Hi. I would like to tell you that I wasn't scheduled to give the talk today, so I'm sorry if some of you are expecting somebody else. And I would like to... talk about love, or as we say in Zen, the self-fulfilling awareness. The awareness that fulfills the self. So I guess I'm saying that the way I'm using the word love is that love is an awareness that fulfills yourself or fulfills your sense of self.

[01:41]

I got a fortune cookie that said, you will be successful in love. That's why I'm talking about it today. And I heard that fortune in two ways. One way is, in your enterprise or in your life of love, you will be successful. The other way to read it is, or the other way I heard it is, is that it's in love that you will be successful. It didn't say I wouldn't be successful in any of the other things, but rather that's maybe where I should look for my success. when I think of it in terms of, oh, in your love life you will be successful, that's not like, oh, that's nice.

[03:10]

But when I hear it that in love you will be successful, I feel freed. Because I guess it's more like, well, in the work of love you'll be successful, so, you know, good luck. And... You've got a good chance here." And maybe, who knows what that will be, but when it says, in love you will be successful, or it's in love that you will be successful, then I feel like I don't need anything. Then all I need is to see what's happening and respond to circumstances. That's some feeling I have about that. And so last time I talked here I also said that in some ways we sometimes say that the practice of the way is through totally engaging yourself, and totally engaging yourself

[04:28]

So what's that? I'd like to go into that more deeply. How is it to totally engage yourself? What is total expression of yourself? And how does that... What's good about that? So sometimes in order to talk about what's good about something, if I talk about what's bad about something else, that sometimes helps. And so I've said many times, repeated the insight of many people that our basic problem is that we think we're separate from other creatures, other living creatures. That's our basic problem.

[05:33]

And somebody just gave me a quote yesterday or something like that of Albert Einstein. And he says, we experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest. It's a kind of optical delusion of our consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for those nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." So this is just the word of Buddha.

[06:46]

We have an expression in Buddhism called Pratyeka Buddha, which means a Buddha that's a person who is enlightened by conditions, who is not actually a member of the Buddhist community, but who, by studying physics or music or dance or whatever, somehow wakes up. And I think Albert Einstein's an example of someone who woke up to Buddha's truth, to the truth of awakening, without actually joining the Buddhist community. Actually, I think he joined the Jewish communities, where his community's in. But his insight, you can see, is just what I've been talking about all year. The fundamental delusion is that we're separate, and that's the source of our misery and the source of our inappropriate behavior, because we're acting on the basis of a misunderstanding of what's going on.

[07:59]

So he said, free ourselves from this prison of separateness by widening our sphere, our circle of compassion. So one way to widen it is just basic meditation on loving-kindness. wishing that every living creature would be happy and at peace and cool. And cool in their passion, if that's what's happening. Wishing all beings would sort of be able to ride

[09:14]

the rough waves of change with real skill and attentiveness and alertness and understanding. And in this practice of wishing the best for everybody, it's said that first you start with yourself. You wish this for yourself. You wish that you could actually be present with what's happening. May I be completely present with what's happening. May I be at peace right now. May I be happy. I heard an African saying that, you know, watch out if a naked person comes and offers you a shirt.

[10:25]

Somebody comes to be friendly to you or to love you who doesn't love themselves. What's that about? What would the agenda be of someone who doesn't wear, who's naked, who's giving you a shirt? When I first came to Zen Center, I had come from a different lifestyle. And so I gave away a lot of my clothes, put them in the Goodwill. And then one of my friends went down and got some of my suits and sport coats and put them on. And they looked so good on them that I wanted to take them back. In the process of totally engaging with ourself, it means to admit what you're up to, but it sometimes entails that we think in ways that we're unfamiliar with, and we use our bodies

[12:19]

in ways that we're not used to. That's part of what it means to totally engage yourself. Totally engaging yourself means all the things you now do, yes, when you're doing them you totally do them and you hope while you're doing them that you can really be present and peaceful. But it also means that when you hear certain things you realize that this is really an opportunity to be yourself when you hear certain things. Now here's an example, okay? I'm going to tell you something about me. This is an example of expressing myself. I'm a little concerned that you won't like me for the way I am.

[13:24]

But I'm going to tell you just as an example of expressing myself so that you also might be able to see that, well, if I survive, that you also could express yourself, and that in complete expression you'll find your life. I eat salmon. And right in front of me, one person is going like this. And another person right next to her is going like this.

[14:31]

For those of you who are listening to the tape, one person is shaking their head, no. and the other person's nodding her head, yes. I don't know what those mean, though. I'd have to ask them, I'd have to probe them a little bit to find out what they meant by this shaking and nodding of the head. But when I propose, I experience that when I express myself, I get some people saying, no. and some people saying yes. Sometimes everybody's saying no, sometimes everybody's saying yes. Well, I don't know about that, but anyway, I get these responses and I feel that the responses are about me because I express myself. Now, if I don't express myself, I also get no and yes, but I don't know who that's about. Because I didn't express myself.

[15:39]

I wonder who they're... I was lying, so, you know. Anyway, I have been eating salmon. And at this point, to tell you the truth, I have not decided to stop. Somebody else? No, another person's shaking head no. That just happens to be where I'm at. And that's just a sample of things which I have done, probably will continue to do, Not only do I eat salmon, but I'll tell you something more about salmon.

