There is a monastic textbook, you might say. I believe it was published in 1103 in China. It is called Chanyuan Jingwei, or Chanyuan Qingwei. It has a section on venerating the triple treasure. It asks a question, do you venerate the three treasures of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha? And the great ancestor Dogen says that this statement clearly indicates that

[01:16]

reverent veneration of the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, the Buddha, the law of the universe and the community is the essence of correct transmission of Buddha ancestors. So the ancient teacher Dogen says that the question, do you venerate the three treasures or not, clearly indicates, clearly shows that veneration and reverence for Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is the essence of correct transmission of the Buddha ancestors. As I mentioned here before,

[02:22]

one of the people who comes here to Novo who lives at Gringotts, he went to Gringotts. Somebody asked him what his practice was and he said something like worshipping deities. And that person said, you're in the wrong school. This is delicious tea. Can I have some water please? And when he told me that I said, I don't agree. So here we have Dogen and I would agree with Dogen that worship, veneration, reverence for the triple treasure, the triple treasure is a deity or is a triple deity. It's a divine treasure trove. The Buddha, the Dharma and

[03:26]

the Sangha. And revering and worshipping it is the essence of transmission of the Buddha ancestors. And I didn't hear that at Zen Center or before I came to Zen Center I didn't hear about that. That kind of talk didn't attract me to Zen Center. But now I think that maybe the people who did attract me to Zen Center, although they didn't tell me that they were venerating the triple treasure, maybe they were. So it may be the case that people who

[04:31]

correctly transmit the way of the Buddha ancestors, that these are people who venerate the triple treasure. These are people who venerate Buddha, who venerate the teaching, who venerate the community, who worship the community. So that's quite a bit right there, isn't it, such a statement? And then the Ancestor Dogen also says, without going for refuge in the triple treasure, it is impossible to venerate the triple treasure. Another translation, which uses a word that

[05:52]

has some kind of western connotations, but another way to say it is, unless you convert to the triple treasure, you have no reverence. Unless you revere them, you have no conversion. And some people say, I don't want to convert to the triple treasure. Okay, fine. But the proposal is being made for you to consider that revering Buddhas, revering the teaching of the Buddhas, revering the community of practitioners, that that's the essence of the correct transmission of the Buddha way. And also, that without going for refuge there's

[06:52]

no reverence, and without no reverence there's no going for refuge. But again, you can use that word at least parenthetically, without conversion to the triple treasure, there's no reverence. This is a kind of real strong way of putting it, but anyway, that's the way of putting it. He said, impossible. Without going for refuge in the triple treasure, it's impossible to revere, therefore it's impossible to participate in the essence of the transmission correctly. Q. Could you define refuge and conversion? A refuge means to go back, to return someplace, and also to rely on that place, or to return

[08:05]

to something and rely on that something. Another translation would be to return and plunge into, and rely on. So that kind of goes with convert, you take your body and mind and you convert them into the triple treasure. You return your body and mind to the redemption center. My mother used to collect coupons on the back of Raleigh cigarettes, and she collected huge stacks of coupons from having smoked huge stacks of cigarettes, and then she'd take this big wad of coupons and go to the redemption center, and get stuff, get redeemed, get redemption. So that's when I started to practice Zen. But also convert, you convert yourself into the triple treasure. And part of me anyway

[09:28]

might think, okay, here I am, and now I'm just going to convert myself to the three treasures and then there's no more me, there's just the three treasures. Here I was, a guy walking on the earth, and then I got converted into the three treasures, and that was the last that was seen of me. He was around for a while, but then after that there was just three treasures, and we didn't see him anymore. However, the three treasures, we're still taking care of those, so in a way I guess we're taking care of him, because he converted himself into the three treasures. He returned and plunged into the three treasures, and that was the end of that. There continued to be this veneration of the three treasures. So, going for refuge, without going for refuge, without converting yourself to the triple

[10:32]

treasure, you're not revering them. So again, you might want to say, okay, I revere the Buddhas, I venerate the Buddhas, I honor the Buddhas, I worship the Buddhas, but there's still something left of me here. I'm holding back a little bit. I haven't actually thrown myself completely into the Buddha, with no hold out, with nothing left over. Well, the kind of veneration that we're talking about is, you venerate something so much that you just become it, and you're just walking around three treasures, nothing in addition to that. And three treasures, by the way, include the law of the universe, so you're nothing in addition to the law of the universe. As a matter of fact, you have always been the law

