I've heard that quite a few people in this group have made big efforts to encourage people to vote in hopes that the distribution of power in the government might shift in a direction that would be conducive to protecting living beings from harm. So we've been talking quite a bit about compassion here and the various types of compassion, but they all share the wish that living beings will be protected from harm. So I thank all of you for any work you've done to promote what you think would be for

[01:09]

the protection and welfare of beings, and for those who are not here who are doing so around the country tonight. And then tomorrow other work of compassion will be available again. And the cries for compassion will not stop tomorrow, I predict. And I also predict that those cries will be listened to and will be observed with eyes of compassion. Also today I more or less finished working with my Dharma brother, Paul Disko, building

[02:19]

a coffin. So I have my coffin with me in my car out here. It's quite a nice, very nice coffin. He also is building one. I've been thinking of building one for quite a while. First I was thinking of buying one for various reasons. I wanted to have a coffin ready to go if I should die so people didn't have to go shopping. And so it would be right there and ready to go when I die. And I looked at various ones, you know, online, and I also, I go to funeral, I go to mortuaries quite frequently for ceremonies, and last time I went I looked at what was available

[03:24]

and stuff was okay, but not too good. And some of the stuff was really, you know, just not appropriate for me. I didn't mind spending the money, but I just didn't see anything that really... And then one of the priests that was with me said, we could make some. And so I went back to Green Gulch and asked Green Gulch if Green Gulch would like to, if some people at Green Gulch would like to make a coffin, but the administration of Green Gulch didn't want that to happen. So I thought, well, I'll make it myself, get some help. And, of course, the first person I thought of was my Dharma brother, Paul, who is a very skilled carpenter, but I thought, oh, I'm not going to bother him, he's got so many carpenter projects. But I thought, well, maybe I shouldn't assume that he wouldn't want to do it. So I called him and he said, I've been wanting to do that, thank you. So we built two coffins.

[04:25]

It's in your car. Pardon? It's in your car. It's in my car right out there. You can see it if you want to. And if you don't see it tonight, it'll be at Novo, you can see it there, that's where I'm going to keep it. Did you try it on? Not today, but I tried it on before. Well, you know, I haven't gone, I just, I often go when I'm coming to the yoga room, because the shop's in Oakland. So when I come over to the shop. And so it's been months, you know, one day at a time, or one afternoon at a time. Anyway, that job is done, so now it's ready for various ceremonies, which you're welcome to attend. Some people made faces, but anyway, the reason that I would like to offer myself for these

[05:36]

ceremonies is I'd like people to see some ceremonies that they haven't seen before and see the, yeah, how moving that process can be with a certain ceremonial structure of a number of different parts, which most people haven't seen. I've seen it and I found it quite moving, and so I thought it'd be nice for people to see that, and then maybe some people would like to have that, but most people don't even know about it, so, and one of the things that helps to do ceremonies is to have a coffin, so that you can move the person around in a dignified way. So again, we've been talking about compassion, and one way I've been talking about it is

[06:37]

three types of what I've been calling, maybe you could say, again, sentimental compassion, compassion kind of according to or in accord with Dharma teachings, and great compassion. That's the way some Zen teachers taught in East Asia. That same break, that same delineation is taught among some Tibetan teachers, but also some Indian teachers taught a slightly different version of it, and also in the Vimalakirti Sutra, Vimalakirti talked about the sentimental compassion and great compassion. He didn't talk about the other types so much. So, great compassion is, in that sutra, is when wisdom is united with compassion, and sentimental compassion is when the compassion is not united with wisdom.

[07:43]

So going to the second, and then some people So in this one particular Indian teaching, it taught three types of compassion as that same, first one is sentimental compassion, the next two are compassion for living beings who are qualified by momentariness or impermanence, and compassion for living beings who are qualified by lacking an inherent self, or an inherent existence. So the variation which I'm bringing up tonight is three types of compassion. One where you look at living beings and you have this wish that they be protected and

[08:56]

cared for, but you see them, you don't see them qualified by impermanence or lack of inherent existence. In other words, you see them maybe as permanent, or you see them as having an inherent self-existence. That's the way most people see everything. So when they look at a pot, they see that, or a dog, or a human, when they look they see things according to their sentimental ways of seeing. And they've learned somehow to cherish some or many beings, so because they cherish beings they really feel almost unbearably uncomfortable if those beings are suffering, so they want

[10:01]

those beings, they wish those beings to be free of suffering, all kinds of suffering. Even little sufferings, if you really cherish someone. So the first type of compassion is sometimes called loving-view compassion. You really cherish the person and you want them to be protected from all kinds of suffering. But you have various habitual or sentimental ways of seeing them. But still it has this wonderful wish in it. The other two types, you have the same wish, but when you look at beings, you see them qualified in these two ways, or modified, or illuminated by these teachings. Also, when I see my own suffering sentimentally,

