Someone came up to me and asked me something about dependent co-arising, how do you see dependent co-arising, or something like that, is that what you said? I'm not sure if you can say anything, but somebody came up to me and said something about how do you see dependent co-arising, how does consciousness see dependent co-arising? And consciousness can't see dependent co-arising, because if you have five aggregates, one of them being consciousness or awareness, it can't look over and see dependent co-arising, because that wouldn't be dependent co-arising over there, because consciousness would be separate from it. When we see dependent co-arising, you see the dharma.

[01:01]

I say we see dependent co-arising, you see the dharma, but there isn't any we seeing dependent co-arising or you seeing the dharma. It's kind of like an ordinary way of talking. So you could say, when there is seeing of dependent co-arising, when there is vision of dependent co-arising, that vision of dependent co-arising is what we call right view or wisdom. When the view or the understanding of dependent co-arising is the understanding which is the same as the end of all craving, it's the same as the end of all outflows, it's the same as nirvana. The view of dependent co-arising is right view.

[02:09]

View of dependent co-arising is the end of outflows, because there can only be outflows when there is a view of a part of the situation. When the view is of the whole situation, there can't be any gain or loss and there can't be any craving, there isn't any craving. And this being upright is the same as this non-craving way of being. So being upright is the same as right view or right understanding, because when you have upright understanding you no longer lean in any direction, because you can't lean in any direction because a you or one is in the midst of totality, there's no place to go, because every place is here, there's nothing to get, everything is already here.

[03:18]

So, the third noble truth of cessation is the cessation of craving, cessation of outflows, and that's when there's a cease, an abandoning of all craving for the aggregates of clean. Which means that you don't see the aggregates of clean anymore, you see just the aggregates, but there's no clean, because the aggregates are un-clingable because they're interdependent. You can't get a hold of all of them, because there's nothing outside to get a hold of them, no one can grasp the five aggregates. And you don't see them either. And you can't see them. Consciousness can't see the five aggregates, because consciousness can never see itself. Nothing can see the five aggregates, and yet every experience is nothing more or less than

[04:27]

five aggregates, except in trances, you know, these high-level trances where there's no bodily ganda, you know, there's no physical sensation. And in the case of the four aggregates, but there's still nothing that sees the four aggregates. Yes? Well, I still would like to ask what is, let's say, the faculty of this vision? What is the faculty of the vision? What is the faculty of the vision? Dharma. The truth is the faculty of the vision. Maybe the word faculty is wrong. Yeah, well, you used it. What are you saying? I mean, is that like... Okay, now listen, just a second. No, no, no, no. You're looking for something to get a hold of the Dharma. Okay? You won't get it. If you get something to get a hold of the Dharma, you're back into the five aggregates

[05:30]

of cleaning again. Okay? Now go ahead and try again. But that's what I see you're trying to do. You're trying to get something that sees. The faculty, the thing that sees. There isn't a thing that sees. And why do you use metaphors like vision? Yeah, still, this is a communicative situation. Yes? That's why I use words like vision. Right. But that's also why I use words like faculty. Yeah, right. Like, I mean, I'm trying anyway. Today, of course, I'm trying to understand your teaching. And I'm telling you, to try to create a faculty on top of the five aggregates, by which the five aggregates are understood, is making a sixth aggregate, which you're not allowed to do. Like, for example... Let me just tell you, okay? You've got five aggregates. That's all there is in terms of experience. Right? What understands these five aggregates? What faculty understands the five aggregates?

[06:33]

The entirety of the five aggregates. But that's not something. That's what understands. It's something that's not any such thing. The reality of the five aggregates is the understanding of the five aggregates. But that's not an additional thing to the five aggregates. But... If we could have one of the five aggregates understand the five aggregates, that would be good enough for most people. So, like Miffin said, how does consciousness understand the dependent co-arising? I said, it can't. That would have been okay with her if I had just told her, how consciousness does it. But I couldn't, so I told her it can't. If I could tell you how I did it, then we would have a way. But we can't. Consciousness can't... understand how they're all interdependent. But there is understanding. And understanding of how they're interdependent is their interdependence.

[07:34]

And their interdependence is Dharma. And Dharma is the understanding of interdependence. Dharma is interdependence. Buddha is the understanding of what's happening. But Buddha is not something on top, looking down at what's happening. What Buddha is, is waking up from the dream that these five aggregates can be grasped. Or are being grasped. In other words, he's waking up from the dream of suffering. Go ahead, try again, Bernd. Well, I would like to ask, would it be permissible to speak of the five aggregates gaining consciousness about their working? Would it be permissible? You'd have to start a new religion. Is that heresy? No, it's just, it's heresy if you try to stay inside... We already got that. What you're doing is making up an idea about something

[08:39]

that's in addition to everything that's happening. Well, no, we're not making up ideas in addition to the ideas we're making up, though. That's right. So as long as you understand that, it's just more ideas. But they're not ideas which are actually something separate from the five aggregates. Because every idea you come up with just goes right into the fourth skanda, boom. Which is a fine place for it, that's where it's supposed to go. But it can't... It doesn't... It isn't actually in addition to the five aggregates, it's just one of them, part of one of them. And by looking at how it's part of one of them, you start to develop this understanding of the interdependence of the five aggregates. Meanwhile, while you're doing that, you notice that you keep trying to get a hold of something in the process.

[09:39]

This clinging is constantly going on in the process of trying to understand how clinging is impossible. Stopping clinging is very closely related to seeing that it's impossible. We will continue to cling until we can't do it anymore. Because we've got the habit of clinging. We have the ability, we have the faculty to cling. We have the faculty to imagine that five aggregates can exist separately. We have the faculty to dream that they can exist separately. We have that capacity. That's one of the five aggregates. Could we stop it? Have an alternative? An alternative? To clinging. Could we just stop it, if we have an alternative? No? No. Because we're so good at clinging, you think we're going to switch to something we're not good at? We won't switch. Nobody switches. If you feel that clinging is something, if you really feel that clinging is something, why wouldn't you switch?

