At the beginning, or towards the beginning of this series, I told you about the first teaching that the Buddha is supposed to have given, at least the first one that's sort of written down. And in that first teaching he told people about two extremes that should not be practiced someone who is a disciple of his and then he said that avoiding these extremes of um addiction to indulgence and sense pleasure and addiction to self-mortification avoiding those extremes he teaches a middle path he realized a middle path and teaches a middle path And then he says, what is the middle path? And it's simply the Eightfold Noble Path. And then he, after saying what the Eightfold Path is of right understanding, right view, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, and so on, up to right concentration, after saying that, then the next thing he says is, he starts teaching the Four Noble Truths.

[01:24]

And so in teaching the Four Noble Truths, he tells us the truth of suffering, and then he tells us the truth of origin of suffering, and then he teaches us the truth of the end of suffering or cessation of suffering, and the teaching of the path, which is I would say to you, is the origin of the cessation of suffering. So the first two noble truths are about suffering and how suffering arises, and the second two truths are about cessation of suffering and how the cessation of suffering arises. Once again, Buddha starts off by teaching there's two extremes to be avoided. And the Buddha has realized a middle path. What is the middle path which avoids his extremes?

[02:30]

It's the Eightfold Path. And then he starts teaching the Eightfold Path by teaching how suffering arises and how the end of suffering arises. Okay? That's the basic structure I could give you for this. And then he goes into the Four Noble Truths. But basically, the frame I put on that is that he teaches the middle way, which avoids his extremes. He tells you it's the Eightfold Path, and then he teaches the Eightfold Path by teaching dependent co-arising, by teaching how suffering arises and how the end of suffering arises. Both suffering and the end of suffering, both are dependent co-arisings. They're both dependently co-arisen phenomena. And then I also told you about another sutra which he gave later.

[03:41]

where he talks again about two extremes to be avoided. In this case, he says the extremes to be avoided are the extreme of everything exists and the other extreme of everything does not exist. And then he says, I teach a way of the middle, which avoids these extremes. And then he goes in and he says, Dependent on ignorance, karmic formations arise. Depending on karmic formations, dualistic consciousness arises and so on up to, in this dependent way, the whole mass of old age, sickness and death, and of course birth, old age, sickness and death. This cycle of birth and death and misery, he shows how it dependently co-arises. and tells us that it does dependently co-arise. And then in the other case he says, however, with the cessation of ignorance there arises the cessation of coming formations and so on.

[04:56]

So there's a cessation of old age, sickness, death, and the whole cycle of misery. So again he tells the story of dependent co-arising of suffering and the story of dependent co-arising freedom from suffering. In one case, the middle is in terms of kind of practical indulgences, extremes, and the other is in philosophical indulgences or extremes. Not so much philosophical indulgence, but philosophical indulgences and extremes. Throughout Buddhism, or throughout the Buddha Dharma, this teaching of dependent core arising is always there. And I think maybe in this class somebody said, is dependent core arising like interdependence?

[06:01]

And I think I said, yeah, but it's not quite the same. The word interdependent doesn't quite... say as much as the word dependent co-arising, because you can say interdependent existence or interdependence, but this is to say a little bit more. This is to say interdependent arising. This is about an interdependence about the way things happen, how things come into this... into existence. I think also Roy is not here this week, but he often asks for examples. And in a way, you know, in a way, in this class, in a sense, there's no examples, really.

[07:10]

In other words, it's all abstract examples. In another sense, everything is an example. So anything you pick, any phenomena that you pick can be an example of the middle way. In other words, we'll use whatever you say as the example, and then we will try to find the middle way with whatever you bring up. Whatever experience you want to discuss, fine. Then we try to frame it in the middle way. But there's not exactly any examples of the middle way that are more than another example. So if you say example of the middle way, anything you name, each one of you is an example of the middle way. And the beginning, the initiation into understanding how each one of you is the middle way is

[08:15]

or the middle way of each one of you, each moment, is this teaching of dependent core arising. So dependent core arising describes the relationship whereby you derive your existence. Pentecost Rising describes the relationship or the kinds of relationships whereby you derive your existence or your being. And how do you derive your existence according to this teaching? Well, how does this teaching describe the way you derive your existence? Anybody?

[09:20]

Dependently, yes. Depending on what? Depending on what? Depending on what? Depending on others. Not on yourself. The initiatory meditation is to meditate on the description of the relationship by which you come to exist, by which you are existing, and by which you will cease to exist. So, being aware of how you arise and cease, being aware of how you exist and cease to exist, that's good. Those are the examples. Mmm, yummy. Just like a Japanese restaurant. Thank you.

[10:24]

Did you bring this all the way from Aptos? Anybody want some green tea? Come right up here. I'll share it. So the initiatory meditation into the middle way could be that you just try to avoid extremes. That would be good. Try to avoid the extreme of existence and non-existence. If you can do it, you've realized the middle way. But you might just be dreaming that you're doing it, so be careful. The usual way of entering into the way the Buddha taught, he said, I want to teach the middle way, but then what he taught you is dependent core arising. He taught you, he gave a description of the relationships, the kind of relationships by which you come to exist.

