So tonight I mentioned that in being upright, I feel there's an element of strength and vulnerability. Both are there. And when you stand or sit upright, you're really strongly present. At the same time, you're vulnerable. They go together. When you're really present, you're vulnerable. And when you're really vulnerable, you're present and upright. And... Oh, Kate. Judith. Deborah. Deborah. Deborah. Cindy.

[01:01]

Jean. Dennis. Naomi. George. Nancy. Britta. Diana. Renee. Norma. Barbara. Steve. Diem. Diem. Laura. Laura. Salvi. Salvi. Jackie. Jackie. Paula. Paula. Jack. Jack. Basha. Basha. And I'm also suggesting by this diagram that the bodhisattva precepts initiate us into being upright. by receiving these precepts and intending to practice them, we are initiated into being strong and vulnerable.

[02:11]

For example, to, you know, vow to practice good is a strong statement, but also when you vow to practice good, you're vulnerable because You can't decide what good is all by yourself. It's not a unilateral thing, so you're vulnerable to other people's opinion and perception and sense of whether you're practicing good. Vowing to refrain from evil, again, is a strong self-assertion. But also you're vulnerable to others when you make that vow because they get to say something about whether they think you're practicing, whether you're avoiding evil or not. And, of course, vowing to live for the welfare of others and benefit others is a very strong statement, a very strong self-assertion. But, of course, others get to say whether they think you're benefiting them. And in another way, I'd like to mention, too, just to take one for example, tonight to talk about telling the truth or being truthful and honest about

[03:25]

Being truthful and honest also initiates you into being upright. You can't really strongly assert yourself if you're not being honest about yourself. But also when you're honest about yourself, you're vulnerable and you're open to others because you told them who you are. You've shown yourself. You've exposed yourself by honestly expressing yourself. Also inwardly, in your own heart or in your own mind, to really say how you feel is a very strong thing to do. But also then you're vulnerable there too, because you've just shown yourself something about yourself. So inwardly and outwardly. This red light flying on the wall, it went away.

[04:30]

Does somebody's pen have a red light on the tip of it? No? Maybe somebody's jewels. So I asked you, you know, do you feel when you're sitting, do you feel strength and vulnerability, but also do you feel like when you sit that you're being honest? while you're sitting. Then, in addition, I'm saying that coming from this being upright, also this being upright, this being vulnerable and strong, also is then the medium to see what you're doing, to swatch your expression that comes from this from this upright, honest, and vulnerable position to watch and see how you express yourself. And from this position, what you're doing and what you think you're doing and what you say you're doing will be revealed to you.

[05:39]

And not only am I talking about being upright, like sitting here, but also being upright in the presence of someone else. And so I have a couple examples of that. And that last week I was on The Verge giving you an example of me trying to be upright in the presence of my daughter. Right? I don't know if I told you Any background? Did I just say I was going to tell you? Did I give you any background on that at all? What? You gave her a week to leave to get a job. Right. Yeah. So the situation was that she had been away in New York and she came back home from school, actually from not school, from not school school. She came back to the Bay Area in May and And she said before she came back that she wanted to hit the ground running.

[06:52]

She wanted to come off the airplane and go out and get a job for the summer. But she didn't. She spent the whole summer kind of like not getting a job, even though she completely agreed that would be a good idea. At the end of the summer, with no real prospects in sight. She'd been living with us and I was going to go off to the monastery for the fall. And I didn't want to like leave her there with my wife to have to deal with the fact that she's just there and not doing what she agreed she wanted to do, namely get work. So I said to her, I said, I would like you, I want you to move out in one week. And before I told her that, I talked to her mother, my wife, about this.

[08:00]

And I told her that's how I felt. And I asked her if she agreed with me. And she said she did. And I didn't make that agreement so much to have a united front exactly, but I just wanted to... I just kind of wanted to know, did we agree or not? And she said she did. And then we sat down with her and I told my daughter that that's how I felt. But in the conversation, my wife kind of changed her mind. She said, I don't know if I agree with you anymore. And I said to my daughter, well, your mother maybe doesn't agree with me, but that's still how I feel, that I would like you to move out in one week if you don't get work in this coming week. And she said, well, if I move out, what am I going to do? And I said, that's the point, is that I'm saying I want you to figure out what to do if you can't get a job. I actually want you to figure that out. That's what I want. And while I was talking to her, I felt that I was there.

[09:11]

that I didn't shrink away from facing her, that I actually stayed present and I didn't shrink away or turn away from meeting her while in a conversation. I was strong, but I was also, I think, vulnerable during the whole conversation. At times like this, with someone you really care about, it's very hard to stay present because, I mean, either you want to like be overly strong and then not really notice them or turn away and not notice them, or keep noticing them but shrink back from expressing yourself. To find that place where you're actually looking at the face of your own child while you're telling your own child that you want her to move out and actually look at her while you say that without being overbearing or shrinking back. That's very hard, but I think I did it pretty well. I wasn't angry. And also,

[10:15]

Another criteria which I look at, looking back at that, but I look at now in the present is, was that expression, pure expression, or was it to some extent trying to control? And I think... pretty much I was just expressing myself. I was not saying that to her to get her to move out. And I was not saying that to her to get her to get a job. I was telling her how her father, who is me, felt. And I suggest that when you're upright, you express yourself not to manipulate or control, but simply as an act of what you are, that that's what you give the person to deal with.

