Last week we had a kind of overview of three major aspects of the practice of renunciation. I gave a brief comment on each type and then we went into some detail on the first. So do you remember what I called the three types, or the three aspects? Primary, middle, and grade. And primary is what, briefly? Getting started. Uh-huh. That was brief. Nancy? Nancy? Getting started, hoping to attain something, uh-huh. Hoping to attain virtue.

[01:05]

Hmm? Giving up. Giving up what? Giving up what? Everything. No, not everything. Yeah, giving up attachment, but not quite to everything. Giving up attachment to what, probably? At this stage. Stuff. Stuff. Yeah, stuff. Yeah. Stuff. What else? Huh? Views. Not yet. No. Still have some views. Yes? Attachment to the practices. Attachment to the practices. Uh-huh. So stuff, and what kind of stuff? Material stuff? What other kind of stuff? Yeah, give up attachment to your reputation.

[02:06]

So giving up attachment to material stuff and psychological stuff. For example, giving up attachment to feeling good. which means being happy when you're good, and also it means usually if you're attached to feeling good, that means that you feel unhappy when you don't feel good. But you do feel happy when you feel good. That's one thing good about being attached to good feelings is that you feel really happy. Actually, you feel a little bit happier when you feel good when you're attached to it than if you just feel good without attachment, which is one of the One of the benefits of attachment is you feel really good when you feel good. So you go up way high when you finally get what you want. But then, of course, because you're attached to feeling good, when you feel bad, you usually feel pretty bad. And you feel worse than just feeling bad.

[03:07]

So you go higher and lower. It's kind of like the effects of global warming. It's not just that it's warmer, it's that other things are more extreme, right? It gets colder too, warmer and colder. And you get more and more severe weather, more droughts and more floods. So it's like attachment is the basis of global warming, and attachment creates this bigger variation in misery than just pain and pleasure. And then so at this level, you're going to give up. When you achieve this state, you're going to give up attachment. Or not you're going to give up, but there's going to be a renunciation or release of being concerned with whether you're in pain or pleasure, whether you're spoken well of or not, whether you're talked to well or not.

[04:10]

And what was the other one? There's reputation, there's the way people talk to you, there's your feelings, and what's the other one? Gaining and losing. Gaining and losing. Getting something. Or not getting something. So those are eight basic kinds of worldly kinds of thinking that we, a lot of us, spend time with. So part of what happens in the first level of practice is you're practicing virtues. You actually... This is not for... This level of renunciation doesn't happen unless you're practicing virtues. And not only that, but practicing virtues to get something. So this level of renunciation partly recognizes that it is necessary to practice at the beginning to get something. I don't know if necessary at the beginning. You could start practicing not to get something and then later move into practicing to get something. But you have to go through the stage. You have to get involved.

[05:12]

in practicing in hopes of some reward. You have to practice virtues in hopes of getting some reward. In the context of practicing virtues to get some reward, part of what you get is you get this gift of the teaching. Part of the benefit of the practicing of virtues is you hear the teaching. And when you hear the teaching, for example, the teaching about these eight types of worldly thinking, and particularly when you hear about the teaching of interdependence, there is a release from attachment to the virtue practices and to trying to get something, and to the practices themselves. Which is quite, that level of renunciation, it's a major event in spiritual development.

[06:23]

So I'm bringing up like three different aspects of it, that there's freedom from attachment to the practices, the practices of virtue, and there's also freedom from practices of non-virtue. There's hearing the teaching because you're practicing virtue. And here in the teaching you overcome attachment to these worldly thoughts and also the other thing that happens is that because you're not attached to the practices themselves, you don't have some limit about what practices might be available. and what practices might be good, you start to be able to see some things that might be helpful that you wouldn't be able to see before when you're attached to the things you already see are good. You start to be open to the people who aren't practicing the same way as you are good.

[07:29]

You know, there's something good about them even though they're not doing the same way as you. And the other thing which I didn't stress last time but today I feel like I should stress is that we need to go through the phase of practicing in hopes of getting a reward. That's part of the field of the practice. Because, in fact, people do practice that way. So we have to, like, we have to go to that realm. As bodhisattvas, we have to go to the realm of practicing to get something. Now, for some of us, it's not something we have to worry about because it's pretty natural to... to practice to get something. So it's not so hard, but some people, yeah. Do you include your very noble kind of reward, like virtue, especially if you want to attain some sort of virtue?

[08:32]

Yes. Yes, that would be... If you consider it a reward, then that would be for you a reward that you'd be practicing in hopes of achieving. And that would be... That's a good example. Most people, if they're practicing virtues, they hope that they'll be able to attain virtue. If you were able to practice virtue without trying to even expect to attain virtue, the reward of attaining the virtue, you're trying to learn how to practice. If you could do that, well, great. Then you've actually moved to the second phase. without going through the first. But you have to go back to the first then because the second phase depends on the first. You can't actually skip over the first and really do the second one. So, attaining virtue is a fantastic thing to attain because it's, you know, it does bring rewards. It's not that it doesn't.

