I pay homage to all the great teachers and we seek them to embrace and sustain us here so that the discourse may be beneficial and authentic. I pray that the monks may be able to listen with their whole body and mind. In addition, coming down to here, there is the Bodhisattva precept of not praising self

[01:14]

while slandering others, not praising self while valuing others. What do we have now? We have words. Words are karmic consciousness. And words can liberate karmic consciousness.

[02:22]

Now we have another verbal preceptual teaching for Bodhisattvas about words. The key words here are self, other, praise, slander, and not. More words about words. Words inside our head and words going out of our mouth. So the starting point seems to be words. I can't speak for words.

[03:43]

They seem to be having a hard time, barely able to stand up to the challenge. Maybe it's just me that has a hard time going on with these words. At the same time, how can a drifting wreckage come to an end? So I continue talking about words with the hope that these words will liberate karmic consciousness. Here there are the words self and other. I renounce saying here there are words about self and other as though there were something

[04:52]

out there besides the words. Words exist conventionally. Words conventionally exist. Through words self and other are imbued with identity. By word-borne identities self and other exist conventionally and are words. If we can study the self and clearly see that it is nothing more than a word, we will realize the liberating meaning of this Bodhisattva precept. Before we begin to discuss it. The ultimate point seems to be that words are nothing more than words.

[06:00]

That the conventionally existing is never any more than that. Studying the self, even from the perspective of worldly convention, smoothly leads to the realization of the incoherence of self-praise. It is quite natural, although sad, for humans to hold the deluded conventional view of that self and other are separated by something or in some way that is more substantial than

[07:09]

mere convention and verbal convention of that. Although such a view is common and natural because of karmic consciousness, it is not common sense. It is not common sense that there is something more to us than just words. It is common sense that there is nothing more to us than just words. It is common sense that we dependently co-arise with all things.

[08:10]

That's common sense. Anybody's mother could tell them that the milk comes in the truck and the driver drives the truck and from the country and there's cows out there and you eat the grass and the rain falls on the ground and the grass grows up. All this is what it takes to make milk. And you came because your daddy and me and daddy and me came because of grandpa and grandma and grandpa and grandma came because of the milk and the grass and the cows. This is all common sense. In other words, sweetheart, you don't have any independent self-existence. This is common sense. However, this is not a conventional view. The conventional view is not common sense. It is conventional to have non-common sense. In other words, to have common nonsense. That is conventional.

[09:11]

That is conventional. That is well-established, built-in, sponsored by karmic consciousness, which has no end. Common sense has an end and a beginning. It happens once in a while and it's a good thing when it does. It is common sense that self and other dependently co-arise and therefore the separation between them is insubstantial and that's why we should be nice to each other and don't throw sand in each other's faces and don't take what is not given and don't hurt anybody and clean up after yourself and so on.

[10:13]

Because you're not all by yourself and this world is not just for you, although we love you very much and you're the most precious thing, still. You only conventionally exist, darling. Even while holding such a view, it is still possible to reason with oneself, even while holding a non-common sensical view. Even while holding the conventional view that we are substantially separated, it is possible to reason with oneself carefully and with others and therefore to come to the conclusion of sticking to this commonly held erroneous view is not reasonable and is the source of endless misery for oneself and for all others. This reasonable analysis I just gave you a little sample of.

[11:24]

I will continue to make this analysis with myself and with others from now on. But today I'm going to move on and mention some other things. Beyond rational analysis, clear artistic and scientific observation of the process and consequences of rigid self-concern and belief in substantial separation between self and other will clearly reveal how unwholesome this whole process is, how unfortunate, how sad. Many, many great works of art depict the tragedy of belief and separation between self and other. History tells so many stories of the horrors of believing in the conventional view that

[12:40]

we're separated from other humans, from the environment, from other nations. Sociology, psychology, anthropology also have studied how unfortunate it is when people see things that way. Also, some of these sciences have also noticed how beautiful it is when people do not believe in this substantial separation between us. Thirty years ago when I was a grad student, I wrote a paper about separation anxiety. How fundamentally disturbing it is to be separated from something other and really

[13:41]

believe that. For humans and for animals too. I didn't study plants at that time. As we say every so often in Zen monasteries, like a fish in a puddle, what pleasure is there here? How sad to live in a little puddle of this self-centered existence. Still, re-convention requires that we live in the puddle, but if we remember that the puddle is just a puddle and has no more reality than that. The ocean crashes in.

[14:45]

Furthermore, it is in the conventional world, although standard to view ourselves as independent, it is also allowed to notice that this wonderful self is impermanent. Meditating on the impermanence of this independent self also can lead to relief from the belief. With such meditations and such reasonings fresh at hand, one is not unable to praise oneself while putting others down, but it is quite embarrassing. One sees how incoherent and ridiculous one is being.