[11:34]

which you come to exist and by which you come to cease to exist and come to exist and come to cease to exist moment by moment this is the relationship and note that relationship is that you depend on another and not you do not depend on yourself of all things you do not depend on yourself the funny thing about buddha the buddha dharma in this way the central teaching is that it is a direct sort of opposite of the what people think People do think, actually, whether you admit it or not, deep down, you have inborn belief that you arise, that you come to exist in dependence on yourself. That's the way things look. And you think other things are that way, too. That's the way they look. The teaching is to get us to meditate on the way things are that's not the way they look. Now, although I don't really have examples of dependent co-arising other than anything, you know, in other words, anything you pick, I would say that's a dependent co-arising, that's an example, but I don't have an example of how you're an example exactly.

[12:57]

But I do have examples of ways you can practice with all the examples of dependent co-arising. Everything that exists is an example of dependent co-arising. Okay? And anything that's not an example of dependent co-arising doesn't exist. So if you want to see an example of dependent co-arising, just look at what you're looking at, listen to what you're listening at, feel what you're feeling, smell what you're smelling, think what you're thinking. Those are all examples of dependent co-arising. And those are all examples of the middle way. But the middle way is a little bit more than just dependent colorizing. It's a little bit more than just that anything that exists derives its being independence on things other than itself and does not rely on itself for its existence. It's a little bit more than that. And a little bit more than that is is what is pointed to in the verses that I passed out last week.

[14:02]

Did anybody not get that piece of paper last week? Would you pass them out, Gary, to the people who didn't get them? So I do have examples of ways you can practice with all these examples of dependent core arising. So by what I just said, one of the ways we should practice is that we should practice with everything because everything is an example of this. I mean, everything is a dependent core arising. So according to that, the way you should practice is with everything. It doesn't make sense that you'd only practice with some things. Because if you practice only with some things, you'd be skipping over opportunities for practice because everything that exists is an opportunity to meditate on the middle way and meditate on dependent core arising. Another thing, so that's one practical comment that I have.

[15:15]

It's a practical comment. In other words, it's a practice comment. Is that practical? Apply. I'm not applying. Yeah, well, apply for practice at every event. Another... Well, it's enough for now. I'll give more practical instructions a little bit later. But I want now to just address not exactly the complication, although it may seem that way, but more the clarification that this verse gives. Because this verse says, first of all, it says, dependent core rising, I declare to be emptiness. So emptiness basically what it means is that when you have a dependently co-arisen thing like you or me, a dependently co-arisen being like our being, our emptiness is that our identity, our identifiable

[16:35]

existence is nothing more than a verbal designation. And I would guess if I just stop right there and say, I guess if I stop right there, you probably think, something's missing in that description. I think my existence is something more than just a verbal designation. Don't you sort of feel that way? At least two people do. Most people think they're more than something like, like most of you think you're something more than Marsha, right? And Marcia probably thinks that too.

[17:37]

And Martina may or may not think she's something more than Marcia, but she thinks she's something more than just a word. Martina. Probably. I would guess. It seems like something is missing. Aren't we something more than just a word? I'm not saying that you aren't something more than just a word. I'm saying your identity. Your existence is nothing more than the word Martina or something like that, or a woman. What you actually are is not, doesn't just fall in the category of existence or having identity. You actually are, in your other dependence, you don't really have an identity. Because, how come you don't have identity? Tell me. Tell me, why don't you have an identity? Say more. Didn't get it yet.

[18:43]

In your dependent core rising, how come you don't have an identity? What? What? Yeah, and what else? Yes, but what else? In this point, follow this point. You don't exist except through your dependence on others and? Don't exist except for their dependence on, their dependability. Well, you don't have to go any further. But you missed the point that you don't exist except in dependence on others. In other words, you do exist in dependence on others. And you don't exist by way of yourself. That's why you don't have an identity in dependent core rising land. Because you don't make yourself happen and you are happened by others. You don't have an identity there. But in order to have an identity, you can get an identity and you get an identity by a verbal designation.

[19:53]

There's another little facet in there that there's a thought construction that interposes between this identity-less way that we are. There's a thought construction that we do produce ourselves and then that actually is part of the verbal designation. The verbal designation goes with an essence that we overlay on this essenceless interdependent way we are. This essence-less, other-dependent way we come to exist, we put an essence on top of it, and then we put a word on top of it, and then we have an identity. But that identity, the essence which we put on there doesn't exist, but there is a word. So all there really is is not the essence that we put on top of the thing so that the word would make us come into existence. That doesn't exist at all. But there is a word. So if you take the word away, there's no identity because the basis for the verbal designation doesn't exist at all.

