I'm wondering about, you know, the first of the major precepts you spoke about is taking sight of my unified path, your bias, unity, or oneness in your life. Yes. Is that also done in each moment by moment by moment that you're living? What I've noticed is I have a habit to feel this is not it. So I really heard in your discussions, the way I listened was that

[01:03]

I could hear again that implicit in the mirror that there's something else. It can be almost wherever I am. It's a blessing to me in order that I'm able to see that now. I can see that. So do you necessarily speak about the unity in the moment? I thought that's what I was talking about. I guess the only kind of unity I know about is in the moment because I don't know what else there is. Do you? I mean, some other time is also disunity. So I concentrate on practice of dropping the mind that thinks in terms of this time and another time.

[02:06]

There is such a mind that I can think of this time and another time, but I just drop that mind. That's the mind that makes me feel like I only have a little time to talk to you because I have another appointment. I do have such a mind that can think I have another appointment, but I drop that mind. and try to accept eternity right now. Continually coming back to that. Continually coming back to that. Yes. That's the only thing that I care about, is everything. Oops. I even ripped my robe. Okay, so thank you for your demonstration of the human mind. We all have that thing of feeling like this is not it. But also, this is not it.

[03:11]

That won't do. Also, this is it. That won't do. Because this is it sounds good, but then this is it, but then that isn't. So this is it doesn't do. This isn't it doesn't do. Both doesn't do. What does do? What does do? How are you? We don't say, this is it. You cannot say, this is it. That misses. You just, how are you? In the book that I was reading, I have a New Yorker cartoon of two little kids. I can't tell whether they're boys or girls, but one of them is standing... with his mouth kind of wide open saying, I don't understand anything about life. How about you? And the other little boy is speechless.

[04:22]

He's standing there. And over on the park bench, there's two ladies, two elderly ladies, sitting on a park bunch. And one's looking kind of like this. Kind of somewhat knowledgeable. Kind of, I know where it's at. And the other one's kind of like... Yes. What do you think is the function of speaking? The function of speaking? It seems that whenever I open my mouth, I'm so far from your name right now, for lack of a better word, the reason for it's the moment.

[05:34]

It's not just thoughts, but words create this whole earth reality. Uh-huh. And I wondered how you see the connections of the non-sleeping reality. Uh-huh. Can we decide from getting a word through the door? Or is there anything else? Sure. Speaking can be an opportunity to express speech follows the mind. Speech is an expression of the mind. And speech can be an opportunity to express the mind which thinks in terms of me and you. So I can talk to you right now like I'm talking to you. I can talk to you that way. If I have the mind that thinks in terms of me and you, then I can talk to you from that mind.

[06:37]

And that's, for me, quite painful. And even if I tell you that it's painful, it's still painful. However, it does help a little bit to tell you it's painful. I'm actually trying that mind on right now just for a little pain. Just like, I'm here, you're there, we're separate, and I'm talking to you. Then I can have a different mind. I can drop that mind. Now I can drop that mind. The mind can be dropped, and we can speak to express... we can express that that mind's dropped off. And then I'm not talking to you anymore. So singing is nice because oftentimes when we sing, even if there's you in the song, we don't have to have another person around to do that. We can sing I love you without really feeling there's somebody else out there.

[07:42]

I love you, wish you land a peck. and a hug around the neck. This doesn't have to be about somebody else. It's coming from the mind which drops off difference. It's coming from the dropping off of the mind that makes a difference. And you can talk from there too. And that mind is not in pain. And they're both there at the same time, all the time. So you what? You try to make right speech? Yes. The task is to be aware that the speaking creates this eye difference. No, the speaking doesn't create it. The speaking expresses it. The mind makes the separation. It's in the mind that we actually think we're separate.

[08:44]

Then we talk that way. It comes from that way of understanding. It ramifies it. It extends it. It spreads the bad news. I would like them to be aware of speaking of what my mind is doing and how speaking is spreading bad news. at the same time. May I make a suggestion? That you just be aware of the mind that separates and don't try to be aware of the mind that doesn't separate. Because the mind that doesn't separate, you cannot be aware of.

