Some people have found this story to be the first one they've had trouble with. So we read the story, but a young Toh came to describe a threshold like that and said, it's ordinary or holy, and Deshawn immediately shouted and then Yangtze bowed. And then later Dongshan said, When he heard about this, he said, anyone but Yan To would hardly get it. And then Yan To heard about that and said, old Dongshan doesn't know good and bad.

[01:03]

At that time, I was holding up with one hand and putting down with one hand. And then in the commentary, it tells another story about Deshan and Yanto.

[02:12]

Deshan apparently was standing in front of the hall, and Yanto came up the stairs and spread his mat in front of the teacher, Deshan, and Deshan pushed his vowing mat down the stairs with his staff, And Yento went down and gathered up his mat and went off. And the next day, he went up and stood next to Deshan. And Deshan said, where did you learn this empty-headedness? And Yento said, I never fool myself. And Deshan said, later on, you will shit on my head. And when the father hears the son is strong, he regrets not being killed himself.

[03:13]

And the way one person read that last week is he doesn't regret being killed when he hears that his son is strong. And I think that's a reasonable interpretation, but... I looked at the Chinese and it looks more like when the father hears the son is strong, the father is kind of jealous. Which is more in lines of the father regrets not being killed himself. Only when one surpasses the teacher is one capable of passing on the transmission. And this section, in some sense, refers back to case 13. Remember that one? Do you know that one?

[04:23]

No. Well, somebody want to be, somebody know this? Somebody want to be Lin Ji or Shan Shan? Anybody? Anybody want to? Come on, sit here. So this is a story about Rinzai, Linji, who was noted for shouting at people and shaking them. And sometimes they woke up when he did that. In other words, that was a method of teaching people that he developed somehow. So I'll be Rinzai and you can be San Sheng.

[05:28]

Okay? Okay. So Rinzai's getting old, right? And, I mean, he is old and he's about to die. And he says to his disciple, after I pass on, I don't destroy my treasury of true Dharma eyes. How dare I destroy the teacher's treasury of the Eye of Truth. Later on, if somebody comes up to you and suddenly asks, you know, what was it or what is it, what will you say? Not yet. Who would have thought that my treasury of true Dharma eyes would perish with this blind ass?

[06:30]

So that was the Dharma transmission between them. Thank you. Thank you. And some people... Some people looking at that story felt that that shout that San Sheng made ended all shouting. That was the end of shouting. He put an end to Rinzai's teaching was shouting. And he shouted, and that destroyed the teacher's teaching. There was no more shouting after that. The rest of the shouting was basically mostly copying an ancient paradigm. he shit on the teacher's head he surpassed the teacher using the teacher's own medium and in one sense uh you know zen rhetoric one of the characteristics of zen rhetoric in other words one of the ways zen teachers try to be in you know make a real effect in their speech is to speak ironically so uh

[07:50]

But irony is, well, anyway, he calls him a blind ass. And he also says his teaching has been destroyed by this blind ass. Well, blind ass is in one sense, of course, an insult, but in an ironic sense, it's a great compliment. But still, I feel that there's some pain there. The teacher is a little bit jealous of this strong son. He's dying, and there's something about human nature that is a little bit sorry to be succeeded by the next generation which is alive as you're getting stronger. There's something to that, which is in this story too. I feel that way. I know people have a hard time understanding this, but I propose that to you. as a possibility.

[08:54]

Surpassing your teacher is not necessarily a pleasant thing for either party. And when I think about it, I wonder, you know, it's pretty hard for somebody to be a teacher and to be sincere enough that someone would want to study with him or her thoroughly enough to really learn their way. And then that such a devoted person would even make the effort out of necessity to surpass the teacher. And if that happened, the teacher, in one sense, would know that she was a success and be happy. But it would also be painful. And I wonder how many times a person could stand that.

[10:03]

That's why it's so amazing that Bajan, I mean Yamatsu, had 139 disciples. Has he surpassed by 139 disciples? Can you imagine? having 139 disciples learn your way and surpass you? I think it only hurts the first big time. Why does surpassing get hurt? Well, because it destroys your way. How so? It makes it obsolete. What? It makes it eternal, that's true. It doesn't contradict it, though. Your teaching is always in there. That's right, your teaching is always in there, that's true. It actually keeps it alive. It makes it eternal. It keeps it alive. There's no diminishing.

[11:10]

And it's destroyed. And if it isn't destroyed, it is diminishing. If it isn't destroyed, what is it? It's like a piece of ice or something. Not even a piece of ice. It's like, because ice even melts or it gets harder or softer. It's not real. In a sense maybe there isn't really a teaching until it's surpassed. In other words you're saying the student takes it on as their own. Well, they take it on, and then they destroy it, and then they make their own.

[12:11]

It's like we were talking about last week, about you take it in, you chew it up. Digestion is a kind of destruction of what you take in. You can't make it your own unless you crush it down. And also, you can't receive it unless you crush yourself down. That's another part of it. So the student, in order to really receive it, has to kind of like pound him or herself into dust. Then you really have a mouth. And then with that mouth, which is a very adaptable mouth because you have given up your own self-clinging, you can chew up the teaching and make it into this new thing. But it's difficult to let go of yourself, and then it's not difficult to receive the teaching. The teaching you naturally receive when you do your own work of being yourself and dropping yourself.

