It seems to me that this Heart Sutra is talking about things like form and feelings and perceptions and all kinds of mental formations and consciousness as being empty of inherent existence. That's what it seems like to me. How about you? And then the Heart Sutra says that form is emptiness and emptiness is form. And it seems to me that when it says form is emptiness, it means not just that form is empty of inherent existence. not just that form is empty of inherent existence, but its lack of inherent existence is the way it ultimately is.

[01:11]

So, for example, or I should say a different kind of example would be to say that Linda I don't know what, is empty or lacks being a man. But her lack of being a man is, I don't think, is really the ultimate way she is. It's no more ultimate than the fact that she lacks being a, what, grandmother? What? A giraffe. A giraffe, yeah. Those are just some things you lack, but those particular lacks are not the ultimate way she is. But there's one kind of lack or one kind of emptiness of inherent existence, which is the ultimate way she is.

[02:18]

It's the way she is that if she could see that, and if I could see it, or if she could see it or I could see it, that would purify our consciousness of all obstruction to perfect wisdom. So it's not just that we and everything we experience lacks inherent existence, which it does, but that that particular lack is the way we really are. and in particular the way we really are in terms of the way we really are vis-a-vis freedom from suffering. And then it says also that form is emptiness and also says emptiness is form. And again, I take that to mean when it says emptiness is form, that emptiness

[03:24]

can never be found apart from form. It doesn't quite mean in either case that emptiness is the same as form. But it also doesn't say that really, literally, emptiness is different from form. So it doesn't literally mean emptiness is form, and it doesn't literally mean form is emptiness. The relationship with emptiness transcends sameness and difference. The relationship between things, the relationship between conventional truths like colors and tastes and feelings and ideas, the relationship between those things and the ultimate truth, the ultimate way they are, the relationship between the way things conventionally are and the way they ultimately are, that relationship transcends sameness and difference.

[04:50]

These things are not completely the same, nor are they completely different. They can't be completely the same, and they can't be completely different. Otherwise, we'd either have big trouble or just silliness. So, for example, if the ultimate truth was the same as the way things conventionally appear, then people who saw conventional things would be seeing ultimate truth. and therefore everyone would have perfection of wisdom. If they were completely different, then if you looked at ultimate truth, it would have nothing to do with the way we misunderstand conventional things. Usually we think conventional things inherently exist, and because we think they inherently exist, we suffer. Right? Right? You hear about that before?

[05:55]

Because we think colors inherently exist, because they appear that way to us and we believe it, because of that we suffer, we are miserable based on that. That's where our real unhappiness comes and all the bad things that people do are based on that misconception. Okay? That's how deluded people see things. And in order to become free of the delusion, we have to see that they're not that way. We have to see another way they are. But if the other way they are was different from the way they are, it wouldn't apply to them. So we'd never be able to get over our delusions. So that would be the bad side of form and emptiness being different. And the silly side of them being the same is that obviously not everybody is completely, you know, perfectly wise just by seeing something.

[06:58]

So they're not completely the same. And there's other examples of how that doesn't make sense. But I just would suggest to you that those teachings which go into detail about how form is not really the same as emptiness and it's not really different. However it is, you know, terminologically really different. So form and emptiness are mutually exclusive and contradictory in the sense that nothing can be both form and emptiness. Nothing can be both form and emptiness. So there's not something like a flower that's form and emptiness. Or there's not something that really is the flower and emptiness.

[08:10]

Form and emptiness aren't like two sides of one thing. They're not two sides of one thing. But, and they contradict each other. There's nothing that's both a lack of inherent existence and a form. There's nothing that's a feeling and a lack of inherent existence. There's nothing which is both of those things. Those are two different things. But they're not completely different. Those are two contradictory things. However, even though they mutually contradict each other, and nothing can be both a form or a feeling in an emptiness, they abide together. They can never be separated. One cannot exist without the other.

[09:15]

So there are two things that abide together And they're contradictory. And again, as I mentioned last night at Green Gulch, they have a relationship which can be called an identity. They're not synonyms. They're an identity. They are conceptually different, but they abide together. They're conceptually different. But if one is absent, the other is absent. And they also have a relationship, a causal relationship, or a relationship in terms of arising, in that emptiness does not arise without form.

[10:19]

The lack of inherent existence isn't something, some great ultimate truth that's floating around in the universe somewhere waiting to land on some color or some feeling or some person or some mountain or waiting to get a ride on an eagle. If the forms and feelings and other things are absent so is emptiness. But as soon as one of those things rises then that is the condition for emptiness. So there's this unity in being and contradiction conceptually. So they have this very deep relationship.

[11:22]

It's very difficult to understand. How could two things that are contradictory always be together? And we'd like to stick them on some landing pad, wouldn't we? Have something that they're both about, that they both reside in, but they actually live together with no basis. And one of them is that the other one doesn't have a basis. But the one that's the baselessness of the other is in a sense based on the other, which has no base. This is our last meeting of this series, and I just give the expression for your information, this year was dedicated by me.

