How was the sesheen schedule? Would that be a good schedule for a seven-day sesheen? I heard people liked the four periods in the afternoon. When do you want the tea, Linda? How about having tea instead of work? So... Helen gave me this calendar.

[01:07]

And the March has... The calendar has pictures of Tibetan art, mostly. And for March, the artwork is the protector of the Dalai Lamas. But... You know, I sat with it for a little while, but it's... not protecting me. It's this real dark thing. I'm sure it protects the Dalai Lama very nicely, but anyway. So I switched to April. I kind of got marched down pretty well. April's a nice painting of Vaishaja Guru, the healing teacher, the medicine Buddha, and this lapis lazuli skin, dark blue instead of black.

[02:26]

So, you know, the Buddha is sometimes spoken of as to be like a doctor or a healer. To heal what? To heal the illness. And what's the illness that the Buddha heals? The illness. What? Delusion. Ignorance. Ignorance. And then what arises from ignorance? Greed. Greed. Suffering. delusion, and anger. And what is the medicine the Buddha gives for ignorance? What? What is the medicine that the Buddha gives for ignorance? Dharma. The Buddha gives teaching. And how do you take the teaching that the Buddha gives? You sit, stand, you meditate.

[03:35]

You take the teaching in by meditating in all postures, hopefully. And if you take this medicine every day, throughout the day, it actually cures the illness of ignorance and ends the poisons of greed, hate, and delusion. Now, this ignorance is particularly ignorance. It means, you know, ignorance is focused on misunderstanding the self or misunderstanding or misconstruing what the self is, seeing our life as independent of the rest of life, which we call ego, you know, an isolated self. That's ignorance. So the meditation is to receive the teachings about what the self is.

[04:37]

And then we have in the Zen school, we have some simple meditations to help us with this, which I mentioned some during session. I'd like to mention them again today and see if you have any questions about it. So... These are meditations which help us receive the Buddha's teaching. So one of them is the meditation of the self, being intimate with the self. So meditating Meditation as the self being intimate with self is a way to receive the Buddhist teaching of self. The Buddhist teaching of self is called no self.

[05:40]

So I propose to you that the self being intimate with the self realizes the Buddhist teaching of no self. And in order to realize the intimacy of self with self, one has to, I've been saying, practice love. It isn't just that you sort of say, okay, I'll have intimacy with the self. All right. It has to be a loving process. a respectful attitude, so that you can actually, like, really get in there with yourself, with all that's involved there. And in particular, the aspect of love, which is equanimity, is particularly important, especially important.

[06:48]

So it's intimacy with no expectation. Somehow intimacy with no preference. It's pure presence with no thinking, without thinking. Or it's a mind like a wall. pure presence, without thinking. Always aware and therefore no words can reach this awareness. This is equanimity. But equanimity is an aspect of love.

[08:09]

Susan asked a question during session which some people appreciated because she brought up two aspects. One aspect is does equanimity mean you don't care? Equanimity is an aspect of love. It means you care enough to be very close to what's happening. Equanimity is not dislocated from what's happening. It's right in there. You bring yourself close to and attend closely to whatever is happening. You have loving concern or real wholehearted loving concern, hoping well for whatever is happening and wishing that whatever is happening be free of suffering and be joyful about this practice of compassion and loving-kindness. You're very close, very well-wishing, Very concerned in the sense of concern, of the root of the meaning of concern.

[09:16]

The root of the word concern is not to worry. That's one of the meanings we have for concern. It's more the root meaning of concern, which means to be together in a sieve. the root of concern, concern, in a cern, in a sieve. You're very concerned in the sense you're right there, closely involved, and then you have no expectation. In other words, no outflows. Therefore, you can continue to be concerned. You can hang in there with what's ever happening, moment after moment, steadily, Your presence will be uninterrupted because you have a clanimous presence. No words of gain and loss reach this awareness. In this situation, we realize intimacy, so presence without thinking

[10:28]

is inherently intimate. Presence without thinking is inherently intimate. This is the essential working of all each Buddha. So you bring this kind of presence without thinking which is inherently intimate to every phenomena And in that equanimity one can see the Buddha, understand. You bring this to the self and you see no self. You bring this kind of attention to the self and you naturally don't find this independent self. You don't find this inherently existing self. you find this no-self.

[11:39]

You understand emptiness through this presence without thinking, through this mind like a wall. But this mind like a wall is a warm mind. It's a warm mind. It is very concerned for every phenomenon, but no expectation and no preference. Which is very hard. And that's one of the opportunities of a Zen session is we get into situations where it's really hard not to have preferences. When you're in the middle of pain, it's hard not to prefer a more comfortable situation. And when you're in the middle of a temporarily comfortable situation, it's hard not to prefer that. But there's the opportunity to practice equanimity right here at Tassajara.

[12:45]

A real opportunity to see if you can, like, have no preference and no expectation that this will go on and this will stop. this will end. Now, you know it will end, but if it's painful, you're not saying, I know this is going to end, I know this is going to end, I know this is going to end. So, that's what I was talking about, and I just wondered, is this clear to you now? And so, this is something I've gone over so many times, I just want to check to see if it makes sense to you, and Whether you have any questions or problems with it. Yes. Yes. Clarify your relationship to suffering or purify your relationship to suffering.

[13:51]

That's the practice of compassion. So, you got some suffering in yourself, some suffering in others. Compassion is to clarify that relationship, to purify that relationship. In other words, you don't indulge in it. You don't run away from it. You're intimate with it. And when you're intimate with suffering... That is the pure relationship with suffering, to be intimate with it. And when you're intimate with it, you naturally wish that beings will be relieved of it. But you wish that out of this appropriate relationship with it, this purified relationship, which is compassion. So compassion is, in one sense, to wish that you and others would be free of suffering, but it's also, that arises out of, you know, the balanced attitude towards it.

