Well, this story here is, Wang Bo comes to his monks and he says, you people are all slurpers of dregs. So that's the problem, this dreg slurping thing. If you travel like this, where will you have today? Do you know that in all of China there are no teachers of Chan? Now he says this to the monks because he came into the room and he tried to get them to interact and they wouldn't. They didn't interact in much of a way at all. They just sort of stood there. He says... You know, how about today?"

[01:03]

And then one monk does come forward and interact with him and say, Did I say, don't you know that in all China there's no teachers of Chan? Did I say that just now? So the monk comes forward and says, well, how can you say that? What about all these Zen monasteries where these people are gathering monks together and interacting with them? And Wang Bo says, I didn't say there's no Chan in China. I said there's no teachers of Chan. So this is his way of teaching, all right? Now, I guess what I'd like to ask you to look into is can you see what's happening in this story?

[02:15]

Can you see what's happening when some Zen teacher comes and says, first of all, calls you a drug slurper? What's he talking about when he calls you a drug slurper? What's happening there? When somebody calls you, when Juan Bo calls you a drug slurper, what's happening? Melissa? Like in the story with Ismis, where the wheelway addressed the monarch and asked if the ancients he was breeding were alive and the monarch said they were dead. And that's what I see is happening here. When the ancients are dead for us, then absolutely any situation like this strikes me. Well, Maybe this is what you mean, but maybe what I'm going to say is what you mean, rather than what I think you just said.

[03:26]

Okay? I think it's okay if the angels are dead. I think it's fine if they're dead. Okay? That doesn't make you a drug slurper. Okay? That's not what you mean, right? The fact that Buddha is dead doesn't make you a drug slurper. I mean, if you'll let me say something else. Yeah. I think when we breathe the life of our experience into what we're reading or what we're hearing, what our teachings are telling us, then we bring them into the present. Then they're alive. Yeah. Okay. But even if they're dead, it's okay as long as you don't try to get them. And even if you make them come alive, the way of making them come alive is not by reaching for them. Right?

[04:29]

That's the way you make them come alive. So I would say, you know, for me, I don't think Wang Bo was really meaning that those monks were drug slurpers. I don't think if Buddha comes in and tells you you're a drug slurper, that Buddha means you're a drug slurper. Or if you're not a drug slurper, just the question is, what is being free of that? What is the life of freedom right now? So the homework was and is, what is the life of freedom right now? And if Wang Bo is talking, saying stuff like, there are no teachers of Chan, if that's the way he's talking, when you hear that, what is going on there?

[05:42]

What is he trying to show you? And can you see what he's trying to show you and can you come forth and respond to this freedom? Yes. The way I took it was that... Took? No, no, no, not took. The way I see it. Do you see it? Oh, good. How do you see it? I see it that these guys are sitting around and that they're living on past glory. They're not alive. Right, right, but what about now? Today, for me? Yeah. Where are the guys sitting around now? Is there somebody sitting around now, living on past glory? Maybe all of us, I don't know. Well... Maybe all of us, all of us. Well... Okay, if we are, then where's the life for us? It's in... The Chan is in... It's in me. Do you see it?

[06:43]

Yeah. Let's have it. Well, unfortunately, I can't teach it to you. Okay, don't teach it to me. Fine. What is it? Please, show it to me. You're grasping. Show it to me. I guess I just have to, whatever I do would have to resonate in my heart, in my mind, and I would have to be fully in the present and right there and just breathing it. Right, right, right, right. Now, come on. Well, I don't think if I was like pretending to be it, then it wouldn't be it. No, don't pretend. Do it. You gave yourself good instruction. Come on now. From there, please. Without grasping it.

[07:44]

Can you feel it? Yes, Chan. Without reaching for any dregs, please. Anybody. Where's your life of practice? Where's your life right now? Now. Right now. Anybody else do their homework right now? It's before that. It's before that. Yeah, it's early. Very early. In early dawn, the monkey stole fruit. After sunset, the phoenix took his straw. There's no chan. What did you say? There's no chan. There's no chan either. This is bitter tea. Can you make wine without the drugs?

[08:52]

Can you make wine without drugs? I don't know. I don't know if you can. Probably you can't. Okay. Did you hear a question? Can you make wine without dregs? I say probably you can't. In other words, can you practice, can you live without memory? Probably not. Can you give up your memory right now and be here without memory? Yes. Yes. You may not be able to make wine without dregs, but you don't have to drink the dregs.

[09:54]

You can refrain from drinking the dregs. But it's there. Pardon? Pardon? The dregs, they are there. Yeah, memory is there too, but you don't have to hold on to it. You can give it up. If that is so, if you give it up, then could you do your homework before now if what you were doing your homework was now? Before. What does it have to do with now? I don't know. What is it? Well, when you asked, when I said, now, were you doing your homework before now? I said that? Did I say that? Were you not doing your homework? I'm not looking back to see if I did, but did I say that? Does anybody, without looking at your memory, did I say that?

[10:57]

Doesn't sound like me. The comic then came about the phoenix and the straw. Yeah, we won't talk about that. So do you have anything more that you want to say right now? No. Okay. Does anybody want to get anything out of this class? No. You do? What? What do you want to do? Yes. Nobody? No drug slurpers here? Fantastic. Do you want to, should we stop the class now?

[12:02]

Neil? Well, it seems like it's good to come here and listen to you talk. Listen to what? You. Me? Yeah. What about you? Well, I'm listening. And listening to other people talk. Yeah. And just seeing how this koan is studied. It's... Well, it seems like a good thing, which I preferred over not coming, so I just thought there was something to get. Well, now that you're here, though, how are you doing? Right now I feel a little embarrassed. What does embarrassed mean? Oh, it's just... Shy.

