We’re now getting to the part of the text that more specifically refers to practice. Verses 26, 27, 28 and 29 are sometimes called the path part of this text. Verses 20 – 25 are about the three natures. Verses 20, 21, 22 are the content of the meditation. The way of meditating is laid out at the end of the text. The beginning of the text, which discusses the nature of consciousness and how the transformations create ideas of self and elements, is to help us meditate on the other-dependent or dependently co-arisen.
When you look for the other-dependent, this thought or concept that you have before you, the previous verses help you understand how it is other-dependent. They give you some clues, some education in how to look for its cause. Whatever you're aware of, whatever concept you know, whatever object of knowledge you have is insubstantial in terms of its own being. The previous verses tell you how it's caused and give you guidance on how to experience and understand its insubstantiality. Once you're meditating on the other-dependent, watching out to see if it's by itself, or whether it's associated with self-projections or substantiating imaginings, then the other verses—25, 26, 27, 28 and 29 and 30 in a way too—help you actually stay with the meditation.
I think we're getting down to really doing the meditation. Some people literally, or figuratively, have told me that they're developing doubts around doing the meditation. I felt good about that because that means you're actually doing it. Before, there was doubt about the text, but now it's doubt about the actual practice.
Teah warned me about something I said about being thorough until you get confirmation. She pointed out that this could be interpreted as meaning that if you're thorough you'll get confirmation. This implies some gaining idea. What I mean is—be thorough until you realize you've been thorough. Go all the way to the end until you feel like you've gone to the end. When you feel like you've gone all the way to the end, one way to get confirmation is to come and tell me. And I can say, “Oh, you've gone all the way to the end? Tell me about it.” As soon as I ask whether you have really gone all the way to the end, you may start to feel like, “mmm, maybe I haven't,” or something like that. And then you wouldn't get confirmation because you realize that you don't really believe it yourself. The point is not to get confirmation. It's to confirm you in what you're doing so you can continue to do it with full confidence. It's not that you stop the practice at that point. It's just that you feel confirmed, or verified, or you finally have evidence.
This is like the story I told you: “What is it that thus comes?” In this case you're meditating on something. What is it that is coming here? What is your practice? You have some ongoing sense of what you're doing with your practice. What is that? We don't say that there isn't practice, or that there is practice; that there isn't confirmation, or that there is. We say “Don't defile it.” Staying away from the issue of confirmation is a way to defile it. Saying that this is confirmation is a way of defiling it. Saying this isn't confirmation, never talking about confirmation or verification—you can't maneuver yourself away from defilement. That's a defilement.
We're groping for the path that's free from any kind of one-sided approach to practice and realization. In order to get to the point where we deal with the fundamental concern, we have to be thorough. We don't get the full opportunity to practice if we're not thorough, if we're holding back. That's doubt, wavering. Try to be unwavering. Keep working at it and be more and more thorough at it until you feel like you're finally unwavering. It isn't that you're unwavering and then you get a present or something. Rather, you feel that “Finally I completely give myself to practice and I have no doubt about it anymore. I'm actually finally sitting still. I'm not moving anymore, and all these doubts that are flying at me are not really functioning any more. I'm not moved about by doubts.”
I think some people are afraid of what will happen to them if they give themselves completely to the practice. They wonder, “Will there be anybody left? Will life be fun anymore?” There's some fear if you think of the future, of what will happen to you and of who will take care of you if you throw yourself completely into the practice. Dogen said there is a who there in non-thinking who will take care of you. Suzuki Roshi said that if you follow your breath all the way to the end, as if it goes into a white piece of paper, you just go into vastness at the end of your breath. He said “Don't worry—Buddha will take care of you.” There is a kind of dying there. At the end of being thorough there's a kind of dying of all other options. You're giving up everything except what you're working on. If you're holding back a little bit of your life just to make sure you're going to be all right, then that's your doubt.