[14:59]

If you're running away from it all the time, or banging your head against it, it might never occur to you that it would be nice to be relieved of it. Some people are so, moving so fast, Or, you know, have so many addictions by which they turn away from suffering that they really aren't convinced that they want to be free of it. Because they think, well, I guess I could stand a little longer. Because then I could still play with this other stuff. So this is like, what do you call it, the children in the burning house in the Lotus Sutra. It's still kind of fun here. Got a few toys left to play with. Not so bad. Being clear about your suffering opens you up to more suffering? Well, I might have said being clear, but also being patient with your suffering opens you to more.

[16:05]

So, yeah, so if you're aware of a little bit of suffering and you practice patience with that, then you can dare to open to more that you perhaps were turning away from before because you didn't have enough patience to dare to face it. So as you face more and more the full extent of your suffering, you'd be more and more convinced that you really do, actually, that you really are a wimp. You know, that you really can't take it indefinitely. It's not really like something you're going to just put up with forever. And it's, you know, and really that's the truth. I mean, that's just the way you really are. Is that it is just too much to go on like this indefinitely. So it would be good to actually become free of it. And also, other people are suffering too and it would be good if they became free of it.

[17:09]

And it's not any longer something that I'm going to just sort of postpone working on. I'm going to work on it right away because I'm so impressed by the scale of it. And I'm impressed by the scale of it because... Because I've opened to it. And I've opened to it because I have patience. So I can open to it without endangering everybody on the planet and my reaction. If you suddenly open from a little bit of awareness of suffering to a huge awareness of suffering to a vast awareness of suffering, you probably have a very unskillful reaction. like, you know, try to run with a broken leg or something. So we gradually open up to it through participations, and then we're gradually more convinced that we do want to find the medicine for this pain.

[18:22]

Yes? Why isn't it... It seems like there's a lot of different types of pain inside and outside the mindset. It seems to me the only expression or training in intense physical pain. In the respect that there are so many other areas of physical the physicality that we treat, which, and I don't think that that's a bad thing, it's fine, but it seems like when you come up with this issue, and just to really look at the . So your question is, in other areas of our life, when we are physically uncomfortable, we often do something to make ourselves more comfortable. Whereas in Sashin, we don't necessarily do what would be maybe immediately making ourselves more comfortable.

[19:31]

Well, one of the reasons, there are actually quite a few reasons. So I'll just give you a few examples. In my case, I remember in the first few years of practice, whenever I sat sashina during a certain phase, after I sat one or two days, I would get this pain in my back, in my upper back on my left side under my scapula. And it had something to do with making hand mudra. It was related to that. If I didn't try to make the hand mudra, if I put my hands on my knees, it would go away. But if I put my hands in the cosmic concentration mudra, I'd get this pain after a couple of days. And so I felt it was related to how I was holding my hands. Okay, so like you say, under ordinary circumstances, well, just put your hands on your knees and that takes care of that pain. But I felt like it was something was funny. There was something, not funny, but something unbalanced or sort of not quite right the way I was holding my arms and shoulders and so on.

[20:40]

And this pain was showing it to me. It didn't show up during regular sitting. You know, sitting one or two periods in a row didn't show up. But during sesheen it would show up. So for about, I think about two and a half years, every time I sat at sesheen, I got this pain which lasted for most of the sesheen. And if it got too bad, again, to the point where I felt like I was going to freak, I put my hands on my knees. And I often say that to people. Try to put your hands in this mudra. Because in this mudra, and if you also not make the mudra properly and also hold it against your abdomen without leaning on it, it often brings out other aspects of your body posture that you need to work on. It's interrelated with a lot of things. But if it gets to be too much, in terms of pain often in the shoulders and upper back and neck, if it gets to be too much, we'll relax for a while. and then come back later when you're up for it.

[21:41]

So I didn't drive myself into some extreme reaction by this pain, but it did keep appearing for years. And then it then stopped. Now, did I find my posture? I think so. I think when I found the posture, I not only found the end of that pain, but I found other ways of sitting that were really balanced and energetic. So the pain often is, the pain in sitting for long periods is often like prodding you to a more and more purified way of holding the body in the sitting and walking meditation. I also had problems doing kinheen for years. the kingdom is very painful for me sometimes in a different way than, than, um, the sitting was, I had different set of problems when I walked, when I did a walking meditation. And, uh, you know, I, I really, and, and, and, uh, I didn't, with sitting anyway, I thought, well, you know, I was up for it because I thought it was really good, but I didn't, I just hadn't, I really didn't like the walking meditation at all.

[22:52]

And, uh, And that was really hard for me because I didn't think anything good about it, plus it was just painful. But there, too, I finally found somehow a way to do it, which for me was, I don't know what. I think my posture is, in some sense, more balanced, better in a lot of ways than it was 30 years ago. Rather than, which usually happens to a person when they get 30 years older, their posture usually deteriorates. So that's one of the main reasons for the pain is it's a prod to find a more and more efficient way of sitting. Like I said, you know, a lot of things you do that are off or that drain you or that are bad for you, if you do them once a day, it doesn't matter. But if you do them a thousand times a day, it really adds up. So you can stand in bad posture for a few minutes, probably. depending on how bad it is, but you can stand in inefficient, stressful postures for a while.

[23:55]

But if you do it all day long, it's pretty difficult to sustain, although some people do it in various ways. But you're fortunate, actually, if you're getting the kinds of pain that are prodding you to better posture. Sometimes it means the posture you should do is so much better that you should immediately change your posture because you're hurting yourself. Other kinds of postures, pains, are just goads to look for a different approach. So that's one of the main reasons why we don't just necessarily do the immediate relief thing, but more like look for what this means kind of approach. And usually people's posture, people who have pain, usually their posture evolves. And they handle that problem and then move on sometimes to other problems. And so layer after layer of discovery of better and better postures happens regularly.

[25:01]

And we said, as far as what's going on in Sachin, but your advice about that makes me wonder about when areas of, quote, unquote, take care of yourself, that kind of advice that we do with everyday activity, it makes me wonder about that. Well, how so? Because the example I just gave is taking care of yourself. Namely, you're trying to develop the upright posture, mentally and physically, right? That's what you're looking for. And so you're doing this to take care of yourself and to take care of other beings. So this is part of taking care of yourself, too. So if I'm in a relationship, some other kind of situation, taking care of myself means loving-kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity. That's taking care of myself. What does that mean in a particular situation? This is all about taking care of yourself.

