I feel how heavy this is. It's delicious. It's like it has lemon in it. You'll be so much heavier after you eat it. You'll be grounded. You won't have to worry about your feet going off the ground. Oh, it has a plate under it. Oh, it's light. I don't believe. Thank you. There's a seat up here. Anybody wants to sit here? I'm sorry. I read in the paper this morning that the book said something that Buddhists were becoming indifferent.

[01:23]

And I wonder how you would address that or what would you say about that in terms of trying to present your point of view? What would you say? The only thing that comes to mind for me would be that my mind is changing all the time. And that to attach yourself to anything wouldn't really bring any great light or any understanding. Yeah, that was the only thing that came to mind for me. This is a good muffin. Well, I'm going to write a letter to the Pope because of our article last week. And I got the perfect sutra to send to him.

[02:28]

It's called the Three Vedas Sutra, where the Buddhist talks to two Brahmins, theists, on the path to God and beyond that. And also Father Hans said, well, the Buddhist realize God and then we go beyond it. So I'm not going to pick on him for that. That was very kind. He said that silence is not negative. But I don't want to... Red, can I ask you a question? Uh, I went up to John Torrance and told him I had a few Zen experiences that teachers said were some awakening. But I was asking him for instruction on how to work on the Mukon, but somehow he thought I was trying to impress him, which I really wasn't, not to my conscious knowledge, but I was just trying to let him know I had some kind of a change of mind and I wanted to learn how to work on Mukon. So the reason I'm telling you that was Well, he said, I'm not going to accept your understanding. And I said, well, I'm not going to accept yours either.

[03:29]

But I still think you'd be a good teacher. The reason I'm talking to you is I realized all the time I've been coming here, I wasn't working on the koan consciously. And I was wondering if you would say a few words like you did today, more specifically about how to work on a koan. Mu. Mu. What is Mu? John Torrance said it's the Dharmakaya koan. The Dharmakaya call. I thought I had some understanding and realization, but I don't. But I still feel good, though. I kind of feel like I went to Pali and nothing came out, but it was okay. You know what I mean? But I'll tell you, once you have this experience of sanity, the teacher can't tell you anything. Maybe I'm totally nuts, but anyway. I know something, I realized some sanity when I had these experiences and I became less of an ego. I have more of an ungraspable something.

[04:30]

There was something clear to what. But... Anyway, I'm going to move up there and study with him for a couple years because I respect Yasutani Roshi and Robert Aiken and Tantar. That lineage was good for me because I studied with Philip Kaplow. So in June I'm moving up, but I wanted to thank you for all the friendliness you've shown me over the years. But I didn't realize how important that koan straining was, and when I came here, I didn't continue with it, so that's what I'm going to do now. Okay, good luck. Yes? I thought your topic today was insanely attractive, like so compelling. And I know that we're going to talk more about it today, specifically what kind of hooks me, and that I feel like I'm just starting to think about what I want, and have more to think about it with.

[05:32]

This whole thing about right and wrong, and I could look in and out of what you were saying, and then my opinion about it all would scream. Well, what about the Buddha's precepts? They're not right, they're short. I know the answer is no, they're not right, because I could hear it for a few seconds. But I don't know how to do anything with what I saw, I thought. You want me to do more of myself? Of course, absolutely, of course. It seems like we do need to live as though some things are good and some are bad, on a practical level. Now I'm arguing with myself about that. Good. Sounds like, sounds like that's good. Are there more seats up here? There's a seat over here. Is that seat, is that seat there? There's a piano seat here.

[06:32]

There's a piano seat here when you want to come in? Why? I think, you know, more people are going to come in, so it would be good if more people came in, because they're going to be jammed up at the back there. There's a seat here. I'm coming around. Okay. Yeah, let's open windows and stuff. It's going to run out of oxygen pretty soon.

[07:33]

Could you people move over that way a little bit? Some of those people go over there in that corner. Is that okay? Go over there. Because I think people are still downstairs. They're going to start drifting up here and squishing into the back. What's your name? Tracy. Have we met before? No. Okay, so Tracy asked a question that's kind of like, you know, what is it? She heard about this realm, this realm of where, you know, the realm beyond good and bad right and wrong, the realm beyond, as we say, putting a head on top of your head and cutting your head off.

[09:08]

Those are two extremes. So the story we're studying in our koan class here is, the teacher says, if you approve of this, that's putting a head on top of your head. If you disapprove of this, that's cutting your head off to seek life. So... You know, like, for example, and Tracy said, what about the Buddhist precepts? My proposal to you is that Buddhist precepts emerge from the mind which doesn't cling to self-righteousness or nihilism. The mind which doesn't say, this is right or wrong. One realm is right and wrong. The other realm is, there's no such thing as right and wrong. So there's one realm where there's right and wrong. That's the usual world. And then some people try to get out of that world and go to a nihilistic world where they said, you know, right and wrong are relative, so there really isn't any right and wrong.