[21:02]

So that's why, that's our emptiness. That's the way we're empty. Our emptiness isn't that we're not here at all. It's just that our being here in an identified way really is empty of anything more than just the word and the imagined essence. So emptiness is that we're empty of essences. We're empty of self-existence. We're empty of a basis for putting a word on us. We're empty of a basis for an identity. That's the way we're empty. And our emptiness is the same as our dependent core arising, because our dependent core arising, you see, is the reason why we're empty. It's the reason for our emptiness. However, the additional big step here is that the dependent core arising is also emptiness. So emptiness is because the dependent core arising is the reason for emptiness, but dependent core arising itself is also empty.

[22:06]

So in other words, the way the way causes and conditions come to create us, that way also doesn't have any kind of like ideas in there about how it's happening. So the causal process by which we happen is also free of the thought constructions by which we come to exist. So this verse plays with these three things. It plays with our dependent core arising, or the dependent core arising of anything, its equality with emptiness, and that what we just said is a verbal designation, and the way we come to exist and have an identity depends on verbal designation. And the relationship between those three, conventional designation, which includes imposition of thought constructions, emptiness, independent co-arising, the relationship between those three is the middle way. Okay?

[23:21]

That's a... You know, it's kind of a start. Yes? Now, is your name James? Jim. Oh, Jim. Jim. James? James. Jim? People also call us things that are incorrect all the time. People call us things that are incorrect? Yes, and we recognize it. We feel this. Some things are compliments or they flatter us. Some recognize us out of fear. They act out of their own illusions that don't fear. It might be the clinging on to some self-identity, but we feel this. We feel this when people misapprehend us. When people misapprehend us, we feel something? Yes, it has some kind of meaning. And if they... Call something incorrect.

[24:24]

the approach to be mislabeled, to be misidentified. And the meaning is discomfort? Well, it can be. You spend a lot of time correcting it or... Well, what meaning were you thinking of if someone speaks of you and it seems to you that it's a misspeaking that you're talking about, that example? And what is the meaning there that you're pointing to? I'm trying to grapple with that. Why would it be uncomfortable if... If we're completely empty, why wouldn't any way people deal with us be quite fine? Well, if we realize our emptiness, then whatever way people deal with us will be quite fine.

[25:33]

But if we don't realize it, then actually almost any way anybody treats us ever is not quite fine. Because, huh? What? Yeah, you take exception. Once, if we don't understand emptiness, no matter what happens, it's a problem. And if we do understand emptiness, no matter what happens, It's freedom. It's an example of freedom. If you don't understand emptiness, everything that happens is an example of bondage, and bondage is more or less a problem. Sometimes we're in bondage in such a way that we're sort of in bondage to not even be aware that we're in bondage. and then because we're not aware we're in bondage to do things based on being in bondage without knowing it, which are going to create deeper bondages, which is a problem.

[26:42]

Sometimes we're in bondage, we feel pretty comfortable, and then we do something which is going to make us feel super uncomfortable later. When you're in bondage and you know it, you're a little uncomfortable, but you're a little bit more enlightened than being in bondage and not knowing it. And the level of the level of our misconduct is lessened in direct relationship with how well we understand our bondage. And if we are actually in bondage and think we're not, then we don't understand our bondage very well. Right? So then not understanding our bondage very well, really poorly actually, to be in bondage and think you're not, that's really a poor understanding. Then we do things which make it harder for us to understand in the future.

[27:51]

Even though you understand you're in bondage, you're still not necessarily done with your work to go a little further than understanding that you're in bondage. to understand, to go a little further than understand that you're uncomfortable, that you have problems and you're afraid. A little bit more than that, and that little bit more is understand emptiness. And in order to understand emptiness, you have to understand dependent co-arising. So you start understanding emptiness by studying dependent co-arising. For example, of the situation where somebody is speaking of you in a way that misapprehends you, which is the way most people speak of you most of the time. Like apprehending. Huh? Apprehending you. Apprehending you, yeah. So if I say your name is Carl, in some sense, in that case, I didn't misapprehend you.

[28:54]

Because I didn't really say that you are Carl. Now to say that you are Carl, when people introduce themselves and say, I'm Carl, or I'm Jim, I know that was kind of a difficult example to say, you're Carl, sorry. Because Carl's sitting next to Jim and he probably went, what's he talking about? I didn't mean it that way. I meant, you are Jim. Okay. For somebody to say, you are Jim, that's not necessarily a misapprehension of you. They might be just saying, in other words, your name is Jim. That's maybe what they mean. And that's true, that your name is Jim. It's not a misapprehension. But they might think that you are actually your identity, which actually... is not totally untrue because part of you is your identity.

[29:56]

It's just that your identity is nothing more than Jim. And if they talk to you that way, maybe they're not misapprehending you. So you might not have too much of a problem with that. But again, you might because if you don't understand emptiness, then the way they're talking still might be a problem for you. Because it might remind you that there's something you don't understand. Go ahead. I'm also trying to make the next leap. When I hear we're... interdependent. I feel a sense that we're social animals. Yes. And there is a greater society that acts in our lane.