[13:00]

I dedicated myself. I was dedicated myself to the study and practice of wisdom teachings, wisdom meditations this year. And last year, mostly emphasizing what we call samadhi practices, which are sometimes integrated with wisdom practices and sometimes not. And so I'm starting to look, and I'm going to go to Tassajara this fall for three months, so I won't be around Berkeley this fall. Probably I won't. I'll probably be in the mountains. And I guess I'll probably continue studying the wisdom teachings, different kinds of wisdom teachings, and I would guess that probably next year such will continue. So I leave you with this start on the

[14:05]

and other wisdom teachings from, like I didn't mention to you just now, but my discussion with you about how emptiness and form aren't really different and aren't really the same. The Heart Sutra doesn't literally say that, but another sutra which I've talked about this year, the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra, does talk about that. It has a whole chapter talking about the different ways can't be completely different and can't be completely the same. They can be a little bit the same, a little bit different, but not really. They're really the same in the sense that they abide together and they're different in the sense that I just mentioned, that they're contradictory in a number of different ways. they're contradictory in terms of the, you know, when you abandon one, you abandon the other.

[15:21]

Or when you have one, you have to abandon the other, I should say. So if something's formed, it can't be an emptiness. So they're not the same, but but they can't be completely different because they abide together. But even though they abide together, they can't be completely the same because they contradict each other. So working these things is from another sutra about the relationship between forms and feelings and emotions and emptiness. So I will continue next year probably some dimension of the Buddha's wisdom teachings. And now might be a good time for you to tell me what you've learned these few weeks here, or so far this year. Yes?

[16:25]

Well, let's see, one thing you could You could keep studying the Heart Sutra and any kind of commentaries you can find in the Heart Sutra. And if you want a reading list on the Heart Sutra, you can contact my assistant at Green Gulch. You could also get a reading list on this other sutra I just mentioned. There's three English translations of it and a number of commentaries on it. Can you say the name of that? Samdhi Nirmocana, which means unraveling the thought. It's a sutra that sort of like unravels Buddha's thinking, tells you about what Buddha's thinking when Buddha's teaching. So Buddha sometimes teaches us one way one day and another way another day.

[17:31]

But he always has in mind the same thing. It's just that sometimes he doesn't tell the whole story because he doesn't think it's appropriate for the audience. So it explains, you know, it talks about how he at one point teaches this way and another point teaches that way. One of the basic principles of that sutra is that, and other sutras too, is that if you teach emptiness to some people, if you teach it a certain way, they will start to think that emptiness means that things don't exist at all. So then they will think, for example, the thing you most want to be careful of is that people don't hear teachings of selflessness or lack of inherent existence, which would apply also, you know, scarily, frighteningly, it would apply to ethics.

[18:33]

Buddhas have no inherent existence. Living beings have no inherent existence. Suffering has no inherent existence. So you might say, well, then it doesn't matter if I cause suffering because it doesn't really have any independent existence. In other words, you might think, well, it doesn't really exist at all. So what difference does it make if I'm cruel to people? In other words, if you hear that ethical practice lacks inherent existence, which it does, ultimately, then you might think, well, I guess it doesn't matter if I steal or not, if I lie or not, because it's all empty of inherent existence. So, you know, so what? If you would think that, then that teaching's not appropriate for you. You have to be able to continue to care very much that you don't hurt people Even though, of course, as you may have noticed, it's rather difficult to avoid it.

[19:38]

Still, even though you can't avoid hurting people, and you do, in a sense, or since you can't avoid being involved in the way people get hurt, it doesn't mean that doesn't matter. It does matter. And if you can hold that and hear the teachings of emptiness, then okay. But some teachings of emptiness are so deep that people lose their footing in ethics. So that's part of what that sutra talks about. But that sutra also introduces a very sophisticated presentation about emptiness, a refinement actually of what the Heart Sutra presents. And it even points out that the Heart Sutra in some ways, although it's very deep, it actually for some people is too deep. And they should not take it literally. The Heart Sutra, much of the Heart Sutra should not be taken literally. But some teachings can be taken literally, and so we have to understand.

[20:47]

So that's what the Heart Sutra is about. And there's other wisdom teachings, too, besides these ones. So if you contact my assistant, you can get reading lists if you'd like. So what did you learn during this class? Or what did you unlearn? Was anything startling? Any surprises? Anything you still don't understand that you'd like to ask about? Yes? I think what I've thought into more focus when I see things or when I'm thinking is to remind myself that Is that similar to saying when you see nouns, you think of them as verbs?

[21:55]

When you see verbs, what do you do? Think of them as verbs? Distill verbs? Yes. When you're looking at one scenery, and in this scenery there is a mountain, there is a river, there's an ocean.

