Yuen Mun has basically, he has four sicknesses, right? The name of the case is Two Sicknesses. That's a nickname for four sicknesses. All right? Can you turn the light off, please? Yeah. So, these are called Four Sicknesses, but they're also to be called Four Levels of Enlightenment. Actually, I guess all of our states could be called, could be considered levels of enlightenment. We were all at some level of enlightenment. And these are actually four very high states of enlightenment, these four sicknesses. All right? And we didn't talk about the last two? Briefly. Briefly? Okay.

[01:01]

So, oh yeah, I sort of just zipped through them at the end, I didn't mind. Okay, the first two we did in some detail and I sort of put them, I put them in correspondence to a traditional Buddhist description of relief from certain kinds of obstructions, right? And another way to put it is in terms of realization of two levels of selflessness. Does that ring a bell? You have a question? I have a little thing I didn't understand last week, which was the kleshas. Yes. What they are. Kleshas are... Well, what they are is that they're things like greed, hate, and delusion are kleshas, pride.

[02:10]

And sometimes when they describe the kleshas, they describe them in terms, there's one way to describe them in terms of six kleshas. And one of the clashes is called view. And view means not just the way you see things, but actually a fixed view. And that sometimes is basically four fixed views, so sometimes they speak of ten. Five plus view, and view can be expanded by four, which makes ten. So there's view, which has one or four, and then there's anger, lust, doubt, and pride. Anger, lust, doubt, pride, and... I think there's two kinds of pride.

[03:17]

Does anybody know what I'm forgetting? Anyway, there's something like that. And the four views are, one's called holding to a, holding to some conventional view of reality, I mean of morality. So whatever, if you have whatever you think morality is, It's your conventional view, however you see it, or if you belong, if you have some precepts in mind that you practice, whatever your understanding of that is, which also you think other people share, to hold to that is one of the views which causes you problems. Another view is belief in materialism. materialistic view. Another view is belief in extremes, either belief that things are eliminated, annihilated, or that things continue to exist.

[04:35]

And... What's the other belief? What did I say? I did say doubt. And then the other view is... Extremes? Materialism. Self-view is one of those, huh? Well, yes. Belief in self, I guess. Satkaya drishti. Maybe that's it. Belief in the self. And doubt doesn't mean speculative doubt or existential doubt. One kind of doubt is This is nirvana? This is complete perfect enlightenment? This is the manifestation of ultimate reality?

[05:39]

That's one kind of doubt. That's not a problem. You wouldn't have that kind of doubt unless you had quite a bit of faith. You know, you have to have enough faith when somebody tells you that this is nirvana or this is perfection, you have to have enough faith to sort of take that seriously and think, my God, that's really interesting. How can that be? All these people are Buddhas? Hmm. That kind of doubt is not a problem doubt. That's existential doubt. In other words, how is it that existence is... peace, tranquility and freedom. That's not a problem. Part of the kind of doubt that's a problem is a doubt which says, if Zazen doesn't produce these results by next Thursday, I'm going to quit. Or, Zazen has not produced the kind of results that I hoped it would produce and I've been practicing now for three years and I think that's unreasonable, you know.

[06:46]

and I'm going to quit unless I get what I want. This kind of doubt is not so good. That will corrode and undermine your practice. The other kind of doubt actually can be quite helpful. I mean, it's a characteristic. It's not really helpful, it's just a characteristic that naturally goes with faith. That you actually have a kind of a question about that, or it doesn't quite all hang together for you. Anyway, those are the kleshas. Now, when you have this, when you have the first sickness, where the light is circulating, they talk about it not circulating, but it is circulating. It's circulating enough so that you don't believe in a self anymore. You still can have a view of a self, but you don't believe in it anymore.

[07:47]

And you're relieved of... You're relieved of that belief. Sat kaya drishti. Sat means truth, kaya, body. And drishti means view. Truth means the view of the true body. It means the view... that it's really true that there's a self, that there's a body of a self, sakaya drishti, you're free of that at the level of the first sickness. And when you're free of that, you also remove what's called The klesha avarana, the obstacles due to the kleshas, they're removed. Not suddenly, all at once, but because of this new view, they start to be removed. They're now beginning to be eroded. So basically the kleshas are dropped through that view at that time.

[08:54]

That's what removes that. Is that enough on that? I mean, we could go into that in great detail, but... So that's the first one. The light circulating enough so that you're liberated from belief in the self, you realize the selflessness of the person. When I say you're liberated from the belief in the self, it means you're liberated from the belief of the self of the person. When you were talking about doubt, saying that this doubt, when you're sitting and saying, I haven't gotten any results, and if I don't end it, it's been three years, or whatever the case is, this is not a good doubt. This is corrosive doubt. Right. Well, it seems to me that that takes zazen... Another way to put it is to think about how zazen is working, or how zazen is doing what you want it to do.

[10:00]

That way of thinking is connected to, for example, the doubt that zazen is working very well. There's another kind of doubt, which is not that zazen is not doing what it should be doing, or what you'd like it to be doing, But it's a doubt which is, is this zazen? There's that kind of doubt. That kind of doubt's fine. Is this zazen? Is zazen functioning? That kind of doubt. There's not a problem. The other kind of doubt is kind of corrosive. So what's your question? I'm not sure, so maybe you can clarify it while I ask it. It seems as though that the corrosive doubt takes zazen out of being the middle way, because the opposite of what I think is the opposite of what you're saying would be to just use zazen. And if that's all there is, is to just use zazen, that seems like an extreme, if that's all there is.

[11:08]

Which one takes zazen out of being the middle way? It sounds like if you take this attitude that is corrosive doubt. That takes zazen out of being the middle way? Because... That's right. Another way to put it is that the healthy kind of doubt or existential doubt is that the only problem you have in your life is the problem of zazen. That's existential doubt. Having the problem of zazen or the mystery of zazen is healthy. But to have the problem of why isn't zazen accomplishing this, this and this, that's not so healthy, that's corrosive. although Zazen will accomplish this, this and this, if that's how you're practicing it, it's not so good.