[13:18]

But then, after you receive the teaching, you have to chew it up. And that's somewhat painful for the teacher. And if it isn't painful for the teacher, I think there's something missing. It's too simple. It's too nice. It's not real. It misses something about human nature. And the fact that it's painful is what makes it eternal. Does the pounding have something to do with the 30 blows? With the beatings? No, the 30 blows is when you're not pounding. Is to get? The 30 blows, when the student doesn't pound, then the teacher pounds the student. Yes. But when the student's pounding, you don't have to pound. What about 30 blows? 30 blows means that you're encouraged to not go anyplace, to not move. Like this guy, Dushan, was famous for 30 blows. He said, he came up to people and he said, if you speak, you get 30 blows.

[14:22]

If you don't speak, you get 30 blows. In other words, both speaking and not speaking can be running away from yourself. So that's Deshan, this guy here. Okay, well, here's another story. How about that things are not killed? Pardon? How about that things are killed? How about it? Yeah, and you don't really... kill or lose the teaching, that there is no such thing as actually being killed. Life is not killed, you mean? Yeah. There you go. Somewhere. Life is not killed. Life is not killed, that's right. And because life is not killed, your teaching can be killed by the next generation. It can be But it's not killed, again, it's not really killed, it's made eternal, but it has to be destroyed.

[15:25]

It has to be, you know, pulverized. It had to be made obsolete. Which we call that destroying it. In this case 13, it's called destroying it. Are we just talking about teaching methods or the teaching... I kind of like to think about the teaching as having one flavor or no flavor, and yet there are all these different teaching methods. So, today that a student makes a teacher's teaching, I don't know what we're talking about. Are we talking about the teacher's methods? Maybe the teacher's methods, yeah, right. So, but teaching, is there a difference between the teacher's methods and teaching? Well, the flavor of the teaching is said to be freedom. And you can't say what freedom is, right? Otherwise it wouldn't be freedom.

[16:26]

Actually, you can say whatever you want about it. Right, so a student really won't make a teacher's teaching obsolete and medicine. How can they? What do you understand when I talk about this surpassing? What does surpassing mean, do you think? I look at it as evolution. The teachers help the student to enlightenment, and he's evolved. He's made the teacher's teaching obsolete. He's evolved beyond the teaching. But it doesn't mean the teaching is dead. It means that he's gone beyond it. The teaching still exists in its obsolete form. Other people would take advantage of it whenever they staged it. Yeah. So other people can come and use the obsolete teaching and make it... They can come and use the teaching which was obsolete for the successor.

[17:28]

Right. And then they can make it. So many people can make it obsolete. Maybe that's why Matsu could stand it to be done over and over. Because it still worked for somebody else who had not yet... received it, and crunched it up, and made it obsolete. The reason why they made it obsolete is not because the teaching itself is obsolete, but because they now have the teaching which has been converted into their body. So now there's new things coming out of them, right? Which is more, which is their thing. What is this, Kosho? Kosho? Kosho. Right. Well, then it says that... This question is referred to everywhere as the state of straddling the gate, but he did not necessarily actually straddle the gate to ask at first. In olden times, an outsider concealed a live sparrow in his hand and asked the Buddha, is the sparrow in my hand alive or dead?

[18:33]

The Buddha straddled the gate with his feet and asked, tell me, am I about to leave or enter? Am I about to leave or enter? Some people have been talking about this lately. The question is, is this ordinary or holy? Truly contained in this principle? Okay, now there's a story. I'd like to act this out again, okay? So, who wants to be Lin Jee? You don't want to be Linji? Nobody wants to be Linji? Big responsibility. Who wants to be Linji? Okay, you need to stay there. Who wants to be the old, decrepit Heian? You want to be Heian?

[19:39]

It's an easy part. Come over here and sit by Linji. And who will be Muta? Nobody wants to be... Muta, come and sit with these guys. But act like you're real old, okay? You don't need a copy. You don't need a copy. You two guys can really be spontaneous. Yeah, man, you don't have to say any words. But if you want to say something, go ahead. Okay. But they didn't say anything in the story. So you guys are sitting in the monks hall warming your hands and stuff. You're sitting around a little fire pit here. Okay, and you're in China now, in the Tang Dynasty. You two are quite old.

[20:40]

You're probably about 45. 46? Thank you. Okay, so you tell them something. You know what you tell them? You say, you say, he's walking around the streets acting like a lunatic dick. Who knows if he's ordinary or holy? He said, these guys. You know, Pua, walking around the street, I'm thinking, really crazy. If he's ordinary or holy? What do you think? And I'm Pourois, okay?

[21:53]

Is this ordinary or holy? He-Yang is a young bride. Muta is a Zen granny. This young punk, this young pisser, has an eye. So thief. Thief, thief! What's that about? These are two old guys. So, pretty simple, right?

[23:11]

On one level, two old guys, Puhua walks up and says, okay, this ordinary and holy, he shouts, he says, he's a new bride, why did he call him a new bride? A young bride. I think maybe it was a reaction because of the way they react and characterize the reactions to that interaction. How did he act? Maybe surprised and troubled. Did you? I don't know. You should have looked at him. Did this one act like an old Zen granny? Yeah. I've seen it all before. This young guy's got an eye.