[31:00]

And I'm not These days, it's quite uncomfortable. Our government's taking action in our name, and it feels abusive. I'm not quite comfortable enough just to... Well, it seems wrong to let them make it all in my name. Well... Maybe we could just, if it's okay with you, we could start with, it seems abusive. So you're looking at something and you're thinking, or you're feeling, or you're thinking, I guess, it's abusive. Yes. Okay. Somehow I feel whatever power we have, that comes as a social group, is being misappropriated.

[32:05]

And I guess we shouldn't be surprised at the abuse of power. But it's still, it's very frustrating. How to stymie that abuse, you know, just shrugging my shoulders and saying, well... Well, I don't know if I should... stay with this example that you're bringing up or flip it over on the other side and see what you do with it. If you saw something that was going on and you thought this is not abuse, you thought this is like not abuse, this is like good use, not abuse. Maybe you thought that. Maybe that's a better example to start with. Because then I can say to you, if you think that something is a good use, all right, if that's what you think, and you think that you believe what you think, then I would say to you that you are not going to be able to participate with this good use that you're seeing very well because you're going to be believing that this good use is something more than what you're thinking about it.

[33:20]

Excuse me, not something more. That your view of this good use is really the way it is. Now, in that case, you may not get so riled up because you say, well, I guess it doesn't matter too much if I get along with good use. If it's good use and I'm not participating with it very well, well, so what? It's still good use. But I'm suggesting that that's a problem. Now, if you flip it over to abuse... then there will be a problem also in the way you relate to abuse. So what I'm talking about is a way to look at things such that you will be able to do something beneficent and beneficial in relationship to it. So if it's abuse and you don't understand the abuse, you won't be able to make your most skillful and compassionate response. That's what I'm saying. If it's good use, also there, you won't be able to make your good response your best response unless you understand it.

[34:26]

So what I'm emphasizing here is understand situations accurately, truly, whether they're called abuse or good use. And if you can understand situations, that seem to you to be abusive, if you can understand them, then you will be able to do what you want to do with your life. What do you want to do with your life, James, Jim? I'm just guessing that you will be able to do what you want to do with your life. Now, tell me and I'll see if I guessed right. What do you want to do with your life? how do you want to live in relationship to whatever you meet we aspire to be virtuous yeah right there you go that's what I thought so if there's some abuse if something appears to you as abuse you know you want to respond to that virtuously right isn't that what you want to do isn't that how you want to live

[35:44]

clinging onto something. All right. That's very nice. We want to be virtuous, but just maybe a little later after I figure out. There's something here I'm trying to get worked out. I don't have time for this virtue thing. If I let go of this to go over to the virtue, I don't know, something maybe. Anyway, whatever it is, if it's the appearance of a government that's doing harm to people, if it's a government which is doing not harm to people, You still have your life to live in relationship to this phenomena, whatever it is. And whatever it is, is partly what you think of it. That's the conventional world where some people think this is like really abusive, other people think it's appropriate. But however it appears to you, how it appears to other people is maybe later. Later, let's figure out, get into how it appears to them.

[36:48]

After you're enlightened, you can worry about them, how they teach them. But for now, I have to understand how I see phenomena if I want to be a beneficial event in relationship to them. So this class is about how you can understand things in such a way that based on that understanding, you will do the virtuous thing. And so you're saying that you see an abusive situation, and you can go on, but basically abusive. And part of the abuse is that these people are acting on your behalf, they say, and they're also taxing you. They're saying, give me your money so we can do this with your money. And you find that it appears to be abusive or whatever. Robbery. In the feudal times, you know, they used to tithe the peasants less than they tithe us, the government's.

[37:55]

We get taxed more. Of course, we're so rich that, you know, so what if they tax us? But anyway, they're taking the money and they're using it in ways that you don't like. You don't like it. You'd like them to use the money to have, you know, better schools and have better healthcare instead of more bombs, probably. Because you live in Berkeley area. That's what you think. Okay? And some other places, I don't know what they think. Everybody's got this opinion of what's going on and we can't avoid it. Now, what is actually going on? And we have to understand. And if we understand, we will be able to make a virtuous response. That's what this teaching is about, is to help each of us be a more beneficent skillful virtuous being in the world where we see things that we they do look terrible and we're not trying to change the way they look they look terrible now what now with that appearance of terribleness now what more can i study and learn about it how can i find the middle way that this terrible thing actually exists because i hear that that will bring

[39:24]

Wisdom, peace, calm, freedom, and skillfulness. That's what the Buddha said from the early days. Okay? Yes? I was just thinking that situations that I've come with in the last couple of weeks, I've been trying to ask, what's my part in it? If it's been a conflict or something that needs to be resolved, rather than trying to separate myself from it. Uh-huh. That's somewhat what you're saying, is that what's my part in whatever the abuse is, or what's my part in whatever the good is? Uh-huh. That's part of the meditation. The other part of the meditation is whatever the thing you're looking in, what's your part in it, that it? Okay? Is that it? Okay, the it? The it derives its existence from things other than itself.