[12:17]

That's a klesha. And it's good to... So at this first level now, this first level here, of the life circulating but not freely, you start to be relieved from that way of doing Zazen, you start to be relieved of that. You start to be relieved of this subject-object thing. However, the light is not yet fully circulating, so you still think something's out there. You still think there's some object there. Even though you've been freed, you don't believe in subject-object anymore. You still a little bit act like you do. You still feel something's out there a little bit. In other words, the obstacle due to knowable, due to knowing something, that obstacle is still there. And in the next one, that is removed.

[13:18]

In other words, you're relieved of the obstacle of things being out there, which is the obstacle due to just knowing things, the nyaya avarana. Nyaya means knowable. or the avarana, the covering due simply to knowing things. That one's removed at the culmination of the second light or the second illness. And again, both of these are levels of enlightenment, but if you camp out in them, they're both really sick. So at the end of the second one, the second obstacle has been, the second obstacle or second hindrance or second covering has been removed. Well, actually the third, if you count as karma avarana, throws three. And as it says in Hartsutra, when there's no hindrance, no fears exist.

[14:23]

That's the same. That's talking about these things, when these obstacles are removed. So the person at this point after this is over, doesn't have any fear anymore. Well, that's sort of before this. You know, these two, these first two lights, or these first two sicknesses, happen after considerable practice. a lot of practice, and that earlier practice is removing the obstacles which won't allow you to settle down in your meditation enough to basically drop body and mind. So, for example, this thing of expecting something from Zaza and I to serve a schedule, that kind of fixed view about how satsang should be working, or greed about how satsang should be working, or anger about the way it is working and not the way it does work, all these kinds of things, these kinds of obstacles are removed prior to this first light.

[15:34]

Okay? Yes? Could you say something about satsang, which you use in numbering? Well, a simple way to put this is that human beings that experience, not human beings, but anyway, living beings, when they have experience, what this experience can be accounted for you can account for all the elements of any experience by the five skandhas, for example. If you look at an experience, you can say, if you look at these five skandhas, you can say, everything that anybody can come up with as constituting an experience, you can see as, that's those five aggregates.

[16:40]

And if you can see that this five aggregates accounts for whatever experience there is, and you look very carefully, you'll find that there's nothing more that you need to have in order to account for what's happening moment by moment. And the more you see that, the more you see that you don't have to have a self in addition to that. Let's just go a little further, okay? When you see that clearly, that's the first light. In other words, you see that you don't need a self to account for what's happening. You can walk around without one. Or that what the self is is not really something in addition to the five skandhas. It's just one of the five skandhas. So it's not really a self. It's just like a feeling or it's an emotion or it's a concept or it's a form of consciousness or it's a form. So you're relieved of the belief in a person in addition to these elements of existence. But you still may believe that there really is such a thing as anger. Or there really is such a thing as a color. Or there really is such a thing as consciousness. Or there really is such a thing as a feeling. Or there is such a thing as all these different elements which you experience now in a situation of being relieved of belief in the self, you still believe maybe that they're out there.

[17:51]

And the reason why you feel that way is because you sort of know them, you're still knowing them, you're still knowing the experience, even though you're not saying it's a person anymore, you still kind of sort of know that there's an experience there, something seems to be happening. You're no longer saying it's out there, but you still sort of think something's happening. That's why I said for the second one, subtly, it seems like something's there, right? But things have gotten pretty subtle. You no longer have any people walking around here that you believe in. The illusion of a person can still exist, but you don't believe in it anymore. But you still think something's out there, some shred of something that goes together to make the illusion of a person. You still think something's there. That obstacle is the obstacle due to simply knowing something is happening. And that's the limitation of the second one. But by the time you finish the second one, when you get past the second one, off the end of that one, you don't have that obstacle anymore.

[19:01]

You don't have the obstacles due to believing these things. You don't believe that any of these elements which go together to make an experience not to mention the whole experience, not to mention attributing a person to that, you don't believe that any of this stuff exists. And this is, basically, I mean, that is what's called the Dharma body. That's called the body of truth. I mean, the body of truth has now landed in your life at that point. This is, you know, enlightenment. Enlightenment. And there's no more training necessary. I mean, you've got the accurate picture of things now. You've realized two levels of emptiness or two levels of selflessness. You're in excellent shape. There's no better shape to be in than the shape you're in. Okay?

[20:04]

That's the First, it's called the first sickness of the Dharma body, however. Why is it called the first sickness of the Dharma body? Because the person is kind of over onto the side of the Dharma body. When you first land in the Dharma body, when you first land in enlightenment, guess what? You've got a problem of having landed there. You're sort of there. You're sort of there more than where you used to be the rest of your eons of existence before that. You have the problem of landing, you're over on the side of the dharma body. You haven't forgotten the dharma. You haven't forgotten the truth. So although you have realized the truth, you have not forgotten it, and you're sort of kind of over in there, kind of a little bit stuck in realizing the truth. But the truth you've realized is perfect. So, how are you doing?

[21:11]

Sounds awful right. Awful right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem. It's awful right. Awful right or right? Awful is awfully right. Awful. It's awfully ripe, too. It's not really ripe, but it sounds awfully ripe. It seems extremely auspicious, it's awful, it's full of awe, and you're full of awe, which is awfully good, it's awfully good to be full of awe. Things are good, but they're a little bit too good in a way. That's the problem, and that's why this is a sickness, that's the limitation of this. You don't believe in a self of a person, you don't believe in a self of experience. Which means you don't believe in the self of anything. Okay? But there's still some sense of self lingering in there. It's the self now of truth. It's the self of the truth. It's the self of the Dharma body. Some little things are there. Not to mention, forget about, this is not to say that you would stop there and think about there.

[22:17]

That again makes all states better, no matter how low they are or how high they are. But that's the fourth state, the fourth of yin-men's illnesses. I mean the third, excuse me, the third. The third, the third, the third, yes. But that's still, you said that's enlightenment? This is enlightenment, yes, it is enlightenment. So enlightenment can have sickness? It can have sicknesses of two kinds. One is that this kind of enlightenment is the enlightenment that there's still your... The sickness it has is twofold. One is if you would stop there and somehow camp out there and set up shop there, which, believe me, it's hard not to, I think, for people, because this really is quite an achievement. I mean, way back there, sickness number one was quite an amazing achievement. I said that last week, right? If you just look over the ocean of Buddhist practitioners... Look over the ocean. Millions and millions and millions of Buddhist practitioners, very few get to that stage at a particular snapshot of Buddhist practitioners.

