We've been beginning to study a case called... In this text of the Book of Suriname, it's called Yuen Mun's Sesame Cake. And the Bill Cliff record is called Yuen Mun's Cake. And the basic case... is that a monk asked the Zen teacher Yunnan, what is talk that goes beyond Buddhas and ancestors? Or that's what it says in the Blue Cliff Record. And then the The Book of Serenity is translated as, What is taught that transcends Buddhas and ancestors? And some of you already know that there's lots of Zen stories about

[01:25]

monks asking, asking about Buddha or Buddhas and asking about ancestors and asking about Zen and asking about the Buddha way, asking about the meaning of Are you leaving because there's no place to sit? I'm going to that other chair over there. Oh, okay. Sometimes they say, what is the meaning of Bodhidharma coming from the West? What is the meaning of Buddha's teaching? What is the meaning of Buddha nature? So in this case, in a sense, it sounds like the monk's taking a step

[02:32]

Further, instead of just asking about what is Buddha or what is an ancestor, he's asking what talk goes beyond or transcends Buddhas. And Yin Men says, sesame cake or cake. And last week we talked about building a container or a kind of environment for something, well, perhaps for talk, for a certain kind of talk to occur. And maybe it's too much to... consider talk that would transcend Buddhas and ancestors.

[03:37]

But it seems like if there is going to be talk like that, there needs to be some kind of context in which it could happen. And one story I would tell is that the talk that goes beyond Buddhas and ancestors, maybe that's like... I don't know what would that be, but something that maybe is a reality or a truth that goes beyond Buddhas and ancestors. And what might that be? We might say, well, maybe that's like the way things really happen. Talk which, not talk about what goes beyond Buddhas and ancestors, but talk that actually transcends, or talk that actually goes beyond.

[04:49]

A way of talking, a way of behaving that transcends Buddhas and ancestors. it may be the case that for this kind of talk to happen, this kind of talk happens when we can play together. And we can play together when we're completely relaxed together. And we can be relaxed together when we feel safe. And so... To some extent, another story I could tell is that the conversation between Yuen Mun and this monk, if it was the case that this monk was asking about talk that transcends Buddhas and ancestors, and if Yuen Mun's talk, sesame cake, does transcend Buddhas and ancestors, then maybe the situation between them

[05:59]

and whoever else was there at the time, was a situation of safety, relaxation, play, and creativity, such that in response to this question, this actual, this phenomena of this kind of talk which transcends Buddhism ancestors could arise between the people there. Choose another word for safety. I don't really understand. Well, a situation where you could relax, where you would dare to relax completely. Does that mean anything? Yeah, but I don't know that it always entails feeling safe. Pardon? I don't know that it always entails feeling safe. To be able to relax? Yeah. For some people it does, I think.

[07:05]

That's what I've heard. That some people, they can't relax if they don't feel safe. And they can't be creative and play unless they feel safe. I might be competing with comfort. Yeah, maybe not the same as comfort. I think it's possible to exercise your muscles, for example, or even your voice in a strenuous way and at the same time be relaxed. But if you're exercising your muscles in a way that may be like, I don't know, running up a hill here, your muscles might hurt, but you might be able to run up but still be relaxed while you're running. You can also run up the hill with your muscles hurting but be tense and frightened And there's a lot to be said for the proposition that we learn best when we're relaxed. But not relaxed with, you know, no effort. But relaxed maybe, for example, you can sit up straight and balanced, and there's kind of some effort there, and you can be relaxed.

[08:21]

Or you can sit up straight with effort and be tense. You can also lie down and be tense. And you can also lie down and be relaxed. But it's also possible to like stand up or sit up and talk up and be relaxed at the same time and just use the muscles necessary to produce the upright posture and to, or to produce the words. And in that relaxation, then, if two people or more were relaxed, interacting, making the effort to breathe and let the breath move over the vocal cords, the conversation might become playful and creative to such an extent that the talk would become talk of this type.