[11:40]

of the universe, but if we hold back in our veneration for the law or the truth of the universe, if we hold back, it's almost like, well, there's the law of the universe and me. But by venerating the law of the universe, there's just the law of the universe as me. But I'm not in addition to the law of the universe, of course. And that way of being with the Dharma, the Buddha Dharma, that way of being with it is reverence, is veneration, is worshipping. And this is kind of an all-or-nothing presentation, but if you're not completely converted to it, your veneration, your holding back, is not real veneration, because there

[12:41]

seems to be some lack of plunging into the triple treasure, some lack of complete conversion of the person into the triple treasure. Because, again, he's putting it very strongly, but couldn't say, well, what if I worship a little, then wouldn't I be going for refuge a little? Or what if I went for refuge, but I didn't revere the Buddhas, wouldn't that still count a little bit? Well, maybe, but it does seem kind of funny that you would take refuge in something without revering it, doesn't it? In the historical records of the Buddha, people would ask to go for refuge in the Buddha after they were just, I was going to say dumbstruck, but they could still talk sometimes, and they would be so

[13:43]

deeply moved and so deeply touched by the Buddha's kindness and wisdom, that they would just really want to plunge into the Buddha. They would want to join the Buddha's community. And that's what they would say, I want to go for refuge in you and your teaching and your community. That was the ancient Indian response to this Buddha. But that was because they revered him, that was because they venerated this wonderful teacher and the wonderful teaching and the wonderful community, if there was a community. The first people, there was no community, so they didn't really see a community, so all they saw was the Buddha and the Dharma, and they wanted to go for refuge in the Buddha and the Dharma, and then there was a community. And then the other people came, so there was the triple treasure, and they wanted to enter it because they loved it so much, so deeply. And so they loved it deeply and they wanted

[14:49]

to enter it deeply, and that was going for refuge, returning and relying on this triple treasure. And again, the person might feel some resistance or some hold out in this regard, but then he goes on to sort of address any personal, what do you call it, any personal resistance, and then he says, the merit of going for refuge in the triple treasure invariably appears in spiritual communion between, this person says, the trainee and Buddha. So, the actual function of this veneration, of this going for refuge, the actual merit

[15:55]

of it, the full function of it, occurs in what is translated here as spiritual communion between the person and the Buddhas. Those who experience this communion invariably take refuge, whether they find themselves existing as a celestial or human or a hell dweller or a hungry ghost or animal. So, if you want to go for refuge, the actual function of that is realized in a communion with Buddha, and if you commune with Buddha, you actually go for refuge. You don't have to even think, I want to go for refuge. When you're in communion with Buddha, in fact, the refuge function occurs, which might leave someone to say,

[17:02]

I want to go for refuge. After they've already gone for refuge, they might say, no, I want to go for refuge. Yes, so, the actual function of that is realized in what is translated here as spiritual communion between the person and the Buddha. I feel just this sadness, having had so many moments of embodying reverence, but I actually

[18:04]

was in the moment, I was holding on to myself more. You feel grief that in the past, sometimes, you didn't give yourself completely to the act of revering the Buddhas, holding back a little bit. So, I'm going to stop there. I'm going to stop there. Recently, we were reading a Mahayana scripture, and I was reading it, and I was thinking,

[19:19]

called Samadhi Nirmachana Sutra, where towards the end of the scripture, it was asking about how the Buddha can appear in some form in the world, so that people can look at the Buddha and listen to the Buddha, and revere the Buddha. And the answer was that the Buddha appears in some form, so that people can look at some form of the Buddha, and hear and revere some form of the Buddha. That appearance occurs by virtue of the Buddha's blessing, by the Buddha wanting to bless beings. That wanting to bless beings is one of the factors which makes the Buddha appear in a

[20:22]

form, so that people can revere the Buddha. And the other thing that makes it happen is beings' focused reverence on the Buddha. Those two things. It isn't just that the Buddhas are wishing to bless all beings, and bless all beings by taking a form, so that beings can see them and venerate them, because if beings can see the Buddhas and venerate them and listen to them, the Buddha providing that food, in a sense, for this response, is the blessing.

