So Master Jinshan asked Master Chushan, clearly knowing the unborn nature of birth, how are we stayed by birth? So I think we talked about this before, but does this question make sense to you as a question? I mean, does it seem like there would be a question there? Do you understand? Yes? I don't see the question. Okay. So if you can see, he's not saying how come you stayed by birth. Did you say birth? Yeah. He's not saying why you stayed by birth. Because I think most people would understand how come you stayed by birth, right?

[01:03]

Everybody understand how it would be that you stayed by birth? Any questions about that? No? Is anybody afraid to ask the question? Yes? I'm not exactly sure what that means. Well, stayed by birth would mean, you know, that you're supported by birth or held back by birth, detained by birth, limited by birth. Does that make sense? At birth, meaning? When you're born, doesn't that, like, stay you? Doesn't that support you and bind you at the same time? Taking on a body, isn't that kind of a problem? Did everybody understand the problem of having a body, a human body? It comes with all kinds of, you know, desires.

[02:12]

And even it comes with not only desires, but it comes with Like, you know, the desire to maybe get something before somebody else. It comes with the desire to maybe, like, button line for the food or the sex. It doesn't seem to come with a built-in thing about like, hey, you go first. It comes with desires for various things, for territory, for status, for appreciation by other beings, particularly human, particularly big, important humans. Have you noticed that, about body, have that thing? But when you were little, you cared about what your mother and father thought of you? Did you know, did you ever have that experience? Or your teachers, or your coaches, or... That's what comes with a human body.

[03:16]

Does that make sense? You get a human body, you get that stuff. You get desires plus selfishness. So, it seems like there's not too much of a question. If he said, you know, getting a human body, do you understand why you're somewhat limited by that, but also you're supported by that. It's also a support, it's a base for life. You get the human life, you get the human body, you get born, that's some support but it's also a limitation. But he's saying if you would see now that this birth by nature is not a birth, is no birth, then then how would you be either supported or limited by birth? Because you might think, if you like see the unborn nature of your birth, wouldn't you be like liberated from birth?

[04:18]

Wouldn't that be liberation from your bodily problems? What does it mean to see the unborn nature of birth? I guess is to see that by the very nature of birth, by the very nature of the way you're born, the way you're born actually is that you're not born, is that you're not born. The very way you happen is why there's not actually something there. If you don't see how you're born, then you're born, and we're born through ignorance, we're born as something, as independent activity or independent being, because we don't look at how we're born, we don't see how we're born, we ignore how we're born.

[05:19]

So if you don't see how you're born, then you might see how you could be supported and or hindered by your birth, not by how you're born, but by the results of how you come to be. But if you could see that, wouldn't you be liberated from what comes with being born? Well, the Buddhist teaching is you would be liberated. That's the point, is that if you see the unborn nature of birth, you will be liberated from birth. You understand no birth, then you're liberated from birth. Or, the word birth, by the way, also means, it's also the Chinese character, which means birth or arising, but it also means life. So you can put life in there. You can say, clearly seeing the not-life nature of life, How would you stay by life?

[06:24]

So if you see the unborn nature of birth, you will be liberated from birth. But then how would you be supported by birth? How would you be hindered by birth? Do you understand why he's asking that question? Tell me about it. Yes? Does it seem like he really wonders why he doesn't feel liberated? Or the group isn't? He might be wondering why he's not liberated, or he might be wondering about how a liberated being could be supported.

[07:28]

If you're liberated, how would a liberated being be supported? If you're liberated from your supports, and or he might be wondering how a liberated being is limited. So again, the word stay is nice because it has good translation because it carries, a stay is something that supports, a stay on a ship supports the mast, right? But it also limits, it keeps the mast from falling over so the mast is stuck up there, you know, it can't fall over. So it hinders or limits or restrains the mast from falling over but also supports the mast. So life both hinders and supports us But then if you would understand the nature of life as no life, then you would be liberated from life. So then one's clearly seeing. Most people don't see this, right? Most people don't know. So, of course, they would be both supported and hindered by life. But when a being sees it, they're liberated.

[08:31]

So how is it that a liberated being is supported and hindered by life? That's what I think he's wondering about. I think he also maybe has a sense of that, but he wants to see what his friend thinks. And his friend will tell him what he thinks. He's asking somebody who he thinks will have an opinion on the matter. And the guy does. Quite an interesting opinion. Don't you think? But I've been asking, you know, I'm asking you, you know, you can come up with your own answer. But before you come up with your answer, I just wanted some questioning of you to see if you get the point of the question. Does it kind of like get to you? If you're liberated, how would you be supported by what you're liberated in relationship to, or how would you be hindered by what you're liberated from? Because don't you usually not be hindered by what you're liberated from? And also if you're liberated by something, you're not really supported by it in a dependent way necessarily, right?

[09:34]

Yeah? I guess I hear the question in another way, which is that you're not liberated. How is it that having kind of seen something or having some kind of understanding, maybe more than intellectual, but having something to see in the unborn nature, you're still not completely liberated? Okay, you could split the question into two tiers. One tier would be How is it that you could have this insight and not be liberated? The other is, how could you be liberated and still be stayed? So you can have it at two layers. Okay? That you could have this insight but not be liberated. So we can deal with it that way. But also I'd like to say, is it possible that you'd be liberated and be stayed or supported by life? Is it too possible? You can understand the question in both those ways. Lynn? It just occurred to me now, I've been thinking of this, and this didn't occur to me until this moment, that once liberated, the stay, both aspects of being stay, will still go on, but in a different way.

