Zhaozhou, Songshan, and he's wondering how come there's no house coming from them because Nanchuan and Zhaozhou are such great Zen masters. You would have expected a school would have been founded by them, but in fact, they were, that's it. They were like, I don't know what you want to say, comets or something. And for some reason or other, which we could speculate about. Zhaozhou didn't really have a successor. He taught horizontally. He taught the whole nation, but he didn't have a successor. He had thousands of students, of course. He inspired the whole Buddhist world, but he didn't have a successor. Okay, so Michael?

[01:02]

So I got some feedback from the class last week. One piece of feedback I got was it would be nice to have a lineage chart instead of trying to create a class on the blackboard. Anyway, here it is, the lineage chart, which which we had last week, but it's expanded. Can you see how it works? Do you understand how it works? Can you locate the people in our story, this week's story, Case 22? Can you?

[02:08]

Okay. Everybody, who hasn't been able, who are the characters in our story, case 22? What? Deshan. Deshan? Deshan. Deshan means virtue mountain. or virtuous mountain. And do you know where is he? Far left. Deshan. And then do you see how... Well, actually... How did she do that? I think maybe she kind of like... I'm not sure what happened there.

[03:22]

Yeah, that's fine. Well, I think maybe that the person this over to the left, see where Deshan is and under Deshan sees Shui Fung. See that line going over there to the right? Coming down there? I think that's it. Maybe she just spelled it wrong. It looks like Gan Tan, doesn't it? Huh? Huh? I think that should be untold. And can you find Dung Shan, the other guy here?

[04:36]

Yeah, he's the founder of that Tsao Dung school. Tsao Shan should also... Well, the whole school there is not in there. See? So where it says school, there's a whole bunch of stuff happening there, which isn't on this chart. Next week, I can give you a chart on that one, but that's just one to get the overview here. So does that make sense? Where it says school there, there's a lot of people there that aren't listed. Well, for example, Dung Shan's dates are 807 to 869. And Shui Fung over there, Shui Fung over on the left there, he's like 822 he was born.

[05:58]

Linji died in... See the Linji school over there? He died in 866. Yeah. In Yunmen, Yunmen's dates are 862 to 949. Huh? Yunmen. The Yunmen school. The founder of that. Yunmen Wenyun. his dates are 862 to 949. And Darshan is 780 to 865, the teacher in this story. And Yanto, his dates are 828 to 887. Well, the... Huh? Yantou, you know, Y-A-N-T-O-U, the main character of this case.

[07:11]

He's a disciple of Darshan. And actually, you want to really mess this up nicely. Oh, no, you have that. She got that, right? Okay, so... What does it mean when Shito... What? And there's this lineage that goes straight down, and then the silicone kind of goes over to the side... Under Shito? Yeah. All three of those people are disciples of him. This was the teacher of all three of these people. No, he's a teacher... Go this way? Yeah, all three of those... So coming from him, you have all three of those schools come from him. The Tsao-Dung school, the Yen-Men school, and the Fa-Yen school all originally come from Shito, Stonehead.

[08:14]

So just in the manner of teaching, of awakening and losing it, then after Desham, Nanto sort of returned to this, it's a slightly different way of seeing how the line goes over there. from Deschamps over to Yantou, if he goes to the other side. Well, actually, where it goes from... It goes from the far left side here. In other words, he's the teacher of all these people at Xintang. And then, so this group of people was studying in a particular manner, it looks like, and then One of Deshan's disciples, Yan To, returns to studying in this particular... No, this is different. That doesn't continue. She just touches her hanging mid-air. This is her handmade thing, right?

[09:16]

That To-Zu-Da-Tun, that ends right there. Yan To doesn't have this. But Yonto does have a disciple. Maybe it's better to make Yonto over to the... To the left. To the left. And then Yonto does have an important disciple. One important disciple. So you have Yonto, 828 to 887. And his disciple is... The way I'd Romanize it would be J-U-D-I, J-U-D-I, Judy, who's also known by a Japanese name, Zuigan, Z-U-I-G-A-N.

[10:20]

He's the guy, that famous story where he gets up in the morning and he calls to himself, Master, and he says to himself, Yes. And he said, All day long. And I said, Are you awake? And he says, Yes, to himself. He said, all day long, don't let people fool you. And he says, I won't. You know that story? That's Vigan. He's a disciple of Yung To. When does a school, when and how does a school become a school? Well, these are like lineages, right? All these are just lineages, a transmission from a teacher to a student and so on. But then later, looking back in history, scholars have said oh that lineage over there had a particular style and that one had a particular style and that one had a particular style and so they they saw these five very notable lineages among all the thousands of lineages of teacher disciple in in china they noticed there were five real important ones

[11:36]

five distinguishable styles. And there are other lineages which might have been distinctive, too, but weren't important enough to be mentioned. However, there's cross-fertilization among all these schools, too. So I think that... I don't know, that... Well, because the next natural question is style. What the style is? Yeah, to contrast styles, that may be too big a question. Well, I mentioned it last week, like I mentioned the style of those three schools. I mentioned the style of the Sao Dung school, the Linji school, and the Ven Mun school, because they're all three are kind of demonstrated here in this case. And also in the previous case, They were there too. Well, not the Linji, but the Yunmen and the Deshan and the Damshan were there, either in the case or in the verse.