[09:47]

It's not separate. to be aware of. It's realized simply by being aware of the mind that separates. In other words, just be honest and the other mind's well taken care of. And the more honest we are, the more it starts to glow and shine and be realized. So if you try to hold that wonderful mind of unity, then you've confused yourself. You've mistaken another example of the mind that makes separation. by a new name called unity so the practice of uniformity doesn't mean you try to think in a uniform way like you try to control your mind into some uniform thing it just means you have the feeling and the commitment to only do one thing but again this one thing is formless and We need to admit that we're constantly creating forms of separation.

[10:51]

That's just simply being honest about what we're up to. If you do that all the way, the root of the mind, the root of the tendency to hold that mind which makes difference, that root degenerates. And the mind still comes up which makes difference, but you don't need to hold it anymore. You don't need to be a slave of it anymore. You can just let it do its thing. It's just like... It's just like flowers blooming on the hill. But again, we can attach to flowers blooming on the hill, just like we can attach to that mind. But when they first bloom, at the first moment, when we can stand it and leave them alone, it's like that. Just enjoy the mind. Don't, like, confuse it with reality. But also don't, like, hold reality. Practices of right speech which I can do are kind of like... that's like I'm still a chick in that sense, you know?

[11:58]

I'm still a chick in the shell of the world where I do things. And in the shell of where I do things, I try to practice right speech. I try to practice kind speech. I try to speak kindly. I try to speak kindly, okay? That's the best I can do inside that shell. Well, one practice... Examining what reality I'm creating. Right. But one could practice kind speech. Or one could practice right speech from the point of view of I practice right speech. In the world of duality that we're living in, that's the only way we can understand practice in a way, is I do practice of right speech. I practice kind speech. I do this good thing. I do that bad thing. That's the best we can do, but those pecks, those are pecks on the inside of the shell. And if you completely pay attention to how you're pecking on that shell by this attempt to practice good, I'm trying to practice good.

[13:05]

I'm trying to drop non-virtue. I'm trying to help people. All these things are my personal effort. It's dualistic, okay? It's the best I can do, though, in that world. And if I admit it completely, those are my pecks on the shell. Outside Buddha is sitting there saying, come on, keep it up. Keep it up. And Buddha is pounding back on the other side, you know. Boom. Every time we go, it goes boom. So we do our best from a dualistic point of view. And as we completely get intensively involved in our dualistic activity, Buddha then says, you're ready to face the truth. And it breaks open. Suppose the shell breaks open. That happens. Yes. And after a shell breaks open, you don't necessarily, or I have it, after that, stay in that same space.

[14:08]

So the precepts are away. They just are trying to express something, see at the moment of the shell break. Yeah. That's part of what they can do is give you a mode to express. Oh, there's another one to go through. Right. This shell-breaking thing can be endlessly deepened and widened. And the precepts are helpful before, during, and after. And every time the shell breaks, you get a totally new, different understanding of the precepts. So my understanding of the precepts just keeps molting and dropping its skin off and becoming a new understanding of the precepts. just keeps going wah, wah, wah. And it's embarrassing, you know, when you look back at how you used to understand them. I used to understand Buddhist practice inside that little shell. But, you know, we sometimes say that acts of childhood seem embarrassing in old age. But it's also sweet, the way we used to understand practice, before we broke out of that shell.

[15:13]

Now we're in another one, and soon we'll be embarrassed about this one. But that's normal, you know. There's all kinds of encouraging stories about how that happens in the process. There's no limit to the growth, except the limit of the growth of our understanding is the limit of the growth of all beings. When everyone's enlightened, then I guess we're done. But fortunately, we are not out of work yet. We have job security. Tell us the story. Yes. So... After, what's his name, Wei Yun grew up and became a teacher, he left and went to Yao Shan, Medicine Mountain, and then students came in the hordes.