Teah asked me for some examples of fear and renunciation. The prototypical example is Shakyamuni Buddha. If he wasn't a little bit afraid of Mara coming at him, it really wouldn't have been a very interesting story. He must have been a little bit afraid to draw that assault, but he didn't move. He just sat there in the face of this assault, this testing of his resolve to sit still. He didn't know that Mara was going to split after he sat still. There was no previous story about Shakyamuni Buddha for him to be able to say, “Well, the Buddha did it.” Teah also pointed out that he didn't really know what he was doing. There wasn't a “Buddhist Way” yet. He was just experimenting with major trauma, full-scale anxiety. At a certain point he gave up his doubt and just sat there. Then things got calm and he could meditate without any distraction.
I hope I'm not leading you into an idea of being thorough for some gain. I would say—be thorough to be thorough. If you don't think you're thorough you're probably right, and if you do think you're thorough you might be right. If you need any help or reflection on your thoroughness, check it out with a friend. Get some mirroring on your thoroughness and see if the mirror says, “Yes, you are thorough.” Go all the way, or go far enough until you feel that something tells you that you've gone all the way Something may give you a signal eventually that you’ve finished, although I really don't think there's a finish.
You go all the way until your mind terminates in mere concept. If it doesn't terminate in mere concept, the depravities are still functioning, the graspings are still going on. When it terminates in mere concept there's no more grasping, there's no object. However, that is also just a mere concept. There is a finish, but it's not really a finish, it's just a mere concept of finish. So you get to the place where you get told, or you feel like, “I finished.” But before you get to the place where you feel like you finished, you didn't finish. You say I'm not finished. “Not finished” is also mere concept. But reaching mere concept is possible. Then all this wonderful stuff happens, and that's suchness and “it remains such all the time.” And that's also mere concept.
Dogen went to his teacher and offered incense and his teacher asked him what was happening. He said “body mind dropped off.” He finished. No more Dogen, no more body and mind. Then the teacher turned it around and said, “body and mind dropped off” and Dogen said “dropped off body and mind.” Then he said “let me out of this one, too, please.” So there is a conclusion and then the conclusion gets dropped, and you're back in business again. There really isn't an end, but you do get to a place where you don't think you've even got there yet, and that's where you still have some doubt.
Stuart Kutchins: Well, I have a little doubt about this subject you've just raised.
Tenshin Anderson: You have doubt or questions?
SK: I have some question about it which is that sometimes people come forward in the manner of no doubt. There are many different kinds of fanaticism. People sometimes feel thoroughly converted and have no doubt, and present themselves with that kind of certainty. Often there's something disturbingly wrong with what they have no doubt about.
TA: Well, is it what they have no doubt about? Or is it their no doubt? Or both?
SK: Well, in terms of being disturbing, if the content doesn't bother me then it's not so bad.
TA: The prototypical example, is enlightenment, right? They're confident and have no doubt about their own enlightenment. Many Zen stories are about a monk who's coming to present his enlightenment to his teacher or to some other teacher after his own teacher has confirmed it. He actually has confidence. We know stories of confident monks coming and saying, “OK this is it. What are you going to say about it? This is it. This is the Genjokoan. This is ultimate reality. Let's see what you have to say, teacher.” Hopefully, they get some real reflection. Sometimes what they see leads them to take a totally different point of view.
There’s the famous story about Fayan and Superintendent Ze. Fayan said to Ze, something like, “How come you never come and talk to me?” The reason Ze didn’t go to see Fayan is because he was already enlightened, he had no doubt about himself. Fayan said “Well, how come?” Ze said “I was enlightened under my previous teacher.” Fayan said “Well what happened?” He said “I asked the teacher, ‘what is the student's self?’ and the teacher said that the fire god comes seeking fire. I woke up, and I've been just fine ever since.”
Fayan said “Well tell me more about it.” He explained, and Fayan said “That's what I thought! You didn't understand.” Superintendent Ze got kind of huffy and puffy and said “You just lost yourself a superintendent. I'm getting out of here!” And he left. As he was tromping down the road he thought, “hmmmm, well, Fayan is the teacher of all those people; maybe he has a point. I'll give him another chance.”
So he went back to Fayan and said “I thought it over and I'm gonna give you another chance.” So Fayan said “OK, ask me the same question that you asked the other teacher.” So the superintendent said “What is the student's self?” Fayan said, “The fire god comes seeking fire.” And Ze woke up again, but in quite a different way. He understood that his previous understanding was totally cockeyed.