[10:45]

So the question might be, how then is there some transformation of the spouses by enlightenment? Okay, so that's one way you could understand this question. Yeah, I like that one. Pardon? I'm now understanding it that way. Yeah, do you have anything to say about that, how that might be the case, now that you understand the question that way? Well, I think the second person gives bears on that. It does. It tries to answer that. It does, that's right. But do you have some other opinion or some other way of putting it? No. No, okay, yeah. I think the other person is definitely trying to respond to this question, and it's a pretty interesting response. But before you look at his response, you might think of what your response is. And also, please clarify before you give your response, at least in your own mind, which question you think is being asked, okay?

[11:54]

Does that make sense? So, like, you think Jeremy's question is being asked? Or do you think the question, in other words, that you've had this insight, but you're not really liberated? So the question is, how is it that you could have this insight and not be liberated? That's your question, right? You have an insight, but you're not... How could you have this insight and not be liberated? That's one question. And you can answer that question. Shushan answers that question. You think Shushan answers that question? The other question is, if you are liberated... then how could it be, okay? So, yes, Carol. You want to call me? You want to call me yet? Well, okay, Carol? Clearly knowing that animal nature's life depends on birth. Yeah. Right, you'd have to have birth to see that his nature was no birth. Right.

[13:00]

Well, what are you saying? Anything more than that? No, I thought that. I think that's enough. Okay. Yes, Elaine? Sure. Is that okay for you, Micah? Okay for you, Lee? Go ahead. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was asked to watch that the doors stay closed so she doesn't miss me. Okay. Sueko and Patty and Jane and Melissa and Susan. Is that all the people who had their hand raised so far? Okay. Yes. I believe that he's asking the second question. Okay. And I think that, you know, that's so clear, but now that I thought... Let me have that word.

[14:07]

Oh, right. So basically he's saying, well... Because I know. He's saying... Since nothing's changed, how is it that I'm changed? And what I think is it's not the nature of life. Unstayed life seems to be death. But stayed life is life. And liberation is an accord for stayed life, not other than to stay on. That's your answer to the second way of understanding the question? Sure. Okay. Yes. Okay. I don't know, Jane? It might be similar to what he put, but taking that question as having the understanding, I always want to state by life, maybe there's just no difference at that point.

[15:11]

That being liberated from pride and the stays of birth, they're the same. being liberated from birth, then what's their... Whatever staying impact there is by life. Yes. They're the same, isn't it? They? Who are they? The liberation. Yes. And these restraints or supports. Oh. What's the difference? Oh, the stays and the supports are no different from the liberation. Right. That's your answer to the question, if the question is, if you were liberated, how would life be staying you? Okay? It would stay you by being no different from your liberation. That's the way it would stay you. Okay? Okay. So now people are answering the second way of understanding the question.

[16:14]

We're not talking about Shushan's answer yet. Patty? I mean, I shouldn't say they are. Jane is, and Sueko was. Yes, Patty? Okay. Okay. It says over here, the girl Antisha said, there is the one who clearly sees, yet whose strength is not yet sufficient and is moved back by life. And what that made me think is that I was thinking about my granddaughter, who's nine months old, and it seems to me when I watch her that she clearly sees. She clearly knows the unborn nature of life. Yet she doesn't yet have the strength somehow. So it's like she needs to be saved by life. She does something about, I don't know, about the bamboo growing too, coming into its fullness.

[17:22]

Do you see that part? Do I see it in what you're saying? I mean the part where Antitia says. Antitia? Yeah, the girl Antitia. Oh, Antitia. Oh, the girl Antitia was a Brahmin. Yeah. Daughter of so-and-so. Uh-oh. Oh, she doesn't want to. Huh? She wants the door to be open. She doesn't have it, except she wants it. Great being Manjushri asked, is there anyone who knows the unborn nature of birth who is held back by birth? The girl said, there is. The one who clearly sees, yet whose strength is not yet sufficient, is held back by birth.

[18:32]

OK? And you think your grandchild is like that. OK? And let's see, and there is Melissa and Susan and Grace. Okay, this is in response to really knowing the unborn nature of light, where we stay by light. Having liberation from birth, where we stay from birth. Stayed from birth? Stayed by birth. How would it be that one could obtain liberation without life? I mean, in order to be liberated from life, you need to have life. Right. So in that way, you'd be supported by life?

[19:36]

Yes, and also held back by life. Because? Because your liberation from life needs life. Right. Okay. Susan? I think this has to do with form and emptiness, and that To think that liberation is something other than, that emptiness is something other than form or that form is different from emptiness is a mistake to you. And that to somehow, I mean, We are, form itself is emptiness. We all understand perfectly. It happens that way sometimes. Grace? Well, it seems to me that this is just also the nature of mind, that habit patterns of mind take years to undo.

[20:52]

And Which question are you answering? Which level of understanding of the question are you using? Because most people that have spoken so far are speaking about it in terms of, if you were liberated, how would it still support you? Okay, so which one are you responding to? Which one understanding of the question are you responding to? Do you know what I mean? I'm not sure I get that. I think she wasn't here. I wasn't there. Oh, you just came in. Okay. So let me just not talk. Okay. So, so far most of the people are responding to the question of, if you could see this and were liberated, then how would it be that you were still stayed? But what this girl said, Manjushri asked the same question, right? So Jinshan's asking the same question that Manjushri asked, right?

[21:53]

The girl says, Patty's interpretation is like the girl answered. And it looks like maybe Shushan is taking it the same way that this girl answered, in the same way you're seeing your grandchild. That your grandchild sees but is not liberated. She doesn't have the strength yet. And this girl is saying the same thing. So we've been talking about it as though a person does have the strength and how a person who does have the strength would still be stayed by birth. All right? Okay? Now, if we look at shushans, now, before we look at shushans, now we talk about what does it mean for somebody to see but not be strong enough.