[16:25]

And one of them that came was named Cloudy Cliff, or actually, that's his monk, that's his name, his place that he lived in, he lived in Cloudy Cliff. His monk's name was Dim Splendor. Or you might say Muted Splendor or Subtle Splendor. And this person, this young monk, one of the things I like about these stories is that it shows how we often how the chicken often has two eyes, you know. So, yeah, Wei Yun had two teachers, two great teachers, Stonehead and Master Ma. So there's two teachers, okay? And these two teachers, these two great teachers, sent their monks back and forth between each other to, and, you know, did this really happen that

[17:39]

that he said that to him, you know, he said, being just so won't do, not being just so won't do, how about you? And then he went to see the other guy and the other guy said, sometimes it's this way, sometimes it's that way, sometimes this way is okay, sometimes that way. How about you? Is that, was that a setup or did that really happen? Or what does it mean that this really happens? Is this possible that people are working so well together? Anyway, that's the story. And the story I told last week, do you remember that one? Can you tell it? Do you remember it? Clay? Right. Can you speak up? Yeah. Could you hear that? Student of Master Ma wanted to see Stonehead. The student told Master Ma, and Master Ma said, take care of the way it's slippery.

[18:42]

The student elapsed and took care of the way to see Stonehenge. He asked Stonehenge a question. Yeah, he said something like, you know, in your school, what teaching do you expound? I do remember that the student was... Well, we can't do better than that. And then there's another story.

[19:57]

One time the student of Master Miles went to see Stonehead And he said to Stonehead, actually, he went in to see Stonehead very strongly. He went in and just stood in front of him and shook his staff and said, in your school, what teaching do you expound? And Stonehead said, it's fine. It's fine. And the student was speechless. And he went back home to Master Ma and told him what happened. And Master Ma said, go back again. And ask him the same question. If he says it's fine again, heave a great sigh. Now do you remember the story, Clay? So the monk goes back.

[21:01]

And what does he do? That's the same question. How did they work that out? The student was speechless. And I don't think he was speechless that time. So they did this kind of thing, these two teachers sending their monks back and forth, okay? And, oh, by the way, I told a little bit of a fib today. You know, when I said, when Stonehead was talking to Wei Yun, and he said, you know, what are you doing sitting there? And Wei Yun said, I'm not doing anything at all. And then Stonehead said, well, then you're sitting idly.

[22:01]

And he said, if I were sitting idly, I would be doing something. And he said, you say you're not doing anything. What is it that you're not doing? And then Wei Yun said, even the 10,000 sages don't know. And then Stonehead broke into song. He didn't actually sing that song that I sang. He sang a different one. Here's a song he sang. But I don't know the melody to this song. I should set this to music, or somebody should. Any musicians here? Sure, I'll set it. Get the piano there. Okay, here's a song. Though we have been together from the beginning, I do not know your name. We go about together like this, leaving all to the flow of destiny. Even the great sages of antiquity did not know you.

[23:05]

How could foolish, hasty people understand? That was his song. Celebrating his little chicken. So, uh... So you have these two great teachers, and these two great teachers have these wonderful successors, like, what is it, Master Stonehead has a successor, Wei Yun, and Master Ma has a number of great successors. One of them is named Bai Zhang. So now in the next generation, you have lots of wonderful students, and two of the most notable ones are Yao Shan, Medicine Mountain, concern with majesty and the other one is Bai Zhang one of the greatest teachers of all time Bai Zhang means 10 times 100 Bai is 100 and Zhang means 10 it's a measurement of 10 means 10 feet the name the name that they call Abbott's room is Zhang squared 10 by 10 a 10 foot square room is the name of

[24:25]

word they use for aperture. So it's a measurement of about 10 feet. So it's 100 times 10 feet, so it means 1,000 feet. And the name of his temple was 1,000 feet. I guess it was on a cliff 1,000 feet tall or something. That was his name. His Buddhist name, his monk's name is Waihai, which means ocean of wisdom. Like Dalai Lama means ocean of wisdom. Actually Dalai Lama means Mr. Ocean of Wisdom. So Bai Zhang... Bai Zhang is a Zen teacher who made famous the expression, a day of no work is a day of no eating, or a day of no food. He made work, he made manual labor part of the monk's meditation practice, and when he was an old man, they took away his gardening tools so he couldn't work. They didn't want to lose their teacher because he was their sunshine.