[13:09]

Shy, yeah. Speaking in public. What does shy mean? Hmm. Scared? Shy. Not confident. Not confident. What would confident be? Unselfconscious. Let's see. Confident would be not self-conscious? I think it would be... Or would confident be, if you were self-conscious, you would be self-conscious? I'm not sure. Do you know what the word flustered means? Yeah. Do you feel flustered?

[14:10]

Slightly. What does flustered mean? A little at wit's end or a little confused, I think. You feel at wit's end? Yeah, not knowing quite, not having my wits about me. No wits about you? Let's see. Well, that's a drug slurping over there. Did you see that? That was looked over there. Did you see your eyes go over there? Did you feel your eyes looking for something? For there? Your eyes went that way. Oh. You can come back here now. Oh, okay, thank you. I think I feel a little... Stay here. Yes, thank you. You feel a little... As though I'm interrupting this class and that... You're not interrupting the class. You are the class. Okay, good. Then I just like to feel calm. You like to feel calm. Do you feel calm?

[15:11]

I'm working on it. How do you work on being calm? I... I try... I don't think of this as being something I should hurry through. I'm just trying to explain myself. Good. And... You take all the time in the world. Tell me what has happened. Well... I just breathed out. And I noticed my eyes don't always stay looking at your eyes. Yeah. They don't have to always do that, except when you're talking to me, it's a good idea to do it. All right. Because, you know, here I am. Thank you. Why do you think people are coming to this class?

[16:18]

Because of their Buddha nature. What does this mean? What does what mean? What is... Well, this class... Well, that's... That's what I think the real reason is. But some people might think that they're coming to this class to learn what this story is about. They want to get something out of the class. Maybe they're coming for that reason. That's why I asked earlier if anybody here is wanting to get anything out of this class. I just wanted to see if anybody would say, yeah, and then I could find out what it was. But if they don't answer and they say no, then I think the reason they want to come to this class is to celebrate their Buddha nature, which is being exactly what you are. That's why I encourage you to be confident that if you're embarrassed, you can be embarrassed.

[17:31]

And what embarrassment is, I think, about, and shyness is about, is you're having trouble being you. Well, I feel like that's what I think those words mean. Well, I'm feeling a little better than I did initially when I first mentioned being embarrassed. And better means? Less embarrassed. More willing to be yourself? Well, I'm not sure. If you're not too sure, you can just sort of answer even without being sure. Are you more willing to be yourself? So, yes, yes, you know, I feel a little more willing. I feel a little more willing than I did five minutes ago, seven minutes ago. Yeah, yeah, that's good, I think. What's wrong with the embarrassed self? What's wrong with the embarrassed self? Did somebody say something wrong with it?

[18:34]

No, but there's an implication that... Getting close to something by not being embarrassed anymore. Well, I think embarrassed... I think we use the word embarrassed when we're feeling... we're having trouble kind of like coming close to being who we are. There's nothing wrong with being embarrassed. Embarrassment is kind of like a... a little kind of a... it's that kind of a helpful message that we're having a little trouble residing at our experience. We maybe feel like, you know... I'm not allowed to be who I am right here? Like, sometimes you say to some kid, you say to a kid, you know, you're beautiful, and they feel embarrassed because they're not sure it's okay to just sit there and be told that she's beautiful or he's beautiful. You know what that word means? You know what that word means? Embarrassed? When you take the root parts, M, like in, or like, and then bare, and then ass, really. Being bare ass, that's like...

[19:35]

It's being yourself. It's having trouble with that. It's having difficulty of being naked. Of being who you are without any... You know, just being beautiful. Or just being poor. One of the meanings of being embarrassed is to be poor when you're not supposed to be poor. When you don't think it's okay to be poor. To be poorer than you... are proposing that you really are, or that you've gotten accustomed to, or people expect you to be. Is there more wine than dregs, or should we... Is it of an equal amount? In a sense, I'd say, you know, in a way, I think... I'd say there's more dregs than wine. Because the wine is just this... this very much un... unaccompanied moment. Whereas our history is, you know, huge.

[20:42]

All the teachings and good things and things we depend on is quite large. And what we think we might be doing in the future could be large too. But the wine is very rare, moment by moment. It's the most... The wine is just our pure nakedness and our pure simplicity. So in a way, in proportion, in a sense, you could say there's more of the other. And all the other we can grasp. This wine, in one sense, it's so small you can't grasp it. In another sense, it's so big that you can't grasp it. So although it's rare, it can be very big. Big beyond big and small beyond small. They're tinier than tiny. But in a sense, you can't grasp it, right?

[21:46]

And we have a little difficulty living a life devoting ourselves to something we can't grasp. We have trouble devoting ourselves to a freshness that we can't get. So this class and this koan are encouragements for us to come to every occasion with a non-gaining attitude. It's kind of an inhuman way of being. Yes. When you asked if you were coming to get anything, my response was, that's what I'm here to try to get. After the last class, I got the image of going wholeheartedly for something without grasping for it.

[22:53]

And I felt like I could do that a little bit, and then I lost it. And so if I'm coming for something, I feel like I am coming for that. And maybe I'm coming for the reminder of that. Is that what you mean when you say celebrated brotherhood? Is that the same thing? No. OK. Robert?

[24:04]

Well, the thing about wine is you get, well, if you take drugs, you get sick. And so with wine, it's a matter of getting, well, drunk. Excuse me. Yeah? I didn't know that if you take drugs, you get sick. Do you know that for a fact? I doubt you'd get sick from dregs. Then why would you want to avoid dregs? If you try to avoid dregs, I think the dregs have got you. I think dregs are like, you know, pretty innocuous stuff, pretty much like roughage. Huh? Yeah, I don't know. I actually don't know much about dregs, but it's like sediment, you know? And probably in the case of sake, it's probably like rice sediment. It's probably just kind of like grain. Probably wouldn't hurt you that much.