[11:23]

You tell your story and you see your story and you watch yourself while you tell it, And you watch. If you're there, notice that you're just telling your story. It's not the right. It's not the right. It's not the truth in the sense of being a truth versus somebody else's truth. It's your truth. That's all. And she didn't get too angry. She left and went in her room, closed the door without slamming it very hard. And it went pretty well. And afterwards, my wife said that she wasn't sure. Again, she said, I'm not sure if I agree with you, but she wasn't sure. I was vulnerable to her opinion, too. Maybe my tone of voice wasn't quite right or something from her point of view.

[12:30]

Anyway, she was in a different position. The next morning, my daughter got up before noon. Like, you know, 8.30 or something like that, which is very, very unusual in those days. She got up at some hour like that. And I said, and she was kind of chipper. And I said, I'm going to San Francisco tomorrow. you could ride in with me if you want to and look for a job. I think I said something like that. I don't think she said, are you going to San Francisco and can I ride in with you and look for a job? She might have. It was close. But I think it was that way. I said, I'm going to San Francisco. You can go with me and look for a job. I'll give you a ride. And she said, okay. And then she did something else, which she almost never does.

[13:30]

She started getting dressed and she asked me what I thought of her outfit. She said, what do you think of this sweater? I said, that's nice. And then she actually asked me what shoes to wear. And I advised her to look for a job. And we rode into San Francisco. And I went to my place where I go swimming. And while I was there, she went looking for a job. And we were going to meet back in an hour or so. So when I came out of swimming, she was waiting for me in the lobby of the club. And she was sitting in her chair, you know, kind of how girls sometimes do, boys do it too, but girls do it with the leg bobbing, legs crossed and one leg bobbing. You know what I mean? This kind of thing. It's kind of a happy thing. It's kind of like this, you know? So she said, guess what? I don't know if I guessed or not, but I might have said, you got a job?

[14:32]

In an hour and a half. I don't know if I guessed, but I got a job in an hour and a half. And anyway, it didn't work out. The job didn't work out very well, but she did have it for a while. But then not too long after that job, she got another job a few days after that. And so on. And that was the end of that. Oh, and then after she said... She said... I think she said, after she told me to cut the job, she said, do you think that you telling me that you wanted me to move out if I didn't get a job, do you think that had anything to do with me getting the job? And I said, I don't know. Which was the right answer, but also I really didn't. And she asked me something else, too.

[15:34]

I can't remember what it was. But anyway, that was an example, and that was a story that I went through with her. And then after class last time, Judah told me another story, which I thought was relevant. See if I can remember it. She works with kids. Right? And she sees some of the kids she works with heading in a direction which looks like trouble. Is that right? They look like trouble to them, too. And you say to them, this is what it looks like to me. It looks like you're headed for trouble. Do you think so? And they say, yeah. And then she went and asked a friend of hers who has some prison record, right? And she said, I see these kids heading in a direction. She said, when you were headed in a direction like that, if some adult had come to you and told you that they saw you headed in that direction, would that have helped any? And he said, no, I still would have gone in that direction.

[16:36]

But the fact that they would tell me that would plant a seed. And later it would be useful that they told me that. Is that right? Or just tell it now. Well, the kids... They knew what they were doing was likely to lead into murder, and they knew that I had taught them, so they talked a lot about murder. So when I asked them if there was anything I could say that would make you change what you were doing, they said no, that they had to live out their fate. And then when the stupid said, yeah, you said that that was right, that was what he felt too when he was there, he felt that it had been very useful. that people had still had planted, and that was just planting seeds, which the kids, when I took that back to the kids, the kids not only agreed, they said that they were, although they wouldn't listen to any, that there was nothing anybody could say that would change their behavior, they were grateful for people planting seeds.

[17:39]

Right. And so... The strange thing is that when you're, even though you're going through some cycle, whatever it is, and you're going to wherever it is, hell, death, the fact that somebody's standing next to you and loves you makes a big difference. Somehow you can learn. Even though you have to go this way, the fact that somebody cared helps you learn in the place you go to. And if they would stop you from that, you wouldn't know that you could learn if they hadn't stopped you. But they have to be there and care about you and not stop you. It's like walking with somebody and they fall down and you stand next to them and you don't lift them up.

[18:46]

They get up by themselves. But if you don't stand next to them and not help them, they don't know that if you were there, you wouldn't help them. They might think, well, if he was there or she was there, if I fell, they would help me up. In other words, they would do the standing up for me. Now, if you walk with them and they fall down and you run away, that doesn't help. You've got to stay there and stand there until they get up on their own. And they know... that you're standing there because you care about them, and they know that since you care about them, it's uncomfortable for you to see them on their face. This is not easy for you, and you wouldn't be standing next to them if you didn't care. And yet you don't do what they need to do themselves. To do what they need to do themselves is called codependence, not interdependence.

[19:48]

Just before I answer your question, I want to say, think of one other thing before I forget. Okay? I got it. So you want to open to questions now? I was just saying, what you're saying sounds to me like you're believing in that person. That's what you're putting across. You put across that you believe in them? You're believing in them. You're not helping them. They're falling down. You could help them, but you don't. Believe in them, you could put it. In other words... You're believing in them that they have the power. They can do it. Yeah. Well, in the case of my daughter, I knew she can get a job. I wouldn't have told her to move out if she couldn't get a job like that. So I believed in her. But believe in her means I know what she can do. Yeah, they know it. Yeah, right. And that's part of this trick is that sometimes with little babies, you should lift them up because they can't get up. But at a certain age... People can get up on their own and you should not, basically don't do what they can do for themselves.