[10:40]

That's not enough. It's not enough. Like babies, you know. Take a baby, okay? Here's your mom. Okay? Clinging to her is going to be suffering. There's nothing that won't be suffering. Which do you go for? Your mom or the alternative? The baby doesn't feel that suffering. The baby doesn't think. Oh, the baby doesn't think it's suffering. Oh, yes, it does maybe think it's suffering. The baby goes, the baby goes, you know? You put it, you take a baby, you know, put it, have it connect to its mother and start slapping it. What do you think it'll start doing? You think it'll let go of the mother and go someplace else? It won't. These little monkeys, you know, they don't do it on kids so much, but these little monkeys, you know, they have a choice of whether to be, you know, grab nothing or even something that doesn't have like a motherly surface on it that's just, you know, like this. They have a choice of grabbing something like this or grabbing something that feels just like their mom and gives them a shock.

[11:42]

What do they choose? They choose mom and they shock them and the more they shock them, the tighter they hold. The more pain you have, the more you tend to cling. Not the less you try to cling. The cling actually, what somebody pointed out to me, I think it was Berndt, maybe the reason why we create a substantial self is kind of like we feel justified since we're suffering. You know? We suffer because we create a substantial self and then when we're suffering, we say, well, at least I can have a substantial self. So it's both the source of it and kind of like because we're suffering, we feel justified. Suffering itself is not enough to let go because people suffer and they don't let go just because they're suffering and there are alternatives to suffering which we think of. What are the alternatives to suffering that we think of? Liberation. Oh, yeah. Well, that's not the one we think of. We think of liberation as we turn liberation into

[12:44]

one alternative to suffering is what do you call it? Thirst. Thirst is basically the alternative to suffering that we think of is thirst and craving. That's our alternative. It's also, again, the source. So when we're suffering, we think, well, let's go have some pleasure or the other one would be let's substantialize the self or the other one would be let's get rid of the self. Those are the three types of craving. Those are three types of craving are the source of suffering and when we try to look for alternative suffering, what do we think of as the alternative of suffering? What a coincidence. We think of the reason for suffering, the source of suffering. We go right back to it. Just like a baby clinging to mommy. It's suffering. To make it suffer more, what does it do? It clings to mommy more. So, it's not an alternative that we're attracted to. We would like to get away from suffering but the alternative we think of, the only one we can think of is the one that causes it.

[13:45]

But when we can't have any, when we can't figure out how to crave anymore, then we drop it. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, what if we saw in that example there's pain. Could you use that as the example of the suffering? What if we saw, so it doesn't think, it doesn't really feel that the clinging itself is the suffering. There's two kinds of suffering. There's pain, there's the clinging itself that's the suffering. If the baby saw that the clinging itself is the suffering, would that alone be enough? Would that alone be enough? Yeah. If the baby saw that the clinging itself is the suffering? No, the clinging itself is the suffering. Would it just let go of the clinging? I'm just imagining, just a second, I'm checking, I'm doing an experiment now. Got the baby and the thing over there is clinging to it. So, it reaches over to what it clings to. What? Okay, monkey. Okay, rob.

[14:47]

He reaches over to what he's clinging to and he, well, let's say he touches it and he gets a big, big pain hit from touching it and sees it. Or even pleasure, it doesn't matter if I see that the clinging is... Well, which do you want to do? Tell me the experiment. It doesn't matter? If it doesn't matter, then let's go on to the next thing. No, the point is about the sensation, if the thing is in the clinging, if the agent that's doing this sees that the suffering is in the clinging, would the response of pleasure or pain, would the clinging cease? If it wasn't about the response, but about seeing the suffering in the actual clinging. Well, isn't the suffering painful though? Is it painful? I don't know. No, no. It's uncomfortable. I don't know. The problem with suffering is that it's painful. If suffering wasn't painful, if it was just suffering in terms of experience, then we wouldn't have a problem. It's the pain of the suffering

[15:50]

that's the problem for people. We got life, okay? We're alive. That's set. That's working for us. The Buddhism is addressed basically to suffering and the suffering not just periodic suffering, but the suffering which we're locked into. The continuous suffering. Buddhism is addressing continuous, non-stop, endless suffering. Not the periodic stuff so much. The pain is the issue. So what's your question? If you could see... I'll get back to the source of the question. The source of the question just is that you said we'll only stop clinging when we get to the end. When you understand dependent co-arising, you will stop clinging. That's what I'm saying. I was just proposing the possibility of if you look directly at the clinging itself and perceive

[16:51]

that that itself is just an uncomfortable situation to be in, you just stop. Well, if you look at it and see it's an uncomfortable situation to be in and you see how the discomfort dependently co-arises with the clinging, then you see dependent co-arising. But I know a lot of people who see that clinging is the source of their problem. They can see that, but they keep clinging. Intellectually, they might see it, but I wonder if they really see it. Yeah, intellectually they might see it, but do they really see it? In other words, does it settle into their body, into the clinging faculties? Does it settle in there? Answer is no. In other words, they don't realize dependent co-arising. But to see the dependent co-arising of pain with clinging, that's seeing dependent co-arising. But then you don't, when you see dependent co-arising, you no longer see the thing anymore and the suffering and the clinging. They no longer see

[17:53]

one or the other. They all lose their substance. In other words, the craving goes away because it's dependent co-arising. The object goes away because it's dependent co-arising. It goes away means it loses its substance and also the pain loses its substance, which is the key point. Then we've done basically what it's about. We're free of pain and not just hot and cold pain, but the pain, this continuous pain. We're free of it. This is called freedom from pain. It's also freedom from the habit of substantializing and clinging. So you're free of clinging, attachment and pain. You're at peace. But you need to see this dependent co-arising in order for this to happen. But you make the argument or you make the proposition that seeing dependent co-arising is not possible. No, I didn't say it. It is possible as a metaphor. It's a vision.