[25:06]

Excuse me, but I think that the point is not that the drugs are bad. I don't think drugs are that bad. I don't think drugs are poisonous or bad for you. I think the problem is the attitude or the impulse to get them. How about like an orioke? Okay, at the end of an orioke meal, go around and collect water and, you know, and you offer the water and keep the dregs, right? Uh-huh. You could say that. Yes, and what do you do with the dregs? You slurp them. Huh? You drink, you slurp them, yeah. But do you slurp them to try to get something? No, you do it... No, no. No. It's okay to drink dregs, but to drink dregs with the intention of verifying that you don't trust your life, to confirm that you don't think your life is worthwhile, then dreg slurping is a problem.

[26:22]

But there seems to be kind of a religious practice, I guess. I mean, it's like, okay, when you put others first... A kind of religious practice? No, no. Like putting others first, that would be a way of living, right? Yeah, that's a religious way. It would mean that would be drag-flopping, wouldn't it? No. Putting others first as a way of living when your idea... of what hurting others first is, if that's what you reach over to refer to to find out what that kind of living was like, then that would be drag-slurping, and it wouldn't be living for others. It would be living according to your idea of what living for others was. So if you have some idea about how to help me, and you come and meet me, and then you reach into your little satchel and pull out your instructions about how to help me, okay, that's you doing your trip on me. it's pretty nice and probably work out fairly well. And the way it'll work out well is that you get a great spiritual opportunity from me when you do that.

[27:34]

When I see you reaching into your satchel to find out how to help me, you'll get a spiritual opportunity at that time because you're trying to be helpful, okay? And that trying to be helpful is setting up the opportunity where you're going to get big help. Because I'll take your satchel away. Won't I? Yeah. And you'll say thank you, right? Yeah. And then there you'll be, standing there, you know, helping me. Helping me without knowing how you're going to possibly help me because you forgot how you help people. You're standing there nakedly helping me. So it's okay to try to help people according to your idea of how to help people. It's all right. It's okay. Because that sets up the opportunity for you to actually help people. And the way to actually help people is to be yourself, fresh, not even knowing how to be yourself. That helps people.

[28:38]

When you're that way, then you just share that with everybody. But if you have this idea of helping people and you carry that around with you, that's just delusion. However, it's a good kind of delusion. It's one of the best kinds of delusions. And people who are carrying that delusion are easy to give them a chance to drop that delusion. Because theoretically, if you tell them, now you want to help people? They say, yes. Say, well, would you then be willing to put down your idea of helping people if you thought that would be helpful? Then you probably say, well, I guess I would, but I'd rather not. I'd rather actually continue helping people the way I thought would be helpful. Say, yes, but we really would prefer for you to do it not your way, but our way. Would you be willing to do that? Say, well, oh, all right. Okay. Okay. I'll put it down. Now what do you want me to do? It's enough. For now. And now, I actually want you to pick up your old idea and do that.

[29:44]

Would you be willing to do that? I don't know. Not to get off the subject, but could you tie what you just said in with loving-kindness practice? Could I tie it in with loving-kindness practice? Yes. Let's see. Could you do it for me? Do you have some idea how to do it? Besides being present for people if they need help, or being mindful of the difficulties and problems that people face, I suppose that would be the best way to do it.

[30:46]

To me, that's my idea of loving kindness. That would embrace loving-kindness without even thinking of it, right? Yeah. But if you found yourself in a state where you noticed in your mind some kind of, what do you call it, hateful, some ill will towards somebody, then in a state like that, it sometimes helps to bring up, if you can, bring up loving-kindness at the same time as this ill-will. What he called the alchemical interaction between the thoughts of loving-kindness in combination with thoughts of ill-will tends to calm and ameliorate the ill-will. The ill will is a manifestation of our unwillingness to simply be the person we are, whatever that is.

[31:51]

If the ill will has already arisen, sometimes loving kindness is very good to sort of like gently get intimate with the ill will. In that process you're starting to, although you're starting to become willing to be the person who has the ill will. If you're willing to be a person who has the ill will, the ill will loses its power. It really isn't the ill will anymore. Then you drop down to being a person who's probably in pain. Most people who have the ill will are in pain. But they, having trouble being this person who's in pain, and they're having trouble settling with and being present with their pain, and that is the template for ill will. Now, the ill will is a manifestation of being unwilling to be this person who's in pain. But if you then are willing to be kind and intimate and tender with the ill will, then you've become someone who's willing to be with who they are, and then you drop down to being a person who's willing to be with this pain.

[32:59]

The old world goes away then. Now, being willing to be with your pain, you can be aware of the fact that the reason why you're in pain, the reason why we are in pain, is that we think that we can be other than what we are. Or that there is something other than what we are. Like, for example, Wang Bo. That he's other than me. Or that there's some Zen practice that's other than me. Or some Buddha that's other than me. Or some... safety or peace that's other than me, the way I am right now. That's the source of my ongoing pain. If I can be present with that, I can settle down to not slurping dregs. So in that way, loving kindness could be part of the process to bring myself back from the ramifications of slurping dregs to the point of being hateful or angry, or lustful or whatever. Take myself back down to the basic situation, the basic situation of always trying to get something, use something to be me.

[34:14]

To get something to live my life. To reach for something outside myself. To validate myself. or to reach inside myself to validate myself. This is a very basic pivot that he's pointing to in this story of the monks reaching for something, reaching for something, reaching for Buddha to validate themselves, reaching for enlightenment, reaching for precious, marvelous Buddhadharma. He's saying, Let go of the marvelous wonders of Buddhadharma. Just let them drop. When it seems like that finally comes to you, then it's like... When what comes to you? When what that finally comes to you.