[16:41]

We live right in this valley here, and at the base of this valley, a creek that comes out of the Mount Tamapayas watershed, a creek called Redwood Creek, runs by the tip of Green Gulch into the ocean. And people at Green Gulch and all around here are concerned with the healthiness of that creek. And I heard that at some point something about salmon in the creek, that there were salmon or there weren't salmon. Some people wanted there to be salmon. And I heard about that, and I thought, hmm. Basically, oh. I've included, I've adopted the policy of it's been nice for that stream to be clean and healthy. But it wasn't a big concern to me whether there was salmon in the creek or not.

[17:45]

I mean, there's a lot of nice creeks in the world. There's a lot of nice rivers in the world that are fairly clean that don't have salmon. So what's the big deal about whether there's salmon or not? So part of my mind said, what's the big deal? I didn't get too excited about whether there was salmon in the creek or not. For years, I heard about this. And then recently, I was down at Muir Woods listening to one of the park rangers. And she said something about salmon are an indicator species. So there's a whole bunch of species in the creek and around the creek. And some of them, particularly salmon, is an indicator species. It indicates that a whole bunch of things are happening. It doesn't just mean that the salmon are in the creek. It means that all kinds of other things are happening.

[18:49]

It means the water's flowing in certain ways. It means that there's gravel in the creek. It means that the creek has several healthy characteristics, because the creek can be quite healthy, but not healthy enough for salmon. It can have a lot going for it, and other kinds of fish can live in it, but it has to have a whole bunch of positive, healthy signs for the salmon to live in there. So when you have salmon in the creek, you know that the watershed is flowing well, that people are, you know... not messing with it too much. And if there's a lot of salmon, you know that the stream is really healthy. And if the stream is healthy, you kind of have a good indication that the hills are healthy. In other words, the plants and the hills are healthy. And if the plants and the hills are healthy, then probably the animals are healthy too. And if the animals and the plants are healthy and the salmon are there and the water's clean, well, maybe the people at Green Gulch are healthy too.

[19:56]

So gradually I started to understand that it wasn't kind of like, so what, whether there's salmon or not. But because salmon have been living in that creek for quite a long time, and at certain points in the last few decades I guess there hardly were any salmon, and now there are salmon again, it's a sign that we human beings are starting to catch on to how to take care of this Mount Tamalpais watershed. So salmon aren't just salmon. And to totally exert yourself has something to do with understanding what salmon are and what watersheds are and what trees are. and also which trees are native and which aren't, and so on.

[21:04]

My mind working that way was a way it never worked before. I never before realized that the salmon of the healthy watershed is not the salmon of my mind that I had before. There's another salmon who compared to my old salmon is not a salmon, or my old salmon is not a salmon compared to this new salmon. And this kind of study is what we call totally engaging the self, yourself. This is called total expression. Because, you see, it also involved my being aware of my own idea about what salmons are and watching my idea change and also telling you that I had a narrow understanding of salmon. That's part of my expression. And when I tell you of my narrow understanding of salmon, it's another example etched into my heart that my mind is limited.

[22:06]

It reminds me again that I have these limited ideas. And every time I had noticed my limited idea and watch it transcend itself. I'm released, but also it's another example to remind me how narrow I was before, and probably I still am. So in one sense, I'm ashamed of how narrow I have been in my life. In another sense, admission of how narrow I've been is the way of being thoroughly liberated from how narrow I've been. Now here's an example I didn't plan to say, but it just popped up. This is a really bad one. One of my friends often says, hey, man, I'm Italian.

[23:12]

So I got to admit, when I was a kid, you know what I thought Italians were? I thought Italians were, you know, well, when I thought of Italians, what I thought of was gangsters. I forgot about the Renaissance. I just thought of, you know, kind of tough guys who pushed their wives around or their girlfriends around. And because I had this take on them, I was amazed, you know, as I grew up to see that, well, you know, like they could make good clothes. And I also thought, hey, Italian cooking, what is it? Spaghetti. How boring.

[24:16]

And I recently found out, as an example of the Renaissance, that in the 15th century, the French people did not have much of a cuisine. And then Catherine de' Medici married Henri the something or other and brought her Italian cooks with her. And these Italian cooks, you know, came and taught the French people with the French aristocracy how to cook. And now, you know, when I look at Italian cooking, I think, yeah, it's just pasta, right? But... Just pasta is like just rice in Chinese culture. All the Chinese have is rice. Basically, food, the meal in China is called rice. In other words, the cooking is based, has a base, a ground. It comes from rice, and rice comes from the earth.

[25:26]

It's very basic. And then you put these other things on top of it, a few vegetables and other things, and you have Chinese cooking. And so, yes, Italian cooking is just spaghetti, or is just pasta. In other words, it has this base. But in some ways, now looking at it, I see it's extremely subtle. The infinite varieties of the ways you can make pasta. When I was... I gave a talk at a Zen center in San Francisco, which was set up primarily as a kind of a place for gay people to sit and practice meditation. And I gave a talk there, and I said to them one time, when I was there, I said, but to tell you the truth, you know, I don't understand why you people have a separate Zen center. And then...

[26:27]

They said some stuff, you know, and I didn't get it. And then later, one of them came over to Zen Center and told me, he said, you know, he said to me, if you were in a place, if you went to a Zen Center and it was 95% gay, wouldn't you feel uncomfortable? And I said, well, no. And still, you know, the point is that when a person from a minority on some agenda goes into a situation where this person feels in the... When a person in the majority, like when a heterosexual in a heterosexual culture goes in a situation mostly with... homosexuals, they grew up feeling in the minority so they can spend some time in being in the minority. Am I saying it right? They grew up in the majority so they can spend some time being in a minority and doesn't bother them because their basic background is, hey, I'm in the majority.