[11:06]

I can do that, right? And if I see other people's, I can do that, but again, seeing, as I mentioned before, seeing a few people, seeing, oh I don't know, anyway, seeing even one that way gets to be, you know, a bummer. It gets heavier and heavier, and the more and more you see of that, the heavier it gets, the more you see people having trouble, the more you feel almost like crushed by it. The Dharma teachings, when you bring them in, they create some, you know, you get some energy circulating back into your life. You still care, you still see the suffering, it's still difficult, but the Dharma makes it possible to keep observing them in this qualified way. And as I said maybe before, which is a little

[12:10]

bit scary, when you see someone and you see that the way they appear as like a unit, independent of all of the things, what you're seeing is an illusory version of a being. And then you're seeing an illusory being who's having a hard time, and you're seeing an illusory version of their difficulty, and also your feelings for them, the way you see your feelings, although you really do have these feelings, your view of them is kind of an illusory version of your feelings. Even your feelings you could be sentimental about and think that the way you care about the person now is the same as the way you cared about them this morning, but it's not. The way we care about beings, our wish for beings' welfare is impermanent. It's a momentary wishing, a momentary wishing, a momentary wishing, a momentary wishing.

[13:15]

Each one's different. And a wishing that's always the same gets really heavy and sticky, but a wishing that's in a sense illuminated or qualified by temporariness or momentariness or impermanence, it's a wishing which stays more alive. This is familiar, but yet I'm saying it a little different. And similarly, yeah, if I care for someone and do not want them to be harmed at all, the teaching of impermanence or momentariness, it isn't like, well, you know, they're suffering now, but it's going to change, so that's going to be a relief. It's not so much that. It's more like the heaviness of your care is somewhat

[14:19]

alleviated by remembering that this person is impermanent, and that heaviness is relieved by remembering that the person is put together by all things, and therefore there's nothing to them other than everything. And you still want them to be free of suffering. So seeing them as illusions, if it makes you care for them less, you've got the wrong idea. The seeing them as illusions frees you from the sticky way of wishing for their welfare. Which is, you know, it's too heavy, that kind. It makes one want to quit caring or

[15:21]

get away. And so this new three that I gave you tonight, in a sense they're all about versions of great compassion, and great compassion can take these three forms, but in a way it can also be seen as not having three forms, it's just actually the way we are. It's that other people's suffering is our suffering. Our suffering is other people's suffering. We include all beings, and we're included in them, and because of that we want them to be safe and unharmed, just like we want ourselves to be safe and unharmed. But in

[16:27]

that view, we have a chance to not have any duality between ourselves and others. And in fact, that's the way we are. It's that I have no dual existence from yours. I have no suffering that's not yours. You have no suffering that's not mine. That's great compassion. But that great compassion can have these three types. And these three types can help us realize the great compassion, which is not any of those three types, but is there with each of the three types, and it's also there with, I don't know how many types of not compassion there are. But there also are feelings where we do not really wish that certain people

[17:35]

would be protected from harm. And that's a real strong thing going on here in our life, right? A lot of people see a lot of people that they do not wish to protect from harm. As a matter of fact, they even wish that those people would be harmed. Great compassion is there too. Not in wishing them to be harmed. No. That's not great compassion. What's great compassion? I told you, what is it? This is the middle of the class. This is the mid-term. What's great compassion? In the case of someone wishing someone ill? Not seeing yourself as separate from them? Or put it positively? Not seeing yourself as separate from them

[18:46]

is not compassion for the fact that you're wishing ill ill. You could have compassion for myself or somebody else. I could have compassion for them. But that's still not quite great compassion. Part of the road, perhaps. Did you say part of the road? Definitely part of the road. Great compassion is that if I have ill will towards somebody, everybody's included in that. And I'm included in everybody, including the people I have ill will towards. That's great compassion. So the great compassion is right there. It's not someplace else, when I have ill will towards someone. But of course it's not the ill will.

[19:49]

So maybe I see some people looking... they look like they're having trouble with what I just said. So tell me about it. Well, I'm having trouble with... I think I didn't have much trouble with the first type of compassion, sentimental compassion. Swallowed up by it, consumed by it, dwelled on it. But I don't see it as just a fundamental problem. Buddha's teaching, generally, the idea that I'm not separate from different beings. It's not the same. It's intellectually, I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't, it's not the same. So the second stage is hard. But the impermanence of each individual suffering.