[09:22]

And we've had some discussions and some people have said that this group is too big for people to relax, for everybody to relax. And so maybe that's true. And I don't want to be, you know, close to that possibility that it's too much to ask that we can relax, that we can relax and learn, that we can relax and play and learn about a way of talking with each other that transcends Buddhas and ancestors. But again, maybe these people living together in these stories, that they had enough contact with each other so that they could actually feel safe to express themselves and interact in a way to give rise to such speech. So I guess part of the question you could ask is, in this story where a monk is asking a teacher about talk that transcends Buddhas and ancestors, and the teacher says,

[10:44]

was there talk that transcended Buddhas and ancestors? And so this is a big point of discussion for centuries. And the way I just put it is a little bit dualistic, like was there or wasn't there such talk? But, you know, we can let that kind of question just slip, let it go. I'm not actually thinking that. I don't think that's actually such a good question. But I would say that I've heard that after this happened, a lot of people talked about this event, partly because people had a lot of respect for what was happening in Yunmen's temple. And they thought Yunmen was really helpful. So then when he said stuff like this, people really thought about, well, what happened there?

[11:48]

Was that talk that transcended Buddhas and ancestors? Or was that question relevant to anything? And what was Yunmen saying when he responded that way? Or who was saying that? What are those words? So anyway, people wrote lots of poems about it. And then after quite a bit of poem writing about it from a lot of people, then we get to the point of the Blue Cliff record where the compiler, Sui Du, writes a verse celebrating the case, saying what he thinks about it. And then sometime later, Hong Jer also writes writes a verse. I think Hongzhi probably, very likely, read a lot of these poems and read Suido's poem. And he wrote his own poem celebrating this case or talking about what happened.

[12:50]

Not necessarily talking about what happened, but maybe producing some more talk that transcended Buddhas and ancestors. I don't know. And then there's our situation here. Are we going to, like, talk about whether there was such talk, or are we going to do such talk? And again, maybe some of you will say, or maybe, yeah, maybe some of you will say, well, let's do that talk. And then I would say, well, are we really ready for that? And... I'd like to ask a question. Okay. Pardon? What? Two questions. There's two questions. So Eden would like to ask a question, and Marjorie would like to do something. Marjorie?

[13:53]

She said go for it. I'm very appreciative that you're trying to set up such a laboratory. I think it's so wonderful. And my experience at the end of last class was one that brought up a couple of questions in my mind. Because I became spontaneous, which I think must be an ingredient in such a situation to have enough safety to experiment and come out wrong or come out right, and made some joke. which I knew was respectful, but could have sounded disrespectful. And I believe that your answer about, I said something about, you said something about being so difficult, being very difficult to be a teacher, or under certain circumstances. I don't remember completely what it was. Yeah. And I said something about, well, we know you like being a teacher, something like that.

[15:00]

Uh-huh. Which was a way of sort of like, to me felt like an old shoe joke, which was meant respectfully but could have sounded otherwise. Yes. You said something just before you started the chant about maybe retiring. Yes. And no need to go into fancy analysis about that, but... It was an attempt to... it felt like an attempt to join in. And it feels as though it's... for a Buddhist monastery, for a Buddhist practice group of such depth, stability of this one... This one being? Which one are you talking about?

[16:01]

This one presently? Okay. Green Gulch and Zen Center and this effort. Okay. And this class in particular that you're directing, keep trying one thing or another. Yes. To try to set up such a, to have a Buddhist practice place be safe enough where we can try to generate something like that just seems to me to be wonderful. So, don't retire. Because we all need to make lots of mistakes. Thank you. How do you feel? Fine. Fine? Good. Eden? I have a question about your question, your questioning your question of, did they talk or, this is no segue, did they have transcending talk or converse so that they transcended?

[17:28]

the talk of the ancestors or not? Why is that a bad question? Like, it's, okay, bad is, why is that a question you don't want to ask? Oh, I didn't really mean that it was a bad question. I just thought, you know, in some sense I didn't think it was a very good question, that's all. I thought, you know, into like whether or not they're doing it, I didn't think that's a very good question. I mean, but if somebody asked it, I wouldn't necessarily... If somebody else asked it, I wouldn't necessarily think it was better than me asking it, or worse. But getting into whether it is or... I mean, it's kind of natural to think, okay, they're asking about this kind of talk, and then you might think, well, were they doing it or not? So like Buddhas and ancestors, in some sense, you might think, well, those people probably transcended like, you know, is or is not.