[22:55]

Okay? So you said she's not strong enough. What does that mean? Linda? Well, maybe this is kind of a simplified version, but why haven't we seen it both ways? The one you just asked about is someone who can have a glimpse into non-inherent nature of all being. We can have Darshan and Markievicz see that, and yet it will take a while before we have embodied that or fully expressed that in every possible moment. So that's one part. The second part is the bodhisattva. To me, it's just the bodhisattva's vow that stays you. It may be in both instances. And to be able to see that there are no beings there and have compassion to stand and work to help, that's the key to it.

[24:05]

That's the only thing that stays one. Okay, now, you gave a double-pronged answer. Part of your answer was that having insight into the unborn nature of life, which would be a more deeper, even maybe a little bit deeper understanding than having insight into the non-self nature of self. So there would be insight into the non-nature self or the no-self nature of self. How would you be stayed by self? But even a deeper understanding would be the unborn nature of life or all things. How would you be stayed by things or life?

[25:09]

So your first answer was you could have insight, but you hadn't purified your your body-mind situation of habits. Okay? That was your first. But then you took another tack when you talked about this bodhisattva vow thing, I think. Right. The other tack was? That the bodhisattva vow stays you. Yeah. Okay? See, there's a difference. She had two answers, really. Mm-hmm. And you can just hold those two answers there for a while if you want to. And it sounds like Grace was talking about like your first answer, right? Right. It sounds like, and so you were maybe taking the question in the way of you can have insight but not yet have, not be yet, not have matured yourself in accord with that insight because of habits. So there is, in Buddhist storytelling, there's the thing about you can have insight into, what do you call it, dropping this, what we call satkaya drishti, dropping the view of the body or the substance of the self.

[26:29]

You can have that insight, which in a deeper version of that would be even have insight into the selflessness or the birthlessness of birth. The self of birth is birth, right? So you see the non-birth of birth, you see the selflessness of phenomena that are born. So that's a deeper insight, which maybe you can talk about later if you want to. But even that insight needs to be integrated with the habits which didn't necessarily evaporate at the time of that insight. So there's a period of training where you bring habits which were set up under the old regime of thinking that there was a self nature to self or a born nature to birth or a life nature to life. Various habits were set up under that understanding.

[27:35]

Now the understanding drops, but the habits still have some momentum. So then the new insights brought into connection with those old habits. Okay? That's one of the stories that we tell when we talk about Buddhist practice in terms of stages. But there's this other dimension which Linda's bringing up and which Melissa brought up, and another dimension which Jane brought up and Susan brought up. See these various dimensions here, the various aspects? One of the dimensions is that even if there are habits we still have some strength or some momentum that go along with this insight. This insight could not be there without the life which makes these habits, or the life which is these habits.

[28:43]

And so these habits still support, for now anyway, support the life of this vision, of this insight. So they support it, but also this insight, For now, anyway, for this person has no life aside from these habits. Now these habits can drop and the insight could still be alive after the habits drop. But for now, but there would still be life, but it wouldn't be the life of these habits. Okay? The other dimension is that Jane is saying that the insight in these habits are And Susan's saying, too, the inside of these habits are, you know, there's really nothing, there's no difference between them, really. The inside and the habits, the inside and the bad habits, the inside and the habits set up under delusion, there's no difference.

[29:46]

Okay? You getting all these different aspects here? Okay, now, Let's look at Shushan now, because he's responding to the question, I think, from the point of view of more like, if you have this insight but you're not yet ready for it, or you're not yet mature enough for it, something like that, which is similar to, I think, this thing about you've had the insight but you still have the habits. Looks like, right? That's his response. He's picking up on that aspect of the thing. Are you following this now? Okay, so he says, by the way, I brought a can of bamboo shoots. Slender bamboo shoots. Are we going to try and make rope?

[30:56]

Yeah, that's right. You can't make rope out of this stuff. But if you want to make rope, I do have some sheaths or some of the coverings that you can use to make rope. Before Razi was here at Zen Center, I had another dog that I was taking care of named Eric. He was a big dog, and he ate science diet dog food, which was his dry dog food. But then at Tassajara one time, somebody, some other dog, I guess for Zori, they bought canned dog food. So Eric just ate the can. He's got his own can opener. Huh? He didn't eat the can, I mean, he just punctured the can. He opened the can with his teeth. He didn't eat the can, he ate the dog food. But please don't puncture, don't eat this can.

[32:04]

If you want to look at this, does anybody want to look at this? Here it is. So Shushan says, bamboo shoots will eventually become bamboo. But if you use them now for bamboo rope, can you make them serve the purpose? So please translate that into English. What does that mean here for you? Yes. Well, on the literal level, The bamboo eventually will be tough enough to use for purposes that involve resistance. But when it's still a shoot, it's too tender and can't do work. So it's a discussion of maturation and developing virtue, which has a root meaning, strength.

[33:08]

Or power. What? It sounds like he's talking about the actualization potential. Uh-huh. So... Okay, so that's... How's that? Yeah? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I was questioning whether this is implying that there's another purpose besides enlightenment, or that something has to accompany it by itself, doesn't serve the purpose, that there is a goal to human life. Another purpose. That's more grounded than just a realization. Yeah. So what might that be? Well, if I knew.

[34:14]

You don't have to know. Just say what it is. The only answer I could give to Trustee Steinem. What? I said, you don't have to know. Just say what it is. You already said it. You said more grounded. So that's a hint from yourself. Right. So what is it? Just say it and we'll go on. What I would like to say now is in reference to this, is that the only way I could think of this would be that you have to bring dropping off body and mind to the body and mind all the time. And then that would produce this integration, this groundedness. And what would that integration be? You bring the dropping of body-mind to the body-mind. The dropping of body-mind is like enlightenment, right? Right. And then you bring that enlightenment to the body-mind, right? That grounds it, right?

[35:15]

Right. And then what kind of body-mind do you have then? You got the two of them together. Yeah, so what kind of a body and mind is that? It's a dropped-off body and mind, right? And what's a dropped-off body and mind like? Like this. What? So, yeah, you're right. So that's the purpose. The purpose is like this. Are you thinking about something? No, no, this isn't something else, it's like this. This is the point. The dropped-off body and mind got to manifest this insight, right? The insight's important, necessary.