[23:24]

And then very few, even a smaller section, get to that second sickness. And very few, even less, get to this third sickness. This is a really amazing state. However, it has the problem of, when you first get there, of You got there, that's the problem. But the place you have gotten is really, you've gotten to the place. Are you still believing in something in that place, that there is no self and there's no other? Is that still a belief? I mean, it sounds like you're still believing in that there is no self and that there is... You don't believe that, you're much better than that. You don't have that belief? That stuff's been cleared up. You say that again, that kind of problem. Say it again. Well, it sounds like when you're describing the third stage, that you had gone through the first two, and that by doing that you had a belief that there was no self and nothing out there, nothing here and nothing there.

[24:31]

You don't have a belief that there's no self, or that there's nothing here and nothing out there. You don't have that self. No. You're beyond that. This is big-time freedom, this number three. You don't need that kind of stuff. When did we jump to number three? When did we jump to three? When? You mean you missed it? Okay, everybody, back out. We left somebody behind. That's the whole thing, leaving people behind is the sickness. That's the sickness. Basically, all these sicknesses are basically leaving somebody behind.

[25:36]

That's what they're about. Just say it, Jim. Could you take a guess, where was Dogen Zenji when he dropped body and mind in China? Where was he, in his scheme? In his scheme. Turning in Dogen Zenji, where were you? What did you call my friend? Okay, now, just to go, just to get to number four, basically. Number three. Number three. Number one is this breakthrough, okay? Is this penetration where you actually enter the Buddhist path. You become what we call stream-entered at that point.

[26:36]

Okay? That's number one. You drop body and mind. You're free of belief in self. Okay? Forever. You never believe it again. However, you still act like you do for a long time because you have all these habits which you accumulated when you didn't believe in the self. During the second path, the light circulates more freely and freely and eliminates all the behaviors which were accumulated while you didn't believe in a self. Okay? That's what happens in the second sickness. By the end of the second sickness, all the habits you have, which were developed during the time when you believed that there was a self, they're eliminated. You're completely cleaned up. You not only don't believe in a self, you act like you don't believe in a self. people can slap you in the face, and you turn that into an occasion of benefit.

[27:41]

People insult you, people praise you, everything that happens to you is no longer an affliction, and you can turn that to benefit. And people think you're enlightened. You look great at the end of that. Now the light is circulating freely at the end of that second path. All right? Then you move beyond that into a space of what it's like simply to have realized you're now living the life of an enlightened person. Or, I shouldn't even say that, you're living, the life of enlightenment is lived beyond that, beyond that second sickness, beyond that light. There's no longer something out there, there's no longer something subtly existing, and you're all cleaned up. This is the Dharma body? Yeah, the Dharma body.

[28:43]

It's called the first sickness of the Dharma body because still, there's still some sense of self. which is lingering in the form of some belief in that you haven't really forgot the Dharma, and you're a little bit falling over into the side of the Dharma body. But this Dharma body is just fine, it is not a problem at all, it has no limitation. The only problem is you're a little bit leaning over towards it, or another way to put it is you haven't really forgotten the Dharma. What is this leaning over? It's not believing in this. It's something different. What is leaning over to? Sounds like you're drunk or something. Yeah, it's a little bit... You're a little bit drunk. A little bit drunk on enlightenment. That's probably a good way to put it. You're a little bit intoxicated with this perfect freedom. You're not used to it. You don't know how to handle it quite.

[29:45]

but there's no more work to be done on you in terms of, you can't get any better, there's no way to get any better than this. You can't clean up your act anymore. So then, that's why I go on to the fourth sickness, or the second illness of the Dharma body, is that then what, all you can do then is to protect yourself from your intoxication and clean yourself up from any sense of attainment or... You know, make sure even more you haven't left anybody behind, all that kind of stuff. Yes? So you moved from dropping the sense of self, and then in the third one you dropped self, but you haven't forgotten the Dharma, you haven't forgotten the path that got you there. How can you explain four as a further step than just those simple words? In four, now in four you... you realize the problem of three.

[30:46]

At the beginning of four... Oh, you realize that you still have the path that got you there. Yeah, and you realize that you're kind of a little bit sort of... I mean, there's some problem in realization. That you're now... Now you've caught on to that. And... So now you... Now at the fourth stage... I mean, it's kind of like, after all this, I still have to keep working and watch out for the problems of perfect enlightenment? Yes, you do. Okay. The person is willing to keep working and watch out for the problems of having attained the dharma body. This is really very humble. very diligent, on top of the... at the top of the mountain of attainment, this person's still working to watch out for all the slips and slides you can make there. And they're willing to do it.

[31:48]

So it's like the belief in attainment? Well, it's not really a belief in attainment if you're watching out for the belief in attainment now. You're like the belief in attainment? Me? Me? You don't believe in attainment. No. You watch out for that. You spot that and it evaporates. You put it up there, it evaporates. You watch it all the time. You're not caught by anything. You're not even caught by the not being caught. I mean, this is really perfect. However, there's this one final thing which is somehow, as it says there, what breath can there be? Still there's some feeling like, nothing could possibly be better than this. Which is completely true. Nothing can be possibly better than this. Therefore, since nothing can be better than this, therefore this is the final illness.

[32:55]

And this one is incurable. Forget about camping out there. This is an incurable disease. That's the fourth one. Just by being a human being. No problem. No problem. No problem. This is a great lucky sickness that we have. So, you're saying that you have to camp out there? Oh, no, no, no, no, don't camp out there, no. Where do you go if you're not camping out there? If you camp out, you go right to the bottom of the thing again.