[20:55]

And you have to know when. And that's part of the problem of being a parent is you get in the habit of doing things for the kid and at a certain time you should stop. So I've told that story of, you know, teaching my daughter how to ride a bicycle, right? I held the seat. First I held the handlebars and the seat. Then I let go of the handlebars and just held the seat. But then it was time to let go of the seat. And she told me to let go. She said, okay, dad, you can let go now. So you got to know the time to let go. But it doesn't, in my case, my daughter, I knew she could get a job. No question in my mind. And I know she can take care of herself. Now there's certain things which may be beyond her ability. Like for example, I don't expect her to put herself through college. When I was a kid, the way things were, you could put yourself through college. You didn't have to have your parents' help. But these days, a lot of kids, colleges become so expensive that it's pretty hard to support yourself, buy your books, work,

[22:07]

and make enough money and study and make enough money to pay also for tuition. It's a different world. So I don't expect her to make enough money to put herself through school, so I'm willing to pay for school, but I'm not willing to pay for her if she's not in school because she can easily support herself. But there are some kids who I would be happy to support because they can't support themselves. I mean, they just can't. And that's okay. It's gone? Okay. Another image which I'd like to offer to you, another dramatic image. Actually, before that I wanted to do another mother-daughter thing. There's another woman who I know, she has this daughter who comes over to visit her. And she doesn't express herself to her daughter. And part of the reason why she doesn't express herself to her daughter, because what she has to say to her daughter is, every time her daughter comes over, what she basically wants to say to her daughter is, I don't want you in my house.

[23:15]

I wish you would leave. That's what she feels about her daughter when her daughter comes over. But, you know, she's her mother, and mothers aren't supposed to want their daughters to leave, she thinks. And I said to her, again, I said, if that's what you feel, that's your gift to your daughter. But you have to look when you say that. Do you say to your daughter, I want you to leave to get her to leave? Or do you say to your daughter, I want you to leave to tell your daughter who you are? You have to look at that. If you're just saying, hey, guess what? You want to know what's happening with your mother? She wants you to leave. And I really do want you to leave. but not to say that to get her to leave. And this other example I'd like to give you, which I think I've done before, it's one of the examples I... And it came to me because of this piece of music, a piece of music called... I guess it's a German... No, it's not German, it's...

[24:29]

It's Latin or Italian. Stabat Mater is the name of the music written by a young German composer or Italian composer. I guess he's Italian. Yeah, he's Italian. Giovanni Pergolesi. It's called Stabat Mater, which means Mother Stood. And it refers to Jesus' mother who, when Jesus was on the cross, his mother stood there That's what she did. That's how she related to her son, her son's torture and suffering. She stood there. She couldn't get him down, and she also couldn't be on the cross for him. But she expressed herself. She wasn't doing nothing. She stood there. She was strong, and she was vulnerable. She was vulnerable to his suffering. She was vulnerable to the Roman soldiers. She was vulnerable to her own suffering.

[25:31]

And she stood there, very strong. And she showed her son what he needed to do too. He had to hang there. He had to be vulnerable and strong. And I don't know, but I feel like she didn't do that to manipulate the situation. She wasn't doing it to try to get him off the cross. She wasn't doing it out of...there was obviously, you know, it wasn't a power trip. And of course it was ridiculous to try to be powerful in that situation, in terms of manipulating the situation. But she was powerful, but she wasn't trying to use her power to control the outcome. She was showing being upright. and she was expressing her love and she was staying there facing this unbelievable misery.

[26:37]

And she was strongly there without trying to manipulate. And so anyway, we're in this situation right now with our, some of our own children, but we're in that situation right now with our own government and also with other governments. We have to stand right now and face our own government to teach our own government how to stand and face another government. How can the United States stand and witness another country in a very expressive way without trying to manipulate? How can we watch our own country face another country and witness our own country, our own government, and say, we're here, we're watching, and we don't like this and we don't like that, but to say that without trying to manipulate, but really express ourselves, how we feel about this.

[27:45]

Each of us. You know, stand up in the situation and say how we feel without trying to manipulate. moment after moment. And with our own children, our own government, they will see we care, and they may not be able to change their course. The child may not be able to change his or her course. The government may not be able to change his or her course. But we do our part And we tell our story with our full energy. And also, while we're doing it, check our own precepts. Are we being truthful? And part of the truth is, are we being manipulative? If you're being manipulative, tell the truth. And if you tell the truth, do you really think that manipulation is the way, that power is the way, or do you think that just telling the truth is the way?

[28:53]

When you tell the truth, you tell the truth to tell the truth. You don't tell the truth to manipulate. Because if you tell the truth to manipulate, you would say, I'm telling the truth to manipulate. And then it's not manipulation anymore when you tip your hand that you're trying to manipulate. If you want to manipulate, you lie. The idea of manipulating people is that you don't trust them, You need to do their thing for them. You need to make their decisions for them. You don't trust them. So you act in a way that's not honest and that's manipulative. Now, if you feel the impulse to manipulate and you honestly admit it, you cancel it by tipping it off. You say, watch out for me. I'm off track here. I want to manipulate you. I confess my impulse to manipulate you. And that confession, that itself, can be not manipulative.

[29:56]

And we may not be able to stop these terrible things from happening, but we set an example for the world. And maybe, sometimes, people will get the message and do their thing right. You can take the horse to water, but you can't make it drink. But we can take the horse to water. Or at least we can walk over to the water shop and say there's water here. Here's the way to deal with this. This is the way actually to love our government, to love our leaders, and to love the other governments too. Hating our government and hating the governments our government has problems with. is not... I mean, well, you know, if we do hate anyone, just to admit that we hate is okay, but the hating is not the way.