[25:32]

And so they took away his tools, so he stopped eating until they gave his tools back. Anyway, he was a great teacher. And so these two great teachers are the successors of those two great teachers. And then a young monk came along whose name was, as I told you, Dim Splendor. Now, he had dim splendor, but Bai Zhang being a great teacher, all great teachers can see people's spiritual potentials, you know. So although he had dim splendor, and it was, I guess, dim, very ordinary guy, you know, he let this ordinary guy be his attendant for 20 years. He let this ordinary guy who... By my calculations, he was 14 when he came to be Bai Zhang's attendant, and he was an attendant from 14 to 34, and then Bai Zhang passed away.

[26:37]

And they say that although he had the opportunity to be the attendant of one of the greatest teachers of all time, he was unsuccessful in his study. Just like on the others, just like before, Wei Yun was unsuccessful. Even though his teacher gave him that perfect teaching, he couldn't get it. It wasn't time. So his teacher sent him to somebody else, and then the conditions came together and he woke up. So, similarly, this young man, but he appreciated the opportunity and he did study closely with him for 20 years. And then after that, he went and studied with Wei Yun. Now, Wei Yin, of course, these teachers like to hear about each other, right? And the way they hear about each other is usually by the messenger service of the monks. The monks go from temple to temple and then they say, well, what did your teacher teach? And they tell him, you know. So, when Dim Splendor came to see Medicine Mountain, Medicine Mountain let him be his attendant, too.

[27:47]

So he got to be the attendant of the next great teacher. This ordinary kind of dim guy, is getting a lot of good opportunities for some reason. So he asked him all these questions, you know, about his teacher. So here's what he asked him. He said... So he says, what's Baijan's teaching? What's Brother Waihai's teaching? And so Dim Splendor says, what does he say? He says, he usually says, Bajan says, I have an expression which contains 100 flavors. And Yao Shan says, salty tastes salty and bland tastes bland. What is neither salty or bland is the right flavor.

[28:51]

is the expression that has 100 flavors. And Dim Splendor was speechless. Then later, he kept asking him, then later he said, what do you do with birth and death right in front of you? The master answered, there is no birth and death right in front of me. And Yao Shan said, how long did you study with Baijiang? And Dibs Blander said, 20 years. And Yarshan said, you studied with Bajang for 20 years, and you still have not got rid of your commonness? Now, commonness is also a compliment. Anyway, he hasn't got it. So then he asked him again. We understand now, but we have the advantage of...

[29:53]

1200 years of history to figure out how cool he was. So then he asked him again, what dharma does brother by high teach? And Dim Splendor says, sometimes he says, look beyond the three statements and understand beyond the six propositions. And Yao Shan said, that doesn't have the remotest connection with it. Then again, Yao Shan asked Dim Splendor, what dharma does brother high teach? And then, what's his name? Dim Splendor says, Once he came into the hall to give a talk, and all the monks were standing in rows. He suddenly took his staff and started swinging it around, dispersing the crowd. As they ran out, he yelled to them, Monks! They turned around. He said, What is it? Yao Shan said, why didn't you say this before?

[31:01]

He said, now, thanks to you, I understand, Brother Hai. At that, Dim Splendor woke up. And this guy is one of our ancestors. He's like, It took a lot to get this guy to wake up, and these two hens worked on him for many years. And you may say, boy, that was a hard worker. He was a tough case. But also remember that he was there the whole time, pecking back. If he had left, they never would have finished. So you've got to also put yourself in situations. So in a way, you could say, well, they were great teachers, but in a way, the reason why they were great teachers is because even difficult cases hung in there with them. So this guy who had such this hard time and had, you know, such great opportunities and couldn't capitalize on them, so to speak, or couldn't appreciate them, he still hung in there and kept coming back again and again, you know, again and again, again and again, again and again, year after year after year.

[32:24]

And finally, he made these people into successful teachers. And they made him into a successful student. And it's just by this pecking back and forth, which is simple but not easy, not easy. Unsuccessful, unsuccessful, and still stuck in the world, peck after peck after peck, year after year after year. Yes? I wonder if that's the moment when the student becomes the master and he realizes that he, through his picture, creates an opportunity for the master. That's right. We say that it's mutual inheritance, mutual transmission. The student makes the teacher into a teacher. Before there's a student, the teacher's not a teacher. An unsuccessful teacher isn't really a teacher. Before your student learns something, you haven't taught. So the teacher transmits back to the, the student transmits back to the teacher.

