So during this week we've been, the topic of our discussions has been enlightening and liberating relationships and someone mentioned to me just a little while ago that there hasn't been much talk about love or sexuality and That was her perspective. I thought there'd been a lot of talk about love and sexuality, but she hadn't noticed it. So now, maybe we'll have now. I guess she said there hasn't been a lot of it. So now, for now, we're going to have a lot of it. One time I was giving a talk and somehow I got into the topic of love and I thought, geez, I don't know what it is.

[01:06]

And I felt like, oops. But then I thought, no, it's okay that I don't know what it is. Because really, who knows? Does anybody really know what it is? So I don't know what it is, but I still have something to say about it. There's a chair over there, Lauren. I guess I don't call sexual attraction love. You know, like, I think some people have this feeling sometimes, like they see somebody and they want that person's body in their arms and so on, or they want to kiss that person, or maybe they want to own that person, or various things like that. They want to get physically close to that person and that kind of thing. I don't myself call that love necessarily. Because I think that you can have that feeling for someone and then a few minutes later, I shouldn't say you, but some people have that feeling for someone and a few minutes later they kill the person.

[02:14]

Have you ever heard about that? Like they have the person and the person like they find out the person has another boyfriend or something. they kill them so i don't that kind of feeling i don't call love myself i call it but it is sexual attachment or sexual passion or sexual attraction it's an animal thing and uh i think with humans it's but it's uh in some ways uh very much not like love sometimes for me love is um The way I use love is more like to appreciate something the way it is now. To really appreciate it as it is and to not have some kind of manipulative agenda with it. To be something, it's being very attentive to something with no gaining agenda.

[03:29]

To be really attentive, interested, but not interested like leaning into it, not interested like seeing what you can get out of it, but interested in it the way it is right now before you get anything. And you wish the best for this being. You want this being to be happy. You want this being to be happy. And I think maybe there's a compassionate side to this, is that if this person is suffering, maybe you feel the suffering, you share the suffering, you have empathy for it, but you still appreciate them as they are. And you don't wish that they would not be the way they are.

[04:32]

Even though if they're suffering, you want them to be happy, you don't not wish them to be the way they are. Even if they're happy, you don't not wish them to be the way they are. Even if they're happy that you're unhappy, you don't not wish them to be the way they are. You might wish that they even be happier than they are, but you really appreciate the way they are right now, and the agenda to change them is not part of the love. Although there could be love and some agenda to change them, but that agenda to change them is not love. That's disrespect. And it is the basis of cruelty, one of the roots of cruelty. So I used the image a number of times, and with this retreat I also used the image of Stabat Mater, Mother Stood, referring to the Mother Mary who stood at the cross, crying and in sorrow, of course, but many mothers cry and are in sorrow when their children are suffering, but she stood.

[06:00]

For me, crying and sorrow could be part of love, but to me the main thing about love is you stand there and you appreciate the situation as it is. You don't like the situation, you appreciate it. You even say thank you. And people have trouble understanding how standing there in the face of a suffering being or standing there in the face of maybe a happy being who's doing something cruel, how that can be of help. I feel that it can be of help. I feel that Mary helped her son. That she showed her son what he needed to do. How he needed to be she had mercy for him and she showed him how to be the crucified one.

[07:04]

Namely, he had to stand there too. And a Jewish person said to me, you know, the imagery of Christianity doesn't necessarily compute for me. And I said, well, how about a concentration camp? How about being in a concentration camp with the people around you being treated... inconceivably horribly how about standing there and being with them and appreciating the way they are and witnessing what's happening of course if you could stop it you should stop of course if you could do something to interfere with the guards torture of them you should do it but Even if you do do that, even if you do do something, that you stand there and you witness it, you're present. This saves beings in their last hours in this life.

[08:08]

This shows them what they have to do in order to be free. You bear witness. Bearing witness is not hoping that things would be different. Of course you can hope that people will be happy who are miserable, but bearing witness is another activity. And wishing that people would be different is compassion. Not wishing they would be different. Wishing that they would be happy when they're suffering is compassion. But love is a little bit different. Love is more like right now. That's what I feel. And that does transform beings. I feel. So I have a story about that. if you could wait before we get on to the sex. It's not funny.

[09:09]

Sex is not funny. Okay, so this is one of our Buddhist horror stories. There was a a very gentle and loving young man. And his name actually was Harmlessness. His name was non-harm. His name was Ahimsaka. Ahimsa means harmlessness or non-violence. His name was non-violence, Ahimsaka. And he went to a school I forgot, I don't know exactly what they taught at the school. He was a Brahmin child and he went to a school and he was the teacher's favorite. The other students in the school were jealous of him and told the teacher that this boy had had adultery with his wife.