[31:05]

And the hating is manipulating. Manipulating is hating. So that's my thing about that. And this being upright, honesty initiates you into this, and honesty helps you watch the story you're telling about other people. And you ask yourself, am I being honest to myself about this story? Do I see that this is a story? And am I being honest to others about this story, about what's going on? Am I speaking the truth? And am I speaking my true story? And do I remember that it's my story? That's part of the truth, is to remember that your truth is just your truth. Part of the truth is to know that we do not have the only version of truth. We know that. We know we make up what we think. We know that we could make up another version of this story. We know that. That's part of the truth for us.

[32:06]

And as part of the truth, when you tell somebody else, like again, you tell your daughter, I'd like you to do this. That's the truth, maybe. Not this is good and this is right. It's not good or right that when you borrow my car, you return it in one piece. That's not like the true, real way to take care of a car. Who knows? It might be just as good to bring it back full of crap. The truth is I don't want you to do that to my car because I have to clean it up, and I don't want to clean it up every time you use it. That's the truth. Your dad's got this problem. He can't stand the car to be totally filthy, and he also doesn't want to have to clean it up. Not, you know, you should do this, and this is right, and it's wrong not to. I want you to do this, I want you to do this, I want you to do this, and I'm telling you that not to get you to do it, but to tell you my situation.

[33:11]

What do you think about that? See the difference? That's honesty. Honesty is part of this full self-expression. It's part of not being fooled by our own stories about what we're saying. Okay? Salvi? Rabbi, I was in a very similar situation. Ten years ago, I went back to Chile to live with my stepchildren. My wife was American and And her children were living in Chile, so we went back to live with them because they were having a big mess over there. So by going back over there, we start living with them. And he didn't want to work, and he was 18, 19 years old. These are your... These are your wife's children. That is correct. Not your children. That is correct. So you and your wife went back to be with her children and your stepchildren. That is correct. Okay. Because they were in trouble.

[34:12]

Yeah. So they were kind of my kids. Yeah. So he was really cheating very badly, like saying he was going to college, but he was going to play pool, and his father discovered it, and he was really in trouble. Yeah. So when I got there, you know, we're sort of buddy-buddies, so he just wanted to go on vacation. And I said, listen, you know, why don't you go on vacation? I think, you know, good money to have a good time, but you work another month. And he said, okay. So he went off on vacation... And then he didn't come back. So we discovered where he was and I called him and he said that the job failed and that he was going to stay on vacation. So I asked him to come back right away. And he said that he won't. And I said, if you don't come back, you're going to be out of my house. So he hung up and he never came back. So when it was time, you know, somehow he was coming back after two months of vacation, I had everything piled up, you know, so he would take it and go away.

[35:26]

But the therapist said that if I kick him out of the house, he would get in trouble, probably even with the police stealing or what. That's what the therapist said. The father, his father was against it. My wife turned her back against me like I don't think it's a good idea anymore to kick the kid. So, you know, we allowed him to come back and things got from worse to worse to a point that I left. And I came back here. And I've been always wondering, you know, what What would be the right thing? You know, I have all this pressure from these people saying that if I would... You know, it's kind of a difficult thing to... Oh, yeah? Oh, really? Sounds really easy to me. What's the problem, Salvi? You sissy? No, the one thing I would say is just that you thought he should not come back.

[36:30]

The therapist, his father, and his mother all disagree with you. It doesn't mean anybody's going to agree with you, just, you know. But you can still maybe, and maybe you don't change your mind. Maybe you can still think, I still want you to leave. But again, I want you to leave does not mean I'm going to control you to leave. Hmm. It just means Salvi, your stepfather, wants you to leave. Your mother doesn't agree with me. Your father doesn't agree with me. The therapist doesn't agree with me. They have a different opinion. So he's got them. So he's got those three people, but he's also got you being you. So that's who they are. That's their job is to be who they are, to disagree with you. That's their job. They have to be that way. But you have to be who you are. So things get bad. You're still who you are. You're not being yourself in order to get him to go out, and you're not being yourself in order to make things go a certain way.

[37:33]

You're being yourself to show him your truth, which is your job. And maybe he has to go ahead, like Judith's examples, and get in trouble, But after he gets in trouble, he knows, these people, each one of these people was this way. And he sees that information. That's part of what he's going to learn from. Salvi disagreed. He wanted me to move out unless I was going to do this. They wanted me to stay because they didn't want me to get in trouble if I was kicked out. In fact, I got in trouble anyway. Salvi left. That's what happened. That's what he has to live with. That's the information he's got. And it's clear to him, and to you especially, that Salvi told me how he felt, he showed me how he felt, and that was it. That's what he gave me. I didn't listen to him, but he told me where he was at. I did something different from what he said, and these are the consequences. And maybe, I don't know, maybe Salvi's told me that, but he didn't tell me that to get me his own way.

[38:38]

He told me because that's who he was. And he learns, he's got that information, and it's a long road we're on, you know? We're going to go, bumpity, bump, bump, bump. The question is, what kind of information are we getting? What kind of teaching? How much trouble do we have to get into before we get it? How much teaching do we have to get? And each person that we know can give us that, and we can give that to each person we know. But it doesn't mean that there's not going to be catastrophes on the way, even if you do this. Catastrophes may be necessary. But catastrophes can happen even when you do try to control people. But is there some seed of truth and honesty mixed in with the path of catastrophe? If there is, there's a chance of awakening and not the end of catastrophe, but the end of dishonesty and the beginning of compassion in the midst of catastrophe.