[36:22]

We've got to get the insight, but the insight has to be grounded, has to be embodied. And the embodiment is the dropped-off body and mind. But it has to be embodied. Everybody's body has to be this dropped-off body and mind. It's got to be everybody's body. That's the point. point is that. The insight, the liberation, the liberation is important, but that's not the point. The point is that the liberation be embodied. Because there's already plenty of liberation. It's just not embodied enough for us. I don't understand how it could not be embodied. You don't understand how it could not be embodied? It's all these suffering people. That's how it's not embodied. That's the way it's not embodied. All the misery and cruelty in the world is how it's not embodied. Do you understand now?

[37:23]

Also, you not understanding is also how it's not embodied. But how is it also embodied? We need to understand that. And that must be exactly the same thing. And that's not understanding how it's not embodied, that's understanding how it is embodied. And that's grounding the insight. I'm reading it a little bit differently on the level of the vow, where it feels to me like a bamboo rope. There's something about, so Bodhisattva makes a vow to forego this enlightenment, right? To stay a little younger than that? To forego the enlightenment?

[38:28]

To stay, to stay, to continue to be stayed by life. The Bodhisattva vows to continue to be stayed by life, yeah. It's just sort of reading it as if the bamboo rope is part of serving the purpose. If you use it now, if you use it young, as it were, as he's describing, then you're serving the purpose of fulfilling that. That's part of the process. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So maybe you could be ahead of schedule and be, no? I don't feel like ahead of schedule. Ahead of Shushan's schedule. Ahead of waiting for things to be mature.

[39:30]

There is a maturing business, right? I was actually reading it as though Shushan was not saying the opposite of what I'm saying. You were... What he's saying is saying that. Oh, that Shushan's saying what you're saying. So what's Shushan saying? That even though bamboo shoots will eventually become bamboo, if you use the young... What was it called? shoots now for rope, then that is making themselves... Where does he say that? I'm just reading it with a different turn to it. I know, but where does he say that? If you use them now for that route, can you make no certain purpose? My reading of it is that there's an implied yes, you can. Oh, I see. Uh-huh. No, that you can use the rope to serve the purpose. You do use the rope to serve the purpose.

[40:34]

That's not... If you use them now, you can use them to serve the purpose. Rather than if you use them now, you won't be able to use them later to serve the purpose. That you ought to wait and mature. You're saying, he's not saying you should wait and let them mature. He's not saying that. Is that what you think he's saying? Yes. Okay, so if he's saying that, then... How come the other teacher says, later on you'll be enlightened on your own? Looks like at least he set himself up for that. The other teacher seems to be saying, aren't you going to be enlightened later? Isn't that what it looks like? He says, you're good, you'll be enlightened later. Not now, not right now. Not on this line. Later, down a few inches, you'll be enlightened.

[41:39]

Over there, you'll be enlightened. Later on. Okay? On your own. Ablaberta? Excuse me, but what you say may be true, but I don't know if Shushan's saying that, or I don't know if he's talking like that. It doesn't look like he's talking like that. Now, he might be like, this might be ironic. he might be ironically postponing his enlightenment. And maybe Jin Chan knows it's irony and it's ironically saying later on. Could be. But it looks to me like he's saying later. Roberta? Responding to an earlier discussion, but the word that keeps coming up in my mind is responsibility. Responsibility. I want to go back to that. We're talking about being embodied, so once you get embodied, the restrictions are staying, and there's a responsibility to liberate it, right, to liberate the conditions.

[42:40]

And also, very early on, when you were talking about body and self... Whose responsibility is it to liberate it? Whose responsibility? Would you say there's no responsibility? Would I say there's no responsibility? Yeah, I would. But, you know, that's in line that there's no birth either. But, you know, even though I might say that, I still ask, you know, whose responsibility is it? I'm not sure, but just maybe the phrase responding comes back. Responding, yeah, yeah. being able to respond. But somehow there's a nuance in the word responsibility of that somebody has the responsibility. Like that it's the onus of somebody or the burden of somebody. Yeah, like who's responsible for that? Who did that? What individual? Rather than how did we all contribute to this thing happening?

[43:46]

Now, a vow to liberate all beings doesn't necessarily mean that I think I'm going to do it. Like in the Diamond Sutra, the Buddha says, did I say I was going to liberate all those beings when I said, you know, I'm going to liberate all those beings? Did I mean I was going to do it, Subuddhi? Subuddhi says, no, you didn't mean that. You wouldn't say that. So if Buddha wouldn't say it, you wouldn't say it either, right? Buddha's not saying, I'm going to liberate the beings. So when we say, I vow to liberate beings, we don't mean I'm going to do it. But we also don't put ourselves outside the process either. So I'm not responsible to liberate beings, but I'm living a life of vow to liberate all beings. Now, we don't want to back off of our devotion and commitment to that process but we also got to be careful not to make it too personal.

[44:50]

Yeah, and say that I'm responsible because it's actually, it's liberation from that attitude that we're talking about. Holly? How do you know when it's time to make rope? You know it's time to make rope when you're making rope. No, when you're making the rope, you know it's time to make rope. Well, you could try to make rope with the chutes, but they're too tender. You're right, you could. And if you were making rope with chutes, you'd be making rope, though, and you'd find out what kind of rope you'd have. But I don't think, really, you'd think, oh, now, you don't necessarily think, oh, now I know it's time to make rope, and then you make rope. Because some people say... oh, now it's time to make rope, and then they don't make rope. But they think, oh, it's time to make rope.