That's the point. When you are certain, you're supposed to go expose your certainty to somebody and if that person says fine, then expose it to somebody else. If that person says not fine, then go get huffy and puffy and take a walk, and after you walk awhile then maybe you change your mind or maybe you don't. But that is part of Zen practice.
Somebody came to see me recently and I asked “Are you sitting still?” The person said “Yeah.” And I said “Really?” He said “Totally sure.” And I said “totally sure?” I wondered how the “totally” got in there all of a sudden. Why not just “yes”? If I ask whether you are sitting still and you tell me you are, it's not that I don't believe you. It's just that I might be amazed to see before me someone who has actually realized total stillness. I might say “Wow really!” and you might say “Yes.” I might say “No kidding!” You might say “No kidding!” And I might say “I don't know if I deserve to be in the same room with you any more.” It's not that one's right or wrong, it's just that one keeps putting mirrors up until finally the person is confirmed or has some question and starts over.
Joe Janowski: For me, it seems that recently things seem less real.
TA: You mean because of this talk about mere concept?
JJ: I can't go back to the way I used to see things. I'll be putting on my robes and things seem normal, or the way they used to be, and then I realize that everything seems dreamlike. We say “Now we have completely taken refuge in Buddha,” but it's not really true. I still can't do that last bit. Somehow I don't want to take refuge; it's almost like fear of dying.
TA: Yes, that's a great example. Our great expression of doubt. We want to hold back a little even though we're already kind of on the slide down to not being able to really believe the world anymore. We still feel like “I can't go back but I don't feel like going all the way either.” Is it OK to look at your wife and remember that what you're seeing is a mere concept? Can you have a relationship with somebody and keep that in mind?
I heard this expression: “There may be truth in their hyperbole but I don't know about taking their hyperbole as truth.” Most people's view of you has some truth in it, but you don't necessarily have to take their view as truth. You have some view of things and it's not that there's not some truth there, but mainly the truth is that you're looking at yourself and your own stuff. There's some truth in that.
JJ: Just like now, as you’re talking—there’s an almost a dreamlike quality to it. It's very strange, it's a new and frightening thing to me.
TA: If that's the case, then there's certain times when things happen and you feel like, “Now it's not a dream.” I think some people are thinking of when practice period's over and they're going to leave Tassajara and get in a car. They're going to go back to their house or their job. When you think about that, you say it's not a dream. You pretend it's not a dream and then you can think about it in a different way. You say that it's hard for you to go back to that other way, but the problem is when you do go back to the other way. If you really can't go back, it may be scary but that's not what I'm worried about. What I worry about is that people will get scared and then go back to the other way—thinking “I can't deal with this stuff as mere concept. I have to switch back to this other way when it comes to these topics, these concrete commitments and so on.”
There is a movie called The Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It was about these alien people who came and took over your body while you were asleep. They made a clone of you and the clones had no emotions. The scene that was the most chilling for me showed the only two people in town who hadn't been converted to pod people. They were running away. The woman had fallen asleep, and when the man kissed her, he knew that she had been converted into a pod person because there was no feeling in the kiss; there was no juice there. So we think, “Will I lose my juice? Will I kiss people and they won't feel any juice from me? If I enter the realm free of influxes, does that mean I can't get back to the one where there are influxes?” If you have children does that mean you go home and you have no juice for your kids? No clinging any more? Would that be OK?
I think we're afraid of what would happen if we bring everything that happens into this central arena, if we make everything dependent co-arising. If we make even dreams dependent co-arising. If there is some juice, make the juice dependent co-arising. If there is fear, make the fear dependent co-arising. If there are plans, OK fine, bring the plan into and look at it. How does that plan dependently co-arise? How does it happen that I now think I have to think of the future? How does my worry around this happen? Are there outflows around this? Am I attributing substance to it? The same practice for everything and no exceptions.