[09:34]

It's not that you don't improve and stuff like that. It's just that It's just that whether you do or not, you want to. And you want to get that. And we have to go through that phase. And not only do we have to go through the phase, but I would say ahead of time that when you get to the great renunciation, you have to be able to come back to the beginning and go through and be with the mind that's practicing to get something. You can't, like, stay away from that in the highest, in the greatest renunciation. But anyway, the second level, the middle level, depends on the, in the first level you're practicing in hopes of getting virtue, of getting happiness, and so on. You're not You're hoping for a happiness that's better than the happiness that, like, comes and goes with pain and pleasure.

[10:38]

You're looking for a better happiness, actually, than that one. You're looking for spiritual happiness, which doesn't bounce around with, you know, getting stuff and losing stuff. It's a practice. You're not practicing at the level where you recognize that, you know, depending on getting stuff and trying to avoid losing stuff... is not a stable way to go for happiness because things will be taken away from us. We cannot avoid that. Of course, things do come too, but to be always concerned with getting them and avoiding losing them, this is not a reliable route. So it's a spiritual practice on that level that you overcome that, but you still wish to attain virtue. Okay? you wish to but still what the renunciation is not that you wish to attain virtue the renunciation is that actually what you get over that and you move on to the next stage i hear the word virtual a lot tonight what's virtual called like giving you know giving to beings

[11:57]

Joyfully giving whatever people need, whatever will be helpful. Generosity. Generosity, yeah. So there's like six of them or something? There's five. Oh. And then there's five basic categories in the Bodhisattva path. Next one is the precepts, to practice the precepts. So you practice the precepts in various ways, but at this level you practice the precepts like as virtue practices. In other words, you try to practice telling the truth, not taking something that's not given, not harming beings in any way, total nonviolence, hopefully. Get to that point. Not intoxicate your body, mind, or others. Not misusing your sexual energies. Not speaking up false of others in any way that would create, you know, disharmony among beings. Not praising yourself and, you know, looking down on others. not harboring ill will, not hoping any harm for anybody, not being possessive, and not talking about the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.

[13:01]

So those are bodhisattva precepts. And there's other ones too, right? That's just one rendition. So to work on those practices, that's another virtue. Another virtue is practicing patience. So, of course, that comes in handy with pain. so that you can start to let go of any fixation on avoiding the coming of uncomfortable sensations or the pain of losing things. Because it does sometimes hurt to lose things. You're still at that phase, maybe, and you're practicing virtues to help you not freak out when you do lose things. And then in that state of practice, and then you also practice enthusiasm, and you also practice concentration. So you do all these, these are virtue practices that you're doing and helping others do because you're practicing giving, so you give them all these practices. So you're doing this very wonderful virtue, all these virtue practices. And in that context, you start to hear the Dharma better and better.

[14:02]

You start to hear the teaching and see the teaching. And you're doing these practices in order to get good out of them. and hoping that you will get good at them, hoping other people will get good at them, and hoping you'll get rewards. Okay? So that's part of the way we have to practice, and that's also what we have to get over. And so then we move on to the next stage. Yes. I mean, we may never move on to the next stage, but one might move on to that stage. So I'm not rushing you into the next stage. Yes? You said something before about interdependence. I didn't catch it. Yes. You hear the teacher, you know, you're practicing these virtues, let's say. You're practicing these virtues. You're practicing lots of virtues pretty wholeheartedly. And part of practicing virtues is that you tend to get more spiritual opportunities.

[15:11]

That's one of the rewards which you get, which you wanted to get. And so you start to hear the teaching of interdependence, which is also the teaching that things don't have independent existence. So you start to see that none of these practices exist independently. You start to see that they're interdependent. And you start to see that you and the other people who are practicing are interdependent, and you and the people who aren't practicing are interdependent. And this helps you not attach to those practices. And this also helps you not attach to getting a reward. This teaching. And that's the renunciation, the first level of renunciation. Okay? Ready for the second one? We can come back. These are interdependence. It's not like we're going to leave the first one behind. So based on the first one, you have the second one, or the middle one.

[16:14]

And the basic difference at start in the description is that you're still practicing all these virtues as before, but you're practicing the virtues just as wholeheartedly, in some sense more effectively, because you're more relaxed about them now, because you're not attached to them. You've given up some of your limited ideas about them. And on the other side, you're not hoping for reward anymore at all. You're just totally into the practice. And also not hoping for reward, again, that helps you do the practices more fully and you get more rewards. So that's the basic difference between the second one. What's the renunciation here? In some sense, you've already renounced... In the basic description, you've already renounced trying to get anything.