[18:31]

Right? They're not caught up into like, well, is this Buddhism or is this not Buddhism? Is this compassion right now, what's happening here, and not compassion? Is this like wisdom or not wisdom? That kind of question, some people might be wondering about, right? And maybe Buddhas are free of such questions. Not to say that they don't ask those questions or don't get asked those questions, but maybe they're free. They don't get caught up with them. They can use those questions to realize wisdom and compassion. Maybe somebody thinks that Buddhas and ancestors can do that. We hope they can't. So if I start asking questions about whether they can or can or did or didn't, in some sense I'm asking questions about the stuff that they transcended. So in some sense it's kind of like, maybe that's a good question, but not so bad either. But maybe there's some other kind of questions or other kind of comments that are more kind of like,

[19:36]

to the mysterious point of being a Buddha, and then even to the mysterious point of going beyond Buddhas. So in some sense, someone might say, well, maybe going beyond Buddhas is like not talking like Buddhas, but talking like ordinary dualistic people, and really like getting dualistic and saying, well, did they or didn't they? Maybe that's transcending. But I don't know. So I'm not saying... that questions about whether it is or isn't are good or bad, because that would be the same thing again. But just maybe there's a more interesting way to approach this than whether there is or isn't enlightenment in this room. But maybe someone's interested whether there is or isn't enlightenment in this room. Maybe someone would like to bring that up. Or not. Did you have your hand raised, Liz? Yeah. Okay, Liz, and then... Relaxation is maybe... maybe not... maybe not worrying about... I'm thinking how we're constantly discerning.

[20:57]

That's a function of our being, function of judgment, function of discernment. Yes. And... And I think there's something about relaxation that's maybe more present with some level of experience that doesn't engage with that discernment in an evaluating kind of function, or is it constantly referencing those evaluations? You think relaxation might be to not be constantly referencing certain discriminations, certain disagreements? I feel like I'm not relaxed right now when I'm talking about something which I'm not doing. Which is, maybe I'm talking and wondering if I'm saying the right thing. Maybe there's talking and... There's talking? Right now there's talking and wondering about whether this talk is the right kind of talk?

[21:59]

Yeah. Yeah. And so if there's relaxation, maybe they would be kind of like talking and wondering whether the talk was all right, but not being particularly involved in that wondering. Just kind of like, well, somebody's wondering now whether this talk is all right or not. And that somebody is right, kind of in the same location as the talk producing. Which is kind of respecting the fullness of everything happening, not just picking out one thing that's so super important. Right. Relaxation might allow openness to the wonder that you can talk, and at the same time wonder how you're doing while you're talking. It's kind of wonderful that that can happen. And it's very challenging not to get caught by that stuff too. But maybe it's possible, right? With awareness, maybe it's possible. So just to feed you a little bit of stuff to chew on, or not even to chew on, but to look at and decide whether you're going to chew on it, but just to put it on the table for you, I'll read what Sui To said in response to this story.

[23:17]

Sui To is the collector of the Blue Cliff Record, and he was in the Yunmin lineage. So he's a few generations after Yunmin. So celebrating this case, he says, Zen travelers, Chan travelers, asking about transcendent talk are especially numerous. Okay? Make sense? Pardon? Numerous. [...] Many. There's many Zen travelers traveling around asking about transcendent talk. So apparently they asked, they went around, a lot of them were walking around talking, asking about transcendent talk. A lot of them were also asking about like Buddhas and ancestors and Buddhism and stuff, right? But they also particularly seem to be interested, they're talking and asking questions about transcendent talk according to this 10th century Yunnan successor.

[24:30]

And then he says, his gap opens up His gap opens. See it? Even the cake stuffed in doesn't stop him. Even the cake stuffed in doesn't stop him. Up until now, there has been confusion all over the world. That's what he had to say about this case. Chan travelers, Zen travelers, asking about transcendent thought are especially numerous. His gap opens. See it? Even the cake stuffed in doesn't stop him.

[25:36]

Up till now, there has been confusion all over the world. Yeah. Well, it could be his mouth. Couldn't it? It could be his mouth. Because we're talking about transcendent talk and somebody's mouth opens. Somebody's mouth, somebody's gap opens. What? You see the gate? You see the cake? And then Even the cake stuffed in doesn't stop him. Is that it? Even though he says sesame cake, it doesn't prevent him. Even though he says sesame cake. Even though he says, cake, even though the cake created his mouth, cake, that cake doesn't stop him.