That's basically what Shakyamuni Buddha was doing. He was sitting there saying “I'm not gonna move.” Mara says “How about this? Will you move for this? Oh come on, for this you'll move won't you? I mean really! Well you won't move for that—how about for THIS?” Now you say, what if somebody comes and starts beating somebody up? Do you really have to move for that—how about for THIS? Can't you bring that in there too and look at that as dependent co-arising? Didn't Shakyamuni Buddha do pretty well after he was enlightened? Was he incapable of functioning any more? No, he still could get around and help people, just as well, even better. But we doubt that we can continue the practice in this situation, don't we? There are so many good excuses, like the example that Teah used. She said “The words ‘not enough’ came to mind.” And then I said, “You attribute substance to that “not enough.” And she said “Yeah because it wasn't enough.” In other words, “I attributed substance to it because it was true. I attributed substance to it because it had substance!”
Meiya Wender: What if you know that it doesn't have substance but you still attribute substance to it? Just knowing that it doesn't have substance doesn't mean that you stop attributing substance to it.
TA: You don't? What do you mean “know”? You know that it doesn't have substance?
Teah Strozer: She knows theoretically.
TA: Theoretically? Like what?
MW: No, he trapped me!
TA: She understood. Did you understand? If you know that it doesn't have substance, you just attributed substance, because the reality is that it doesn't have substance. That's real. The thought, “It doesn't have substance” is a real thought. It's actually kind of a hyperbole, it doesn't have substance. You make the hyperbole into truth. There's some truth that it doesn't have substance; you know that. But when you go so far as to say, “I know”—then you've gone too far. There's truth in that, but it's not the truth. It's a view.
If you believe in what you said you know, then you just fell for your view and you made your view into reality. Everybody's got views. There's some truth in everybody's view in any situation. Right now in this class everybody's got a view of what's going on. If you have a dreamlike sense of your view, fine. If you don't have a dreamlike sense and you're sure, fine. If you're sure or not sure—anyway there's some truth in your view, but your view is not truth. Nobody's view is truth, but there's some truth in everybody's view. Everybody's view dependently co-arises. The truth of your view is its dependent co-origination. The truth of your view is that it's empty. It's true because it liberates you from your view.
Is there any substance attributing to the dreamlike quality? I would suggest that for a lot of people, when you start to get into this dreamlike quality, you actually think it is that way. There's some outflow around the dreamlike quality. Sometimes people, if they just came to a Zen group, and over the door there's a big sign that says "everything's like a dream" and they get a sense of this dreamlike quality, they might feel like, “Hey, I'm really into the meditation after only a few days!” You get inflated by the juice of having a perception of a dreamlike quality. It's also possible that you feel enervated and weakened and feel like you couldn't really do your thing with a dreamlike quality. You're still orienting towards that dreamlike quality as something you can grasp and work with, and there's some energetics around it.
If there's fear around it too, that's another sign that substance is being placed on insubstantiality. If you're afraid of it, you're making it into a substance. We are not afraid of insubstantiality. We are afraid of insubstantiality when it's brought out and made into a substantial thing. We can't be afraid of insubstantial things because we have no way to grasp them. You have to have something out there to grasp in order to have confusion and fear. If you really see it's insubstantial, you might wish you could be afraid, but you don't know how. You can't get access, you can't decide what to be afraid of.
If you feel that it's dreamlike, go back to that again and again. See if you can conduct your life while doing that. You can see whether you can still talk to people on the telephone, drive cars, go to staff meetings and so on. Sometimes when you're learning a new trick there's a shakiness or self-consciousness. Rather than feeling this shakiness, it's very nice just to shift back into the old gear where we know our way around. But that's where the learning happens. You already know how to do the old things and you know where they go. They go to stress, and anxiety, and so on. You know how to do that stuff. This new thing, if you think about it, is scary. But when you think about it you just made it into a concept, which you can get a hold of. Since I'm afraid of it it must be a concept. Now I'm dealing with a concept, a concept of fear. Now you're back on track. And this is new and you're learning. You're a student of the teaching of Vasubandhu.
Jon Landon: It's strikes me, what huge rippling psychic biceps you have to have to stop the world. You know—like where Superman comes from outer space and grabs a planet, and stops it. It stops spinning.