[33:57]

Whenever you camp out, you're done for. You lose everything. You can never camp out anyplace. But this final one, even if you don't camp out there, then you, in a non-camped-out way, realize that you have an incurable disease. So it's you and your pistol. You have to keep doing that. You have to keep watching out for that, actually. You have to keep doing that work. You can't... What do you call it? You can't stop doing that work. That's a necessary thing to watch out for. But still there's a... There's more work to be done even beyond that, but there's nothing you can do about it. That's why it says, that one guy said, he talked, what is it, Jian Feng, he talked about five. He had a kind of transition one there between what we call two and three. He had another one in there, which we can talk about. But he had five, and he said, after you go through each of these five, you have to know, furthermore, that there is an opening going beyond.

[34:59]

And so the opening going beyond is kind of a way of saying the final illness. Let's have some other people asking questions. I mean, yes? I think at one point we were going to say something about the man-type heritage thing. Yeah, we will, but not... Thank you. Is the camping out disease one that is not particular to a stage but happens at any point? At any point, including right now, wherever any of you are right now. Wherever any of us are right now, camping out here, is camping out is always off the track. You think you're kind of low on the totem pole of Buddhist practice, camping out there is pretty much, actually in some ways it's a little bit less bad to camp out down low than up high. But it's always off the track of the Buddhist practice to camp out.

[36:09]

What's on the track is to not camp out and to go straight on, as the old lady said. That's always the way. To not hold on to whatever stage you're at, no matter how low or high it is, you need to go forward. That's our practice. It's just that as things get higher, I mean, some people are having trouble not holding on to their low states. Have you noticed any of those people? I mean, they really think now, this is so bad, this is so bad, I certainly should be entitled to hold on to this. I mean, nobody can fault me for this, for holding on to this. And then at the other end, you can say, well, nobody can fault me for holding on to this because this is absolutely the... But actually, it's harder not to hold on to the higher ones than it is to not hold on to the lower ones. But always the problem is holding on. Yes. You didn't ask, so you get one now. You raised your hand, right?

[37:11]

Yeah. Didn't you say, I'm not sure if I'm just confused here, that all states of mind are enlightenment? You said that. All states of mind are enlightenment. I'll say that, sure. I might do a little thing. All states of enlightenment as they are, are enlightenment. I mean, all states as such are enlightened. The way things actually are, no matter what state it is, that's awakening. Then we got to this thing about how enlightenment and the dis-ease have this relationship. Does that mean that all states of mind are also dis-eased? Does that mean that? Well, they certainly can be, but in their suchness there is a relief from the disease.

[38:20]

Without insight into that suchness, there is simply disease. Pardon? Without insight into the suchness of that state of mind, there is simply disease, right? When there's belief in the non-suchness of it, that's disease. When there's belief in some experience or some state, that's disease. It seems to me that all of these diseases are not the same thing. It's conceptualizing about itself. You know what I mean? I'm not sure if I do. It's conceptualizing about itself. You or I, and conceptualizing about what I experience. To me, that's what they all sort of boil down to, in a way. Because they all sort of end up being about a belief or...

[39:31]

sort of a looking at what's going on. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's what I was saying a few weeks ago, that the basic thing is this... is confusing the attributing of... confusing the belief, the believing power, the power of believing in things, confusing that with the things, is the basic mojo that creates the suffering. And to realize that these... are always separate, and that all you have before you is just purely conception, that all that's happening is just conception, or just an idea, then that's basically the relief. But this idea thing is infinitely subtle and tricky, so it takes us a long time not to be caught by it. Stuart? Yes. Bhajan has another system, it appears, of three stages, of three steps.

[40:38]

Seeking nothing, practicing without seeking anything, not making an attainment of seeking nothing, and not making an understanding of not attaining. And I'm wondering if these three levels correspond to the, in some way, to the three levels, the four sicknesses that we're talking about here. Thank you. But I think we better not talk about it in this class right now. But I'd be happy to talk to you about that. Thank you. Or anybody else that wants to talk about it. But right now we're just trying to get this little presentation, okay? Yes? What stage of these sicknesses you're talking about does the Bodhisattva come in? And when do you know how to save all such things?

[41:40]

Well... Or skillful beings, what does that mean? Let's see, there's... Well, is it... And what's the sense of being if you don't believe in yourself or anything? which you asked several questions there. In a sense, a bodhisattva appears as soon as you make your first vow. A bodhisattva is born. But in a sense, there's another definition of bodhisattva, which is... which is maybe like that first sickness, that the bodhisattva's path in some sense starts when you practice giving. That's in some sense the beginning of the bodhisattva actually becoming an effective bodhisattva is when you first start giving.

[42:45]

So that's another definition of bodhisattva which would require some attainment, you know. So one understanding of bodhisattva is just when you first think of making the bodhisattva vow. The other meaning of bodhisattva is when you actually have produced the thought of enlightenment. So some people... So there's two kinds of beginner's mind. One kind of beginner's mind is the beginner's mind of Zen Center, right? It's called Soshin. Another kind of beginner mind is called hōtsu, hōshin, or hōtsu shin in Japanese. Hōshin means producing the mind. Sometimes we say hōtsu bodai shin, producing the bodhi mind, producing the bodhicitta. Okay?

[43:46]

You know that term, bodhicitta? Bodhi means enlightenment, citta means mind. giving rise to the Bodhi mind. When that's produced, you have a Bodhisattva. But there's another mind which is just the first thought about thinking about practice or wanting to help people or something like that. That's the very beginning mind. Before you even created this bodhi mind which actually can think of beings in infinite directions and infinite times and space and wanting every single one of them without exception to be completely enlightened and having no resistance to that. That's another definition of a bodhisattva. So there's different definitions of when the bodhisattva path will start. But it's possible to attain this first light or this first level and not be a bodhisattva.

[44:47]

You could be just doing it for your personal realization without having the bodhisattva vow. You wouldn't, in that sense, be a bodhisattva. Okay? You will have achieved enlightenment a very important stage of enlightenment, you're a stream-enterer, but you aren't necessarily taking on the project of enlightening all beings, and that particular track is not a track to Buddhahood, you know, the way a Bodhisattva track is to Buddhahood. Now, later, that track will run into trouble, and then you'll have to change trains over to the Bodhisattva track in order to attain Buddhahood, because Buddhas, what all the Buddhas did, is all the Buddhas not only attained that level of liberation from belief in self, but they also took on this immense project of enlightening all beings without exception. So in order to get on the bodhisattva track, or the Buddha track, you have to not only have that relief from belief in a self, but you also have to have this enormous enterprise of limitless benefit for all beings.