[10:14]

Those are two things we can do with our mind. The precepts don't come from the world of right and wrong. They don't come from the world of, you know, there is no right and wrong. They don't come from either of those worlds. Those worlds are both from the mind, our mind. The precepts come from the way things actually are. And the way things actually are, are that those two worlds can happen, but the very fact that they happen that way is exactly why they don't even happen. Those worlds cannot be grasped And if you grasp them, you will suffer appropriately, very lawfully. The precepts emerge from not even one of those worlds, but the lawfulness, the truth of the way those worlds operate, is where the precepts come.

[11:16]

What I'm talking about is Buddhist precepts. Doesn't everybody who thinks something is right or wrong say about it what you just said about it? Pardon? Doesn't everybody that says what? Doesn't everybody who's in a camp call, this is right, this is wrong, wouldn't they defend what they said exactly the way you just defended the precepts? Am I defending the precepts? What did I do to defend the precepts? You said they're really the truth. I did? Don't let between here and there, Hans Bergens and I. So yeah, whatever I say, whatever I say, you're going to transfer into your system. So if I speak, if I was able to speak beyond, if I was able to speak from a place beyond good and bad, right and wrong, approval and disapproval, if my words emerge from that, you don't have to take them on that level. You can always convert them back into the world of right and wrong. I can't stop you from that.

[12:18]

No matter what I say, you'll be able to do that. My vow is to enter the mind which has no abode. And that means it's not believing this is true, it's not believing this is not true. Those are two abodes. And it's not like trying to avoid the whole situation. The vow is to enter so thoroughly into the process of relativity that we burst out of it. To turn away from relative thinking of right and wrong, that's no good. To believe in right and wrong, that's no good. But to thoroughly study, thoroughly be with the relativity of right and wrong, you will transcend, you will be liberated from it. And you'll enter the world where you do not any longer cling to those very powerful mental muscles. But when we put aside this powerful mind we have of thinking in terms of right and wrong, when we put it aside, in fact we enter a world where we do not know what is right and wrong.

[13:30]

However, There's something about that world that makes us feel alive, not makes us feel alive, that is alive, that's more alive, and that seems true, but not true like this is true, but true like this is a truth beyond, better than what I usually think is true. Because what I think is true is just what I think is true. That's where Buddhist precepts come from, I say. They come from a mind which has no abode, a mind which is completely flexible, which adjusts to whatever is happening, and harmonizes with it, so that the actions come from everyone. Because, in fact, what's happening is our actions do come from everyone. Everyone helps us act. When we feel that all beings are helping us act, we don't know how to do that.

[14:40]

I don't know how to act on behalf of all beings, but when I feel that I am, even without saying that I am, it dawns on me that this is my life. The actions that come there, that are with that, that is an action. That's what we call right action. Right action means You have no idea. You're beyond any idea of right action. And yet, you understand that everyone helps you act. Not just everyone, but every raindrop. And you don't just think that. You don't just go around and think, all the raindrops are helping me act. You put aside that thought that all the raindrops are helping you act, and you realize that they are. It's not any longer you Realizing it. You are the realization of that. So, we say, you know, I can say, you are practicing Zazen. You are practicing Zen meditation.

[15:44]

But I don't mean that you do a thing called meditation. I mean you, what you are, is the practice of meditation. And what you are is not something that's over here doing something And as soon as you enter that world, the mind which can calculate, which can measure, may act up and say, wait a minute, have I been left behind? Have I been abandoned? And may sort of pull you back into the realm of where you can do things. You can feel that jerk. You can tell the difference between being in a world where everything's balanced and spacious and you can't and you have no personal power, but that your personal power is given to you. It's a difference between choosing, the world of choosing, and the world of being chosen.

[16:47]

In the realm beyond good and bad, you are the chosen one. In the realm beyond good and bad, you have no alternatives. So, It sounds like there's an alternative world where there's no alternatives. This world, we think we have alternatives, therefore we complain. When you know you have no alternatives, you stop complaining. Because you know you have been chosen to do this job. You know each of you is chosen to do your thing right here. And you have no alternatives. and you can't complain. You can't bring yourself to complain. You feel that you've been chosen to be like this by everything. Yes? Did you say that whomever we are associated with, we are a part of that?

[17:54]

Did I say whoever we're associated with, we're a part of that? Whomever we are around, that is what makes us what we are. I don't know if I said that, but I think that's a good meditation. I wish I could know what you were saying, because I was thinking that maybe if the people that you chose to be around that had kind thoughts are chose their life to be a certain way that was in kindness and thoughtfulness, that would influence your world. So are you actually saying that whomever you are is whomever you are in spite of everything around, but you are a part of everything around? Well, you know, I really couldn't follow what you just said.