[27:35]

I'm safe. I can go visit a place where I'm in the minority for a while. Whereas if you grow up in a minority, your whole set on things is different. And this guy told me that he also said he grew up in a world where in every movie up until, this was 10 years ago he was telling me this, but he said in every movie up until a few years before that, homosexuals are almost always portrayed as going crazy or being killed in the movies. Whereas that's not the portrayal of heterosexual romance in the movies. So I started to understand a little bit about why it isn't the same for them and why they might need a Zen center where they were in the majority. And another thing is that they have a different language and they can't talk in certain ways when they're mostly surrounded by heterosexuals.

[28:47]

That's what the guy told me. Whereas heterosexuals, when they're talking to homosexuals, homosexuals will often switch to heterosexual talk so that the heterosexuals can talk with them. It's very important to be able to talk when you're in a Buddhist community. It's very important to be able to talk to the people. Just like now, I'm trying to talk to you. And I thought that if these people were really interested in Buddhism, that Buddhism would be so much more important than sexual orientation, that it wouldn't matter. But I was wrong. And now I understand that particularly this ability to be able to talk to the people you're practicing with is extremely important. And I noticed over the years that after entering

[29:54]

through a situation where they were in the majority and where they could talk to people about the practice in their own language, that then they could go to a Zen center that was predominantly heterosexual. And because they got into the practice in this way and understood it, they could then make this transition after some number of years of practicing with people who had this commonality with them. And then just a couple days ago I was listening to the radio and this guy was on the radio talking about the closet, the characteristics of the closet. And again, you know, this is a confession to you about how much I hadn't thought about this, but he said that the closet works like this for some people, that when they're little boys,

[31:03]

they notice that little boys who are a little different from the other little boys get attacked often by the other boys, and particularly if they're a little, what, I don't know what, not aggressive or something, that sometimes they get called queer or fairy, and then the other boys beat up on them. And this man said, well, when he saw that, He certainly wanted to impress the other boys how tough he was. And one of the ways to prove how tough you are is to beat up on the other sissies and to attack the boys who might be gay. That proves that you're not gay. And that a lot of the people who attack gays and lesbians are people who are in the closet. and even consciously sexually active and attack these other people just to protect themselves and protect their cover.

[32:17]

And it just occurred to me, then it started to dawn on me that for heterosexuals to somehow open this closet up and go into this area, this dark place, which is dark for everybody, but to turn towards this, in this direction of this closet and to become aware of this homophobia, which we have for various reasons, is an example of totally engaging the self. For a heterosexual to try to understand what it is like for a homosexual is to the heterosexual's enrichment. It is for the heterosexual to become more herself or more himself.

[33:32]

But we sometimes think of this as extracurricular activities or something optional. Like, yeah, it's a nice idea, but I'm busy. Another example is what do you call wheelchair accessibility? I don't see any wheelchairs in this place. This is a wheelchair accessible place, but it is not accessible enough, I guess. And in the city center of San Francisco Zen Center, there's not a ramp into the building. And this is a Zen center, right? We're supposed to be into accessibility and into becoming free of this delusion that we're separate.

[34:42]

But if we were free of the delusion that we're separate, why wouldn't we be trying to get ourselves in our wheelchairs into the building? Well, it's expensive. It also would disturb the look of the building somewhat. It'd be a different looking building, nice looking building, designed by Julian Morgan, beautiful building, and now there'd be this big ramp out there But do we really want all sentient beings to be able to connect with us? Well, we do, but not that much. Not a ramp. Yucko. That's too much. Well, Zen Center board said, no, we really do want to do it. Week after week, month after month go by. So I'm confessing I'm a member of a community which is really slow to make itself wheelchair accessible because it's so difficult.

[35:47]

But that's not the reason. I think the reason is we don't really believe Buddhism enough. And we don't mind being in prison that much. So I was, you know, excuse me for saying so, very proud when I heard about this guy on the radio. I was very proud that my daughter this fall, when she first came to school this fall, she decided to work to develop a program of awareness of homophobia at her high school. She told me a few years ago that some of the kids she goes to school with say they've never met a homosexual. And so it's hard for her to believe.

[36:56]

Hard for her to believe. But again, I thought, you know, it's really great that she's doing that. When I was 16, it never crossed my mind to have some homophobia awareness work. So I don't know. Things are moving. So I guess, again, a question that comes up for me is, do we feel ourselves in this prison? Do you sense that you're in such a prison?

[38:01]

I've confessed to you some of the walls in my cell. Do you know what these walls feel like? Can you find them and how do they feel? And again, I guess I'm proposing that I totally express how it feels to be in prison. how it feels to be limited. Or not just how it feels but I just express myself from that place. And I'm proposing that release from that place comes from expressing from that place to when I'm alone and also when I'm with others.

[39:12]

In fact we always do express ourselves from that place. And it is in expressing ourselves from that place that we realize that there is no such place. And we don't have to tear down these walls. We realize that they never were there. They never are there. And yet, we believe that they are and express ourselves from that place. I think some of you have already heard this story that when you come to the gates of heaven to meet, is it St.

[40:47]

Peter? Is St. Peter at the gates? Is St. Peter a judge? No? Just a gatekeeper? Anyway, when you come to the gates of heaven, you will not be criticized or faulted for not being more like Jesus or Moses, you will only be faulted for not being more like yourself. The thing that keeps living beings from being Buddhas is their unwillingness to be themselves. When somebody is completely themselves, they're awake. And people may be shaking their heads at them and saying, no, no, don't be like that.

