May I speak about the issue of being a disciple? Yes, please do. Have you heard the story about Suzuki Roshi using the expression, my disciples at Tassajara, during a talk, and afterwards I asked him about it? You want to hear it? Linda's heard it, right? Should I tell it again? Yeah. Once upon a time, 44 years and one month ago, I was at Tassajara. And the founder of Tassajara was giving a talk. And he said something about his disciples

[01:09]

my disciples, blah, blah, I don't remember. But when he said it, I thought, I wonder who his disciples are. So after the talk, I said, Roshi, you mentioned your disciples in the talk. Who are your disciples? And he said something like, I don't like this. But this is the way my mind works. It sees two kinds of students at Tassajar. One kind are here just for themselves. The other kind are here to help others. Those are my disciples. So I asked them about it, what it was, and then he told me that.

[02:10]

But I didn't know which category I belonged in. I wondered. And I continued to wonder. I think I wanted to be his disciple, but I never actually knew, and I don't know now if I am. He said to me one time, you are my disciple. But even though he said that, I still don't know if I am. It's not like I didn't believe that he said that, and it's not like I didn't believe that he was a wonderful opportunity for non-grasping.

[03:32]

I kind of felt this nice feeling when he said it, but I wasn't sure that I should, what do you call it, go for that bait. So even though he said it one time, I still don't know if I am. Can you hear that? I don't. And I still would like to be. I would also like to be a disciple of Dongshan. I have attained the state of half agreeing with Suzuki Roshi and half not. Some of the stuff that I read And certainly some of the stuff people tell me, I half agree with and half don't.

[04:37]

Or I don't agree with, or I do. But on the average, about half. Maybe more than half. Anyway, I still want to be his disciple. And also, did you hear the story about one time he gave a lecture and said he wasn't enlightened? Did you hear that one? A little bit. A little bit? Want to hear it again? One day he said, when he was giving a talk at Sokoji Temple over in Nippantown, before we moved over to 300 Pei Street, he said, I'm not enlightened. But I still wanted to be his disciple. Now you might say, well, if you're not enlightened, you are. But I didn't even know if I wasn't enlightened. I thought maybe I wasn't. But anyway, I did want to be, and I do want to be his disciple, but I don't know if I am.

[05:39]

And the next day? It wasn't the next day, it was about a week or so later. And he said, in another talk, he said, I am Buddha. Good. That's better. Still I didn't know... I wasn't thinking in terms of am I his disciple or not at that time. I actually didn't think of it until he said it. Like, who his disciples were. I think I wanted to... I wanted to be with him in such a way that he would realize that I'm there. just in case he wanted to offer me something. I put myself in his life so that he wouldn't miss me, just in case he wanted to offer me something.

[06:46]

I wasn't exactly trying to get something, but I knew I needed something. So I put myself in position so that if he thought I needed something, he could give it to me. And I could tell after a while he knew I was there. Partly because he would try not to run into me. I could tell he was maneuvering around me. So I could tell he knew I was there. Kind of like a cloud chamber kind of a thing. And I don't know if I... am or was his disciple, but I think he appreciated somebody putting himself in his way. Sort of like, I think he appreciated that I was making myself part of his life. I think he really appreciated that. I think he wanted more people to do it. I don't know.

[07:54]

I don't know the reasons why I got the chance to put myself in a place where he would see me and have to deal with me. But it happened. It seemed like it happened. And then since I knew he was there, if he didn't pay attention to me, attention to something else. So I could deal with that. It wasn't like, well, he might have said something to me if he knew I was there, but he didn't know I was there. No, he knew I was there. And then I could see how I related to the way he related to me, because I was there to relate to. One of Suzuki Roshi's teachers was his second teacher.

[09:07]

His first teacher, he became a successor to. His second main teacher, he didn't become a successor to, but he studied with him for a long time. His first teacher was Gyokujun Son in Daiyosho, and he lived in the same temple. Joko Jonson died. Well, actually, Joko Jonson moved out of the temple and went to another temple to become the abbot. And Suzuki Roshi stayed in that temple and became the abbot of his teacher's temple. So they weren't living together right to the end of Joko Jonson's life. But they lived together for a big part of Suzuki Roshi's young years. Then after Gyokujo and Soen died, Suzuki Roshi studied with an unnoted teacher who lived nearby his temple named Kishizawa Ion Roshi.

[10:15]

Kishizawa Ion Roshi was an unnoted scholar of the Treasury of True Dharma Eyes by the ancestor Ehe Dogen. So in English we call his most original work, which he wrote in Japanese, we call it the Treasury of True Dharma Eyes or Shobo Genzo. And Kishizawa Ion, Suzuki Roshi's second main teacher, was a scholar extensive text. Treasury of true Dharma eyes. Kishizawa Ion also was a scholar of the traditional ceremonies to practice intimate entrustment.