[40:26]

And one of the things other than itself that it derives existence from is you. So you have a part in it and your vision has a part in it. Your opinions have a part in it. A lot of other things do too. And also remember that the thing itself, although you have a part in it, this teaching says you do have a part in this thing, but the thing... doesn't have any part in itself. The thing is empty of making itself. So it's not just that you have a part in it, and it's not that the thing isn't there, but the thing does not come to exist by itself, from itself, on itself. So do both. That you're contributing to it, but also it's not contributing to itself. It's hollow of self. and it's partly full of you, but not just you. And you're the same.

[41:26]

So do it with the thing, but also don't forget to turn around and do it on yourself. And remember that you also depend on that thing, and you depend on things, these other things, and there's one thing you don't depend on. That's yourself. But what you said is one ingredient in the meditation. That's good. Beth. Beth. Yeah, the Beth. That's the Beth. You can go forward to emptiness, too, if you want to. Maybe. I'm still trying to figure out who I am and kind of co-arising. I'm trying to make my brain, trying to make examples. And I think you used color in the beginning of the lecture somewhere. I keep thinking, because I'm an artist, I think color really doesn't exist. It's a reflection. You think something's a little bit, but it's really not. It's everything but blue. And, you know, I'm trying to put physical world in that box in my mind just because of that.

[42:31]

Maybe I can understand it. Am I going anywhere with this work? Colors and... I'm looking at you. I'm really getting your reflection out of the mirror rather than an essence of being. I'm seeing all the parts that are making you up and all the other things that are happening at the same time. Well... You're really not there. You are seeing that. It's true you're seeing that. However, you're also seeing your concept of me. And your concept of me is mixed in with the unconceptual thing you're seeing, the non-conceptual color thing that's happening over here for you. And The conceptual way that you see me is opposite of the way you said that I am. You don't see, I don't think you see, the way I'm created by things other than myself. I don't think you see that.

[43:33]

I think you see the way I appear to be making myself happen. And when you look at color too, you don't see the way that color is dependent on everything other than itself. You don't see that. You see the color as though it were there by itself. That's the way it looks in terms of your dominant conceptual consciousness. We've touched on behavior and how we're behaving as a result of viewing what you do and what I do. Say it again? The other conversation's been about our behavior, about how we behave. Right. If I don't... And I can't put... If I look at you or look at a color and I can't, well, let's say I do, and I see you in terms, the way I see you is mediated by some image of you, then I don't see the way your other dependent nature, I don't see it. And if I believe the images I have of you as being you, then my behavior will be more or less, will be less virtuous, right?

[44:46]

My behavior will be less virtuous if I believe in my conception of you, if I believe in the image of you that I have. If I believe that, then my response to you will be relatively less skillful and less appropriate and less kind than if I didn't believe that. Now, if I could actually see... the difference between the way you're appearing to me as color, which depends on things other than itself, if I could see the difference between that and the image I have of you, if I could see that they were two different things rather than being mixed, then I would see in such a way that I would be most virtuous at the moment I saw you that way. My behavior would be based on a different understanding of who you are. And so the meditation is to try to hear teachings which say that things are like you said colors are, namely they depend on things other than themselves and they don't make themselves exist.

[45:55]

Listen to those teachings to gradually loosen our belief in the imaginary way we see things. Imaginary way we see things means seeing things in terms of images. So we actually see people directly as they're happening in this other dependent way that's actually hitting us all the time. However, we mix in with it an imaginary way that they are, and they look like they're one thing. We have to learn that that isn't, we have to learn that dependent co-organizing of that mixing, plus we also have to learn that the thing actually, aside from our imagination of it, is in this other dependent way, which doesn't have an identity. So it's hard for us to see things when they don't have identities. When they have images, then we can put words on them, they have identities and they're very chunky and nice and solid for us, which we're used to. So this teaching is to try to get us ready to open up to this way that things are in this unidentified way.

[47:02]

But even before we can see it, just hearing the teaching, you start to understand, even though you can't see separately the way beings are happening to us or for us in this dynamic, other-dependent way, even though we can't see it because it's mixed in with our imagination, we can hear a teaching about it, and we start to understand even before we can see directly. We have an indirect understanding of these things. It's conceptual. So we have a conceptual understanding of things being beyond our conception. And we start to, and our behavior starts changing in relationship to them when we stop, or I should say when we start more and more relating to objects which includes colors and people and ourselves and our feelings and our thoughts, relating to your thoughts about the government, your thoughts about colors, your thoughts about people, your thoughts about your own pain, relating to all these phenomena with the teaching that says these things

[48:18]

are actually existing in this fundamental way, which is the basis of the imaginary way. The imaginary way operates on the fundamental way. The fundamental way is this other-dependent way. Everything that happens is happening through the auspices of things other than itself and not by itself. And it's overlaid with an imaginary way that looks like it operates by itself. So you keep... You use your imagination to counter your imagination and more and more imagine the way things are according to the teaching. And you start to relate to them that way rather than the way they appear. Just like if somebody told me, let's say I thought Rochelle was, you know, kind of my friend. But some people told me, you know, actually Rochelle is your best friend. You don't know it, but she's like constantly doing things on your behalf. She's going all over the Bay Area trying to like do good things for you. She's always, you know, everybody can see that but you.