[45:54]

Thinking it's time to make rope, or saying, now I see it's time to make rope, that's not the same as making the rope. I think the time to make rope is when you make rope, and you don't know necessarily it's time to make rope. But there is a time to make rope. And I think the time to make rope is when we make rope. And sometimes people try to make rope with bamboo shoots. And then maybe they think that it's time to make rope. You could have the thought, it's time to make rope, going to making rope with bamboo shoots, but it wouldn't be time to make rope. It would be time to mix vegetables and hopefully eat the rope if it didn't work as rope, so you wouldn't have to compost it. But on the other hand, if you didn't think it's time to make rope, but you were suddenly making rope, and it actually was rope,

[46:57]

then that would be the time to make rope. I would say. So are you saying that embodiment comes without a conscious awareness, that you just step into it? No, not necessarily. You could think, oh, it's time to make rope, and then thinking that it's time to make rope, I would say, is not... Making rope. And it's not the time to make rope to think that you're making rope without making the rope. Like you sit there and say, I think it's time to make rope, I think it's time to make rope, I think it's time to make rope, but no rope making. I say that's not the time to make rope. Because it's not being made. Okay? But you could be not, have no thought of making, you could be thinking, time to make rope, and that's, what we really have there is it's time to think about making rope. Because that's what you're doing. and you're perfectly successful at thinking it's time to make rope, okay? Then you start to maybe continue to think it's time to make rope, and you're making rope.

[48:00]

So I would say the making rope that's happening shows that it's time to make rope. But you wouldn't have to think at that time it's time to make rope while you're making the rope. And as a matter of fact, a lot of people who are making rope might not be thinking it's time to make rope. And matter of fact, I would say usually in this particular practice of, you know, working for the welfare of beings, usually you're not thinking, I'm working for the welfare of beings when you're working for the welfare of beings. You're just making a rope. You're just working for the welfare. You don't usually think, oh, I'm helping these people. You just are. You're just doing your service. You're not necessarily thinking, oh, I'm doing this service. But you can also think, I'm doing this service, but that's not doing the service, that's thinking of doing the service. So it's not that you don't have conscious awareness while you're making rope, because making rope involves conscious awareness, but the conscious awareness might have never involved, it's time to make rope.

[49:03]

It might never involve that. It's time to save beings. It might never happen, but it could. And if it happens at the same time, then it's just talking at the same time. But there's no indication there's no indication by which this work is done. So, also, right around the place in the Diamond Sutra where the Buddha says, I'm not saying I'm saving these people, he also says, is there any dharma by which I have attained the until past perfect enlightenment? It's too young. Yeah, it doesn't have the fiber. I mean, if it grows later on, it can be made pure power? After the shoots come up, you can go look at the bamboo in front of my house, after the shoots come up a little bit, when the shoots first come out of the ground, they don't have those nice little wrappings. They've got to get bigger before the wrappings start to form.

[50:06]

When they get taller, then as they start to get taller, they start to form wrappings, and the wrappings fall off, and the wrappings have, you know, have thread in them, basically. They have this length that you can connect them to each other and pleat them together and make rope out of them. Cellulose. Huh? Cellulose. But it has some length to it. These have cellulose in them too, I think, but there's not enough length to make a rope out of them. They're too short. Just funny, if you open that can, it can serve the other purpose. Yes, it serves another purpose, that's right. Yes. I don't understand how Shushan's answer relates to the first question. You don't understand how Shushan's question relates to the answer to the first question?

[51:11]

Would someone please explain to her how it relates to the first question? I have an idea. I don't know if that's right, but it seems like he's saying that he's not ready to answer the question. Maybe he's a bamboo shoot, and he's not a bamboo ready to make a croak yet. That's the way I read it. Well, you mean he's saying, I'm not ready to answer the question. Right. But your question is, do you see how it's an answer to the question, if that's the answer? I could see that. It could be one. Yeah. Stuart? So I think that what he's saying echoes the girl, Antisha's answer, that someone who has insight but not maturity cannot be fully liberated from life for lack of maturity by reason of habits and lack of virtue, lack of strength.

[52:23]

In the same way that bamboo, when it's still a shoot, doesn't have integrity under under pressure. You can't do anything with it that puts pressure on it or that applies force to it. Left to itself, it has an opportunity to mature and then you can use it in a way that requires strength. But in the state of being a bamboo shoot, you can't do anything in the same way that someone who has insight but not maturity of character and has overcome habits and accumulated virtue cannot manifest and fully actualize the insight into the emptiness of the world.

[53:26]

Now, doesn't that seem reasonable? And isn't that what Shishan's saying? So isn't Shishan giving a reasonable answer? Well, I don't see... I'm assuming that when Jim Shon says, clearly knowing the unborn nature of life, he's talking about the situation where someone does have that strength and authority. Well, again, there's two ways to understand it, right? But the way Shushan's answering it is he's saying, he's saying, if the person stayed by life or hindered by life in some way, or even supported by life, you know, all still involved in it, how would that be? And so you could just understand that Shushan's saying the person's not mature, okay, so they're not yet ready to perform certain functions of bamboo. They have some of the functions of bamboo. They have the sprout. Maybe the insight is the sprout. Okay?

[54:27]

Which is very tasty. Yes? So then, clearly knowing that could just be the insight. Yeah, it is an insight. But not the conturing. But not the conturing. That's one way to understand what he's saying. And that seems the way the Shushan understood it. And that's the way the girl understood it when Manjushri asked. So the commentator sets it up so that you have Manjushri asking it and the girl answering it. And then after that, he quotes Shushan. And then he says, the commentator says, bamboo rope is made from covering of bamboo. Like I said, the covering doesn't, those nice kind of, they're yellow. When the bamboo comes up, it's green, right? But when it gets taller, these beige or yellow wrappings form around it, and those you can use to make a rope on the more mature bamboo. They can use to tie things up.