[21:10]

Yes, impermanent, like they're going to die, but it's not in the sense that it's an illusion that it's not the same thing. Okay, so, would you say that last little bit again? What you're having trouble with? What I'm having trouble with is the notion that in the second stage of Indian, Virginian teaching, that when I see, the second stage is seeing that this person is just, it's a manifest, it's an illusion, and I view them as an illusion also. I understand the words you're saying, but I'm having trouble with that, and seeing why that's a higher level, further along the road to a greater compassion.

[22:13]

Okay, so... I think I got it now, did you hear it? So, the wish for beings to be protected, that's maybe easy to understand as common to various kinds of compassion, okay? And then, having some sentimental or customary way of seeing beings, you can maybe even see that that can be a problem. What you're having trouble understanding is how seeing them with this, according to the Dharma, maybe you're having trouble seeing them that way, or seeing how that's beneficial. And so, if you hear about, if you feel compassion and you hear about the sentimental type, and see its problems, that might be one of the motivations for you to study the teaching of impermanence, because just hearing about

[23:17]

impermanence isn't enough to be able to see people qualified by that teaching, which I think you're saying you don't... So, what is necessary for someone who feels compassion and wishes to learn this second type, one needs to actually understand the teaching of momentariness, and then that understanding will illuminate the way you see people, even if you don't see them that way at the moment, you will be illuminated by the fact that you understand them. You could also actually see them that way, kind of like, oh, I get it, I see it, you could actually see it, and then that would also be an illumination, and you could experience the freedom from the previous kind of compassion. You could feel the lightening, and actually the energizing. You don't lose your wish of compassion, it just becomes energized,

[24:23]

and it might be particularly convincing, the teaching and the benefit of the teaching for compassion might be particularly convincing when you, if you were feeling really heavy about your compassion, like almost ready to collapse, and then you get that teaching and see how it applies and feel energized and encouraged to continue to work on this compassion. And so, if you haven't yet ascertained, you just heard about impermanence, you haven't ascertained it, then you don't have the second kind of compassion yet. And the same with, usually we see people as permanent, I mean, it's conventional. I call you Jeff, but you're not the same Jeff that I used to know. I mean, I'm convinced of that. But there's various

[25:26]

conditions to lead me to keep calling you Jeff, like at the beginning of class you say Jeff again. And so I call you Jeff, but maybe I'm not, I don't think you're the same Jeff that was here earlier. Maybe I think you're a different person who I, by convention, and sort of in cooperation with Nettie and Barbara Joan, I'd say Jeff. But maybe I really don't think you're the same person. And also maybe I don't think I'm the same person, which is also really helpful to me, that I don't see myself as the same person that keeps showing up moment by moment. I'm a new person. Now, there also is a new person who's older than previous persons who are not me, who have the same name as me. So there's a causal relationship but there's a causal relationship not just between me and past rebs, but between me and

[26:30]

all of you. But I don't think I'm you, usually, when I'm meditating on impermanence. I think I'm me, and I might think I'm the same me as I was since I was a little boy, but obviously that little boy is not me, and yet I think it is. It's like one can get over that and be relieved in the practice of compassion. Now, some people do not want to get over that. They want to be connected to the little boy and the little girl. Fine, but if you don't let go of that, that's normal human sentiment. I'm the same person I used to be. That's normal. The second kind of compassion which frees you from the shortcomings of the first entails giving up the idea that you're the same person moment after moment. Not pushing it away or

[27:33]

being mean to it, just let it go. And the more you see the disadvantages of holding on to it, the more you might be willing to let it go. And when you let it go, and you really do let it go and see it, then when you see yourself and other people that way, you will see that it makes you more able to be compassionate than you were able to before. And then the same, another sentimental thing is to think that we are independent. Yes? Did you say dwell on that? No. If you're trying to learn compassion, learn about impermanence,

[28:39]

maybe you would dwell on that teaching. But when you actually understand it, you don't have to dwell on it anymore. You just are a person who understands. Well, let's say that you're trying to understand it and you are trying to focus on the teaching and marinate in that teaching and then open up to the illumination that comes from that study, would you say that that kind of study, along with understanding the discreet, always fresh, always completely new situation that a person is in at the moment, do you also come to understand what structures or what, I wouldn't say continuity, but the intentional, like the forms of character that we can chart over time.