[24:15]

This young guy, Rinzai's got an eye. Why do Rinzai call Kuhua a thief? He stole his eyes. He talked too much. I mean, why did Rinzai... I mean, why did Puhua say... Who was he talking about when he said... When he walked off? Mutual thievery. Mutual thievery? Do you agree? No. But only because I'm uncertain.

[25:17]

I don't know, you know. Yeah, well, it's fine. Thanks for coming. Okay, thanks for having me. Okay. Then it says, later, this guy named Shoshan said, of these two thieves, there is a real thief. Tell me, which is the real thief? And he then, he answers, he speaks for us, he says, Liu Benji, which is the person who was installed, the second, who was the successor, of a usurper of the throne. And how did we think about that last week? Was there a usurper in this case? Hmm?

[26:23]

Who's the usurper? Linji? Huh? My amazing servant. I mean, Benji is the person in here is the second. Right. Yeah, so who's the usurper in the story here? Benji. Benji is the usurper? And who is the successor of the usurper? Benji. No. Who was? No, who was. The successor of Benji. No, I guess. Wait, which one is ordinary and which one is only? Who said that? Who said that? Oh, Herb said that. Do you think Lin G is the usurper? And who is the successor of the usurper?

[27:26]

Who are you? Yeah. He says that the real thief is the successor of the usurper, right? You know what he's saying? That's what this later guy says, that the successor of the usurper, the successor of the first thief is the real thief. Who's the first thief? Who's the second thief? I'm not sure. The statue? The statue? The statue is the second thief or the first thief? The first thief. Who's the second thief? Cool. Okay, well, you've got some work to do here, don't we? Shall we go on? No.

[28:26]

Okay. thinking about this. Because last week, I saw, I thought of a interpretation in this, and I said anything about when Pua says, Heim is a new bride, and Muta is old lady child, along with the little kisser of Vinji. After all, they have one eye. That's That sounds, to me, my interpretation of that was a pretty straightforward insult. The Lou Pisser of Lin-Gee sounds like he's talking about his matter, and he's saying, between the three of them, I have one eye. And that's very... And I don't understand why that is, but that's what it sounds like to me. And it's like it's very... sarcastic, as though he's mocking him. And, you know, as though he surpassed him. And then Linji says, this old thief, which seems to be, sounds like it could be, as though he's stealing the teachings, taking the teaching.

[29:35]

And then Puella, the whole thing, thief, thief. And I don't understand that either, but that first part, it seems to, The interaction, my interpretation is different. I don't understand it. Well, one understanding is what you're stealing is you're stealing, he's stealing the teaching, right? He's stealing the truth. Okay. So, one understanding is this guy, this Pu Hua, comes in and steals the truth from Lin Ji. And again, part of what's being alluded to is stealing the teaching from your teacher. That you take possession of it and leave the other people with nothing. So maybe...

[30:36]

And so they call you a thief when you go off with it. And then you can say, yes, I'm a thief, I got it, see you later. And there's a number of stories actually between these two guys where Rinzai calls this guy an ass and calls him a thief. These guys have these, these are real wild characters, these two guys. I mean, I shouldn't say they're real wild, they sound wild. So maybe as Puhal walks away, he's saying mockingly. Thief. Thief. Yeah. He's mocking once again, because it seems as if he's the first statement he's doing that. It seems as if the whole time he got rid of it. Right. And he also says, as I mentioned last week, he says, they have an eye. Either they, this group of three people, they have either an eye, one eye, or they have the eye.

[31:41]

So there's a dynamic there that he's either saying that they have the eye, or he's saying they have only one eye. Now, in either case, he could be stealing the eye from them. If he comes in and says, okay, I'm calling the shots, you guys got an eye, they can say, you're a thief, he's taking charge. Or you can say, you only have one eye and he stole the other one. So they're left with either one of two eyes, or he says, oh yes, you people have the eye, but still he steals it, he steals something. And again, these eyes are Dharma eyes we're talking about, right? Which again refers back to case 13. Why do these people talking like this? What's this got to do with saving all sentient beings and stuff like that? And what state are these people in to have conversations like this? Yes?

[32:43]

If the student surpasses the teacher, is he... Yeah, yeah. It's OK to steal the Dharma. That's one thing it's OK to steal. You can steal the truth. Yes, Stuart? Well, one of the things that I that I think may be referred to here is the story of the succession of Hwaynam and the equation of the physical Roman bull with transmission of the teachings and the sense that Hwaynam was an interloper and got away with the transmission and people chased him. to get back the transmission and store it to a legitimate lineage. And this is the succession of themes. This is the lineage of the Steelers of the .