[55:30]

Bamboo shoots are tender and have no strength. Green bamboo has strength, and has that wrapping, while the bamboo shoe strength is not yet mature, and it cannot be used for rope. Okay? So, the commentator seems to be supporting that Shushan's giving a reasonable answer, right? Doesn't that make sense? But the master says later on, Yes. Yes. When he's talking here, that makes it sound like, for me, that there's like a duality situation, like you can't get there until it grows up. Yeah, it does sound like that, doesn't it? Yeah, in some sense, there's a non-duality from the beginning. But the question's set up in such a way as it's going to be hard to cut through.

[56:34]

He's kind of, I don't know, he's kind of like teasing duality out of the situation, even when there's insight by the question. But you can have the understanding that there's non-duality all the way through this thing, all the way through this story. Okay? But let's just do this next part, okay? And that is, he says later on, and then Shushan says, I'm just this way. What's your meaning? And he says, this is the monastery superintendent's quarters. That is the cook's quarters. Okay. How is Jinshan not falling into steps and stages by saying, later on you'll be enlightened? How is he not doing it?

[57:38]

He might be saying, the way you're talking, you're postponing your enlightenment. That's not later, that's not now. It's not now. He might be just saying that you're saying it's not now. The way you're talking, you're saying it's not now. Because that's what he's saying, isn't it? He's saying not now, he's saying later. Not so much your enlightenment, but later you're going to be able to serve your function. You're saying that later you will. So yes, according to what you're saying, then later you'll be serving the function. And he says, well, I'm just, that's how I am. Okay? And he's pretty reasonable, isn't he? Well, I was going to say that, I mean, he's also saying, I'm just this way, might be a way to say, Well, I also see that enlightenment is right now.

[58:40]

I'm just this way. So I'm saying later, but I'm also saying it's like this, too. He could be saying that? So you'd be trying to go on both sides. He could have recovered it at that point. Okay? Okay. All right. Okay. Let's see you do it now. Let's see you... Yes? I think that because if the teacher is... He's basically... The teacher... mirrors him. And so he can drop... He mirrors the teacher, too. Yes. Because the teacher set him up by the first question. So he doesn't have to be falling for what he said as dualistic. He could just be saying, oh, the teacher's setting up this way, so I'll give this reasonable answer because you're asking me this reasonable question. So I'll give you the reasonable answer. But he doesn't have to necessarily think that. But still the teacher could say, the nature of your question is you're setting up some future time. But the teacher doesn't have to think that he thinks that really he's setting up a future time.

[59:41]

Again, he could be being ironic. Of course you perfectly mirrored me now in the present, and there's no sense of duality here, and later on you'll be enlightened by the nature of your answer. So you can read each stage as them not at all postponing anything, either one of them. So you could understand he's saying, okay, you set this question up. I mirrored it with this nice answer. Now you're telling me that you've tricked me by this leading question. And, of course, I know you didn't think you tricked me and I wasn't tricked. And I'm just like this. Now let's see you do it. And then he says what he said. What's that? Yeah.

[60:53]

The last line is saying inattachment flowers blossom and inattachment flowers fall and in detachment or dislike weeds flourish. That's what the last line sounds like to you? How'd you get that? It was to your channeling it. Stuart? And now I'm nervous because Pam sees it that way. I see it as him saying, this is the setup. It's more or less in agreement with what Susan said before. His response is, this is the setup. I'm not saying it has any intrinsic reality. I'm not saying it has any abiding nature. But the setup is like this. And he gives the example in terms of an entirely relative

[61:57]

entirely arbitrary designations. Conventional designations. They're not entirely arbitrary. They are in a monastery, after all. But it's a conventional thing. It's a convention, and using the convention as an analogy, he says, this is the basic set. The basic setup is we understand, we penetrate deeply the unborn nature of birth and death. And we are stayed by life. We are both supported by and limited by life. That's the second. And that's sort of what you were saying, Pam? Yeah, I was saying that what's similar to me in the two lines is something like, this is our human life. What are the two lines that are similar? Inattachment. Blossoms all in an ability to spread.

[63:02]

Oh, I see now. This is the one on the stairs, the superintendent's quarters, this is the cook's quarters. So this is our life. We do have a difference between the real attenuator and the kitchen. Or, in fact, same with the last line, yes, we do have these attachments on the kitchen. With a lovely acceptance of that. I think, in a way, he's saying that you're not this way just yet by saying, this is a monastery, superintendents quarters, that is this quarter. So he's saying, this is what that is, and that's what that is. You're not this way just yet. Maybe he's not saying it mean, but his other response might be just like, no, you're not that way. He wouldn't say that to him. That would be very helpful to his practice, I think.

[64:04]

Ms. Fueyiko? I guess the first thing I want to say is I'm reading the line, later on you'll be enlightened on your own, as not necessarily implying that you're not now. And there are differences, as Ambrose said, in the conventional world. which is the world we're kind of talking about. And so... So what's he saying when he's saying, if he's not saying what you said he might not be saying, what is he saying when he says later on? What's he saying? Well, I see that as later on you'll also be enlightened, so you don't really have to worry about that. You're enlightened now, you'll be enlightened later, but we're not really talking about that. In the conventional world there are differences, and when you take... the vow to have a purpose, the vow to be a bodhisattva, the vow to be a rope, to tug other people out of their suffering. There are certain virtues in this conventional world which are different than the virtues we have with our old habits.

[65:09]

And these virtues, which can be cultivated, you know, you'll be enlightened the whole time, don't worry about it. But there are also virtues that need to be cultivated if you want to be a rope to help pull other people out. Right, but isn't that what Shushan just said? Yes, I think that's what Shushan said. That's what Shushan said, so why would... What's the point in Jinshan saying it again? Which lines we're talking about? I thought you were talking about later on, you'll be... I thought you were talking about later on. Well, basically... Because what you just said sounded like what this line before... with a little bit more emphasis on, you know, don't worry. Actually, that interpretation, I was kind of relating to the entire thing. Oh, the entire thing. Right, so it starts out... Okay, fine, fine. Okay. Now, if that's the interpretation of the entire thing, what's the other interpretation of the entire thing?