[21:22]

But first the Buddhas are willing to bless, but that isn't enough. Beings have to orient towards them, in order for them to manifest in a way that beings then can practice with them, and practice with them as going for refuge in them. The Lotus Sutra says, now what is the one great condition for the appearance of Buddhas in the world? And the answer, the one great condition, cause and condition, is the desire, the wish, to open beings to Buddha's wisdom. The desire to demonstrate Buddha's wisdom to beings, the desire to awaken beings to Buddha's wisdom, and the desire to help beings enter

[22:29]

into Buddha's wisdom. That desire, that's the Buddha's blessing. That's the one great cause or condition. But here we're saying, yeah, that's the one great cause or condition, you've got to have this blessing in order for the Buddha to appear, but one more thing is required. Beings have to focus on that. The first great cause or condition, the Buddha's wish is primary, and our response is secondary, but without our secondary response, they won't manifest. The crossing of those two manifests the Buddha in the world, and then we can practice veneration. Then we can practice throwing ourselves into the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. And then also we have this case in the Book of Serenity, Case 52, where two monks are talking,

[23:32]

and one says, the true body of Buddha is vast like space, but it can respond to living beings, like the moon in the water, like the moon reflected in water. What is the principle of this response and transformation? Or this vast spacious body can be transformed in response to beings. What is the principle of this transformation? And the second monk says, it's like a donkey looking in the well. And the first monk says,

[24:34]

you've got 80%, and the second monk says, what about you? And he says, it's like the well looking at the donkey. The donkey looking at the well, you could say, well, that's like people looking for or focusing on Buddha. The well looking at the donkey is like the Buddha wishing to benefit all beings. It's both directions. So, we don't do this refuge-taking by ourselves, we do it with the Buddhas, and with the Dharma, and with the Sangha. And also the wish of the Buddhas,

[25:41]

although it's considered to be the one great causal condition, it wouldn't be there if there weren't sentient beings, because it's a desire to open sentient beings to the Buddha's wisdom. So, one gets to be called the one great causal condition, but really you have to have both together. So, I thought I'd mention that this morning. Elena? I think you've been answering my question, but still, what is Buddha? Oh, what is Buddha? Well, Buddha has three bodies. One body is like its vast life space. It doesn't come, it's something that doesn't come or go,

[26:43]

doesn't arise or cease. It is a vast emptiness, and its essence is compassion. But also, Buddha is something that can appear in response to beings in ways that they can orient towards and venerate. And if they can venerate the ways that Buddhas appear, if they can go for refuge in the way Buddhas appear, and they can go for refuge and venerate the teachings of the Buddhas, and the companions of the Buddha, if they can venerate and worship all that, then that going for refuge, understanding also that they're doing this together with the Buddhas, that way of being with this Buddha, this formed Buddha, opens up to the realization of the Buddha that's the whole universe,

[27:46]

and it's ungraspable. Compassion. The whole universe. The compassion of the whole universe. Someone told me when I said, well, I have compassion for animals, for example, or I said something about my feeling, and he said, but that really is just the creation impulse of the whole universe. It's a motherly kind of thing that brings on creation. And that's not real compassion. He said...

[28:48]

That's not compassion? That's not really compassion. It's just like a law that creates. It's the law of creation. Yeah, because it's sort of a motherly... Yeah. In the first case of the Book of Serenity, it actually literally says, first it says, the unique breeze of reality. Can you see it? And Cleary's translation is, creation continuously works her loom and shuttle. Creation continuously works her loom and shuttle, incorporating the patterns of spring into the ancient brocade. But literally it says, the mother principle continuously works her loom and shuttle, incorporating the patterns of spring into the ancient brocade.

[29:49]

So that's the process of creation. Okay? There it is. And there's a unique breeze of reality blowing through it. Namely, this whole process of creation, where you care for animals, but also where you hate animals, and they hate you. The whole universe of love and hate. Okay? There's a unique breeze of reality running through it. And the unique breeze of reality is that all these things are ungraspable. That you can't get one particle separate from another. And also, that the essence of this quality of ungraspability is compassion. So compassion is not just my feeling of caring for someone,

[30:57]

although that can be compassion too. It's the reality of how this whole creation process works. What? Did you say there are three definitions? Three bodies? Well, there are three bodies of Buddha, and there are three kinds of Buddha. Did you say that to us just now? No, I didn't. The three bodies, the three kinds of Buddha. One is unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment. That's called the perfect enlightenment. That's called the single-bodied Buddha jewel. Next one is the manifestation of Buddha. As you know, like a great teacher who lives some place and teaches people and sits on lotuses and stuff

[31:58]

and gives Dharma teachings. And like, you know, maybe, if it's in a human world, somebody that's born of a human woman and nurses on a human woman and goes to preschool and then, you know, learns how to shoot bow and arrow and ride horses and then leaves home and goes to practice at a monastery or in the mountains and then understands the truth and comes and teaches and then dies. That's kind of a manifestation. That's the second kind of Buddha. That's the kind that people can kind of like look at and go, great, you know, wonderful. Can I take refuge in you? And there's a third kind, which is called the maintained or maintaining Buddha. And that's actually when we are transformed in practice. That's a Buddha too. But that's not so easy for people to see. You can see it somewhat. And when you see someone evolving towards enlightenment,