TA: You already have huge psychic biceps! Therefore when you hear about this process you project your huge psychic biceps onto it. It doesn't require huge psychic biceps. You have a full body of psychic power. That's what you already know how to use, and when you hear about this thing it sounds really hard and you think, “Wow, that would be a tremendous effort.” But this effort is not the same kind of thing. It's not huge psychic biceps. It's thoroughness at staying with your huge psychic biceps. It's a totally different thing. It's the reverse. It's staying with what you're doing rather than doing something.
However, your power to do things doesn't have to get weaker. Shakyamuni Buddha was a powerful person. He had a powerful ego. He didn't get more powerful from practice—he was already powerful enough. He thoroughly studied his powerful mind, his powerful psyche. He learned to stay with himself and not get distracted by the world. That's enough. That's what he learned. He said “I'm going to study myself and I'm not going to move until I understand myself.”
Robbin Frey: The kind of doubt that I have manifests in that when you're giving a very concrete example, when you're talking about the process of doing this meditation, I can follow that. Sometimes it's really clear. But when you stop talking about it, my understanding goes away. I need to hear more examples, so could you go through a few more?
TA: I didn't feel that what Robbin just said was doubt. She gave examples of doubt, but her telling us that was not doubt. Her report is from her meditation. She would like more examples of doubt. She just gave examples of doubt. And she also said that sometimes she can't even notice that she is doubting. Is that what you're saying?
RF: No, no. I don't want examples of doubt, I want examples of the process, those questions you're asking yourself doing this meditation. I'm thinking I just need to hear more of them so when I'm sitting there on my cushion I won't be thinking, “What were those questions I'm supposed to be asking myself?”
TA: Ok, so what you're saying now is not doubt. What you're saying is a kind of report of something you think you need in order to do the practice.
RF: The doubt comes up. It's the reporting of doubt when it comes up.
TA: Yes, but right now your report of the doubt is not doubt. Your report of the doubt is part of the meditation practice. She would like more examples of how to remind herself. But one of the main ways you remind yourself, which you have already done, is remind yourself how you forget. What you just said is how you can remind yourself. You said that, not me. You came up with that. That's from your own experience, you see? So don't overlook the fact that you just gave an example yourself. I'm just doing what you asked me to do! You asked me to give an example but the example I'm giving is to point to you as an example. I thought that would be useful since you brought it up!
Now if you could be more specific, now could you please tell us more specifically how you get lost? Then that will be an example.
RF: I sit there and things come up and ... I remember this question, “How am I attributing substance to this?” But suddenly I realize I don't know what that means anymore. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
TA: Stop for a second. You say you're sitting and what happens? How about right now? Right now you're thinking of something, aren't you?
RF: Yeah, I'm thinking about the frustration of that process when I'm trying to do this.
TA: Ok, so how can you remind yourself to do it right now? You just looked into yourself and came up with some images of something about the way you meditate. Right? Now is there any substance to that stuff?
RF: Yeah, I think there must be because I’m not happy with that and I’m frustrated.
TA: There you go, you see. I asked you if there was any substance and you said “Yes, I think there must be.” You could have also said “Yes, I think that I think there must be. I seem to believe that there is because I'm unhappy with it.”
If you're unhappy about the story I told about you, then probably you're attributing substance to it. You don't think it's funny, you take it seriously. That shows you that you're attributing substance. You're dissatisfied. If the story was told a different way, if it was the opposite version, if it was a story about how you were able to continue to meditate, and you didn't get lost, and you didn't forget, then you probably would be happy. In both cases, you're sitting in this room, looking in your mind, coming up with images. One set of images makes you feel frustrated and upset, and the other set makes you feel pretty happy.
RF: I would be more satisfied with that if that were my experience.
TA: That's a better example because it's fresh. When I was talking, an image came to her and she liked that one best of all. She attributed substance to it, and she liked it. I could tell another story that I might think she would really like, but she might hear it in a way that made her depressed. The point is, the way you heard it, when you attribute substance to it you get drained or depressed. Another story, you attribute substance to it, you get elevated. It's the elevation and depression of energy around the stories that shows you that you're attributing substance to it.
That's another reason we hesitate to do this practice. We're not sure we want to have things not lift us up and put us down. We're not sure we want to be stable.