[26:05]

And it's all about taking care of others. So that's what it's all. So it's just a seshin offers you a situation where you're trying to do a similar posture throughout the day rather than switching from one posture to another every time you get a little uncomfortable. Like I told you that story many times. I was in a yoga class. I was lying on my back. And the yoga teacher said, if you stay in any posture long enough, you'll realize you're uncomfortable. But usually people change it as soon as they get a little uncomfortable, they adjust their posture, and then they think, okay, now I'm uncomfortable again. But then they usually don't realize that the discomfort's with you there. You moved in the new situation, you're still uncomfortable, but you have to stay there for a while to realize it. The discomfort is... Pervasive. There's a type of suffering which is pervasive, which pervades positive, negative and neutral states.

[27:11]

That's the suffering that the ignorance is at the root of. So in some sense, if you lose track of pervasive suffering, you're kind of out of touch with the Buddha's teaching. your meditation practice has a gap in it. So that's why you need to be patient so that you can be steady, so that you can feel the pain, the pervasive pain all the time, and be relaxed and have the best posture under that circumstance and keep taking the medicine of intimacy. of intimacy with what's happening. If you're not in pain, why make the big effort of practicing intimacy? Why not just enjoy the freedom from pain, which you have realized, which is what most people do. But until you're enlightened, there is no freedom from pain.

[28:16]

It's non-stop. Non-stop. But ignoring it works pretty well. So there's ignorance of what you are, ignorance of the truth, and then there's ignorance of the pain, which arises from ignorance, which are called addictions. So addictions are fairly effective. And in an affluent society like America, we have a lot of them. Some are more socially acceptable than others. Like the strange thing is, some of the worst... are socially acceptable in certain spheres because they drive the economic machine very nicely, like alcohol. It's really bad for people, but it's fairly accepted. But it's used by most people, I guess. It seems to be used as an addiction rather than just food stuff. But some people use food that way, too, as an addiction, as a distraction.

[29:22]

which is even a more acceptable distraction. Money. Power. Overwork. Sex. TV. TV. Anything. Many, many possibilities. But, you know, work. What? What? Zazen, yeah. Work, actually, when you work right, work doesn't distract you from suffering. Underwork and overwork can distract you, but working just right, when you hit the right beam, and it's also with eating, when you eat right and you work right, they don't distract you, they aren't addictions. But overwork and underwork and overeating and undereating can both distract you from pervasive suffering. which is one of the advantages of fasting. When you're fasting, you maybe don't notice the big one, got the little one.

[30:27]

Yes? So would you say that one of the ways to test whether you're right on is that you notice that you're suffering all the time? One of the ways to test that you're right on Okay, stop right there. To test whether you're right on is a sign that you're a little off. When you're right on, you're not testing that you're right on. You're a little bit not intimate if you're testing to see if you're intimate. If you have to look to know if you're intimate, you're not intimate. If you want to look to see if you're intimate, and then you indulge in that wish to look to see if you're intimate, you just veered away a little bit. So anyway, you said, could one of the ways to check be X? Yes, it could be one of the ways to check, but checking is not it. So you're getting back to the main point of my talk today.

[31:32]

But that just shows it's hard for us to practice without checking and having ways to verify that we're practicing right. And one of the ways to check if you're practicing right might be, am I aware of suffering? But checking is not equanimity. Equanimity is not checking. For example, equanimity, you do not prefer... To be on than to be off. If you don't prefer to be on rather than being off, you're on. But if you kind of like don't want to be off, or you do want to be off, then you're off. Excuse me. If there's a wish to be off and there's the wish to be on, that's okay as long as you don't grasp them. Because equanimity lives in an ocean where there's the wish to be off and the wish to be on. Just in equanimity, you don't reach over and grab being off.

[32:36]

You don't grab being on. And you also don't grab ways to check to see if you're off or on. Okay? You don't check. You don't grasp the checks, which you're grasping probably to make yourself comfortable, right? To say, okay, I'm Here I am being equanimous and I'm suffering. I would like to check to see if the suffering is like a good sign. Then I'll feel better. Right? Well, it's not so much the suffering is a good sign, but it's a good sign that you're aware of the suffering, I would say. But to check, to see if it's okay and try to get some affirmation, that's beside the point. The point is just be there and feel it with no recourse. feel suffering with no recourse, feel suffering with no alternative, and you're going straight forward. But to pat yourself in the back is a step backwards. Not a real bad step, but you could do a lot of those in one day, you could get in big trouble.

[33:43]

So her point brings us back to the The hard thing is this practicing of intimacy, this practicing of equanimity. Yes. When you are traveling to China, it was one year and a half ago, you said that it's very difficult for one to be happy when one sees so miserable people, so many people who suffer a lot. Now, when you are far away from China, how do you accept the suffering of Chinese people or the people who are far away from you? Are you conscious of them or do you feel them in another level? Well, that relates to what Galen brought up.

[34:49]

If I, the more I open to my suffering, the more it goes beyond my suffering. And if I can be patient with that increased suffering, then it naturally opens up more. So, if I practice patience, then I feel the suffering ever-widening. Until... It's not to say that... Well, until... The point is, until this... this aspiration arises which is that I wish to attain Buddhahood in order to help all suffering beings and what wishing to achieve Buddhahood means I wish I hope to open up all the way Buddha is completely open and I wish to be as open as a Buddha to all suffering so I'm not saying to you right now I'm completely open to all suffering but I say maybe I vow to open to all suffering I've opened enough for the vow to arise that I wish to open completely.

[35:55]

So their suffering is not your suffering, but you respond to quit their suffering, right? Well, I have my suffering in response to their suffering, even though their suffering is not my suffering. Their suffering hurts me. And is it connected with your thinking when you read, for example, in a newspaper? Is it connected to my thinking? Yeah. But I don't need to read the newspaper to feel it. But if I do read the newspaper, it can come through that way. It can arise with reading the newspaper. It can arise with anything. This crisis of suffering is interesting to me what you're saying because it's a kind of pertinent experience I'm having.