[29:42]

Because you're talking about the freshness, but part of that skillfulness or relating to people or relating to myself or relating to society is knowing that there is a development and there is a pattern of how people show up moment after moment and they're not completely unique every time. Or we can think about the relationships between myself and past self and how they come to be under there. The types of teachings and trainings which would help one understand how things develop

[30:45]

are part of the curriculum of learning about impermanence and lack of inherent existence of things. But it won't be possible to see how things develop really in a deeper way than we already do without understanding these two basic qualities of everything that's developing. All the things that are developing, none of them are inherently existing and then changing into another inherently existing thing. None of them are like that and since they aren't that way, you can't understand how they're evolving if you don't accept that they never in any instance are existing by themselves. So this teaching will also

[31:49]

help you understand how things are developed. Before that, you basically have ideas and stories about things which, you know, if you hold on to them and don't realize that they're momentary and they don't exist on their own, that will not only interfere with your compassion but it will also interfere with the understanding which will illuminate that process. So without giving up the idea that things exist on their own independent of everything else, the compassion is hindered but also the wisdom is hindered. The other way around is when you understand the lack of inherent existence and impermanence, that's a wisdom, that's a knowledge of the way things are. And that can help the compassion but it also can help you understand the way the world arises and ceases. So, yeah, learning these

[32:56]

teachings and actually understanding them is necessary for compassion to evolve but they are wisdom teachings. Question from the audience. Again, so the first way I taught it was three types. The sentimental, which is basically

[33:57]

that you take things to be the way you see them, you think they're actually that way, and you care for things which are appearing to you that way and you don't question or doubt that what you think things are is the way they appear and that the way they appear is the way, that's the normal way of doing things. And also that the people you don't want to help and have ill will towards, that they're actually the way you think they are. That's sentimental ill will. And I don't know if there's any other kind of ill will than sentimental ill will. But there is another kind of compassion besides the sentimental type. So the normal type of compassion is you're dear to me and also you're what I think you are. You're dear to me, I don't want anything bad to happen to you, and by the way, you're what I think you are. And I think you're the cat's meow. I think you're great. The cat's meow is also cat's pajamas. I think you're great. You're the best.

[35:05]

And what I think you are is what you are. And I care for you. That's the first type. And then the second type is, could be more than one type, but basically two types, but it could be more than that. It's when you look at people and the way you see them is illuminated by understanding the teaching. And you're no longer fooled into thinking that the way people appear is the way they actually are, which helps you in your loving care for people and also protects you from the people who you think really would be well served by some ill will. People who you want to, like my granddaughter, hates Donald Trump. She wants him to be killed. That's what people are teaching her. And she's not yet ready to be, a little bit, she's a little bit being taught that what

[36:16]

she thinks things are are not necessarily the way they are. A little bit of that's coming to her. Like I told you a few years ago, I told her that her mother was my daughter. Do you know that one? Yeah. And she was like, no way. What she saw was this person here is my mother and that's it. She's nothing else. That's the way I see her. That's what she is. And if I hear that you're her father, so my granddaughter was very sentimental about her mother. Now they're loosening her up and getting her ready someday to see that her mother's momentary. But she's not anywhere near that yet. So the second type is that when you look at people who you care about, who you cherish them, you think they're the greatest, you look at them and you actually look at them

[37:17]

in an illuminated state. It doesn't make you care about them more necessarily. It just makes you care about them in a way that you will never be derailed, which will never be, you'll never give up. You won't necessarily get bigger or smaller. It's just full, [...] full. No ambivalence about your good wishes. And with this aid of Dharma illumination, this thing unfolds unimpeded. And before you understand the Dharma, it's good to hear about it and learn about it so that that can illuminate this wonderful thing, which is your sincere compassion for them, which hasn't been illuminated yet. And therefore it's somewhat, it's defect, it's defected. And also you could defect from the job. I'm defecting. See you later.

[38:24]

Excuse me, I'm out of here. Because the way I'm seeing you is killing me. I mean, the combination of caring for you and the way I see you is no good. And I got to get out of here. And maybe if I rest, I can come back. And maybe between now and when I come back, there'll be some illumination so that I can do this. So I'm mentioning two Dharma teachings, which are two big ones, impermanence and emptiness are not self. Those are two big ones to study. And when they illuminate your mind, then they illuminate your compassion. Great compassion is always already here. And it's not dualistic. And it embraces all the different, all these other varieties of compassion, but it embraces all the beings who need compassion, who are feeling compassion in a defective way,

[39:28]

in a skillful way, and all those who can feel almost no compassion, it's right there with them too. Because what it is, is it's the way all the people who are learning about compassion are included in everybody else. And everybody else is included in those who are learning about compassion. And the way some people are learning about it is they haven't even heard the word. But they have heard about ill-will, and they're into it. But they're also included in this great compassion. It's just that they're not in these other types of, they don't have these other types of compassion yet. They haven't even started. However, they could actually, it's possible, amazingly, that someone might get them interested in practicing, studying impermanence and emptiness. And if you could get them to study that, that would open the door to them finding compassion.