[26:47]

It doesn't stop him from asking a question about how the Buddha's transcendent had him to talk like that? Well, I don't know who you're talking about, but the one who said cake, the one who had cake stuffed in his mouth was Yuen Mun. The teacher has the cake in his mouth, right? So the student says, what talk transcends Buddha's ancestors? And the teacher goes, cake, or cake, or cake. But anyway, cake's in his mouth there for a second. But even though the cake's in his mouth, it doesn't stop him. I thought it was the teacher. The gap was the student going, and the teacher took a cake and stuffed it in his mouth, and he was still going, because he hadn't gotten it. It could be that way, too, that the student asked the teacher, what is... you know, talk that transcends Buddhas and ancestors.

[27:54]

And Yunmin didn't really say. It says Yunmin said, but maybe he didn't say it. Maybe he was kidding about him saying it and actually took a rice cake and put it... The guy said, what is talk that transcends Buddhas and ancestors? And as he said, or... He put the cake in his mouth when he said or. However, he doesn't say that the monk kept talking. So maybe it wasn't the monk. Maybe his yin-men is the one who can talk, who can talk and have cake in his mouth. At the same time he has cake in his mouth, he can still say cake. Isn't that interesting? That you can have your mouth full of cake and still say cake? Yes? Or maybe gap has nothing to do with mouth. Maybe it's not. What other gap did he open? Maybe did he open his heart? Do you see it? Anyway, do you see the gap? Where's the gap?

[28:55]

Do you see it? This guy's asking you about a dead man or what. What gap is he talking about? That gap in the young man or some other gap? Sounds like Bodhisattva action, you know. Maybe the gap between the two of them. Go. Maybe a gap and a barrier to understanding. Maybe a gap and a barrier to understanding. The gap questions of inquiry between two people or several people. Mm-hmm. The gap... The bottom fell out of the gap, and in that bottomless gap appeared sesame cake. To me, all the conversations and the message I just keep picking up is that the playfulness and being comfortable and transcending, to me, just meaning

[30:14]

All that interaction could then... Is this transcending just positive energy? And if everybody's focused on, well, is this talk or isn't this talk, instead of just doing it and creating with energy, they're focused on is it or isn't. I'm the one who made that mistake about is it or isn't it. They don't seem to be is it or isn't it. In this story, the monk says, what kind of talk? And Yunmen doesn't say, he just says, rice cake. He didn't say, well, was that it or not? And the commentator doesn't say, was that it or not? He just says, people are asking this question all the time. And then he says, his gap opens. And he also asked, do you see the gap? But even then, if they keep asking, But then, even if they keep asking, is this talk for... If they do, but so far nobody's doing that. Oh, there's other people asking about... But they weren't necessarily asking... Maybe they did go around and say, is there transcendent talk in this temple or not?

[31:25]

Maybe that's what they said. Do you have transcendent talk here? Maybe that's what they asked. Maybe they're traveling around checking... Do you have transcendent talk here? Maybe that's what they said. I don't know. Rice cake. Would you ask a non-dualistic question, please? Was my question of you non-dualistic? When I asked you to ask a non-dualistic question, was that dualistic? Was my question dualistic? Would I ask a non-dualistic question? I asked you, would you please ask a non-dualistic question. I asked you that. Was my question dualistic? It was? Okay, now would you please transcend my talk?

[32:28]

Please, I'm asking you to please do it. Please do it. I would never, how? I didn't ask you to do it based on knowing how. I would be speechless. You would be speechless? I would be. What are you doing now? I'll be talking. Was that transcendent? No. Or not? I cannot. I don't know. Was that dualistic? No. Fantastic. Yes? Well, I'm kind of traveling around with you for a chance to talk. Pardon, you're wondering if there's some here?

[33:44]

Yeah. Do you see the gap open? Sometimes. Do you see it open now? Yes. Is there cake stuffed in it? Is there cake stuffed in it? There's not cake, but there is cake. There is cake? There is cake. There is cake? Is the cake stuffed in it, in the gap? Or is the cake someplace other than the gap? The cake is in the gap and in other places too. Is this cake is spread around? And the place where the cake in the gap, does the cake in the gap stop the talk? No. Do you see transcendent talk? Could the gap be a container?