[35:17]

What's that? Letting go of the Buddhadharma. Just this whole teaching that Wang Bo is giving is, you know, why even drink wine when you can just drink water? And you already are drinking water. And... there's no drinks when you drink water. And I think that that's where, I mean, even Zazen, as simple a practice as it is, is sort of even more formalized than it necessarily has to be, because just by breathing, as a human, without beating heart, you're drinking water. Well, wait a second. I agree with you. Why drink wine? You don't need wine. But then, what about the water? Don't then say, okay, now I'll drink water then. No. Don't drink anything. but all these great teachers you know they aren't just saying water they're saying this is the best wine that's ever been made okay it is the best wine ever been made also this is really delicious water but it doesn't mean you can say okay I don't need wine give me the water no nothing you don't need anything but we produce the best wine to see if that will make you think oh well that's better than me

[36:29]

Wang Po is millions and millions of Chinese Buddhists. Here's one of the greatest ones. The monks come from all over to study with him. The greatest wine dispensary of all. And who cannot want to be with such a teacher? As it says here, you see 800 or 900 or 1,000 monks running from all over China to this guy. This is great wine. You shouldn't drink the wine, no. But can you resist this wine? after traveling across the country to not get it. Well, hopefully you can. That one guy did pretty well. But that doesn't mean you say, okay, I don't need wine, you know, forget about all wonderful buddhidharma, I'll just go be an ordinary guy, I'll use that to be a person. Well, you don't need to even use water. But it doesn't mean you can't drink water. It doesn't mean you can't drink wine.

[37:35]

It just means you don't have to. So you're right. You don't need any of this stuff. That's what he's saying. But how are you going to verify you don't need it without trying it? That's what Wang Bo does. He bows to Buddha himself. to verify that he's not trying to get anything from Buddha. A lot of people can say, hey, Buddhism, I don't need it. Religious experience, I don't need it. Enlightenment, freedom, I don't need it. Yeah, fine, you can say that. But you do 100,000 vows and see if then you still don't care about getting anything. Prove that you actually aren't trying to get into something by going through wholehearted effort, which is just only to prove that you're not trying to get anything. Choose anything. Walk around Mount Tam 100,000 times.

[38:37]

I don't care what it is. Put your whole effort into something and see if there's any kind of like trying to get something out of it. If it is, well, just drop that. But then don't just drop the practice too. Keep doing the practice and see if you can do the practice without trying to get anything. Sitting is really a nice practice to do. You just sit there, not trying to get anything right. Right? Just sit there, and every moment you sit, you just sit there, and you don't even say, I'm not trying to get anything. You just notice. If any kind of impulse comes up, I'm trying to get something, you say, oh, there's impulse to try to get something. There it goes. My sitting is not trying to get anything. My sitting is saying, I'm not trying to get anything. My life doesn't need anything It's already getting inconceivable support. I don't need any more support. Kevin? Do you think that you are in fact profounding dregs?

[39:41]

Do I think what? That you are giving us dregs? Or are you giving us wine when you speak to us? In this way. In this form. Do I think I'm giving you dregs or wine? Yes. Well, I wouldn't say, I'm not giving you dregs. I am not giving you dregs. I am not giving you dregs. I am not giving you dregs. Dregs, dregs, dregs, dregs. This is not dregs. Okay? I never do that. To say that what I'm giving you is wine, though, why say that? I'm not going to say what I'm giving you, but I'll tell you, I'm not giving you dregs. If you show me any dregs, show me dregs. Bring me dregs. Fine. Bring me dregs. I don't mind. Bring me dregs. If you want to bring me dregs, fine. I'm not giving you dregs. And when you bring me dregs, or you bring me wine, then I have to watch my practice to see, do I try to get anything? That's my practice, which I have to watch out for.

[40:43]

You see, if I become a dreg slipper, I bring this case here, this ancient story. to see if I can talk to you about this without this being dregs for me. In other words, without me reaching for Wang Bo for help in my life. Wang Bo doesn't help me when I try to use Wang Bo to help me. Wang Bo is telling me, I'm going to help you by you not trying to get any help from me. I express my respect for Wang Bo by not trying to use Wang Bo. If I notice I'm trying to use Wang Bo, then I know I have violated his teaching and I don't really respect him. He's very clearly telling me what he wants me to do. He's very clearly telling you what he wants you to do. He does not want you to use him. Isn't that clear? And isn't it hard?

[41:44]

If I say something to you now, Then it's up to you whether you're using what I'm saying. If it is, you should just confess. Okay, I tried to use what he said. I admit it. I confess it. That's it. Now I want to start over. I can't even remember what he said now. And I'm not just repressing it. So then, is this book dregs? Is the book dregs? I think it came up at the last class that we were all slurping dregs here. I think that the book will be dregs depending on your mind. Individually. Each one of us can make this book, can make this story into dregs by our attitudes. as Melissa said at the beginning.

[42:52]

If these beings are dead, and you leave them just dead and don't care about them, then they're not dregs. If these beings are dead and you try to use the dead, then you make them into dregs, and you become a dreg slurper. If these beings are alive in your heart right now, if Wong Bo is pounding in your heart right now, then you don't have to reach for Wong Bo. He's not dregs, and you're not a dreg slurper. And from that place where you feel this intimacy with the ancestors who you don't try to use, you can express today. And if you think you've expressed today to your satisfaction without reaching for any assistance from anybody else in the world, You don't reach for any assistance. But not reaching for any assistance means that you trust already that you're tremendously assisted.