[66:11]

There's many. Yeah, well, what's the other one? That's not like that previous one. Yes? Did you say worry? Worry? Don't worry. Okay, worry. And what does worry mean, Pat? I was going to say the answer to what's the other interpretation. Right. I'd say you've been the goal for a long time. You've been the goal? For a long time. You've been the goal. We've been the goal for a long time. So worry. After all, this was the goal, we ought to worry. Right. So now, so now, now, now you got a problem. Can I ask Onvo a question about what he said?

[67:18]

Onvo, when you were saying this is the setup, can you set up as in like a bruise or set up as in this is the form? Actually, I think subconsciously I meant to echo that set up as a ruse. This is a show, but that's sort of a background echo. The main meaning is this is the structure of the situation. This is how the situation is structured. This description is precisely it. So it transforms the question from a question about how did it get this way or where does it go from there to a question of how is it?

[68:21]

It's like this. It's a self-answering question. This is the how of it. Shushan won't meet his teacher directly. Shushan won't meet his teacher directly. He won't meet his teacher, Jinshan? What would it be like if he, what would he have done if he had met his teacher directly? He'd be roped. What do you mean by that? He wouldn't delay being himself in that moment. Right. And do you think he'd delay being himself? Yes. You do? Yeah.

[69:22]

So are you not meeting your teacher directly? I'm starting to. Later on you will. Are you about to speak, Linda? Yes. If called upon to do so? Yes. Yes? I was wondering about Master Jin Shant and Master Chu Shant. Mr. Jin and Mr. Shu? Are they more brothers or they actually don't know their relationship exactly? Are they equal? Yeah, it's hard to tell. They're both... It's Priest Jin-chan and Priest Shu-chan. Their titles are the same.

[70:24]

It isn't like Master and... They both have the same title. in this story. And I looked in the chart for them. And let's see, what's their relationship? So Shushan studied with Dushan. So Shushan's Dharma brother to, you know, Fa Yin. Fa Yin, Wei Yin. And so it looks like Shushan and Jinshan are Dharma brothers. Doesn't it? Huh? Well, they're both right here, right?

[71:24]

Yeah. Yeah, so, see, they're both, they're on either side of Fa-Yen on the chart, so they both studied with Dachshund. So they're kind of Dharma brothers in a way, you know, lineage-wise. And in the commentary on page 295, it appears that they both studied together with Tzitzal. Yes. Oh, excuse me, I said Dushan, I mean Ditsang. They're Dharma's successors of Ditsang. Jizo, you know, like Jizo, like Jizo Bosatsu. Earth Store, the name of the temple was Earth Store, Monastery. Dot com?

[72:25]

Dot com? So, yes, Daniel? It sounds like these two masters have two eyes and one head. They're playing together. They should both get a kick, though, for making waves. Who's going to kick him? Who's going to kick him? So Jiaofan's eulogy is like this. Pity that my mind is clear, but my power is insufficient. I'm right here. Where are you? Pity that my mind is clear, but my power insufficient.

[73:30]

Time after time, seeds produce manifest patterns. Like a person gone crazy from wine, no sooner is sworn off drink than finding some fine liquor. Oh, shit. Okay, this too is talking about strength being insufficient. I confess that the ancients were so familiar with the doctrinal vehicle that whenever they spoke out, it was in accord with the scriptures. Now what's that saying? the doctrinal, you know, this I fear, you know. But even take away I fear and just say the ancients were so familiar with the doctrinal teachings that whenever they spoke, they were speaking in accord with the teachings.

[74:39]

The teachings like, reasonable teachings like, even if you have insight, There still needs to be maturity to go with it, right? Okay, we're already going over that. So he's saying that when this guy celebrated whatever he was celebrating, he was echoing the scriptural teachings which we've just talked about, namely insight may or may not be accompanied by wisdom. development of virtue. Or insight may or may not be accompanied by purification of old habits. Okay? But there's a little nuance here maybe, like they always talk like that. They can't help it. They're so familiar with those teachings that they keep thinking in those terms. Those terms like insight needs to be accompanied by virtue. Which of course is true, right?

[75:43]

In order to manifest the insight, it has to be accompanied by virtue to bring it into the world, right? Doesn't that make sense? And that's a traditional teaching. You can't just have insight. You have to also practice in the conventional world. You can't develop virtue in emptiness. But virtue without realization of emptiness is impure. So if you realize emptiness, you still have to then return to the world of duality to accumulate virtue. And then the virtue in combination with your realization of emptiness manifests in the world. This is like a doctrinal teaching, which this guy's familiar with. So there's his verse. And then he says, I fear. I confess. I confess the angels were so familiar.

[76:46]

Jinshan wanted the saying picked up and turned over. That's why he didn't approve and said to Shushan, you'll be enlightened on your own later on. He didn't approve, but it doesn't mean he didn't really approve. He just wanted to see something happen. So you do approve, of course, but in order to get certain things happen, you push a little bit sometimes. Xu Shan said, my view is just like this. What is yours? You push back. Then Mr. Xu says, then Mr. Xu first sat still where it's level on all sides, full in all ways. Mr. Jin said, Rousting him must have another road of life.

[77:52]

He finally pointed out, this is the superintendent's quarter, this is the cook's quarter. But tell me, does he understand the unborn nature of birth or not? Is he stayed by birth or not? Xushan then bowed. He studied the living word, not the dead word. This is no different from the cook has gone down into the pantry. Everybody says that Fayan's school is of one flavor. So Fayan, you know, again, he's the... On the chart, he's like their Dharma brother. They're situated on both sides of him. All three of these people are Dharma brothers, right? But Fayan... is the most famous of the three. So he's the founder of the school, one of the Zen schools, one of the Zen houses. So everybody says that the Fa Yan school is of one flavor, equal reality, the mystery within the essence.