[11:25]

There are ceremonies for practicing intimate entrustment. For example, We have the ceremony of going into the room, going into the teacher's room and meeting the teacher. That's one of our ceremonies. And sometimes we call that ceremony going into the room, and sometimes we call that Doku means alone or solitary. And san, in this case, means meeting. So it's a meeting alone, or it's a solitary meeting. So it could be understood as that you're going into the teacher's room and meeting the teacher alone. Or another understanding, you're going in there, and when you get in there, there's only one person there.

[12:29]

You and the teacher is one person. So we do that ceremony of intimate entrustment of the teaching of suchness where there's two people who are one. And another ceremony, which is also done going into the room, is the ceremony called of transmitting the Dharma. And Kishizawa Ion was an expert on the traditional And part of the procedures is certain documents. And in one of the documents, there's a diagram. And the diagram says, the iron person lives here. The iron person is somebody who walks along

[13:35]

The iron path, which is thousands of miles long, and the iron person, no matter what happens, they keep going along the path, the bodhisattva path. They don't give up, no matter how difficult it is. They keep going on the path. liberating all beings, the iron person. So, Suzuki Roshi's second teacher, Kichijo Ion, heard his teacher's teaching about this iron person. Now, his teacher said to him, at least on one occasion, you are not my disciple. And do you know what Kishizawa Ion said when he said, you're not my disciple?

[14:44]

You don't? Do you know what he said? No. Kishizawa Ion said, why aren't I your disciple? And his teacher, Suzuki Roshi's second teacher's teacher, who told him he wasn't his disciple, said, because when you walk by me on your way to the toilet, you don't bow to me. Or if I'm lounging around, you don't bow to me. That's why you're not my disciple. And then later, Kishizawa Ion heard his teacher talking about the iron person, and he was really moved by his teacher's teaching. So he had this idea, I would like my teacher to calligraph, Iron Person lives here for me.

[15:51]

But in that intimate entrustment between them, which involved the teacher saying to the student, you're not my disciple, in that intimate conversation they were having, whenever The disciple asked for something, the teacher did not give it. So Kishizawa Ion thought, if I ask him for this calligraphy, he won't give it to me. I just thought of a funny thing, which I'm going to tell you about. So then there was a Kishizawa Aeon's teacher, whose name was Boksan, had a friend, an older man. And whatever that older man asked for, he always gave it to him.

[16:59]

Now, I can't say whether that older man was his disciple or not. I can't say. I don't know. But the story is that whatever that person asked for, Bok San gave it to him. So, Kishizawa Ion went to the old man and asked him to ask his teacher for the calligraphy. Iron person lives here. And the old man said, OK. And he went to Bok San, and he said, would you calligraph Iron Person lives here for me? And Bok San said, it's not for you, is it? And the old man confessed. And then Bok San started to cry.

[18:03]

and said, my disciple has understood. But I still don't know. I still don't know. But I like the story. This is another story that I don't know about. that I tell you, so you can not know about it too, especially if you like it, especially if you love it, to take care of it, because now you have it. However, you may not remember it, so I can talk to you again There's many more stories about this intimate entrustment, and I would be happy to tell you more.

[19:39]

But... I see someone asking a question. Yes? This might be an intimate entrustment, too. It might be. Actually, it will be, but I don't know if we can see it. When you said this morning that you are not interested in being on YouTube, on having these clips on YouTube, I totally agree with you. And then when I sat down this afternoon, I thought, why not? And I would appreciate if you would share with us what's your thinking on why. No, at first it seemed so obvious, no, that'd be terrible, but as we're increasingly living in an Internet-ish world, I'm wondering, are you looking backwards to your roots in the know, or are you looking forward, or at this kind of gut level?

[20:42]

Why not? Well, a while ago, a whole weekend was videotaped, and it's now on YouTube. And also, at least one other Dharma talk, was videotaped, and it's on YouTube. So there already is a lot of stuff on YouTube. So more could be done, and it could be marketed better. And then you get more hits, and so on. But anyway, yeah. And so there's already a lot out there. But I can also see the potential opportunity for there to be more video recordings, but whether they should all be on the internet now, I'm not sure. That's what I'm asking. What are you not sure about? What's the downside? What are you worried or thinking about? Why not put every single thing on? I don't know. I don't know why not. I don't really need to have a reason for when I don't feel comfortable about something.