[22:59]

It's, you know, our mental education is separating that. mountain, from ocean, from river. But they're existing as one, as a singular. So like looking at there is China, there's Tibet, there is Taiwan, but actually there's one. It's one world, one global. So this is our own mental apprehension that we're separating that. How that can modify to de-globalization? Press something that would be like this class to see that we need this together. Well.

[24:03]

If I could say that going along with the sense that Taiwan exists by itself, that Taiwan appears to exist as an island, that's the way Taiwan exists. It exists through apprehending it as Taiwan. It doesn't really exist that way without mental apprehension, but that's the way it does exist. It doesn't really exist that way, but that's the only way it exists. However, the way it really is, is that it doesn't really have that inherent existence that it appears to have. But again, I don't want to leave you with the impression that Taiwan lacking the appearance of being separate from the mainland. I don't want to leave you with the impression that that appearance of separation is actually separate from the fact that that's an illusion.

[25:20]

So somehow we have to learn to see the lack of inherent existence of Taiwan without trying to destroy the appearance of Taiwan as a separate powerful nation from another separate powerful nation. If we try to eliminate that apparent separation, We won't be actually understanding the fact that that separation is an illusion. It is an illusion, but if you eliminate it, that isn't in accord with understanding that it's an illusion. If it's an illusion, we don't have to do anything with the illusion. we just have to become free of believing the illusion.

[26:33]

But if you eliminate an illusion, you can still believe it. And believing an illusion, I think, hurts and is about as damaging as having it present. Eliminating it is eliminating it and believing it. having it present and believing it is pretty much the same thing. But eliminating it and believing in it, it's hard to stop believing it when it's eliminated. It's easier to stop believing it when it isn't eliminated. So while Taiwan continues to appear separate from China, While it appears to be, while the illusion is still functioning, we need to be able to look at the illusion and say, N-O. I don't go for that anymore.

[27:35]

I actually understand that that's an illusion. But you're seeing it as an illusion when it's in your face. Like a lot of people say, you know, if so-and-so is here, I'd be able to do such-and-such. Okay. Then we bring so-and-so in there and then they... They can't do what they said they could do. So we have to prove that we're free by having the thing that we're supposed to be free of right there in our face. And, fortunately, we do have these things right in our face. We have separate countries in our face And we have belief in the reality of the separation in our face. So we've got both of those. Now, without getting rid of the apparent separation, we need to actually train ourselves to stop believing in it while it's there.

[28:38]

But anyway, we've got part of it. We've got the separation appearing to be there. If you try to get away from it, you can do that for a while. Like in the form of meditation where you're practicing tranquility, in a sense, you take a little break from the illusion. You don't, however, take a break from your belief in the illusion if it was there. You just sort of close your eyes, in a sense, to the illusion. Or rather... you close your eyes to getting involved with the illusion. But in wisdom, you actually see things differently. And you apply that different vision to the things which appear the way they used to. So when you can do this, you would be able to be helpful.

[29:47]

People like this would be able to help with international tensions. It would be part of the healing process between people who live viewing certain other people as separate from them. There would be a healing way to do that. And the way the healing would happen would also lack an inherent existence too. We wouldn't be able to actually say how the healing could occur. like sometimes getting people together and having a good meal does more good than, you know, brainwashing them or arguing with them. Sometimes arguing with them works too. It depends. We don't know. But the best arguer will be one who doesn't believe in the inherent existence of their own position that they're arguing for.

[30:48]

Best arguer means best arguer in terms of teaching other people how to stop believing in the inherent existence of their argument so everybody stops believing in their illusions then there can be peace if we mean best arguer the one who wins the argument and the most powerful one then i guess you'd say well temporarily the current administration of the united states is the best argument because they're the most powerful. But we see, although they have a wonderful argument, since they're so powerful, they seem to be causing lots of suffering. It doesn't seem to be promoting peace, necessarily. It isn't clear that it's helping the world. But it is clear that there's power there. And it looks like there's belief in the inherent existence of their arguments. Looks like it. And most of the people who are opposing them, most of the people who are opposing them, also seem to believe in the inherent existence of their arguments.

[31:51]

But we can't be sure. Maybe actually some of these people don't really believe in the inherent existence. And they just do it as a show, you know, so that they can interact with the other people. We don't know. Just like now, you know, I mean, you may feel like I believe in the inherent existence of what I'm saying to you. And if I do, I'm telling you I got a problem. If I don't, I don't really have a problem. I don't really believe what I'm saying. I'm free. I'm free to keep talking from that position of freedom. And if it really does work to create freedom, you can see it for yourself somewhat. And you can tune into that channel, the freedom channel. Not by believing me, but maybe seeing that I'm free and I'm happy because I don't believe me. And if you didn't believe you, maybe you'd be free too.