I think we're afraid of stability. It's potentially boring. Baudelaire pointed out that the superstar, the king, the boss of all demons is boredom. When you're excited or depressed, you don't need boredom. You're already off track. You've already got outflows and inflows, you're already getting drained or inflated, so you don't need boredom yet. But when you start getting stable, then they bring in the big one. “This is boring, you're wasting your time. Don't you remember the old days when you used to get up and down? Remember those highs you used to get? They were so high that you were willing to go low—remember those? Well they're not happening now are they? They're not going to happen any more either.” That's the big scare, boredom.
It's like death. We don't want to die. This is like getting close to death, like getting close to the limit of your life, where death comes and knocks on the door. You're not sure you want to go into this realm yet, but if you want to go into this realm which is free of influxes, there's going to be something like death around there. And then there's going to be fear.
Wendy Lewis: It seems to me that at the same time, there's also what I call a sense of eternity, where there's also this incredible feeling of comfort. It's not like a personal comfort like “something's comforting me.” It's kind of boring but it has an eternal quality that sustains. It's like being in the midst of despair and nothing's wrong. You know nothing's wrong, and so you're not really upset.
TA: If that's the case, believe me, I'm not worried about that. That's not a problem. I don't see that as a problem unless you make that into something.
WL: But my feeling is that the fear of boredom doesn't include that other feeling.
TA: Tell me what you're saying. What are you really saying?
WL: Well, what it feels like to me, when you stop going up and down, nothing is happening any more, there is a feeling of boredom and a feeling of despair. But you suddenly realize that it's not attached to anything, that there's nothing really to be despairing about. Then something else seems to be there at the same time. That's not making sense to you?
TA: It is. But what are you bringing this up for?
WL: Because it sounds like we're just getting to this little edge where you're saying it's going to be boredom.
TA: I'm not saying it's going to be boredom. I'm just saying boredom is a sign that you're getting close.
WL: Right, that's what I'm saying. And I think that with it comes this other feeling.
TA: But what are you bringing that up for?
WL: Because I just want to say it's not so frightening.
TA: What are you bringing that up for?
WL: Because I don't feel so frightened.
TA: But why are you bringing that up?
WL: Isn't that what we're talking about? We're talking about fear and doubt.
TA: If people are afraid, what's the reason for bringing up that you're not afraid?
WL: I'm not saying that I'm not afraid. I'm saying at the same time that the fear comes up, this other thing comes up.
TA: You don't have to be afraid, but you should take this thing you're saying and throw that in there. I feel like you're holding that out separate. You should throw that in there too.
WL: Yes! Well I think I do, but I also have to express it first like this sort of separate thing that I'm trying.
TA: That's the reason I asked you what you brought it up for. I feel like you're still holding it out there, away from the furnace. And I want you to throw it in. People don't mind throwing boredom in there and fear. I want you to throw this in there just like with fear. That's why I asked you the question. Now would you please throw it in there? Throw it. Did you throw it? Do you understand what I'm saying? Does everybody follow this?
RF: I just want to know, in terms of the question I asked you, did it get to the end of the line? I'm hanging here wondering. I've acknowledged that I've attributed substance to this thing. Is that where I stop and wait for anything to come up?
TA: Well I'm not saying that's all of Buddhism, but the main thing I thought we got to with your example was, you were sitting here in this class. You aren't in the zendo, you're in this class and you're thinking of saying something about your meditation. You were thinking about your meditation right here in this classroom. Just like in the zendo you think of your meditation practice. Some people are in the zendo thinking of their meditation practice! Even when you're asleep you're thinking of your meditation practice. That's the way you're thinking about it. You're saying, “This is not interesting, so I'm gonna take a nap.” That's the way you think about your meditation practice. And then you think, “Oh, I'm supposed to be concentrating on mere concept but I'm not.” Then you get upset because you're a bum. Or you think, “Oh, now I'm actually tuned in; I'm doing it, so I feel good.” Or you think “Well I don't feel good, but I just caught myself at slipping off and that's supposed to be good, so that's good.”