[49:21]

She's like super devoted to you, you know. And you have just like the tiniest little view of that. You know, you sort of know, but actually she's inconceivably devoted and kind to you. And you just keep listening to that, listen to that, and pretty soon, even though she looks like she's like, you know, 10% kind to me, you know, I hear that she's 100% kind and I hear that and I hear that and I hear that and I put less emphasis on the way she appears to me and more emphasis on the way I hear she is according to the reliable sources. And pretty soon I start, you know, she looks like a 10% friend but I start relating to her as 100%. You know? So it looks like things are like mostly solid and you hear that really they're mostly like interdependent and there's really nothing about them that makes themselves happen you hear that and you can't quite see it yet but you start relating to people based on that anyway and it feels okay to do it because you start to notice some good things are happening you start to notice even though it's just your idea of it

[50:39]

And just you can check with your friends and just their idea of it too, that you're becoming more virtuous. It does seem like everybody thinks you're getting more virtuous and it feels good. And you're feeling, you know, less self-righteous and you're feeling happier and freer. And there's still a lot of problems in the world, but you're making nice contributions. moment by moment, person by person, because you're less believing your fantasies about people, including your fantasies that they're 100% your friend. Whatever the fantasy is, you're less and less believe it because you're being told that things are in a way that they don't look. Because you can't see how things are. are actually existent in dependence on things other than themselves. You can see a little bit, you know, but only a tiny little bit.

[51:45]

And also you can't see how things do not make themselves. You can't see that. Not when your imagination is presenting the other version, but you can hear the teaching over and over from all different directions of Buddhism saying, we're really serious about this. Not serious. We're not serious. We're really like emphatic about this. We really do mean that this is an essential thing for you to deal with all the time. So get used to it. And be mindful of it and keep training yourself to counteract your imagination using your imagination in another way. And then using your imagination this other way, you will become convinced. And you'll be happy too in this conviction. You'll start to notice that this conviction goes with not quite complete freedom yet, because in order for complete freedom, you have to actually start to see these two realms separated.

[52:51]

You have to see the difference between, oh, this is my idea and this is the way things appear separate from my idea, and they're not the same. There has to be, like, actually be able to see that someday. In the meantime, you can become convinced that things are not the way they appear. Olivia? I want to know how we see ourselves more clearly. I want to know how we see ourselves more clearly. Not what we think. How do you see yourself? Who we are. Well, I've mentioned this many times. It's like, usually, I don't know, usually we sort of think, I'm here and I'm talking. Or I'm here and I'm looking at you. Which is similar to looking over at you and think you're there looking at me. But let's just start with me. So me thinking that I'm talking to you and I came to the yoga room and I'm teaching the class, blah, blah, blah.

[53:56]

This is delusion. Which we come by honestly. We're born with it. So this is an a priori self. A given self before things happen. A self that already made it. It's already here and then it keeps making itself be here for everything that happens. and then it does things to the things that happen around it. The other way is things happen and then there's me. That's a different understanding of the self. And before these things happen, there isn't a me here. And the identity of me, well, forget about the identity, the experience of me as just being everything that's happening then there's no self there that's making itself, and yet that is myself, is everything that's happening. This is a...

[54:57]

I was talking about essence, that we put an essence over ourselves. That's what we create. We create ourselves, and I think that's the only problem there. Everything you do, put the new essence over yourself that you've now created and called, this is me. These are my actions. This has become me. This is who I am. Right. So at the same time, you could do it. You're saying that you always realize there's the... illusion of who you are. But behind that, that I have created, all of that stuff, which I think are my actions, my virtues, da-da-da-da, is something inside there, behind that, or in there. That's what I'm saying. How do we see our true nature, I guess is what I'm saying. How can we more clearly see something other than all of that which we... create with depend on all of the others around us and use you can't see yourself other than all the things around yeah you can't see yourself other than all the things around you and through you that you're not anything in addition to that but if you understand that you understand the kind of self you are and this is called a happy self

[56:20]

Or we sometimes call this a fulfilled self. The unfulfilled self thinks that she's already here. And the one who thinks she's already here wants... doesn't feel fulfilled, and she's trying to get things to fulfill her. This is a normal self. You think you're already here, you've already... An essence has been projected on your being. An essence has been projected on the person who's made independence on others. And then that self exists independent of the things that made her. And now that she's been made that way, now seeing that she's made that way, now she's not only stuck, but she wants something now because she feels unfulfilled. Now that she's been made into an essence, she's hungry. Like I said, I quoted the beginning of this book called The Famished Road. at the beginning of the book it says it doesn't say I changed this but anyway I guess I was inspired by this book in the beginning there was the unborn and the unidentified and the unknown and it was like a river and then the river got covered by a road and the road covered everything

[57:48]

But because the road was originally a river, it was always hungry. So you are originally unborn, unknown, unidentified, and you're like a river. But then the river gets covered over by a road, in essence, which is nice because you can put heavy equipment on it. However, because the road was originally a river, you're always hungry. You got your road now, but you're yearning for something. What are you yearning for? You're yearning for this unknown, unborn, unmade river. the flowing, interdependent way that you come to exist and non-exist.