[37:08]

What seems to have occurred recently for me is that this is just the way I put it into terms. It's as if some aspect of this conflict reached a pitch where suddenly the question arose, go who? And the next of this, there's like, hang on. Who is it, actually? Now, people go looking for that. They just seem to do that. And I question to you, what happens next? Because right now, I feel happy on the cross because that much I've understood. I know. But now what I'm comprehend is that's just where I am. I know. Well, all right. But now I'm asking you, away from there, what's next? I know.

[38:13]

Well, thank you for the question. And so... So, ladies and gentlemen, what am I going to say to him? Huh? What? No next. No what next. Yeah, you see, if I can say that. St. Therese of Lejeune. Pardon? St. Therese of Lejeune once said, what is the use of writing colloquial things without suffering? that's all there is in a way with great respect that's not a useful answer to me because look I'm in it and thank you for saying that I'm asking you a real question and I'm saying unusefully I'm saying forget about what's next

[39:17]

In other words, have no recourse to your situation. Give up alternatives to this wonderful situation which you've just described. This is where practice happens. This is where you say you are. That's where it happens. And it happens when there's no recourse, no what next. What next in recourse and helpful things are expectations. They feed expectation and preference. So, if there's still a little bit of preference arising on the cross, you are forgiven. Just gradually try to drop expectation and drop what's next. drop alternatives and just suffer there with pain and perhaps, not necessarily, but if you've got a who there.

[40:21]

Right, so what you're saying is that this is actually pregnant still struggling to survive. Yeah, it sounds like it. Where it's directly fetish, giving that last... Yes. It's trying to mitigate this. Right, right, right. Okay, got it, thank you. You're welcome. And it's like that story, you know, what is it? Shrenzan, right? He says goodbye to Seppo. I'm going on a pilgrimage. Seppo says, bye-bye. Shrenzan starts walking down the hill, stubs his toe badly. And in the midst of extreme pain, he says, well, if there's no self, how come I'm in so much pain? But somehow he He didn't have any recourse to this pain plus this question. And so in that inability to find any recourse, well, he understood. But it's hard for us to give up all recourse, isn't it?

[41:27]

In the middle of pain, isn't it hard to sort of say, just a little bit better? When's this period going to end? How much more time is there? Should I do something to make things a little bit better for the next few seconds here? It's hard, that recourse, that alternative, that what next thing is very strong. Can you find that presence there in the middle of the pain? So right around the part in the Avatamsaka Sutra where it talks about the Buddha's not moving, it also says... This bodhisattva of whatever his name, something wisdom says, I'd rather be in the agony of hell and hear the name. I'd rather be in the agony of hell and have that presence of Buddha than be in boundless pleasure and not have that presence.

[42:29]

But when we're in pain of sesheen, not only are we trying to find the best posture which will evolve, posture will find itself in that pain. Mentally also we need to find that posture which isn't leaning into the future or into the past at all. And that's hard to find that posture, that mental posture, that no preference posture. But it is found if you can subject yourself to the situation. She wants to learn about intimacy.

[43:44]

It doesn't matter. And she says in Zazen, sitting in the Zendo, she finds it a little bit more accessible. But in work situations, and particularly in social situations, she has trouble, she has a hard time practicing intimacy. Is that right? Could you hear that? You understand that, don't you? Yeah. I heard that from many, many people. So that's why Sashin, with this pain, it's very easy to practice intimacy because you can feel that sense of always trying to squirm away. But when you're in a conversation, more subtle, you're also trying to squirm away or, you know, trying to control it and get it to go in a nice direction. Based on that, so how do you, in the middle of hell, remember this presence? Very difficult, isn't it? So, that's right. So it's very difficult. And so, as a kind of, what do you call it, Buddha kindergarten, we sometimes say, well, practice no idle chatter.

[44:58]

In other words, don't make it so hard for yourself to get into a conversation which is by definition about gain and preference. Just set those kinds of conversations aside and enter into these boring ones. You know, kind of like, here we are talking, and I'm not going to say anything to entertain myself. I'm not going to say anything clever. I'm not going to say anything witty. The situation is really heavy, and I'm not going to, like, tickle it up into something nicer. I'm going to, like, leave it alone. Yikes. Fortunately, you will. do something and I can go along with it so you can do it for me so I'll just sort of like that you do it it doesn't work either but it's slightly better probably then you tell the other person to knock it off but a conversation is very difficult very hard

[46:05]

There's so much expectation, like somebody says something, oops, I'm supposed to say something. I was supposed to be listening to them. But actually, I was just trying to stay present with equanimity, and I couldn't listen to them at the same time. So now they probably are really angry at me for being inattentive. I'm in trouble. But Red said this would probably happen. So I'm in trouble, but But nothing, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble, I'm in trouble, I'm in trouble with this person, I'm in trouble. Yeah, right, you're in trouble. How about facing it? And with no expectation it's gonna get better. Every conversation is trouble. Every conversation is trouble, but it's also an opportunity to not run away and show the other person that you love them.

[47:13]

Because you're not going to try to finagle your way out of the trouble, which is going to make you more trouble, but you can't get out of it. We've got a problem here. This is called patience. But in the middle of that is joy, too. There should be joy in the middle of every conversation. It's kind of hard, you know? So you say, yeah, but what about the easy conversations? Well, there really aren't any. If you can kind of face it, then you're just not going to have any easy conversations. I don't have that many easy conversations, believe it or not. So it's easy for me. Because almost all my conversations are hard. I feel like I'm kind of on the line with almost every conversation.

[48:21]

I've got to do my best. I've got to tell the truth. I've got to pay attention. I've got to not run away. I've got to give my full attention. And in some ways, I feel on the line to be both flexible and steadfast. Both. I can't be too rigid about being a good priest. I have to not take that too seriously, at least in my case, and yet be really sincere. I have to be sincere and not overly serious. I feel on the line to practice that way. And if I don't practice that way, I not only, well, I just feel bad. I feel ashamed of myself. And if I do practice that way, well, I'm on the line all the time. Every conversation is an opportunity to be kind and helpful.

