I heard my teacher advise that when practicing Zazen, we have an understanding that we are both an ordinary person and Buddha. So we sit. We Zen students train ourselves by the practice of sitting. We enter into the practice of sitting at our place, with the background understanding that we are ordinary. and inseparable from Buddha.

[01:13]

With that understanding we can sit like the Buddha sits. Do the same sitting that the Buddha sits with no seeking, giving up seeking and just sitting. This is to sit in the practice of the Buddha without defiling it, without harming the practice in any way.

[02:32]

said that to Huay Nong. He said, I don't say that the Buddha cannot be verified in practice, just it cannot be defiled. And the great teacher Pue Nung said, this non-defilement has been protected and guarded, maintained and so on by all the Buddhas. I'm like this now and so are you. We're practicing together without defiling the practice. There are so many ways to defile it, but we're not.

[03:46]

Nanyue had many great disciples, and one of them, as I mentioned before, was called Matsu. Ox. Ox master. Is an ox a neutered bull? Or can it be a cow too? Hmm? It's a neutered bull? So, anyway, Matsu. Somehow he got that nickname that wasn't his regular name. Now, in the usual record of the ancestors, under the great teacher Nanyue, it has a story

[05:07]

about Nanyue teaching Matsu. Matsu was always sitting in meditation. Now, Dogen Zenji says that he understands that after Matsu had formally received the mind seal of the Buddha from his teacher, Nanyue, after that he was always sitting, probably before too, but anyway, that after receiving the mind seal, Matsu sat in meditation all the time. And one day, Inanye went to Matsu and said, worthy one, what are you figuring to do sitting in meditation? Simple question among great practitioners of the way.

[06:49]

What are you figuring to do sitting in meditation? What are you calculating to do? And Matsya said, I'm figuring to make a Buddha. Matsu died 1,010 years ago. And today, if you're asked, what are you figuring to do sitting in meditation, you might hesitate to say that you're figuring to make a Buddha.

[07:55]

Because you might think, I would be seeking something. I would be trying to attain something. I would be not just sitting, but trying to get something. So I'd better not say that. especially if you see what's going to happen next. So then Nanyue saw a tile, I guess, sitting nearby, and he went and picked up the tile, probably a roof tile. Might have been a floor tile. And he went over and sat near Matsu and started polishing the tile. And Matsu says, what are you doing, teacher? Master, what are you doing? And Nanyue said, I'm polishing this tile to make a mirror.

[08:59]

And Matsu said, well, how can you make a mirror out of a tile? And Nanyue said, how can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation? How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile? Well, how can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation? And Matsu said, then what is right? And Nanyue said, when a person is driving a cart and the cart doesn't move, should you beat the cart or beat the ox?

[10:24]

Matsu had no reply, didn't say anything. Nanyue said, are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated Buddha? Are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated Buddha? You have been warned. This question may be asked again. Do you remember now?

[11:43]

Get your answers ready. And then let them go. If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still. If you're studying seated Buddha, Buddha is no fixed mark, has no characteristics. If you're studying seated Buddha, you're killing this Buddha, or this is killing Buddha. If you grasp the mark of sitting, you're not reaching its principle.

[12:47]

This is part of a letter I sent to somebody I kept a copy of it for myself. Worthy one, what are you figuring to do sitting there in meditation? Is there some figuring above and beyond sitting meditation?

[14:19]

Is there no path to be figured outside of sitting meditation? Should there be no figuring at all? Is Nanue asking, what kind of figuring is going on right in the very moment of sitting meditation? One might think, hey, I have enough problems sitting in meditation.

[16:04]

Don't ask me any more questions. And you know, if you've got enough problems in sitting meditation, then I have no questions for you. But if you have time to do anything besides having problems with sitting meditation, if you have any spare time on the cushion to think about anything, to think about anything but sitting meditation, then how about listening to these questions? Substitute those for whatever else you're thinking about. But if you're totally stopped, totally blocked, nothing else happening for you, you're just overwhelmed by sitting meditation, that's all that's going on, and you don't need anything else to deal with because that's all you can deal with.

[17:05]

Okay? That's it. That's it. That's the real dragon. But if there's anything, if you have anything, any energy, any time, any space, any thoughts besides just sitting, then use those thoughts to examine the sitting, what you happen to be doing. You don't have to go any place to look for it. It's right there, right? Just check it out. What is it? What kind of sitting is it? Is there any figuring going on, any calculation, any intention? And what about that figuring?

[18:12]

Maybe you're not figuring. Well, what is it then? Is there no figuring over and above the sitting? Fine, that's it then. Is there some figuring over and above the sitting? What kind is it? What's it about? Is there a Buddhist practice that's other than this figuring or this sitting? It's right there, just tell me about it. Tell me about it. Matsu says, I'm figuring.