[58:54]

That world of actual life you yearn for. You got yourself, but yourself's unfulfilled. Your fulfilled self is a self that you get by appreciating how everything makes you. When you see everything that's happening and you see that's your life, you feel fulfilled. You have no control. You can't put heavy equipment on it. You don't get to have an essential self. You don't get an a priori self. You just get a self. Every moment, you get a self given to you by everything. Thank you. And then it gets taken away right away because since everything gave it, everything takes it away. And everything gives it again, takes it away. You always get one. But it doesn't have an essence. You're not in charge of it. You are not in charge of it. Everybody else is. You're not. And this is the fulfilled self. This self isn't hungry. This is a river. This is an unknown, unidentified river.

[59:57]

And it's sometimes a big river, a little river anyway. It's alive. But no heavy equipment on it. They sink in it. And then they become happy too. Okay? That's your true self. It's this unknown, unidentified, unborn, constantly changing, flowing life self you've got. And you get one every moment under the auspices of everything, basically, but anyway, a lot of things that aren't you. And you don't get it by yourself. That's your true self. You always got it. The river's always flowing underneath the road. It's there all the time. It's kind of like, get the road off there. Or at least if you're riding in the road, you say, okay, I'm riding in the road. This nice truck here. This is nice.

[60:58]

But actually, something else is going on underneath. And the more you tune into that, the less hungry you'll be. And the more you'll be able to get off your truck and And, you know, give your lunch to somebody else. Because you won't be so hungry. Because you're getting closer and closer to feeling the river down there. Fran? So what exactly is that? What is it? I don't know. Breasts? Thighs? possessions, identity, knowing objects, and of course having accidents with the heavy equipment, having, you know, disasters, abuse, success and failure, birth and death, misery, happiness,

[62:10]

which you're scared of when you're experiencing it and scared of when it goes away, this is the heavy equipment. And none of it's satisfying. Although there are some thrills. You know, little boys do like to get up in those trucks sometimes. And little girls do like to watch them. But really, it's pretty scary and... It's going to go away soon. So before it all goes away, get back to the river. And you can't get back there right away because the road is basically your conceptual overlays, which are going to keep going on. But you can more and more hear the teaching of what's under the road. Under the road, which is solid, this is constantly changing, other-dependent. of everything that you're making into self-dependent. So our imagination is operating right over this flowing life.

[63:16]

So we need to convince ourselves more and more, have more and more conviction that there is this reality underneath our imagination. And our imagination is where we just build this whole world of birth and death. But remember, please, that this world of birth and death and misery and all this heavy stuff, that this exists for the Buddha too. This world is the lifeblood of the Buddha. The Buddha has this same world. It's just that the Buddha understands this world is an illusion, so the Buddha makes all these nice responses on top of the road. Buddha understands the river at the same time as knowing the road with all this traffic problems. So Buddha is a very good person to have in this world of birth and death. So you can become a Buddha according to the Buddha.

[64:21]

You can be a really good ingredient in the world of suffering because you understand the world beyond suffering or the world of the end of suffering. You know both. and you don't have a preference for nirvana and peace and freedom over this world, you're in both at the same time. This is the possibility that Buddhism is holding out. So as long as there's beings who are up in the road having, banging big pieces of heavy equipment on each other, you'll be up there trying to help them. But your resource is that you understand that it's an illusion And you still care about the suffering in that world of illusion. And you want to help beings kind of understand so that they can become free and teach others. Okay? Yes. First, it's about doing art in the process of understanding emptiness.

[65:29]

She said she has a question about doing art in the process of understanding emptiness, did you say? Because I was doing ceramic work in the morning, and I was really into it, and suddenly I heard the thought in my mind that, And it was a very compassionate thought. And almost I cried, you know, saying... What was the thought? Tell me. Am I really doing this to just escape? Is that another one? She said, are you doing this just to escape this artwork? Is that the question that arose? Yeah, that's a nice question. So what is the place for art in that? The place of art is the same place as everything. Namely, art is another thing to study and understand. If you do art and you don't understand the nature of the art, you're going to be less skillful than if you do understand the nature of art.

[66:34]

So if you're doing ceramics and you're meditating on the other dependent character of this process, you'll start to become more and more virtuous in your ceramic work. Until finally, if you keep practicing, the proposal is that you will come to be relating to the other dependent nature and the empty nature and the identity of them and you will find the middle way of making ceramics. And then you will be, you know, Buddha in the ceramic shop. But if you're doing art and you don't yet understand... The nature of the paints or the colors or the clay or the glaze, if you don't understand the nature of it, you are somewhat less virtuous in this world than you would be when you understand. So art is a wonderful place to study the nature of phenomena.

