responsibility for willingly entering into judgment. Human beings judge. Take responsibility for it when you do it. If you take complete responsibility, you settle completely into an act of judgment. You can understand it and see what it is and become free of it.

[57:57]

If you hold back from what you're doing, like judging or whatever, if you hold back from it, you'll just be a puppet of it forever. Most people are possessed by judgmental tendencies. And they're possessed by it because they're back here. If you bring the judgment out in front and do it, and admit exactly how you're doing it, And even say to somebody else, now I'm going to show you my judgment. Watch this. Boom. Then you can see how it works, and then you can become free of it. If you keep it back there and try to keep it back, keep it back, try not to do it, keep it back, you'll never understand it. You'll always be spending your life under the auspices of judgment. If you bring it out in front, you can be free of it. So study the judgments. Non-judgmental mind is not to not judge. Non-judgmental mind is understanding judgment.

[59:02]

The only way to understand judgment, you don't understand other people's judgment, the only way to understand judgment is to study it. The only way to study it is to have it out in front where you can look at it. And also, don't just look at it by yourself, look at it with somebody else who also is into looking at it. Two of you together, five of you together, ten of you together can understand it and all be free. But that means everybody's got to put their judgment cards on the table and nobody's above it. Okay? But it's not pleasant to put your judgment on it. Isn't it? Last week after our Monday night class, a friend and I who were in the class together met to try expressing ourselves, as you were suggesting. And it was really quite an experiment. We tried facing each other. We tried not facing each other.

[60:05]

We tried a number of different things, and we had fun playing with it. And then we both agreed we should go home. It suggests to our husbands of more than 20 years. And so I did, and I asked my husband if he was willing to I can't really fully express myself, but he said, well... Okay. So that was a whole different experience than I just had with my friend. But anyway, I began, I said, well, okay, I'll go first. So I said a few things, and I really can't remember the content of what I said exactly. And then I said, well, okay, it's your turn. And he said, why can't you just let everything be as it is and stop all this fussing?

[61:12]

And, you know, I thought, well... Yeah, why can't I? It was really a good question. And I thought, you know, then my mind got into it, and I thought, God, that's really an insult. And, you know, but after I thought about it, I didn't react that way initially. It's just like I was really, it was okay, that's where he is. Yeah, that was his expression. That was his expression. And then your expression might be, gee, that wouldn't hurt. Well, actually, it didn't at that moment because I thought, well, yeah, that's exactly actually what I'm trying to do. It's let everything be just as it is. It's just that I have a certain feeling about something. Right. And his view of letting things be as they are is that I shouldn't have those feelings. I should just be okay with however things are. I'm not talking about your husband, but that's not letting things be alone. You don't want other people to express themselves as not letting things be alone.

[62:12]

But letting yourself not want them to be that way, That's letting your feelings of not wanting them to be that way alone. So if I don't want you to be the way you are, then my job is to take responsibility for the fact that I'd like you to be different. I can't control that I would like some people to be different. I just do sometimes. Maybe you want them to be different. That's my problem. But what I can do, the miraculous thing I can do, is I can accept that I feel the way I do. And that has wondrous potential. But it's very difficult for me to accept how petty I am. It's easy for me to accept what a grand person I am, the grand, magnanimous thoughts I have about you. No problem. But any kind of pettiness or whatever I may feel about somebody, or any lack of acceptance of somebody, that's hard for me to accept in myself. But in fact, it's happening. If I can settle into it, just as it happens, no longer, no shorter, no more, no less than it is,

[63:16]

then I've taken responsibility for what I've done. That is not karma. That is not petty. That is non-judgmental. Because I do the same thing with everything. Everything. The same thing. If I do have a petty thought, I don't despise it, I don't esteem it. I just become exactly that petty thought. If I have a grand thought, I don't despise it, I don't esteem it. I just become totally proficient at what I'm doing, which is what I'm doing anyway, so why not do it completely? That's what I'm saying. And it's difficult... when you think a grand thought not to esteem it, and it's difficult when you think a petty thought not to despise it. To treat them the same is non-judgmental, non-discriminating wisdoms of Buddha. It is infinite compassion, because you have infinite opportunities to embrace your own pettiness. And to be able to embrace each pettiness the same way, just exactly as it is, is leaving things alone, including leave alone that you don't leave things alone.