You gave two examples when you were imagining your meditation practice. You thought about it and you actually felt upset. That's an example of your image of your practice, or your life, and your attributing something to it, and getting upset. Or I said something to you and you heard that and converted that into some idea and you liked that one and you got happy. So you became an example, you got yourself to be an example of what you asked for. You want to go further on this example?
Before we go further on that, I want to get back to Wendy. I feel that she gave more information but I really felt that when you brought that up, you were holding that information separate from the process. This is just my fantasy, OK? I'm suggesting to you that part of this practice of the mind terminating in mere concept is that you have no recommendations or encouragements to yourself to do it. You're not talking yourself into doing it any more when you're terminated. When you're still talking to yourself that's fine, but when you're telling yourself to do it, when you're telling yourself to bring yourself back to it; if you think that's true, if you think that you're actually trying to encourage yourself to do it and you think there's substance to the idea of getting yourself to do it—then you are not realizing that the conversation you're having with yourself is it. So in fact you're not doing it. That's why encouraging yourself to do it is basically an error in this practice. It doesn't mean you can't do it. You're allowed to make any errors you want. But you should understand that anything you do to make yourself more comfortable to do the practice or encourage yourself to do the practice—anything like that you do is off the track. On the other hand, if you realize that that's a concept, it's not really an encouragement, it's a fantasy about encouragement. It's actually an example of doubt. It sounds like an encouragement, but it's an expression of doubt. To encourage yourself to do the practice is an expression of doubt. It's a concept of encouragement which you think is encouragement because you don't realize that THAT is the practice right there, the encouragement. And it's not that it's encouragement—it's doubt. Because you think, this isn't the practice, that you're doing right now. You want to encourage yourself to do something else, which is the practice. But if you catch yourself on that, you're right. And then when you see doubt as doubt, that's not doubt, that's the practice, in this case. Are you getting this? Another important way that you can catch yourself and keep on track, is to notice that any leverage you use to get yourself on track is doubt. If you notice that you're leveraging yourself into the practice and you catch it as doubt, it's a wavering, basically you don't trust your mind at that point. You say, “I should get myself to be this other way. I should get myself to do this mere concept practice” even though the thing you're using to get yourself to do this mere concept practice is a mere concept. You could do it right then, rather than getting yourself to go over there to do it. So you have to catch all these examples, all these things around here. They're doubts when they're outside the practice, even if they're pointing you back to the practice.
WL: Is that the shadow? The other day I was walking up the hill and I thought, my god, ‘I'm just a phony, because I'm trying so hard. I'm just a phony because I keep thinking I'm making this effort.’ That makes me think that that's the shadow.
TA: Saying “I'm a phony” is the shadow?
WL: Well that's how it comes out.
TA: Good example. To say “I'm a phony” is mere concept. If you fall for it, that's the shadow. To say “I'm doing the practice” is the shadow of the practice too. Both of them are. In other words, we fall for it. That's the shadow. Ok? In other words, we have to learn to catch everything other than mere concept, as doubt, as a distraction, as a veering off. If you catch that stuff as doubt, you're right! And then it turns into mere concept. Doubts always come in that packaging too.
Joe Janowski: Her saying “Yesterday I was walking up the hill and I saw my shadow,”—all that's just concept too.
TA: She could have caught it then too if she wanted to. She might have, we don't know.
JJ: And me saying that about her—concept also.
TA: Exactly! And faith in this teaching is to stay on that track. Although you might get scared, when you get scared, that's doubt too. That's doubt-sponsored too. If you stay on this track, you will not be afraid when you're on it, but if you veer a little bit you can get frightened and so on. Frightened, depressed, excited—all that stuff can happen as soon as you veer away from it. Not to mention not even getting frightened and not even getting inflated but basically you do get inflated or depressed. Your energy's gonna go down or up whenever you go off. You're gonna get tired and stressed or you're gonna get energetic and hyped up. Something's going to happen to your energy as a result of these moves. If you watch, you can catch it.