[49:27]

Was I there for that? And I don't have to do that much to be kind or helpful. All I got to do is be present without any thinking. That's all. Just clearly aware. With no words reaching it. In the midst of all these words flying around. And if I'm practicing that way, then, you know, then if I'm in a social situation, I'm practicing that way, then I'm doing the practice. But it's hard. Yeah, well, so there you are. You're in trouble. Stuck in your room. You're in trouble in your room?

[50:32]

If you come outside, you're in trouble talking to people. Yeah, well, you will eventually. Zen priests are not supposed to stay in their room, you know, with no visitors indefinitely. Yeah, so you'll eventually come. There's Zazen. There's kinheen. There's service. There's meals. Gradually, people will say, Eleanor, come on. We need you. We need you. Come. Come. They'll come to your room. Say, oh, she's so cool, though. Let's go visit her. Look, she's in her room. She has no problems. Somebody at Zahara doesn't have any. Let's go see her. What's that like? So soon your room will be packed with people and you'll be sort of out in the street to get some breather. Let's other people first. Okay. Yes, Susan? Do you want to share a room?

[51:45]

You guys could live together to kind of warm up to normal life. Our society thinks people who are very outgoing and really good at chattering and being intimate. Right. And then both of us who are loudly at chit-chat and, you know, I'm just not good at that kind of talking are also seeing it a little wrong or not wanting to be intimate. And speaking to myself personally, that's what I did. I really like intimacy. You like intimacy. You like intimate conversation. You don't like superficial conversation.

[52:46]

It's hard on you to have that kind of conversation. Well, you do know how to do it if you don't like it. Don't you know how to do superficial conversation? Haven't you ever had one? But you're saying you don't like them, right? You do know how to do it. You just don't want to spend your life that way. I don't think you have to spend your life in superficial conversations that you don't think are appropriate. But that may mean that you have to go to your room. Yeah. So come out of your room when you're like lonely and with the intention of having an intimate conversation. And if you start having a conversation and it starts to get superficial and you lose your courage to be intimate with the person, then you made a mistake. You had an experiment. You came to have an intimate conversation. You veered away from it. Got into superficiality.

[53:47]

That's a trial. If you made a mistake, you learned. Try again and again. But your intention anyway is to have intimate conversations, to say the truth, to speak the truth. That's intimate. And pretty soon, in these superficial conversations, you'll start saying, you know, I got this problem. I'm starting to feel uncomfortable because I don't want to blame anybody, but I feel this conversation is getting painfully superficial. And I think I'm contributing to this. And now I feel better that I said that. That was at least a little bit true. So, little by little, you learn to make conversations more and more honest, more and more intimate, and you don't have to spend... All of us, I think, most of us, almost all of us, had enough superficial, dishonest conversations in this lifetime. We do not need to have any more. They don't really help anybody. We need to start having conversations where we say the truth,

[54:51]

That's not superficial, and that's intimate. It's not some profound thing necessarily, just like, you know, I'm uncomfortable. I have to go to the toilet. I'm bored. I'm, you know, I'm uneasy. These kinds of simple statements about what you already are feeling but are afraid to say, you know, I don't want to hurt you, but I'm feeling this way. This is not superficial. It may not be the most profound thing, but to step in that direction. After you say one true thing, you can say a more true thing and a more true thing. So it's better to stay in your room than come out and contribute to superficiality and wasting your time and somebody else's. But if you want to have, if you're lonely and you want to have an intimate conversation, well, go find somebody to have an intimate conversation with. Walk down the street and you see somebody say, excuse me, are you up for an intimate conversation? If they say yes, then go for it. Sit down. you know, and start talking the truth to each other, right here in this monastery.

[55:56]

And if the conversation starts out that way, good. If you start to veer away, catch yourself and say, oops, I'm slipping, excuse me, let's get back to the truth. So work on this. Everybody, please work on this. Make this place a place where we have truthful conversations and You know, we actually say what's going on with us in the spirit of loving kindness and being helpful, but... We don't need any more superficial conversation. We've had enough. I don't know who's next. Yes, he's... I'm really curious about humor. Yes? I think there's ways to use humor that is, you know, part of being truthful. But I guess my question is more about humor that's playful. It might even be silly or slack sticky. Well, excuse me, but to be strict with you, you just came up with the word use, okay?

[57:02]

I think if you use humor, it's probably superficial. And probably... not, you know, what do you call it, not honest. Basically, if you're having a conversation and you're even using language, it's not that honest. When you really talk honestly, you're not using the language, it's just coming out of you. It's like when you tell the truth, you don't use the truth. You just tell the truth. It's not that you use it. If you're using the truth, you're kind of like using it. The truth isn't yours to use. It's yours to tell. So by use, you mean to like produce some kind of effect? You said use. I did. Yeah. So if you say, if you're using humor, I think that's very, that's superficial. I myself, you know, some people laugh during my talks, but I'm not telling jokes. You just think I'm funny. You know, matter of fact, you think I'm funny. It's just when I'm just being myself. I don't use humor.

[58:04]

I just, you know, whatever, make people think I'm funny for some reason. So there is humor. And not that, but they're really happy that they can laugh at me. Because, oh, a big serious Zen priest, right? So it's nice you can laugh at him and nobody beats you up for it. You don't get kicked out of the monastery or the sashim. You can laugh all you want, as a matter of fact. They like that. And I'm happy for them, too. So I think that's a sign. There is humor, naturally. But if you're trying to make it happen, it's probably another escape from the truth. Which is, I'm uncomfortable and I'd like to tell a few jokes now, please. Or let's talk about something funny, because this is getting too intense. It's more, what next? Okay, here we are. Okay, now let's, you know, what next? Now what are we going to do? Well, we can't do that, so how about tell a joke? That's what I think about humor.