[34:55]

I think a gap could be a container, yeah. Well, may I respond to that? May she respond to that? May she respond to that? I certainly have a question for you. I don't know. You're concerned everyone has a question?

[35:56]

Thank you. I have a non-domestic question. Is it over? If I was to go out and try to get a sesame cake, where could I get it? That was a non-dualistic question? Wasn't it? I'm not saying it wasn't. I just want to check to make sure. That was a non-dualistic question, the one you just asked? Yeah. Okay, now would you ask a dualistic one? Okay. Well, could you answer my question first? Was that a dualistic question? Was it a dualistic question? What do you think? I don't want to think.

[36:59]

I just want to feel. You do? Yeah. Do you? Yeah. Are you satisfied? Partially. What do you lack? Where do I find a sesame seed? If I want to go out and buy a sesame cake, did I buy it in the market? Excuse me, can I go back to what you said? I asked you what you lacked, and you said you lacked a sesame cake. Didn't you? Isn't that what you said? Is that what he said? Is that what he said? No, he wanted where to buy it. Oh, what you lack is knowing where to buy a sesame cake? Right. Is that what you lack? Right. Well, I don't know if I lack it. I just... What? I was just curious. You know, ever since reading this column for the first time, I thought about what a sesame cake tastes like. Not a sesame cracker, but a sesame cake. Yes. Because you said sesame cake for a reason.

[38:03]

Yes. What was the reason? Is that a dualistic question? Yes. Maybe to create the gap. He asked the question, the monk asked the question to create a gap? No, no, the teacher said sesame cake. Oh, the teacher said sesame cake to create a gap. Maybe. Mark, there's a reference that the cake is flavorless. For your information. I remember that reference. I remember that. You want to know what flavorlessness tastes like? That would be interesting. That would be. How does it taste? Like this. It tastes without singing.

[39:23]

Pardon? It tastes without singing. Is your hunger satisfied? No. What will satisfy you in your hunger? No hunger. What do we got now? Close. Do you lack anything? No. Can I help you?

[40:28]

No. Can you help me? No. How do you feel? Flavorless. Yes, Daniel? I think he had a question. Who's he? Michael. Oh, Michael had a question? Actually, it was something I want to read. You want to read us something? Yeah.

[41:30]

Is that all right with you people, if you read something? Sure. Is it long or short? It's a Zen book. I was reading this yesterday and it helped me to have like a doorway or feeling into the koan. And so I thought I'd share it. You know this. I know it. You're in it. I'm in it? You're in it. Great. This book here, which is called Mountain Tasting... How long are we going to get out of this? Zen Haiku by Santoka Tanita.

[42:41]

Is that correct? Tanita. Tanita. Okay. Tanita. And just as a little bit of a background, he's a contemporary... Zen monk. I think he died in 1940. And he was a wandering monk. He would go off for very long walkings around Japan. And very, very solitary, very poor. And so this is an introduction where John Stevens is sort of giving a... background is a picture of him as a person. And I'll read the paragraph before to just set it up a little bit. This fellow, Oyama, who eventually published much of his diaries and haiku, had finally come to meet him.

[43:48]

It was very hard to meet him because he was always out walking. But periodically he'd come back to this place and hang out with his friends. Also, he loved three things. To walk, to drink sake. He was an alcoholic and drunkard. And to write haiku. So Oyama comes to meet him. And Oyama had to spend the night at Gochiyan, which was this... shack that Sandako would spend time at. And there was naturally only one sleeping quilt, and Sandako insisted, you are my guest, you use the quilt, I'll stay up. The quilt was little more than a ragged piece of cloth that would barely cover a child, let alone a full grown man. As the winter wind blew in through the many holes in the walls and ceilings, Oyama became colder and colder and was unable to sleep.