[10:11]

The teacher believed these jealous students and decided to punish, torture this adulterous person by giving him the task of collecting, I believe, 1,000 fingers from human beings. Told him to make a mala, make an adornment, a necklace, of 100 fingers from 100 people that he either killed or robbed. The guy kind of went crazy and started to do it. And he lived in the forest and he would just come out of the forest and, you know, attack people, rob people. And he actually did this. And he actually, according to the story, collected like 999 fingers.

[11:14]

And he was like, you know, he was like totally wild, insane madman. And he could like take on 40 people. So the whole countryside was afraid of him. And somehow the Buddha found out about this guy. The Buddha lived somewhere near him, found out about this guy and the Buddha somehow realized that this young man's mother was heading in his direction. So the Buddha, in order to prevent this kid from killing his mother, went to the place where he was. And as he was walking to that place, you know, farmers and other work people that saw him on the road would say, they didn't know he was the Buddha, but they said, you know, holy man, don't go that way because this man whose name was, you know, mala of fingers, Agulimala, is up that way.

[12:25]

And he's a terrible, terrible murderer don't go." And the Buddha listened in silence and went on. And three times that happened, that he listened to this warning in silence and went on. So then a Muguli Mala sees the Buddha coming and he thinks, that's really interesting, you know, forty people, you know, I can take and here comes one guy This is like... This must be destiny. Well, that's it then. So Buddha walks by and he goes up behind the Buddha and starts going after the Buddha. And the Buddha's walking at his usual pace. And the murderer starts running after the Buddha. But he's not getting any closer.

[13:29]

And he says... Wonderful, wonderful. Here I am. I can run down a running, I can run down a speeding elephant. I can run down a speeding horse. I can run down a speeding chariot. And yet I'm not catching up to this ascetic. And he calls out, he says, he says, stop, ascetic. Why can't I catch you? And the Buddha says, Because I've already stopped. That's why you can't catch me. You should stop. And the murderer says, Agulimala says, You say you stop, but you're walking.

[14:35]

And you're telling me I should stop. The Buddha kept walking and said he'd stopped. That's why the guy couldn't catch him. He said, why can't I catch you? He said, because I stopped. But he kept walking. He said, you say you stopped, but you continue to walk and you tell me I should stop. And I've already stopped. The Buddha said, I've stopped harming all beings. you should stop. And Agulimala woke up and said, from now on, I will not harm any beings. And asked the Buddha if he could become his student. Can you believe this story? So maybe it's like, Maybe they rounded off the number of people he killed. Maybe it wasn't really 999 or something like that. But this is a story where we're actually being told that a mass murderer, a serial killer, was converted by the Buddha, by the Buddha basically stopping.

[15:47]

That the Buddha's stopping and standing there. This guy couldn't catch up with him. This is what I call love. you know, to offer your life to a murderer to save him. And to not have him be any different, just tell him to stop and to show him how to do it. The story goes on that the people told the king... king of the area, Pasenadi, about Agulimala. So the king got an army together, 500 cavalry, and went looking for this guy to try to capture him or whatever. And they heard that the guy was in this park where the Buddha was.

[16:51]

So the king and his army went in. The king was a student of the Buddha and and went up to the Buddha and sat down respectfully and told the Buddha that he was scared to death because he was tracking this terrible murderer. And the Buddha said, relax, king, your great king. He said, if you heard that Agulimala had, you know, vowed to stop killing and was going to be a student of mine and never kill anymore and never be any harm to any being anymore, what would you do then? And the king said, well, I would be very happy and I would be very relaxed and I would make offerings to him. And the Buddhist said, well, it's happened. This mass murderer has been converted by me. Here is Agulimala. Agulimala, here's the king. King Agulimala. And the king went over to the mass murderer and paid his respects to him as a person who had stopped

[17:56]

And the king left. And Agulimala kept practicing with the Buddha. And the Buddha kept teaching Agulimala. And Agulimala had enlightenment. And then after he was enlightened, the Buddha said, then after he was enlightened, one day he was begging. And he saw a woman giving birth to a child. And this child was deformed. Deformed. And he felt very bad. He wanted to help this mother and this child. And he went back to the Buddha and he said, I saw this woman when I was begging and she gave birth to this deformed child. What can I do to help? And the Buddha said, go to the woman and tell her, since I was born, as far as I can recall, I have never harmed any living being. based on this truth, may you and your child have good health.