[12:48]

Okay. But before I go further, I wanted to say another piece of feedback I got back from your class last week was that when I said something about be careful of this case, you might blow a fuse or something like that, I said. And one person told me that he felt a little bit like I was saying... well, you can't really study these cases by yourself. You need guidance. Or you need my help. You need the help of the teacher to study this case and so on.

[13:52]

I guess my main point in what I was saying about be careful of this case was that I first of all wanted you to do your homework in the sense of I wanted you to be aware of yourself. First of all, that's most important. If you never study these cases, that wouldn't be so bad if you studied yourself. And if you are going to study these cases, then you'll be much more successful and they'll be much more relevant to your life and to the lives of all other sentient beings if we are grounded in our own experience, our own state, that we're aware of what's happening to us. Without being grounded, certain types of insight practices can get very heady and kind of cuckoo. So I just meant that. Also, part of your homework is to just learn the language and the characters in these stories because, again, unless you know the context of some of these people, your mind may go off on various interpretations, which is okay that you go off on those interpretations, but it just... In fact, I think it's good if you just know who the characters are.

[15:23]

I think your interpretations will be... sort of something more, something that we all can join in together if we all have the same history behind these stories. That's all. It doesn't mean that you're not supposed to make weird interpretations or anything like that. That's quite all right. But just that we have a shared understanding of who these people are and what their histories are and who their family is and stuff like that. So that's kind of like, in a sense, I think when you're studying this kind of material, you'll be more successful if you do your homework. And your homework is the work you do with yourself, and you do it at home, so to speak, in your own body with your own book. Once with this preparation and with this concentration, then when you come to the case and you come to class, we can go from there.

[16:29]

And I also want to say a couple other things about this, just in this class. which goes on for a long time. And I don't repeat certain things often enough, perhaps. But it's not like I'm saying that I'm here to tell you what these stories are about. It's like I want, what I want to have happen here is that in this room with the people who are here, something happens such that there's realization about what these stories are about. Um, There's three pure precepts.

[17:40]

The first one is to avoid unwholesomeness. The next one is to do all good. That's kind of the basics of Buddhism, in a way, in terms of how to take care of yourself. Stay away from activities that limit and go against your life. and do things which develop your energy, like practicing generosity and patience and so on. The third pure precept is called benefiting other people, and the main way to benefit other people is to teach them. The Sanskrit word is sattva-kriya-shila, the precept of developing or maturing or purifying beings. main way to develop people is to teach. It isn't exactly you teach them, but that teaching is happening.

[18:46]

And I kind of see the teaching happening in a conversation, a dramatic conversation between people. And this dramatic conversation happens sort of at a point which is inconceivable to us. We don't understand what a conversation at a point is. Or the conversation happens in the present where there's no, you know, there's no linearity there. That's the main, that's the essential way it happens is it happens in the present So we say inquiry and response come up together. So the conversation in which beings are matured happens simultaneously.

[19:51]

It isn't like I say something to you and then you say something back to me and it helps me. It's like I say something to you and you respond at the same time. that I say it. But we can't conceive of that. Our linear brain cannot understand liberating activity that's simultaneous. The core cause and effect aren't separated by a line. But in the realm of the conceivable, we think in terms of linear things. We also think in terms of narratives. So the inconceivable simultaneous realization of the way together gets mapped out or gets stretched out over time into a story so that we can get our conceivable brain around it, so to speak, our conceivable equipment around it.

[20:55]

So these stories are narrative forms of a moment. So we can get into the moment through these stories. So the dramatic conversation stretches out to be like this story we have tonight. But in a situation like that, it's very mutual. I mean, it's not very mutual, it's just mutual. The event is not this person to that person. The event is this inquiry response coming up together. That's the reality that is the realization. That's the reality that's being realized. And that's the difference between this kind of study and some other kinds of study. what looks like ordinary study of transmitting knowledge or something like talking about lineage charts and finding out who's where on the chart, it's not like we stay away from that idea of learning or that idea of a class.

[22:04]

But we should understand that that's not all that's going on here and that's not all we're trying to do here. And another thing that's involved in this kind of process is that we're working with something that is, you know, very big. Basically, it's called, it's infinite and it's eternal. So since we're working with that kind of material thing, it's possible to blow a fuse on it if you apply your brain to it. And if you don't apply your brain to it, it's possible to get inflated if you get a hold of it. So this type of material, where we're dealing with the relationship between our limited human personality and something that is unbounded and eternal,

[23:10]

There's a possibility of, if you grab such a thing, if you grab such a relationship, or you grab the eternal or the unbounded, if you grab it, you can get inflated. And the teacher can get inflated, the student can get inflated, and also the student or the teacher can project inflation onto the other person. So you can... So this kind of stuff happens. And around inflation, lots of power gets activated. So that's another part of what's going on. And now we are working with the relationship between the limited human ego and eternity, but we're also working with something even more intense, and that is the non-duality. of the eternal with the limited, which the previous story about the busy one and the unbusy one is demonstrating.