[18:54]

It's a type of philosophical position, a philosophical understanding. Samyak Drishti, correct view, is possible. But there's no faculty for it. There's no faculty outside of the dependent co-arising that looks at it. Somehow dependent co-arising is realized fully in your body and mind. You feel dependently co-arisen. You sense that you're dependently co-arisen. You feel interconnected. How is that separate? I mean, these words... How it's separate is not separate. But the words that you used in the five skandhas of sensation, perception, those things, those are the same words that you're using to describe this experience or this event of observing or seeing dependent co-arising. But they're contained

[19:55]

within the five skandhas. But they can't be aware of themselves separate from their totality. No, they can be aware of themselves separate from their totality. But, see what he said? What they said there was incorrect. He said they can't be aware of themselves separate from their totality. There can be awareness of themselves separate from their totality. There can be that. We can do that. We can do that. We can, we can, we can. We can, we can. That's suffering, that's outflows, and that sets up the possibility for clinging. The fact that consciousness can be aware of something separate from the totality, that kind of functioning is what makes possible a partial view of what's going on and seeing something as isolated and being able to then cling to it. Seeing dependent co-arising is not part of it seeing part of it, it is understanding totality of the situation.

[20:55]

No part of the five skandhas can see the totality, consciousness can't see it, feeling can't see it, concepts can't see it, can't grasp it, no kind of thinking can grasp it, however thinking is inseparable from it, consciousness is inseparable from it, feeling is inseparable from it, all the aggregates are completely intermeshed in this dependent co-arising. Therefore none of them can be grasped because as soon as you grasp one you get five, when you grasp five you get one. You can't even get all five because when you have five you get each one of them. You can't do that actually, but to think you can is called thinking. And then you can have craving and so on. This is our normal situation. You can actually observe, you can actually see you do that, but as you watch this carefully you will notice that even this story of delusion is an independent story. The understanding will start to develop, but the understanding isn't over, is it the awareness

[22:03]

that understands? No. Is it the feeling that understands? No. Is it the thinking that understands? But you can think about this. So what is it that understands? I mean I hope it isn't the same question. It sounds like the same question. All five skandhas. All five skandhas do understand. Huh? No. Well, all five skandhas is the understanding. It isn't that all five skandhas understand, again it isn't like all five skandhas understand something. All five skandhas, the way they actually are, is the understanding, okay, but we want an understanding that we can get a hold of, you know, that's up and above what's happening. Prajna is not something in addition to what's happening. We want something that's in addition to what's happening that we can get a hold of, because you can't get a hold of what's happening because you're part of it, right? But because of the way the five skandhas works, that consciousness can look over at one of the elements in the five skandhas, because we operate that way, we think that liberation

[23:06]

and reality would be like that too, that reality would be an object. But that's because that's the way we're built. Here we have consciousness, which looks at things, and we have thinking, which characterizes this pattern of consciousness grasping objects. So we think, well, nirvana would probably also be something you can see, or dependent co-arising would also be something you can see. But actually dependent co-arising is how all this works, and not only that, but dependent co-arising in particular is dependently, co-arising describes how it is that we come up with thinking like this and creating suffering. Yeah? Could you say it this way, grasping is a mental formation, so it is another mental formation, such as, like a bodhisattva would, exchanging self for others, maybe putting avalokiteshvara on top of your head, would get away, would eliminate that grasping.

[24:07]

So what do you do now? You put avalokiteshvara on your head and it eliminates grasping? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, and you exchange yourself for others. Exchange yourself for others, eliminates grasping? Yeah, that probably would do it. And then that would be it. Pardon? You could see the self-links. Oh, then you could see the self-links, or would I see the self-links? One. One wouldn't, or one wouldn't? One. I wouldn't, you wouldn't, and one wouldn't. You don't get to put avalokiteshvara on your head, get free of self-winging, and end all outflows, and then go back to the same thing again, and do the same thing again. You'd be back in suffering again if one sees the twelve links. You can't see the twelve links. But that was a wonderful example of how you got liberated and jumped right back in the box again. But still she wants to be the one to see the twelve links, see? But that's the way consciousness works.

[25:09]

That's what you know about, so that's what you're going to reiterate. So, rather than try to not be that way, how about owning up to the fact that you are that way? Say, see what I do? I got liberation out there, so now I can know it. I got twelve links out there, so now I'm going to see them. That's the way you usually operate, so the process of liberation is going to be just like that. Right? Well, no, not, but that's the way you're going to think it is, because that's the only way you can think. That's all you've got for thinking, you know, is the thinking method. Yeah. So, would you, are you saying that, right, you, sounds like you're saying that it's a developmental process that occurs, is it something that occurs through practice? It sounds like you're saying that we don't know what causes it, because we can't separate out to see that such and such happens. We don't know what causes what? Right view. We don't know what causes right view? Yeah, in other words.

[26:10]

Let's see, do we know what causes right view? No, I'm talking about experientially. We can't step outside our experience and say, I had this experience, and now, you know, I have right view. We can't step outside our experience and say, now I have right view. Is that what you're saying? Let's try again. Are you saying that right view is developed over time? Did you say that? I don't know if I'd say that, but I could say that right view would be developed over time. I could say that. Through practice? Not necessarily. Well, see, right view is part of what's called, right view is what you do practice. It's not so much that practice develops right view. Right view is the wisdom aspect. Right view and right thought are the wisdom aspect of the practice that leads you to the freedom. Okay. Right view is a practice, and when right view is realized, the practice and the liberation

[27:15]

are the same thing. Oh, that's what I'm talking about, the realization of right view. I left that word out. Realization of right view is nirvana. So, I think what my question is, is in order to attain the realization of when you attain, or when one attains the realization of right view, is that, that sounds like it's a process that goes on until one attains the realization of right view, and that one is not able to actually look back and say, it was such and such an experience that catapulted me into this realization. This idea that such and such an experience catapulted me is a little different than the way I would put it. I would say such and such a situation was a situation where this was realized. So, you can do that. I mean, I just...