[19:07]

And Agulima said, well, how could I say that? That would be a lie. And Buddha said, well then, why don't you go to her and say, since I was born into the noble way, I have not harmed any living being. Based on this truth, may you and your child be healthy. And Agulimala said, that I can do, because that is true. And he went to the woman and he said this, since I was born in the noble way, I have not harmed any living being. Based on this truth, may you and your child be healthy. And the child and the mother were healthy. Then later, Agulimala went to town one day And some people saw him without the Buddha right nearby explaining to them what had happened to this former murderer. And they threw mud at him.

[20:10]

They threw garbage at him. They threw broken pots at him. So he was severely injured. He went back to the Buddha, all bloody and filthy, and said what happened. And the Buddha said, this is what happens to you now. since you have entered the way and become a saint, this is what happens to you. If you had not entered the way, you would have been tortured hundreds of thousands of years for what you have done. Karma comes to fruition, but when you enter the way, it's possible that the fruition all happens in this life. and is much less than if you don't practice. This is the story of a mass murder that was converted to a harmless being by the Buddha not moving.

[21:16]

So this is the miracle of love. This is the miracle that love can realize and a person can understand interdependence When you understand interdependence, you stop harming beings. That's what the Buddha did. The Buddha understood interdependence and he stopped harming beings. And not only that, but he could then show even murderers, he could show murderers what they needed to do. Okay? Okay? This is an enlightening relationship between Buddha and Agulimala. You're with someone. The Buddha was recognizing Agulimala.

[22:22]

He saw Agulimala and he expressed himself to Agulimala. Agulimala expressed himself to Buddha and Agulimala saw Buddha. He really saw Buddha and he was amazed at what he saw. The Buddha showed him, gave him something to see. They really recognized each other. The Buddha saw that this person could be converted by this means. The Buddha saw the potential that this murderer could become an enlightened being. And he showed it to him. So this morning I told a different story about the way a Buddha taught a different disciple, quite different teaching. This is the way he teaches a murderer. The Buddha teaches each person differently, but basically the Buddha does the same thing with each person. The Buddha shows himself. The Buddha looks at the disciple. The disciple shows himself. The Buddha looks at the disciple. By mutually recognizing each other, the Dharma is passed and the people wake up. So we can look at different examples, but basically it's all the same pattern of mutual expression, mutual recognition.

[23:30]

Any comments on that so far? Pardon? I never heard that part of the story, by telling him to go out and collect these fingers. Oh, you didn't know about that part? No, I never heard that part, and I was just wondering why he followed it to begin with. Well, can you imagine, here you are, you're a student, and you're the teacher's pet, right? And suddenly your teacher comes to you and tells you, well... You know, you're my best student, and now just, I want to, you know, I've got to give you a test now to see if you really understand. This is going to be tough, but, you know, I want to see if you can really understand.

[24:39]

I'm going to give you a really hard assignment. Are you up for it? What did you say? Can you say, what is it? Can you say, what did I say? You're not my student. See you later. Any other students here that want a test? He wasn't like you. He was really devoted. In the next life, you can be devoted to me. But he didn't say, what is it? He said, I want to do it. And the teacher said, no, no, it's too hard for you. You couldn't do it. Your devotion is strong enough. Oh, yes, it is. No, no, this is too... No, you couldn't. Yes, I can. He said, okay, here's what it is. And when he heard the instruction from his teacher, he basically went nuts. Just went crazy. Anyway, the teacher was very skillful at manipulating him so that when he finally told him, he just broke and he went crazy and did this.

[25:47]

And the idea was he would bring this mala back to his teacher then and be accepted as the prime student, as the successor. So some powerful people can break our mind, you know, even though we have the ability to be a Buddha. We can be broken, tricked, hurt, killed spiritually. Killed spiritually. So, didn't completely kill him, the Buddha saved him, but that's why. The sutra doesn't say this part. I don't know where the source of the rest of the story is, but it's in the footnotes of the scripture, and I've heard it other places too. The teacher was very, very... Well, you know, I think maybe the teacher was like a shaman or something, you know. Okay? Anything else? Yes? Yes. Yes.

[26:54]

I can't quite hear you. The last part. Is that not appreciating them as they are? Is that not making them feel this love? Well, it's almost like you have to do two things at once. Take another example, okay? You can see someone who's, well, it's kind of a related example. It happens a lot in practice centers. Students are not following the discipline. You know, they're lazy in their practice. The teacher sees that the student is lazy in their practice and suffering because of that. And the teacher understands that if they would work at their discipline, they'd be happy.