[15:49]

Sometimes one will even stop simply by fully exerting conventional study of this self-other separation. Clearly observing the conventional world, in the Buddha way, we study the word self.

[17:29]

As the great ancestor says, to study the Buddha way is to study the self. To study the Buddha way is to study one's self. In the Buddha way, one is entirely devoted to the welfare of others. To study the Buddha way is to study, is to be entirely devoted to others.

[18:38]

To be entirely devoted to others is to forget the self. When only concerned with the welfare of others, one's self is unknown. When one's self is unknown, one is confirmed by all. One is realized by the arrival of all things. Being realized by the arrival of all things, body, mind, self and other drop off. With dropped off, body, mind, self and other, one is now ready for revival.

[20:00]

The forgotten self is ready for resurrection. The forgotten self can be resurrected in whatever way is helpful to beings. And it will be resurrected in precisely that way. No other. The forgotten self has no agenda and is totally at the disposal of all others. The life of resurrection begins when one who has forgotten one's self joins hands with

[21:03]

all beings, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Zen founders and walks together straight ahead on the Buddha way. This is the way to understand and realize the precept of not praising self while disparaging, slandering and devaluing others. To be entirely devoted to others is to gently and uprightly enter into the conversation

[22:03]

with all beings about the dependent co-arising of self and other, of me and you, of me and it. This conversation is the guts of the process of liberation. It can be very difficult and it can sometimes be just so much fun.

[23:15]

But rarely easy. It requires total devotion. I heard a story. They say that in the United States in the 1820s they had some meetings. Maybe they were in Kentucky, maybe in Tennessee, maybe Texas.

[24:28]

Anyway, they called these meetings revival meetings. And one of these meetings there were about, I forgot how many, 3,000, 20,000, something like that, people. And they get those people, they get those people to sit down in chairs. They didn't know how to sit cross-legged on the ground yet. It was a little, what do you call it, a hiatus in the transmission. So they sat in chairs, in rows. And then they had a team of preachers. These guys would line up and they'd go one after another. And they'd go at these people. They'd have conversations.

[25:31]

And they'd go hard on them, hard on them. They'd talk hard, intensely, minute after minute, hour after hour. And when one got tired another one would come in and go at them again. And they'd go and they'd go until finally these people gave up. And they would give up and they would die. And they would go in rows at once, whole rows of them. Flat out. Back out of their chairs, on the ground, out. And they would carry these people away from the mass scene to a rest area, which is called the revival area. And they would be revived and they would be refreshed and they would come back and they would tell people how nice it is to forget the self. And how the other looks after that. And then another row would go. So I can't remember the figures exactly, but I think maybe the figure was 20,000 people went to that revival meeting and 3,000 died and were revived.

[26:42]

And they say that the effects of that meeting was felt in the 1890s. People could still feel it. It's not just about death. It's not just about forgetting. It's about, after forgetting, being realized and confirmed by all things. Being confirmed by the arrival of everything. It's about that too. It's about that really. It's just that you've got to die to go to heaven. And the way you die is through a conversation. It's not suicide. It's through a conversation. Between self and other.

[27:44]

There's no karmic consciousness walking around just with the self. Karmic consciousness needs other. And it's got it. Self and other. Self and other. Don't praise self and forget the other. They are codependent. You can't have self without the other. Self and other. Self and other. Don't praise self and forget the other. They are codependent. You can't have self without the other. I'll keep doing this till you are dead. Me and my body.

[29:17]

Conversation between self and body. Conversation between self and the word. Quotes, P-A-I-N, unquote. Conversation. Hello, pain. What got you? Hey man, I'm pain. Hey man, pain, I said hi. Talk back. You don't talk to me? Gonna get it. You gonna listen to me? Want more? Not listening? Okay, here's more. Now listen. I wanna talk. Somebody wants to talk to you. Wake up, boy. Hey woman. What you doing? Don't you notice me? I'm talking to you. I'm called Mr. Pain. Let's have a chat. I don't want to. I had a nice dream over here. About some place where you weren't.

[30:19]

Don't distract me from my dream. Come on back, talk to me. Let's have a talk. Let's have a conversation. In that conversation, you will realize... Self and pain. Self and pain. Don't press self and forget the pain. They are codependent. You can't have self without the pain. Self and pain. No way. How about your obsessions? Have a conversation. Don't say... Obsessions, obsessions. I want obsessions. Let's go get some obsessions. No, just sit there.