[32:59]

the way they're being transformed is a third virtue or the third quality or the third merit of Buddha. Us being transformed and edified is a kind of Buddha treasure. The actual function it has on beings in transforming them. So there's the enlightenment and then there's the manifestation of it as something that people can relate to. And then there's the transformation that comes through relating to this form. Until we're finally transformed so much that we realize the Dharmakaya. We realize the complete perfect enlightenment. And then we dive into that completely. Nothing left over. And then we join the process which can manifest as, you know, human Buddhas for humans and rat Buddhas for rats and tree Buddhas for trees. But tree Buddhas can also work for humans.

[34:01]

And rat Buddhas can work for humans too, sometimes. Occasionally a rat comes up to somebody and goes, oh, sorry. Sometimes people realize that the Buddha has manifested as a rat for them. But Buddhas can also manifest as, you know, grass to help trees or whatever. The story is like that, right? So those are the three kinds of Buddha treasure which we were talking about the other night kind of correspond to three bodies of Buddha but the order is different. So the complete perfect enlightenment is like the Dharmakaya. The transformation, the manifested quality of Buddha is like the transformation body of Buddha and the transformation of beings, the edification of beings is like the bliss body of Buddha.

[35:03]

The happiness of seeing how the enlightenment manifests as something you can relate to and then relating to it and realizing the transformation that comes from relating to this thing which is a manifestation of another aspect of itself. To relate to the manifest form as a realization of the unmanifest form and in that process of attention and practice with that be transformed and that's actually a body of the Buddha. That's a kind of Buddha. The manifesting is like nirmanakaya. The transformation of us in practice is a Sambhogakaya, the bliss body. And we are transformed as we originally we might be orienting towards the manifestation like the Buddha or the Buddha's disciple,

[36:05]

some great teacher. We venerate some great teacher or the Buddha. We're reverent to that. We listen to the Dharma. We practice the teachings. We listen to the Dharma. We practice the teachings. We're grateful for the teachings. We love the teachings. We love the teacher. We do that. And we start to change. And we change and we change and finally we realize all this form actually is a manifestation of a transformation of something that doesn't come and go, that doesn't manifest. And that isn't manifested but that can manifest so that we can relate to it because we can't relate to the unmanifest form originally. But as we venerate the manifestation we start to be able to see the unmanifested. We start to see the Dharma body in everything. Not just the Dharma body in the form of a nice teacher or good teachings. We see the Dharma body in bad teachings. Yes?

[37:06]

I got the impression that there had to be the conversion to taking refuge in Buddha. The transformation before there was true veneration. I thought that's what I heard you say. You're talking now about venerating the manifested as a way toward transformation it sounds like. Yes, right. Well, first of all you see something that something like somebody that you think is great and then if you really venerate that person you actually are you fall into taking refuge. Or if you venerate them enough to say I would like to take refuge like in some of the sutras people see the Buddha and they hear the teaching and they go I want to be a disciple of you. I want to go for refuge in you. But they actually already have taken refuge in their complete appreciation and listening to the Buddha and realizing the Dharma they already have taken refuge and they can do a ceremony afterwards.

[38:10]

So did I... Yes, well I heard you say I think it was Dogen who said that there was no true veneration until there was the conversion. Right. And so starting with veneration in sort of a karmic grasp of what taking refuge means seems limited. It seems like the veneration is still limited karmically before the conversion. Yes, it might take a little while. You might feel a little spark of veneration. But in some sense Dogen is saying before the veneration is complete until you're converted until you've actually like thrown yourself into what you're venerating your veneration isn't complete. And similarly if you're throwing yourself completely into this whatever this is that's really what we mean by veneration. So that's I don't know it's almost like an

[39:14]

absolute in the sense absolute means complete. Perfect means complete. So it's almost like an absolute veneration an absolute refuge that it's like almost like all or nothing as he's saying. But of course it can be a little veneration and then where you know you feel like there's still some holding back. Like I venerate Buddha a little. But maybe if you maybe if you look very carefully at that little veneration you'd find well actually it was total veneration it's just that it was followed by another moment where I didn't venerate. But the implication anyway is towards total veneration total refuge and also realize that that that thing happens not by yourself. It isn't that the Buddha is sitting over there and you're venerating and going for refuge all by yourself. The actual the actual way that it becomes total

[40:14]

is because Buddha is blessing you and you're looking at the Buddha. The Buddha is supporting you to be wholehearted. The Buddha is supporting you to be complete in this veneration. They're they're manifesting in such a way as to promote your total veneration or your complete conversion. Yes? May all Buddhas be compassionate to us and free us from karmic effects. I'm just wondering about that process. May all Buddhas be compassionate to us and free us from karmic effects. Yeah. May all Buddhas be compassionate to us and free us from karmic effects by giving us something to you know relate to. And it isn't that they're going to just come in and free us from karmic effects.