[64:25]

That's the thing I was most pleased about when this thing happened, is that I didn't jump over to his side and say, oh yeah, I shouldn't be that way. I sort of stayed where I was and just let it be. Right. Right. And it's hard enough to do it by alone. If you can do it alone, then try to do it with somebody else. It's harder to do it with somebody else. When they start doing this stuff, we get turned, we get spun around by these words, you know, and we lose our orientation. Even when we feel settled, somebody starts talking to us. You know, we're the kind of animals that a word can just flip us in the air. Right. It's incredible how sensitive we are to a word, you know? Like suddenly, you're sitting there, just sitting there like this, and you go, and somebody says, no, and you go, what? You know? Whereas if they had said, he actually would have gone, oh, isn't that funny? We're amazing for each other. Yes? There are relationships that do not support our full expression. There's no relationships that don't support our full expression.

[65:33]

Please explain. If you're in a situation where you feel like leaving, that can be your full expression. I can go on, but just for starters, okay? Some situations, your full expression is to leave the meeting, is to say, I have to go to the bathroom. It's a full expression sometimes. It's not running away. Sometimes running away is full expression. Anything can be full expression. And all situations support... Every situation supports full expression in that situation. Now there are situations where the person you're meeting is not up for inhabiting their own body. Your full expression when you're meeting someone who is unable to be present with what's happening to them, your full expression in that case will be different than your full expression with somebody who is able to be present.

[66:39]

So Suzuki Roshi's full expression with me when I was trying to get away was, please stay. If I had been able to say, I'd like to leave, and it was a full expression, he might have said, see you later. Or he might have said, thank you. Or whatever. There's no situation which doesn't support your full expression, even the situation of someone who's not doing their homework. You can fully respond to someone who's not doing their homework. Fully. Fully. However, they don't... And another part of your full expression in a situation like that is you feel pain because you would like them to join in. But that's your full expression is that you feel pain that this person is not able to meet you at this moment. I feel comfort because we've been taught not to leave.

[67:40]

In our relationship, you do not seek your spiritual expression, you seek the relationship. I couldn't hear what you said. We've been taught to... Not to leave? We've been taught not to leave, but we've also been taught to leave. We've been taught both. It's even worse than you said, in other words. We've been taught to leave under these circumstances. We've been taught to stay. We've been taught a lot of stuff. We've been taught a whole bunch of stuff that we have to deal with if we've been taught. Yes? We have not been taught to concentrate on ourselves. We have not been, generally speaking, been taught to pay attention to ourselves. Generally speaking, that's a rare teaching in this world. So as I've come into it all, During that, to find a mindful expression, there are these type of thoughts and feelings that, wow, what would I do with this person? The focus is shifted to the people around me. And that's what holds me back, what I express to myself. What holds you back? When my thoughts shift to focusing on others.

[68:44]

Your thought shifts to others and that holds you back from expressing yourself. Well, another way to put it is, the way you think is that when your thoughts are focused on others, you don't understand how that's an expression of yourself. I can, for me to pay attention to you, for me to listen to you, I can understand, and I do feel, is a full expression of myself. Some people are very happy for me to express myself by listening to them. They love it when I listen to them. That's my expression, that's the expression they most appreciate from me. is for me to listen to them, for me to look at them. That's, you know, this is an expression of myself and this is an expression of myself. So, you may think that looking at somebody and listening to somebody is less of an expression of yourself than for you to be talking and you to be looked at. Not necessarily. The fullest expression, which saves everybody, is when I'm listening to you and you're listening to me. I'm expressing myself to you by listening to you.

[69:48]

You're expressing yourself to me by looking at me. You're expressing yourself to me By talking, you're recognizing me by talking. But my speech to you and my gestures to you are saying to you, I recognize you. Even though I'm really exercising and expressing myself, you feel like I'm recognizing you. And when I see that you feel like you're being recognized by my actions, I receive from you and recognize how you're receiving me. This, you know, is the inconceivable possibility. As I enter more into a practice of meditating, these relationships that I've had, that I didn't support, because I was just that kind of person and was really into a practice. But as I enter more into a practice of complete secrets, I would say to my friends, you are interested in meditation now. By the time I'm taken to meditate or to learn about Buddhism or Dharma, it means I don't have that time to share with people in my life, and... Yeah. So there's that conflict, do I not come here in Sundays instead of... Yes.