[28:18]

You can... It sounds like that's separating it out, you know. I know it sounds like that. You can, it can be said, on such and such an occasion there was realization. This can be stated. You can't, I can't, you can't say what realization is. Words cannot express what realization is, but realization can express words. Words cannot say what realization is, but realization can express words. Realization can say, it was on the occasion of the plum blossom opening. That was the occasion. You can say that. You can also just not talk about occasions. You can say anything you want. I mean, one becomes a mouthpiece for realization. Realization can express itself. It can use words, but words can't describe realization. Realization does happen in situations, human situations.

[29:23]

It happens in human bodies, human minds. It happens in human life. That's the point. That's the nice thing about it. That's why we're concerned about it. And once realization happens, it can express itself through the person, through the person's physical presence, their posture, their breathing, their thoughts, and their verbal expressions. But the person is liberated from the idea of a person separate from the five aggregates, and the five aggregates being separate from each other. The person's been liberated. The five aggregates have been liberated. So there's no clinging five aggregates anymore. So the basic material of suffering is now possible. And it was only dreamed as possible before, but the consequence of that dream is misery. And since the dream is non-stop, the misery is non-stop. And the dream is no longer there.

[30:23]

When you wake up from the dream, there's nothing to support the suffering anymore. I think maybe this is a continuation of what you've been saying. But I noticed that... I actually like to put my hands on a thing, and the thing that comes up to me is heart. So when we... It's heart. I don't know if heart is a thing, but it's heart that saves things. It's heart that saves things? I don't know why I say heart. We haven't been using the word heart for seven months. We could have a little, you know, heart week. Let's have next week be heart week. It is from compassion, right? That with compassion we're liberated. That we see the interconnection of everything. No, it's not by compassion that you're liberated. It's by compassion that you have something to work with.

[31:25]

It's by wisdom that you're liberated. Wisdom liberates you. But you can't have wisdom... What do you think about? Pardon? How do you know? I don't know. You just like believe what you know? No. This is not me talking. Okay. This is being channeled. What? Did you have a question? Yeah, I have a question. Oh, I'm sorry. I think... Did you have your hand raised? I did at one point. Or was it before her? You don't know. Anyway, there's two people over here. Two people over here. Go ahead. Whichever one wants to go first. I would like to have some... I'd like to know something about the time between the realization or the Nirvana that you described and the ordinary in terms of, say, a complete process.

[32:31]

What I'm hearing sounds like we're ordinary and then we have a realization and we are somehow not ordinary anymore or if it's not we that is doing this there is that state of being realized. And it sounds like sort of like going from one side of the coin to the other side of the coin and I was wondering about the process in between in terms of my, say, daily life. Is there... Can I use the five sandhas? Can I work with these as, say, as the unnamed person was doing last night of taking a position and looking at the other four sandhas and sort of seeing what I can from that position and switching back and forth and in that way kind of build realization.

[33:36]

Is that... Are there practices for attaining realization? Yeah. The main practice for attaining realization is being upright. If you're upright, particularly if you're... during this practice period you're here and you're upright you will keep hearing talk about five sandhas, five aggregates, okay? So then you will start to notice their functioning. Just as you said, you'll start to notice that one of them looks at the other ones and that you'll start to notice perhaps that you think, you know, in partial ways about this and then you hear that there's a problem in that and then you start to notice that there's a problem in that and you also start to see sometimes that the interdependence... You'll start to get glimmerings of the interdependence of these five aggregates. You'll start to notice the interdependence of your awareness and what you're aware of. You'll start to notice the interdependence of self and other. You'll start to notice the interdependence of mind and objects. You start to notice that for you objects without consciousness don't mean anything and consciousness

[34:43]

without objects doesn't mean anything. You also notice that consciousness without feeling doesn't mean anything and feeling without consciousness without … you start to notice this. And you also start to notice how you don't notice it. You start to notice how your language portrays that you speak a part of the seeing which you know actually characterizes the whole. You start to notice how you add, you think, you start to talk, you start to notice perhaps that you're talking as though there's something in addition to the five skandhas. You notice that. And then if you mention it, it gets pointed out to you that you've just mentioned something which is in addition to everything. But ladies and gentlemen, that is our basic set on life, as I mentioned to you before. Our basic way of thinking is there's everything plus something. That's our basic take, right? Follow me? Anybody who doesn't follow this? I mean, is there anybody who's not like that? Who doesn't think there's a universe plus something? That's our basic stance. So then we apply that to everything. There's the five aggregates plus something.

[35:44]

If it can't be me, if you can't say I can't, if you can't say I can't, you've got five aggregates plus me, how about the five aggregates plus faculty, plus God, plus heart, plus vision, plus wisdom. How about just anything, if I could just hold on, if the world can just be the whole universe plus something, then I'm fine, because then I can always, when nobody's looking, substitute me for whatever that is. But if you won't let it be me, and you won't let it be consciousness, and you won't let it be feelings, you won't let it be thinking, you won't even let it be no thinking, like no thinking, there's a universe plus no thinking, okay, that'd be good enough. Just something, some hold out, outside of totality, that'll do for me, I can always get in there, and find my independent existence, okay. So you start to notice this stuff, and as you notice this stuff, you are doing the practice of being aware of how you cling, it is by watching your clinging, it is by watching your clinging, watching your clinging, in other words, watch how you cling to your experience.