[59:07]

Okay. I understand. Okay. And if it just comes out of a feeling of whiteness or... Uh-huh. I mean, sometimes I... I ended up laughing with somebody and then wondered or felt even from the other, it's even been brought up verbally, was that right speech? Yes. And I guess, to me, I guess it could be either way. The question is, does it distract you from Buddha? Does it distract you from Dharma? Does it distract you from the presence without thinking? If it doesn't, it's right speech. If it does, it's Wrong speech. Wrong speech is speech that distracts you from your ultimate concern.

[60:14]

If you're a Buddhist, if you're into, like, saving people from this serious business of suffering and cruelty, then do you have a practice which faces the suffering? And when you're facing the suffering, you can laugh all you want. You know, like they say, you know, it's okay to tell jokes in Sarajevo. or used to be. Now the war is over, so maybe you can't do it anymore. But when things are really bad and you're facing it, you can laugh all you want. But when things are light, be careful. Maybe the laughter is like going from the lightness to distraction. So you get to judge. First of all, you get to judge. Does this distract me from my ultimate concern in life? If so, you caught yourself. Then if you don't catch yourself, then somebody else can catch you. And say, were you really there just then, Jane? And you get to say, well... Well, no, I wasn't.

[61:18]

I was kind of like out to lunch. But I'm back now, thank you. So you judge. Are you staying in this place... I'm always aware where no words reach. Are you in this mind like a wall? Are you equanimous in the midst of the world of suffering? If you are, if laughter comes, fine. Does it take you away? No. Fine. I was attracted to stories about Zen and laughing monks. But I didn't think these people were laughing in the middle of suffering. That's what they were laughing. They were laughing in their rotting bodies. they were aware of. They weren't laughing like in lightness and distraction. Okay. Yes. I want to go back to the end of when you were talking to Nigel. Yes. And there was a moment when Nigel got something from you that looked like it was an understanding of what was happening.

[62:18]

And it was really familiar to me as a relief. Yes. Understanding as a way out of suffering. Yes. Yes. I'm getting tired of understanding, of just using this teaching as a way to try to get out of the suffering, an understanding of the teaching, of some settling into, oh, that's what it is. And so how is the teaching, I know it's not just that, so how is it not just that? Well, in one sense, understanding, when you understand, in the context of Buddhist practice, when you understand, you do get out of suffering. Okay? But oftentimes you get out of suffering and go deeper into suffering. So wisdom is relieving. But there's different levels. So one level of wisdom makes you more able to be present in the situation you are. Like you might feel fairly present but still be a little bit into alternatives.

[63:23]

And then you understand the instruction of no alternatives and then you sink more fully into the present with no thinking. And there's a kind of relief from that level of suffering, which is suffering plus distraction. Now you're less distracted. Then there comes an understanding there, too, which relieves you of that level of suffering, and then you go deeper. And finally you get to a place where you get an understanding which relieves you of that suffering, and you don't go any deeper. You're actually, period, relieved of suffering. There is this thing of relief of suffering, and it comes with understanding. It is an understanding that sets you free from suffering. But there can be layers of that. And if it doesn't set you completely free, the understanding, then it sets you free from the level you experienced before so you can open to a more profound aspect. It can be a platform.

[64:29]

You can camp out. That's called Zen sickness. Case 11 of the Book of Serenity is talking about Zen sickness, which is these various places of attainment where you can camp out. More and more subtle kind of understandings which are more and more profoundly relieving and you can camp out at those various levels and the more subtle it gets the more dangerous it is to camp there because you get to a place where you're camping and everybody else thinks it's Buddhahood so almost no one can help you because it's like well this sounds perfect so you can camp there but even in the most perfect state in Buddhism You don't camp. You keep going. Always go beyond that state. Don't camp. Don't use, don't use, don't rest on your laurels. Continuous practice is the spirit. Yes, David. My experience with idle chatter is some kind of intimacy does come from idle chatter.

[65:37]

I've been thinking about it as far as even courtship or with dating. That's a lot of idle chatter. David's saying that his experience is that sometimes intimacy comes out of idle chatter, and I would say that if intimacy comes out of idle chatter, it's not idle chatter. It's not idle chatter if it produces, if it is a source of intimacy. Like for me, you know, here, you know, people don't talk to me about certain things usually, right? But if I do talk to them about those things, oftentimes those could be an opportunity for intimacy because I don't usually talk about, they're not my usual thing. But if I talk to people about them, sometimes it creates a feeling of relaxation and ease where we can open up to something really difficult to face. So the quote, the topic, you know, baseball or, you know, the latest TV shows or something like that, these topics are not per se idle chatter.

[66:43]

The question is, does it take you away from what's happening? Is it going towards or away from intimacy? Even to use Buddhism, which sometimes people do, come in and say, okay, I'm going to talk about emptiness now, right? Or the two truths, or zazen. You can use that topic and veer away from intimacy. Rather than say, you know, I'm scared of you, you say, okay, Nagarjuna said blah, blah, blah, rather than, I'm scared of you. Which is kind of, you know, it doesn't sound as profound. But in fact, what's really going on is you're scared and you're using Nagarjuna to hide your fear from somebody. So the content that sponsors intimacy is not idle chatter. And the content, even if it's strictly speaking, bona fide Buddhist talk, if it takes you away from intimacy and is not really true to the point, it's idle chatter.

[67:44]

Okay? Okay? You can work with it. Great. Sarah? I'm going to go over this side. They've probably been ignoring people over here. Samantha? You think he's next? Okay. Let's go. Let's go. So it's... Please. One of my fears about people always telling them the truth is that it's incredibly superficial and actually takes them away from the moment. And often telling the truth can be an indulgence, a self-indulgence practice of neurosis. And so you say tell the truth, but actually telling the truth could be taking you so far away from the intimacy of the moment. But what the moment needs is... Could you give me an example, okay? Let's say I have an issue around...