[21:48]

I don't even know why I don't feel comfortable. Some people might think, whoopee! I get to be on YouTube. So it's a not comfortable? It's a not comfortable. It's a not knowing whether it's beneficial. But the first thing I agreed to, with this big thing, like this is quite simple. The first thing I agreed to, when I agreed to it, MIPL made a big effort to do it. So then I thought, OK, let's make it available, rather than just have it be archival. But now that I see the stuff. I think, well, that's enough for starters. And it's so much, actually, that almost nobody will watch it. But if it's packaged differently into little, like, three-minute things, people are more interested in the three-minute things than many-hour things. Rebecca Anderson's greatest hits.

[22:51]

So anyway, I'm just not... I'm not yet comfortable with all these things going out there. And also, I'm speaking to mostly adults here. This talk is not so good for children, and children will be able to see it. And the other talks also were not as intimate as this situation. I'm exposing you to doubt. The midnight is the midnight of doubt, but the truth shines in the dark of doubt. It doesn't shine in the light of certainty. The certainty shines, the certainty of the darkness is what I'm talking about today. And the song is by somebody who

[23:54]

half agreed, did not completely agree with his teacher, because that's not really intimate entrustment. So I also don't agree completely with Suzuki Roshi, and I can't even figure out how not to agree with him completely, because I don't understand him completely. But given my understanding, I half agree and half don't agree, or 86% agree. and 14% don't, or whatever. That's me. Maybe somebody could completely agree with them and still be grateful, you know, and be intimate. I don't know. I don't know. But that's not my understanding. And that wasn't Dungshan's understanding. I don't think, but I don't know.

[25:00]

It seems like doubt is where the teaching of suchness is shining bright. In doubt, in not being completely sure, in being a human being is where it's at. But human beings have doubts. If you have no doubts, I think you're not fully alive. Like some people, actually might have no doubts about the teacher, and then they get to know the teacher, and then they have doubts. Or then they get to know the teacher, and they have less doubts, and they get less and less, and then they finally get to a place of really, really intimate, and then they have doubts. Perhaps you can imagine that if you were devoted to a teacher, and everything you asked for she didn't give you, you might feel some doubts. And that's the environment of a full human being.

[26:09]

So, I believe in the teaching of suchness. I believe in the intimate communication which is Buddha's and ancestors. I believe in Buddha's ancestors I believe in Buddha Ancestors, which is belief in intimate communication. I believe in intimate communication as a real life. And I think that intimate communication has lots of difficulties and doubt. It has faith, too, because you're not going to even get anywhere near intimacy without faith. With faith, you can get close enough to not be sure, to have doubts, and to be troubled by them, not just like, oh, I have a doubt. Actually, for it to get you, to be gripped by the doubt, to have it be the way you are.

[27:17]

One of the main things about me is this doubt. And you get there by believing in the relationship, the communication. So I believe in that intimacy and I believe in transforming that belief through the intimacy. So I believe in the teaching of suchness. I believe in conversations so that my belief will change, not to change from belief to disbelief, but to bring that belief into the crucible of doubt and bring it to completion. Changing the way I believe. I now believe in the teaching in a certain way, and that way I do not want to get stuck in. I don't want to be a disciple of my own beliefs.

[28:21]

But I need a conversation to help me. I need some people to disagree with me. And I do have some people disagreeing with me. Maybe I need more than I've got, but I've got some. I don't think I have too much disbelief, too much disagreement. I don't think it's gone over the top. I don't feel like the amount of disbelief and disagreement has gotten to be excessive. I think it's somewhere between perfect and not enough. Could I add a further question at the risk of being impertinent? A further question at the risk of being impertinent? I'm longing for you to teach us something about how to have a powerful relationship, or not, with this thing that's in our culture now, which wasn't in Damsha's day.

[29:33]

So I don't know how to respectfully relate to it. And you're talking about intimacy, and I want to hear you say you don't think the internet can be used that way, or maybe it can. I just feel like this is... It's this whole big world that affects me, my work, a lot of us, and I just want you to help sort it out, if you know anything. Oh, I do know. OK. The way of relating to the internet is don't turn away from it or touch it. Don't turn away from it or touch it. So I have a meeting I've been invited to next Monday, which is talking about how to market Zen Center teachings on the internet. What is that called? They call it marketing language. To discuss marketing language for the Zen Center offerings on the internet, I'm going to go and listen to that. And my job will be to listen and see if I can be upright while I'm listening.

[30:39]

And listening to what people are... their language, but also listen to how I feel. to listen to me feel uncomfortable about certain language. Like marketing? Like marketing. And like not marketing. Do not market! How do I... It isn't like we turn away from the word marketing. No, we don't turn away from it. And we don't touch it. We don't turn away from the internet. We don't turn away from the 21st century. But we don't touch it either. We are... present and upright, witnessing it with compassion. And from there, we enter into the midnight of the situation. And we are guided to say, I don't know what. I'm uncomfortable with that language. And then people say, well, thank you for your contribution.