[33:44]

Yes. I would think the attitude is, it's just, you're just being good natured and you're sort of cooking. This whole question of transmission, essentially, sort of poking fun at the idea that there's something being transmitted from one person to the other, whether there's something that is being stolen. Because there's something about thievery. You know, you take possession of something, but it's not really yours. So I think it just sort of came out with good-nature shock. but this whole sense of taking possession of the teaching. Yes. Why the term stealing? Well, I didn't actually say stealing. I said thief. What thief? I think I said the word steal. It's not actually in the story. But why is that used? Why isn't just assuming the truth or learning the truth rather than stealing or thieving

[34:51]

I mean, thief. You think stealing? I mean, it's one thing you could take from that. Yeah, we got it. So why does he call him a thief? It's like you can't say sentient thief unless you're willing always to be robbed. Truth's presumption is to take the Dharma and to think that it's yours. I'm interested in what the politics of the country in China about on that they have no effect on the government itself. Is that a question? Because he talked about the Christopher of the Hamid dynasty. I think my interpretation is that's That would be like if we were having an interchange here now, and something kind of interesting happened between us, and then somebody would make an allusion to Dan Quayle or something.

[36:02]

Because we're kind of like, right now, we're kind of like, some of us can almost imitate Ross Perot, and particularly he can imitate him. But we can sort of, what? I wouldn't say it has no effect at all because I think right now our practice here I think directly relates to politics in the sense that if we don't do our work then the political ills and the ills of our society are partly generated from our faulty practice. So if we don't understand the precepts, then I think we can probably see how our misunderstanding or our unwillingness to face who we are is a characteristic of our entire society. Our unwillingness to feel the pain of our lives in our little world that we live in here

[37:12]

and the people we interact with, our unwillingness to face that pain is then analogous to the unwillingness of this entire society to face its pain, right? To the extent of... That's right, yeah. This was in contemporary politics. You're talking about something that happened about 500 years, But still, I think what's going on here is that it's just an illusion. It's not like they're worried about this. I think that the issue of practice does affect politics, but I don't think that the politics affect the practice. in the sense that I think no matter what the politics are, the practice is basically the same. Namely, no matter what politics are going on, people are suffering.

[38:15]

And if the Buddhist practitioners don't face their suffering, then their contribution to the politics is that they're conveying cowardice, denial, escapism, and basically not seeing the truth. So if we don't do our work, there's political ramifications of that. And the politics affect us, but I think the main thing that, for me, it seems like the effect of American politics on us is basically forcing us all the more to practice. I don't think the politics are like, what I don't know how to put it it's not like the nature of the politics make any difference to us it's just the pain of the situation that's I think promoting and encouraging our practice and if we do our work it affects the politics but I think this is in a case where it would be like an allusion to George Washington or Abraham Lincoln or McKinley or something like that just sort of some colorful image to characterize what's going on right now in our room here

[39:24]

That's the way I would read this. Because, again, as Stuart said, this is in the Tang Dynasty, and they're talking about the Han Dynasty, which is 600 years before these guys. But the images, it would be a very famous image. It would be something like saying something about what? What's 600? Yeah, or literally, it would be more like, what happened 600 years ago? It's not iconic. Or maybe some allusion to Agincourt or something like that. Why it was like Henry V beating those French nobles out there in Agincourt or something like that. Or it'd be like Henry V marrying Charles' daughter. Like that. That would be a kind of similar thing.

[40:25]

But let's go on. We have some other stuff here. I think what's happening here, and I'm not sure, is that there's the Blue Cliff Record, the Book of Serenity. And the Blue Cliff Record is compiled by two people, and the Book of Serenity is compiled by two people. The Blue Cliff Record is compiled by... and . And also compiled another and made commentaries on it, which is called the measuring gap. But we don't have a translation of that. So part of what they're referring to in this commentary is they're going to the measuring gap and getting some commentaries. This case is in the measuring gap. So he's going to that other collection and he's pulling his comments in here. So Yan Tao asked, is this ordinary or holy?

[41:32]

Deshan immediately shouted, it was like sizing up and matching Linji. In other words, it was like Pu Hua sizing up and matching Linji. When Yan Tao bowed, this too was like Little pisser of Linji, after all, has an eye. Yanto's bow to the teacher, Deshan, was like Pu Hua's calling Linji a little pisser. That's the parallel of these two cases. OK. And then Swaydu says, at that point, as soon as he bowed, to have hit him right on the spine would not only have cut off Dungshan, but would have held old Yunto still.

[42:47]

And then the commentator here says, this gets at the same thing as Linji's saying, old thief. However, in the story we have here, he didn't do anything. You see? Can you follow this? He didn't hit him on the spine. So the stories are going forward like this, you know. One says, is it ordinary and holy? The other one says, is it ordinary and holy? Right? Stories are the same. The next phase is they shout in both cases. In the next case, one guy says, this is a new bride, this is an old granny, and Linji's a little pisser but has an eye. In the other case, he bowed. That's a parallelism. But then, in the first story, that's the end of the story. He didn't then hit him on the spine and stop him. Dungshan didn't hit him on the spine and stop him, but if he had, that would have stopped him, and it also would have stopped Dungshan from saying anything.