[70:51]

...developing a dark plane, and... At this time in your practice, you see it that way. Pardon? You're telling me, and you're telling me how you see things now, okay? All right? That you feel like coming to Zen Center and concentrating on learning Dharma and studying yourself takes you away from working on relationship with your friends, in a way. Is that what you said? It does. It does in a way. Because I can't relate to that this way. You can't relate to them this way, yes. Even this room, you can share us in here. Yes. That's what I've had. I cannot share that with them. Right. So the conflict is, do I need those relationships? But you could also say, the relationship you have with those people, you can't share here. You could say that too. Yeah. Okay? Okay. So that's part of the nature of your situation. Probably wishes that I have for those people, but I'm tired. It's not a true expression of myself anymore. Yes, yes. So as I come into more of a true expression, something is changing.

[71:58]

I still have those people, but as I find myself... So if you go back to those people, there may be some expectation that you relate to them the way you used to. Yeah. But you don't want to do that if you have to give up what you're learning, right? So that's, sometimes we say, during that phase of your practice, don't go back to those people. Stay away from them until your new way is strong enough so you can go back and be with them without eroding the new things you learn. It's not exactly leaving, it's just getting more established in your new practice before you go back to a situation where they're expecting you to act an old way. Like they said, somebody said to Jesus, or Jesus said, don't go back to your hometown. They'll say, hi, Jesus. So eventually you want to go back and be with your old friends, but you don't want to slip back into old bad habits, which they expect you to do. When your new habits are strong, you won't have to resist anymore. It won't be like they're saying, oh, come on, let's do this.

[73:00]

Be your old self. Be the way you used to be. You can say, in a relaxed and loving way, you can say, that guy is gone. I grew up. I'm not a kid anymore. Please forgive me for drawing up. Please accept me. being somebody who you know is willing to look you in the face like i never did before i you know i don't mean this as an affront but i'm not the same person i used to be remember how i used to be i used to be able to push me around and make me tell lies i won't do it anymore but i love you even though i've changed and i'm not going to change back out of fear of what's going to happen between us because i really don't think It would be good for you either. You can do that. But when you first go back, you cringe and you crumble under the pressure of your old friends or your family. So you have to stay away for a while. Generally speaking, about five years. If you're married, it's really hard to get started.

[74:02]

Because, you know, you can't get away for five years. So it's very hard when you're married to start transforming your way of being. Because that person's, like, relying on you. They want to change, but they want you to stay the same. You're part of their stability from which they can grow and vice versa. So it's difficult. That's a difficulty to move on and bring somebody that close with you. That's why most people, like, leave those relationships to go study. So it's more complicated when you're in a marriage relationship to develop a new thing. It's more complicated. But there it is. Not impossible? Not impossible, no. Why it's nice... If you're not married now, I would suggest waiting until you... Get stronger in your practice before you're married. You know? And when you're more established in your practice, then you're not going to lose it. You won't be so likely to lose it when you get married.

[75:06]

So wait a while and train yourself more before you get married, I would say, if you can possibly wait. Yes? I don't know if you can comment on that more than I can at the moment. Anybody else afterwards, too? My husband and I have been looking for a house to live in for a little over a year, and we had to walk to the roof. And we finally found a house that we both agreed on, and it seemed really wonderful, and it was falling into place, and then I found out what it was for. And my husband is a much more sort of... I mean, you just sort of believe that life will work itself out and it will be fine. And I tend to believe that this is the catastrophe that I've been predicting. What kind of house is it? What kind of house is it? It's a wood, it's a stucco house that was built, actually Tara Lazzaro's granddaughter lived there. And that was one of the things that we fell in love with about it.

[76:10]

And it's beautiful and it's in a very sort of wildlife setting. Well, have you had an engineer come on and tell you what they think? Well, that's what we're going to do this jam. Yeah. I would give some structural engineer to give you his opinion about what would happen if an earthquake happened. They might say, you know, this place will just collapse, you know. They might say it'll bounce around. It depends on the building. Where an earthquake falls here, you know, and even our old center didn't fall down, but we still rebuilt it just to make sure, you know, to make an earthquake more earthquake-proof. But I think I would try to find out more about the situation before I moved in, especially with little babies who can't necessarily run over and stand in the doorway. Right. So I guess I would just try to find out more and more and more and more before I made the decision. Yeah. Yes. Well, most children are incapable of settling into awareness of themselves.

[77:23]

That's part of what an adult should understand. Children are very, it's very difficult for them to be self-aware at all until usually past teenage years. It's so, you know, it's so whatever for them. They have to turn around and notice that they think, you know, that they can do things independently. And that they have to be aware of their feelings is very difficult for them. So this kind of meeting is rarely possible with someone under 20. They just aren't capable of doing the work. So you're working with someone who, if they are self-aware, is fantastic and you're grateful for it, but you don't necessarily expect it. What you do is you teach them, you give them your best presence. And they can see that. even though they can't see themselves. They can see their parents or older brothers and sisters or friends. They can see, they can tell, they can tell when somebody's present.