[31:42]

And then they go ahead and use the language I'm uncomfortable with. Or maybe I don't say anything because they don't ask me, and I just sit there and feel uncomfortable. Or maybe they say, how do you feel? And I say, uncomfortable. When I say uncomfortable, I'm looking to myself to say, are you leaning away? Are you turning away from it when you say uncomfortable? Are you touching it when you say it? That's my job. Their job is to listen to me, to question me, or to ignore me. My job is, no matter what they're doing, to work within, like a fool, and deal with how I feel, what I'm thinking. But my job is not to believe my thinking or disbelieve my thinking. My job is to remember that my thinking and your thinking is like a great mass of fire.

[32:46]

inconceivably wonderful, but the truth of it will be revealed when we have the proper practice with it. So, I'm gonna go to the meeting, probably, and listen to this, and feel things, and think things, and I might not say anything, but they'll probably ask me at the end of the meeting, if I don't say anything, if you have anything to say, and I'll say, Ask Tracy. I have a headache today. Ask Tracy. Yes? I just want to thank you for that very generous answer. You're so welcome. I was happy to give it, and I really appreciate your generous questions. And there's Johnny and Kathy. Johnny. Thank you, Gautam. And Eric. This morning as you were speaking, and just now too, I wanted to suspend the thinking about agreeing or disagreeing, because I think wholehearted listening suspends agreeing or disagreeing.

[34:01]

Yeah, Dung Shan half agrees and half does not agree, but that's his expression. of dispensing with both. Yes. And the intimacy is in the wholehearted listening, I think. Yeah. And listening to agreeing and disagreeing. But when he was listening, he didn't just always agree with his teacher. Right. But he didn't cling to not agreeing, and he didn't cling to agreeing. Therefore, he sings his song. agreeing and disagreeing can actually stop listening or you can listen to agreeing and listen to disagreeing and listen to them and let go of them while you listen so you can hear the next agreeing and disagreeing how wonderful what yes i'm not sure i want to say it so maybe i'll pass okay yes

[35:08]

Wait a second. I think Eric was next. What do you think? You said Eric. Eric, I think you're next. I might be wrong, but... Can you talk about how not touching helps us dance with the 21st century? How not touching? Yeah. Not touching is... I think you dance better with something when you're... when you're upright with it. So not touching means that you... It's a dimension of being intimate with it. Or not leaning into it, like a fire, not leaning into the fire. This is instruction on how to be intimate with whatever, not touching, not trying to control. And that allows us to have our own strength and our own integrity, and receive. It's a not-touching, I mean.

[36:18]

It's a not-touching which does not at all turn away. It's a not-touching which does not withdraw or advance. No withdrawal, no advancing. Then everything is the sweet dew. I just wanted to offer my opinion, based on observing a number of years of intimate communication with you, that I think very strongly that you are his disciple, based on his opinion, or on his definition of what his disciple would be. And how are you doing with that opinion?

[37:21]

I'm neither touching it nor avoiding it. That sounds like... That sounds like he's my disciple. I'm not saying he is, though. It just sounds like it, doesn't it? If I were going to a marketing meeting, I would take a tool called Buzzword Bingo with me. It's a bingo sheet. And you can sit there and tick them off as you come up in the discussion department. So I can use the 21st century to help me how to deal with the 21st century. That's right. And then once you have a complete row or column, you can be like, thank you. OK. Maybe you should come with my attendant. Bring you technological equipment.

[38:24]

And then people ask me a question, I say, please consult my attendant. Well, bringing a consultant to the meeting would certainly elevate your stature. Yeah. Now we're talking. I thought of a way of addressing what I would kind of hope would be brought to this meeting is, you know, the saying about selling water down by the river. That's the Buddhist teaching. So there's that saying, and then there's the saying about not selling the Dharma. I heard a rumor that somebody said, if you describe the program like this, people will not click it. If you describe the program like this, they will click it. Anyway, They're selling water by the river.

[39:37]

And then there's also going up the river. And there's also, what's the other one? Going against the stream? Going up the river? Going up the river used to be what they say going to prison. Oh, I didn't know that. Like Sing Sing was up the river from New York. And also the state penitentiary in Minneapolis and Minnesota is also up the river. But then there's also getting, what is it called? Getting washed down the river. There's possibilities here with the river. How do you describe the program? Pardon? How do you describe the program? I don't know what program they're talking about. No, your program. Oh, my program, how do I describe it? Yeah.

[40:43]

I am really tired. Would you please ask Simon? Our attention, particularly, extends to every being and place. That was really a good answer. We have a true merit of good faith. Don't believe that. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to rid them. Thank you for another indescribably wonderful day at good old Noah Boat.

[41:35]

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