[43:54]

In the second story, however, Linji shouted, and that stopped him, and also stopped anybody else from making any comments. Now, I would guess this is kind of hard to follow what this is about. right? You're getting kind of lost, aren't you? So, looking in class early. What? It is about different styles of teaching techniques, that's right. So, And it's hard to follow this, I think. You have to use your imagination quite intensively to follow this. But I think I would say, you know, that what these... If this book is consistent, if this book of Serenity is consistent,

[45:10]

And if they went to the trouble of writing down these words for a consistent purpose rather than just trying to fill in space, then what's going on here is they're trying to actually draw you into a process of liberation, a process of actual insight. And you have to make quite a bit of effort to draw yourself into this process by reading this story. You have to think about, in the first place, I think you kind of have to put yourself in the position of, can you imagine yourself, or can you imagine someone coming up to you and saying, is this ordinary or holy? You have to kind of like try that on. Does that way of talking, can you have any resonance or transference to that kind of talk? If you can't, then from right off, the story is not going to draw you into your own process of insight.

[46:17]

And it seems like, you know, so that's the first question, whether you can do that. Now that I imagine most of you could do. And then imagine whether you could, how you'd feel if you were shouted at, try to take both sides of the story too, how you'd feel if you were shouted at, and also work at if you could shout and why you would shout at that point. Yes? I have a question. Do you think this is, is it possible to be drawn into this process without some type of scholarship? And the reason I ask, is because you mentioned the thing about the father and the son, the father regretting his own death. The father being kind of jealous of his wonderful son.

[47:21]

Yeah, this struck me as something that could be in a good way. No. You have to learn these words. You have to make the effort to learn these words and see what they mean. If you're going to learn a meditation instruction, you have to learn what the words mean. That's the beginning of the story. The beginning of the story is people are probed with words. Water is probed with a stick. And you probe other people, and other people probe you, and you probe yourself with words. And you have to figure out what these words are about. Somehow you have to get into that. You may need some assistance with some of these illusions about what they're talking about. But basically, to that level of scholarship, you have to do it. The beginning of Buddhist insight is scholastic. In other words, it's dealing with stuff you hear.

[48:22]

It's dealing with words. You have to learn words in order to set yourself free from the words that are buzzing around in your head. And so this is an example of words to draw yourself into your own process and to think about whether or not you can Imagine that asking a question, either you or somebody else asking the question, is this situation right now that we're in in this world, is this ordinary or holy? That's the question. Can that be a question which could lead you to insight? And I don't know if you heard two weeks ago, but I mentioned two weeks ago that this kind of study is based on compassion. If you're not already grounded in your own suffering, then this kind of talk is kind of ridiculous. If someone comes in to talk to a teacher and they're not in touch with their own suffering, the teacher can't do anything.

[49:26]

Really? Well, the teacher can be empathetic to the fact that the person isn't in touch with their suffering. You can ask him how he feels, and if he says he's feeling fine and he looks like he's in pain, you can ask him again. And if he says he's in pain, you can sympathize and help him get in touch with his pain. You can help that way. But you can't ask real questions. You can't ask questions like this. You know what I mean? It would be cruel for someone who's kind of like... It wouldn't necessarily be cruel, but it might be cruel if someone's kind of spaced out from their own suffering and then you say something to them like, what's happening? Or is this holy or ordinary? It might increase their pain. It might shock them. I think these people are walking around in touch with their pain. That's why they can talk like this to each other. That's why it's in, I think, good-hearted talk. Because these guys aren't hurting each other. These guys can't be hurt anymore.

[50:29]

These guys are in bottom-line pain, I think. Nobody can hurt these people. They're in touch with their pain completely. And also that they have no self-pity. They don't think, oh, poor little me, and then when the teacher asks them a tough question or shouts at them or something, it doesn't bother them. And in that context, they have stories like this. That's why I said at the beginning of this story in particular, get in touch with your own suffering before you read these things. Otherwise, these things will annoy you. These stories could annoy you. could annoy you a lot. But if you're already in touch with your suffering, these stories won't bother you that much. And somebody, your friends and neighbors, could come up to you and ask you questions about these stories, and that won't bother you either. It'll bother you some, but it won't be a major increase in your level of suffering. But if you weren't in touch with your suffering, this case could bug you.

[51:33]

I imagine. It seems like it is bothering him a little bit. So it is necessary to do some scholarship. Scholastic study is necessary in Buddhism. And also, but more important, more fundamental than that, is self-study of your own state. So first of all, people should sit and get in touch with their own state. Then you should listen to the teaching. And some of the teaching will be about how to get in touch with your state. But you have to be clear about what the words are. And in fact, some people receive instruction about how to get in touch with their state, and they sometimes misunderstand how to do it, and then they have to ask the question again. Because it didn't work. The words didn't make sense to them, and the way they tried to get in touch with their state didn't get them in touch with their state. It got them distracted from their state. So then they come and they say, well, I got distracted from my state, or they don't even know they got distracted from their state.

[52:36]

And then they listen again to the worries until they get them, and then they put them to practice until they become their state. That's the intellectual side of it. So I feel that this story would require each of us... Now, you don't necessarily need to use the two stories here to draw yourself into it. You can just use the one story. So if you use the one story, then you say, imagine the question, is this ordinary or holy? Imagine yourself or someone else shouting. Imagine the bow. What does the bow mean? How does that take you deeper? And what do these two levels of commentary mean after that? How do they take you deeper? What are they addressing? Can you see how this is taking you deeper into your reality? And if not, Well, why not? Where is it taking you?