[43:55]

It isn't that you don't depend on people. Everybody's helping you talk. You can't raise your arm up without people's help. When you reach for someone as though they weren't already helping you, you demean their assistance. Your Buddha nature is that everyone is already helping you. And you trust that when you don't reach for and try to use people or plants or anything. Like he says, I can't teach it and nobody can learn it from me. I just, without going fast or slow, it comes into my hands. You judge if you're going fast. You judge if you're going slow. You judge if it's coming into your hands. You watch it come into your hands. Notice, was it too fast? Was it too slow? I don't know. Oh, that was too fast. Uh-huh. That's how it goes. Oh, that was too slow.

[44:56]

Now I don't know. Is it coming into the hands yet? We do need it to come in. I think we need it to come into our hands. We need that encouragement. It's okay that you need a little encouragement to actually see it come into your hands. And even if you don't see it, then other people can see it. We need that. So, is it true that anything can be made into dregs and anything can be made into wine? Anything can be made into dregs, anything can be made into wine just by your attitude, right? If you reach for the flowers, they die. If you push away the weeds, they flourish. Without grabbing for the flowers or pushing the weeds away, you find the way. It comes into your hands. Your hands become flowers. And if there's any use, your hands will become weeds.

[46:06]

Whatever beings need, your life becomes that. If it would help beings for you to be dregs or be a dreg slurper, go right ahead. Sometimes it might help. Buddhists actually allow themselves to be made into dregs. Buddhists don't go around there and go into each person's head and turn off the dreg slurping activation mechanism. Buddhists let you make them into dregs. Now, they cry when you do that. You notice there's a little, you know, tears running down their cheeks. You say, what are you crying for, Buddha? He said, because you're slurping, you're slurping me. You're using, I can see you appreciate me, you're using me in an unhealthy way.

[47:17]

And I'm not going to stop you. But I'll show you what happens when you do that. And when you see that, when you see the Buddha's tears, when you try to use the Buddha, then you say, oh, that was really useful. That was really useful. The Buddha showed me how I was slurping by crying when I slurped. And I'll remember that forever. The monk said, I don't say there's no time. It was like he's holding out something for the monk. He grasped the whole monk, he was relaxed by it.

[48:24]

Like he didn't take out. Almost like he's holding something up. He means they're saying... There's no teachers, but I didn't say there was no time. Yeah. Like the monk couldn't take all the news. You mean he didn't say, not only are there no teachers of Chan, but there's no Chan either? Well, that's a fine statement. However, he was just sort of referring back to his earlier statement. I didn't say that. I said the other part. I just said there was no teachers. I didn't say there was no Chan. But now that you mentioned it, there is no Chan. Of course there's no Chan. He just didn't say there wasn't. But he felt that as a teacher of Chan, he had to say there's no teachers of Chan.

[49:25]

Teachers of Chan are responsible to say that, right? If there were no teachers of Chan, we wouldn't have to say that there wasn't any, right? Right? But there are kind of like teachers of Chan, like Wang Bo is a teacher of Chan. So he had to say that there wasn't any. But since there is no Zen, obviously there's no Zen, right? Nobody has a problem with that. So he didn't have to say that there wasn't any Zen. Matter of fact, he didn't. Most people know that there's no Zen, right? Most people know that, right? Sure. No, most people do, right? Most of you know that Zen's not the thing that there is. Like, there isn't, like, Zen, you know, like, over in the parking lot or, you know, under Katie's armpit. We don't think that way about Zen. No, most people don't, right? Look, that's why you can say, that's why you can say, the Zen of this and the Zen of that and the Zen of... You can say that about anything, right?

[50:32]

Because there isn't such a thing, right? Do you follow that? Because it's completely free... You can say it's any place and you can also say it's not there. And there is no way for anybody to come in and prove it except if you get a Zen teacher. You bring a Zen teacher and they say, no, there's not any Zen here and there is Zen over here. Now, of course, that's ridiculous, right? But you deal with a Zen teacher when they say that and something happens, right? You're not so sure. So in order to train ourselves at this thing, which most people know there isn't such a thing, we have these Zen teachers. And we say there really are these teachers, so then they have to be an antidote to themselves. But Zen doesn't need such an antidote, because most people don't dare say that there is Zen. I mean, people aren't doing that, are they? They are?

[51:33]

Who? When did that last happen? Please tell me. I'll write it down next time. I mean, was that clear? That's what that refers to. At the end, where it says, I don't say there's no charm, just that there are no teachers. And the comment is, he's only saved a half. He only saved a half. Was that clear? I mean, to me, that seems pretty clear, but I can imagine that maybe it isn't clear. It's not clear? No. Well, do you think that there's Zen? Do you think so? Well, I guess that, it seems to me, I've heard you say... Heard you say? Not that there's Zen, but to say that something such isn't entry, which seems to apply.

[52:37]

Right, yeah, exactly. Exactly. She said, she seems to have heard me say, such and such isn't Zen training. Right? But I don't say that isn't Zen. Or even if I did, that would just be, obviously I wouldn't mean that. I mean, isn't it generally known that Zen's not something that we own here at Green Gulch? I mean, some people may think that we actually own Zen here. I guess, do some people think that? Yes. It's called Zen Center. Yeah, so some people think, oh, they, because they put the sign up there, they own Zen. People think that? But really, I mean, I don't think that. I really don't think that. There's also a Zen spa in No Valley. Yeah, yeah, and I don't think that the people at the Zen spa think that they own Zen over in that spa or the Zen grocery store that they own Zen. But maybe some people do. Anyway, I don't think the Zen Center owns Zen.