There is an energetic gain and loss around all these moves. When you're on, the mind's terminating in mere concept. When you're off, you're in doubt and if you catch it you get back on. When you're off, there are energetic consequences which hopefully you will eventually notice. Faith in this teaching is just to be present and to keep looking at dependent co-arising. What dependently co-arises? Concepts of awareness. Things you're aware of are concepts and they dependently co-arise. That's what Vasubandhu is explaining to you, how they dependently co-arise. You don't have to do anything, just look at them, and this will be revealed to you.
You have to keep coming back to the mind terminating in mere concept, so that no matter what happens you don't veer off and think “now wait a second, now I'm not dealing with concepts any more, now I'm back dealing with reality.” In fact, we are always doing this. We're being asked to admit what we're always doing. We're always in this realm of dealing with concepts, of conceptualizing. We're doing that all the time—we're not asked to do something we're not already doing. We're asked to own up to what we're doing and just stay on that beam of being honest and upright with what we're doing, or what's coming to us. Actually we're not doing this, it's coming to us. We don't make these concepts, they are made by the workings of our mind.
If you can stay on that beam you enter this realm. We have a lot of fears of entering this realm and around the frontiers of this realm are fears of what's going to happen to us, what's going to happen to our energy, what's going to happen to our self, what kind of a person are we going to become. All these things are like frontier guards to this realm. That's where we're at right now. Sometimes you're not exactly at the frontier, you're actually going in the other direction. When you're going towards it you get fear. You get excuses and reasons why actually it is real and why you shouldn't do it. When you're going away, you have these energy fluctuations. So we're going towards and away. This is our doubt. We're vibrating and wavering around this practice. We're all more or less doing this together.
Meiya Wender: I don't feel doubt so much as frustration because I feel like you're saying you have to keep doing this, and at the same time you say, you can not do this practice. This is practice that you can not do. So I feel tossed between those two sides.
TA: Do I say that? Do I say you have to do this?
MW: That's what I hear. You have to stay on this beam.
TA: Right, you have to stay on the beam but it's not something you do. If you do anything you're off. In fact you have to just be still and upright. Being upright is not something you do. Righting yourself is something you do. Bringing yourself back into alignment is something you do. But that's something you do because of noticing you did something. You don't really do anything when you notice something. It's not something you do. You just notice or you don't. If you don't notice that's no work. If you do notice that's no work—it's effortless. As soon as you notice you're off, you're on. If you're not off, you don't have to notice you're on, you're just on. That's what you have to do. It's not doing anything. You just have to stay on all the time. Everything that happens to you has to be something that keeps you on. If it isn't, if it brings you off, then you have to admit you're off. As soon as you admit you're off you're back on. But that isn't doing anything. That's just calling a spade a spade. Just noticing what's reality.
It's not really work. It's not karma. When you're doing karma you're supposed to own to the karma. But owning that you're doing karma is not necessarily karma. If you think “I did this thing of noticing my karma,” then that's karma. But just saying “karma karma karma”—that's not karma. That's just noticing. That's just awareness of karma. We're supposed to stay on the beam of noticing our karma. That's not doing anything. If you just stay upright and don't move, then you notice your karma. It gets presented to you. That's all you can see. That's what's happening. This stuff is being produced before you. Just noticing it is not more of that stuff. It's the opposite of that stuff—it relieves you from that stuff. That's the beam that we're supposed to stay on, but that's not doing something.
If I sound like I'm saying, “doing something,” then call me on it because I'm saying “no, it's not that you do something.” That's why this practice is renunciation—you have to give up doing things and switch over to just being present with the fact that you are doing things. To be present with your great psychic muscles which are exercising themselves, and which nobody can stop.
MW: So what do you do with the Thirty Verses in the situation of not doing anything?
TA: You just stay present with the Thirty Verses. Don't lean into the Thirty Verses, don't lean away from the Thirty Verses. Don't lean to the right of the Thirty Verses or to the left of the Thirty Verses. Just be upright and let the Thirty Verses do their thing—whatever it is. What is it? I think some people have certain energy variations through the day. What I'm talking about are energy variations which you can notice are directly related to the way you think. It would be good if you could start noticing this. If you're not thinking, then you won't have energy variations related to your thinking. Ok?
So we’ll all go to sleep tonight and tomorrow morning there'll be no outflows. At last, we're liberated from all this grief!