[17:20]

So there's renunciation there. But that's sort of like from the first one. That's part of the first one in a way. What happens when you practice this way is another kind of renunciation over and above. Now what you start to renounce is... the distinction between your suffering and other people's suffering. And even if you don't yet renounce, that can happen at this stage, even if you don't renounce the distinction, you still start to notice that if you don't renounce the distinction, and if you do renounce the distinction, either way, you start to notice that there's no limit to the responsibility of your life. You renounce the distinction between your suffering and other people's suffering and you start to see that there's no limit to your responsibility in this world.

[18:29]

You also understand there's no limit to other people's responsibility. I say people, but other people's minds, really. If there was a renunciation of the distinction between your suffering and other people's suffering, that would also go very nicely with you not worrying anymore about whether you're going to get rewarded. And vice versa, if you give up the distinction between yourself suffering and other people's suffering, that also goes the other way with not worrying about reward. All you're worried about, you're not worried even, you're practicing virtues, and that's the appropriate thing to do if there's not any limit to your responsibility in this world. It doesn't mean you're uniquely responsible.

[19:33]

It means since you're renouncing the distinction between your own suffering and other people's suffering, since you're renouncing that distinction, there's no way for you not to be involved with other people. Now, if you haven't renounced the distinction, then practicing these virtues will bring to your attention that if you hold a distinction between your suffering and others, you start to become aware that that hurts them. And that if they do that, if they hold the distinction, it hurts you. It doesn't hurt you necessarily like damage your practice. It just hurts when you see someone who doesn't really understand that they're connected to you. You might, on your side, not any longer see it that way. But still see that if they do, it hurts you and hurts them.

[20:35]

and hurts others. If you have given up the distinction, but if you have not given up distinction, and you look at that, you start to see how, in some ways, how that hurts other people, how it hurts other beings, how it harms them, for you to be carrying that distinction. So what you renounce at the first level is attachment to the forms of practice, attachment to trying to get anything from them, and therefore attachment to what they can be. Second level, you pronounce the attachment to any kind of limit, boundary on your responsibility to other beings and your involvement with them. So you're free from being concerned about getting a reward for yourself and you're free from worrying about getting a reward for them.

[21:40]

You just work for them and work for yourself without any distinction. You work actually for your involvement with all beings and it's not for self or other. You're not worried about reward anymore. And again, if you, prior to getting to that place, you start to notice the problem of not getting to that place. You start to notice the problem, the pain, anxiety, and so on that happens from that distinction, from that boundary between your suffering and others, if you haven't got there yet. And as you start to get there, little, maybe little bits, you start to notice that that's a relief of suffering. And it's not, again, you're not trying to get more of that for yourself. You just notice that and it gradually just drops away. And this is the second kind of renunciation.

[22:42]

Yeah. You look happy. Isn't it a very powerful factor that you're just wired to feel your own pain and others' pain? There are no nerves. Right, there's no nerve. You don't feel the other person's suffering. So our nervous system is not equipped to feel other people's suffering, basically, I would say. But we do have the equipment to feel our own, and also we have equipment to make a distinction between our own and others'. We can make distinctions between ourself and others and think others are out there independent and therefore we can also think that their suffering is not connected to ours, plus we can also feel like we're not involved with their suffering. So feeling separate from it is one thing and also feeling unresponsible for it is another. Again, I just sort of hint for the next stage is that we have to... This stage makes us really clear that we are responsible for other people's suffering.

[23:56]

Not uniquely, not megalomaniacally. We're just all involved with it, all inseparable from it. This understanding will be necessary when we move into the next phase because in the next phase, it's almost like there's nobody there. So then you might think, well, nobody's responsible. That's why the next phase has to be based on this phase, where here you're not only responsible for your own suffering, you're responsible for mine and everybody's. So we are, by habit, prone to set limits to what we're responsible for. I mean, a lot of people don't even think they're responsible for their own suffering. They think somebody else is. And they're right to that extent. Other people are responsible for your suffering, but that doesn't mean you should blame them, because you are too. And also, you're responsible for theirs, but that doesn't mean you should blame yourself, because they are too.

[24:59]

We share in it, share in the responsibility, really in a big way, without limits, rather than blaming here and there. So this is like, in some sense, we're built to be lawyers and judges. We've got that equipment almost innately, I would say. And we have to learn to give up this affixing responsibility to one place more than another. This phase is to homogenize it, but particularly for yourself, to convince yourself that no matter what happens, even if you can't find anybody to be responsible on some level, you know that the way the mind works is responsible and you're connected to your mind. And everybody else is too. But this is a big, the first step's a big step, this is another big step to actually like

[26:07]

Can you imagine to actually wholeheartedly practice without trying to get anything? That would be amazing, wouldn't it? But again, I think one of the ways you can get to that is through this way of seeing how it hurts yourself and others to make a distinction between your suffering and others. That's a way maybe to sort of help you. Because otherwise, how would it happen? Because right now, we're practicing to get something. So how would that stop? How would we become free of practicing to get something? This opening up. And again, practicing virtues, another aspect, another benefit of practicing virtues, which as I said, everyone looked happy. A lot of people, when they hear about this widening responsibility, say, yikes, I don't want to like... But one of the things about practicing virtues is that one of the benefits is that you actually become so happy... that you can stand to open up to other people suffering more.