[42:04]

Or they maybe nod their head and say, yes, that's good. So I guess I'm saying, come home. Come home. Come home to a house that you cannot possess. That's your home. A house that you can't have and that you can't lose. And this ungraspable house

[43:12]

is a place from which you will be successful in love. This house can't be possessed and this house is everywhere. Your home is everywhere. You never lose it. And the only thing that's interfering with us being completely awake is our unwillingness to live in this true home. So I'm saying, let's use our body in an unusual way.

[45:07]

Let's use our mind in an unusual way. What's that unusual way? I can say whatever I want about it, you can say whatever you want about it, using the body and the mind in a totally ungraspable way. And even though it's ungraspable, your body and your mind, this home, and can you go away from home and see how that feels?

[46:34]

Can you have a sense of which is home and which is not home? What home is like and what not home is like? For me, not always, but right now, home, when I go towards home, I feel pain around my heart.

[47:43]

And I feel confidence that I'm home. The pain is not my home. It's just that going home, I feel the pain. And going away from home means to distract myself from this pain and to feel ashamed and not be confident. Being home, my anxiety subsides, and the pain protects me from being complacent. Going away from home is complacent, I lose track of the pain, and my anxiety is stronger, and my shame is stronger.

[48:54]

And the more thoroughly I feel at home, the closer I am to being ready to love, not knowing what that means. But daring to say it, not so much as a thing that I know anything about, but more as a kind of like If I say love, that means everybody gets to talk about it. Everybody knows as much about it as me. I'm not the expert on it. Everybody has equal rights. So I'm vulnerable to wheelchair accessibility, to the other, to whatever isn't me. I have to find a way to let it get me. And the way it will get me will be informed by my pain.

[50:18]

I spoke of the delusion that we're separate as a kind of prison. And in Buddhism, in Chinese Buddhism, the word that they use for hell is earth prison, or prison in the earth. But I believe that if we find ourselves in hell, the way to get out of hell is to be an expert on hell. To be aware of every little detail of what it's like to be in hell is the same as freedom from hell. What gets us into hell is unwillingness to look at the details of hell or the details of anything that we consider to be other. The way out of hell is to take complete responsibility for the hell in all of its minute details.

[51:53]

To take complete responsibility for hell in all its minute details is an example of total engagement of yourself. And it is an example of an unusual way of using our body and mind. You could even say a reversal of the way we usually use our body and mind. And so this talk that I've done this morning, I would like you to know is not my idea of what it's like to love.

[53:26]

But even though it wasn't my idea, this was the way I did it. This was my love. And now I will experience the results. Thanks. We question our hearts, such as eating salmon. I've gotten rats before. And perhaps if we can drop the personal barriers to one thing and the community barriers to another possible. Well, you know, if we thought that Zen Center was, what do you call it, an engineering school, then it wouldn't be much of a leap to say, oh, now we can build a ramp.

[54:47]

Wouldn't that be fun? But our idea is the building looks nice without a ramp. And we didn't expect when we came to practice in sitting meditation, we didn't expect that you'd be involved in building ramps for wheelchairs to come into the meditation hall. So once one person gets the idea that building a ramp for a wheelchair to come up on is like the same as Buddha's meditation then that person's got no problem with it and the money's not really a problem it's just like money is not a problem but if you're not sure what it's got to do with or if you think it's peripherally related to perfect wisdom then you might think well it'd be good to do but it's a lower priority And oftentimes the things that are lower priority are things which have to do with somebody else.

[55:49]

If you were the abbot of Zen Center and you were in a wheelchair, probably you'd be wheelchair accessible, right? And you'd also feel like, gee, it's funny you asked me to be the teacher here and I can't get into your meditation hall. You know, do you really want me here? And... So I think that the reason why it's hard is because we just haven't seen yet that this is a great opportunity to build a ramp. And if you don't see it as a great opportunity and it costs money, it just seems kind of like, well, we'll do it, but tomorrow. So I just don't feel like anybody really... I shouldn't say not anybody, but anyway, the awareness that this is a great opportunity, that this would be a wonderful thing, aside from the fact that it, not aside from, but not just because it lets people get in, but also because it's a chance for people to open up their mind to an area of practice or an area of realization that they weren't expecting even to ever be able to practice in.

[57:06]

Some other people probably think, well, square dancing probably has nothing to do with Buddhism, or Lots of things that people think aren't areas that we should directly be involved in, those areas, if we're supposed to do something in that area, we feel somewhat obstructed by the way we think about it. And then connect that over to personal practice, that being or not is a concern. So what I'm suggesting is that on a personal level, in the example that you gave, if you then took on the practice of fasting from, of letting go of practice, then I was suggesting that perhaps that would enhance the possibilities of the community. making this road into not separating again. It's taking down these walls that separate us.

[58:08]

Well, there's one salmon over here that I can eat, and there's another salmon over here that I'm going to protect. And then there's one idea over here that I'm going to promote, but actually I feel separate from people. So this whole thing about bringing down the walls, this delusion of separation, For me, I'm seeing a connection between a personal expression of that and a community expression of that. I'm wondering if, since on an individual level we have to do something individually, then perhaps on an individual level we all looked in ourselves and said, well, this is the practice that I could do. perhaps on a collective way that will enhance the awareness of the group to then be able to do another practice that needs to be done by the group, not by the individual. Yes, but I guess, yes, but I guess I understood the wheelchair thing as not a group thing because with one person, for example, if I really got hot on the, I have a certain position, but anyway, if I got hot on the wheelchair accessibility, for me it would be a personal thing.