[28:07]

So the teacher wants them to, the teacher really wants them, would like to tell them how good it would be to follow the discipline and be happy. And maybe does. But the teacher also has to appreciate them in their present state of resistance. in which they're suffering and rebelling against the very discipline which they want to follow. The teacher somehow has to say, this is beautiful. I often give the example of, you know, a milder example, really, of teaching my daughter to ride the bicycle. You ever heard that one? You know? Once upon a time there was a father who wanted to teach his daughter to ride a bicycle because he heard that that's a wonderful thing for a father to help a daughter do. And he wanted to have that experience of helping his daughter ride a bicycle, learn to ride a bicycle.

[29:09]

So when she was a little girl he asked her if she would like to ride a bicycle and she said no. And then he asked her again a few years later and she said, no thank you. And then he bought her a bicycle and she said, no thank you. But he didn't hate his daughter for being the way she was. And then one day she said, Father, would you like to teach me to ride a bicycle? And he said, yes. She said, let's go. So they borrowed a bicycle, the right size for her. They went out to the park. He held the seat. He held the handlebars. He ran alongside of her. And when she was somewhat balancing on her own, he let go of the handlebars and let her steer. And then when she was balancing even more, she said, let go, Dad.

[30:13]

And he let go, and she drove off. And it was just as wonderful as he always thought it would be. And she was happy, and he was happy, and all the young women in the park were happy to see it. It was a wonderful moment. But the father did not wish, when the daughter did not want to learn to ride the bicycle, he did not wish that she was not the way she was. He accepted that she did not want to do it. Even though he still wanted her to learn that someday, and he wanted to be there when she learned. And after she learned, he didn't love her more, or think she was better. When you see how a person really is, you love them. Because all beings are inconceivably beautiful. All beings are... the creation of the universe at that spot. You see that, you love that. You don't think they can be improved. And yet if they're miserable, you'd like them to be happy.

[31:15]

But if you think that they could be improved, that hurts them and teaches them ignorance. What you teach him is, you're perfect as you are, and I want you to be even more happy than you are now, if you're suffering. Now, if you're as happy as you can get, I want you to just be like you are. There's no need for you to be any happier. So somehow we can do both. We can see that this is a beautiful being, unimprovable being. They'll never be more beautiful than they are, and at the same time they're suffering. That's what the Buddha saw when the Buddha was in life. The Buddha was very happy to see that all beings were beautiful. All beings were lovely. All beings were interdependent. All beings were the Buddha nature. All beings had what it takes to be a Buddha. That's what the Buddha saw. He didn't want them to improve, but he saw that they didn't understand that. So he wanted to teach them so they could see what he could see. But he never lost sight of the fact that the beings he was devoted to were

[32:22]

were already what they needed to be, they just didn't see it. So he hoped that they would get Buddha's wisdom so they could see, but at the same time, appreciate the way they are now. So when we try to help people, sometimes we lose track of the way they are, and then we hurt them. Many people do that. They appreciate the person, but not enough. They slip into trying to get them to improve, and then that shows the person exactly what the person's problem is back at them again. rather than showing them the way to freedom, the way to drop that. But we have a hard time doing those at the same time, appreciating the way they are now and also understanding how happy they would be if they could see, or if they could ride a bicycle, or whatever it is, you know. And some people will never learn that thing in the near future. Some people will never realize the thing we hope for them, like some people have sicknesses, and they will never become free of that sickness.

[33:29]

But from now on, until they are free, which may not be seen in this lifetime, we will love them as they are. No matter what they become, they'll always have that. When they see that, that will help them when the time comes, they'll be able to use that to do their thing. The same applies, I know this lady who, she works with prisoners in San Quentin and other prisons, and she also teaches poetry to children in what they call high-risk schools, where there's lots of drugs and crime. She knows a lot of these kids, and she says to these kids, you know, it looks to me like you're on your way to prison. And some of the kids say, you know, you're right. That's where I'm going. They can see that's where they're going. They know that that's the trajectory they're on. And they say, and I can't stop.

[34:30]

There's no way I can stop. Some of the kids can say that to her. And she can say, you know, I really feel terrible that's where you're going. But I also see there's nothing I can do. But she goes to school with those kids and she teaches them poetry and she loves them. And her boyfriend actually is in prison. And she said to her boyfriend, when you were on your way to prison, did you know you were on the way to prison? He said, yes. Was there anything you could do to stop yourself? I couldn't see anything. Could anyone have stopped you? No. Was there any help? He said, yes, what helped was that some people loved me as I was going to prison. Now I can use that to get myself out of prison. Now I can use that to make a new life. But anybody who tried to stop me was just fools. No one could stop this. There's certain things that can't be stopped. But you can be loved. And then when the time is over and the thing has happened, you've seen love.