[27:12]

And then when you open up and you find out it's not so bad, then you feel even happier. So then you open up more. When you think about it beforehand, you might think, well, geez, would I be able to open up? And when you feel really happy, you say, well, I'll give it a try. Why not? So the bodhisattvas come into the world of suffering not because kind of like, okay, let's go be compassionate. Let's get in there, you know, with those people, you know. It's more like... It's more childlike. Like, hi. Like, you know, let's do it. Let's go see them. Let's go visit those suffering beings. This should be... This should be really interesting. Not necessarily fun, but we feel good that we're going. So that's why virtues in the first phase, virtues in the second phase, and then in the second phase the virtues are stronger because... because you've given up attachment to them. And then as they get stronger and stronger, you get the virtue of getting more and more open to other people suffering.

[28:21]

And as you get more and more open to other people suffering, then you actually get to the point of where you're not trying to get anything anymore. And now you're ready for the next phase. I mean, just about ready. Are you ready? Any more questions about this stage? This stage of practically almost inconceivable openness to all beings suffering? Yes? So there's not even a wish to be free? There is. All through this whole process is a wish to be free. That's not a gaining idea? There's a wish to be free without it being a gaining idea. At first, when you first... When you first wish to be free, it probably still has some gaining idea associated with it. At this middle stage, you still wish to be free even more strongly than before. You're more convinced that this is what you want, and you're working on that more thoroughly than before, but you're now getting more and more purified of the idea that it's going to be a gain and that you want to get it.

[29:31]

You don't think of it as a gain. Again, as I often say, it's difficult for our mind to understand wanting someone to be happy who is not happy at the same time appreciating the way they are right now. So this path is to develop a compassion that's connected to renunciation. so you have compassion you really want everyone to be happy and free of suffering but you have no seeking there you're not seeking something else from what's happening right now many many suffering people you want them all to be happy and you're not seeking something other than this you've given up you've renounced seeking but at the beginning you're still seeking so you get over the seeking in this process You renounce the seeking. And you keep... You were working from the beginning to find ways to benefit all beings through the practice of virtues.

[30:41]

You were working from the beginning like that, but at the beginning there was seeking. Now the seeking is starting to drop away. But there's still a little clinging at this stage. There's not clinging to the practices. grossly, like, you know, rigidly and tightly, like, I'm going to practice this way and this way is better than that way. But there's still a little grasping to the idea of self and other. So you're giving up the distinction between your suffering and other people's suffering, but you haven't yet given up the distinction between yourself and others at this middle stage. but you pretty much have got to the point in the middle stage of not seeking out anything. But there's still a little grasping, in a sense. And now you can move into the next phase where we'll now work on overcoming all grasping. And when we do, then we won't be grasping

[31:46]

the distinction between self and other. We won't be grasping the distinction between enlightenment and delusion. We won't be grasping the distinction between enlightenment and delusion. So when we don't grasp that distinction anymore, then enlightenment is no longer blocked. And it never was blocked. And we see that it wasn't blocked. In other words, we at this point renounce our resistance to this as enlightenment. Or not so much this as enlightenment, but that enlightenment is unblocked by this. This isn't enlightenment, but this doesn't stop enlightenment. Just like, you know, a puddle of water is not the moon. but the moon is not hindered by a puddle of water. A drop of water also is not the moon, but the drop of water doesn't hinder the moon.

[32:53]

The moon is very nicely reflected in a drop of water. And the enlightenment, perfect unsurpassed enlightenment, is very nicely reflected in all of you without changing you at all. You're still a nice little drop of water or a lake or whatever. That's already the case, but until the final level of renunciation, we're kind of resisting it. Because we think, this is different from enlightenment. Well, in a sense, it's true. It is different from enlightenment. I mean, just like a drop of water is different from the moon. But this doesn't hinder enlightenment. The moon's shining right now. someplace, and we're not hindering it at all. But until that renunciation happens, we kind of go, well, you know, whatever, give me a break, or I want a different drop of water for enlightenment to be reflected in, or where is that moon anyway, or I don't know.

[34:06]

Actually, it's not some other place. So the distinction between enlightenment and delusion still can be made, but it's renounced. It's not that it's gone. It's still available. You can still say enlightenment and delusion. You can still say self and other, but you renounce the distinction. So due to that renunciation, you're no longer resisting. And in a sense there's no self separate now because the distinction between yourself and others has been let go of and in some sense there's not really a self there anymore. And also the view of self has been renounced because the view of ego, for example, seems to block enlightenment. It seems to be connected to all kinds of fear and anxiety. So it isn't that we throw our ego out the window.