[32:55]

And not believing you means you don't believe that you exist the way you appear to exist. Then you can take care of yourself and me and international crises. Somewhat. But even the Buddha couldn't stop all the wars even during his time. Still, he was, generally speaking, he seemed to be a peaceful influence on the subcontinent. And occasionally he could stop a fight. Sometimes he could stop an army, but sometimes he couldn't. But sometimes he could. Sometimes he could convert a murderer from their murderous trips. Sometimes he could, sometimes he couldn't. But if in this lifetime anybody can do something good, if anybody could help one crazy person become less crazy, that would be great.

[34:01]

And also, I mean, I should say, two crazy people. Yourself and one other person. That would be good. And Buddha liked He took care of himself and he took care of many other people, but he didn't take care of everybody. But the work has been transmitted to us to continue. But I have to look and see, do I believe things inherently exist? Do they appear to inherently exist? And do the teachings say that the way things appear is not the way they are? And can I be mindful of those teachings? To some extent. And when I'm mindful of it, does it change the way I am? Yes. And what about if I even saw this more deeply? Would that change things more? Seems like it probably would. Would you like to go deeper into that? Yes, I would. Do I notice that people who do not go along with

[35:05]

Or put it positive, do I notice that people who really believe what they think is true, do they seem like the most unhappy people around? Yes, they are. Are they the most frightened and cruel? Yes, they are. Are people who suspect that maybe they are somewhat deluded, are those people a little bit more gentle, a little bit more open, a little bit more Yes, they are. People who listen to that a lot and practice a lot, are they more gentle and kind and skillful? Seems like it. So, you know, I'm getting pretty convinced about this path of wisdom. But I'm also aware that it's got limits in terms of my own level and other people's. I don't really see that as a problem. I just see that's the human condition. We've got a lot of people who can become more wise, you know, so we're all helping each other become more wise, right? You're helping me become more wise, aren't you?

[36:11]

And I don't know if I'm helping you become more wise, but I'm trying to. So, have I... Have I been with you while you became more wise? Have you become more wise? Yes? Well, I think that, one, it seems like, looking at the past history of the Zen Center, it seems like people are as delusional, meditating as any other group of people. Sure. And not necessarily... Yes. Pardon? Yes, be that as it may. But tell me, can I ask you a question? Do you think that the average Zen Center member or meditator is somewhat aware that they're deluded? Do you think they're open to that possibility?

[37:21]

And in the... Huh? No? Aren't you open to that possibility? Yes. But you're the only one? Huh? Openness is not enough. I didn't say openness is enough. I just said don't you think they're open to that possibility? Huh? Well, you are. Aren't you? A fraction of the time. Yeah, so I'll change it. Do you think the people at Zen Center are ever open to the possibility that they're deluded? Yes. And are there other groups of people who are almost never open to the possibility? Yes. Yeah, so... That's one of the advantages there is that sometimes the people there are open. Even Fred is sometimes open, some of the time, to that he might be deluded. In other words, he is suspicious sometimes of what he thinks. Right?

[38:25]

Yes. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I think he's a little bit more suspicious after a couple decades of practice than he was before. Aren't you? A little bit more suspicious of yourself? Yeah. I think he is. He was not too suspicious about 20 years ago. He was suspicious enough to tell me that he wasn't. He just thought he'd try that on me and saying, you know, I just want you to know that actually other people should be suspicious, but I actually do not need to be suspicious. But he told me that just so I'd say, really? Are you kidding? And then gradually it has become a joke. But still, people at Zen Center are deluded, of course, but they're open to the feedback that they're deluded to some extent. Really, they are. I mention that to them quite frequently. And a lot of them actually, they don't like pack up and leave as soon as I say that. Whereas there's other sectors of the society where you broach the topic and it's all over.

[39:29]

You wind up with major body damage So anyway, that's the difference at Zen Center. You can bring this up with people. They are open to the possibility that they're deluded. We confess our delusion every morning, whereas some other people do not confess their delusion so far in their life. Other people are telling them they're deluded all the time, but they're not joining that program. But anyway, go on about the Zen Center. I'm giving you feedback as you've requested. I think that you've made the teaching clear, although logically it's very difficult for me to either accept it or see it. But one thing that I do like to think is that at times I do see that

[40:41]

I'm trying to interpret what you said, that in some ways these people in this room is giving birth to me as you are at this moment. Yes. I am to you. Yes. And that does, at times, change my thinking, which is usually the opposite of that, I guess. The original, I'm not sure where that is on that scale. Well, I don't know about a scale. I thought that was just two different ways. And one of the ways that you described it is, you know, when you do see it this one way, of all of us coming forth into your life and then you're born of that, that's enlightened vision. And the other one that you mentioned is delusion. However, I think it's important to remember that the other one, the one that's called delusion... It's called delusion. It's called quotes, delusion, unquotes.

[41:44]

It's not real that you're deluded. So it comes in quotes because it's about how you are carrying a self forward on the things. So it's about something that's not really happening. So it's called delusion. Whereas the other one's not in quotes. The enlightened vision's not in quotes. Because enlightenment is really the way you are. The way you really are is that, and the way I really am, is that I'm born in the advent of all things. That's enlightenment. But that's not in quotes. That really is enlightenment. And enlightenment is the way you really are. But when you fight that, which, you know, you can't really succeed at, but when you think you've succeeded at warding off enlightenment and getting yourself imposed on everything and suffering, that's called delusion and suffering.