[40:31]

And then the compassion would be illuminated by what they already learned. So if you already have compassion, if I already have compassion, that's great. Now I need it to be illuminated by the teachings, so that it won't be defective. And so it can open to great compassion, which is already here, for everybody who is a beginner at compassion, intermediate at compassion, and advanced at compassion. And great compassion is already here for people who are not consciously trying to practice compassion at all. Am I talking loudly enough? Hmm? You're really far away, Margie. Would you do me a favor and come closer? Thank you. You can bring your chair, too. Is that like, is that a little bit clearer? Yeah, and this is something to, for most of us, you have to go over this quite a few times to get it,

[41:35]

and then you have to think about these teachings a lot in order for them to actually come into your mind and be the way you see things. Even if you don't see things that way all the time, you sometimes see them that way. Oh, I see, there's improvement. Oh, I see lack of inherent existence. But after you see it, you don't have to, it's already there, even whether you notice it or not. Yes, King? King? Illusions are, concepts are illusions, yes. They appear to have this form, this shape, and they seem to be about something,

[42:40]

but they're not about something, they're an image of something. But, for example, you're not an image, but I have an image of you. You're not a concept, you're a living being, but I have a concept of you. So, if I think the concept I have of you is you, then I'm deluded. But the concept I have of you is an illusion of you. It's an illusory version of you. Is it... It's possible to see an image of illusion, or a concept of illusion, and understand that that's not, excuse me, to see an image of impermanence,

[43:45]

or a concept of impermanence, and understand that's not impermanence, that's an idea of it. But by being mindful of the concept or the image of impermanence, you might actually see impermanence. That's not a concept. In other words, that's not an appearance. You might actually see the reality of impermanence, you know, understand it. Suddenly, like that story comes to my mind often, when a monk goes to visit another monk who is sick, and then the traditional thing is, How is your venerable health, sir? And the monk says, I'm sick. And the other monk says, You're sick. And the second monk says, Oh, I'm sick. So he knew he was sick, but he didn't understand. But he said it. And the other monk said it back to him.

[44:46]

And then he understood, I'm sick in a new way. So, I see you as permanent. And by admitting that I see you as permanent, and knowing that I'm admitting that I'm resisting the teaching, that's almost as good as remembering the teaching, maybe even better. I don't believe the Dharma. I don't believe the Dharma. I don't believe the Dharma. You are permanent. You are permanent. That could be a method that you would use to wake up to, Oh, these people aren't permanent. Wow. And I think I heard that before. But now I understand it. And also, yeah, I feel relieved of a lot of baggage that I was carrying when I was trying to help people. My hands were full of baggage. Now I can put down this permanence,

[45:49]

and now my hands are free to help impermanent beings. How wonderful. I got hands to help impermanent beings. Before, I was carrying the baggage of permanent beings, and I couldn't help them either. Not to mention impermanent beings, who were like, I didn't even know anything about them. But now I put down the baggage, and I can help actual people that need help. The people who need help are the impermanent. The permanent don't need any help. Also, they don't exist. But if they did, they wouldn't need any help. There'd be no way to help them, because they'd be set in stone, like ice nine. The permanent don't need any help. It's the impermanent. It's the fragile living beings. They need help. And who wants to help them? Me. But I'm carrying the permanence of them while I'm trying to help them. Well, that's getting in the way. Just put down the permanence, and say, oh my gosh, now I can really help them.

[46:51]

Because I don't even know how, and therefore I really can. Okay? Kangaroo? Maybe it would help if I changed your names occasionally. Agnes? Yes. I just want to take an example. This afternoon, I had a meeting with somebody who did not have much compassion. He was a bit... He's my boss. He was really not kind with me. I was just telling him that I do some volunteering for a resource group in the company, to do some coaching. So I was more unexplained. And he said, oh, it's great. And I said, maybe 10% of my time. He said, oh, it's a lot. Oh, it's an issue, because I'm so...

[47:54]

My question to him is... I've learned not to take that as an issue for me, as it is my goal. But my question is always, how can I act so that something changes in this perception? In fact, I did not act, I stayed very quiet, because I didn't know how to be. So, how can I act to change someone's perception is kind of related to wishing that they would be free of their perceptions. And if I thought their perceptions... If I thought that them being free of their perceptions

[48:58]

would protect them from harm and also other people from harm, then that would be like one of the basic ways to state what compassion is. Is that someone... I see they're stuck in their perceptions, and I would like to... I wish that they could be free of their perceptions, which I don't think are doing them good, or which I think are causing them stress and suffering. I wish that they would be free of their perceptions and be able to be free of suffering. And... So that's that, that's the wish. Now, the other thing is, the great compassion is that person over there who is not compassionate is me, is included in me. I'm like him.