[31:28]

They will come to you. They are there. They will say hi. Talk back. Answer them. First of all, you listen. Who are you? What are you? Doesn't... Isn't Mr. Pain talking to you? Knocking, knocking. Hello? The self dependently co-arises with pain when pain is happening. The self dependently co-arises with obsession. Many, many obsessions. The obsessions dependently co-arise with the self and with the pain. You don't have one without the other. You do have one, so you do have the other.

[32:34]

Check it out. Enter in the conversation. Be upright in the middle of this conversation. Of this study of dependent co-arising. Of self, other, pain, anxiety, obsession, birth and death. When you do it all the way, of course you realize that it is all dependently co-arising and therefore insubstantial. Completely empty. And you are free. You forget the self. All these things, the pain, the obsessions, all the others, confirm you. Confirm your life. Confirm your life. They are the only confirmation of your life.

[33:35]

They are the complete confirmation of your life. Once the self is forgotten through thorough, dramatic conversation. By yourself, sitting in meditation. This is the intra-psychic conversation which can lead to liberation. You don't have to wait until complete liberation before you take this conversation into the interpersonal realm. But if you want to wait until then, it's okay. But at that point, certainly, there are two points where you really should go and make it interpersonal.

[34:38]

If you are going to give up the conversation. If you are saying to yourself something that makes you want to say, I'm calling this conversation off. I'm not going to talk to my pain anymore. I'm going to find some way to turn it off. I'm going to get rid of the other, in this case. If you're getting discouraged and you're disparaging yourself, in other words, if you're getting lazy, then you should go get some interpersonal antidote. On the other hand, other extreme, is when you're completely relieved of self-cleaning, when you're no longer believing in yourself, a separate thing from others, and you're totally flying through the clouds, then you should also come and see if you can do it interpersonally. See if you can get somebody else to fly with you.

[35:41]

Maybe you will. That's what these Zen stories are about. These stories I read you in the morning, they're about these people who have been conversing with themselves, and then they go and check it out with somebody else. See if they can do it together. Once you have forgotten the self, you can join hands with all beings, all Buddhas and Zen ancestors, you can join hands and walk together. But if you haven't really realized it, when you reach out to grab their hand, suddenly, oh my God, there is another after all. Oh my God, there really is somebody who's not me. Well, see you later. No, no, I'm leaving. Bye. I didn't really want to talk. Bye. Sometimes it's rough, sometimes it's subtle.

[36:49]

A pair of solitary wild geese flap their wings on the ground, and together they climb into the void. A couple of mandarin ducks who make for life stand alone by the bank of the green gulch pond. Now putting aside for the moment Harold Point's meeting, what about when somebody cuts the balance beam on the scales? Fa Yen, said the Xushan,

[38:12]

a hair's breadth's difference is like the distance between heaven and earth. How do you test this in experience? Xushan said, a hair's breadth's difference is like the distance between heaven and earth. Fa Yen said, Good, but how can you get it this way? That was good,

[39:38]

but how do you get it that way? The balance beam has been cut. How are you going to get it? What would you say? Is there an other now? Xushan said, I am just thus. How about you? Fa Yen said, a hair's breadth's difference is like the distance between heaven and earth. Xushan bowed.

[40:44]

How do you get it that way? Listening to that conversation, can we be obedient? Can we tune into that conversation? So subtle to listen to. How do you get it that way?

[42:35]

Being entirely devoted to others is to enter this conversation. To enter the conversation of how we dependently co-arise and co-arise. Entering this conversation, one's self is unknown. I should say, having entered completely this conversation, one's self is unknown. This unknown self joined hands spontaneously, effortlessly, fearlessly with all beings and walked together. And together

[43:52]

we realized the entire sky and the great earth. Together we manifest the great body. In the sky there is no self or other. Together holding hands we manifest the Dharma body. On the whole earth there's not an inch of other ground. If I stop soon, this will be the shortest talk during the session so far.

[45:00]

If I stop soon, this will be the shortest talk during the session so far. At the expense of others. Not praising self and forgetting about others. Not praising self and being ungrateful to others. Rather, we praise the unknown self. We praise the forgotten self. Which means we praise everything. And the way we praise is we say I praise you. I appreciate you.

[46:23]

But that's just one way to have a conversation with the forgotten self all around us. There's many other ways to talk. To express praise. To say what did you mean? How do you get it that way? How about you? How about you? Right, right. Wrong, wrong. Right, right.

[48:02]

Wrong, wrong. Right, right. Right, right.