[78:57]

Please consider the foregoing story. Tiantang saw this story as extraordinary and special. so he produced it in verse with his whole heart. Here we go. Empty and at ease, without deference, without dependence, lofty and serene, untrammeled, home and country peaceful. Those who arrive are rare, A little bit of power divides ranks and grades. The fluid, clear mind and body, is beyond right and wrong. Right and wrong ended, standing alone on earth, there is no beaten track. Sounds good.

[80:11]

Nice. So could you say that this is the superintendent's quarters, that is the cook's quarters, is having realization and coming back into the phenomenal world? You sure could.

[81:14]

But couldn't you also say that having insight or realization and coming back in the world is the bamboo shoots thing? Bamboo shoots thing. Bamboo shoots thing being not ready. What Jin Chan said, I mean what Xu Shan said, couldn't that be realization and coming back into the world? I mean the question of No, I mean, couldn't there be insight, realization, come back in the world and say, bamboo shoots will eventually become bamboo. But if you use them now for bamboo, can you make them serve the purpose? Couldn't that be coming back in the world? That's pretty worldly, isn't it? Eating? Eating?

[82:22]

Well, talking. He's talking. Pretty worldly to talk, don't you think? What could be more worldly than talking? Yes, yes? Also, I think that Jushan is not putting down coming back and being in this world. Pardon? Who's not doing what? Jushan. Who? Jushan. Jushan? Who's Jushan? Shushan. Shushan? Yeah. Oh, Shushan's not putting down coming back into the world? Yes. Right. Maybe he's just coming back into the world. That's what I just said. Couldn't he be an example of coming back into the world? Yeah. So both of them could be examples of coming back into the world, couldn't they?

[83:24]

If they're Zen masters and they're talking, aren't they examples of coming back into the world? That's what Zen masters are. They're examples of coming back into the world. They've been out, they've come back. But before the class is over, I just wanted to ask, have you people come back? Have you come back into the world? or you've never been out of the world? I'm right here just now. What's the meaning of your question? My question is, have you come back to visit us? My head hurts asking. She's so... She's so... Did he come back? Yeah. Well, thank you, Daniel. Even though your head hurts. Did you all come back to the world? Is that what you're here for?

[84:29]

To help me out? Huh? Did each one of you come here to help me out? Huh? Is that what you came here for? It was worth 40 hours. Are you a member? Vernon? Well, I want to go back to this. This is the monastery superintendent quarters. That's the stages of a bamboo, isn't it? I mean, the cook is not quite at the stage of a monastery superintendent. Well, you really are coming back to the world. Thank you. You're going way down there. Almost in hell. Thank you, Vernon. We needed somebody to go that low. Are you pointing at somebody?

[85:33]

No. You're just playing with something. Liz... It's interesting to think about, but coming back, it literally means as a baby. As a baby, yeah. A fresh little bosatsu. With all its confusion and, I mean, like Patty was saying, it's knowing, but also it's not knowing and not... not moving in the world of adults, but having to deal with this world. It just knows that with the babies here, you know, they're so tender. When you people came back, could you talk? Yeah. Is there another question? Someone had attained enlightenment.

[86:36]

Is it a different kind of baby? I don't know if it's the same kind of baby. Is it a different kind of baby or a same kind of baby? Like the Tibetans have all this about certain babies. Uh-huh. Or not your run-of-the-mill ordinary like Zen. Zen baby. Yeah. Yeah, so now Liz, too, has really come back. Welcome. We need somebody to do the dirty work. Any questions on this verse? What, are you trying to stay pure? You want to be the head monk or something? Trying to look smart by not asking any questions that would make us think you're dirty?

[87:39]

If you have any questions about... Oh, yes, Linda? This isn't about the verse. It says, Gene Sheldon wanted the same, picked up and turned over. Great. And the way I understand that now, partially from the birth baby, is that he just wanted to play with his... He didn't play. Right. Definitely. There was no other purpose than to just bring forth the Dharma together. Right. He wasn't trying to teach him or point anything out in particular. No. No. That's why they come back, is to play. They just come back to play. That's what they come back to. They come back to play. And what a playground. They come back to the roughest playground in the neighborhood. I mean, they don't go to the moon. You know, things are relatively peaceful up there. Nobody can talk. They come into the realm of language and ideas, the realm of super powerful enchantment.

[88:50]

They get a body that, you know, they get this kind of body. But that's the best playground around. So that's definitely what they come for. Anyway, if you have any questions on this verse, you can ask them next week. Because we're going to have another class maybe, if you all come to help me. And if you don't have any questions on the verse, and start reading the next case. If nobody asks any question on that verse, we'll start the next case next week. Otherwise, we'll, you know, visit various hell realms and human realms to study this verse to see what, you know, how come... The commentary thinks that Tien Tung thought this was a great case.

[89:53]

So he wrote this verse with his whole heart. So if you want to talk about the verse, we will. Otherwise, we'll go to case 71. Okay? I really appreciate that after... clearly seeing the unborn nature of life, of birth, that you're here in this silly class. And did, I guess some people have already got case 71? No, that's 78. Did some of you already get, most of you got them? Because there's not very many copies left. Some of you already got some? That's the one we just made. Well, we're on 70 now, so we don't have 71 yet. None of us have it. Let's do 70 again next week. Well, we're going to start there, and we'll see if there's anything to do. I'm only baffled by it still. Oh, you are? Absolutely.

[90:55]

Oh, wow. Thanks, Dermot. Isn't that nice of him to be baffled for you? You're grounding us in this ordinary world. Thank you. He doesn't even like my singing.

[91:14]

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