[24:14]

So, you know, right now you can say, is this the limited or is this the eternal? Is this the temporal or is this the eternal? Is this the limited or is this the unlimited? Is this the busy or the unbusy? where these stories are pointing to the intersection between these worlds. And this story is pointing to the intersection of these two worlds, where this monk actually straddles the two worlds and says, is this holy or mundane right now? Is this holy or ordinary right now? So in a situation like that, this is a typical situation in this class, is to look at that place, to look at the threshold where the two worlds meet, or the threshold where we can straddle the two worlds.

[25:20]

And in the straddling, we don't exactly know if we're straddling. Maybe we're on one side or the other. Maybe we haven't straddled, and maybe we switched over into the holy. Or maybe we're in the mundane. And again, playing with this material, unless we're grounded in our own experience, we can sort of flip out, out into very grandiose, off-the-ground kinds of thoughts. On the other hand, if we think we're just dealing with the ordinary, that's not quite right either, because that's not exactly what this class is about. So it's both very ordinary and not. And we don't necessarily know which is which. And therefore, people are hesitant sometimes to speak because, you know, maybe this is very holy or maybe this is very ordinary. And maybe the feeling that's coming up in me is a very ordinary feeling. Or maybe this is a very holy feeling. And if it's ordinary and everybody else is holy, maybe I should shut up.

[26:25]

If everybody else is ordinary and this is holy, maybe I should shut up and not let them mess around with my holiness. Or maybe that person's holy and I'm not. Or maybe that person's holy and holding it away from me, and I feel bad about that. But maybe I shouldn't say I feel bad about that. Well, actually, again, coming back to the ground, I really want us to be grounded So that if you feel bad, you just feel bad, and then from being there, you can say if you want to, I feel bad, I feel upset. It's okay to say that. You can say that in this class. You can say I'm upset. You don't have to know why. You can say that kind of thing here. Maybe that's important. Maybe that's as important as kind of an intellectual question, which is quite safe.

[27:28]

Or an historical question, which is kind of safe. Those are also okay, those questions. All questions are okay. But also I'm saying that when you ask a question, just check out with whether your feet are, you know, in your socks. Make sure you're coming from your body and mind, that you haven't spun out too far and asking a question from a question of a question. Now, even if you do ask a very abstract question and get way away from your body, that's okay too. It's just that part of the response you may get is, well, where are you asking that question from? If a person asks a question from, you know, not their own place, not their own body, not their own skin bag, then there may be a question back to you, is that question coming from your skin bag, from your body? Which is, you know, I feel that question's okay too.

[28:36]

So we need you to come forward with your stuff. And it's okay to come forward next week or after class, that's okay too. But if you can do it in class, you model to the other people that they can do it in class and we can all enjoy this together. We can see people who are coming forth with their response to what's happening here. And we can see how we handle it, how the rest of us respond to it. And again, I know it's not easy to come forward in this situation because we're dealing with potentially powerful stuff, intense stuff. And... I know it's not so easy, but the more people come forward, the more people will come forward. The more people come forward and survive and seem to be helped and be helping, the more others will be encouraged to do the same.

[29:47]

I've said this before and I'm saying it again because I just felt the need to do so. Okay? Any comments at this point? I didn't understand what you were talking about referring to the holy just as opposed to the ordinary, the context. Well, um... And just what came to mind is something's happening and you don't know what it is. The holy isn't necessarily something happening that you don't know what it is.

[30:53]

It's more like it's already happening, but you haven't recognized it. And the place it's happening is, must, if something's already happening, must be happening right in the same place where the things you do know are happening are happening. Does that make sense? I mean, we each of us know something about what's happening. We each have our little view of what's happening, right? There's also something happening at the same time, right, at the same place, which we don't know about. For example, I mentioned the fact that whenever you do anything, you're met. That's happening now. But we don't know that. We can't know it. We cannot know this kind of thing. And that's an example of what you might call the divine. Or the holy. Or, you know, reality.

[31:58]

It's happening, but somehow we can't recognize it sometimes because we think it should look different from this. It's right there. it's not what's going through our head, but it's also not separate from what's going through our head. It is actually the nature of what's going through our head. It is actually the nature of what's, what we're feeling. And that's always, that's always reaching completely. And if we would see that, we would be, we are at that point, um, greatly relieved of, uh, we're greatly relieved and released. And our full function as creatures is realized. And our full function as creatures is precisely what we are. That's our full function. Nothing more than that.

[33:00]

These stories are conversations which bring such a thing to... maturity, bring our true nature to maturity. Okay? Should we look at the case now for a little bit? So people are probed with words. Water is probed with a stick. Pulling out weeds and looking for the way is what is ordinarily applied. Again, this strikes me as the first two pure precepts, in a way.

[34:15]

Pulling out weeds and looking for the way. Practicing good, avoiding evil. Looking for the way. Now suppose someone suddenly leaps out. Suppose suddenly there leaps out a burnt-tailed tiger. Then what? What do you think this burnt-tailed tiger is about? What? Yes, and what else? Face-to-face with a demon, yes.