[39:42]

Judith and Jackie and Barbara. Even though, I mean, you said what you're saying, you're saying that we put out whatever our thing is without manipulation. But I think when I'm listening to you, I feel like you need to make that bigger, to say that bigger, because I think that it's easy to say those words, you know, words like, I don't really expect... this is just my, this is what, this is, I speak from my faith, to actually really put out what you don't think, or the old truth. Yeah. And desire, even, in that situation. And have no, and even, or have belief in somebody. Yeah. But really, at that, at the same time with that, have no expectation that that, that it's going to go the way you want it. Right. It's big. Did you say it's big? Yeah. And hard, and... Yeah, it's big and hard. When I hear you say that to us, I feel like there needs to be more bigness around that, because I think it's not just a matter of adopting and understanding language around these things.

[40:55]

What do you mean by bigness? There has to be a lot of space around my statement of myself or my desire, and without it, so that it doesn't reverberate to the other person. I don't know how to say it right, but... Well, it may... Okay, listen, you said space. Okay, what do you mean by space around it? What I mean by space around it is... Space around it is that it just exists, it's just this. It's just for itself. And that's part of believing in the person too. Part of believing in the person is you see the beauty of the person. And the beauty of the person means you see the beauty of the person just as they are and there's no objective in the situation. You just see the beauty and say what you feel.

[41:56]

I see your beauty and I do not want you to, you know, waste your time. I see your beauty and I do not want you to hurt yourself. That's it. And you really do feel good about the way they are right now. And at the same time, you do want them to be happy, but not because you think there's something wrong with them now. You just don't like something they're doing. And the space is created by the beauty. And the beauty makes the space of not reaching for anything else. and at the same time you're not reaching for anything else, you long for them to be happy and to realize their potential. And that's really being upright. And very hard. Jackie? I actually asked my son to leave the house tonight, just before I came.

[43:00]

And... There were a question that I had, number one, about what you said when you asked your daughter to leave. Okay, both are okay, okay, but they're different statements. One is, I want you to leave. Right. That's what I said, but you could also say, would you please leave? I basically tell him that I could not stand it anymore, that he needed to leave the house. And it was a manipulative thing. And again, so look, is it really true you can't stand it or just simply that you would like him to leave the house? Well, it's I cannot stand living with him in one household. It's just the pain is incredible. Anyway, just check that out whether you can't stand it or that you want to leave. Again, there's a slight difference there. You can sometimes stand things and yet... In other words, you can stand there in the situation and it's painful.

[44:03]

To watch the self-destruction? You mean to stand there and watch the self-destruction? It is possible to watch my own self-destruction and also watch the self-destruction. In fact, in some sense, I am going to be destroyed in a sense pretty soon. I'm going to have to watch that, I think. I mean, I very well may have to watch my own self-destruction as I age. That's something I hope I can watch, because it might happen to me. Okay? That's different. I may not want to watch it, or I may not want to cooperate in certain things which promote the deterioration, but it's slightly different just to say, I don't want to watch this, or I want you to go away, just to be clear about what it is. Because maybe you can stand it, but you don't necessarily, like I could, I think I could watch my daughter just stay and not get, I think I could watch my daughter not work for a long time.

[45:07]

But I don't want to. I'd rather have her move out than watch it. Yeah. My question to you is, were you giving her an option? I mean, come one week, and if she had a job, if she hadn't moved out, what would you have done? Well, she didn't want to move out. I already knew that. She did not want to move out. If my daughter wants to move out, she would have moved out. When my daughter wants to move out, you cannot stop my daughter. I cannot control my daughter. Okay? So when the week was up, if she hadn't have moved out, I would have probably said, well, the week's up. I want you to move out. And she said, well, I'm not going to. I think that would have been it. I wouldn't have done anything except just keep... I don't know what I would have done at that point. My son knows that. Knows what? My son knows that I wanted to leave, but if it came push to shove, I would be... Yeah, and I don't think I would make my daughter move out either if the wood push came to shove.

[46:08]

But the fact is, in my case with my daughter, the fact that I want her to move out means something, whether I'm going to force her to move out or not. The fact that this person, who she knows loves her, wants her to move out, it means something to her. And the fact that I'm not going to physically move her out of the house is not really the issue. And she actually doesn't know for sure that I won't. Because I still might move her out. But actually, she wouldn't let me do that. I mean, she wouldn't let me pick her up and set her outside. But even if I did, she'd just come back in. So with my daughter, and probably with your son, she's not under my control. But she does care about what I think. and what I feel. And she particularly cares when I don't say something about her, like I don't say, you're this way or that way. She does not want to hear that. But she does care about what I want. And I said, I want you to move out.

[47:10]

I didn't say I can't stand it because I can stand it. I can stand to see it. Matter of fact, that's part of the thing is that you have to look them in the eye and see what they're doing and saying, I don't like this. You can't look away and be out of town and send them a letter saying, I don't like this. You have to see it firsthand. They have to see that you're caring enough to look at it, to look at them right then and say, I, without flinching, I don't. I, who love you, want you to do this. I, who love you, want you to do this. I, who love you, am asking you to do this. Without looking away. And face that brilliance. But you see, there is a part of me that does not want him in the streets with this rain and trying to figure out... Right. And there's a part of me that does not want my daughter to be in the rain with the streets, but there's a part of me who actually... would prefer, actually prefer for her to be in the street figuring out what to do with the rain, and it hadn't started to rain yet, but anyway, it was September, would rather have that than have her stay in the house.