[42:49]

So I'm glad you learned that. At least, I guess, sort of occasionally like Fred occasionally being open to the possibility that he's deluded. Sometimes. So are you all sometimes open to the possibility that you're deluded? Are you open to the possibility that what you believe to be true might not be? Then you've grown in wisdom a little, if you are. And you grow more when you get more convinced that the other version, the version of things the way you don't see them, the way the Buddha teaches, is actually true and the way you teach is actually something to, like, get over. Yes? I keep thinking about the middle way.

[43:54]

Yes, good. It's really about... For me, it seems so clear that I... I don't know if I speak wrong. It seems like it's really about living in a way between conventional reality and reality. Even though it sounds like you're equating conventional reality... Yeah, well, I appreciate that comment, that you were thinking that... He was thinking that maybe middle ways between conventional reality... and ultimate reality, okay? It's not between those two. It's the ultimate reality that's the middle way. Okay? So that's a good point to make towards the end of the class. Middle way is not halfway between conventional and ultimate. The middle way is the ultimate. The ultimate is the middle way. The ultimate is avoiding the extremes of existence and non-existence.

[44:55]

The conventional is not avoiding the extremes. The conventional takes the extremes. It's conventional to say this exists and that doesn't. It's conventional to say this is permanent and this is not there at all. This is permanent and this is totally annihilated. Conventional is things, you die and you're totally gone. or you live on. And then people do both, actually. Is it an extreme to, like, walk into a room and say, there's no, there are no selves here, and to really attach yourself to that belief that this ultimate reality is where there's no such thing as self, that you have an attachment? If you attach to that as a belief, then that would be making ultimate truth into a belief. But ultimate truth is not a belief. Ultimate truth is what frees you from your beliefs, from attaching to your beliefs.

[45:58]

Beliefs are conventional things, things that exist depending on mental apprehension. And even the ultimate... is also something that exists depending on the existence. The ultimate exists independent of mental apprehension too. So the ultimate is also empty of inherent existence. The ultimate doesn't have a self either. But if you come in with the ultimate and say there's no selves in this room and make that into a self, that's not the ultimate. That's the conventional, is to make the ultimate into a conventional. You can make the ultimate into conventional just by mentally apprehending it. Then it's a conventional version of the ultimate. It's not the ultimate. It's the existing ultimate, which it exists conventionally. It doesn't exist ultimately the way the conventional things really are. The middle way is the way birds and babies and lunch and death and birth are.

[47:05]

These are conventional things. Middle way is not between those and emptiness. There's nothing between those and emptiness. Okay? There's nothing between those. That's all there is. It's just conventionalities and their emptiness. There's nothing more than that. Now, when you say, what about a cell? Well, that's not really more because there's no such thing. What about inherent existence? Conventional things like people aren't inherent existences. They appear to be, but they're not. So there isn't something between conventional stuff or normal phenomena and ultimate things. Those two things account for everything. The conventional things and the ultimate things, that's everything. There's nothing more than that. The middle way is the ultimate way they are, and the ultimate way things are is things are the middle way.

[48:10]

Things, the way you are and the way I am, ultimately, is that we're middle, kind of middle people. We exist in a middle way, free of extremes. And our lack of inherent existence is free of extremes. is our freedom from extremes. You read my throat. Does that make sense? That was a nice question. Thank you. Yes. There's a new sutra open to me now. I was studying one, and now there's another one. But then I have a feeling that there's like underneath that there's many other layers that I don't fully understand, but that I have a new understanding right now. And also in my day-to-day life, as I've been thinking about this, I start this feeling that if I can study after this, understand emptiness, then I will be free from past and future thinking.

[49:27]

Entering situations with a fixed view of how I think things are. So that's come through. Yeah. Comforting, comforting possibility. Yes. This morning I was at Green Gulch and there was somebody that I called in and she googled me and I, she said, how are you? And I said, my usual living way. Oh, I'm struggling to keep my nose above water, which happens to be the truth of . And she said, well, I'm struggling to keep my nose . And struggling that she understood something. She didn't really understand me.

[50:31]

I told her to say that to you. She was, that's true. Contradicting you is the middle way. Contradicting you is the middle way. No kidding. So get with contradicting yourself and that'll help you meditate on emptiness. But again, contradicting yourself doesn't mean you trash yourself. You're still there to be contradicted. So, Fred's the middle way because he contradicts you, but you're the middle way because you contradict Fred.