[45:52]

So it's possible to have quite a personal breakthrough and not be a bodhisattva. It's also possible to be a bodhisattva but not yet have that personal breakthrough. What we want to have is the two together. Because without this personal breakthrough, your bodhisattva work is undermined. If you believe in a self and try to work for the benefit of all beings, vow to... Sajjipis are numberless, I vow to save them, you can say that, and sort of feel that, but not have fully realized that thought. You said you have a feeling or something? Yeah. Yeah, the intensity and the limitlessness of checking it out and really feeling the full consequences of that vow. Like a lot of people say, well, I don't want to say that vow because there's a few people I don't really want them to be... I really don't want them to be saved. Like I certainly wouldn't want to save Hitler if he was around.

[46:58]

Or I don't want to save... certain people in the world that if I think about them and imagine them, I don't want to save them. So that's why I don't want to say the Bodhisattva vow. But another way to practice is to train yourself and to work to make yourself able to take that, you know, if you can't take the vow, make that vow now, you can work on yourself so that you will be able to learn how to later take it. So if you can't receive it now, then Prepare yourself to receive that kind of commitment or make that kind of commitment. Yes? Yeah. Joaquin was next. I have this idea that a certain level of enlightenment corresponds to a level of sickness. Yes.

[48:00]

Yeah. So, I said, there is this four level, four level, four dimness. You're talking about an incredible dimness. In the other extreme, there is an incredible enlightenment. Yes, right. In darkness, there is a little bit of light, you know? Okay, but I'm thinking, I have two questions. What is a human being? Another invention of this is that there is a great enlightenment corresponding to a great darkness. Because there's such great darkness, we have really great enlightenment. Okay, my questions are, first,

[49:01]

No, it doesn't happen. If that happens, it's a sickness. If somebody attains enlightenment and stays there, it's a sickness. That's not reality. You go from darkness to light, from light to darkness. Dwelling in light and reality. Making mistakes and then suddenly realizing that this mistake doesn't exist, or something like that, I don't know. You're always like this in life. In life you're always swinging back and forth? Yeah. Even, let's say, Buddha?

[50:06]

Maybe so. Well, anyway, if you're certainly in life always changing, even Buddha. As a matter of fact, that's what Buddha is. Buddha is that this is all changing. That's the... Oh, my second question is that to be a Buddha, You must be free of this coming back and forth, back and forth. To be a human being also you must be free of that. In fact, human beings are free of that. That's why they do that. It isn't like this is going on and the Buddhas are someplace else besides where that's going on. The Buddhas are right there. That's because they're free, they're right there. But human beings are right there too. Human beings and Buddhas are right together there.

[51:07]

There's no like, there's not many human beings are going like this and the Buddhas are over here watching and saying... And it's also not like the Buddhas say, hey, man, we can do this. Watch. Watch me ride this. Woo! Woo! See, no problem. I can do this. I'm a Buddha. Or this, or rather, not I'm a Buddha, but this is Buddha. This thing right here. Just completely happy just doing this with all sentient beings. But the sentient beings are doing that too. The sentient beings are going just like that. So the Buddhas and sentient beings are both swinging back and forth together. One, one, one, one, one. and the Buddhas are enjoying it, and the sentient beings are not. But the sentient beings are doing the same thing the Buddhas are doing, same ride, and the exact way that the sentient beings are doing it, that is the way the Buddhas are enjoying.

[52:14]

Very close, very intimate situation. We are incredible. Huh? We are incredible. We are incredible. You are incredible, I am incredible. We're incurable too, that's right. Same thing. Is this what's incurable? The swinging? What's it talking about? It's talking about it, yeah. We can't stop talking about it. And that's our great gift. We're the ones who talk about it. Okay, now are you ready for the verse? I believe in faith the same thing. Well, you know, we have these words, English words, belief and faith, right?

[53:27]

Generally speaking, the way I've been using English or learned to use English through practicing Zen is that usually beliefs are a problem for us. To believe in things... Usually is it kind of an attachment? That's the way it seems to be. Like, I don't know, can anybody think of beliefs that aren't like belief, like attachments? Yeah. Is it a mistake then to believe that you can save all beings? Is it a mistake to believe you can... Is that an attachment? To me... Is that a vow? Is a vow an attachment? To me, you asked some questions, but one of them back there, the answer was yes. The first one. So that's a mistake. Do you believe that you can say... It's a mistake to believe that you can save all sentient beings. Yes, that's a mistake. However, mistakes are how you learn.

[54:30]

So if you make that mistake, you probably learn what the vow means. So if you take the Bodhisattva vow, I vow to save all sentient beings, and then when you make that vow, as a result of making that vow, you believe that you can save all sentient beings, that's a mistake. But that mistake will lead you, for example, if you come and tell somebody that that's what you believe, then they will say, that's a mistake. And you say, no, it's not. And they say, yes, it is. And then you can argue back and forth. And finally, you maybe agree it is a mistake, but then you learn that that was a mistake. In other words, you took the Bodhisattva vow, and then you believe that you could save people. Well, that was a mistake. But then that mistake taught you that that's not the way we mean by save all sentient beings. It's not that you think you can do it. That's not what we mean by I vow to save them all. It doesn't mean that you say, well, that means I can save them. Or I believe I can save them. That's not what that vow means. Okay, but the second question I asked was, is a vow, is that an attachment? A vow is to say, I want to save them all.

[55:36]

That's a vow. Now, what I just did there was a vow. I don't know if you noticed it. But when I did that, I didn't think, oh, I'm going to save them, or I didn't think, I didn't believe I could do that. I just said that. I just put myself in a line, and I'll do it again. Sentient beings are numberless. I vowed to save them all. That was a vow I just did. But I did not believe that I could do that when I just did that. Therefore, I didn't make a mistake. Also, I didn't learn anything. Now, if I had believed what I did... Wait a second. Couldn't you follow? Huh? What? I got a little confused. So did Colin. This is a confusion line right here. What's the matter? I just did a vow.