[44:55]

Santoka put his priest robe, his summer kimono, and several other pieces of cloth on top of Oyama, but he was still cold. Finally, Santoka piled all his old magazines and even his little desk on top of his shimmy friend. The next morning when Oyama awoke, Santoka was still sitting in Zazen. So this next piece is what moved me. Santoka was used to sharing anything he had. One night, as Santoka prepared for another dinnerless evening, a large dog came to his door carrying a big rice cake in its mouth. Santoka had no idea where the dog or the rice cake had come from. He took the rice cake, he split it in two and gave half to the dog, who then ran off into the darkness. As soon as the dog was gone, a little cat came up to Santoka and begged for some of the rice cake.

[46:03]

Santoka split it again. And then he wrote this haiku. Autumn night, I received it from the dog and gave it to the cat. Thank you, Michael. You're welcome. In the Zen temples in China, you enter the temple and first you see Maitreya Buddha, Buddha of the future. In the temple, you follow Guanyin's gaze,

[47:07]

When you enter the Dharma, when you sit directly behind the Buddha, facing up the back door to the Dharma, when you go beyond Buddha, everything is within the gaze of Kupanyin. So, Michael's story, I think, is very apropos that what we're talking about, we talked about speech that goes beyond Why is it apropos?

[48:09]

It strikes me as apropos. It strikes you as within Kuan Yin's gaze. I think this is really about hunger. I don't know. I guess I was attracted to the bottom falling out because the hunger, my hunger is the gap. It's the gap in my understanding. It's my hunger. And I can't believe that a mere rice cake can satisfy this. .

[49:26]

actually listening to some story. It sounded like that monk liked five things. He liked walking and sake and haiku and zazen and everything. When I hear gap, I think of parentheses in outer space, parentheses in space, appearing right now, where before what was there, suddenly parentheses and sesame cake in the parentheses. The image is not picking up. Is it the words?

[50:51]

Do you see the words? Do you see the words, sesame cake? I was envisioning practices. Yeah. That's the story. The word cake. I didn't really see the cake. It was more a privacy thing. Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut. Down a slippery slope. I put my mouth shut and wouldn't eat a cake. So you were asking about a dualistic questioning, whether it's possible to ask a dualistic question.

[51:52]

And so we respond. We respond. But it's always within the dualism. And in that situation, there's no gap. It's possible by transcending dualism And this, I feel this is still talking about the finger rather than pointing to the moon. But the gap can open, and the gap is the Cessna Gate. Or the gap is whatever is at that moment. For a young man, it was Cessna Gate. We're still trying to ask these, or we're still asking dualistic questions and responding in dualistic ways. We're always... Missing the second key.

[52:56]

So will you show us where it is? Yeah. What was the last sentence? We're always missing. We're always missing the sesame cake. Because it's too obvious. We don't know what it is. I don't think we know. That would just be the finger. Oh, right. Well, I... The missing, the missing assessment gate would be that.

[53:59]

The assessment gate would be that. Do you feel the chill? Do you feel the hair standing on end? I didn't really understand most of what you just said. And I was facing this way when you were talking for a while. And I was sort of just not getting it, not understanding what your thought was or your question. But then I turned around and I saw you and your eyes and your presence.

[55:07]

And I feel very moved by you. And I feel like that feeling has something to do with what we're talking about. Do you feel the chill? Man. That's the front. That's beautiful. Everybody's awake. So, in my reflection, to me a gap always seems to be between things, you know? Parentheses, you know, there's something, there's something delimiting a gap. There's a gap between Vernon and I, a gap between Matt and I. It doesn't matter between one person and another, it can be between many things, but there are things that delimit a gap and give it shape and form. So if a gap were to open, the things which were kind of structurally giving integrity would open from that and it would kind of release out of that.

[56:19]

And whatever were to come in wouldn't be contained by the parentheses, the gap, or the things that were there. But to me, a gap is always between things. And so we use those things to If you dive into the gap, they aren't the same. If you dive into the gap, they aren't the same. But when... If you... If you dive into the gap... The gap opens and there's... If you go into the gap, the gap separates... becomes the things themselves, rather than the gap that separates the things. You mean you're closing the gap?

[57:21]

You're opening the gap. Are you saying there's no space? There's no gap, it's just what's created. What is in the gap that is the gap? Is that what you're saying? What is in the gap that is the gap? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Well, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Right now, with the gap, I go into the gap. then we are, then it's us. But prior to the gap, is there any separation between anything? When the gap opens, are all things evident, or are all those things separate before the gap is open? Prior to the gap, it's normal, boring, like...