[51:32]

But you have to both be there in order to find the middle way. The middle way is not either one of you. It's the way you contradict each other. Cool, huh? Huh? Right, so middle way's always there. But it's hard to appreciate it sometimes, right in the middle of the contradictions. Very dynamic, very, you know, very dynamic. So we have to be kind of upbeat about all this contradiction and... all this mutual exclusion because we're actually together and we can't separate. So all of you are, in a sense, my lack of inherent existence. Right? Do you understand?

[52:34]

Do I understand? I'm your lack of inherent existence. Here I am, I. I'm a contradiction to you. I exclude you. You exclude me. But we're together. It's like that. That's how we live together, you know, to practice understanding the relationship between existence and lack of inherent existence, conventional existence and lack of inherent existence. and understand inherent existence as something which is really totally non-existent. There's no such thing. But we imagine, we imagine that there is. We're funny creatures. We do that. And it's good to admit it as much as possible. Anytime you notice it, own to it. And then move on to the next time you do it.

[53:36]

Make it part of your life to admit that you have this normal, tendency of ignorance that's part of getting over it I try, actually, not to specialize in that. I only admit it. I look up on those layers of what your children are like. I could be, like, a graduate now, and I'm older than you, and you're weird, but that's what it is. So I probably trust that it will get clear

[54:40]

I think there's a good possibility that you'll get comfortable with it not being clear, and you also can get comfortable with this unsettling, startling aspect of the deep truths. They are somewhat startling or astonishing or shocking. They are. at different phases. And they're not consistently startling, otherwise the startle effect would be lost. They're startling and then they let you recover and then they startle you again. But that's normal. So it's okay to get used to that. And it's okay to understand that that's not a sign of pathology, that you're startled by this stuff. Yeah. Being startled at your startle is real, is actual startledness. Not being startled at your startle is kind of a low-quality startle.

[55:49]

But you don't have to be depressed about being startled. And you don't have to be proud about being startled. You can just sort of feel comforted in that you're startled like ancestors have been startled. It's not all startled. A startle is a normal thing to happen. A lot of people get startled, and the startling is not unstartling. It's sexual startling. It shakes us a little bit. It's kind of, in some ways, a good sign, usually. is a sign of life. For suffering people, it's actually a good sign. It's okay to shake up the empire of misery a little bit. We don't have to, like, hold it together and make sure, oh God, we've got to keep this suffering going a little longer. No, it's kind of... We have some room to shake this misery up.

[56:52]

It's okay. It might get worse. Yes, that's true. How much worse? The chances of it becoming worse, I don't know about that. I think the chances of it getting better or greater than it's going to get worse. A lot of people think this is the worst it's been for quite a while. Maybe. I think it'll get worse. But it definitely can get better. And one of the fastest ways it can get better is to, like, stop worrying about it getting worse. Then it gets better real fast when you stop worrying about it getting worse. In other words, you get, kind of feel like, yeah, mm-hmm. I would like, I'm up for working with this. This is like job security for Bodhisattva's situation. Yes.

[57:58]

Good. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Buddhism is not teaching you that you're all alone. Not teaching you that. Buddhism teaching that you think you're all alone. Buddhism teaching you that you, like most people, think they're all alone. That's the way it looks. It looks like, you know, Diego sitting there all by himself, all kind of isolated from everybody else. It's not true, but that's the way it looks to him and to me and to you. Buddhism says people see it that way and they suffer because they believe it.

[59:05]

But it's not really true. Actually he doesn't exist there on his own. He exists in dependence on things other than himself and especially he exists in dependence on past karma and mental apprehension. And he doesn't exist another way And that way that he doesn't exist in another way is the same as the way he does exist in that way. I appreciate you bringing up this discussion. I take that back. It's not that he doesn't exist in another way. He does exist in another way. But the fact that he doesn't exist in a way that doesn't depend on mental apprehension is the same as the way he does exist, independence and mental apprehension. That's the same. But he does exist in another way than he appears. And that other way he exists is called emptiness.

[60:07]

And that other way he exists abides together with the way he exists in this isolated way. Can you appreciate something? I appreciate your bringing up the mentioning karma in relationship to emptiness because that's where I get stuck. My tendency, when I consider emptiness, it's kind of like, for me, it's kind of like physics. It's kind of like the nature of things or I'm looking at something external to me and the way I study it. But I find it hard to apply to how I act in the world in a way that kind of keeps me from studying it.

[61:18]

Could you say something like that again, or even the same thing? Or let me see if I can say what you said. You're having trouble figuring out how you can study emptiness as you're moving in the world? So you want to know a way to study emptiness as you're moving in the world? And how we get entangled. Not understanding it, we act in a certain way, which... you know, it feels like we get entangled in habits and... That's right. Not understanding it, we suffer. And then in our suffering and continuing not to understand it, if we continue not to understand it in our suffering, then part of not understanding it is to think that You know, when a person doesn't understand emptiness, then the person thinks he exists inherently and he thinks that his activity is something he does by himself. Because human beings do have activity.