[53:39]

What are these words about? Why did they write them down? Why did they pass the story on for hundreds and hundreds of years? Why is this among the thousands and thousands of inspiring stories in Buddhist literature? Why did this very well-educated Buddhist teacher choose a story? What is it about? changed what it's about for you over the years? Pardon? Has it changed what it's about for you over the years?

[54:42]

It changes all the time, but sometimes basic structures holds for quite a long time. I mean, in all these stories, sometimes the basic kind of like levels don't change much, and sometimes they get actually completely reversed. But sometimes the angle I come in on or what people say really changes my perspective. And sometimes the whole structure gets reworked. I'm constantly changing on this stuff. My own state has an effect on this stuff. The state of the world has an effect on this stuff. And my understanding, it's always changing. But sometimes there's some structural consistency in the way these things are built. In this story, because of this parallel story, there's an implication that this question is being asked, there's a response, the shout, and then there's another response.

[55:53]

So you have here the parallelism of a bao in a statement like What? This old pisser, right? This little pisser and these old guys. That statement, how is that? So you have that information that that statement is like a bao. Or that bao is like that statement. Do you see your, when you bow in a situation like that, can you see, can you identify that there's something like in the bow is some kind of talk like that? It's like Yanto, as you talk now, I see Yanto as confessing, repenting. He talks about, I held up the warning of that, as a sense of confession,

[56:57]

When he talks later. Later, yeah. So his bow, was his bow that way? Or was his original statement that way? Which is he talking about? His bow? Or his original statement? I think within the bow, the original statement was still reading it. The bow is like that. And then would you say that Poohua's calling Lin Ji a little pisser was a confession? She said, uh-huh.

[58:05]

Do you people see Puhua as making confessions? Doesn't sound like it does, but why not? Do you think an actual Buddhist practitioner, somebody who's in touch with his suffering, can say anything without repenting at the same time? Do you think that's possible? Think about it. Consider the possibility that when you're really in touch with your suffering, everything you ever say is a confession. And not just say verbally, but every physical gesture you make is a confession. What do you think about that? You started some trouble here, Mark. How are you using the word confession? Confessing your human delusion. And that people who are in touch with their suffering, I would think, then what they say would be in the sense of confession.

[59:24]

And also, this confession, this kind of confession, is purifying. So every action is purifying. Every action admits human limitation and human delusion. Every action is purifying. Could that be going on here? Acknowledging your suffering, acknowledging that you have pain, whatever it happens to be. Like right now, can you feel a load of tears in your upper eyelid? We're not crying right now, but can you feel that you could just for a dime, you could cry? Can you feel that? Can you feel some pain in your heart, which has no limit? I don't know, whatever it is.

[60:27]

Can you feel some fear? Can you feel some embarrassment about the fact that you're constantly involved in believing your thinking and driven around by it? Can you feel some pain around that stuff? Well, if you can, then that's what I call acknowledging your pain. If you can't, then I would say that's not acknowledging your pain. That's all. No big deal, except it's just kind of basic, right? And so I feel each of us has to check that out ourselves, and that's not for somebody else to tell us. And then if you check that out, then I think you're in good position to, when you do something, when you say something, you can say, I don't fool myself. Not because you don't fool yourself, but because you know you're a fool. Yanto says, he walks up and stands next to him, he says,

[61:30]

Where did you learn this empty-headedness? I never fool myself. It's not that I never deluded. I never fool myself. I always know I'm empty-headed. I always know that my head is full of empty thoughts. Delusions. And then he says, later on you will shit on my head. Those people who can accept their pain can notice their empty-headedness and not fool themselves, and then you can shit on Dashaun's head. Okay? Yes? Is there a question in here that something happens to Yanko after he dies? Then he goes through sort of a pro forma kind of behavior at one level of a three.

[62:36]

Ask Martha. She's the one who thought that later he was confessing, and she thought he was confessing his original statement, and also he is confessing about. So what's your question now? Well, I guess I get confused when you talk about confessing. And I can only understand that as There are lots of levels that I can act on or behave on or be on in any moment. And what it feels like to me in this is that it's falling through levels. Levels of understanding. It's falling through levels, however, and also these levels are not on different levels.

[63:37]

Okay. So even after acquiring Buddhahood, will you continue to practice this truthful practice of confession? So Buddhas continue to practice confession even after they're Buddhas. When do you think Buddhas practice confession? When do you think they do it, Grace? Always. And for example, when do they do it? Yeah. They always do it now. Right? That's when they do it. And there's no other time. So they're always doing it. They don't do it yesterday, tomorrow. They do it now. And they do it again. So that's just part of what Buddhas do, is they confess. Then what do they do? That isn't all they do. Repent. Huh? Well, I mean, they confess and they repent, and then what do they do? Then they take refuge in themselves. They take refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Then they practice the precepts. No, it's not.

[64:41]

Confession isn't the whole story. It is just an essential ingredient which has been brought out now. But that's not all we do. We also act. Confessing isn't acting, but to act from confession, then you may not be fooled. Yeah? Do you think we're always in pain and just don't acknowledge it? Most people are always in pain and just don't acknowledge it. If you acknowledge it, then if you acknowledge it completely, and notice what causes it, and see that the cause has dropped away, then there's no pain. Really, we're not in pain. But we think we are.