[33:31]

The student creates the teacher. It goes in both directions at once. Of who? Sages. You want me to tell you about it? Why don't you tell me? Thank you. Are you doing it too? Huh? She stopped. She started. It's spreading. Now it's over here. No, it's over there. Somebody should get control of this laughter.

[34:33]

Yes? How important do you think it is to do a breathing yoga in connection with meditation? How important is it? Yes. It is... unavoidable. How important is what's unavoidable? That's like saying, how important is life? Do you want to ask more questions, or was that too short? What sort of life has? Well, ask it again. Maybe I won't. Zazen does focus on the breath.

[35:38]

However, there isn't any kind of obvious body movement or postures that go with it. You mean you don't consider the upright sitting cross-legged as a posture? Well, it doesn't change. It changes, but not in the way I'm thinking. It changes, but not in the way you're thinking. It changes. I mean, the person may make my new changes when they're sitting. Yes. I'm thinking of more gross kind of changes. You mean like this? Yeah. You mean you're thinking of a movement? Or a movement or a posture that's held. with breathing? Well, you see, part of maybe the confusion here is that I think that the posture of sitting is constantly changing.

[36:45]

Every moment it changes into the next posture of sitting. We also do walking meditation, which then people think, with the mind that thinks in terms of this and that, they think there's movement. But actually, each posture is still. So we also cut vegetables and work in the garden. All these are yogic practices. But the central one is this position that the Buddha was sitting in when awakened. That's our central sort of ritual form is the sitting posture. But if you study that sitting posture thoroughly, you realize that the sitting posture is not... your idea of sitting posture. It's like, I look, or we look at the sitting posture from inside the egg, and it's like looking at Mount Everest from some particular vantage point and thinking that that's Mount Everest, what you see there.

[37:50]

You see this big mountain there, you know? Think, that's Mount Everest. Well, it's right in a sense, but get up in Mount Everest and it won't look like that anymore. You know? Mount Everest would just simply be freezing. Or just, it would simply be terror, or death, or just whiteness, you know. It'll be totally different Mount Everest when you're up in the snow than it is when you're looking at it from down below. In other words, if you work with Mount Everest for, with your whole heart for some period of time, it soon will, you'll be embarrassed by what you thought Mount Everest was when you're standing there looking at it from the bottom. Or even flying over and looking down from an airplane, You know, whatever it is, no matter what you see, it's always just a little circle of water in the ocean. And the sitting posture is not what we think it is. It includes everything. You could also choose some yogic posture, any one you want, and just pick that one and have that be it, if you wanted to.

[38:54]

And if you did that practice thoroughly, you would realize that practice included sitting postures. So... We just choose that posture partly because that's the posture that all the Buddhas have sat in. Whereas they haven't all sat in some of the yogic postures that you can think of. But their sitting posture includes all other yogic practices. And all of the yogic practices include the sitting posture. And if somebody did any yogic practice completely, they would realize that sitting was included. Because anything you do completely you will realize it's not that. It's everything. And Zen students, a lot of Zen students practice yoga and stuff like that. Question is, when they practice yoga or when they practice sitting practice, which mind are they holding on to?

[39:55]

Are they holding on to a mind which thinks that sitting practice is one thing and other things are other things? Probably. Can they drop that mind? If they can, then they'll realize that there is no such thing as, in actual Zazen practice, there's no such thing as sitting and something else. There's no such thing as something else from our sitting. There's nothing else but our sitting. But that's the case you will realize in anything you choose, you'll realize at the point of the completion of it, at the thoroughness of it, you'll realize there is no other thing. There is not anything else, including there's not this. In other words, the sitting posture and the breathing practice are in order to free us from our mind, our narrow views. Yes. Yes. Are you saying that we're living in a continually dissolving universe that's like a kaleidoscope?

[41:02]

Am I saying that? I'm saying that everything's changing, but I don't know if it's a kaleidoscope. Well, I'm trying to give a visual image to the continually dissolving and never the same. which is if you're really in that sitting posture, that yoga posture, it becomes something else that you hadn't thought of or known because you weren't completely in it before. It would seem to me that it would just be continually dissolving universe wherever you are. Well, you say that it would seem to you. Yeah. And I would just say that just tell me about the way it is for you rather than... I'm not asking you to, like, get into what it would seem to be like.