[50:02]

And that is... That's the real compassion is... And also, I'm like him and he's like me, both ways. And that's in the background or surrounding my wish that he would be free of his perceptions and that also I wish that I would be free of my perception that he's not compassionate. So, whatever he is, I don't know, I think he's not compassionate, but whatever he is, is included in me. That's great compassion. And to open to that, it's helpful if I can do the other two. So great compassion is there whether I'm practicing these three forms or not. So I... If I see someone who appears to be not compassionate, great compassion is right there with me and him,

[51:06]

right there. Great compassion is how he's included in me and I'm included in him and also everybody else. It's not just him and me, it's how everybody else is included in him and he's included in everybody and everybody's... It's how we are working together. That's how we're working together. That's great compassion. To open to that usually requires training in the teaching and also practicing these other forms of compassion. But it's, you know, it's challenging when we... Like, if I see my granddaughter who wishes Donald Trump ill, can I remember... Can my view of her be illuminated by understanding impermanence? Yes. Can I love her just as much?

[52:06]

Yes. Can I be less drained in my... Can my love for her be less drained when I remember impermanence? Yes. I do love her. I do want to protect her from all harm. The more I remember impermanence and I'm illuminated by that, the more that love is alive. Remembering also that she's not over there on her own, that also energizes that form. And those two together free me from the previous type and then I need to let go of those two. So I have an additional teaching. In addition to impermanence and non-self-existence, I have the teaching of great compassion, which is how we're working together. And how that's...

[53:09]

The great compassion is unceasing, unceasing, beginningless, and endless. So unceasing also is beginningless and endless. Omnipresent. So great compassion accepts suffering as omnipresent. It isn't debilitated by omnipresence of suffering. It is the omnipresence and being accepted is very much its nature. And wanting this person to be protected from harm is very similar to wanting this person to be protected from his own perceptions. I know some people who are... The main problem they have

[54:09]

is their own perceptions of themselves. They're tormented by their own perceptions. That's exact... Wishing them to be free of suffering is wishing they'd be free of what they think of themselves. They think they're worthless. That's what they think of themselves. Nobody else in the neighborhood thinks that about them. Maybe there was somebody 20, 30, 40 years ago who said to them, you're worthless. Maybe. But now they're surrounded by people who don't talk like that. There's one person who's still talking like that. This person. And they're actually saying it and they know it's a habit, but they're saying it. I wish he would be free of that way of talking about himself. And what can I do to help? Well, I can be aware that I include them and also that I'm included in them. And I can be aware that they're impermanent

[55:13]

and they don't have an inherent existence. Them not having an inherent existence is very similar to they don't exist independent of me or me of them. That way of being with them can be transmitted to them. They can see how strangely we behave. Like, they tell us, I'm worthless. And we say, You're worthless? And they go, Oh, I'm worthless. I'm mentally ill. You're mentally ill? Oh, I'm mentally ill. Oh, that's your perception? That's my perception. Oh, that's my perception. You know, you get in there. You're working on it. You're not... Disinterested?

[56:21]

No, it's not disinterested. It's more like... It is characterized as, what's the word? Equanimous. Like, you don't get jacked around by people getting healthy and sick. When people are healthy, you wish to protect them. If they're sick, you wish to protect them. If they're healthy, you wish that they'll be healthy again and again and again. If they're sick, you wish that they will be free of sickness. But when you wish them to be free of sickness and they refuse to get well, if your wish that they'd be healthy is illuminated by these teachings, then when they refuse to get well, you won't stop visiting them in the hospital. You won't say, or if they won't take the medicine,

[57:27]

you won't abandon them. So, if we wish people to be well and our wish is illuminated, we won't give up on them. If we wish them to be well and we're stuck in what we think wellness is, we might get stuck into what we think medicine is and what they should do and who they are and who we are. I'm the one who knows. This is the medicine. You should do this rather than you're just there witnessing them and also witnessing that they're impermanent and don't exist separate from you. And if they get well, of course you're pleased. If they don't get well, you're pleased too. Not that they didn't get well. You're pleased that you care about them and that even if they never get well, you just keep caring. And you're so happy that no matter how sick they get, you'll never resent them for getting sicker. Okay?