[65:43]

And we usually don't admit that we think we are. That's what I think. But we're not always in pain because actually we're never in pain. So we're both always in pain and never in pain. We're always free of our pain and we're always in our pain. But we'll never experience our freedom of our pain if we don't admit to the extent that pain is a reality. There is a truth of the appearance of pain. And if we accept that truth, then we can exceed the cause. And the cause has something to do with the way we think about, for example, pain. And so when you acknowledge your pain, you can see how you think about it. When you see how you think about it, you can see the way you think about it is causing it. And then you're going to notice all kinds of wonderful, liberating things. That's what this story is about. It's about the way we think. Is this holy or ordinary?

[66:45]

Is this freedom or not? Is this being caught or is this being liberated? That's the question. Or are we alive or dead? Is the sparrow alive or dead? Am I coming? Am I entering or leaving? Which is it? The question itself is like a confession. The question itself is like a confession. Yes. That's right. Can you do it this way? A lie is dead. Mm-hmm. Right. It's a confession that we're involved in that realm. Right. And again, to admit that you're involved in that realm, well, I think might. For me, it does. It brings me in touch with some pain.

[67:45]

To admit that I'm involved in that makes me kind of sad. Sad in the sense that I just let go of the person who didn't face that a few seconds ago. And now I'm coming into my real life, which is a person who's willing to admit that that's where he's at. Holding up, putting down one. But sometimes you're something that shouts. Well, the shout shocked him, but he still had something to say, right? However, then if he'd been hit on the back, on the spine, then Dungshan wouldn't have said anything, and Yan Tao wouldn't have said anything, see? That's what the proposal is. Dungshan's comments like that, right. But if he had been struck, Dungshan wouldn't have had to say anything, and Yan Tao wouldn't have had to say anything. Yes? Are you at deep when you admit your pain? Are you at deep when you admit your pain?

[68:46]

My first response is no. But if you admit your pain, you can become a thief. A Dharma thief. It's the anti. Huh? It's the anti. Yeah, right. It's the anti to playing Dharma cops and robbers. But if we're not settled in our state, Then this, as I said earlier, then this becomes kind of heady. If you settle in your state, then this can be actually like a, like a, you know, I don't know what, like I get the feeling of like, you know, kind of like something you can pull yourself into yourself with. But I don't think I can pull myself into myself with this material if I'm not willing to pull myself into myself with my ordinary awareness.

[69:49]

You don't need that much instruction to acknowledge your pain. Once you acknowledge your pain, then some instruction may be helpful to get you into the subtleties of your thinking. And each of us, using a story like this, each of us will have a different take on what what the bow means, or what it means to say, this old guy is a new bride, and this one is a Zen granny, and this young menial laborer has an eye. Each of us will have a different take on what that's telling us about the way we think. And also, on different days, we might have different takes on it.

[70:56]

But anyway, it's saying, take a step, take another step, take another step. It's kind of remodeling, inquiring deeply into your thinking. And also do it in conversation. Do it in conversation. You can do it inside in your own self in conversation, but do it outside in conversation too. But can we see our conversations we have, is there some way to see our conversations as helping us return to who we are? Did the conversation that we've been having tonight take you back to yourself at all? If not, how about a question to do so? Yes.

[72:01]

At once, facing their own pain, it strikes me that in order to do so, it might be... Well, the pain might be hard to manage, to face it constantly and still exist in the relative world. amongst other people, it seems like it would be very difficult not to, well, as you said, most people could probably cry or react in some way. So how is facing one's pain reconcilable with dealing with other humans, for example, having some common level of behavior? Well, sometimes you maybe have to change your job.

[73:08]

If acknowledging your pain is... is so challenging and so all-consuming sometimes that it just takes like 95% of your attention, then maybe you can't work in the front office. Or maybe you can cut onions. Or maybe you can work in the fields. I don't think the people in the fields, although there's none here right now, so I got it. Part-time. Part-time. I don't think the people would feel it would mind if you're crying while you're working. Probably. I think in a Zen community, I think if you're crying or if you're struggling to acknowledge your pain and it takes all your attention to start to stay with it and still be able to walk... If you couldn't actually shovel at the same time, then maybe you need a break for a while.

[74:18]

But you probably could come back in 15 minutes and shovel some more. I think a lot of people can shovel a try at the same time. When I was first at Tal Sahara, I felt like I could... I remember one time very clearly I was just shoveling and [...] I didn't have any trouble suffering while I was shoveling. As a matter of fact, I thought perhaps if I could do something besides shoveling, I would be suffering less. But I was out in the rain, you know, for many hours, many days, just digging in trenches, you know, digging holes in the mud. And I was suffering, and I didn't find any, I didn't have any problems suffering with my shoveling. And nobody came up to me. Of course, it was raining a lot, so, you know, I was just looking down at the dirt, so nobody was coming up and looking to see if I was crying. But if I was, I don't think people wouldn't mind. I think in this community, we let people suffer, to some extent. In some situations, people come up to you and say, what's the matter? Oh, I'm sure up, you know, you're depressing the other workers.