[19:19]

He was figuring, I guess. He wasn't just sitting, I guess. There was figuring there, too. Or maybe when there's just sitting, there is figuring right at the same time. Anyway, he said, I'm figuring to make a Buddha. That's what he said. That was the type of figuring he was doing. Could you imagine that you might be sitting, figuring to make a Buddha while you were sitting? Have you been told not to do that? Did Dogen tell you, don't figure to make a Buddha? Did he? In Fukon Zazengi, they said, don't figure to make a Buddha, or don't plan, what does he say? Have no designs, design. What are you designing to do sitting in meditation?

[20:21]

I'm designing to make a Buddha. That's what Matsu said. Now Dogen says, don't design to make a Buddha. Does he mean... just sit so completely that you have no, there's nothing, all the designs are the designs of sitting. That's all, the only design you have is the design to sit. The only figuring you're doing is you're figuring to sit. No, nothing beyond that. All your figuring, all your designing, all your scheming, all your planning is to sit right now. Is that what he's suggesting? I wasn't asking you You know, the great teacher Dogen said that it would really be good to clarify and penetrate the meaning of the words, I'm designing to make a Buddha.

[21:37]

He said, you know, clarify and penetrate these words. I'm designing to make a Buddha. I'm figuring to make a Buddha. And when he said that, I thought, wait a minute. Didn't you say in Phukan Zazengi, stop investigating words and chasing after speech? Didn't you say that, teacher? And now you're saying, investigate and penetrate these words, clarify these words. What's going on? And I looked at Fukan Zazengi to make sure that was what it said, and it does. But you know, in an earlier version of it, earlier version of the Fukan Zazengi, instead of saying, stop investigating words and chasing after speech, he says, reverse.

[22:49]

Reverse. intellectual investigation, intellectual study and chasing after words. Reverse it. So in the one we chant, the one we usually read, it says, stop, cease, give up intellectual study and chasing after words or speech and learn the backward step Reverse this study and learn the backward step. Reverse your usual way of study. But keep studying. But reverse it. Don't do it the way of trying to get something by this investigation.

[23:50]

Clarify these words, please. Please. What words? The words of Matsu. I'm figuring to make a Buddha. Penetrate these words. And you can penetrate them any way you want to. You can clarify them any way you want to. One way you can clarify them is say, I'm going to study my own figuring. That's the way I'm going to clarify it. And after I figure out my own figuring, I'll tell you all about Matsu. There are, what do you call it, eight million stories in the Naked City. This is just one of them.

[24:52]

You can study the figuring of making a Buddha of the ancient matter, of the ancient master, in many, many ways. But are you studying that? Is your studying of your own figuring in your own sitting happening? Are you checking it out? Is there seeking there? Is there greed there? Is there hate there? Is there confusion? Or is there simply figuring to make a Buddha? Or is there figuring to make sitting? Sitting. What is it? That's all. Is any figuring going on while you're sitting? Does anybody know what it is? If you examine the various possibilities of somebody else's zazen practice, you might find out your own.

[26:40]

Maybe somebody else's zazen practice is really yours. If you've already thoroughly examined your own, then let's go on and find out about somebody else's. If you haven't examined your own, or if you're not interested, maybe you'd be interested to actually, like, get into and actually understand the Zazen practice of a great master. Wouldn't that be... Well, wouldn't it be something? Now that I'm thinking of it, I think, how cool to actually find out what... Matsuzazen practice was, and also Nanyue's, and also Suzuki Roshi's, they're dead. Is it possible to find out what their practice was? If so, how would you find out?

[27:46]

I say you'd find out by Simply investigating every possible thing it could be. And maybe find out even before you've finished the list. This is called... becoming intimate with the teaching. For example, what does it mean to speak of making a Buddha? Who knows if he really said that, but it doesn't matter whether he said it or not. Just what does it mean that somebody said he said making a Buddha?

[28:50]

What does it mean to speak of making a Buddha? Does it mean to make a Buddha by a Buddha? To use a Buddha to make a Buddha? Does it mean to make a Buddha of a Buddha? Does it mean to make a Buddha for a Buddha? Does it mean to make a Buddha on a Buddha? Does it mean to make a Buddha for the people and by the people and of the people? Does it mean that one or two faces of Buddha emerge Well, you know, what do you think?

[30:03]

Let's have some other possibilities here now that we're rolling along. What does it mean to speak of making a Buddha? Now you can talk, Kevin. Yeah, now you can talk, but you don't. Learn the backward step, Kevin. Two steps backwards. You didn't say Captain May I. I mean Mother May I. How many people learned Mother May I? How many learned Captain May I? Yeah, it looks like only in Minnesota they say captain. We didn't realize.