[78:25]

They can see outside that this person's present and this person's not. They notice that kind of stuff. They notice this person's calm. They notice this person lies. They're very external oriented. They are not turned towards their inner life much, usually. It's too much for them to look back there. It's just too, you know, and they've been told, too. They've been taught not to look back there. They've been told, don't tell us about it. They tried, and they mostly were told, you know, don't tell us. And now when they look back down there, they see a lot, but they see a lot of conflict and anger and fear. It's just too much for them, usually. But if you show them that you can be with your pain, then they can see, hmm. And that's what they learn they see this person is this way, this person is that way, and then they orient towards the ones who are more present, and the ones who are present tell them how to do it too. So once they get the picture, and once they're suffering enough, they come for instruction on how to do this.

[79:26]

But they, generally speaking, can't do it. And yet there's also the possibility of a child being... Please bring yourself 100%. On the one hand, there's no self-awareness. They can risk the child being 100% child. I'm not saying this isn't... Oh, the child is 100%. The child is 100%. Child is 100%. Not paying attention to what they're doing. They are completely, radiantly voodoo-natured. But the type of Buddha nature they are is that they have no realization of their Buddha nature because they can't stand to be what they are. They can't stand to celebrate what they are. They can't stand it. But that is exactly who they are and being that way is exactly transcendental freedom. But they have no appreciation of it because they can't attend to it. But they can attend to external things like they can do gymnastics better than any adult.

[80:28]

I mean, in terms of performance. They can totally direct their attention towards external things. With help. With help and encouragement, they can stay riveted to some activities more than any adult can. Partly because their life is simpler in the external world. When they get older, it's harder, for example, for women to pay totally attention to gymnastics and their children at the same time. So there are no, what do you call it, the gold medal gymnast mothers. Especially mothers of young children gymnasts. Because when you're flying through the air, you know, it flips in the air, you think of your kids and that distracts you. So children can pay attention to external things, but they have trouble looking back at what's happening inside. And there's a spectrum. Little kids usually have zero self-reflection. Teenagers have a tiny bit.

[81:30]

And some teenagers have quite a bit. There are exceptions, like Rambo. But then because of that, he blew his fuses when he was a teenager. Some children are self-reflective. And when they are, it is so pure what they see. It's like no prejudice. It's like just clear vision of the inner state. And it's like it's a world wonder when that happens. But most teenagers, most young kids do not have any self-awareness. Yes. Without the process of settling into yourself and being threatened. If you can stay present and have your body open and soft in the face of the anxiety, you come right up to the place and the other. That's the place where the anxiety arises. All of us. Plus. If you can be present with that pain of us threatening you, threatening your individuality.

[82:33]

We're not threatening your life, we're threatening your individuality. All people threaten our individuality. All people say, really, to our individuality. That threatens us. That's our anxiety. All people threaten to make our individuality meaningless, empty. All people threaten to condemn our individuality. All people threaten to end our individuality. Not our life, individuality. If you can feel that, then you can feel the place where actually everybody isn't... The place where they're threatening you is also the place where they support you, not you as an individual, but where they support you as an independent being. The place where you're threatened as an individual is the place where you're created as an interdependent, radiant Buddha. The surface at which you're threatened as an individual is the surface at which you're realized as a Buddha. If you can come up there and meet that... that pain of anxiety, and stay present there and relax there, which is very hard, and you have to express yourself fully to get up to the place.

[83:37]

If you don't express yourself fully, you're withdrawn from the anxiety. If you express yourself fully, that brings you up to the anxiety place, and then stay present and keep expressing yourself and stay relaxed and patient. This is not easy. Full expression, pain, anxiety, threat, relaxation and patience. Okay? Yeah. Then, it can switch from threat to support. And anxiety turns into love. But very hard, you know. You want to, you know, even with your teacher, your loving old man teacher, who's giving you all his attention, you still want to get out of the room. You're expressing yourself So you feel anxiety. And how am I doing? How am I doing? It's too much. I want to get up. Thank you. Bye-bye. It's very hard. Very hard. But that's fine. Patience. [...] It's such a virtue. It really is. But you have to express yourself in order to have something to be patient about.