[48:19]

Actually, there was part of me that that's where I was at, is I would prefer for her to figure out what to do with that than stay in the house. And I was the only one around that was talking to her like that. Her mother would not prefer that. But that's where I was at. But I wasn't to the point of trying to force her to do it. And I could stand for her to stay, but I could also stand the harder thing. The harder thing would be for her to leave before she had a job. That would be harder. But I would be willing to do the harder thing. And I would be willing to also leave with her if she wanted me to. I would be willing to go out there and stand next to her on the street. But your daughter was older. My son's 17. Yeah. She was older. It's true. So, I mean, what do you do when they're underage? Do you use the same... What you do is you use how you are. You use how you are. You trust also yourself. You say where you're at.

[49:22]

You say how you feel. That's what you use. You honestly look at yourself and you honestly tell your son about his mother. That's what you do. He knows that, but he doesn't care. He does not care. If he doesn't care? He doesn't care enough to make any changes. Even the word enough, you don't even need to use that. You can just say he doesn't care. It's possible that he doesn't care. It's possible. I think he cares, but he also wants to prove himself. yeah he wants to prove himself and that's a big deal is that how does the mother help the son be a man right this is a real difficult thing how do you help them be strong and not collude in their in their wayward behavior and yet not emasculate them which you can easily do how do you tell them this is weird in such a way that they can be strong in response?

[50:24]

How do you love them and give them negative feedback without breaking them? In some dramatic presentation of this being upright, in some ways in theatrical productions It's often more moving, easier for a woman to portray being upright than it is for a man, especially a woman in the face of a man. Because when a woman is standing up to a man, you know she's vulnerable. She doesn't have to show you her vulnerability. All she has to show you is her strength. But it's hard for a man to show his vulnerability to a woman. From the outside, it's hard to see his vulnerability, because his strength you can see, but it's harder to see his vulnerability. Whereas a woman, you know her vulnerability, so what you need to see is her strength. So for the boy, vis-à-vis his mother, his strength is easy to show, but his vulnerability he has trouble showing you.

[51:31]

So how do you not destroy him at the same time expressing yourself? It's very tricky. But you still have to work... The fundamental thing you work with is how you feel. That's your main gift. And how do you give that? How do you be upright? And I think, again, the safe way to give it is... Again, for you to be aware of how vulnerable you are to him. Because part of what crushes the boy, or the young man, is when the mother isn't in touch with her vulnerability. And she's just strong from his point of view. Barbara? Yeah. You just briefly touched on that manipulation of sleep.

[52:38]

And I wanted to hear you expand that a little bit. It seems to me that I've interpreted manipulation that way. It feels as though if I, you know, whether you're a child or you're parents or whatever, there's this feeling if someone is, you know, telling you that you are something that you don't perceive yourself to be or someone is withholding information or giving, misreading information in order to get you to do something. There's a way it feels hateful. And I've been asked to explain that. And it's been difficult for me to explain what I mean when I say that. And the clearest I can get is that it feels like I'm being told that someone not did something. It isn't for me to tell you that you're manipulating me.

[53:53]

I can ask you, do you feel like you're trying to manipulate me? And in that process, I might feel like you're being hateful towards me. But for me, from my side, if I'm trying to manipulate it, basically I'm saying that what you are is wrong. I'm trying to avoid or in some sense destroy what you are. I'm trying to make you not be the way you are. Rather than say, I don't like the way you are. I don't like you when you're like this. I hate it when you do that. I just hate you. To tell you that I hate you is not trying to manipulate you. I mean, it can be that way. It can be pure, I hate you. Pure, I don't like this. Pure, I wish you would stop. Rather than say, I wish you would stop to get you to stop. So my hate is, I don't like the way you are. But to tell you I hate you is not hate.

[54:59]

you can tell someone that you hate them in a loving way, in a very pure, unmanipulative, loving way. That was cool. To hear from someone... It sounds cruel. It sounds cruel, and it could be. But in actual fact, it a lot of times is very endearing, very awakening, and very helpful. You mean if it's done with the intention of... Maybe not even with the conscious intention of helpful, but just with the actual unavoidable expression of, you know, just with honesty, with just honesty and vulnerability. of strongly saying where you are and the vulnerability of being a person who is angry.

[56:03]

Angry is not good in a lot of situations, right? Angry and hateful is not good, but that's who you are, and you're honestly that person. That's not anger. That's not anger. To honestly be who you are when you're angry is not anger. That's honesty. That's being upright. Now, what you are is kind of deluded. That's not anger. Because you don't like the way somebody is. You don't see their beauty at the moment. Or you do see their beauty, but you don't like them to do X. And you hate X. I might be getting a little lost here, but what I'm imagining is I can't imagine staying strong or staying... around someone who's angrier and hateful a lot. Well, take, again, excuse me for going back to the example. Take away hateful a lot, okay? Just, my daughter's doing something, I don't like it. What? That's what? Seems very minor.

[57:06]

What's minor? I mean, I... What's the minor part that you're talking about? It seems minor compared to someone standing and yelling at you with anger and saying they hate you. If that was happening a lot... Well, this kind of yelling doesn't happen a lot. It doesn't happen a lot. That's one of the characteristics of it. It happens like it goes... And that's it, pretty much. It doesn't go... It usually doesn't get repeated. Just a person says, just strongly, I hate you or I hate that. And it's a raging fire of expression. And it's over. They said, I did my thing. I told you. I gave you 100,000 pounds of expression of my hate. You got it. Good luck. I've seen little people, I've been blessed with little people who get, you know, like eight or ten feet tall and turn red to tell me about my conduct.