[36:49]

Whatever your experience is, you do not just have your experience, you do not just have your experience, that's the problem, that's suffering. We don't just have experience, we have experience plus something, what is the something plus? Something grabs it, there is grabbing of it, and if there's grabbing of it, somebody's grabbing it, something's grabbing it, that's suffering, that's what we've got. If you start noticing experience one, experience two, experience three, experience four, okay, plus experience one plus something, experience two plus something, experience three plus something, always something in addition that's grabbing the experience, you start to notice that. You also notice that this is uncomfortable, [...] I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling insecure. Senior Dharma teacher's starting to feel insecure, there's something in addition to what's going on here, I notice that, so this is what it's like, this is what it's like to have a self on top of things or have something on top of things, rather than just everything, you

[37:52]

can't get a hold of everything if you're part of it, but if you're outside of it, you can get a hold of it. So you notice this and you'd have this already happening, you don't have to get into the minute details of discussing the analytic aspects of the five skandhas, you can just notice that. You have experience plus something, there's experience plus clinging and that's suffering. Now unfolding what you're clinging to and noticing the five aggregates analysis helps you understand how this doesn't work, because you can see, although you do think, you actually do think, we actually do think that there is the world plus us and it's hard for us to uproot that, we can certainly see that that's not true of our mental function. We know that there's not just consciousness, nobody's going to say there's just consciousness except of course this guy Sati in this book, he said actually to the other monks there's just consciousness existing all by itself and they said, no, no, Buddha didn't say that, don't say that. If you want, you know, I'll read you this, this is an example of the Buddha getting rough with somebody, his own disciple, he called him a fool in front of everybody, he said you're

[38:58]

in trouble boy, who told you that, anyway, the Buddha got rough with one of his disciples and afterwards the guy was kind of like, and he fought back the Buddha and said, no, no, you said that and it's true, you know, and there really is, and even if you didn't say it's true, anyway, but in the end he actually didn't accept the Buddha's teaching and wake up, he was dejected, he fought tooth and nail to establish that there is consciousness, now none of you would do that, not, you know, not in front of everybody, but as soon as the class is over, well, there's not consciousness everything, but there is something, and I'm going to find out what it is, there's something that gets enlightened, there's something that understands and I think it might be me, but if it's not me, I'm going to give it such a nice name that nobody will argue, like grandma, grandma or some other, what's other good

[39:59]

name to give it, some really unassailable wholesome name for it and then it can be that. Buddha. Buddha understands, there we go, it's Buddha that understands, the five skandhas, but Buddha didn't, Buddha said, no, [...] that's not true, there is not a Buddha in addition to the five skandhas, Buddha is a person that understands that. Avalokiteshvara, she's volunteered to pretend like she's Sati, there is Avalokiteshvara here and five skandhas over there, right, right out of the heart sutra, she's got evidence to contradict Buddha's teaching, there is a thing called Avalokiteshvara, which is not

[41:05]

empty, right, and five skandhas over there, she's got it, so you better throw that sutra away because people will misunderstand it, they'll think that Avalokiteshvara is something besides, and by the way, Miphoni, the term used for Avalokiteshvara in the heart sutra is a very unusual term which I've mentioned to you before, usually they call Avalokiteshvara Guanyin or Kuanyin or Kanon or Kanjizai, Kan, no, or Kanzeon, Kan, listen, Ze, world sounds, but in the heart sutra it's got a different name, it's called Kanjizai, in other words, it's contemplation of the way the self exists, so you can say the Bodhisattva of the contemplation of the way the self exists observed that the five skandhas are empty, in other words, the observation of the way the self existed was observing the way the five skandhas don't have

[42:10]

inherent existence and was relieved, there was a relief from all suffering in observing that the five skandhas are interdependent, the meditation on the way the self exists was meditating on the way the five skandhas exist, and what did it find out? They're interdependent, and that was the relief of suffering, now it says, and was relieved, but what was relieved? What was relieved, ladies and gentlemen, was the meditation on the existence of the self, that was relief from suffering. Before the meditation on self, when you're meditating on self and you see the self in addition to everything, the meditation on self is still encumbered with misery, but when the meditation on self sees the five aggregates interdependently and not being in addition to it, that's relief of suffering. But that very statement can be taken as that meditation is something separate from the

[43:12]

five aggregates, that the meditation is a person even, separate from the five aggregates, and if we're not going to say it's a person, then we say it's a meditation separate from the five aggregates, but it can't be separate, otherwise it wouldn't be understanding interdependence because it would be separate from it, it has to jump in there, and be the five aggregates itself. But notice how the mind keeps slipping back into this self-other dualism, subject-object dualism, it keeps going back, back, back, so that you can depend on, you see, no matter how much we talk it keeps popping up, you keep got that, so keep studying that, keep noticing that, the more you can face that self-other thing and the clinging of self, the more you do that, you start to develop this understanding, and you get closer to the end of the craving. But the end of the craving comes from when you abandon the clinging, as it says in the

[44:14]

sutra, this wonderful sutra, 190, the simile of the elephant foot. At the end of it, you know, as Shardputra is giving the talk, Buddha took a lunch break and Shardputra took over the teaching and he said, material form in what has thus come to be included in the material form aggregate affected by clinging. So there's material form and it has come to be in the material aggregate which is affected by clinging, and similarly, the feeling in what has come to be included in the feeling aggregate affected by clinging. The consciousness which has come to be included in the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. He thus understands, this indeed is how there comes to be inclusion, gathering, amassing

[45:20]

of things into the five aggregates affected by clinging. A feeling comes up, we put it in an aggregate that we can cling to, okay? A color comes up, we put it in an aggregate that we can cling to. A consciousness comes up, we put it in an aggregate that we can cling to. We do this, something comes up, we put it in, grab it. This is how you do it. This is how you amass and cling to things. Now this has been said by the Blessed One, one who sees the dependent co-arising sees dharma, one who sees dharma sees dependent co-arising, and these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, the indulgence, the inclination, the holding based on these aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of the desire, the lust and the abandonment of the desire and the lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is a cessation of suffering. And that point, two friends, has been done by that bhikkhu.