[41:15]

They free us from karmic effects by manifesting in a way that we can venerate. If we venerate Buddhas which we can't do without them offering themselves to be venerated. So we venerate Buddhas together with Buddhas and practicing with Buddhas in that venerating way we are free from karmic effects. That's how we become free of karmic effects. Which someone would say this sounds like Christianity. But you know if it does then that may be because Christianity has certain universal aspects. In that universal aspect if you would completely love something that has offered itself to you for you to completely love so that you could become free of karmic effects that would be the same principle that we have in the Buddhadharma. So if Christianity is saying that

[42:16]

we say, yeah, humans seem to have to go through that mechanism of like total towards something that offers itself to say, okay, you can be total with me. But you have to be total with me in order to in order to be converted to me. In order to be converted to one who is wanting to give their life for people to be venerated to become free of karmic effects. Round and round. Let's see, I saw Maria's hand. Anybody else? And Tara? No, Tara. Maria? And Linda? Yes? Maria, Tara and Linda. Yes? Okay. Complete refuge. And I

[43:21]

I believe that people want to take refuge no matter what lineage or what form they take in complete refuge. The person and the complete perfect enlightenment has become one. There is no need for that. But we make also some differentiation between different well, it seems like there is some differentiation there. Could you speak up? So, we are meeting with the Buddhas and you are saying what? Did you want me to repeat something? No, you can go on. We got the Buddhas. We make a differentiation between a lay, there is a lay ordination and then there is a priest ordination. And the lay person receives their officer. And the priest

[44:23]

person, in our model receives their former Kesa. And just recently I felt I have a feeling, I have this feeling that a Kesa wants to be born. But not necessarily changing to a priest lifestyle. Changing to taking a priest and making a different ceremony as a priest. But see in the kind of the small the model is pre-Okesa and priest go together, lay person and Okesa don't go together. And I feel kind of uncomfortable. That's one model, but there is another model which also is taught by this person named Ehe Dogen.

[45:25]

And in that model lay people can receive the Okesa too. Yes. So, you do know that. I knew that. And I know that in some places it's practiced. Anyway, Dogen is pretty clear. Lay people can receive the Okesa. The Raksha isn't Okesa, it's just small. But lay people can receive a large full-size robe too. So, and yeah. And there are lay people at Zen Center who do wear those robes. But we're still, we haven't converted to all the lay people wearing the full robe. But if you do want to wear the full-size robe and be a lay person, it can be arranged. And it's in accord with the tradition. It's not a new thing. But most people at Zen Center do not make the full-size robe.

[46:26]

But we could start doing that. But I think it would be a big institutional adjustment. And one of the ways that the institution has felt good about it is for very senior lay person to wear the robe. So, just take care of your health and soon you'll be a very senior person. And then people will say, well, we haven't changed Zen Center yet to accommodate her. But since she's been practicing so long, fine, she can wear the big robe. Because it's not against tradition. It's just Zen Center style right now. But we could have, you know, Zen Center might change and have all lay people make the full robe. But then some lay people would say, that's a little bit too big for me. I don't want to sew that robe. Can you imagine such a thing? Yeah, well, I can. Some lay people say, I can't sew that robe. I can't blah, blah, blah, you know. I'm sure priest people say the same thing.

[47:27]

Actually, I don't hear it from them. I know people in Europe. Maybe so, but I haven't heard any priest saying the robe is too much work for me. But, you know, we could say, we could say, well, you can make the small one or large one, whichever you want. By the time they are in the Zagreb, they wish that it was small. That's what you say. Some, by the time they are in the Zagreb, are just really sad because they want to sew forever. And some lay people, too, when they finish their raksha, they say, I wish I could sew several more right now. There's all kinds of different people, but I'm just saying that it would be a big thing for Zen Center to switch and have two different styles, or to make everybody make the big robe, which actually I would be very happy to do that. Raise the bar for lay people to sew the big robe. Matter of fact, we could make lay people sew 25 panel robe instead of 5. And, you know,

[48:29]

that would be quite a change at Zen Center. And the priest could wear something that required no sewing. But this would be a big change. I just want to say that I have no problem with the lay person wearing it. It's just that a lot of things I have no problem with are major institutional, would be major institutional changes. And it's similar to I have no problem moving mountains and stuff like that. I love to do it. Okay? But, if we don't get it changed soon, and you keep practicing, I'm sure people will be fine about you having a full-size okhasa when you're 95. No problem. You will be a highly venerated practitioner by that time. And you still might want that okhasa. No problem. But no problem now either, except institutionally and socially. And that contributes to the whole body.