[35:34]

And now you have a chance to turn your life around with that vision. So we can love people, but we can't necessarily control the situation. Sometimes with the Buddha, he would come up to somebody and love them, and in a second they would turn around. He was so, his face was so, he could see so clearly that he knew just exactly the thing that would turn the person. For us, who have less enlightenment and less skill, we can still act like the Buddha and still be there like the Buddha, even though we might not be able to do that magical thing that will snap them out of it. We can still show them love so that when the time comes they can snap out of it. Incredible love. Incredible love. Which you can have when you see how beautiful a person is, you know? Yes. Yes. Yes?

[36:50]

What do you do? Well, I don't know. You might go up to him and say, excuse me, would you like me to help you? And they say, yes. They say, well, I see you doing your job in such a way that I think you're heading for trouble. And again, you might not be able to stop them from the trajectory they're on, but you can hold their hand as they walk into hell. You can hold their hand as they walk into big trouble. That helps them. Now maybe that'll turn them around, too. That would be nice, that they don't have to get in big trouble. But sometimes the thing the person really wants to see more than what they want to learn more than, if I keep walking this way, will I get in big trouble? What they want to learn more is, does somebody love me enough to walk with me and not manipulate the situation?

[37:54]

That's a more important lesson to learn. If you have the love, then you can learn the second lesson, namely, how does karma work? On the other hand, if you learn how karma works, then you can learn the first lesson, because when you see how karma works, your eyes open to love. So you can go either way, but some people aren't ready to study karma. They're too strung out to pay attention to what they're doing, but sometimes they can see love. Like I've told that story a number of times of the grand dragon of the Ku Klux Klan, who in the process of persecuting a Jewish family in his hometown, the Jewish family, the cantor and his wife, came over to this Jew-hating Klan member and they bestowed such love upon him that he could not stand up against it.

[39:01]

He collapsed. He couldn't keep hating. The love overwhelmed him. They couldn't get him to turn around and look at his karma. He was not ready for that. He had to be converted by love first. And usually, that's the first thing that breaks through a person, is generosity and love. Once you break through that, then you can get him to study Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path and pay attention to what they're doing and see how their karma... is causing them trouble but to crack the shell of hate or to crack the shell of confusion and drug addiction or whatever a great act of sort of inconceivable generosity sometimes like shakes them out of it like somebody being generous that they just can't believe it and then when they can't believe it and try to reject it they give more generosity until finally they realize it's

[40:01]

it's hopelessly true that love is stronger than hate. So maybe you can love these people so much that they'll get the message that somebody cares about them. They may still screw up their job, but at least they know somebody cares about them. That you can do, maybe. Maybe. Well, I'm sorry, but no sex today. There's not time to get into it, so tomorrow I'll do it. If that's true, then ask the question. If that's true? I mean, if you're really not... I didn't know whether you were joking or whether you were... No, I think there's just about 15 minutes left. I think we should give a whole session to it. Don't you think so? Are there several sessions?

[41:05]

May I? Oh, sure, yeah. I think, I'm not sure, but I think you referred in the beginning of your talk this afternoon to the other side of the kind of love you've had in the past. Manipulation as the root of cruelty. Well, just that you look at a being and you don't respect them, so you think you're going to manipulate them. It's disrespectful. Well, and so cruel, yeah. So you will actually, some people will like, they will manipulate people to the point that a lot of other people will feel that's very cruel. They will punish people. I'm just, you know, I was just reading a book now, a horror story about the Japanese attitude during the Second World War. They said that they were out to help the Chinese They were trying to help the Chinese understand Buddhism better.

[42:08]

That's what some of them said. Japan was a divine country. They were going to save Asia from the Western powers abusing them. And China was not able to protect itself, so the Japanese were going to teach China the true way of Buddhism. How did they do that? Have you ever heard of some of the ways they did that? Some of the ways they tried to save the Chinese? By killing millions and millions and millions of Chinese. You know, millions and millions of Chinese children. This is how they manipulated the Chinese into being better people. That's what it can go to. And the Nazis were trying to improve the world situation by making it real spiffy with only one kind of person in it.

[43:12]

You know? This variety is too messy, you know, to have Jews and gypsies and Catholics and, I don't know, communists. Let's get all nice, all one kind of person, you know? It was like their concept, their insane idea of beauty as monolithic simplicity led them to do this big favor to the world of eliminating all variety. It can get to that. First is respect life as it is. Not, it's pretty good, but I can fix it and make it a little bit better. That can go to murder. It's disrespectful, and that disrespectful can go to the extreme of murdering, killing the life. But you know, if you even look at your children and manipulate them, you can kill their spirits.