[53:38]

I really don't. I never did. I never did. That never crossed my mind. Even now, it's all those crossing. It's like, it's moving through so fast. I don't think the Zen Center owns Zen. But Zen Center offers Zen training. I think it does. And Zen training does this teacher thing. We put this teacher thing up here and the student thing up there and the ceremonies and the rituals. We put that stuff up there. That's the stuff you play with for Zen training. Or you take that stuff away for Zen training. But you move these forms in and out for Zen training. But the form has nothing to do with Zen. But you use the forms to train people at Zen. Like you say to people, do you think there's Zen? That's a form. And then they say, yes. And you say, where? And then we get into it. And it gets pretty obvious after a while that through that form of dialogue, which is a traditional form of asking people, well, where is the Zen, it works out pretty well.

[54:44]

From the ancient times, you know, the teachers, the students say, I got a problem, the teacher says, show it to me. I got Zen, teacher says, show it to me. I got Buddha, teacher says, show it to me. I got, you know, whatever. There's a form, that's a training. But it isn't that the Zen's there and it's not next door where they're not talking like that. Zen is all pervasive. But to people at intimacy and completely settled with the Zen, if they say yes, we've got a training opportunity. If they say no, we've got a training opportunity. If they don't answer, we've got a training opportunity. So the training for me to say this is or this isn't Zen training, that isn't really that I think this is or this isn't Zen training, but I use this and this to train. whatever the form is, then it gives me a chance to say, that's not Zen training. It's not that it isn't, it just gives me something to talk about to see, can we realize Zen? Can we realize what it is to not be a drug slurper?

[55:46]

Can we realize our life? Our life has never, ever been any place other than where it is. It is completely all-pervasive. However, if you're the slightest bit off from your life, if you feel the slightest deviation from your life, it's almost like you completely lost your life and you're like a slave of your life because you're trying to use your life. The slightest bit of trying to use your life, you become a slave of life. Zen training is to remove that discrepancy so you're completely settled in what you're experiencing right now. And you can also experience and feel and realize that you have finally settled. You can finally say, yes, I am myself, and that's it. And that's good enough for me. And then, if you're in a training situation, you go and tell the teacher, and the teacher says, oh, yeah? etc.

[56:49]

And you see, if you really can continue to not try to get anything out of your life, after you said you weren't trying to get anything out of your life, and somebody else said, I still think you're trying to get something out of your life. I think you're, I just feel like you're not really trusting yourself. This is in training, in that moment. So there's a difference between training and Zen. Training is how you settle with it. Zen is the thing you are, that you can't yet there is no what you are is not anything at all you being you is not a thing but most people need training in order to be just what they are. Because we have been trained in the opposite direction to try to use what we are or improve what we are, which means to demean, to disgrace, to disrespect what we are.

[57:50]

Right? Peter? Peter? Yes? Go ahead. Is that it? Okay. If I got your name right, that would be enough. Maybe so, yep. Maybe you needed to do that to get ready for, now you're ready. It was good to have the permissions. I think when I first heard about this kind of thing, it felt like, if you have a broken leg and you go to the doctor, that's not safe. Like, that was a really scary thing to me. Like, well, if I get into this, I'm going to walk around with a broken leg. Well, or to hear that if you have a broken leg, you shouldn't go to the doctor and to slurp those dregs. Okay?

[58:54]

But anyway, I think you're right. Slurping dregs can be very useful. For a while, right? For as long as you need to slurp dregs, slurp them. Go to Buddha and slurp the dregs of darkness. Slurp them, slurp them, slurp them. And Buddha will let you do that. It's been like my Buddha nature a lot of times to say, what's the best thing we can do with this? Would you say it again? It seems like... My Buddha nature, as I get a bunch of it, was saying, what's the best thing we can do with this guy today? He's pretty hopeless. Let's have him at least go start some drugs. It's worked. He's done enough. Anything else he might get into today. I don't think that was your Buddha nature. That's what I'm bouncing off. I think the... Huh? I'm bouncing that off you to see what your question was. Yeah, I wouldn't call that your Buddha nature. I would call that your human nature. Human nature. Human nature. Perfectly good human nature.

[59:56]

That's what I would call that. And part of the path to realizing your Buddha nature is to let yourself get used to how it is that your human nature is functioning. So rather than like, don't slurp, try to stop yourself from slurping dregs because you heard that you're supposed to stop yourself from slurping dregs. In other words, slurp dregs as not slurping dregs. Okay? That's what a lot of Zen students do. They hear, no dreg slurping, so then they slurp that dreg of trying to stop themselves from slurping dregs. Well, that's kind of a little bit confusing, right? It's better to just slurp the dregs and say, okay, I'm slurping dregs. Admitting that you're slurping dregs could be not slurping dregs. Now, if I tell you that admitting slurping dregs could not be slurping dregs, and then you admit as a way of slurping dregs, then you're doing it again. But simply admitting that you're not really simply being what you are, but you're being what you are and trying to get something out of it, to keep noticing that, first of all, to do it like you're doing it, and to admit it, is a path to seeing how that all works.

[61:08]

So maybe you've caught yourself enough times at slurping dregs, umpteen billion times you've caught yourself, so that now you're willing to sort of like get ready to maybe kind of like make the transition over into just totally noticing and letting yourself be a dreg slurper. When you're a dreg slurper. And that's not dreg slurping. None of us, there's no way around, for all of our history, there's no way around any of our histories. Okay? So that's it. But we should admit, as best we can, admit our history as vividly and accurately as possible. Okay? And that's that. And now, here we are. We've admitted our history, but I can't remember what it is.