[35:19]

Straddling the fence, uh-huh. Something that will consume you. Something you're concerned with. Or a dramatic conversation. A dramatic conversation. A shout. A shout. What do you call it? What's this? I don't know. Pushing the weeds away. avoiding evil, doing good, that's good, part of it. If you don't do that, you won't get much, you may not get a chance. But to mature beings, after this is done, then maturing beings happens in this conversation, in the dynamic, dramatic conversation.

[36:22]

That's where benefit occurs. So here's the story. When Yontel came to Deshan, He straddled the threshold and said, Is this ordinary or holy? Deshan immediately shouted. Yantou bowed. Have any of you been straddling the threshold this week and asking, Is it ordinary or holy? You have? Did anybody shout at you? Did you get any response? See, now, in the conceivable realm, it's hard to get people to play sometimes. I tried that down here in the threshold right downstairs. I stood there and I said, is this ordinary or holy? And nobody said anything to me. You didn't say it loud enough.

[37:28]

Jordan? Silence be. Can we shout? But there was a response, but it's hard to see. The narrative version of the story wasn't played out for you and me. But would someone like to do it now? Would someone care to be these characters and play these parts? Yes. You would? You want to be one of the characters? Could you walk over there by that back door there, please? And would someone be Deshan? This is Yantou here. John is Yantou. Lloyd? You're going to be Deshan? Huh? Okay. Come here. Come here, Lloyd. I want you to be over here.

[38:29]

Sit right here. Okay, now, there's kind of a threshold there between Otto and Carolyn. See the space there in the door? Straddle that threshold and ask the question. Is this ordinary or foolish? Ha! Who's going to be Dushan? I mean, who's going to be Dungsan? Who will be Dungsan? Word got out about this story and Dungsan heard this and said, Anyone but Yantra would hardly believe it, would hardly get it. And Yantra heard about this and said, Old Dongshan doesn't know good and bad. At that time I was holding up with one hand and putting down with one hand.

[39:33]

Ha! Well, before we read the commentary, how is this? What is holding up with one hand and putting down with one hand? Oh, you want to talk about that? Here, you can go back to your seat now. Thank you. So what about this holding up with one hand and putting down with one hand? What do you think? I have no idea. No idea, okay. Any thoughts about this? Judgment? Yanto is saying, I was making distinctions.

[40:36]

Sounds like another version of straddling. Another version of straddling. Why did he say that old Dungsan doesn't know good and bad? I think he means I was still making distinctions between ordinary and holy. And that's why I... My question is a bad question. Would you say that again? I think it means I was still making distinctions between ordinary and holy, despite my question is a bad question. I think you're saying that... Don't try to create a compliment. Say, he's not recognising good and bad, he's just seeing. That he's just seeing Buddha-tama people.

[41:46]

Were they complimenting each other? Were both of them being complimentary? That's what I thought. Yeah. It's possible, but why would Yontel qualify what he said? He was complimenting him by saying, Old Dongchun doesn't know good and bad. What's the qualifier after that, at that time, I was hoping? It's just a spoiling. That's his confession. I was screwing around, holding up holy and putting down ordinary. I was going like this, holy, ordinary. But he's not into noticing me. He's not into really making judgments about that. So he said this thing about me. That's one way to read it. He was holding up holy and putting down holy. Holding up holy and putting down holy. Was he doing the same with the ordinary? Yes. I think he's referring to his vow. Not only to his question, but to his vow. His bow was doing what?

[42:58]

Well, that he was actually, he could be referring to the fact that in his bow, he was holding that up as a holy act. Then actually confessing that he was doing it. But he went back to have tried an old trick. Uh-huh. Previous guys before him, and it was sort of a reflex. Uh-huh. That kind of got off easy a little bit. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Maybe the bow was actually a shower. It was only one bow. Good. That could be taking me in equilibrium for inertia. Hands holding each other. Uh-huh. Holding up with one, putting down with the other.

[44:00]

It could also be both and, but not either or. It's both up and down, not either or. Right. And it's interesting what Harlow said, because Chinese way of bowing, we don't know how he bowed with. I should look up that character for bowed. But Chinese way of bowing, like this, right? You're holding up with one and pointing down with the other. Want to check out the commentary? Deschamps ordinarily beat the wind and hit the rain. What does that mean?

[45:05]

See him out there? This is a crazy, useless person. One day, so there is, we've got this guy that's out there doing that kind of stuff, all right? And one day, Yanto... spread out his sitting mat. So maybe he was coming up to Yanto's place, up the stairs, and the teacher was standing there at the door or something, so he put out his bowing mat to bow, right? And then Yanto, and then Deshan took his staff and just pushed his bowing mat down the stairs. Okay? What? So that's the picture. Got the picture? So he pushed it down the stairs with his staff, and Yantou went down, gathered up the mat, and went off.

[46:12]

The next day, he went up and stood by Deshan, and Deshan said, did you learn this empty-headedness? Yantou said, I never fool myself. Deshan said, later on, you were shit on my head. When the father hears his son is strong, he regrets not being killed himself. Only when one's view surpasses the teacher is one capable of passing on the transmissions. How does this work?