[46:28]

This little section there is a real gem of dharma there at the end of the elephant foot sutra. It tells you how you put the stuff in there, how the dependent co-arising of suffering, how you see the dependent co-arising, it even says, one who sees … this is a normal thing. There is one here who sees these things, takes them, puts them in and grabs them. One who sees something takes them and grabs them. This is the normal way. One who sees that, how that works and sees the dependent co-arising of that, sees dharma. One who sees dharma sees that. When you see the dependent co-arising of it, you abandon this clinging to five aggregates. Abandoning the clinging to five aggregates is the dependent co-arising of the end of suffering. But he noted that he saw, and the Buddha saw too, saw what? What saw what? Feeling, it gets taken, put in the aggregate, grasp. Various mental formations come up, put in the mental formations things and grasp.

[47:38]

They saw that. They did that too. They were operating like that too. And even up to today, people still are operating like that. What's unusual is for people to notice this process. Noticing this process is developing right understanding. Right understanding is realized when this is clearly seen and there's nobody in addition to the process. There's just the dependent co-arising of the five aggregates. Do you still want to have a question Christina? Well, yes, you said something way back that if it's realized, it's apparent in the actions, in the speech. Yeah. If it's fully realized. Right. But then there's the person that that happens to doesn't know it because there's nothing to know about the realization. If the realization is thorough, the person doesn't make the realization an object.

[48:43]

But the person might notice, the person could still notice, I'm talking about the five skandhas differently. I'm still saying I'm talking about the five skandhas, but they could also say the meditation that's going on in the five skandhas has changed. The language has changed. There's a different way of talking here. Wow. It's beautiful. You start to see the Dharmasters come out of your own mouth, little Buddhas come out. Your language changes and you didn't like get in there and like change the way you tried to think. You're talking different because you understand different. Now, it's also possible to have a pretty good realization, but the habits are so strong when I'm talking that the realization isn't strong enough to like change your tone in such a way that your tongue doesn't still talk in terms of the world plus something. Even though you don't see the world plus something anymore, you still have language habits which talk that way. But there's still some sign when a person has dropped that vision and is no longer clinging

[49:50]

to the person clinging to the five aggregates, there's still some sign in the way they talk about their experience. For example, if they still talk that way but you point out that that's still going on that way, they can often like adjust and find that that way is very comfortable for them. And you notice that they don't like flip right back in a second later to the old mode. Once they learn a new little linguistic pattern which actually portrays their realization, they're happy to switch, but they couldn't think of it right away maybe. But the language is the way we tell. The meditator says how they see what their experience and you can tell by what they say whether they see their experience plus themselves. In other words, whether they claim their experience or whether they're just describing experience and there's nobody in addition to that and also nobody subtracted from it. That the person and the experience are not two different things and the person can't get the experience and experience can't get the person. The person can't crave and the craving can't get the person.

[50:52]

You don't crave, you don't cling, you don't thirst and thirst doesn't get you either. It's mutually releasing. So the language will portray that. Again, you can't say what the person will say when they have realization but realization can say, can talk. And realization can talk in this different way. It can describe processes in terms of dependent co-arising rather than grasping. So there is a change and that's one of the ways you help people. In some cases the person is still using old patterns but then you can help them drop the patterns. But not drop the patterns in order to sound like they're enlightened but drop the patterns because that matches their understanding now. And again, some people come in with enlightened language but when it's tested you find out that it was not strong enough to uphold. So for example, it's true that there is no feeling, there is no thought actually.

[51:53]

And you can have some sense of that which is good and you can get that in your meditation but then is it strong enough to hold up against the habit and sometimes it's not. But it's okay, you know. This is normal. To build up this kind of strength and integrity of your vision, you know, of this insight which is not personal but is actually just the way the five skandhas really are. And it's also normal that we have this clinging. So we have to admit where we're at. The way unfolds here. Here is the place. The way your mind is actually operating now is what we use. And we just have to let people in and say, okay, see there's clinging. And that's clinging, that's craving, that's thirst. That's it. It's operating very nicely. Can you see it? Can you see that you're actually an example of what the Buddha was teaching? That you're just like the ancestors. And if you're studying you're really like them. Everybody's like this but not everybody studies. The study is the path.

[52:57]

And the right understanding is to study the Four Noble Truths. And studying the Four Noble Truths means you study the truth which is the origin of suffering. The origin of suffering is clinging to the five aggregates or the five aggregates of clinging. The five aggregates of clinging. Is to put your experience, also put your experience in a little place where it can be grasped. Whatever happens, put there. And then it seems like there's somebody here. Which is just what we're used to. Is that the origin of clinging? You said the origin of suffering is the clinging. Is that the origin of the clinging? The origin of the clinging I think is, in my understanding, is the origin of the clinging is, to make a long story short, the development of the ability to be aware of objects as external. In the development of the human species. And that's what we studied when we studied 30 Verses of Vasubandhu.

[53:59]

He explains how the consciousness evolves in these three ways and gives rise to the sense of subject and object. The reason I asked wasn't because I expected you to want to know, but because you said that seeing the dependent co-arising of the clinging was the way of being liberated from it. So in that sense, I know it's the totality of all things, but what is the background of the clinging? The thing is, if you see the dependent co-arising of the clinging, or the dependent co-arising of the craving, that liberates you. And sets you free from suffering. You will also, as a little bonus, when your eyes open that way, you will also notice the dependent co-arising of the clinging, and also the dependent co-arising of subject-object dualism. You understand all that. Because it's one big picture, but you don't have to approach it that way. In some people, Vasubandhu's text is more approaching through the subject-object meditation, rather than through the clinging. The Buddha taught, in these texts here, in the Four Noble Truths, at that phase of his teaching, which is the early phase,

[55:02]

and stays at the core, is to focus on the suffering. But later, Vasubandhu didn't talk about suffering so much as a meditation object. He wasn't teaching the Four Noble Truths so literally. He more got into the subject-object thing. If you uproot that, that will also do the same trick. The way to uproot that is, let's say you're really focusing on the suffering of the clinging, just to step back into all things, to see the dependent co-arising of the clinging, which uproots, which is uprooting the subject-object dualism. I think Roberta was next, and now Marsha. I'm wondering if it's possible for human beings to completely stop suffering at all. I can see how one can stop clinging to suffering, but the actual occasion of suffering itself.