[62:17]

It's totally empowering me to say I can't remember what it is. What's your name again? Avery. Avery? I want to make sure I understood you correctly before I comment or ask something. Did you just say that if we are slurping dregs and are aware that we're slurping dregs, that might not be slurping dregs? Awareness that you're slurping dregs is not in itself slurping dregs. However, to try to be aware, now that I've told you this, now to sort of like use that technique, okay? So to say, now I'm going to be aware of my dregs slurping, because that would not be dregs slurping, then you have just, you reach for the flower, you grab it for the flower of not dregs slurping, and the flower will fall in your hand. But the flower of awareness of drag slurping is the flower of awareness is a flowering plant. It is a beautiful flower to be aware of what you're doing. If you're drag slurping, you say, Avery, we've got some drag slurping here.

[63:22]

That's it. But if you are catching yourself with that, with the idea that you're now improving yourself and not being a drag slurper anymore by being wonderfully aware of your drag slurping, then you make that, you defile that again. But if you're willing just to be a plain old drag-slurping person, and that's it. That means you're willing to be how you are right now. That's it. Not trying to get anything from anything. That's it. So then that won't be painful? Wouldn't be painful? That wouldn't care about whether it's painful or not. That sets you free. But to require that won't be painful is still drag slurping. When you arrive at that place and a big pain comes rushing up into your... a big experience of pain arises, then you do the same thing with that as you would do with observing drag slurping. Namely, nothing.

[64:25]

Nothing. Don't do anything with it. Don't run away from it. Don't congratulate yourself for it. You just feel it. Which is exactly what you're built to do because it's a feeling. And it just happens to be a big, painful one. That's all the Buddha would do under the circumstances. Well, not drag slipping feels to me like jumping off a cliff or not getting out of the way of a train. Would you say that again? I said not drag slipping. Sounds like jumping off a cliff? Feels to me like jumping off a cliff or not getting out of the way of a train. It is like jumping off a cliff. It feels like not getting out of the way of a train? Coming at you, yeah. Yeah, it's not getting out of the way. The train's coming at you. It's not like getting out of the way of the train. It's like, train's coming at me. That's what it's like. Train's coming at me. Not twice. I said it twice, but it's just train coming at me.

[65:26]

That's all it is. Now, some people think, oh, train's coming at me. Therefore, I should get out of the way of the train, which is fine. But first of all, got to have trains coming at me. That's the part people need to skip over. They say, train's coming at me. But before they notice the train's coming at them, they try to get out of the way of the train. If you're going to get out of the way of the train, fine. Train's coming at me, perfectly good. Getting out of the way of the train, perfectly good. Getting back in front of the train again just one more time, fine. Getting out of the way of the train again, fine. All the same. It's better not to get out of the way. It's better not to get out of the way? No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. Because it seems like there's no other way to call the bluff of that train.

[66:29]

Sure. That's right. And it's not the bluff of the train. It's called the bluff of drug slurping. So you say, okay, here I am. The train's coming at me. That's it. I'm not trying to get anything out of this. And I'm not trying to avoid anything like this. I just happen to have a train coming at me. That's fine. Now, I'm getting out of the way of the train. But it's not because I was, you know, not present the moment before. This moving out of the way of the train came from being completely present. Out of my presence and non-gaining experience of the train coming at me, I just stepped out of the way. But you're right to say, maybe... I could be more sure if I stayed in front of the train. Because then I'd know that I wasn't like running away out of lack of drag slurping, right? But you still might be running away because you might be putting yourself back in front of the train to prove in a drag slurping way that you weren't drag slurping. So how does one proceed?

[67:37]

Barsha? Well, that, it's like the story from last week about the priest who was going to die at the end of the incense burning. Yes. To prove that he would be the one to take over. Right. So standing, is that correct, sir? Standing from the train would be to prove that, you know, to call the bluff of direct slurping would be certainly safe. Yeah, to stand in front of the train or, you know, say, obviously I'm not slow slurping drugs because I'm just, I'm able to stand, stay here perfectly relaxed as the train comes. And people are impressed by this kind of thing. People would say, mmm, mmm. Or better yet, I'll die before the train gets here. That's another possible tool, too. Another person would say, well, stop the train. There's various things people would think would verify it. But I don't think so. Getting out of the way for a train doesn't prove it. Staying in front of the train, dying before the train gets there, stopping the train, levitating, these various things are not the way to prove that you understand.

[68:40]

What's the way to prove you understand? We do need to prove it. You need to prove it. How are you going to prove it? Well, how are you going to prove it? Here comes the train. Is that Hamilton? Yes. That's right. And then when you're that way, then... Then what? Then what? After that, Hamilton? Well, you wouldn't have to, no. But since you don't have to... you would try to prove it. Why would you, I mean, why would you try to prove it? Because you have to go beyond not caring about proving it.

[69:43]

And you can't, this is what, this is Liz's thing, you can't really prove that you're beyond not caring about proving it except by trying to prove it. And you can say, oh, well, you know, I mean, I really don't need to prove it. Therefore, I don't have to prove it to prove that I don't really need to prove it. But I say to you, you do need to prove it in order to prove that you don't need to prove it. You have to do that. You have to do it. And that's not drag slipping? Well, that's the point, you see. You say, I'm not drag slipping, therefore I don't have to prove it. I'm just who I am. I accept who I am and I don't have to prove it. I don't even care about proving it. I'm just who I am. Okay? I'm perfectly satisfied with the person I am. I don't have to prove it. Right? And when you're really that way, if you are that way, if you really are that way, if you really are free of proving your life, okay, then you have to become free of being free of proving your life.

[70:50]

And you have to be somebody who goes around proving himself all the time. You have to come back down and be a drug slipper in order to prove that you're not a drug slipper. All right. And that's why you have to come to class. Yes? Basha? So, in the everyday world of living outside of class, And, um... Don't talk about that, please. So, in, in, in, um, drinks working class, trying to bring it back to an outside environment, you know, I, I mean, I see that I come to class, one of the things I come to get in a drinks working way is something to support my life, which... I guess I see it's not enough.