[47:23]

Does it mean when you surpass the teacher, does that mean the teacher regrets not being killed herself? Is that what it means? What I found is that But the student no longer just repeats what the teacher is teaching. Is that one way? Is that kind of shooting on the head? Well, I was thinking that that was a way of digesting material. Well, I'm trying to take that in. What's the way of digesting the material? To get them back out of your own, not just repeating what you do.

[48:26]

Right. Well, in fact, that's what people really do do all the time anyway. They must do that. Thank you for making the Lenny's chart. We have a question for you. Do you have one? Now, we're, you know, on the place where you have over on the far left, where you have Deshan. Yeah. And underneath you have Sui Fung. Yeah. Right? And then over to the right, what is happening over there? Where's Yan Tao? I don't know. Also, you didn't necessarily, so Yontal maybe wasn't even on there. Does anybody have moon and dew drop? Yeah, okay, well, does anybody have moon and dew drop? How far away is it?

[49:28]

Wow. We'll check that out for next week. Anyway, Yan Tao and Sui Fung are brothers, right? So they both come off of Dushan. Anyway, thank you for doing that, Martha. So Sonia was saying something about when you receive a teaching, a part of what may be involved there is that you digest it. And digestion involves, I like the Chinese word for digestion. I believe it's a combination of two words, two characters. One character means to transform. I think the other character means to destroy, if I remember correctly.

[50:33]

So digestion, if you receive a teaching, you have to destroy it in order to digest it. Hamburger or even... What? To destroy it and assimilate it, to bring it in. Right. So hamburger, of course, or even vegetarian dishes like cooked spinach or even milk, if you happen to get into the bloodstream, would be not good for your health, right? So it has to be broken down into sugars. and proteins and stuff like that before it can go into the bloodstream. So the teaching tract has to be broken down by the receiver. And a student who really can take the teaching and really digest it, a strong child, a strong son or a strong daughter,

[51:40]

Then what's his business about the father or the teacher regretting not being killed himself? Do you understand that? What that's alluding to? Well, when the relationship changes. there can be some little bit of sadness about that. Yeah. Because at one point, the teacher was here and the student was there, and now the student has come up here or there, and the teacher feels some little sadness because he isn't there himself, and the student is. I don't think he feels sadness, does he? How would you put it? Well, you can be happy, but there's an element of sadness about it. For me, it could shake up your center.

[52:45]

It presents maybe a whole different worldview that would either extinguish you or it could shake you up so that it would change your own view. It would no longer be your own view. And your student would have done that to you. So it's very disturbing. But in being disturbing, it's not bad. It's just very disturbing. I think it must be relieving, not disturbing. How would it be relieving? Well, because your son is secure. You don't have to worry about providing them a home any longer. They have their own home. So that you can regret not being killed at this point. You can regret not. Your old life should end. Why is he regret not? Yes, I think that's how the meaning is. You regret not. Oh, that's an interesting way. It's the right way.

[53:47]

It also kind of reads semantically like the son must have been in danger of being killed as well because it reads being killed himself as if both were in danger. And did someone die? Other than the father or the teacher? Are you asking a historical question? I'm asking a question that it seems like both parties were in danger, or that someone died and that he's not regretting it. It wasn't himself. The word himself wasn't... I think that killing means that the son no longer copies his father. He's killed his old self. And I think when the father sees that, and sees that transformation, which is Could that also mean Dharma transmission, a realization that something has passed on, that he himself regrets that he didn't, that this process, he didn't once again go through it?

[54:55]

Mm-hmm. Is that the intersection? Is that the intersection? Yes, that's the intersection. Just parenthetically, I want to mention, I looked at the Munna Nidra, the... lineage chart here, and look, they just didn't put in Yantou. And that line, that person named Gantan Jiguo, that really doesn't connect with the person above, just like I said before, like that Tozu Datong is not coming down into there. Just, that's all that's listed on there. So this should, this is, that should . Yeah. Thank you, Hermann. So as Jan mentioned, we're talking about this, this intersection, this dangerous intersection.

[56:11]

which I think probably does have signals on it. But these signals are... I don't know who's running the signals. I think that's the best way to look at it. Where was the intersection? I missed it. The intersection? The intersection is... Let's see. Yantou says, I never fool myself. And Deshan says, later on you will shit on my head. That's the intersection. Those are the two streets. I never fool myself, and later on you will shit on my head. That's the intersection. And at that intersection... When the father hears that his son is strong, he regrets not being killed himself, or he regrets not being killed himself.

[57:20]

I think both of those can be at that intersection. And only when one's views surpass the teacher is one capable of passing on the teaching. What does it mean for your views to surpass the teacher's? at this intersection, what does it mean for your views to surpass your teacher? To be free of. To be free of. To see for yourself. To see for yourself. So it's not, you're reading it not so much in the sense that your views are better than your teachers, but just that you've received your teachers and you're not, and you've, You've gone beyond them. You're not holding on to them anymore. You're not to choose as a better. You've just gone beyond. Huh? Not dependent. Right. Yes. That's the disciple of Yondo.

[58:24]

Excuse me. Okay. Wait a second. I told you wrong about that pronunciation of Yontel's disciple. Excuse me. You know, Zwigan? It shouldn't be Judy. It should be... Gu Tai is Judy. Yes. So under Yantou, the Chinese should be... I don't know what the Chinese is.