[58:20]

But they don't like, you know, then sort of do it over and over. They can't do that for very long. But they just manifest this great message to me. But they don't do it to manipulate me. They do it to wake me up. But they don't do it over and over. So with my daughter, I said, I didn't go over and over, I want you to move out, I want you to move out. I had her sit down, I got her attention, and I said straight on, very strongly, of course I don't like the situation, and this is what I want. And I didn't need to yell. But sometimes yelling helps. In this case, it didn't. Sometimes yelling helps. She herself has said that to me, and it's been helpful to me. She has yelled at me. She has nailed me a number of times. Just right, just got me exactly, boom. And those times, one of those times anyway, I just sat there and let her nail me. And I let her know she nailed me.

[59:27]

And her mother watched this, and it's one of the great moments in our life that when she did this to me, very strong you know dad you're like totally off right there it isn't over and over though that's like you don't you only do it over and over when you kind of like don't express yourself fully when you kind of half-heartedly do it you try again and again but when you fully do it you're satisfied there's beauty in that and you're satisfied so you don't do it over and over You do it once a year or once a lifetime with somebody. You play this great role of showing them this kind of pure, you know, pure self-expression. In a sense, it's pure love. It doesn't happen over and over. I have a situation where I have a friend who I watch her interactions with her children, and by my standards, she's not upright.

[60:33]

I mean, she will lie for them. She will lie to protect them or to... And I think it's horrible, but I've never said to her, I think what you're doing is wrong. And I don't know if it's appropriate. I feel like it isn't appropriate, because in her mind, what she's doing is necessary, and it's right. I mean, she has to do this. So... Yeah, well... I mean, she's not a child. She's not a relative. Right. Well, part of, you know, part of this is also not only what is the truth for you, what is your truth, looking inside what's your truth, and what do you truly, truly feel like would be good to say and express to you, but also does this person want this from you? And you have to ask her, does she want this? If she doesn't want it, our children do want this from us. Children do, do want this from their parents.

[61:34]

They do. We are the main people on the planet that they want this from. Now, they don't want it all the time, though. They want it once in a while. There are these moments when they want it. They do not want it nonstop. They want to give it to us whenever they want to give it to us. And they want it to be there for whenever they're in the mood to give it to us. And we want it from them, too. And actually, we want to be a person who can get it from them anytime. That's what we want. That's really our job. We're the adult. When they're children, they are not yet ready to get it from us whenever we want to give it to them. But some people do not want it from us, and if they don't, then it is not necessarily appropriate to give it to them. The part of honesty is to honestly find out whether it's appropriate. And if they don't want it, it is a waste of time.

[62:38]

To give this gift at the wrong time is a big mistake. It actually hurts the person to reject this precious gift, and it hurts us too. So what you need is you need to check. You need to check with your children or with your parents, but you can basically know that they need it. But some people maybe don't need it from us in the near future. Time may be quite a ways away from when this... Eventually, everybody needs us to do this with them, but it isn't necessarily this week or this month that they need it. In the meantime, there are so many people who do want it from us, actually. A lot of people do. We have plenty of opportunities. But the people that do, we're often afraid to give it to them. because we know what might come back. So oftentimes it's the people who aren't yet ready for us that we're kind of like thinking, well, should I say it or not?

[63:44]

But actually there's somebody else nearby that we've got an opportunity on and we can work out on them. Yes? Right. Okay, now, I forgot part of that. Now, I understand that when it comes time, when you're upright, okay, you're strong. You've got something to say. Not always. It's not that you're talking nonstop, but you do have something to offer from your strength, but also you're vulnerable.

[64:47]

So when I talked to my daughter, I did not think that she was going to like this. I did not think, oh, you know, dad's totally cool to say this to me. My father's telling me to move out? This is horrible. I didn't think she would like it, and she didn't. But the next day, she did. The next day, she did like it very much, in a way. But I took a chance that my daughter would think I was horrible for telling her to... I took that chance. I was not saying that to make her mother or her think I was a good dad. I was telling her because I had to tell her. But I was in danger when I told her that. I was in danger in terms of what she would think of me and I was in danger of making a mistake, of making a big mistake. But in fact, that's who I was, was in danger of making a big mistake. But I did my best and it worked out.

[65:52]

So that is part of it. And that's part of the manipulation too. And the dishonesty is to say it, to think of saying it in a way that won't endanger you. To say it in such a way that you're not vulnerable to potential error or mistake. But you are vulnerable. If you keep it to yourself, you're still vulnerable to a big mistake. It's just that you don't notice it because you're backing away from that balanced place. When you're upright, you know you're vulnerable. You're always vulnerable. If you do something, you can be wrong. If you don't do something, if you say it, it can be wrong. If you don't say it, it can be wrong. If you let him hang around and go on with the bad behavior, that could be wrong. To say anything about it could be wrong. You are vulnerable to error when you're who you are. But also, who you are is your only thing that you have to give in this world. It's your only opportunity to realize compassion.

[66:53]

What? To give yourself. To give yourself is the only way to realize compassion. But also in the process of learning to give yourself, you're vulnerable to big mistakes. But that's how you have to train yourself at giving yourself. I think I was kind of relating to what Barbara said earlier about, you know, when somebody's yelling and screaming at you all the time, It doesn't seem like that's good self-expression. That seems like that's just really abusive. Right. I think that's what you're saying. Yeah. And there was a situation in my life when I was 16, and it was actually the day I left my parents' home, where I... really abusive situation, alcoholic boundaries, you know, people around the family. And I kind of had enough, and I was ready to leave, so I left that night. But before I left, he was sitting in his chair in the living room, and I just said everything I ever wanted to say to him. And I was really risking physical violence, because in the past, if I, you know, screamed out in anger what an asshole he was, you know, I got beating.