[68:48]

Okay, it's all right. Yes. Yes. So you're sitting at the table with somebody and they say, what? They say, I'm scared of you? For the two days, for them at the moment, what they need is to be fed around this truth, but in fact, it's not. So they say, so this person says, for example, you're sitting at a table with somebody and they say, I'm scared of you. And you feel like that, maybe you feel like that's superficial. Because then they go on, they're saying I'm scared of you, so they want to just come into the conversation and bring in their truth. is that I have an eating disorder, for example.

[69:55]

Yeah, so they do that, and you feel like that's superficial. Yeah, I do. Okay, so then what do you say? So what do I say? Yeah. I say, well, great, out of you. Is that what you said? Is that the truth? I'm making this up at the moment. Well, you don't have to get personal. I'm just saying, you know, Do you want me to? Well, I can do it for you if you don't want me to. I mean, if you don't want to do it. If somebody says to me, you know, goes out of their way to talk and they say, I'm afraid. And if I feel like that's not really what they mean, I might say, well, excuse me, do you want to have an intimate conversation with me? And they might say, yes. I say, well, somehow I feel like that's not really what you mean to say. Am I right? I mean, I feel like that's sort of beside the point. I feel like you have something else to say to me. that's the truth okay so so you so [...] martin if you don't want to go through it what shall we do yeah you know you and me you and me are you and me are talking right now so what shall we do

[71:15]

So maybe you could say, excuse me, but may I suggest that you eat your dinner and I suggest that I don't want to talk to you about this. I don't want to talk to you about your eating disorder at the end of the night. Yes, but Reb also told me to tell you how I felt. And in all good spirit, I'm trying to honestly say I'd rather not talk about this. Is that all right with you? Well, you know, it's okay for you to say that. I think you're right. I think that's right. It won't go away just because I don't want to talk about it. I agree with you. I think you can say to the first, if they say something that you feel is not for Europe to talk about, I think it's fine for you to in the spirit of loving kindness to say, you know, I'd rather not talk about this at dinner.

[72:18]

It's upsetting my stomach for me to talk about your eating disorder. Are you going to like barf now or something? You know, so I think, I think, I think that, yeah, right. So, I mean, I think it's fine for you to say how you feel in response to them. If they're coming up with this stuff, Who knows? But you have your side, which is, you know, I feel uncomfortable about talking about this at the table. Could you maybe talk to somebody else about it another time? Could we talk about something else? Could we just eat, please? You know, I think it's fine for you to say that. Right, but there is a way. I mean, I accept that. It is a good idea. It's hard. I mean, take it. There's a certain superficiality that allows that discourse to come. That's all right. That's just hurting that person too much. Well, wait a second. You said there's a certain level of superficiality that allows the discourse to go on without hurting that person too much.

[73:21]

Yes, and I think that just happened in this conversation we just had. There was a certain level of superficiality, and I don't think either one of us got particularly hurt. And at the same... But when you say that, when you say that, it's getting a little bit deeper there. Which is fine with me. Now there's a level of non-superficiality that's letting us, I think, go even deeper without hurting each other. Yeah. It was a spirit. Yeah. So let's really talk, you know, and let's have Martin really say what he feels. Teacher. Teacher. Why do the hands of Avalokiteshra have an eye in the palm? Why do the hands of Avalokiteshra have an eye in the palm?

[74:27]

Why? Why do they have an eye in the palm? So you can hear. So you don't hurt someone. Yes. And I think Gordon is making a good point here. Sometimes what comes out of people when they're trying to be honest is just primary process junk. Yeah. Stuff like, I hate your fucking guts. Yeah. And, you know, next thing you've got a dead body in front of you. Yes. And there's also skill. Yeah. So the eye has to be open. So you may have this feeling, I hate this person. Yes. Then there are other things happening. Oh, I didn't intend that. That's it. In the spirit of loving kindness. Well, then, but that might mediate what comes out, yes? Is that food? Mediate? You mean like mixing bread? No, it doesn't, I don't think it mediates it. I think it is the source of it.

[75:28]

But I didn't say, bring loving-kindness in to mediate what you have to say. I said, if what you say is in the spirit of loving-kindness, from the spirit of loving-kindness. I don't want to use loving-kindness as a mediation, as a guard. I want to use it as a source. So I think that what Martin was just talking about just now was coming from loving-kindness. Therefore, it didn't hurt me. And when I responded to him, it was coming from loving-kindness. So that's basic. It's basic. Loving kindness is the basis of right speech. So it's honesty that comes from loving kindness, not honesty, which is coming from hate. And I'm going to bring some loving kindness in to show the deflect. So the kitchen is leaving. But several people have their hands raised. Yeah, so a bunch of people had their hands raised and the kitchen's leaving. What shall we do? Answer the questions that are non-table, which is Sarah, Samantha, who else?

[76:36]

Eric? Anybody else? Those three? Is that okay? Can we do those three? Is that okay with kitchen? Can we do those three? Okay, so I think maybe... Let's do Samantha, Sarah, and Eric. Outflow is, for example, expectation. So I help you with an expectation that you will get better. And then you don't. So then I feel a little bit weakened. I help you again with the expectation that you get better. I get a little bit weakened. I help you 20 times with the expectation that you'll get better. And I'm wiped out. And I say, that's it for Samantha.

[77:37]

I mean, I put so much love and energy into her and she didn't get any better. I'm like, I got to stay away from her. She's like dangerous for me. But it's not that she's dangerous for me. It's just that when I see her, I want to help her, which is fine. but I also have expectation that my help's gonna have an effect which drains me. And if I have 20 interactions like that in a fairly short period of time, I'm gonna be totally wiped out and I'm gonna have to stay away from you because when I'm with you, I get into this outflow, this drain. But the drain's set up by my expectation, by my expectation of gain. So for bodhisattvas who want to help people, they have to end outflows. So like it says in the Blue Cliff Record, page 101, we let go, we Zen people let go of the ultimate and join hands with all beings and walk through birth and death with them. How can we do this? Because we end outflows of gain and loss, of existence and non-existence.