[19:01]

Could you kind of like make that into like a more concentrated question? I guess, maybe I can't say it clearly because when we were talking I didn't understand it clearly. Well, say something that you can say clearly. Well, you sitting there, sometimes it's hard. I'll leak. But it doesn't change. That... Did I hear you wrongly in saying that everything you're around, whether it's the rain or whomever it is that we're associated with, is the reflection of who we are and how we think, or are we that way whether we're around those people or not?

[20:11]

You're that way all the time. Wherever you are, everything you see is a reflection of yourself. So if you were in a different space and people, you would be somebody else? I mean, no. Who you're with has an effect on you. And in order to protect yourself from the effect, you put your hands up in front of your face and blind yourself so you don't have to see what they are. And then you look back into yourself to take a guess at what they are. We always blind ourselves. We have to blind ourselves to what's happening because our mind that sees things and thinks of things will blow out if it actually saw what's out there. If you looked at one person and let her in, your conceivable equipment would just blow out.

[21:12]

So your conceiving equipment says, you know, Don't look, you know, this is enough. I got the idea. Something's out there. That's enough. Now, just a second. I'm going to check to see what it is. And you look into yourself and then you sort of say, well, you know, it's this. And then that's what you think it is. But it's not necessarily. Pardon? But it's not necessarily. It's not necessarily what? What it is. No, no, no. No, no, no. It's necessarily, mostly, you. It's a little bit not you because, in fact, you were scared into or forced to resort to something about yourself to come up with what that was. Something happened. There is something happening besides you. But in response to what's happening, we always go back to ourselves to come up with what it is.

[22:14]

And then we say, that's it. This is our normal way. If you're unwilling to accept that, that's called nihilism. But then, on the other hand, if you think it's true, in other words, if you accept that, you no longer are self-righteous. Because you realize that what you're doing is you're just reaching inside yourself and coming up with what's right. And it's got 99.9% or a very high percentage to do with basically which of the possible answers you come up with by looking into yourself and a little bit to do with what's going on out there. And then people say, well, what about blah? In other words, they go to a place in themselves where they're even more sure they're right and say, well, isn't this right? And when you go to this place where you're even more sure you're right, you're just basically getting more entrenched in believing in your own imagination, which is even more a better example of the same thing.

[23:33]

And then if you push on that, and if you push on that, the person will be pushed further and further into a deeper and deeper place where they won't let go. which is good, to get to that place and to feel, because that's the place where you can see this is the source of evil, this holding, this basic place where you will not let go of what you think is right and you will not adjust anymore to what little bit you're letting up. Pretty soon you won't let anything up from out there. That's why it's important to develop relationships with somebody who you're willing to to let a little bit in, even under situations of duress. This is called, I don't know what you call it, you call it a teacher. Somebody who you'll give a window of opportunity to, so they can wave to you and say, Hello!

[24:35]

And then when you convert that into, you know, yes, you're right, when they say, you take, somehow you, you just keep listening, you know, and they keep trying, many, they keep trying all these skillful ways to try to get across to you that you're holding. It's the holding that's the problem. Because, in fact, things, the world is not being held. The world is changing. It's not being held, it's not still, it's not fixed. There is goodness. And the world is good. It is good. The Buddha said the world's good. The world is awakening itself. Everything is liberated all the time. But we have fixed ideas. We're holding. We have attachments. So we think it's bad or good. And we hold to those again.

[25:37]

There is a world beyond judgment, but it's not someplace else from the world of judgment. If you study how you judge, you don't have to stop judging. If you study how you judge, if you study how you judge thoroughly, you will become non-judgmental. You will become free of your judgment process. If you try not to judge, you're totally trapped in judgment. If you believe your judgments, you're normal. Normal humans believe their own judgments. If you hear about Buddhism or other spiritual practices and you try to stop that, you're the same as everybody else, but you're, you know, you're more difficult to help. Because you think, because you've cut your head off. It's better to have another head on top of your head than to have it cut off. Because when it's on top of your head, you can feel the burden. They feel the burden of self-righteousness.

[26:42]

When you cut your head off, it's harder to show you. It's harder to help you. But anyway, you can be helped. Even in nihilism, you can be helped. If you would open your heart to somebody and let them express themselves and try to understand what you think is happening. Is this holding on to one of the defenses of the ego that you're speaking of? If you can say defenses of the ego, it just is ego. Ego is holding on. Ego is saying, this goes to here and stops. It's holding to here, to this. Ego is another way to say, this is so. Ego is approval. And then, of course, it's disapproval. That's ego. Yes? I, for the last couple of years, I've had a lot of tragedy in my life.