[56:39]

I know how to do that vow. I did it. I didn't make a mistake. I didn't learn anything. But if I had, or if I will, or if I did think that I actually, if I believed that I could actually do that, that I could do that, that I believed that I could save beings, if I believed that, that would be a mistake. That's a mistake. Not just if I do it, but if you do it too. Anybody who does that, that's a mistake. That's not what it means. Nobody can save anybody. Okay? All right? But just because nobody can save anybody doesn't mean that therefore you wouldn't say, I vow to save them. As a matter of fact, the people who really know what it means to say, I vow to save them, are those who know that nobody can save them and that there's nobody to save. These are the people who really enjoy making that vow most. A vow is when you actually kind of like, sort of, a little bit get what it means that there's a lot of people.

[57:48]

Okay? And you actually, you actually kind of open your heart up, and you go out there, and you actually... you really want them to be happy, and you actually are pretty much willing to do anything reasonable, I mean, anything that would, in the long run, or maybe even in the short run, be helpful to any of them, in the slightest bit, until you help them all completely. That's what the vow is, to have that feeling, and then to say it, and to feel it, and to commit yourself to it. That's the vow. But that does not involve you thinking you can do it. Do you see the difference? You can want to do something for somebody without thinking, oh, I can do it. Or even that I'm going to do it. So you believe you want to do it. Not you believe you want to do it. You do want to do it. You want to. It's just a want. It's a desire. You want to do it.

[58:50]

And this comes right out of your tissue because, in fact, everybody else is you. And you want to be happy and you want them to be happy. But In fact, you cannot do this. It's something that they have to do. Other people have to work too. You can't do this. It's not really something to be even done. It's just the way we already are, really. But getting back to belief, okay? Belief is, generally speaking, something that seems to be a problem, as far as I can tell, in Buddhist practice or religious practice. Like belief, like... Belief seems to be stiff to me. Beliefs, you know, like it's this way. Yeah, belief seems to be sort of fixed the way most people use the word. Faith is just to live, you know. Faith means you want to make bodhisattva vow? Faith is to make bodhisattva vow. Faith is to go sit in the zendo.

[59:53]

Not to go think that you're going to... Not to think, oh, if I go sit in the zendo, then this is going to happen. That's not faith. That's a belief. Faith is to go... Faith is to be in the zendo, sitting there. That's faith. That's the way I use the word faith. Faith is not to say, this means that, or this shows that, or this will produce that, or this won't produce that, or this will help me save all sentient beings. Those are more like beliefs. Faith is... to just sit there and to save all sentient beings. That's faith. So I use them sort of differently. I don't think you're saying faith is action. If action is what's happening, then when action is action, that's faith. Faith, you know, the Buddhist word faith, the word that's usually translated in Buddhism as faith is shraddha. And shraddha, the root means to sink down into something. You kind of like sink down in it.

[60:57]

So your faith is kind of demonstrated by where you're at. It's not kind of like what you go around believing, because, I mean, a faithful practitioner, a faithful Buddhist, probably often has little stories buzzing around in their head, you know? Like, I mean, maybe they think, I don't know what, you know? Men are difficult, or... The government thinks, or people at Green Gulch are wonderful, or this is a great landscape. Various thoughts or opinions happen to a faithful Buddhist, maybe. But their faith is kind of the fact that they're willing to be that person. And they're not trying to trade this person in for another person. that they're kind of sunk down into their experience. And they've heard the Buddhist teaching of that you're supposed to kind of like be where you are. So they walk around, you look at a faithful Buddhist and they kind of look like, there they are over there at the sink, you know, washing those dishes.

[62:07]

They kind of seem to be there. That's faith. In other words, that's more than faith, that's that the faith is radiating. You can kind of see it. So that's why I thank you at the beginning of this class for your faith. Your faith is that you're willing to study these cases, that you're willing to listen to them, read about them, discuss them. Not that you think you're going to learn, not that you think that's going to accomplish something, that's not faith. Not that your agendas or desires are about this, that's not faith. The fact that you actually show up and study this stuff, and the fact that I'm here too, is faith. I don't believe that studying these cases is going to do some good. I don't have that belief. I have a faith called studying these cases. And that is the faith, I believe, this is a belief, I believe it's the faith that the people in the stories had. But aside from my belief, which I want to now forget about,

[63:15]

My faith is to study these stories and that's it. And then this faith, this belief props up saying, they did it too. People in the stories study the stories. But I feel better when I just study the stories rather than saying to myself, you know, all the people in the stories study the stories. So you should do it too. Then you'll be like them. I never thought of it before. I always will. It's an incurable disease. What time is it? One o'clock. Okay. Are you ready for this verse? No? Okay. Go ahead. Something doesn't quite make sense to me, which is... Why study the cases versus anything else if you don't have some belief system that says that you should study the cases?

[64:17]

If you're going to have faith, why save you rather than her? Why? Did he say why? Did he say why? Did you say why? Did I say why? We do it wise. You don't answer. You see where that leads us? Why study this if I say why save you rather than save her? Anyway, on Mondays I save you, on Tuesdays I save her. In this class we study this, in another class we study something else. Okay? That's why. If you give me a newspaper, I'll read a newspaper. Give me a menu, I'll read the menu.

[65:17]

Give it to me upside down, I'll read it upside down. Until I figure out it's upside down, I'll turn it right side up. That's why. So we can talk about whys. You want to talk about whys? Let's just watch how this works. Let's observe the fact that when you have a class on the clones, what happens, right? They're this kind of class. And then if we go to another class, and now Tom's like a sutra, it'll be that kind of class. And when you have no classes, it'll be that kind of class. We just keep changing the classes and we learn, according to the class, what we see how it works, right? Well, that's the emphasis, is cause and effect. Case 8. Here's the verse. The dense web of myriad forms is so precipitous, passing through beyond location blocks the eyes.