[49:46]

And that's how we grow the whole organization. And I see that there is kind of a myth because we have this particular model and we don't speak so much about that it's just a model. I saw in myself this kind of an assumption that I don't know how I made, but I found out instead that the lay person is somehow not somewhat less or they haven't taken full refuge. And the priest refuge is somehow bigger and more complete and more important. And that the lay person that receives the Buddha robe has to earn it. Has to earn it and has to earn it. Earn what? The okhasa. Well, yeah, but the priest has to earn the okhasa too. Everybody has to earn it, but you have to sow it. You earn it.

[50:46]

Priests have to do two tasara practice periods. Lay people don't have to do two tasara practice periods in order to receive the Raksu. So we give the Raksus to people who have done no tasara practice periods. Which is fine. It's lovely, but priests have to do two tasara practice periods before they can be considered as a candidate to be a priest. And before that they have to do practice periods at city center and so on. And they have to do ten sesshins and so on. They have to be around five years. All that's part of what you have to do. The requirements are higher, more elaborate. And a lot of lay people who have received the Raksu and received the precepts, they want to make that additional effort. And the priest way is one way to do it. But there are other ways for a lay person to make additional effort without becoming a priest. Like practice a long time. That would earn it. If you practice a long time you would earn, that would be equivalent

[51:52]

to, not equivalent to, but comparable to what some people do that want to become priests. So a lot of people are happy lay practitioners and they are looking for some way to make more effort and so they see this priest venue and they say, oh good, I can make more effort there. And then they do and they become priests. But some other people who are practicing for a long time, like you, they say, well, I want to make more effort but I don't want to be a priest. Well, you don't have to be. So just keep practicing and if you want to do that particular thing, that's fine. But, you know, we have to work it out. I understand what you're saying. There are two different things when I say earn. Of course, to each position there is an appropriate requirement and the priest position in our society is not so clear. Excuse me, but I think

[52:53]

what I sense is you said earn, but maybe what you meant was some feeling that well, not deserve even, but just that the priests are better than the lay people. I feel that that's in the background of what you're saying. Yeah, and I think that's not a healthy situation. In the Mahayana, we don't think that some people are better than other people. So, if that's going on, that's something we have to, you know, need some additional assistance. We need to work on that to not fall into the idea that this practitioner is better than that practitioner. That this layman is better than this laywoman. That this priest is better than this layperson. That this layperson is better than this priest. People maybe think that way, but we have to be careful not to fall into that. And if there's anything that seems to be contributing to that, I think it would be nice to point it out. And so I think you're pointing this out that this may be contributing to it.

[53:54]

So let's look at it. Thank you. Tara? Yes, so I'll preface this by saying I'm much newer, I think, to this practice than other people here. And part of what drew me to it is this idea of questioning and finding your own truth. Even the idea of, like, kill the Buddha. Yes. And at the same time, this idea, like you brought up, the Christianity aspect, it almost feels like this idea of we melt away the root of transgressions by the power of our confession and repentance. I mean, it sounds almost like what a priest would say. It feels like there's something a little bit disturbing, I guess you could say, about that. And also the idea of renouncing worldly affairs. It's like, I live in the world. Why would I want to renounce it? Well, what we mean by worldly... first of all, what we mean by worldly affairs maybe is easier to address.

[54:55]

Worldly affairs means... means... worldly affairs means something you do half-heartedly. That's what worldly affairs means. Wow, that sounds quite different. Okay. So if you go shopping half-heartedly, it's a worldly affair. Okay? If you sit in meditation in a Zen hall with other Zen practitioners, and you sit there, and you're doing that half-heartedly, that's a worldly affair. I got that. But then I think of, like, fundamentalism. And I think, like, wow, those terrorists, they were really going for it when they brought down the World Trade Center. So in a sense, they were renouncing worldly affairs. I guess I'm not seeing a total distinction. Yeah, well... I mean, they are truly... they thought they were going... Yeah, so I guess I wasn't there with them. I wasn't examining their whole-heartedness.