[44:19]

You can kill their fragile beauty, you know, especially their beauty you can kill by being impatient with it and assuming that they understand that they're beautiful when they don't. Now, if people understand they're beautiful, you can give them some criticism. So there's stories in Zen of these monks who understood their beauty. They understood that they were independently co-arisen reality. They could see beauty and they felt that they were beauty. Those monks got pushed a little bit by their teacher. But they had confidence and their teachers were just bringing them to perfection. They weren't really manipulating them. They were interacting to see if they could play. And they could, in some of the stories. And some Zen teachers made mistakes and tried to play with people that weren't ready and made mistakes and hurt people, hurt their monks.

[45:24]

There are examples of that. It's very hard not to manipulate beings, especially when you really have a strong connection with them, not love, but strong connection. Like when they're your genetic offspring, you really want things to go a certain way. And they do too. And the way they want it to go is exactly the way that would most bother you. Because they want to see if you love them. They've already been born, you know. When it comes to their children, they'll be interested in getting their way with their children, maybe, unless you teach them otherwise. But when it comes to their parents, what they want to know is they know, okay, I got the picture. I'm your offspring. Now I want to find out if you love me. Yeah, I know I'm your offspring. I know you're my parents. But do you love me? Well, of course we love me. Well, will you love me if I do this?

[46:25]

Huh? Will you love me if I do this? I thought so. I didn't think you'd love that. At that point, the parent's got to recover. Do you understand? Can you hear him? Bert, would you please speak up? This is called reciprocity. These people are listening to you, Bert. Give them a break. Come on. Come on. Get it over there. Raise your hands if you can't hear him, okay? A little reciprocity. So you gave an example of one example of an unambiguous relationship being one where they would not accept each other.

[47:26]

Right. So not wondering about love, where you say love is to accept the other person just as they are. Accept and appreciate. And so what if you can respect? What if it's unequal? What if you cannot accept? What if you accept me and appreciate me like I am, but I don't appreciate you like you are? Is that what you mean? Huh? That's one example? Okay. What about that? That's not reciprocal, right? And that often happens. So I would recommend that you continue to practice loving. If you respect me, you appreciate me the way I am, you say thank you for me, you really see beauty in me, you've got the love thing down pretty well. Keep it up. Try anyway. Just stand there while I go through my thing.

[48:28]

But if I don't, then this is not an enlightening relationship. There's love, but it's not enlightening because it's not reciprocal. When the love is reciprocal, then it's enlightening. Reciprocal attitude plus acting it out. So, first of all, we respect each other, we appreciate each other, we're not manipulating each other, and on top of that, we start letting each other know what's going on. So then we start expressing ourselves, too. So I say, guess what, Bert, I appreciate you. And you sit there, and you appreciate me, right? But you don't say anything. And I say, Bert, what's happening over there? And if you don't talk, you say, Bert, Bert, what's happening? How are you? I love you too. Do you know that?

[49:31]

What? Looks like you're not sure. Is that right? Hmm? Hmm? Not quite enlightening yet, Bert. So, there can be love in one direction. It's unbalanced. And the direction where the love is, that direction, if you just put up with that, it becomes codependent. and can get unhealthy. You have to sort of like gently, lovingly keep saying, well, can I teach you how to ride a bicycle? Or can, you know, could I teach you how to tell me what's going on with you? Could I talk to you about how come you don't appreciate me like I am? Can I talk to you about this in a way that doesn't make me sort of make, so you don't feel put down by me being able to love you and you not being able to love me? You don't just leave it sit there.

[50:38]

You don't do that person's part of the relationship. You keep telling them you need them to do this thing. Because you do. If you love somebody, you need them to grow up and do their part. But you do it patiently, too. Because you actually appreciate them the way they are. So you're not in a big hurry for them. It's an urgent matter, but you're not rushing them. Because part of what they're doing is to see if you're patient. Because patience is part of love. So they may resist coming along with the program partly because they want to really make sure you love before they're going to try it. Because they don't want to try it if they're not going to be met because maybe they tried it once and they weren't met and it was very discouraging. So you love them that way and they're not doing it back but you start working on them. But it's not like to manipulate them, but to help them wake up.