[67:57]

You know, that was that. And this time I didn't really, I did raise my voice eventually, but it just started out telling him I am weeping and this is why. And this is the kind of person that you have been in my life. And it's really sucked. You know, you really suck as a father. And this is it. This is the end of the road for me. He sat there and took it for about a half an hour. And I've had two conversations with him since the last 15 years. It was a really interesting moment. Yeah. And I think there's a story of a lot of young women around 16, they just draw the line with their father and they don't necessarily ever get back with him. And this is something that's kind of a surprising thing maybe, is that your father is somewhat successful that you were able to do that. So, huh? He's somewhat successful as a father that she was able to draw the line with him.

[68:59]

and say, this is it. You can't do that. I'm out of here. It's to his credit that she is a person that could say that to him. Some fathers have daughters who just take it forever and never draw the line. The daughter loves the father. The daughters love their fathers. Daughters love their mothers. Okay? Some daughters let their fathers keep expressing themselves in this ineffectual, dishonest way forever, and they never say, you can't do this anymore. I mean, I shouldn't say you can't do this, but I'm not going to sit here and watch you express yourself in this inappropriate way, which is half-hearted, actually. For a father to beat up a daughter is not a wholehearted thing to do.

[70:03]

It isn't really wholehearted. It's a wimpy thing to do. really wimpy. What's really wholehearted is for a father to love a daughter and be kind to a daughter and find that balanced place between, you know, indulgence and coldness. That's really what takes guts. That's what a father's for. That's full self-expression. That's being upright, is to be strong with your daughter and be vulnerable to your daughter. When a father doesn't do that, a loving daughter will say, okay, dad, you're fired. I'm out of here. But some fathers are so ineffective at expressing themselves that their daughters pity them so much that they never draw the line. They just let them keep failing to be themselves indefinitely. So you did the loving thing to say no indefinitely. That was a loving thing to do.

[71:06]

To tell him, you can't keep this up with me. I'm not going to support you to keep doing this. And he deserved that love to the extent that she was able to say it. And to hang around with your father and let him abuse you, in other words, let him be a wimp and not be a man, To hang around with that, that's not loving your father. You should not do that with your father. You should not let him do that to you. That's not love. Like in the, what is it, in King Lear. The strong daughter would not let her father act in that stupid way. The strong daughter says, knock it off, dad. This is no good. I'm out of here. I'm not going to play this game with you. But he was, she was a wonderful daughter and she loved her father, but he was also... somewhat successful that he had a daughter like that. In other words, he was a jerk, an arrogant fool, but there was something good about him because he had a daughter like that. And there's something good about your father that he has a daughter like you.

[72:15]

He's not a total failure if he's got somebody in his life that loves him enough to tell him the truth. You're a total failure when you limp through life and people don't say, you can do better than that. And if you keep this up, I'm splitting the scene. I'm not going to sit here and support you to not do your job. And if you're not going to be a good father, I'm not going to support that anymore. You've got to do your job, Dad. Like my wife, you know, when we first got married, she said, no hitting. She said, you hit me, and I'm out of here. Doesn't mean I don't love you. It just means I'm out of here. Your father hits you, you're out of here. Doesn't mean you don't love him. It means you just, dad does not do that to me. That's not what dad's for. You do that, you're not doing your job. I'm not going to support you as daughter anymore. You want me to play the role of daughter?

[73:18]

You stop acting that wimpy way of beating up girls. Then you get your daughter back. Until then, you know, get it together, dad. And I'm out of here until you do. That's love. And everybody deserves that kind of love. Everybody. Everybody deserves love. And what is love? Everybody deserves you to be who you are. And when you're who you are with somebody, you're giving them a great gift. And you may say, okay, I don't love the person enough to be who I am. Okay. Hold back, hide out, don't be vulnerable, don't be honest. And in fact, then you're not loving, you're not giving them the great precious thing, and you don't love them. And then they can just rot because you're not showing them this wonderful thing that you are.

[74:19]

But also you're not being upright, and you're losing out too. And if somebody loved you, they wouldn't let you get by with that. They would say, you can't do that. I'm not going to sit here and let you do that. You've got to be yourself for that person. And again, you can't do that means, of course you can do it. I can't control you. You can't do it means, I hate it when you do that. You're much bigger and stronger and beautiful than that. You have something to give. Give it. You're not being honest. You can be honest. And when you're honest, you are just incredibly beautiful, and that's wonderful. So, you know, it's hard. It's really hard to do this, but I'm totally convinced that that's the way.

[75:24]

It's hard, though, and it doesn't control the situation. It just means you keep giving this wonderful gift, this wonderful love. You just keep giving that no matter what happens. No matter how bad it gets, you just keep giving it. And eventually, it wakes people up. And it's compassion all the way through. And everybody deserves this kind of love from you. Everybody. But again, the form it takes in a lot of cases is, bye-bye. I'm not going to support this anymore. I want you to move out. I'm not going to sit here for this anymore. That's what the form of the love sometimes takes because that's who you are sometimes. And that's not wimpy. That's not half-hearted. That can be a wholehearted no. A very big no that completely includes yes. Yes, I love you.

[76:26]

No to this. So I appreciate you coming tonight in the rain and everything. See you next week.

[76:45]

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