[56:02]

I'm wondering if that's possible, or even desirable, when there's this whole... What kind of suffering do you think might need to go on? Might need to go on? Well, I was just thinking of this, for example, this story I was reading about one of the great Tibetan teachers, and that was, I don't know, maybe a little way back, let's say. And he had been teaching something similar, and then his son died. And he was crying, crying, and the disciples said, how can you be crying? How can there be any attachment here? And I forgot what the answer is, but the point is, how can we not have responses like that, when, for example, your child died? You know, I can see, especially when you're talking about clinging to something, the actual occasion of suffering. Well, we're not so much clinging to suffering, it's suffering results from clinging. People don't necessarily cling to suffering so much. That's not universal. It's more that we cling to pleasure. But anyway, I think you're proposing that if you stub your toe,

[57:06]

there still might be pain, right? That's right. And there might still be pain, plus also stubbing your toe might be, it has been the occasion, it was, what is it, Shrensha, Shrensha stubbed his toe, and in the midst of severe toe pain, he said, you know, body and mind don't exist, where does the pain come from? He saw the pinnacle arising of the pain in his toe, and that was his awakening experience. Then he went back to Shreya Fong and told him these news. So it was right in the middle, it is in the middle of suffering that you usually first wake up, and then after you wake up, you can still feel pain when you stub your toe, because it's still useful, even for Buddhas, to notice when they stub their toe, that they've stubbed their toe. Now, there's various ways to stub your toe. There's a non-painful way of stubbing your toe, like, for example, this way. I have my shoes on, it didn't hurt a bit. And noticing that is not so crucial for Buddhas, or for non-Buddhas. But if I stub my toe severely enough for it to start bleeding,

[58:09]

it's helpful if I get a painful sensation, which is basically, you know, cool it, man, take it easy now, this is, you know, did you really, you know, this might make it hard for you to go to the Zen Dojo. So anyway, that kind of pain goes on. The Buddha still feels pain. That kind of pain. It's also feedback, we can describe it. It's totally about feedback. The other kind of pain is also feedback, but it's feedback about something different. It's feedback about clinging. This is feedback about toe damage. The other one is feedback about clinging to the five aggregates. That kind goes on all the time, and endlessly. The other kind comes and goes according to circumstances. It doesn't last a long time usually, and that kind should go on, is helpful as long as you have a body. It's helpful. The other kind is optional, and I really don't, I think, you know, once you've got it going,

[59:10]

it's time to let go of that kind of pain. And we all have it, so it's time to let go of it. But it turns out we can't just let go of it, we have to let go of something else too. And it's hard to let go of the other thing, because the other thing is clinging to the five aggregates, which is such a powerful habit. As you see, you know, as you see it happening right in this class, as you read in the scriptures, it is powerful. And some people are really stubborn about it. And the Buddha even gets a little rough. Sweet old Shakyamuni Buddha, gentle Shakyamuni, called this guy a fool. He still didn't stop him. Read that. It's wonderful. It's called, and the name of the sutra is The End of Craving. What's the number? It's number 38. The Destruction of Craving is the name of the scripture. And the Destruction of Craving,

[60:11]

the lead story, the lead koan, is this guy who says, consciousness exists by itself. In other words, I exist by myself. Put this kind of scarecrow up there, just to see what we're talking about. So the greater discourse on the destruction of suffering means a greater discourse on nirvana. Marsha? Okay, I'm still sort of speaking out loud, but it sounds to me like... That's one kind of talk you ever do. But it sounds to me like, first of all, people are looking for the condition out of which realization arises. Yeah? Sounds like that? Okay. Right. Or at least you are. Okay. And therefore looking for, you know, how do we create the conditions, you know, from which realization arises. Right.

[61:12]

But actually, realization arises, there are no special conditions. That's right. Out of all conditions, realization is available. That's right. So, another word for nirvana, or another word would be like now, or... That's another word for it. Okay, so I just wanted to establish that. And then in addition to that... That's important to establish. But there are then things that we can do that help diminish the power and energy of our habits, right? No. No. There isn't. Well, I don't think so. So there's no way to... There's only that then, too. There's only what then, too? Presence? Only the realization of now, or presence,

[62:15]

or, you know, realization. No, really, really all there is, really all that there is for the realization is the conditions for realization. That's all there is. Really. Now, this thing about reducing the habits, I don't recommend that, you know. I think that's like denial. You know, weaker habits. Yeah, sure. Who thought of that? Who thought of that? Some pretty powerful dude or chick thought of. Okay, let's reduce the habit, okay? Who's going to do that? Who's going to reduce the habit? That's one of our habits, reduce habits. No, no. Getting better. Yeah, getting better. Maybe not reducing habits, but... Weakening. Well, what I'm thinking of is that, you know, practice. We do have practices that... We do have practices, yes, that help to realize patterns.

[63:16]

Yes, we have practices which help to realize our habit patterns. That's what you said, right? Right. Notice the difference between having practices which help realize your habit patterns and trying to reduce your habit patterns. That's the difference. The habit would be... One of the habits would be to try to reduce the habit pattern. You got a problem? Reduce it. That's our habit. That is our habit. Got a problem? Reduce it. Got a good thing? Increase it. Now, she said, I thought we have practices which were... I thought she was going to say conducive to liberation. We do. Practices which are conducive to liberation are... Practices which are like... Got a habit? It's conducive to liberation to say, Got a habit. Got a strong habit? The practice conducive to liberation is, Got a strong habit. Got a weak habit? The practice conducive to liberation from is, Got a weak habit. Trying to reduce habits reinforces them. Oh, there's Marsha.