[58:28]

The gap between me and all things. It's in the microphone, the wall, Eleanor's question. Talking about different gaps. There's a gap between us. There's a gap between the gaps. This is why Zaza did it. Sorry. So the discriminating mind comes up... Go, Carol! Go, Carol! Go, Carol! I just want to say Dharma gates are down. So the discriminating mind comes up and we all see the gap open.

[59:54]

The question is dualistic. to offer intimate decimate cake, and it still doesn't stop us. I mean, talking, not eating. So eat, eat! It's easier to talk. You can only read so many recipes. That's not true. You need to take a lot more courage.

[60:55]

Okay. The next course. The ancient Hungarian says, quotation mark, sesame cake, close quotation mark, comma, he says, comma, okay, sesame seed, sesame cake, he says, in a talk, Transcending Buddhas and Ancestors, colon, In the phrase, there is no flavor. In the phrase, there is no flavor. Dash.

[61:59]

How can it be investigated? If patch-robe mendicants one day know repletion, satisfaction, then will they see Yunnan's face not ashamed. Not ashamed. Correct. Sesame cake, he says, in a talk, Transcending Buddhas and Ancestors, colon, in the phrase, there is no flavor. How can it be investigated? If patril mendicants one day know repletion, then they will see Yunmen's face, not ashamed.

[63:09]

If a satisfied man doesn't care? Well, this says a satisfied person will see a young man's face unashamed. The ones who'll be unashamed as they face, as they see? Yeah, if we can, if we are, if we... If we someday know repletion, satisfaction, we will be able to meet yin-men. The character here implies that you've eaten your fill, like ate the sesame cake and you're now full. Right. And then you will be able to meet yin-men in this wonderful state of not being shamed.

[64:23]

And I think that part of what patchwork monks, I think, have some shame, because they are aware of their ancient karma, their practice being aware of their karma. It is a gap, yeah. That's part of what makes the situation, I don't know what, somewhat safe, is that they're aware of their own karma. Does that relate back to the hair's breadth difference between cat and wolf? How were you thinking it did? I was, in that gap. There's a gap there, too. Yeah, and I am that gap. If there's the slightest gap. Yeah. The whole world can appear there. The whole world can? If there's the slightest gap, it's like the distance between heaven and earth.

[65:29]

In other words, the whole world can fit into the slightest gap, the slightest deviation. Yes. I feel like it's all so funny that this is all so obvious. I mean, we all already get it. Yes. And we're sort of going along pretending like we don't, or maybe not pretending like we don't, but we all already get it. That's why we're here. So we do this thing for a while to try to get back to or to fully realize what we know of inside. Right. It's funny that we have to go through so much to get to what we already know.

[66:33]

It's very kind of surprising. Shocking. Dropping the bag and then picking it up again. Maybe we don't really get it. Well, I think you just asking that question shows that you get it, or that there's an it. There's even an it to talk about, to get. But then why do we get it? Well, we do and we don't get it. Gap. We get it from the dog and give it to the cat. Okay. I was thinking that maybe we think we get it or that it's okay to get it in certain circumstances, but we don't necessarily trust that we get it with everybody all the time.

[67:39]

Yeah. We don't trust that. I mean, that's why we keep talking. And I think that's also kind of what Rosie said, is maybe we get it and we give it to the cat. Maybe we're so generous and keep giving away what we know. Could that be? Are we that kind to not hold on to what we understand? I'm not. Even if the cat comes, we won't share? Rozzy. I was thinking about the question when we were home last week. sort of feeling like I was trying to understand it intellectually, but wondering kind of where, if I have that question or not.

[68:47]

Like I sort of didn't feel connected to the question. you know, what speech transcends Buddhism ancestry? Is that the question? That was his question? What talk. What talk. And I wasn't really caring enough about that question. You know, I didn't really feel the connection personally so much. I was trying to see about that. And I'm just wondering if anybody in this room does feel really some connection clearly with that question and if they would be willing to speak about that. If anyone has that question. I have a question. Because if it's a matter of realizing the truth, if my talk is the talk of Buddhas or the talk of ancestors, then how will I realize the truth?