[27:48]

And I feel like I just woke up. Yes. In the sense of now I can look back and when all the tragedy was going on, I was thinking to myself, well... The world must be bad. I mean, how could this have happened? You know, I just felt so much pain, and not only mine, but other people's as well. And... was clinging on to the world must be bad, or the world has such great suffering, I don't know how I can live in this world. And the waking up part for me happened for a number of reasons, but somewhat spontaneously as well. Now I see the beauty in what is, but seeing that beauty has made me like fall in love again, you know, with life. And then when I try to apply that to what you're saying, I'm like, oh my God, I'm clutching

[28:52]

I really, you know, when you come around and say, okay, well now I see that things are just the way they are. There's pain, there's suffering, there's good, there's bad, there's grace in the world, there's all this kind of thing. And then to let yourself go in that, is that a type of attachment as well? Is what a type of attachment? In understanding that. that I guess I feel like I'm celebrating my understanding that without judgment brings joy. When you're free of judgment, you're definitely joyful. Yes. What's your next question? well it just seems like it goes around and around what goes around and around?

[30:01]

so then you have joy but you don't want to get attached to that joy you have joy and you don't want to get attached to joy and the reason why you don't want to get attached to joy is because you're attached to joy right? If you're not attached to joy, you don't mind being attached to joy. If you're not attached to joy, you're not afraid of being attached to joy. And you know, if you're not attached to joy, you understand, spontaneously you understand that if you're attached to joy, you'll be miserable. You'll kill it and be thrown into hell if you're attached to joy. If you're not attached to joy, Understanding of what will happen to you if you're attached to joy comes with that. But when you're not attached, you don't mind being attached, and you don't mind going to hell.

[31:03]

In fact, so if you want to visit, but if somebody's in hell and you want to go visit them, you just attach to joy and then you go. But you can't really get into hell, you can't really be with people in hell unless you pay the price of getting in there. And the main way to get into hell is to hold on to joy. Or reject pain. If you reject hell, you go to hell too. But then you have to attach to pain. But if you're in joy, you don't have any pain available, so you don't have to attach to joy. That'll get you in too. But if you're not attached, you have no problem attaching. You can attach right and left. You're free. When you're free, you're free. You're free even to be in bondage. And so when it's good to be in bondage, you grab and you get thrown into a state. And you do that on purpose because it's good.

[32:12]

When you go see somebody, you know, and they're miserable, and you're not attached, and you're blissful and free, it might be good if you would just care a little bit and wish a little bit that they weren't suffering. And then you'll suffer too. And that might be good. It might be useful if you would suffer a little bit and your face would get a little contorted and squinched. Do you understand? That might be food for them. If you're too serene, that might not be as helpful as if you were going, oh, oh. That little bit of eh might be just what they need. But you don't have to sit there and think, now let's see, should I attach to this or should I attach to that? You know, so it'll be helpful to them. It will spontaneously happen. You don't have to think anymore because this is called the realm of not doing anything. You put aside doing things, but putting aside does not mean that you reject or abandon that stuff.

[33:19]

You just let go of doing things. Meantime, stuff just goes on all the time anyway. But you're not clinging to it. Then you enter the realm of non-doing. This is where all the Buddhas are. And they return from there successfully. In other words, they come back into the world and they do the appropriate goodness. But in order to come into the world, you have to take up an address. You can't help people without being someplace. And you can't get someplace without being that place rather than someplace else. Our free spirit, our free spirit has allowed each of us to become what we are, has brought us to where we are right now, and we're here out of compassion. This is our current gift we have to give to the world where we are. And we must be attached a little bit, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting in the place we are.

[34:25]

You have to be attached to take up your location and have your name and so on. But for that to be good, or I should say the goodness of that, is the place you came from where you weren't attached. So first of all, we have to release all attachment. And when we release all attachment, as proof of our detachment, as proof of our freedom, we naturally come back into bondage again, which causes suffering. And the way, exactly how that works, is our gift and our medicine to other beings, which then encourages, and they feel the medicine, and they're encouraged also to drop their attachments, to go free into the realm of simplicity, quiet, naturalness, inconceivability, and freedom. And when they're there, they're also not afraid to respond to the call from the world, and they come back too.

[35:31]

So we go round and round this way. Okay? Okay? marinating in that. You marinated in that? Nothing. How do you name the girl? Judy. Judy. We met in Montana, right? Right. I'm thinking about our talk last week, and this talk, and what I'm getting is that, and I'm going to say it so that... Yeah, it's good. Try to make it less fleeting. Compassion, life, the life force. Right action seem to all be the same thing.

[36:34]

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