[42:09]

I'm saying, let's just work with how it seems to you to be now. Now, if it seems, if it actually seems like you're not, if it actually is for you that's a kaleidoscope, then I would say, okay, fine. Kaleidoscope's probably not the best. It probably would be... For me, it's continually dissolving. That's the way it is for you? Yeah. Well, good. I don't know if it's good. Come on. You may not know if it's good. I just said it was good, that's all. That's just me talking. That's bad. No. That's real. You didn't know if it was good, but you're sure it wasn't bad. I know it's real, so it's neither good nor good. And that's really bad. No, it's neither good nor bad. Yes? Way young in the others living, 1200 years ago, more or less?

[43:13]

Yeah. Is it already called the Soto Critiction at this point? Um... Uh... It's not called the Soto tradition until a lot later. These people weren't calling themselves anything at that time. But looking back, we call them all kinds of bad names. Like this school and that school. But they had dropped the mind which makes schools. That's why it's interesting. What does your school expound? It's fine. What school is this? It's fine. What school is that? It's fine. These people were happy. And they really appreciated everything. They appreciated every living being. And every living being that came to see them, they felt like this person, whatever school they're coming from, is saying, peck, mommy, peck. What is it, dear? Peck. And that's how they were.

[44:14]

And then later we said, oh, those people, that's the beginning of the Soto school. So they do say that about these people. They are the founders of the Soto School. Quiet? Happy? Yes? I recently met some people who are involved with, I guess, what they call the true Buddhism of the Lotus Sept. Yes, yes. So I went to a couple of gatherings that they had where they were chanting the Lotus Sutra. Yes. And I noticed afterwards when they, we all introduced ourselves, you know, since I was a new comer tutor, that they were all very sort of, it seemed to me that their attitude was really skeptical about Zen. Yes. And they, what I did notice was that all of them

[45:20]

I wasn't trying to say much about Zen because I don't really know that much about Zen. Nobody else does either. Well, that's what I figured. That's why you like the Zen school. I don't know. But I noticed that they were all trying to convince me that if you really get into this true Buddhism, that all you'll need to do is chant and then you won't need Tazen. And I was really kind of nonplussed by that attitude. What's your response? Could you hear what you said? Can you hear what I'm saying? Well, in a way, I think that they have the same teaching as we do, and that is just concentrate on one thing. But some people who concentrate on one thing, before they get to the limit of it, they think that this is not that.

[46:31]

They concentrate on one thing, but they don't concentrate on the one thing being to drop the mind that thinks in terms of this and that. But if you would take If you would just say, and you would give yourself to that entirely, okay? Once you take the part of you that thinks also that there's something other than this, see, part of your mind's going, and another part of your mind is being held back, and it's thinking, boy, this is really a good practice. And other practices aren't as good as this. That's why I'm doing this one. You're still holding back. You're still sort of sitting in the driver's seat and saying, okay, do this practice of chanting the name of the Lotus Sutra, and we're just going to keep watching out to make sure it's okay. In between, you're not... In other words, a lot of your thoughts are not chanting the name of the Lotus Sutra. A lot of your thoughts are thinking, well, who is this turkey from the Zen school? What's she talking about? That's not very good.

[47:33]

That's not very good. That's not... Listen to the difference. That's not very good. I'm skeptical about this. You should chant something like the Lotus Sutra. That isn't the same as... You hear the difference? There's a big difference. Those people are not doing their practice. I thought it was funny because... And if I was there, the Zen praise would beat them up. Well, I don't know. I thought, I don't want to pick these people up verbally or any other way. But I just, I sat there and I thought, I said, well, that's fine. And I just sat there and went, and it felt good. It feels good. Really good. And then what didn't feel good later was people going, you don't need that. And I just kind of... Well, it's true, you don't need that zazen. There is no zazen other than namo myoho ringe kyo. There's not like namo myoho ringe kyo and zazen.

[48:33]

There's not such a thing. There's just, you know, microphone. There's not another thing called zazen in addition to the microphone. There's just microphone.

[48:43]

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