[62:28]

We have activity. We do function. We do. When we understand emptiness, we still understand that we function, but we just don't think we function independently. We see that our functioning is a dependent co-arising. And that because of that, because our functioning is a dependent core arising, it lacks inherent existence. And because we understand that it lacks inherent existence, we understand the way we function. So we're happy. When we don't understand it, we think our activity is something done by an independently existing person So we suffer and we do things based on that ignorance, which are unskillful, and perpetuate that ignorance and that suffering and more action based on the ignorance and the suffering. So if one finds oneself in that cycle, this is called normal daily life. So how do you practice emptiness in that situation? That's what you're having trouble seeing?

[63:30]

Yes. So how do you think you practice emptiness? Practicing what? What I just said, the thing I just described, you're not having trouble with. You're doing that very well, right? You're being ignorant, you're suffering, and you're acting on that suffering and that ignorance quite nicely. That's the way you're practicing all the time, pretty much. Okay, so you got that down. So how do you practice emptiness in that situation? That's what you don't see, right? Right. Okay, so now that you don't see that, do you have any guesses about how you practice emptiness in that situation? Relax. Relax with it, what's it? Whatever it is. Whatever it is, whatever that happens, relax with it. Okay, that's a good way to practice with this situation. That sets the stage for practicing emptiness. Does that make sense to everybody? Okay, what else?

[64:32]

And I think that's why it's harder to go deeper than... How about a little confession? You're nodding your head. You're nodding your head. Does that mean, yes, I want to do that? Yes. So what are you going to confess? Does it sound like I'm confessing already? Or? Well, to me it does, but why don't you tell me what you're going to confess, just to see if I got it straight, that you were confessing. It sounded like confession, but I don't know if you noticed it. I think that... What have you got to confess, Diego? Everyone's listening. Well, I think... I have many things to confess, but nothing is really coming up very clearly right now. Except maybe that very frequently, like almost all the time, I have the feeling that I'm not really practicing.

[65:56]

You want to confess that you have a feeling you're not really practicing? Yeah, very frequently. Okay. And so if you have a feeling you're not really practicing, what kind of activity do you have a feeling that you are involved in? By definition, what you just said is you're doing an activity called not practicing. And what does not practicing look like? You know, you can just refer to some standard formulas if you want to. Does it look like greed, hate, and delusion? Does it look like delusion? Is that what not practicing looks like, delusion? So we have this standard formula which you're familiar with called all my ancient twisted karma, all the things I've been doing based on greed, hate, and delusion.

[67:06]

That's a confession. So you confess your delusion and you confess that your activity has been based on a delusion. And you say it in general, but you also maybe notice that actually this isn't just general. I actually notice it throughout the day. And if you don't notice it, well, you can just do the formula And then maybe kind of say, oh, there's the actual stuff that I've been talking about in a formulaic way. I just noticed that I was actually kind of deluded on that account. For example, I thought I was really right and somebody else was really stupid. I thought I was superior to somebody. Yeah, I can see I'm kind of... There's some delusions in my mind. just like I heard about that some other people have, I got them right in my own mind and I can confess them now. So that's another way you can practice emptiness. Again, studying emptiness involves practicing compassion in the form of confession of our delusion.

[68:16]

So that's part of the way you practice emptiness is to notice your delusion. Part of the way you practice emptiness is to notice and confess that you do not believe in emptiness. that you think inherent existence. You believe in I-E. You do not believe in L-I-E. You do not believe in a lack of inherent existence. You're not really convinced of it. What you're convinced of is inherent existence. your own inherent existence, the inherent existence of your opinions, the inherent goodness of what you think is good. That's what you believe, and that's delusion, and that's what you confess. And that's part of practicing emptiness, is to admit that you are actually in the anti-emptiness group. Totally empty. You admit that and you do that. That's a part of emptiness practice is to admit, I don't really agree with emptiness.

[69:20]

I got a problem here. And this not believing in emptiness, I think, is related to my suffering because I believe I inherently exist and I'm worried about myself all the time. Poor little inherently existing me. I'm not worried about my dependently existing me. When I think about that one, I feel like, hey, cool. I don't have to do this all by myself. I'm being buoyed up by the entire universe. Wow. It's my inherently existing self that I'm scared about and I'm worried about. How can this thing keep, it has to keep going because it's inherently existing, but I have this feeling like it's going to break any minute. So you kind of, you know, you're getting these little hints that you're impermanent, but mostly you don't believe in permanence. And yet impermanence keeps knocking on the door. Hello, hello. Everything's going to get taken away pretty soon. Yeah, I know. So that's part of practicing emptiness is to admit your belief in conventional existence and admit that you haven't really been convinced of emptiness yet.