[35:17]

We just renounce the distinction that makes the ego. We don't grasp it. It's still there. It's just not grasped. And so we stop resisting. We're ready. And then again, we have to be careful at this stage because now there's no others. So you might think, well, No problem. I'm free. I'm free of others because of our interdependence, because of the emptiness of our separation. So I'm free. And that might lead you to not feel responsible, not make you feel like, well, I don't practice virtues anymore. I'm free. And in fact, you are. You are free. You're free of the main thing that's been bothering you all along. That distinction between yourself and others, that's why you're afraid. It's because you think you're separate from the rest of the people and the rest of the frogs. That's why you feel hassled.

[36:20]

You know, like... Like in a recently published book has this example of these people driving down a road on a rainy night and the road's covered with frogs. So, you know, what do you do? Going to drive through the frogs? You're going to squish them. You're going to stop and, like, you know, wait until it stops raining or park your car and call AAA and walk carefully through the frogs. What are you going to do? Got a problem, right? Say, no, I don't have a problem. I just run over the frogs. Well, that's probably the second the middle renunciation won't let you run over the frogs. Because you're all kind of like connected to those frogs. And again, when you start to see the connection fully, you're liberated from your problem with the frogs. But before you're liberated from your problem with the frogs, you're all caught up with the frog's life.

[37:27]

So you can't like just run over them. It doesn't work for you. Because you're responsible for the frogs. And they're responsible for you. And you're practicing virtues for their welfare. But you're still not free. You're still somewhat hindered because you still think the frogs are not you. You think there's actually some other things around in the world called frogs. And the funny thing is that you can't really help save the frogs until you understand that there aren't any. And then when you understand there aren't any, you might think, well, then I don't have to save them. That's why you need the layer before where you feel like, you know, there's no way I can get away from frogs. And so after I know there aren't any other beings called frogs, then I won't like sort of like cop out on my responsibility to be intimate with frogs and liberate them. And now I can do it at the third stage. Not that I can do it, but this understanding, this level of renunciation can save frogs, can save the other.

[38:31]

You can save the other because you realize there isn't another. but you see how once you understand there isn't another you could misunderstand that and withdraw from your challenges of intimacy if you didn't have the previous layer and you wouldn't have that layer unless you had the previous layer which includes you being an ordinary person trying to practice virtues to get something and that's why the last stage you have to come back to the first stage and practice to get things and have meetings and make plans with people to get stuff. But of course, then you get over that. You don't attach to that, even though you're going through the process wholeheartedly of discussing how to get certain virtues and get the consequences of the virtues going here. And then you go round and round.

[39:33]

So that's how they work together in brief. Get the picture, sort of? At the highest stage of renunciation, at the great renunciation, We're not resisting enlightenment anymore. So the moon shines into everything. So we're all set. We're not scared anymore. We have, you know, God is with us. We're not alone anymore. All beings are with us. And not only that, but we're free of them being other. So we're like everybody's in our face, plus we're not scared. We're intimate. We're intimate. We feel that intimacy, that quiet, simple intimacy with all beings. And we have no resistance to being awake. And being awake is basically understanding that you don't get to get anything to be awake. That when you become awake, there's nothing attained.

[40:35]

It's just... like this, except that the one difference is that you don't think you have to get anything, whereas now we think we have to get something. So it's just kind of like more like this than usual. It's like being like this with no resistance to this, which is the same as being like this with no resistance to awakening. So that's the practice of renunciation in those three aspects. and uh... we can keep we can go round and round with this if you want to and i just want to say that uh... so part of what i thought we move on to after maybe next week will be to start to look at how to practice some of these virtues in the context of this renunciation practice and keep looking at the virtue and then checking to see how the renunciation goes with that virtue to help it fulfill itself because again it isn't just that

[41:37]

that you go through these levels of renunciation and then you have this freedom and that's the end of the story. No, you have to come back into practicing virtues again in all the different ways with all the different beings. So enlightenment's not like, you know, a destiny, like you get there and then you're enlightened. Enlightenment's what we call the middle way. It's an ongoing process. It doesn't end. You just keep doing it. Keep going beyond it all the time and getting more and more people involved in it. There's no end to it. There's no annihilation of ignorance and suffering. There's just freedom from it and then that's over. And then there's the next moment to reenact the process again the middle way. So if we would attain these three levels of renunciation, we would enter into Buddha's wisdom and compassion, which is enlightenment.

[42:48]

But then we just continue the process, keep cranking the renunciation wheel, which again, every time we practice renunciation, we become re-immersed in the middle way, re-immersed in Buddha's wisdom and compassion. And that's over. Let's do it again. Is there anything you want to bring up about this? Yes? Is it Melissa? Pardon? The way I'm hearing you talk about this, like once you've really got it, you sort of graduate, you know, is there any, is it fluid?