[59:25]

And if I got hot on it, it would happen. So. You mentioned the board. No, the board actually has said they want to build it. So Zen Center is, as a policy, wants to be wheelchair accessible and has decided we do want to be wheelchair accessible. We're committed to that. The decision's been made. So what's the problem? The problem is it hasn't happened yet. Huh? like I say, you know, the bathhouse is being dismantled, you know, this is happening, that's happening, just, you know, obstructions, right? Obstructions to things, you know, there's 55 things you want to do, and then the highest priority happens first, the next one happens, so it's down the list, you know, from other things. It got put down the list. It's on the list of things we should do. There's money allotted for it, but it's been now more than a year since they made that decision, since it's happened.

[60:30]

And really, they haven't started a ramp yet in the city center. So I'm just saying that's an example of people just don't see it as really that groovy a practice opportunity yet. And I think you're right that if... If you see one thing as a great opportunity that you didn't see before, then that's likely to lead you to see the other one. One insight tends to produce another one. That's right. Only if you act on the first one. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I... So I took it that one personal thing would lead to another personal thing, but also one personal thing affects the group, too. And groups of individuals are the ones who got us to become aware of this issue. It could have been groups, but it turns out it was individuals who wanted accessibility.

[61:34]

And they kept bringing it up and bringing it up. And the board finally made a decision, but then even after they brought it up, the board didn't move, so now they brought it up again. And so now, maybe this time, in a short, maybe not too long from the time about a week ago until now, maybe something will happen. Things are going to be said to these people right away. Their letters are being circulated. But I just, like I say, it's like, Most people at Zen Center are not in wheelchairs. So for most people at Zen Center, people in wheelchairs are a little bit different from us. And therefore, we have problems putting that as a higher priority as what works for most of us. So there's a tendency, if you have a group of people and they're concerned with, like, I don't know what, Buddhism or something, that when...

[62:35]

that when somebody who's not in that group asks for something or wants something that's different from their idea of that, they're likely to say, well, you know, this is just not what we're into. Well, it's true that they feel that way, but it's also true that if they would suddenly see, oh, this is what we're into, somehow their mind would get bigger. They would understand that what they thought they were into was not what they're into. And that's what Buddhism's about. is to keep forgetting what we're doing here and keep liberating ourselves from our limited idea. And we always have limited ideas. And so there's a knock on the door which says, how about this too? And we say, well, no. And we have to have some limited idea because we have to say, we're not saying we're here to do everything. We're not here to say, well, I don't know what. We're not here. We're not a college. You know, we're not giving PhDs in nuclear physics, right?

[63:40]

We say that. But if somebody comes and says, I want, you know, blah-de-blah, and it seems outside of our idea, still, usually, the fact that they're asking for it means something. What does that mean? Especially if they knock again and again, they say, I want to come in. And then at some point in a way, we wake up, and then we understand everything changes. Yes? Yes. There's a component of it where we need to look at ourselves. This practice involves a lot of emphasis on certain ways of sitting and posture and certain ways of using our bodies. I know for me, it's difficult to contemplate being disabled, being unable to sit properly. that I find that threatening. And raises the question for me whether that's part of what goes on with our hesitance and delay responding to these requests.

[64:52]

I think that's part of it. And also, I don't know what they are. At least some of them are people that are already part of the March of Zen Center. Right. Right. But if they were the majority, this place would be very accessible to wheelchairs, I think. It would look different already if they were the founders of Zen Center. But in fact... There's not so many of them. And in fact, those of us who don't need wheelchair accessibility, we don't think every day about that. That's normal. But still, when somebody comes and asks, and we say, oh, yes, we want to be wheelchair accessible. OK, that's nice of us. We do that. That's a nice response. But then we don't do it right away. Why don't we do it right away? They would probably say, well, let's do it right away. But we say, well, you know, we'll do it.

[65:53]

A couple more months, not so bad. But from their point of view, it's kind of long. And so actually, they do think it's been kind of long from the time they brought it up to the time they had to bring it to our attention. Until now, some of them are kind of upset. And so now they're knocking again at the door. Now what are we going to do? Well, thanks for your reminder. Now are we going to do it? at a speed that they feel like, hey, I really feel recognized. I feel acknowledged by the way you're responding to me. I feel acknowledged by the way you're talking to me. How can we talk to the other in a way that the other feels affirmed and we feel affirmed? This is Buddhism. That's Buddhism. Yes? Why don't you just carry me like Maharajah? Well, they aren't asking... I've been interrupted by, you know...

[66:54]

make the whole thing out of that just in the interim? Well, it's possible that they're saying they don't want that. They just want to be normalized. They want to be like ordinary person. They don't want to be like better or worse. That's what they're saying. Most of them are saying, we just want to be like, we want accessibility to the normal, as much as possible, the normal way. And so actually, in fact, we have carried wheelchairs upstairs at Zen Center. I actually threw my back out one time carrying one of those wheelchairs that has a lot of big motor on the back of it. And we carried the guy up. That was 10 years ago. Now, but he hasn't come back very much since then because he doesn't like to be carried up the stairs. It's also not as, what if they drop? It's a little bit less secure, too. Even though those people are carrying you, they might drop you. He was heavy with his big machine. So I think, anyway, I haven't heard them say, you know, well, if you carry us up the stairs, that'll be okay. They don't want that. And also they're concerned not just for themselves, but for others who maybe aren't important enough to be carried in.