[75:21]

And if that's the case, then you probably need to go someplace where people will let you suffer. And if they even show you're suffering. And even here you might say, you know, I'm really having a hard time, but it's okay. I'm taking care of myself. Or it's okay, I've got somebody I'm talking to about it. And people will let you do it. But there may be some work you can't do while you're suffering a lot. And so you may need to change your work. You may have to adjust somewhat, but it's okay. I think I would support anybody who needed some different arrangement if they were acknowledging their pain. But I also feel that acknowledging your pain does not incapacitate you. What incapacitates you is not to acknowledge it. People don't acknowledge their pain and they... I've got to be careful about my examples, but anyway, people... They don't acknowledge their pain and then they, you know, they walk into walls, they drive off roads, they cut their fingers off, you know, they say cruel things to other people because they're denying their pain.

[76:33]

I haven't seen much problem of people acknowledging their pain. The pain's there. Sometimes it's extreme, sometimes it's not. But the acknowledgement, I haven't seen that that causes any problems. Now people try to acknowledge their pain sometimes and the way they try at first is sometimes not very effective. But they acknowledge it and the way they acknowledge it is they start to acknowledge it and then they start pitying themselves. Pitying yourself is not acknowledging pain. That's a side trip. Or not to mention acknowledging your pain and trying to figure out who's responsible for this. Who's the cause of this? There must be somebody who's doing something to make this happen beside me. That's not acknowledging your pain. That's another side trip. But still, sometimes acknowledging your pain when you first get into it does require an adjustment in your schedule or change of your work or something like that.

[77:33]

And of course, if you're really crying a lot, it's hard to drive or something because you can't see, right? If you're sobbing, you can't do certain things. But a lot of stuff, especially the nice thing about this community is we have certain kinds of manual labor, so you can really be suffering and really be crying and stuff like that and still function here pretty well. And, of course, you can meditate, like at Tassajara, during the practice period we have long stretches where you can be crying and crying, and as long as you don't make a lot of noise, it doesn't really bother anybody. You can really get into it. And here we have some situations like that, too, where you can really acknowledge your pain and it doesn't bother anybody who even notices it. It was raining. Nice. We need more rain. Or if you're cutting onions. What? Or if you're cutting onions. It's very nice. Yes. Yes.

[78:39]

I want to tell you about a Buddhist art installation I saw last week. Down on the Cinnick side was an empty lot that's left by performance art. But what's there now? It's a long empty lot between two buildings and at the back It's large, the letters are about six feet high, and they're beyond lights. It says, I am afraid. So you walk up to the fence, you press this button, and this thing that says, I am afraid, starts moving toward you. It's about, I don't know, it's about half a block away. And stand there, and it comes directly to you until it gets you right here. And then the lights go out and it's gone. And then it slowly goes all the way back to the end. It was absolutely amazing. When I was walking down the street, I saw a couple standing there and a woman pressed a button and started to, you know, stood there and watched it coming.

[79:46]

And she ran. I didn't see, I didn't know when she was running. So I turned around, this thing is coming for her. So I think you should all go see it. Well, it's right next to the building that sells symphony and opera. Speaking of practical coping with pain and stuff like that, I want to mention something, and that is, I think that this class is a five-week class. It's a fifth week just happened, right? This class is over. We can't have another one because it's practically starting.

[80:50]

That's when the next class starts. Huh? What I'm saying is a new group of people are going to come in here. Okay? Well, I don't know how many are going to come. But there's going to be another set of classes now, right, that are going to start next week. So new people are coming in. And I kind of, my feeling is, and you can tell me otherwise now or between now and next week, my feeling is that this koan is something that... this group of people should do what they can do with it or forget it. I'll work with you on this if you want to. You can work with each other on it, discuss it with each other. But I have a feeling not to, I don't think it's going to work for these people to come in here and initiate them into this story. I don't think it will work very well. Maybe it would, but if you want to talk me into it. But I think it would better just go on to the next story. and start them on case 23. That would be my idea.

[81:53]

And if anybody here wants to work more on case 22, I personally would be happy to work with you on it. And you can also talk to each other about it. We're not done with this case, obviously. But I still think we should go on to the next one, because these new people are going to come in. And I don't think they can start in the middle of this. I think they'll be too confused. That's my feeling. But if you have some different idea, let me know. I think you're more advanced in your confusion. But maybe I'm wrong. If you really feel that way, I would consider that. Yeah. Just one more. Yeah. Oh, you mean new people won't be coming in? No, new people won't. There's five classes, and this is the fourth of five classes tonight.

[83:05]

So just one more to go. However, new people in the practice period will arrive this Sunday. But they can wait? Yes. I have this priority. The next one will just be seven instead of six. It's a series of seven. Yeah, I can. But what I'm saying is basically what I'm talking about is a new group of people coming in. And if they do, I just felt like since you're so much into this case but not finished, it seemed like it would be very confusing for them. They won't know what you're talking about. It would be hard. That's my feeling. So I was thinking of going to the next case. But what we haven't really done, finished this case. That's why I say that if we were done with this case, it wouldn't be a problem to go ahead. Is everybody confused now?

[84:09]

You're on your own.

[84:20]

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