[43:50]

Do you tend to maybe slip back from middle to, you know, to primary to have to maybe, maybe didn't really get everything that you thought, or is it really that? Well, it's... It's mushier maybe than I talked about, but also it's not linear because in none of these cases is it unidirectional. There are these different phases, and you can distinguish them, and sometimes they might be mushier than others, but sometimes they might be fairly clear. But even if they are clear, it's not that you go from 1 to 2, but 2 corrects 1, and 3 corrects 2, and 2 corrects 3. So you go from two to three, but two also keeps correcting three. So three is more advanced, but two makes sure that three doesn't get off. So it isn't just that you go from step one to step two, but step two continues to inform step three.

[44:54]

And also step three is actually the purification of step two. But in the purification of step two, there can be a divorce from step two. But step two, if it's strong, it keeps poking at step three and says, don't go off in space. Because in fact, that's what, in some ways, what the third stage is like. It's like vast space. The mind becomes like vast space, and in this space, There's no things. There's no, like, things in that space. There's nothing, like, all by itself. There's not, like, a Judith by herself or a Gloria by herself or a Vera by themselves. That's not... The Bodhisattva's mind doesn't hold any locations or fixed things. It has no... There's no abode. You could say, well, that space, so I don't have to, like, plunge into the mud. The second stage says...

[45:57]

And also the thought, hey, I don't have to deal with that stuff anymore, okay? It's like, not only don't have to deal with it anymore, but also, I'm not bothered that I don't have to deal with it anymore. I mean, I'm not guilty about not having to deal anymore. I'm not guilty that somebody's gonna say something to me about it. I mean, nothing bothers you. You're like, you are free. But you might slip into some, like, hedonistic perversion of that, because you've got the equipment to be hedonistically perverse. You didn't lose the equipment, you still have your nervous system, which can say, hey, not only am I free, but I can be a bum too, and nobody can hurt me anymore, because there isn't anybody else. The second phase being established says, come on, knock it off. This is not the point, remember? So it isn't just that you go from two to three, but when you get into three, two keeps checking on three.

[47:07]

So the vast space, two keeps, you know, ordinary people maybe can't call you on this anymore. Because, you know, you're free of what they say, in a way, because they're not other. They come up to you and they say, you know, please do this, please do that, and you really hear yourself talking to yourself. And you say, you know, you can say whatever you can say. I hear you, and that's it. But two says, are you, are you like totally engaged with this person? And when you hear that idea, again, it's not a thing. That question is not a thing. It happens, but it's not a thing. It's like an interdependence, like light. So what do you do? Because of number two, you feel totally engaged with this Request that's not a thing anymore. That's not out there You're totally intimate with it without separating from it.

[48:12]

You really are intimate with it now and that relationship is actually what happens now it isn't like and that's another thing about the Third stage is you no longer think I'm gonna do this. It's more like everything comes and then there's you doing something and But number two, make sure that there is you doing this thing with everybody. And so all your activity is no longer your own anymore. It's just whatever is needed, whatever is called for by the circumstances. And number two, keep checking that to make sure you're on that beam of responding to all the requests of the moment. And also, when the moment's over and the requests are taken away, you don't keep on that track. You listen to the new set. So it isn't linear. It's circular, but it's not just circular. It's circular and multi-directional. So it's going around in a circle. It's going up and coming back down.

[49:13]

But each one's going like this. 3 is purifying 2. 2 is grounding 3. 2 is purifying 1. 1 is grounding 2. And also, 1 grounds 3 because you have to come back to the beginning. Always in Buddhism, no matter how high you get, the test to see whether you really got there is whether you can go back to the beginning with no problem. So it's like one, two, and then da-da-da-da, two, three, da-da-da-da, and then three, one, da-da-da-da. So one comes back and purifies, three comes down and purifies one, too. So then you come back into the beginning level of practice, but more purely, but also the beginning level of practice checks to make sure that the third phase hasn't got withdrawn, which it could do. Because at the third phase, you are like there's no other to bother you anymore.

[50:18]

And people are basically bothered by the other. you know, by your pain being other. Even your own personal experience. There's me and my pain. There's me and my death. There's me and my reputation. That's what bothers you. There's me and what people say about me. There's me and other people. There's me and frogs. That's what our problem is. It's me and stuff. The third phase, you're free of that. You're free. You're cool. And you can take that nirvana and you take that nirvana And you joyfully go back to the beginning. And you purify the beginning, but also you purify yourself of nirvana. You give up nirvana. You renounce nirvana. And number two brings you down to number one. You don't actually go back to two. Two grounds you so you can go back to one. And you come up to one into two and then into three.