[67:58]

Are you carrying me in? Because I'm not. Whatever. But would you carry every person, every wheelchair accessible? And do you have people outside standing there with signs saying that you will do this? Because an ordinary wheelchair person comes up there and they just look. They can't see a way to get in. Anyway, I would guess also that the word would spread among them. Oh, Zen Center is one of the places that's made that possible. And you can do that. Also, I think we should have signing here. For deaf people, I think that would be nice. I don't know if they would come, but just to offer it, it would be beautiful. Signing is very difficult to learn. Otherwise, I think, you know, I was considering learning myself, because I thought it would be a very expressive way to use your hands while you're talking. Because some of these symbols, some of these gestures are very beautiful. Like, I forgot what they are, but the one for life and death, they're very, they're beautiful mudras. But it's very difficult to learn it, so it takes years and years and years.

[69:04]

But to have somebody there who could do it, it would be beautiful. Yes? As you're talking, I just think about how difficult it is sometimes to relate to a group. Because, you know, talking about a group of people or some people who expressed a need for something, why don't you guys do this? Why don't you guys do this? And I remember that I'd always sort of missed that there was child care here. There used to be. But when I get a little bugged about it, I just think, well, if I want child care here, then I should start child care here. If people want to get something going, instead of how about you guys do this, why is it the question, what do we need to do to make this happen. Well, do I need to call the contractor? Do I need to, you know, instead of having to sort of come on? Well, that's right.

[70:06]

That's good for that person to think of. I mean, it's interesting. On the other hand, if you come charging into a group and say, I'm going to build ramps and I called the contractor and the moving truck was coming, that's offensive. So it's just this interesting kind of what, you know, kind of like a group of co-creators as it goes to consumers. As opposed to the... Consumers. Right. And if you could, if you had that attitude, or if you had that insight and you came to Zen Center and you tried to encourage Zen Center, help Zen Center do something, you'd run into... a very complex response, but if your attitude was, oh, this is really interesting, rather than, oh, this is too complicated. What some people do, what some governments do to stop certain things happening, just increase the red tape on certain stuff, and then it doesn't happen.

[71:09]

So Zen Center can do that, too. If they don't want something to happen, just make the process such that almost no one who is basically goal-oriented would be willing to do it. But if you think the process of interacting is as useful as the result, then that person would be teaching Zen Center or something. And if Zen Center similarly thought the process of building a ramp was as interesting as formal yogic postures, then somebody would get involved in it. So each person should take that point of view of, you know, I think the people who are asking should take the point of view, but if they're not, then we shouldn't say, well, we shouldn't tell them to do it, we should take it. And they shouldn't tell us to do it, we should take it. But when somebody is telling you to do it, you should do it. But you shouldn't be telling other people to do it, even though they should. That's one thing nice about having talks, is you can tell people this without telling anybody. You can make these suggestions to people without telling them.

[72:13]

Since it's a general group, I'm not talking to you. This doesn't apply to you. You don't have this problem. Yes? You know, what I like about Buddhism is that it does include everything. Pardon? What I do enjoy about Buddhism is that I understand the importance of it. And I really enjoyed what you had to say about self-expression. And I feel that Buddhism and being real, there's a lot of truth and passion about being real, which I really appreciate and enjoy. I got a little confused about, when you say self-expression, self-awareness, there's almost a separation in that, right? You know, there's the self-expression, just who Tanya is, and then there's a deeper, what you call the Buddha self.

[73:21]

And I would say I'm more of expressing Tanya than I would be Anna. I guess what I mean by self-expression is just to the fullest coming from the fullest awareness that you have of where you're at, how you are at a given moment, to express that. And that often seems to be a limited thing from your own point of view or from the point of view of others.

[74:29]

But in fact, that is what you have to offer. And sometimes you're not being asked to say anything. I mean, sometimes you think you're not being asked to say something. Sometimes I think I'm being asked to listen. And who I am is a person who thinks he's being asked to listen. That's who I think, that's who I understand I am. I'm a person who's living in a world where the environment's saying to him, listen. And if I listen, that's an expression of my understanding of myself. I may also be someone who is having trouble listening, who doesn't want to listen, who wants to talk. And one way to express that is to start talking. But another way to express it is to hear that I'm really being asked to listen. That seems to be a strong request. And I also think it would be good, but I also would like to talk. And the result of that being that way might be that I would just listen, even though I

[75:33]

part of me has the impulse to talk. Or I might honor the side of, it keeps coming up again and again, I want to talk, I want to talk, I don't want to listen. I might stop and say, you know, I feel like you're asking me to listen, but I don't think you want me to listen this long. Is that correct? And the first time I say, yeah, that's right, I didn't want to talk that long, but I couldn't stop. So it's, In fact, every moment I do express myself, every moment you do express yourself, the question is, do you feel that you're completely doing it, completely expressing yourself, which is the resolution of all the innumerable things that make you who you are? Are you expressing that? Do you feel you're expressing that? Sometimes you have to scream to express it. Sometimes you have to snap your fingers. Sometimes you have to wink.