[71:54]

You know, I don't feel the support. This class is just telling you to don't do that. Right. Stop coming to class that way, please. But if you do come that way, you can still come in the room. It's okay. Kind of on probation, but go ahead. Yes? I have a hard time understanding even not having drag slipping come into my life. I just aren't going any day away. You have a hard time understanding how to not have drag slipping come into your life? Yeah. Okay, okay. What did you say? Did you say there it is? Yeah, I mean, I just feel like... Okay, so this is a wonderful example. Now, you come to class, you hear about this, and I try to say, now, what would my life be like with not having dragslipping in it? Okay? Which is dragslipping. Okay? This practice is about, in your daily life, catching yourself a drag slurping.

[72:55]

Can you see, when you're in a conversation with somebody, how you try to reach for finding the way to talk to them? You're talking to somebody, so I think, now what am I supposed to say? What's the right answer here? You know, what would a nice person say? What would a Buddhist say? You know? That's a drag slurping. Does that happen? Do you notice that happening? Does it happen quite a few times in daily life? Well, then you spot the drag circling. Then you say, here I am. Of course, here it isn't so bad because out here nobody cares. At Zen Center I might get in trouble for it, but actually Zen Center people are so nice they don't call you on it either. Only in this class do you get called on. Or in situations where you say, okay, here I am. I might be guilty of drug-slurping. I'm trying to be free of it. You got me. Trying to be free of drug-slurping is drug-slurping. So rather than try to figure out what would your life look like not being drug-slurping, why don't you just realize that that's drug-slurping and go live your life and catch yourself a few times a day.

[74:04]

And then gradually catch yourself more than a few times a day. And then catch yourself quite frequently. Notice that you're constantly referring to your memory. You're constantly referring to some set of rules. You're constantly referring to where you want to go. You're constantly, like Neil was saying, reaching for my wits about me. You think you've got your wits about you, right? You're trying to reach for your wits to figure out how to live your life. This is... path of freedom from drag-slipping is to catch yourself at all the time, so Wong Bo's in your heart, chasing you all over the place, whacking you, and telling you, you're drag-slipping, Basha, you're drag-slipping, but you don't trust your life, Basha. When are you going to trust your life, Basha? Basha, when are you going to live? You say, maybe not ever. Maybe I'm just going to always be reaching for the drags, because I really don't trust my life, actually. Not really when it's coming at me. I'm always reaching for what to do. If you catch yourself at it, and don't even project when you might stop, but just keep catching yourself, and catching yourself, and catching yourself, you will become free.

[75:17]

by continually catching yourself, and also by the faith that you should work with the way you are. And the way you are is, as a human being, constantly trying to get something from life, get help from Buddha outside yourself. Wang Bo said, don't try to get Buddha outside yourself. Give up this distinction between yourself and Buddha. Drop it. And part of the way you drop it is to admit, that you are a non-Buddha who's always trying to get something for herself. But being willing to be an ordinary woman is what it's like to give up the distinction between ordinary woman and Buddha. Most ordinary men who are practicing Buddhism are holding tenaciously to the separation between themselves and Buddha. And they try to use Buddha to figure out how to help this person not cause too much trouble. Or even be a great Buddha.

[76:20]

Buddha gives that up. And this is an ordinary person. And in particular, not just an ordinary person, but an ordinary person who is completely catching herself at being an ordinary person. You say, well, that's not ordinary. Well, in your case, it is ordinary because that's who you are. because you happen to be catching yourself. So you have the benefit, you have the karma, or the life situation that you've exposed yourself to a teaching which is saying you're always running away from yourself. You're always errant. You're always errant. You're always wandering away from who you are. That's a human being. Rather than, some people think, I'm not errant. I'm not errant. To say I'm not errant is drag-slurping. To say I'm errant is to say I am drag-slurping. And you are drag-slurping quite often, probably.

[77:24]

To catch yourself at that, to catch yourself at that, to catch yourself at that is not doing something special. It's just admitting that you're ordinary human beings who's always wandering off, wandering off, trying to get somewhere to be herself. That's how to do it in daily life. And to do that in daily life, I think that's wonderful. That's what Wang Bo does. Except he does it more than we do. So much so that he never reaches for Buddha. He never reaches for Buddha. He never reaches for wonderful Dharma, and therefore Therefore, you know, his teaching is still helping us. Right? So, this is something you can actually practice because it's something you're actually already screwing up on. You know, you've got this bad habit. It's in your face all the time.

[78:26]

It should be easy to catch yourself at this many, many times a day. It's a bitter tea. But it's very good for you to drink this tea of catching yourself at doing this thing. And see how it feels in your body when you do it. Okay? So I think, you know, maybe we're ready for Case 54. Okay? And if you want a copy of it, there's copies of it up here in front. Case 54. And it's about great compassion. Okay? Okay? So you do this practice of catching yourself at being a human being, and that will be, you know, a wonderful preparation for you to practice great compassion. Yes? Well, it's past nine o'clock, so, you know, probably we should kind of stop, because some of us have to get up terribly, terribly early. Right?

[79:29]

Who do we pay? Give your money to Charlie. If a guy's name is Charlie, either this Charlie or that Charlie. I'd like to change my name officially now. Can you change your name? Wonderful. Okay, so this case is something that I hope you make this into part of your practice, this case. But we're going to go on to case 54 next week, okay? So please study case 54. Meat leg slippers. Yes? Yeah, if people are going to have dinner next week, they can maybe sign up in the kitchen for dinner. Yeah, okay. So if you're going to have dinner here next week, please sign up with Bob here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[80:22]

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