[51:41]

So Buddha's not manipulating us, but Buddha really does want us to, you know, to open our eyes and see the Buddha's truth. Does that make sense? Is it kind of hard work? Yeah. Are Buddhas willing to work hard? Yeah. That hard work will be Yeah, I really appreciate and I see what you're saying about allowing people freedom to have their problems or their angst or whatever, not trying to fix them. I see that in my workplace in between, like you say, student and teacher, you described the teacher who worked with the kids who were in trouble. how she can't fix them, she can't solve the problem. And I appreciate when people don't try to fix me, you know, they love me anyway. But I feel like that's only like a 10% relationship, and that's only a certain type of relationship.

[52:51]

I feel like when I think about relationships, a real relationship, and when you get near with somebody, it means saying to them and experiencing with them I can't love you unless you do this. I want to love you, and I do love you so much. I can't stand at you when you do this, and I can't be me if you keep doing this. And although I will love you forever, I have to leave you, and I have to have you out of my life if you can't stop this. I can't love you for this. And in reverse, sometimes I need people who love me to say, I'm not willing to keep loving you if you don't stop this because it's killing you. You know? Yeah, I got it. So, I think that kind of goes back to what you talked about the first day. But how does that tie into what we're saying today? Well, you just said it. Except you got a little bit mixed up there.

[53:53]

You said, I love you forever, but I can't love you forever. Unless, right. Instead of saying, you can say, I love you forever, including now, okay? But if you keep doing this, it's bye-bye. I'm out of here if you do that. But I won't stop loving you, no matter what. But I won't be around anymore, because I'm not going to have my presence be like a support for you to do this unenforcing activity. But I'm not going to stop loving you. When I got married, my wife said, there's a rule. The rule is no hitting. No hitting. She meant me not hitting her. I didn't say, well, also, you can't hit me. No, no hitting her. That was the rule. She said, if you ever hit me, I'm gone.

[54:56]

I'll love you always, but I'm gone. Is that love? It ends? It doesn't end. She said it won't end. What did she say? It won't end. Don't worry about my love. It's not going to end. It is unconditional. It's my body that's going to take a walk. My sister loves my mother so much. I mean, it's like world class. I mean, it's just incredible how much my sister loves my mother. But my mother is sometimes not very nice to my sister. So my sister took a walk a while, about six months ago, my sister took a walk And just recently, on my recent trip to Minneapolis, my sister came back to visit my mother when I was there. But my sister left because my mother was mean to my sister. My sister... I saw my sister helping my mother, and the look on her face, I mean, the look of love and devotion and adoration was just like... I was just so proud to be near her.

[56:11]

But my sister did the right thing. Because my mother doesn't understand really what she was doing before my sister was gone for six months. Then she called me and she said, well, Sulu's still not here. You know, I don't know what it is. I asked her what it is and she said, no problem. But my mother figured it out. And there's various reasons why my mother is that way. In some ways her practice isn't so good. She's got a lot of suffering like a lot of other people, but she doesn't face it. So a lot of stuff comes out, sort of sneaks around the edge unconsciously. And my sister is somebody who you would think, now this person, no matter what I do, they'll never go away. So you can just let it out. Well, my sister finally did the right thing. She said, now she's back and my mother understands now that she has to be careful. But you don't stop loving the person, you just leave.

[57:15]

You just say, I'm not going to be here while you do that. And I'm not going to pretend like it's all right. It's not. But they don't stop loving you. Now my wife just said hitting, but of course if I did something like, I don't know what, sold drugs to kids, she would leave too. But she wouldn't stop loving me. It's just not under your power. Once you love somebody like that, you just don't stop. But you should leave them. If you love them, you should leave them if they're doing something like that. You shouldn't be there to support them by your presence because your presence kind of says, well, we don't like it, but really it's okay because, see, I'm still here. What they're really saying is, leave me. Let me see the consequences of my action. Help me by showing me that there are big time consequences for me doing this thing. If you love me, leave me." So you keep loving forever and you do it by leaving.

[58:18]

Sometimes parents have to force their kids out the door as an act of love. Okay? That's what I think. Yes? Is love enough? Well, like I said with birth, it's not enough. I mean, it's the basis, but you have to work it. You have to say, okay, you know, hello, I need you to answer my question. I'm not trying to manipulate you, I'm just telling you, I want you to know that I love you and I need you to love me back. What if there is a love? What if there what? No, like I said, even if Bert and I both love each other, then we have to start telling each other. Again, like my wife sometimes would say, do you love me?