[55:57]

I don't know if they were whole-hearted. Somebody else maybe thinks they are. I don't know if they are. I don't think you can be whole-hearted and be sectarian. I don't think you can be whole-hearted and be a Buddhist and feel separate from non-Buddhists. So a Buddhist who feels separate from non-Buddhists, I would say, is involved in worldly affairs. And a Muslim who is separate from Jews, I would say, is involved in worldly affairs. So, when we hear the true Dharma, when we hear the truth, we will renounce half-heartedness. We will renounce feeling separate from people who are different from us. I shouldn't say renounce the feeling of being different, but renounce believing that we are really separate from people. That's a worldly affair. So it's possible to go shopping

[56:59]

at a really nice store and buy some groceries whole-heartedly. With understanding you are doing this together with all beings, with the support of all Buddhas, venerating all Buddhas, and you are not caught at all by any separation from beings. And everybody can come by you and say, can we have your vegetables? And you can say, yes or no. As a matter of fact, you might say that, yes or no. That would be like a Zen story, right? Tara, give me your vegetables. And you say, yes or no. You know? And that goes in the Zen books. But even in that example, you could be renouncing worldly affairs and doing it fully, but I guess on some level, maybe this goes along with what you are saying, if you recognize your connection to all beings, then you might think about where is this coming from. Exactly. When you are not unrecognized, but when you realize your connection with all beings, that is the same as hearing that you are Dharma.

[58:02]

Then you renounce worldly affairs. Then you go into the marketplace to bestow bliss upon beings. That is what you go for. It is not a worldly affair, even though you are in the marketplace with all the other people, some of whom are caught by worldly affairs, some of whom aren't. But the thing is, we got to hear the truth. Before that, we are a little bit on shaky ground in terms of being able to renounce worldly affairs. We may be trying, but it is hard work. I am trying to give up my belief that we are separate, but I have to work at it. When I try to hear the true Dharma, it is much easier to let go of that. So anyway, your question is well received by me. I appreciate your question. The next part about the confession and repentance, it is quite disturbing to some people

[59:03]

because they thought that they were not going to hear a similar thing in a Zen center that they hear in a Catholic church. But it does sound similar to what some priests would say. You are right. The principle here is that by confessing your worldly affairs, by confessing that you are doing things with a sense of separation from other beings, if you confess that and you feel kind of bad about it actually, like, I confess I am actually putting myself ahead of that person and I do not feel good about it, that is confession and repentance. And then to do that with the Buddhas, to do it with those who have gotten over that, it does melt it away. It does make us wholehearted. And then we move towards that and we start to hear the true Dharma. This is a principle that applies to beings all over the universe and some of them are Catholic. But when they practice that way, those Catholics get over being Catholics separate from Jews. Some Catholics

[60:04]

are great beings, are Bodhisattvas. And some Buddhists are also. But the Buddhists who are Bodhisattvas are not caught by the distinction, the worldly distinction between Buddhists and non-Buddhists. Bodhisattvas love non-Buddhists. Bodhisattvas love Sunnis and Shias and Jews and Catholics and atheists and rats. They love all beings. They do. That is the proposal. Of course this is totally amazing to attain such a state, but that is what this is about, is becoming such a being by venerating those who have attained it and feeling what that is like and feeling that wholeheartedness start to come upon our body and mind and feel like

[61:05]

this is right for me, this makes sense and work on that until you realize it. You are welcome. Thank you for your question. We appreciate you daring to ask a question even though you haven't been around as long as some of these people. You may continue to do so. Wasn't that nice that she asked that question? Wasn't it excellent? The other ones were too, by the way. We had many excellent questions this morning. Elena had her question. Linda. Linda. You haven't had your question, so here you go. Can you come up to the standards of the previous generation? I'm trying to see if I can know how to ask my question. You were talking about the Nirvanakaya, the one who manifests in this world.

[62:05]

It's not the one who manifests, it's the manifestation of the one. Okay, that was my question. The Nirvanakaya. A moment. Right in this moment that might be manifest by you. Is it like that? Yes, it's like that. You read a story or something and you want to see more of what you hear about. And before you heard the story, you didn't know what you were searching for. And you hear the story and say, oh yeah, that's what I've been looking for. Somehow, what you've been looking for, which was all around you, manifests as this character in a story. And then you say, oh, it'd be nice to meet some person who's like that. So you see a person like that. And then you find out the person's not like that. But then you remember, well, I'm just using this person to get in touch with what I really want to get in touch with.