[76:36]

Sometimes you have to cry. Sometimes you have to listen. Sometimes who I am is really, most of who I am is I'm a person sitting and listening. That's like the closest thing to where I'm at sometimes. The most beautiful way I can be is to listen to somebody. And I feel completely like I'm expressing myself completely where I'm at, just listening. Other times, it's time for me to sing, or me to dance, or me to run, or me to say, wait a minute, that's where I'm at. And each moment, we have a sense. It's not infallible, maybe, but it's pretty useful. We have a sense of whether we're expressing ourselves. And we must be aware in order to use that sense. So self-expression, complete self-expression, goes with mindfulness.

[77:38]

And it goes with patience. And it goes with honesty. And it goes with concentration. And it goes with non-attachment. And it sets up wisdom. It sets up the possibility of seeing, because it's hard to see what's going on if you aren't aware of what you're doing. Yes? Regarding full self-expression, what about the thoughts... Did you say full? Full self-expression. Yes. What about the thoughts that we think and the emotions that we feel? that we don't want to express, that it's like part of the pattern and that you don't think it's appropriate to express at that time. It has to be certain about discrimination. That's right. So I often feel things that I do not think I should express.

[78:43]

I often do. But it is, for me, not to express those things is a full self-expression. Because what I am is I'm a person who has this thought bubbling up in his head, which could lead to me saying that thought. For example, I knew this woman once, who I liked very much, and every time I saw her, I thought of saying, hi, fatty. I don't know how to say it. I never said it. Good. Because I didn't think she'd appreciate it. I thought she would just get upset. I don't know if she would have. She might not have. I don't know. That was who I was. I was a person who thought she wouldn't appreciate it.

[79:46]

And I didn't mean it to tease. It wasn't a teasing thing. It just popped in my head. And there's other people who I feel perfectly comfortable calling fatty. And I call them fatty. And it doesn't bother them at all. It never has and might someday if they changed in certain ways. But given the way they are, being very slim and so on, you know? They know it's just a kind of like affectionate expression, you know? They have no sense of them being unattractive for being overweight or whatever. Huh? It's not an issue. It's not an issue. So it's in a realm where, you know, I can just express what comes into my head and it's that. But what comes into my head is, hi, fatty, and she probably won't think it's good, therefore I'm not going to do it. So the appropriateness is also, my sense of appropriateness is also who I am.

[80:48]

And I'm evaluating moment after moment, or be appropriate. I naturally do that. If you would have called that person fatty after you thought... that you shouldn't, that would not be full expression for you. No, I'm not necessarily... Well, you thought that the first thing that came up was, I want to call her Fatty. No, it wasn't I want to call her Fatty. The first thing that came up was, Hi, Fatty. But you didn't say it. I never said it. Well, let's say you did say it. But I never said I wanted to say it. I just said the thought came to my mind, Hi, Fatty, in my head, in my brain. Before you say things, you think them. You may not be aware of it, but you do. And so a lot of things I think of saying to people, I just don't say, because they wouldn't appreciate it. Particularly because of my position here at Zen Center, they just wouldn't appreciate it. Maybe you should have a day.

[81:51]

You'd have a day where you say, and everybody knows I don't have that suit on. I'd love to do that. But I think people would say, well, yeah, but still. It would be an interesting day. It would be an interesting day. Anyway, I seem to cause enough trouble even editing. But I don't consider, you know, I generally speaking try not to edit myself. I try not to. Because I don't know what will bother other people. So I may edit the things that wouldn't bother them and not edit the things which do bother them. So I mostly do express myself, and I get negative feedback. And once I get it, then that has an effect on me. Doesn't mean it completely stops, but it changes me somewhat. Like I often use it, you know, your liberty may be someone else's oppression. So like to go like this may seem like not that bad thing, but if he was sitting close to me and I kind of came close to his face or hit him in the face, then he might say to me, you know, stop that.

[83:00]

Then after that, I don't really have to edit myself to go like this. It's just, now that I know he's there, it's like, it isn't, I didn't really mean to hit him, so I just changed the gesture of my arms. I go more high in the air or something once I get that feedback. But part of my self-expression in that case was I wasn't restraining myself, really. I just thought of that idea. That was a perfectly nice thought. It happened. It had its space. And then it didn't go out in the words because I was pretty sure. in her case. I wasn't really editing myself. I was pretty sure. But I still don't know. I never did ask her, you know. I never said, you know, this is a funny thing. Every time I see you, I think of saying this. I'm not saying it. I think of this now. Would you like to... Are we intimate enough for me to say that to you? We already know, by the way, she's responding to you before. So that's precisely why I didn't say anything. Yeah, in this particular case, this person didn't have much of a sense of humor around this particular issue.

[84:05]

So because of other information, I did sort of conclude that. But I never did check with her to see if, in fact, that would have been something she would enjoy. So I don't know. Martha was next. Yeah, just because I shook my head because I thought I'd eaten sand. Yeah, yeah. I don't know exactly why I did that, but around here, I know some people have been whispering and they were going to go to Kentucky Fried Chicken and look at this as a vegetarian place and that everybody who lives here is a strict vegetarian. But in fact, a lot of people go out and eat roast beef and chicken. And at first, I was like... But what bothered me, I think, was the sneakiness about it and that kind of whispering and lowering your voice when you mentioned what they had for dinner last night or something. And so I thought that's actually really courageous that you just came out and said you're a deep fan. So why did you shake your head? I don't know why I did.