[59:29]

What is it? The Japanese is Zuigan. And the Chinese is... In the old, in the way Giles kind of thing, it was J-U-I-Y-E-N. So it should be J-U-I-Y-E-N. Huh? R? J-U-I-Y-E-N. J is... This is Voi Giles. It's J-U-I. So what is that in Pinyin? R-U-I. So R-U-I-Y-E-N. That's Zuigan. That's Yontel's disciple. Zuigan, that's the story I told you about. Master, yes. Are you awake? Yes. That's that story. That's the disciple of Yontel. That was right. I gave you the right story, but I spelled his name wrong.

[60:30]

The guy who held his finger is a different guy. His name is Judy. Judy, which is... The guy who held the finger, the guy who held his finger all the time, that's Judy. Gute. In Japanese, Gute. Or Judy in Chinese. Excuse me. Where were we? Huh? Huh? Sorry, Andy. Excuse me, Andy, please. Why don't you tell the story? What's the story? He held up his finger all the time. Yes. Oh, that's right. And then eventually, one day he demanded... You better tell it. So this guy, whenever people asked him about anything, he held up one finger. And he had this nice little young man who was his attendant. And one time a monk came to the temple and ran into this... Ran to this boy, his attendant, and said, well, what's the meaning of Buddhism?

[61:36]

And the little boy held his finger up. And then the teacher, Gute, or Judy, found out about this through the grapevine that this kid had done this, held up the finger to this visiting monk. And so he called the boy in and he said to the boy, he asked him the same question and the boy put up one finger. He grabbed the boy's hand and cut his finger off and the boy was awakened. And he said, then he called his name, the master called his name, and the boy turned, and the master went like this. And the boy was like... You hold a fist finger, or we kill the fist? Yeah. There's some ambiguity about this.

[62:38]

Is that light blowing out the light? Very similar, isn't it? Very similar. And remember, Deshan was the guy in the story about blowing out the light. Right? Deshan, Virtuous Mountain and Dragon Pond was that story. Okay, so... We have this thing here of shitting on people's heads, which has something to do with going beyond your teacher. You have to shit on your teacher's head. Now, I think it is true that the teacher feels relieved that her head is being shat upon, because she knows she doesn't have to worry about her disciple anymore. But still, there is shit on your head which is not that comfortable. I think the sense of relief is more profound than the embarrassment of being more or less... What do you know?

[63:46]

There's also the loss. There's loss of loss? Probably. Loss of what? When the sun goes away and the sun becomes... That too, but that's different. This is like loss of your teaching. Your teaching has just been outmoded. I mean, your life's work has just been kind of like shot down. Because what your life worked for is to help this person, right? Which is done, but now it's useless. It's done its work. You're done for. Might as well be dead, but also the other side is You can die in peace. You've done your work and you're miserable. He's free of your shit. And it's on you now. Well, it's not really on you. It doesn't stick to you. He just said he had to shit on you to get free. And you don't have to hold it on. This doesn't stick to your head, though.

[64:49]

Well... There's some other things we can act out here. This question is referred to everywhere as the state of straddling the gate. But he did not necessarily actually straddle the gate to ask at first. So what state is it that's straddling the gate? What state? This question refers to everywhere, is referred to everywhere as straddling the gate. Hmm? Hmm? So this question at the beginning of this case is the famous straddling the gate story. Are we understanding that?

[65:54]

In olden times, an outsider concealed a live sparrow in his hand and asked the Buddha, is the sparrow in my hand alive or dead? The Buddha straddled the gate with his feet and asked, tell me, am I about to leave or enter? The question, is this ordinary or holy, truly contains this principle. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. In the old days, it is said that puhua, so somebody want to be puhua? Anybody want to be puhua?

[67:00]

Puhua, by the way, means universal flower. Hm? You be puhua? So you stay right there for a while, okay? Universal flower. And then can we have someone here who would be Linji, the great master Linji. Here's a picture of Linji. You think it's funny, huh? Hey. Okay, so one day, this is an abbreviation of the whole story. One day, you want to be Linji? Sure. Okay, so one day Linji was together with two quite old priests.

[68:04]

Do we have any real old priests here? Oh, could you come up here and sit here? So maybe your name could be Muta, okay? Sure. Oh, Muta. Oh, Muta. Any other old monks here? Any other old monks? Yeah? Oh, okay, come on up here. You can sit down here. You can sit right here. And you are... Oops. What did you do to her? I hit her in the head. Sit right there. Yeah, sit right here. And your name is... What's your name? Your name is... He Yang. This is old He Yang.

[69:05]

The old Hylian and the old Mutha. Okay? And here's Lungu. He's younger than them. He's a great Zen master. But he's younger than them. These guys are older than him. Okay? So they're sitting around in the monk's hall with Zendo. They're by a little, kind of like a little fire pit to warm their hands and stuff. Having a little chat. Okay? Okay? And Linji says... Tell me. Wait a second. Excuse me. Linji says... Linji's got this relationship, a very dramatic relationship with this monk, Pu Hua. Okay? Linji and Puhua are kind of always having these outrageous conversations. It's true. So Linji says to these old codgers, he says, every day Puhua goes through the streets acting like a lunatic who knows whether he's a commoner or a sage.