[78:42]

So a lot of people have outflows, but they don't notice it, partly because they're not in a situation where they repeat it often enough in a short enough period of time that they can register the loss of energy. That's another example why Sashi is nice, because in a short period of time, like in a couple of periods of Zazen, you wish many times, you have some expectation, a hundred times in a period, you can see how bad that is, how hard that is on you. Whereas a lot of times you're switching around so much you don't notice the consequences of your outflows. So we have to end outflows. In other words, we have to be compassionate with no outflow. We have to work for the welfare of others with no expectation. Just pure good wishes with no expectation. Then we can keep working. You have to eat, though, to keep getting carbohydrates.

[79:46]

You're operating on physical energy and love, not an expectation, which drains you. Yes? Sarah? What I mean was, you don't say, I know this is going to end as an expectation. In fact, whatever pain you're in, unity will end. In fact, it will. No matter how bad it is, it's going to end. So that can be a kind of like a little soothing thing you give to yourself. But if you get an expectation, although you're right that it will end, you're draining yourself by that expectation. So you're going to be less able to be present there for the phenomena of impermanency. So don't use impermanence as an excuse for outflow, is what I'm saying.

[80:54]

Is there a way to be completely still where all you're seeing is the conflict? Yes. That's what it means to really see impermanence, is that you're present there. without thinking and observing the impermanence of phenomena. And when you see that, that's one of the ways that thought of enlightenment is born, is to set a real clear vision of impermanence with no gaining idea around it. Yes. Two questions, but I don't chatter. It seemed like at the beginning of practice, you pushed one of this admonition against it, or to watch it at least. It seemed like you were almost encouraging people that if conversation, you know, this wasn't happening, just basically walk away from it. At least that's the take I had on it. And I even had a question about it. It just didn't seem right to me. But now it seems like you're encouraging people to...

[81:56]

you know, encourage them to fear it towards, well, white speech, but to, you know, stay there, at least. If nothing else, to be at, what, ground zero, no speech at all, that's still prohibited. Yeah, right. Yeah, it seems like we've gone through the whole very discreetness. I've already had a couple of instances where people just walk away, you know, in a very kind way. Okay, the second question has to do with, you know, you know, reels, you know, we're, they're glad Mark brought up the idea of, of rooms, his example, initialized, but it seems like that's the format of storms in the dining room. The format is island shatter?

[82:58]

You mean you feel that idle chatter sometimes manifests at the communal meals in the dining room? Yeah, and that's a good thing. Basically it's a good thing. It's kind of a relief from all this heavy stuff that we do. Well, if it's a relief from all this heavy stuff we do, and you think it's a good thing, what's the problem? you're encouraging us to avoid idle chatter? Yes. Do you think idle chatter is a good thing? I'm saying idle chatter is not a good thing. So, since I'm saying it's not a good thing, I'm encouraging you to abandon not good things. Right? But if you're saying it's a good thing, then I would say, fine.

[84:00]

So, if you say it's good, then I would say, fine. I say such and such not good, abandon it. So, was there some problem? Anybody see the problem? What, yes? Well, I'm wondering about recreation. What is recreation? Well, literally recreation means recreation, right? So I think a really healthy recreation is to get in touch with creation. By what? By practicing presence which has no thinking around it. That's how you get in touch with creation. Well, it can sound like El Achata, it can sound whatever you want, but anyway, it's, you know, it's the mind of Buddha.

[85:13]

That's recreation. It's kind of hard to be having a conversation and be monitored, monitoring what you're saying. I can imagine that would be quite hard, but that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that you practice presence, okay? Which is without thinking. And that from that place, you know, you realize this is called equanimity, okay? And this is also connected to loving kindness, compassion, and joy. So here you are sitting with loving kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity, okay? This is no longer monitoring, okay? This is now, words that come from this place are beneficent. You don't have to monitor. Now, if you're not practicing loving kindness and you're not practicing compassion and you're not practicing joy and you're not practicing equanimity, you don't have to monitor exactly.

[86:17]

You just need to do those practices. But if you're doing those practices, then you don't have to monitor anymore. What comes out of you is loving-kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity. You can see now what's going on. Your speech is not idle chatter. You tell the truth and it brings benefit to beings. It helps people, but not because you're monitoring it, but because it's coming from love which has no gaining idea. It doesn't drain you. It doesn't drain them. It's great. This is what I'm recommending. Leslie? Well, I thought what you said to David was really helpful to me about if it leads to intimacy, then it's not an idle chatter. If it leads away from intimacy, then it is. Right. Which maybe goes back to some kind of monitoring to notice or some kind of noticing if I find myself averting from intimacy.

[87:24]

It's a kind of monitoring, but he's talking about monitoring while you're talking. You're talking about reviewing the consequences. Yeah. Notice, being willing to notice. Yeah. And make a shift. Right. So anyway, the core of what I'm talking about is really, there's no kind of like words in there to check it. When you veer away, then you can notice, because there's words all over the place then. You're smattered with words. So then you've got words like, well, whatever they are, right? And you feel, if you're checking, you're checking and finding not much intimacy. But, you know, we said, you know, three questions and now it's getting into more than three. And how's the kitchen doing, Andy? We have this kind of like problem, you know, that... Well, then the kitchen's gone. So just except for Andy, who maybe has a day off or something, they're, do you have a day off? Or are you just boycotting the kitchen?

[88:33]

It's kind of a dilemma, but I feel to pay respect to the kitchen, we should not go on too long without them. Sorry. I appreciate your questions and, you know, Getting pretty close to perfect understanding here, it looks like. I don't think you know, but I don't think you know, [...] I don't think you know

[89:50]

I would like to invite my group to share it now. The liberation is how I'm going to bring it so I'm still going. I'm going to take a look at this table corner. [...] I'm going to take a look at it. So, excuse me, but I really am talking about, you know, being present. Just a presence, okay? That no words reach. But even though no words reach it, I want to say some words that won't reach it. Okay? The Buddha said it. If you have something to say, and it's not true, and it's harmful, don't say it. If you have something to say and it's not true, and it's harmless, don't say it.

[90:54]

If you have something to say that's truthful and harmful, don't say it. If you have something to say which is harmless and truthful, wait for the right moment. He was strict. And there are some times that might happen.

[91:15]

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