[64:18]

Give her a habit. She'll try to reduce it. Did she try to reduce it? Yep. Got her. Give her another one. Did she try to reduce it again? Mm-hmm. Give her another one. Okay. Did she try to reduce it? Yep. Did it look like it got reduced? Yep. Is she happy? Yep. Got her. Just keep feeding her a habit. She'll try to reduce it forever. The devil is happy when you try to reduce the devil. Now, the devil gives you a habit. What'd she do with it? She looked at it. Hmm? What? She didn't try to do anything with it? No. Ooh, we got a problem here. Give her a bigger one. What'd she do? She looked at it. Give her a bigger one. Did she try to reduce it? Uh-huh. Got her. You will be tested. If you can leave the little ones alone, they'll give you bigger ones, and bigger ones, until finally you can leave them alone. Okay? That's conducive to enlightenment. But leave them alone means you say,

[65:19]

Ooh, it's getting bigger. Ooh, it's getting bigger. Ah, it's getting bigger. Relax. Don't get into dramatizing this. You've got to cool it. This is getting so big, you've got to sit down here. Okay. What's next? Don't even say next. Okay. That's conducive. That's called now. That's called presence. That's called leaving alone. That's called abandoning clinging. That's conducive. And so when these habits come up, you abandon messing with them. You abandon clinging. So Buddha, look at the example of Buddha. Did Buddha have like weak habits? Did he have like wimpy habits? Did he say, I had wimpier habits than most people? Did he brag that he had stronger habits than most people? He didn't brag that he had strong habits, but he had strong ones. His were as strong as anybody I've ever heard of. Milarepa had strong habits too. These people had regular, full-fledged, heavy-duty habits like ordinary people. You could say, no, they had bigger habits than most people.

[66:20]

They probably did. So strong that it was like very vivid to them and they'd like, okay, habit. That's conducive. That's our practice. Our practice is to sit upright and contemplate the way the self exists. Aval kanji zai. To be upright and contemplate the way the self exists. How does the self exist? In habitual, powerfully habitual way. That's the way it exists. Face it. That's conducive to enlightenment. Don't bang your head against it. Don't shrink away from it. Don't turn to the side either way. Just face it. Sit upright and face the facts. Face reality. Face your attachment. This is conducive. This develops right understanding. That's called presence. And so the conditions for awakening are the conditions that are of what's happening. So you sit there

[67:20]

and you watch the conditions. That will be the condition. As you said, any conditions are fine. Any of them are fine if you see how they work. That's the condition. Okay? Just one more. As we are more and more able to become aware of... Oh, that's what it was. Thank you. We have to stop now pretty soon. Okay. This will be quick. So as we develop our ability to be upright with our habit, Yes. that in itself, the effect of that will in fact reduce that habit energy. Right? But the power of that habit energy is not diminished through awareness?

[68:21]

The clinging totally ceases. Well, that's talking about complete realization. Well... Why don't we give it a little bit? Is it? Just a second. When the clinging, when the craving totally ceases and you get totally liberated, did the habit energy wane at all? Did the habit energy wane at all? Well, some kind of... A certain kind of habit energy wane. What kind of habit energy wane? The craving wane. The craving wane. The... What do you call it? The outflows wane. They wane big time. They went down to zero. That's what I meant. They go way down. They go down completely. But really what... They don't really go down completely. It's just that you don't get involved with them anymore.

[69:27]

Your mind can still pop them up there. And if you can't, you can get somebody else that can. And since you're a Bodhisattva, you're connected to all those people. So the potential, the power to think in this leaking way, to have craving, it's always there. It doesn't get weaker. It's just that you don't cling to it. You abandon it. The abandonment becomes complete. It's basically over because you don't cling to it anymore. But the strength of the stuff doesn't get weaker and weaker and weaker because if it got weaker... Well, if it gets weaker and weaker and weaker, it just gets... It's super hard to abandon it because it would get down to a place where you wouldn't even be able to recognize it at all. That is a problem sometimes. Things get subtle. But it's nicer actually if they stay nice and strong and clear. So they don't really get weaker. The point is anyway is to abandon them completely. The complete part is the complete abandoning of the craving. Complete abandoning of the clinging to your experience. That you can do

[70:28]

and the way you do it is by being upright. In other words, you just study. You find a mind which just studies this stuff and give up the mind which is playing with it. So we can just come back to this. There are no special conditions. These are the conditions. Yeah. And not even these. Okay? We just work with this. Okay? And that is non-discriminating wisdom that you work with whatever is happening. You don't try to stop having discriminations. You just study what's ever happening. And that is conducive to liberation. So you study the habits and studying the habits is conducive to liberation. And our forms of practice here that we have at Tassajara these forms of practice of having a schedule and so on are forms which are conducive to liberation. Because they help you become aware of

[71:29]

your attachments. Don't they? Yeah. You have a class, you know, at a certain time. You come or not. You feel you're leaning towards the class or you're leaning away from the class. These are opportunities. We have these opportunities. Which are conducive to enlightenment. To liberation. Because they help you get in touch with your clinging. When you see the clinging you're starting to see the place where you don't believe in dependent co-arising. By seeing that you don't believe in dependent co-arising you can see dependent co-arising. So, I asked my dear Jisha to signal me ten minutes before but he he did it in a way that I thought he was trying to ask a question. I was trying to do both. What you got to do is you got to abandon asking questions and just signal me. Use this one. Anybody can use this one anytime

[72:29]

on me. It won't necessarily work but I appreciate it. So I wanted to stop at ten o'clock so the kitchen can What time is it? Ten o'clock. Ten o' one. Ten o' one. Sorry I'm late. Ten o' one.

[72:49]

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