[70:24]

Okay, you say that. I'm telling you. Where are we? I'm telling you, I looked up the background. This is the record of Lin Ji, this book here, okay, which has got the whole story. This is only abbreviation in this book, okay? So we're acting out the whole story, which you don't have in the book, okay? The whole story is that Lin Ji has this guy named Pu Hua who has these very dramatic conversations with him. All right? This guy Pu Hua is a wild guy, really wild. So Lin Ji says, every day, Pu Hua walks through the streets acting like a lunatic. Who knows whether he's ordinary or holy? Okay. I'm saying that to them. You're having this little gossip session. Yeah, you're having this little gossip. We're two old guys, okay? Let me say that.

[71:26]

Every day, Fuqua walks through the street acting like a lunatic. Who knows whether he's... Who knows whether this is... Okay. That's your one. You guys are just sort of like... Okay, now, just before he finishes, you say your line. Okay, ready? Linji. Hit it. Every day, Pu Hua walks through the street acting like a lunatic. Who knows if this is ordinary or holy? Tell me, is this ordinary or holy? No. Pei Yang. No, no. That's right. That's right. Ha! Pei Yang is a new bride.

[72:29]

Muda is Old Lady Chan. along with the little pisser of Levenshie. After all, they have one eye. This old thief. Thief! Thief! Okay, get the story and do it again. What do we do? You know, I... We had this improvisational theater class one time, and one of the key things in a play is when one person's speaking, It's a good play. These people are responding. It's like that. And when she's talking, they're responding. But we're not told what these people's response is. So you watch these people to how great a play this is.

[73:32]

This is Erjan. This is Erjan. This is Muta. OK? You're talking with them. OK? Watch these guys. And then you come in. OK, ready? Every day Gu Huan walks through the street acting like a lunatic. Who knows if this is ordinary. Tell me, is this ordinary or holy? Ha. Hei Yang is a new bride. Mu Tai is old lady chan. Along with the little pisser of Lin Ji, after all they... This old thief. Now, when you said this will be, who are you talking to? I'm actually a G. Are you talking to him?

[74:33]

Or one of these guys? Or yourself? Who are you talking to? I have no idea. Well, do we have a drama carriage here? He's shouting at... Pooh Wah talking to them. Is he calling Pooh Wah the thief, do you think? Huh? Possibility, isn't it? Yeah. That's the kind of relationship they had. Yeah. What do you have to feel about that? Are you calling him an old thief? Sure. You want to play that way? Okay. And who are you calling? When you say, you're running, you're walking off saying, feet, feet, who are you talking to? I think I'm just echoing what you're saying, mocking. Well, are you... On my vacation this weekend, I walked up Senior Hall on TV, and...

[75:34]

He was saying that Dan Quayle said that, you know, Murky Brown's being a single mother is kind of mocking fatherhood. Thank you. Do you understand? You understand what I mean? And so Arsenio Hall says, well, Dan Coyle, you're a father mocker too. If you're given to be president, you're out of your father mocking you. A long time ago, a fellow who I knew who was a card shark, related an experience where he was in a game and things went a little sour, and he grabbed the stakes off the table and ran for the door.

[76:45]

And the people that he had been playing were a little older and a little slower than he was and they couldn't keep up. So they started shouting, thief, thief, after him. And he started shouting, thief, thief. What are you guys doing? We're just too old to care. Witnesses. Witnesses, okay. They are the great chorus, yeah. I'm just trolling. Well, there's one eye thing in here. It's like, are you saying you're half blind? It says here... Well, there's two ways to hit whenever... There's other stories like this, too, you know, where... Puhua and Linjie are interacting, and Puhua says, the master has an eye, has one eye. Now, one meaning of one eye is the master has the one eye.

[77:47]

The other meaning of one eye is when we have one of two. So this translation here is... Linji, the young pisser, but he has the eye. That's the translation I have in this book. He has the eye. That's one translation is he has the eye. He has the one eye. The one eye. Is it like the inside? He has the eye. He has the eye of truth. But the other meaning, which... In some ways, if you look at the stories, it makes more sense because they're always fighting. He's always saying, well, Linji's got one eye. He's mocking him. I can't remember what Puhuai used to say when he walked down the street. That's the other story. Do you want to get that one out?

[78:50]

Yeah, that's the other story. You guys have been great. Thanks. Really. I used to walk down the street saying, when they come in the light, I hit them in the light. When they come in the dark, I hit them in the dark. Lies! So, you know, those monks' staff that the monks would carry, the staff with the rings on top, he'd walk through the streets, you know, banging his staff and ringing those bells, and he would sing. Puhua would sing. Coming as darkness, I hit the darkness. Coming as brightness, I hit the brightness. Coming from the four quarters and the eight directions, I hit like a whirlwind. Coming from empty sky, I lash like a flail.