[63:07]

So it doesn't matter that they're not the way I wanted them to be. Yes. You see at this moment from some perception this other manifestation. Right. So sometimes, I guess it's a Tibetan saying, you should study with a teacher who's two or three valleys away so you don't get to see how imperfect your teacher is. So you can just go and see your teacher and venerate the teacher as a manifestation of the pure body of Buddha. And really just totally venerate. But then go away because if you see the way they do certain things, you wouldn't be able to venerate anymore and it would not be good for you not to be able to venerate. The veneration is the way you're going to see the truth. We don't see the truth by not venerating things. By not appreciating. That isn't the recommended course.

[64:09]

Think less of everyone and you'll see the ultimate truth. I remember Gregory Bateson told a story about interviewing a Japanese family, particularly a Japanese girl and she was I don't know, a topic came up, you know, that it's very important for her and her family to venerate, to respect her father. somehow I don't know, maybe Gregory said, well what if your father is like a real cruel drunk? You know, then why would you venerate him? It's not that he deserves it. It's just that we need to do it. It's for us. The veneration is... The Buddha doesn't need your veneration. The Buddha needs you to venerate. Because the Buddha needs you to be happy. And in order to be happy you have to venerate Buddha. The Buddha doesn't need your veneration. The Buddha doesn't need your gifts. But the Buddha needs you to have gifts

[65:12]

to give. The Buddha doesn't need your practice. But the Buddha needs you to practice. Because the Buddha needs you to be happy. That's what the Buddha needs. So, So even somebody who doesn't need your veneration, but who does need your help, if you can venerate them, you're the lucky one. Because again, it's venerating Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. And the Dharma applies to everyone. Everyone is in accord with the Dharma. So venerating the Dharma of every person. This person may be very unskillful right now, but the Dharma is right there. And saying, okay, this person is unskillful, this person is being mean to me, this person is being mean to somebody else. Yes, right, I agree. I agree, says the Bodhisattva. I agree this person is being cruel. But the Dharma is coming to you right now anyway.

[66:15]

Dharma comes from cruel people and kind people. Everything is a Dharma door. So you need to respect everything, every person, as a Dharma door, as part of veneration of Buddha and Dharma and Sangha. The Dharma is free of dust. It's free of being separate from anything. So we do need to venerate, according to this, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, in order to plunge into Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. And fortunately or unfortunately, we're doing it together with the Buddhas. They're beaming at us to support us, to plunge into this wonderful situation of truth and compassion and celebration, totally.

[67:23]

Well, anybody else wish to offer anything before our lunch time? It's not the bliss body of Buddha that transforms it, it's, no, the transformation body, is the transformation of the body of truth. And the bliss body comes, it's called bliss body, but it's also called reward body. The bliss body is the transformation of the practitioner, is the edification of the practitioner. If you start venerating everything, if you start venerating everybody, there's a Bodhisattva in the Lotus Sutra called, the English translation is, never disparaging, that was the Bodhisattva's name. He'd go around and he'd say to everybody, I don't disparage you, I don't disparage you,

[68:33]

I don't disparage you. And people would say, you don't disparage me? What are you talking about? They'd punch him for talking, what are you talking about disparaging me? They thought he was a left-handed comment, left-handed insult, backhanded, I don't know what it was, but anyway, he got beat up for going around telling people, I don't disparage you, you will become Buddha, I know. So this is a Bodhisattva that venerated everybody and got beat up for it. Not always. So if you venerate the transformation and you venerate the Dharma, if you venerate the triple treasure, the reward for that is the bliss body. And the bliss body would be that you start to realize, you've been treating everybody with respect and veneration, but then you start to see, oh my God, they're inseparable from the Dharma body. And they're inseparable from transformations of the Dharma body.

[69:37]

And then I'm changed, and this is the great happiness, which then I join with all the other beings who are practicing and change and being edified. So that's the blissful edification of the practitioner who is faithful to the teaching to venerate the Buddhas. And realize some Buddhas you can see, some you can't, and also the Dharma is everywhere. And also, we don't know who the Bodhisattvas are, so just in case, treat everybody as though they might be a Bodhisattva. That simple conclusion is pointed out in sutras, that only Buddhas can see who the Bodhisattvas in the room are. So there might be one or more Bodhisattvas in this room right now, and the Buddhas could tell us, but we don't happen to have a Buddha in the room to tell us which one of us is

[70:39]

the Bodhisattvas. So just in case, treat everybody as though, oops, yep, this might be the one, yeah, Bodhisattvas might look like this, that's what I heard from the Mahayana sutras. So can I bow in front of a room where everybody might be a Bodhisattva, please excuse me for leading this bow. May our intention equally extend to every being and place. With the true merit of Buddha's wish, beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible.

[71:42]

I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it.

[72:05]

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