[59:22]

And I would say, well, isn't it clear to you? And it is clear to her, but still she likes me to say yes. You know, what's, you know, it's a game, you know. It's this interaction. It's not just like love, love. It's love, love, and expressing it, recognizing it, expressing it, recognizing it, expressing it, recognizing it, back and forth, back and forth, until the interdependence of love starts to be dramatized. When you love someone, you have an inkling of interdependence. That's why you love it. Love is the main proof of interdependence. Have you noticed, have you seen some people love some people that You're kind of amazed that they love him. Have you seen that? Have you seen, like, somebody love somebody who's really, really stinky and filthy, you know, who's, like, reeks of... and is cruel and obnoxious?

[60:26]

Have you seen somebody love this person? You haven't? I have. It is impressive. Basically... Basically, I think women are a little bit better at it than men. From my point of view, I'm just amazed at some of the people that women love. I thought, wow, that is really far out. It's incredible what some of the people you guys love. I'm in awe of your ability to do that. But the reason why it's possible is because of interdependence. It's because you sense the interdependence. But that's not enough. You have to act it out. And the more you act it out, the more thoroughly the interdependence is realized. So love isn't enough. But it's the root. It's the root. of the drama of realizing interdependence in the world. And if you don't feel love for all beings, then study interdependence and you will.

[61:36]

Once you see interdependence, then you'll love. So you can come at it through studying the teaching of how things happen, or if you already love someone, you enact that love. Come either way. And being upright and balanced and non-manipulative opens your eyes to interdependence. But another thing that opens your eyes to interdependence is to act like you would act if you did understand interdependence. Namely, be devoted to all beings. Then that will also realize, help you understand interdependence. That will also make an enlightening relationship. But when you're devoted to other beings, You don't just give, give, give. You give and then you say, I want something from you. I didn't give to get it, but now that I've given, I'm so happy. I want you to be happy too. So please give to me and find out how fun it is. You'll love it. I can see you're almost convinced.

[62:43]

Read. Read. How do you decide when it's appropriate to stand in the face of affliction and when it's appropriate to leave? Okay. Hamlet asked that question. Hamlet asked that question. Do you remember? Hamlet. To be or not to be. That is the question. Whether to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to stand up against them and bear arms and fight back. Which is it? He was being philosophical. Then what did he do? He picked up his slings and arrows and he killed.

[63:43]

Then what did he do? He woke up. But at the time he woke up, he was experiencing the results of the time when he fought back. So when he woke up, he died shortly after he woke up. And when he woke up, he realized being ready is all. In other words, really standing upright and being ready for whatever, that's the answer to his question. It's not to be or not to be. It's not to suffer and give in or fight back. It's to stand upright and be ready. Be ready, be ready. How do you decide when to do that? It's always the right thing to do. And when you're ready, you respond appropriately, which is sometimes you walk out of the room. ... But you don't fight back.

[64:55]

And you don't give in. Neither be or not to be. The middle way. The middle way is revealed to you when you stop, when you're just ready there. And that's the great tragedy of Hamlet is he understood this beautiful being understood, but then because of his murderous activity, he was taken away from us. Fortunately, the Buddha didn't kill anybody during his early career when he was asking the same question. So he got to teach for many years after he saw the point. So you always stand in the face, you always stand up in the face of affliction and harassment. And from that standing up sometimes you walk up and you take the weapon out of somebody's hand. But it's coming from that standing upright. It's not coming from impatience and anger.

[65:58]

It's not a manipulation. It's an expression of dependent core rising. This is no longer your hand that's doing this thing. It's the hand of all beings. It's not karma. It's enlightened activity. And it is beneficial. It is harmless. It is non-violent. It is detachment. It has those criteria if it's Buddhism. And part of the horror of our Zen history is that some Zen teachers supported the killing that went on in China. They said, yeah, Japan's doing a favor to kill all those Chinese. Just the Buddhism, you know, Buddhism had its crusade too. Just like the Christians went and killed all those Muslims, the Japanese Buddhists, supposed so-called Buddhists, those were so-called Christians, I think, not real Christians.

[67:05]

That was institutional Christianity. in institutional Buddhism, not Buddhists, but institutional Buddhism, sent a huge army over to China on a religious crusade and killed more people than probably the crusades did. So Buddhism is, I think we have to make that clear, Buddhism really is nonviolence. And if it's enlightened activity, it doesn't harm people. It doesn't harm anything. It's just, you know, It's not harming. It's not running away. It's beneficial action. So you don't decide. You always do the same practice of being present, being unprejudiced, and that presence will enact your arms and legs and mouth appropriately. That's what I say. That's just me. It's not Buddhism.

[68:05]

It's just my idea about it. But I really think that's so. I mean, that's my faith. I think it's time to stop, really. I don't want to keep you too late.

[68:29]

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