[58:29]

So, it's not really disinterested. It's more like you're basically always compassionate if you learn this. And people getting well, you don't stop. Okay, you don't need me anymore. And people getting sick, you need me, but only if you get better and so on. Getting all kinds of trouble that way. Yes? So, I often find that this teaching gets in the way of pragmatic decisions. Like, if I have a friend or a client or someone I work with and it's really hard to get along with them, and if I practice this teaching completely, then I can actually get along with them. It seems like things are good, except that I'm not perfect. Did you say, except you're not perfect? Yeah, exactly. So, the next day or the next week,

[59:31]

there I am with that person again and it's really hard to get along with them. It takes a lot of effort to practice all this stuff. And, you know, it takes all my effort. I can't, like, you know, maybe eventually I slip up or I don't make it through the week without avoiding frustration, things like that. But if I'm just practicing this perfectly, then everything will be fine, so I just need to do this practice better. Or the tempting alternative there is like, or maybe I should just fire this person and get someone who's easier to work with. Or maybe I should just leave this friend and see them less often. Oh no, but I should be practicing perfect compassion with them and being intimately helpful with them when they're not taking their medicine and all these things. There's this tension between the reality of like, yeah, if I just did this practice perfectly, then I could be perfectly intimate with everybody.

[60:31]

But, you know, I hit some limits in my abilities to do that. Yeah. So... Do you have permission to give up on some of these relationships? Do you have permission to give up? Well, I don't know who's going to give you the permission. If you do give up on these relationships, you probably will feel really bad. That's... Caregivers often do give up on caregiving. And they can be caregiving for employees or employers. They can... And when we... If you're not a caregiver, then you might not feel so bad if you give up caregiving because you weren't doing it. But if you are caregiving,

[61:32]

if you're trying to be kind to employees or employers, and then you give up on them, that's called... Well, it's called depression or burnout. And you feel bad. But people do that. So that's not the end of the story. People do run away from people that they're having a hard time with. But that's not the end of the story because we are going to... All the people we ever have run away from, we're going to... We're going to come back and work it out with them someday. But, you know, there can be periods where I've had it. I'm out of here and I'm not going to talk to you anymore. And I used to be like really devoted to you and now I don't want to have anything to do with you. That does happen. But it's not exactly that there's somebody in charge of giving you permission to do that. Apparently.

[62:35]

I've watched people who do that and nobody seems to be giving them permission. So they don't feel good about it. We don't feel good about abandoning people. I mean, that's really who we are. Now, if you take enough drugs, you may not notice that, you know, you don't care that you've abandoned a person. So maybe drugs are where you get the permission. So a lot of people do that. They take drugs and then they have permission to not care about people and then they do stuff when they're on drugs that show that they don't care about people when they're on drugs. But then sometimes after they sober up, they feel bad. Yes? I just keep thinking that dependent co-arising is the situation that can really help in the situations of compassion. And I used to be a consultant and we would have clients that we would say,

[63:38]

we're not working with crazy people anymore. We're going to try to find clients that we want to work with. So if dependent co-arising helps me, I'm in a situation, you're being crazy, making demands I can't meet, whatever, and I say, I acknowledge my feelings about this situation, and I act in a way that is honest and truthful and resonates to my own truth and self-compassion for myself in this situation, then I don't feel bad when I say, well, let's see what it all stands. Is dependent co-arising something that fits into the great compassion? As we're experiencing and looking after? Well, great compassion is dependent co-arising. We are dependent co-arising. I am a dependent co-arising and I am dependent co-arising. I'm arising, quote, interdependently with you.

[64:40]

That's what's actually going on. That's our actual life. And, yeah, and that's all just... And great compassion is living that. And also, that process is inconceivable. Great compassion is inconceivable. Dependent co-arising is inconceivable. And we are encouraged to think about both of those things all the time, which includes thinking about all the other types of compassion and all types of cruelty. Yes? I think this might be a very basic question, but if I'm practicing welcoming what is, accepting what is, that's not the whole story. That's the first step, right? It's not the whole story? No, it's not the whole story

[65:44]

because there's also welcoming what isn't. So there's welcoming what is, and then there's also welcoming what isn't. Which is kind of the same thing. It's very similar, yeah. But it is basically the whole story. But wait. What about... There's somebody who's sick. So you're talking about, I wish you'd be well, so you're sick. I wish you'd be well. You're well. Well, I wish you'd be well. But I'm thinking, wait, I'm supposed to be accepting what is. What is is you're sick. Well, if I wish that you'd get well, and by the way, I do, as soon as possible, please. Huh? Did you see that huh? Now when you said huh, was that wishing things to be different? Yeah. It was? Amazing! If I have a wish that you would be well,

[66:46]

like for example now, I had this wish that you'd be well, was I wishing for things to be different? Was I? Did anybody see me wishing for things to be different? Did anybody see... Oh, wait a second. Did you say it wasn't a good example? Yeah. Now when I asked her about, you know, did you just say that was a good example? Did you say that wasn't a good example? Did you hear me say that? Yes. Was I wishing things to be different? Probably not. Was I? Did anybody see me wishing for things to be different? I didn't see it. Was I wishing you well, and good health at the same time? Can't we use a cancer example, or something? Something... Oh, you want somebody... It's just a banana. Oh, I see. I can't wish people who are well to be well? Is that what you're saying? It's just not an issue at the moment.