[85:08]

I don't have no idea. What is the difference between saying what people like to hear and saying what is really affirming to that deep sense of self? Is there a difference when we are thinking about something to say between saying what's easy to clear, so what is obvious and pleasing, and when it is really affirming, something that they need to be affirmed in that sense? Well, I guess sometimes saying what is pleasing to someone is not self-affirming, but usually it is. Usually when you say something which affirms and acknowledges somebody, usually they find that quite pleasing. In other words, you say something that they feel affirms them and they feel acknowledges them, they usually fulfill

[86:16]

Pleasant. I guess there might be some examples where you say something to someone where they feel pleasure but don't feel affirmed. I guess there's some examples of that. I mean that certain people are just used to compliments. They are used to 100 people saying they are beautiful or whatever, and it doesn't bother them. It doesn't bother them? Certain people are used to insults, and it doesn't bother them either way. But perhaps there's some aspect of the person that needs to be affirmed, and if we see it, then we're able to affirm it for them. That's what I'm saying. And in that respect, we would be different from Cardinal. who con the people out of everything they have. So that's what I meant. How would we be performing to someone and at the same time to them if we have to say something that's... I guess I'm mixed up in my thoughts, but my thoughts are not clear on this. Yeah, well... I think that

[87:23]

The ultimate state, the state that Buddhist practice is working to support, is a situation where what we say to each other affirms, where we affirm and acknowledge each other's self. That we enter into that kind of relationship. That's the self, that's the deep self. The self as a deep self is that relationship where our two small selves are affirmed by the other and where we also affirm the other. The person I am who affirms you, yourself, and is affirmed by yourself, that person is not a small self. But you see, it's the relationship that's the big self. A relationship where we're both affirmed. And I'm proposing that the approach to being free of my small self is to express my small self in such a way that it affirms another self.

[88:29]

Sometimes my small self is a self that says to another person, that was great. That's who I am, is to say that was great. Sometimes my small self is to say, that really hurt me. And sometimes to say to somebody that really hurt them really affirms them because they're trying to hurt you. They're trying to hurt you. And when they succeed, if you tell them they did, they feel affirmed. But you're not saying you're a bad person. You're saying you were successful. You hurt me. If you're doing certain things with people, like if you're walking down the street with somebody, and let's say you have, I don't know what, you have a chain on your ankle, and it's connected to their ankle. And they suddenly decide, you're walking straight ahead, and they suddenly decide to take a right without talking to you. And they start moving, and it pulls on your leg, and it hurts you, and you say...

[89:41]

Oh, wait a minute, talk to me before you do this stuff, or whatever, you know. Please don't just walk, you know, take into account your relationship with me. This isn't exactly a pleasant information, but it affirms them. It shows them, oh yeah, I have this function in your life, don't I? Whenever I go someplace without talking to you, I drag you with me, which, you know, upsets you because I didn't warn you beforehand. It's kind of affirming of the relationship and who they are, even though it's not exactly pleasantly pleasant, but it affirms. It shows them their function in your life. I sometimes say to certain people I'm working closely with, I'll use an example. Some of the people I'm working with, they sometimes say to me, well, one of my students said to me, I'm going to go to Germany now. And I said, oh, fine. Well, give me your robes back. This was a priest, you know, and I was training this priest, and he just told me he was going to go to Germany without discussing it with me. I said, well, fine, but you're not training with me anymore then.

[90:44]

If you tell a friend that you're going to go to Europe, they say, oh, great. If you tell your spouse that you're going to Germany, they say, oh, you're insane. What do you mean you're going to Germany? You can't just drop that and walk out the door. This is something you discussed with me because everything you do has an effect on me. This affirms them. Sometimes people don't realize that what they're doing has an effect on you. And sometimes you say this to people and say, I didn't know you cared. I didn't know, you know, what I did affected you that much. But that's who they are. They are somebody who does have an effect on you. Sometimes we, I also sometimes feel bad about telling people the effect they're having on me. Because I don't want to burden with the fact that if they do those things, it has an effect on me. But in fact, that's who I am. I'm a person who, when this person tells me they're going to Germany, I say, great.

[91:48]

When this person tells me he's going to Germany, I say, what? That's who I am. That's my understanding of our relationship, is that he will not decide to move from one continent to another without discussing it with me. That's my understanding. And given that understanding, if he goes against my understanding, it hurts my brain. It hurts my body. So I tell him, like I say, if you want to do that, my answer is no. You can do whatever you want, but I want you to know, for me, the answer is no. And that's who I am, and that's who I'm expressing. And with some of the people I'm working with in Zen practice, I often say, when they tell me about things, I often say, over here are the answers. I don't like it. I don't want it to happen. I don't want you to do it. Now you have to decide what to do, given that I feel that way. It doesn't mean I'm trying to control them. It could, but it doesn't. But it doesn't mean my job is to say, this person who's playing the role of your teacher says no.

[92:53]

Now you have to figure out what to do with that. That affirms them, and they often say, at first they maybe go, oh, God, this is, you know. But then later they say, thank you. And one of my students said, I talked to her about, she was going to take Saturday morning off for meditation, not go to meditation Saturday mornings. And I said, I really, if you want to know what I want, I go to meditation Saturday mornings. I want you there sitting with me. That's what I want. Now you know. And a couple days later she said, you know, I was afraid you were going to back off that and not say that you wanted me to do it. It's difficult to get into that space with people. I just want to say what you just said in response to this lady's question. I'm worried about a type of parenting that I think maybe parents don't do, which is to say, I really don't like what you're telling me that you want to do, and you're going to be an adult and you need to decide.

[94:04]

But from my point of view, I'm really against what you're suggesting, which again says I'm connected to you and I care.

[94:12]

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