[66:34]

That ship, he's sweeping out his garden. Who has the strength? Hidden in a person's heart, it naturally produces feelings. A boat crosses a rustic ford, wet with autumn's aquamarine, sailing into the reed flowers shining on the snow, bright green. With a bolt of silk, an old fisherman takes it to the market. Floating in the wind, a single leaf travels on the waves. Okay, the first line could also be translated as instead of a dense web of myriad forms, is so precipitous, multitudes of myriad shapes allowed to be as is.

[67:43]

This is the first sickness. This is the first light. A dense web of shapes or forms allowed to be as is. And translated as another translation is so precipitous. The image here is an image of a mountain. of a sharp mountain. Okay? That's the image. That's the literal image is a sharp mountain, a precipitous mountain. That's the literal image. But the meaning, the usual, another translation of it is allowed to be as is. which is unfortunate to these two different ways of seeing it.

[68:59]

So this is the enlightenment and the sickness of enlightenment juxtaposed for one another? When you say as is, it sounds great. But using the word precipitous carries some bound with it, at least for me. what this is like is that something appears, and it's allowed to be as is. But when something is allowed to be as is, it's very precipitous. In other words, it's very sharply defined. Also, it's very hard to climb up it or take hold of it.

[70:01]

It's very hard to climb up it or take hold of it, right. When something's allowed to be, if you really allow something to be, you can't touch it. If you touch it, then what you've got is something plus your hand. And that's fine, but then that's what's precipitous, your hand on top of this thing. Everything that appears in our life is actually allowed to be. And everything is like a very precipitous event, in a precipitous, ungraspable, what do they say, nothing's lacking and nothing's added on to it. And this is the first the first sickness.

[71:01]

Is this sickness that you think there's nothing there? No, this is a sickness of you can't, I mean, you cannot help, but this thing is there. I mean, this is really something's there. I mean, this is a precipitous mountain. This is really allowed to be as it is. At this time, you are relieved of the belief in a person. The commentary says, the added saying is, let them be. How can they hinder you? If you know them, They're not enemies. This applies to demons.

[72:03]

How could they annoy you? If you understand them, they won't harm you. But at this stage, you can't help but think something's out there. But this is a really excellent situation. I mean, this is like, you know, everything you meet is completely sufficient. The narrowness of Stuart's face and the longness of his beard is freedom. Each little thing about each one of you that I see, just as it is, this is liberation. However, it's got a slight defect, namely, it's out there. It's a mountain. It's a great, wonderful, precipitous mountain. This is great, but it's not as great as the next one.

[73:11]

Next one is, passing through beyond location blocks the eyes. Now this one shows the limitation of the previous one, plus it shows its limitation. Another translation, boundless, thorough liberation still obstructs the eye. Now, in the first light, this wonder of whatever is happening has appeared to you. The miracle of every event, left to what it is, has happened. But it has the problem of, there it is. Now, you've passed through that. You've realized a boundless liberation which has now you no longer have this thing out there, the mountain is not, you're relieved of this mountain which relieved you of everything else, which relieved you of the kleshas, which relieved you of these defilements of wanting things to be other than the way they are.

[74:23]

You've been relieved of that, but still the way things are, left alone as they are, is still out there. Now you're relieved of that, you pass through that, you penetrate through the location of all these mountains. And someone said, well, is this like mountains or longer mountains? Yes. You know, first mountains are mountains, then mountains are not mountains. Now you're starting to get into mountains are not mountains. But it says... Boundless, thorough liberation still blocks the eyes. This liberation itself still blocks the eyes. And the added saying is really good. Adding a flapper to a flail.

[75:27]

You know what a flail is? Hmm? For threshing wheat? Yeah, for threshing wheat, but also it's something you flail around. You flail it around to thresh the wheat, right? That's what a mojo is, too, by the way. And what is it, a hot ladle? Yes. that the shamans whirl around. It's a shaman thing, like a drum, but it's a flapper. Probably, maybe that's where it came from. First they were threshing wheat and then they started swinging around the air and made a noise and they realized they were tuning the spirits. Anyway, you got this flail, right? And you add a flapper to the flail. What's a flapper?

[76:31]

A flapper is like a flipper. A flapper is like something that flaps. You know, like on an airplane, these things on the wings, those are called flaps or flappers. Also in the 20s in America, we had these ladies who wore these little skirts. They're called flappers. Flapper is like flap, [...] flap. Flap, flap, flap, flap, flap. But this is a flail, right? You have a flail. And you add a flapper to a flail. It's too much. It's too much. Here's another translation. Here's another translation of the Added Sing. you add visual rotation to the tip of a sparkler. Chinese characters have lots of different interpretations.

[77:38]

Yeah, a sparkler. You take a sparkler, right? And a tip of the sparkler. Yeah, right, like that. That's one way. On the tip of the sparkler, you have the sparkling, right? This is like the sparkling, right? That the mountain is sparkling. You can't even keep track of the mountain, right? And on top of that, you add, as Stuart's saying, like you spin the sparkler, right? You add a visual rotation. to the tip of the sparkler. Like you have a flail, maybe. And then you do something to flap the flail. So, even in this one, through the previous level, you're still adding something. So it still blocks your eyes. Namely, that's the next one. Okay? Now, sweeping out his garden, who has the strength?

[78:41]

Sweeping away the traces makes traces. The more you hide, the more you reveal. Again, now you've gone beyond the flapper with the flail or the visual rotation on the tip of the sparkler. Okay, you're in the Dharma body now. Okay? And the problem there is not forgetting the Dharma. So you even try to watch out for that. It's like the final traces you're eliminating now, the final imperfections of enlightenment, but still you make a mess. Wiping away marks, trying to conceal your visible, makes them more visible. And the next one, hidden in a person's heart that naturally produces feelings, or concealed in a person's heart itself makes an emotion.

[79:54]

And the emotion is, how could there be a breath, or what breath could there be? Still there's some emotion. There's still some feeling of, you know, there's still some incurable disease. And the added saying there is, suspicion in the mind makes ghosts in the dark. Doubt in the mind makes ghosts in the dark. So that's a poetic celebration of these four illnesses. What kind of doubt is that? The doubt is? It says so.