[84:41]

If you withdraw enough and express yourself little enough, there'll be no pain. You'll just be like a dead little thing there. There'll be no pain, no anxiety to work with. So you've got to express yourself right up to, not bigger than yourself, but right up to what you are, and then stay there for the moment, and then do it again. There's many hands. I think you are next, and then you, and then you. Um, I was just... My experience of little kids is really different than that, because I guess I've just seen so many poems that they've written where they've really expressed hostiles. And I was wondering, when we were in the Zendo, I noticed that the way you asked the kids the question after you read the story, it was the kind of question that wouldn't get that information, because you asked them what they learned. Mm-hmm. And I was... I guess I was wishing... for a question that had to do with, that was from inside the story, you know, that wasn't asking them what about it that was, what did they feel the elephant might have been seeing when they saw the butterfly.

[85:46]

It was something like that. So I guess that's just not my experience. How's not your experience? What you said about kids, that they don't have that power, that most of them don't have that ability for self-reflection, because I guess I... Well, the fact that you've seen what you've seen, I don't argue. But you sent me some of these poems, right? And the reason why you sent me those poems, I think, was because you saw those things. But the poems you sent me were exceptionally rare. That's why you sent them to me. That's why you published the poems, because they're so rare and wonderful. Most children do not talk like those poems you sent me. No, but... My experience with children... But how much time do kids spend writing poems? The rest of the day, what are they doing? That's what I'm saying. It's not their capacity. It's what they're being asked to do. And the question is, is it being elegant? And they have the potential.

[86:48]

It's that it's right there. I mean, not with everybody, but really not with everybody. I think the potential is there with all of them, okay? But my experience is that they, like those kids today, I could have asked them different questions, but whatever question I asked them, I think they would not be able to respond as well as most of you. And it's not because they're dumb kids. It's because my feeling is they are not. I know these kids. These are kids I know. I think these kids do not impress me as very aware of themselves. You know what, though? But the oldest one did. The oldest one did. She's the one who said the thing about getting to know yourself. Yeah? I agree with her in the fact that I think children are aware of themselves. And they know it when grown-ups aren't aware of that. So I don't know about so much self-reflecting, but I have two young children, and I'm quite sure, I think, I'm quite sure, I think,

[87:52]

I believe that they are aware of how they feel, what they think, and what they perceive. And if grownups appreciate that within them, then it stays there, and they are perhaps your exception. I think it's when grownups disregard it and don't believe it or aren't aware of it that they, in turn, begin to doubt. Perhaps maybe they're wrong, maybe it's not there, maybe they're incorrect. But I think it's coming from the outside, and it's something that's learned for them to not be able to express yourself. I mean, if you had asked me what I had learned from that story boom right then, I probably would have giggled also. You know, I think when the personnel there asked about a grown-up and a child, I think it's important that at least it be said to, particularly with children, that their face is here, and if you come up to that face, there's a wonder to be seen that if you don't know it's there and appreciate it, you may not see it.

[89:09]

Yes? and I agree that children are aware of things inside themselves that's why they cry when they're little and I agree that they're taught to not reveal this stuff so I'm talking about instead of talking about what children can be I'm talking about the fact that children are taught that what they're feeling is not worthy to be brought out that they shouldn't bring it out now some aren't, that's true and the ones who aren't do bring it out more that's true My daughter, one time, she was in a gymnastics class, and she was a person who expressed herself a lot, and the gymnastics teacher didn't like her because she would talk a lot during the class to the other kids. So after one class, the teacher said that she did really well, and I said to my daughter, your teacher said you did really well, and she said, yeah, I did what she wanted. She said, but I'm still bad. In other words, I still would prefer talking to the kids.

[90:11]

So she didn't lose track of the fact that she was just doing this because the teacher asked her to. That she really would rather talk. But I think what happens with so many kids is that they gradually lose track of what is too painful to keep thinking, I'd rather do this And this is bad. And so after a while, they lose track of it. That's what I'm saying. And so it's hard to look inside. But you can be brought out. In a poetry class, it's a time to bring it out. A poetry teacher is somebody who wants you to say this stuff. But almost all of the other teachers don't want you to say anything. They want you to sit in your seat And shut up. So I'm not saying it's children's nature to be distracted. I'm saying it's too painful for them to look back and to know about what they don't feel they're allowed to express. It's easier to say, I'm not as nervous and I'm not as upset and I'm not as blah, blah, blah as I am, which if I looked at that, it would be hard for me then to sort of like not act on it, not express it.

[91:11]

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