[67:49]

It's too easy. Well, maybe not for you, but I wish people who are well to be well. Maybe you don't do that, but I do that. Mostly I'm doing that with everybody, which turns out to include healthy people. I don't just wish people who have cancer to be well. I don't. I wish you to be... Do you have cancer? No. Yeah. But is it okay if I wish you well? Even though it's a bad example? Yes. I think... Yeah, and I think it's a good example. I think wishing Tracy well is a good example. I'm trying to set that example. I'm walking around wishing Tracy well. Have you ever noticed me wishing you well? Yes. Was it all right? I'm sorry? Was it okay that I did? Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's working. It's making her worse. Why don't you talk about kids? Why don't you talk about Tiffany Wallace?

[68:53]

What? Yeah, by definition, you're assuming you don't need to make some difference. You just need to stay well as she already is. No. I do not wish her to stay the way she is. Definitely not. What? I do not wish her health to stay the same, and I do not wish it to be different. I'm wishing for neither. Honestly. I do not wish for... Honestly. I do not wish for her health to stay the same. I do not wish your health to stay the same. I do not wish my granddaughter's health to stay the same. I don't do that kind of wishing. I don't wish for you to be better, and I do not wish you... Guess what? What? I don't wish you to be worse. I don't. I really don't. Does my granddaughter wish somebody to be worse? Yes, she does. Do I wish her to be different? No, I don't. Do I wish her to wake up? Yes.

[69:54]

Is that different? No. She doesn't understand that, and maybe some of you don't. I'm wishing you to be what you are, which is well. If you have cancer, I wish you to be well. Not different. At the moment you have cancer, whatever kind of cancer you have, I wish you to be well. At that moment. Then the next day, the next moment, you have a different cancer, and I wish you to be well again. And then they come in, and they say, you don't have cancer anymore. Somebody says that. Then maybe they know about such things. I don't. They say, you don't have cancer anymore. And then, does my wishing you well stop when you stop having cancer? No. But it's the first wishing you well when you have cancer. Are you accepting that I have cancer? That's what I'm not understanding. So if I'm sick, I think that the stability of my well-wishing is supported by me accepting the omnipresence of suffering. If I don't accept

[70:57]

the omnipresence of suffering, it makes it harder for me to wish everybody well. But I don't want to stop wishing people well, which is loving kindness. I don't want to stop wishing that people were free of harm, which is compassion. I don't want to stop those practices. And if I do not accept that suffering is present all the time, that lack of acceptance will undermine my practice of compassion. But I do want to wish people well, even if they're really healthy, even if they're rich. Of course, if they're poor. Of course, if they're sick. You don't have a problem with that. But I'm not wishing that sick people would be different from the sick person they are right now. They might be doing that. I'm here to set another example, which is I wish you well, and that won't be an improvement.

[71:58]

You are perfect right now, and I wish you well right now, and it's not going to be an improvement if you get well. And if you don't get well, it won't be like, hey, you didn't improve, I'm out of here. I'm here to improve you, and if you don't get well, I'm going to find some people that can improve. So I've been coming here for quite a while. And I'll just keep coming. If you improve, I'll still keep coming. If you don't ... Yes? Well, I was just feeling what that would be like. It seems like you're really meeting someone wherever they're at. You're willing to be wherever they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're meeting people where they're at. But the nuance of the way she said that, it was almost like this is a special situation that you learn how to meet people where they're at.

[72:59]

It's like we have to learn that, but that's the way we already are. We're already meeting people where they're at. That's our life. We're already doing this, and they're meeting us where we're at. That's great compassion. But somehow we have to train to realize that that's reality. So let's train. Let's train at meeting each other where we're at, which means I meet you where I'm at. I'm here, and this is where I meet you, and I meet you where you are. You're there, and we're together. We meet here. Let's do that, and let's notice when we have some problems sometimes, like we want to fire some ... like sometimes some of you want to fire me because I'm a little bit difficult, or maybe I'm really difficult. But some of you actually keep me around and don't fire me because I'm difficult. So some people just love

[74:02]

to have difficult people around so I get to stay. Other people would like to fire me, but they haven't figured out how to do it yet. This is all part of the deal of meeting where we're at. That's reality. I say that that's reality, and great compassion is that. Thank you. You're welcome. Tracy Apple, who I wish well, and I hope I never stop, and I also believe that this well-wishing of you really has no beginning, and it will never stop, but I hope I realize that with you. Okay? Okay? Thank you so much.

[74:59]

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