[51:21]

Make sense? So it's more than just circular. It's very multi-dimensional and dynamic. And really, they're not really three things. They're actually dynamics of the one mind of the Buddha. But it has these different aspects. OK? Your description to me sounds, from where I am, very idealistic, way over there. Because if I'm honest with myself, then I see that I'm self-centered. I'm programmed by biology and culture to be self-centered. And even though I see that my attachments cause pain and distress, I don't want to give them up.

[52:25]

So at that level, although I'm interested in practice and I'm listening, at that level, what do I do when it's like I'm really reluctant to give up my attachments? Well, I don't know if this would constitute it, but taking this class is an example of practicing virtues. You came here, I suppose, because you wanted to learn about the practice of renunciation. That's a kind of virtuous practice. The process of trying to learn renunciation is attempting to practice a virtue. You also came to probably try to meditate, to learn something about concentration. And by the way, concentration comes quite naturally with renunciation. Because if you're not grasping or seeking anything, your mind is stabilized you're calm and if you are trying to grasp and seek things you're relatively upset so you've come here and and also you've just admitted and to us and to yourself that you're a normal human being and you've confessed that you have self-concern and self-attachments and you also have point have told us that you've noticed some connection between

[53:43]

the attachments, the self-concern, the self-clinging, and the suffering. And you've also confessed that although you notice that connection between attachment and those things, you still feel like there's a strong sense of, I'm going to go ahead with that old program anyway. Even though I see its disadvantages, I also see some advantages to it. For example, I see that, like I mentioned before, you might see, I still see that you get these real big highs out of it. which are kind of nice. I mean, like, you get super happy when you get what you want. And I know that I get super unhappy when I don't get what I want. But, you know, there's a familiarity here, which is nice, that you know, you kind of know the ropes. And so part of you is kind of not sure you want to go, how much further you want to go on this. But you are exploring the territory of practicing virtue. And the more you explore this stuff, the more you're going to hear encouragement to practice renunciation.

[54:49]

And the more you're going to think about it, and the more you're going to notice the connection between these things that you're noticing. And as the number of cases of lessons of attachment, suffering, attachment, suffering, as that... I mean, the number of times that's happened is before now, virtually infinite. But the number of times you notice the connection is probably not yet infinite. Right? Like you probably noticed 100,000 times the connection between clinging and suffering. But as you notice it a million times, you start to change. So you're confessing a habit, but you're also demonstrating some awareness because you're noticing how the habit works. The more times you Every time you notice how a habit works, you're practicing virtue. That's awareness. That's mindfulness. Every time you confess that you have attachments and you see the connection, that's a practice of the precepts.

[55:50]

Practices of precepts include confessing your non-virtue and confessing your attachments. And also every time you notice that based on your attachments you do things, and then when you notice that and you confess it, again you're practicing confession of karma. Practicing confession of karma is a virtue practice. It's part of the second category of practices I was talking about. So in practicing the precepts, part of it is that we learn about the precepts and maybe feel a desire to practice them, but also part of the practice is to notice when we don't practice them and to admit it and then learn by that process. So you're on the practice, you're on the path of practicing virtues, but you haven't yet got to the first level of renunciation. Okay? And it seems like a far, just long distance away. And I mean, I wasn't I didn't want to give you too awesome a sense of what a great attainment the first level would be.

[56:55]

But it's basically an astounding level that you would actually be pebbled up practice virtues and do all the practices you're doing now plus more of them than you're doing now and have no attachment to that and not be trying to... That would be quite a great attainment. But you're sort of on the way. And another practice of virtue, which I mentioned before, is enthusiasm. So, even though you may see, somebody says, well, want to practice? And you say, yeah. And they say, well, there it is. And you look and say, well, it's kind of a, it's huge. Okay? It's huge. I mean, it's a mountain, you know. And you say, yeah, right? And we have this practice of enthusiasm. You say, what's that? It's to, like, look at the mountain. And if I ask you, do you want to move it? You say, yep. I do. It doesn't mean, I'm not asking you if you want to move it like right now, pick it up and move it. I mean move it pebble by pebble. Do you want to move that mountain? And another virtue is to try to work up an actual, yes, I would like to.

[58:04]

That's a virtue. To actually say, I would like to move that mountain. I would like to save the entire world. I would like to be part of the process of saving all beings from suffering. I want to do that. That's another virtue practice you can do. Still, you might be doing it kind of hoping that, geez, it probably would feel really good to be enthusiastic. That's okay at this phase. The more enthusiastic you get, the closer you get to being free of any kind of attachment to the practice of enthusiasm. And then you move to the next phase where you do something even farther out of practicing all these practices without even trying to get rewarded for it. So, yeah, so we're like, you know, we're down in the foothills of a very huge mountain. And that's why, from the beginning, I suggest to you, in the first couple of classes, that the practice of renunciation is basically to meet whatever happens with complete relaxation.