[31:07]

In Minnesota, it's captain. We didn't realize the power of the matriarchy. That's why we had to come to California. Is that it then? Yes. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. What you're talking about is exactly what I've been struggling with today, with planning. And I'm looking at the storms of planning.

[32:07]

The storms of planning? Yeah. And looking at how to be still as this is going on. And seeking to be still as this is going on. Seeking? Seeking. Seeking. And being still. And wondering how to be still. One, to be still, not sitting. Literally sitting. Being still. Good. Good. Buddhists are Buddhists.

[33:36]

They may not necessarily notice that they're Buddhists, right? So would it maybe have been a practice of a Buddha to go, wow, I wonder what is it like to be free? Because there's something. that encouraged the historical Buddhists, as they say, to go forward. Something took him out of his home and asked him to look for a way out, a way from suffering. What do I think? About what?

[34:36]

What do I think? I think they're sweet. But not to the point. But sweet. That's not... That's just not... I didn't say... You say, why not? You just asked me what I thought. That's just what I thought. Okay? How is it that that's not the point? I just didn't think it was. Tell me how it is. Then I... Buddha? Pardon? There's Buddha? There's Buddha? Yeah. That's how it is. Now I see. Thank you. Yes? You would? Come back tomorrow. Tomorrow is the whipping the ox or whipping the cart.

[35:48]

Okay? Okay. Tomorrow will be that. That will be tomorrow. Whipping the cart. Whipping the ox. What are you going to do? You can start working on it now, but we've got some other stuff to deal with now. Yes? Wait a second. Was that a question? Were you seeking something? Were you? Okay. Just now when I asked you the question, was I seeking something? Huh? You believe so? You would believe so? I wasn't seeking anything. When I just said I wasn't seeking anything, that was the same as me asking you that question. I wasn't seeking. But you can seek in a question, but you can also ask questions as statements without seeking.

[36:51]

YOU CAN END YOUR LIFE WITH A QUESTION. LIKE, QUESTION, THAT'S IT. I'M NOT SEEKING ANYTHING FROM THE QUESTION. YOU'RE SITTING. YOU CAN SIT. YOU CAN SIT AS A QUESTION. YOU KNOW? A MOUNTAIN CAN BE A QUESTION. IT'S NOT SEEKING ANYTHING. BUT YOU CAN SEEK THINGS WITH QUESTIONS, OF COURSE. BUT YOU CAN ALSO ASK A QUESTION THAT'S NOT SEEKING ANYTHING, THAT'S A WAY OF LIVING. Just like now, I'm making these statements. Do you hear them? They're questions at the same time. I made two statements just then. Those were questions for me. But I'm not seeking something in my question. It is possible to learn how to make statements as questions and how to make questions without seeking, to make questions as a way to be, in your case, who you are, a person who asks questions.

[38:24]

It's a complete picture. But it's also possible to ask a question and have it be incomplete and feel like, you know, there needs to be an answer for this question to have been made. But you don't have to see the world that way. You can see the totality of the world as the question arises. The whole universe expressing itself as your question. Or you can say, the universe is missing something at this moment. It needs this answer. It's seeking something outside itself. Which question?

[39:25]

Children often ask why. Yeah. And at a certain point... Huh? They aren't seeking anything? Maybe they're not. That's your kid, I think. Some other kids, they ask why because they want to get control of their mother. It's the way that they whip their mother. Why, why, [...] why? They don't really care about the answer. They just want to just keep her on the line. But not your daughter.

[40:26]

You need more kids. You're going to have them soon, don't worry. Yes? I base my life on Buddha. I base my life on sentient beings. I base my life on mine. Yes. Sounds right. You can drop that approach. Something else? I mean, I'm asking myself a lot now about not saying later on, you know, you might reveal. Yeah.

[41:31]

Have you investigated thoroughly into making a Buddha? Please do. Please do. Unless you have something else that's more pressing. Do you accept the pressing? Do you accept being impressed? How about now? Thank you. See, what time is it? It is getting close to 11.

[42:33]

That means the kitchen's going to leave. Okay, so there it is. You get kind of, you got something to work on there. It's called the mind of the ancient Buddhas. You know, walls, tiles, pebbles, grasses, trees, you know that one? What are you figuring to do sitting in meditation? Okay? Matsu had this thing. He was figuring to make a Buddha. How about you? And how about him? You can find out the answer to both those questions without seeking anything. You can investigate thoroughly what you're up to, and what he was up to, and what he is up to, and what he will be up to.

[43:42]

Figuring to make a Buddha is prior to making Buddha. Figuring is subsequent to making Buddha, and figuring is at the very moment of making Buddha. How about you? Is that the way it is for you? Or is it different for you? So I'll let you check it out. Or not. And I will too. May our intention

[44:37]

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