[70:26]

That's part of it. And this reminds you to think about emptiness and meditate on it. and get teachings about it, and be mindful of it, and then try to apply it, try to start to see, this person who I actually think inherently exists, I hear doesn't. But you kind of have to start with admitting that you think it does, and say, here we have a person who thinks he inherently exists, who's heard about teaching which contradicts that, and he's trying to become more mindful of that, but in the meantime he has to admit he's not very mindful of it. And by admitting that I'm not very mindful, I'm on a better ground to admit that I'm not very mindful, but I would like to be mindful. I'm not very mindful, but I'd like to be mindful. And I am mindful. Right now I am thinking about how I lack inherent existence. And that meditation can start working right away. But then you slip and you forget and then you go back to your old way and you admit that.

[71:31]

So you keep confessing that we keep slipping back into the habitual way. That's part of practicing emptiness. Part of practicing wisdom is to admit that you're not practicing wisdom. Part of practicing wisdom is to admit that you're just going along with your usual deluded view, which you have been going along with since you're born. You're not worse than other people and you're not better than other people. You're actually existing in dependence on them. You're born of them. And that's part of the meditation to open up to your lack of inherent existence. But we have to sort of like keep track that we're actually down here, you know, kind of not thinking about this all the time. That will be the basis upon which we resolve to think about it. So we're not thinking about the Heart Citra all the time, but sometimes we do. But when we're not, it's not a total waste of time because we can admit that we're not. And that's an opportunity for confession.

[72:35]

And that built a base for saying, okay, yeah, okay, this is an illusion that I'm entertaining here. of my inherent existence, and it's suffering. I can see it. There's some wisdom there. It's not the prajnaparamita, but it is prajna. It's not the perfection of wisdom which sees ultimate, but it is the one that sees that conventional existence is suffering, because the conventional existence involves believing the way things appear through mental imputation. So you can see. Study the First Noble Truths. This kind of grasping, which is the way things exist, is suffering. And the reason for the suffering is because of the grasping and the craving and the ignorance. And then there's a giving up this grasping.

[73:42]

So this is something about it. And you do this and you apply this to everything. Practicing emptiness means you apply this to everything. So that's one of the characteristics of emptiness practice is you apply this practice to everything. If you didn't apply it to everything, then you wouldn't really be listening to the teaching because the teaching says everything's empty. So everything you see, pleasant things and unpleasant things, you give the same treatment to. If you relax with them, you calm down. If you meditate on how they're empty, you develop wisdom. So in the midst of all of our difficulties of greed, hate and delusion and karma and all that, we can still start doing this fabulous practice of Buddha's wisdom right in the middle of that mess by listening to the teaching in the middle of this mess and applying it to every little ingredient, every little moment of this mess.

[74:47]

And it's hard to do that, but not impossible. It sure helps to be reminded on a regular basis. It sure helps to be reminded on a regular basis. It sure helps to be reminded on a regular basis. And so here we are. For seven weeks, we've been reminding ourselves on a regular basis. That's what this class is for, is we're to come here and remind ourselves on Tuesday nights and hopefully on the days in between that's what this is all about is to get together and remind ourselves and remind each other and that's part of and when you remind yourself part of the consequences of reminding yourself is that becomes a condition for reminding yourself again we can't we can't i can't by myself i'm not inherently existing person i can't myself get control of this practice machine and keep it turned on all the time and yet when it's on it's wonderful And when we appreciate when it's on, that becomes the conditions for it being on again.

[75:55]

So we're not proud that we can practice. We're grateful. And our gratitude for practice is part of the story of more practice. Because we do have to... Mindfulness, one of the meanings for mindfulness is remember. And we can't control it, but we can be grateful when we do remember. And when we remember, we usually say, oh yeah, remembering is good. And then we sometimes say, why can't I remember? How come I forget? That's kind of actually a waste of time to ask that question. Just more like, I'm glad I remembered. I'm glad I remembered, rather than, why can't I remember kind of makes you forget again. Get it? Why can't I remember? You just forgot. So that question makes you forget the other, but the one of, oh, it's so nice to remember. You're remembering. It's nice to remember. That means you're remembering right now and enjoying it. That's what it's like to remember it.

[76:59]

Rather than, why can't I do this more often? It's like, it's great that I can do it now. Wow. And again, thank you. And again, thank you. How come I can't do this more often? Get the picture? Give up that one. Even though you can't control it, give it up. Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think. Enjoy yourself while you're still in the pink. Why not? It's not going to hurt anybody if you enjoy yourself. Please do. And remember that you lack inherent existence. Like all your friends and me. And while you're at it, save the world. Which you will be able to do if you understand what I just said.

[78:00]

Just like Avalokiteshvara. When you see that you and everything are empty, all suffering will be relieved. And then everything changes and we have to start over again. with the next moment, next five skandhas, next five aggregates, and see they're empty and release suffering again. Because suffering is born every minute and can be liberated every minute, every second. And the bodhisattva says, hey, I'm up for that. I know this suffering is going to come again, and I'm into trying to liberate beings from this suffering through understanding ultimate truth. which doesn't put down conventional truth. Right? I think you learned that during this course, right? To understand the relationship is what saves the world. So thank you for your attention and good luck in your meditation practice.

[79:06]

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