[59:06]

Because it's such a huge project. this whole process, that we have to be relaxed about it. Because if we get too tense about it, if we get too worried about whether we're going to be able to do it or not, and basically if we get worried, the worry is going to undermine us. We don't need to worry. You just sort of say, well, it's a big job. Of course it's going to be this huge job. But we don't have to get into having time be a problem. But if it is, then we admit, I've got a problem with time, I wish this would happen sooner. Okay, that's part of still trying to get something. You want to get it, and you want to get it on a certain date. That's part of what you admit. In the end, time will no longer hinder you. It'll still be a factor, something out there, but it won't hinder you because you won't grasp it. And again, sometimes there's little moments, little insights, little times when for a moment you stop grasping, you forget about the future and the past.

[60:15]

In some sense, for a moment there, you jump up to the third phase where you're not hindered by time anymore. You don't care about how long it takes. And you just feel really released from this huge mountain. You feel like, hey, I don't care how long it takes. And somehow, even though you still feel like you're in the foothills, that doesn't hinder you. You realize you don't have to get to the top to get to the top. Because enlightenment doesn't just shine at the top of the mountain, but there still is a mountain there. And then you get this big encouragement being at the bottom and feeling like, this is not a problem. And you say, well, now that it's not a problem, I'll climb it. So you don't have to feel demoralized by the immensity of the project. Well, basically, not just immensity, but the limitlessness of it. There's no end to it. So the fact that it's far away is not a problem. I mean, it doesn't have to be a problem. You could say it's far away, up close. You could be... Some people have the problem of being up close.

[61:19]

Like, they're like, it isn't a far away. It's kind of like, whoa, can I go back a few steps? Because you're sort of alluding to that by, yeah, I've got these attachments, but, you know, I'm not sure I want to let go of them. Because then what would that be like? Well, then you'd be right up there, right? Like... There's you in vast space. You know, like some people, if they have inner ear problems, you know, sometimes you get these inner ear, not so much ear infection, but sometimes, you know what I mean, that sometimes the balance thing goes off. And no matter where you are, no matter how flat you lie on the ground, you feel like you're going to fall off the earth. Have you ever heard about that? It's like really terrifying because even though you're like, you know you're on the ground and you can't fall down, you feel like you're going to fall off the ground. Because that's the message you're getting in your ear is the message that you get when you jump off a cliff and you're getting that same proprioceptive feedback. So when you actually get close to actually this renunciation, that's part of what happens is you feel like you're going to fall off the edge of your body and mind.

[62:27]

So then you kind of say, well, can I please have some sugar? Or something, you know, to bring yourself down on the ground again. So, you know, I would say, enjoy the distance while you've got it. Because later you're going to have the problem of being up close. And that's got its problems. But again, if you're practicing virtues and enthusiasm, you have a lot of positive energy to deal with the challenges that are coming up later. So enjoy the problems you have now. And don't worry about the ones you haven't got to yet at the later stages. Just really enjoy the place you are now. Enjoy the stuff that's coming to you now. Enjoy the problems you have now. That's part of renunciation too, which is quite similar to attaining that attitude, when you actually have that attitude, that is sort of attaining the first level, which is that the stage I'm at now is relevant.

[63:34]

that the stage which seems far away from what I'm hearing about if you feel like this stage is relevant you actually are there because that's part of what happens when you first start practicing virtues is you feel like the beginning is different than the later part in other words the later is more like where it's at than this being more skillful is like better than being unskillful but actually when you get to the level of renouncing those practices I mean renouncing your attachment to the relevance of the different phases, you don't feel like one phase is more relevant than another. You feel like all the phases are relevant. And again, that connects to the top level because when you understand interdependence, no matter where you are in the practice field, you understand that your position and your work is relevant. And you don't think that some other place is more relevant. You don't think that way anymore. So if you can enjoy being far away from getting anywhere, you've sort of attained the first stage.

[64:43]

But even that's quite amazing, wouldn't it be? To sort of feel like your present situation is actually relevant, that where you are right now is actually relevant to wisdom and compassion, big time. It's an idea, right? I think it is. I think where you're at is actually apropos of what's going on here in the wisdom and compassion department. I think each of you are right where you should be. I don't think the universe is off its axis. It's just a question of whether you can accept it. And then, do you want to practice some virtues besides, you know, now that you've got your seat, do you want to practice some virtues? Like, you know, go to the yoga room next week and practice some sitting meditation and think about renunciation and practicing virtues and feeling, you know, responsible for all beings and stuff like that.

[66:00]

So shall we have a class next week? So we can come together and practice virtues and make various kinds of renunciations possible by getting together? Okay? Does anybody have anything else they want to say? We have a minute. Would anyone like to be quiet? Next week then, if you have no further questions on what we've talked about so far, I'll start to look at precept practice, which is one of the virtues, how to practice that virtue in the context of renunciation.

[67:29]

Thank you.

[67:32]

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