[49:04]

Right, right. Right, right. When you come in the door, carrying food to serve to your guests at breakfast, lunch or dinner, you is a word, guests is a word. Coming thus, you begin a conversation which can be

[51:08]

called breakfast. The question is, will it be a deep breakfast? How do you make it deep? By entering the conversation that is happening as you, together with all beings, dependently co-produce breakfast. You perform step by step, act by act. Every performance conventionally exists through words. Right, left, now, then, him, her, more, less. This is the dance. It could be

[52:18]

that in such daily activities, you could be practicing the way. If you're present for the other, of the words, me and pot, me and bowls, bowls and me. You can actually enter the guts of Buddha, if you're present for what's happening. All the ingredients are being supplied. The words are here.

[53:26]

The question is, will we use them? Will we notice the opportunity being offered in this non-stop flood of words? In this unceasing flood of conventional existence, will we enter the conversation or will we just go flat and be carried away, or fight back and grab it and try to control it? Can you be gentle enough to sit upright and enter this conversation?

[54:45]

People who practice through this kind of total immersion are called Buddhas. Total immersion in karmically created words. Totally engaged in sitting upright in the midst of karmic consciousness which is just words. Words which are just karmic consciousness. The history of liberation is stories where humans have entered into this conversation

[56:03]

and struggled to be present for it as it unfolds. Do we have some other business to get on to besides this? Is there any other work for Bodhisattvas than to just be entirely devoted to others? In conversation, mutually co-creating the universe, is there some other work? Yes, there is. Praising self at the expense of others. I've got more important things to do than this. You, you can do it.

[57:10]

Common sense is nonsense. You take care of it, slob face. I never heard that one before. I heard some people don't want to have a shosan ceremony. They're too busy. Some of them want to have a day off. I saw Magu, you know Magu?

[58:23]

Boucher, Magu, you know Boucher? The guy with the fan. He's a disciple of Master Ma. He shows up at John Ching's house and he doesn't follow the usual etiquette. When you people come in here to serve, you usually follow the usual etiquette. Come in here and go to establish roots. That's very nice. Except on Halloween, I guess. You can follow the established etiquette and still have a dramatic conversation with all beings and realize the teaching of dependent co-arising. But Magu didn't do it that way.

[59:27]

He didn't come in and bow to the teacher as he should. He walked in and walked around the teacher three times. Actually, that's okay. But then he didn't bow. He just shook his his ring staff at the teacher's face and stood there. And this was his contribution to the conversation. And John Ching said, right, right. And he went to see Nanchuan, walked around Nanchuan three times, stood there and shook his staff. Or rather shook his staff and stood there at attention. Nanchuan said, wrong, wrong. John Ching said, right, right. How come you say wrong, wrong? Nanchuan said, John Ching was right. You're wrong, wrong.

[60:33]

What we have here is something that can be blown away by the wind. Inevitably, it degenerates. Right and wrong, right and wrong. Watch out for the trap. Seeming to put down, seeming to uphold, it's hard to tell who is the elder brother, who is the younger brother. Agreeing, he adapts to the time. Denying, what's special to me? One shake of the metal ring staff, standing out all alone.

[61:46]

Three times around the meditation seat, a leisurely romp. The monastery is agitated. Right and wrong are born. It seems like they are seeing ghosts in front of a withered skull. So, I walk around this mountain valley, with stories of ancient conversations in my sleep, or in my bosom. Stories of conversations about Buddha's teaching, which people enacted together and realized the way.

[62:54]

Realizing the entire sky, and the great earth. Talking with each other and realizing the mountains, the rivers, the grasses and the trees. Conversing with the mountains and rivers and the grasses and the trees. Conversing with our pain. And realizing each other. Are we in this conversation? Are you in the midst of such a dramatic conversation?

[63:59]

Or are you sitting in the bleachers with your eyes shut and your ears covered? The show is going on. The usual characters are playing the parts. Self and other. Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are playing the parts. All day long, all night long, they're playing the parts. Are you listening? Are you participating? Or are you just a lonesome self, who doesn't appreciate how she's dependently co-arising to the kindness of others? What is it? Which is it? We're not yet to the...

[65:09]

If the weather holds out, we'll get to the precept of not being angry. We'll get there. But at this point, it's two days away. You can get your hammer ready. Get that dull striker ready. We're not quite there yet, but I'm starting to get angry. But this anger I have is love. It's love for our potential. It's a fierceness. It's a fierce invitation to enter this conversation with all beings. To enter this conversation with yourself on your cushion. To enter this conversation with others when you're walking around.

[66:13]

Enter the conversation. Listen and answer. Answer and listen. Listen. This anger I'm feeling doesn't violate the precept of not being angry. It's anger that we all should feel. It's an angry love that fiercely wants to enter the fire with all beings. And it is scary and tough. So I think I'll go hide.

[67:17]

But maybe somebody will come and rattle their ring staff at me. Anyway, I'd love to meet somebody and create the universe together. I'd love to open my eyes and see what's going on with somebody. How about you?

[68:05]

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