[67:37]

And as you know, many artists, that's exactly what they're concentrating on. What is color? What is paint? What is a brush? What is a hand? What is marble? What are my ideas? They're studying that. And when they sometimes understand, then their work is a benefit to all beings. But actually, it's not their finished product that's the benefit. It's the person who's relating in that way. So it's not so much the thing they're doing, but the way they have to be to do it. So like figure skating, you know? It's nice to see, but what really is beautiful is when these young people are flying through the air. It's the way they are that's what's so moving, not the fact that they're flying through the air. The way they have to be to do it is really what's so moving. And the way you are when you do certain art, when you're meditating on this teaching and you see it, that's what's important.

[68:43]

That's what the art makes possible. It gets complicated, though, because then, you know, he has his art to give away and get money for and stuff like that. It gets complicated when you start selling it. That's the heavy equipment part. My difficulty comes because I get obsessed with that. You get obsessed, yeah. And it doesn't leave me alone. Well, study that, too. Study the obsession. Okay, good. Anything else you want to bring up tonight? The other questions do I have? Do I have time to ask? Why don't you give somebody else a chance? Somebody else wants one. Reid? I was going to ask at first if any of us are born into the world without... the road covering the river. Many of us are born into the world just as the river.

[69:46]

But then I want to change my question to say, are any of us, because I think I know now the road is necessary, but... Just let me say, okay, we're all born into the world with the river. You're still with the river, even now. The river is still really, the basis of all of our fantasies is the river. So we're still in touch with it. It's still happening. It's just that we have this conceptual imagination overlaying it. So we still have the river. We never are ever, [...] ever away from it. That's the other dependent character. Are we all destined to struggle and find or discern the river? Are we destined to find the river through the road? Yes. All of us? I mean, are any of us just automatically aware of the river? Does that make sense? Do some of us get a glimpse of the river? Are you asking that? Without struggle. Without struggle? I don't know.

[70:50]

But I kind of think that if somebody does, I would say, fine. But that there's some other people who got some struggle to do. And they're a little bit more interesting. It sounds like you're saying the road... The Buddha struggled. Yes? Yeah, it sounds like you're saying the road is suffering. The road is the world of suffering. The road is the world of hunger. Hunger. There was a movie that was called The Hunger. It's about vampires. We're hungry on the road. And in that hunger, we then try to get more blood, hoping that that will... but it doesn't, so we try to get more. This is the world of suffering, yes. Greed. And then based on that greed, greed's more primary. More, I want more, I'm hungry, hungry.

[71:54]

Then we can even be into anger and hatred because something's interfering with our eating habits. So greed, hate, and delusion arise based on this overlay. by misconstruing the river as the road. The road's okay, the river's okay, okay? It's the confusion of the two that gives rise to greed, hate, and delusion and stupid activities based on greed, hate, and delusion which cause the whole process to keep going and more and more heavy equipment bumping into each other up on top of the road and more hunger and so on. That's the world. But Buddha lives there. This is Buddha's world too. Buddha's in there, you know, directing traffic, giving various little hints to the drivers, you know, administering medicine in a way to ask people, how are you feeling, you know? Want to hear some dharma? So we don't want to look down on the road, but the road is the world of greed, hate, and delusion, which is based on confusing our imagination with the river.

[73:08]

solidifying our imagine of a solid covering over something that's totally you know totally alive and ungraspable but we can live it's our life but you can't get a hold of it so that's this is the world of birth and death and underneath the world of Nirvana and they're like right next to each other all the time we've got both are always available and And we just have to, like, do a little meditation to get it straightened out. So I hope you're enjoying the meditation. Because, you know, it will become clearer if you keep practicing it. It gets clearer. And not only does it get clearer, but your behavior starts to get more and more virtuous as it gets clearer. Even before it's completely clear, you're somewhat more virtuous. And sometimes very virtuous before it's completely clear.

[74:14]

Complete clarity means not only you're virtuous, but that you're not fooled at all anymore. So then you're even totally unhindered by confusion between the road and the river. And then you can really work on the road with everybody's in the road. It's good. It's called Buddha. It's called realizing your complete potential as an enlightened being. But it takes a lot of work, right? A lot of meditation necessary. So part of the compassion is to catch ourselves if we're distracting ourselves, but also be patient with ourselves if we're distracting ourselves and just, okay, now do you want to get back to not running away from it? Do you want to, even though you're working on the ceramics, not use this ceramic as a way to run away? Okay, yeah, all right. Bring the teaching to the activity, whatever it is.

[75:17]

This teaching can apply to any activity. And then gradually you start to practice with it, and your behavior starts to be transformed, and your vision starts to get clearer. Even though your vision is that you can't see anything other than illusion, that's clearer. And then you start to be convinced of what you can't see because of your illusions, and so on. But I guess we should stop now, because it's 9.20. Thank you.

[75:45]

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