[70:01]

How will the realization of truth be present here? And also, if I want to help other people and I'm referring to those who are not present, if the reference of authority isn't the present moment, then how can I help that person? So in those two ways, I'm concerned with the talk and the speech that transcends Buddhist ancestors. The two poems that we have standing out most prominently among apparently many poems about this case, the two poems don't so much get into... Actually, one kind of says, well, Yuen Mun's talk was pretty good.

[71:27]

But still, the emphasis in both poems seems to be having something to do with the mouth and eating and being satisfied. They seem to be kind of emphasizing that point rather than getting into what transcendent speech is or isn't and whether it happened or not. they're sort of emphasizing opening, eating, satisfaction, and freedom from shame, and intimacy with the ancestors. But the eating and the opening and the satisfaction seem to be... they seem to be actually talking about that. So, someone used the word longing, and So that's one motif that comes up in response to this story about food.

[72:42]

It's something about a gap, a wholeness, a gap or a hole someplace, and filling it, but not in a way that stops anything, filling it in a way that brings satisfaction. And the specter of longing is raised over the case in a way, maybe. Do you feel it? Yeah. Some longing. Yes. It strikes me that, especially after what you've just said, this case is about that longing for the experience of things as they are in a non-dual way. That's the hunger that questions can't satisfy. It's only satisfied by tasting the experience of life as it is.

[73:51]

in a non-dual way. And the gap seems to me to be between our ordinary reality and that sense of union. And that when we enter that, cross that gap, then the confusion ends and The longing is satisfied, and a few minutes later, we're back to duality. At least it's duality within itself. I don't like duality. You got the nice place. Yeah, yeah. Would the people who have not spoken like to say something before we say good night?

[74:55]

Yes. Much earlier on. Could you speak up, please? Much earlier on, someone was talking. I don't see a gap. as a lack of thinking about this. Earlier on, someone was talking about a separation between speech and a discerning mind. And for me, the notion of the gap is recognizing the possibility of separating the response from a discerning mind that keeps wanting to strain or incubate that response. And when that gap opens up, when you see the possibility of that separation, then speech can be words like sesame cake or speech can be picking up the sesame cake.

[76:08]

ending with someone. When that gap is seen, it also seems to be no gap at all. It's filled with inappropriate whispers. I do not know which to prefer, the beauty of reflection or the beauty of innuendo, the Blackbird whistling, or just after. To me, this case revolved around more conceptual thinking and our excessive thinking and seeking.

[77:24]

And you had not put the Stephanie tape in my mouth to shut me up. with no taste there. So I can stop seeking and grasping. Has the seeking and grasping stopped? A little bit. Have you Have you reached, have you known repletion? Are you satisfied? With this case, I am. I'm satisfied with that. Would anyone else care to say something who hasn't spoken yet?

[78:36]

This was a lovely evening. Pardon? This was a lovely evening. I've got so many different ideas, but that's really a lot harder to hold on to one. I haven't had one on the first day yet. Isn't the carpet pretty? No. How carpet-like is the carpet? I've been picturing the gap and the piece of spaghetti of a lady and a tramp.

[79:43]

Maybe that's what it is. We're in one end of the sesame noodle and Yunheng's on the other end. Getting closer and closer to Yunheng. This picture is pretty ugly, too. Only if you marry for six men. I hope this doesn't circle next week, too. Okay, let's do it again. What's the next case?

[81:11]

What is the next case? How does it go? Changsha had a monk ask Master Vui, How was it before you saw Nanchuan? Vui remained silent. The monk said, How about after seeing him? Vui said, There couldn't be anything else. The monk returned and related this to Changsha. Changsha said, The man sitting atop the 100-foot pole. Though he's gained entry, this is not yet the real. Atop the 100-foot pole, he should step forward. The universe in all directions is the whole body. The monk said, quote, atop the 100-foot pole, how can you step forward? Changsha said, quote, the mountains of Lang, the rivers of Li.

[82:42]

The monk said, I don't understand. Changsha said, the whole land is under the imperial sway. Are you satisfied now? Jumping so soon after eating. I feel we were pretty relaxed and fun going tonight. Yeah, congratulations.

[83:19]

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