[79:52]

Flail, like a flail. So then Lin Ji told his attendant to go up to Pu Hua when he said these words and grab him. and ask, if coming is not at all like this, then what? OK? Follow that? So Puhua walked around the street saying this all the time. So Linji heard about this and sent his attendant to go up. And as soon as Puhua said that, grab him and say, if coming is not at all like this, then what? So the attendant did that. And then Pu Hua pushed him away and said, there will be a feast tomorrow morning at such and such a place. You know, invite your teacher to come. So the attendant returned and told Lin Ji about this. And Lin Ji said, I've always held wonder for that fellow. Then there was the feast the next day.

[80:57]

And so... One version of it is that when they got together, they put the food out, and Puhua took his dish and put it on the floor, on the ground, and started eating it, you know, with no hands, just straight off the plate with no hands. And Linji said, Puhua, you're eating like an ass. And Phu Hoa said, . And Linjie didn't know what to say. The great master didn't know what to say. He couldn't handle it.

[82:07]

And Pu Hua said, the master has one eye. Again, the ambiguity there is, does he have the one eye? Is he approving the master? Or is he saying, Benji only gets half of this. Only can see part of this. Now, one of the interesting things is that when a scholar was visiting here a few years ago, he told us that that story I just told you appeared in an earlier collection of stories. And in the Linji Lu, in this record, which is a record in tribute to the great master, Linji, the story was changed so that Linji had something to say when Pu Hua said, hee-haw, hee-haw, the master said. Thief! Thief! And Pu Hua said, Thief! Thief! and walked off. But in the earlier version, Pu Hua was like more equal with Lin Ji and kind of like beat him in that interaction, in that story.

[83:14]

Even though Lin Ji was still a big leader of the community and Pu Hua was like this, he was like a trickster is what he was. He was like a trickster or a joker. in the Buddhist community, you know, catching these leaders, testing them, and being kind of a wild person. But really having good relationships with these people and having a lot of access. Okay, so this story is in here. And then after this story, later, this person named Shoshan said, of these two thieves, there is a real thief. Tell me, which is the real thief? Then, in everyone's behalf, he said, Liu Benji. And in parentheses, it says, who was installed as a second successor to the throne of China after Wang Meng, usurper of the Han dynasty's claim to rule.

[84:27]

Now, what is that about? What's this in here for, this story? What about the statue of Manjushri? Well, oh, you think the reason why the story's in here because of the connection with the statue of Manjushri?

[85:43]

Is that what you mean? Is that what you're thinking? Well, yeah, but the question's the same question, right? It's there because of the same question, all right? But what's his business at the end there about which is the real thief? What's this thing saying? And he answers on his behalf, Liu Benjie. What's that about? Was that somebody who was alive at that time? No, long time before. Han Dynasty is way before this. So this monk asked, this story happens, right? Then later this monk says, of these two thieves, there is a real thief. Tell me, which is the real thief? And then he answers, Liu Benjie.

[86:44]

It sounds like he's making an analogy between you know, Benji's relationship to who he succeeded and what's going on there, but I don't understand, actually, what that relationship is. Well, he stole the throne. He's the successor to someone that usurped the throne. So this person took the throne, and it's unclear how long maybe he, through cunning or whatever, and then he's the successor to the guy that stole the throne. So it makes him like a double thief. Double thief, yeah. Double thief, right. Because he didn't do it himself. He stole the booty. He stole the booty. So we have something here about thieves. And somebody said, now, which is the real thief? And he refers to this successor to somebody who stole the emperorship or the throne of the Han dynasty. So what he's saying here is that Lin Ji is a thief.

[87:44]

All right? And then the person who steals from Lin Ji is the real thief. Is that what he's saying? That the thief, the real thief is the one who stole from the first thief. So Lin Ji, is Lin Ji a thief? And now this guy's stealing from Lin Ji. I think it's the person that inherited the stolen throne. Pardon? The person who inherited the stolen throne. The stolen throne. Yeah. Is the real thief. The claim to rule. The claim to be a sovereign. The claim to be awake and sovereign and independent. Okay? So again, part of the dynamic of this intersection is Independence happens there.

[88:48]

And independence is established through your connection with that from which you will become independent. That's what's happening at that place, right? And in a sense you're stealing something too. You're like getting something from somebody so that you can be independent from them. Okay? You need this connection so that you can get rid of the person and you won't need him anymore. Does that make sense? And the person knows that this is necessary and is very happy about this and relieved if you can pull off this threat, this theft or this succession and then get away. The person is very happy and relieved about that because this person knows you'll be okay. Also this person is having some trouble with that too. Because you don't need them anymore.

[89:52]

And they become obsolete. And et cetera, et cetera. Now, if you look at the verse, the verse continues the same, inquiring to the same place. So I think we have another week on this story to go a little bit more deeper into this dynamic here. Again, as I proposed, this place of intersection where learning happens has all these dynamics going on, all these tensions. of succession and theft, of relief and disappointment, of becoming successful and obsolete at the same moment, or becoming successful and become the new effective rendition of this lineage. And all these emotions, too, that are being mentioned here are part of what's going on at this place.

[91:00]

So if you can stand it, we'll look at the verse next week. Well, actually, the rest of the commentary before the verse in the verse. So one more week on this story. And thank you to the actors who were willing to come forth and dramatize this. And I leave you with the question of if in your daily life can you see this drama? If our intention

[92:02]

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