[81:09]

It says at the bottom. Well, the doubt is what breath is there? That's the doubt. How could there be a breath, how could there be even as much as a breath of inadequacy at this point? That's the doubt. You doubt that there could be any breath. That's your doubt. You doubt that there could be a problem. You doubt that there could be any more work to be done. There's some suspicion. It's a strange kind of suspicion. You have a suspicion. How does it go? It's a strange, strange, strange suspicion. Yeah. It's like you're suspicious that You're suspicious of the idea that there could be a problem.

[82:14]

You're suspicious that there could be any further disease, that there could be a disease. You're suspicious. You really, really think things are perfect. You're suspicious of the idea that there's any more work to do. You're suspicious of people who think you have to keep practicing after this. You really don't, you sort of don't think you have to. So there's a kind of ghost, there's a kind of ghost there. Kind of ghost. So you don't think that there's any going beyond. What? So you don't think that there's any going beyond. Right. There's a kind of ghost there. The ghost of what? The ghost of enlightenment. Enlightenment. And now that this is all said, we go into the final part of the poem.

[83:29]

All the times of enlightenment have been dealt with poetically, and now what do we have? Got this boat, right? A boat in autumn. Moving across some water. And there's banks. I guess it's like a river. There's banks alongside of this water. And there's reed flowers on the bank. You know what color reed flowers are? They're white. Reed flowers are my favorite flower of Chinese Zen. partly because they often talk about reed flowers in the snow, these white flowers in the snow. Anyway, in this case, it's autumn. There's no snow yet. These banks are covered with reed flowers.

[84:33]

There's a boat on the water in the autumn, and the banks are white. Bolt of silk can also be translated as a fish, a skewered fish, which makes a little more sense, right? Anyway, this fisherman either has got a skewered fish or somehow he came into possession of some silk. Either way, he's got something valuable. He's going to go to town to sell it. How can you help it? However, floating in the wind, a single leaf travels on the waves.

[85:36]

A carefree leaf sails over the waves. What's the leaf? What do you think the leaf is? Ourself. Well, okay. Anything else? Reality. Okay. The enlightened person. Yep, the enlightened person. Mm-hmm. What else? The not-enlightened person. The not-enlightened person, yes. What else? The just as they are. The just as they are, yes. What else? Life, do you say? Life. Yeah, life. One who isn't in a hurry.

[86:41]

One who isn't in a hurry? Someone who is unattached. Someone who is unattached? The incurable disease. The leaf is the incurable disease also. The stream mentor is also doing this. Someone said, in the city center class, someone said, well, in one sense you have this guy going into town, you know, to do all this, you know, to sell his stuff, or you have this Bodhisattva who's trying to help people. Now you have this sort of this real kind of relaxed leaf out there, you know, on the water. What about those stuff? Aren't those kind of different? You know, you really, the Bodhisattva vow to save all sentient beings and all these great attainments here, and then you have this leaf and... But this leaf on the water, this carefree leaf on the water, okay, it is a carefree leaf on the water. It is carefree. Why is it carefree? It doesn't have to worry. The water tells it where to go, right? The water goes like this. The leaf goes like that. The water goes like this. The leaf goes like that. The water goes like this. The leaf goes like that. When the water moves fast, the leaf moves fast.

[87:44]

When the water gets violent, the leaf gets tossed all over the place. When the water's real smooth, the leaf just goes. This leaf. Huh? This leaf is that guy in the first story. Remember the first story? That Sandaiva person? Remember that guy? Check that guy out. Sandaiva man or Sandaiva person. Check that one out. That's a Sandaiva person. It's each one of these stages of enlightenment. It's the final sickness. It's the great bodhisattva. It is the lowliest, most unenlightened person who is exactly getting flipped around by the water, carefree. The most unenlightened person is perfectly flipped around by the water. Exactly that way. the people on the pendulum, and the Buddha right there with them.

[88:49]

Going to market to sell your stuff? How stupid. Anyway, you can't help it. Being beyond all that? Yes, you can't help that either. So, there it is. A really nice poem, I think. The whole teaching is right there. about enlightenment, the whole teaching about that. And where we are is right there. It's who we really are. It is ourself, it's who we really are. And if it's not who we really are, or if we're not who we really are, that's right there too. So now we're ready to be yin-man, meeting jian-wang, right? Now you're ready when John Fung says, there's two lights and there's three sicknesses of the Dharma body.

[89:55]

You should go through each one of them and know, furthermore, you should realize that there is an opening going beyond. And then Yuen Mun comes up and says, what did he say? About the hermit? Why does the person on the hermitage not know what's outside? And John Fung says... And Yuen Man says, Still this is what the student doubts. And John Fung says, What is in your mind? I want the teacher to understand thoroughly. And John Fung says, Only thus can one sit in peace, and Yen Man says, yes, yes. Now do you understand this story? Well, I think now, I would think now is a good time to look at this story, now that you've studied this case.

[91:01]

Because this case comes from that story. That story is the root of this case. This case is a good helper to enter that wonderful story. But basically, folks, I mean, really, don't you understand? Yes, yes. Don't you understand yes, yes? Don't I understand yes, yes? And remember, if anybody doubts, they're welcome here, too. If anyone doubts, please come forward. That's what Yun Men did. He came forward, remember? He came out of the audience. but it's not easy to come forward. What's that song? When the red, red robin comes bop, bop, bop?

[92:06]

There'll be no more... Solomon. Solomon, when he starts... I thought that was a sweet song. When the red, red robin comes bob, bob, bobbing along, there'll be no more sobbing. He starts. I can't remember that. When he starts throbbing. When he starts throbbing. His own sweet song. There'll be no more sobbing when he starts throbbing his own sweet song. I'm just a kid again doing what I do again. Singing a song. And the red, red rabbit goes bop, bop, bop, bop. Okay, ready? Boy, the red, red rabbit goes bop, bop, bop, bop. I love all of them. Cheer up, you're going to spread the news.

[93:22]

La, la, [...] la. La, la, [...] la. I just can't get to the bottom of this. I just can't get to the bottom of this. I can't get to the bottom of this. I can't get to the bottom of this.

[93:48]

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