Buddhist literature, which, if you like, you could have. It's a copy of The Great Heart of Perfect Wisdom, the Loving-Kindness Scripture, and the Ehe Koso Hotsugamun. I have several copies, if anyone would like to have them. And you can come get them whenever you like. And who's that? Who are those people? They look like bags. They've been there all day. Oh, they've been there all day? Oh. Oh, Nina and Ambo? Yeah. Oh, no. Well. Should I take them off? It's okay. I think just sort of. There's a seat up here, Jack. Just sort of, we can do a little kind of well-being ceremony by leaving them there, hoping that they will show up someday.

[01:08]

This is our last class for a while, and we're on Case 76. Does anybody need a copy of that case? I don't know. So the story goes like this. Shosan said to the assembly, if you attain at the first phrase, you will be a teacher of Buddhas and ancestors.

[02:24]

If you attain at the second phrase, you will be a teacher of humans and gods. If you attain at the third phrase, you cannot even save yourself. And the monk said, which phrase did you attain? And he said, the moon sets midnight going through the marketplace going through the marketplace I don't know if we discussed this or not, but there's this idea of, you've heard about attachment, right?

[03:33]

You probably, do you have some experience of attachment? Some people have a little bit, and some people have a lot, but nobody has zero, right? You don't have to answer that question. And then there's non-attachment. Right? You've heard about that too, right? Letting go. And then there's not abiding or dwelling in non-attachment. Can you imagine that? If there was some detachment, not abiding in that detachment? And then the further possibility is not even having any intellectualization or any understanding of not dwelling. In a sense, those might be the three phrases that he's referring to here when he was talking to the people.

[04:49]

Does that make sense? It's a possibility anyway. Anybody have any questions about that so far? Well, how was that one day? I noticed... Was it Tuesday? Was it Tuesday that you left? The next day? It would be Wednesday, yeah. On Monday. Yeah, so it was Tuesday. So Tuesday. What happened on Tuesday? Oh, I shifted over from being in the kitchen to the ranch house, and I noticed my real attachment to being a kitchen person. So you found some attachment on Tuesday? On Tuesday you found some attachment? And then what happened? I noticed it probably till sometime after lunch, and then just kind of went about living my life, and not intellectually thinking about whether my passion did this or not, really through what came up with it.

[06:03]

Yes. Can you repeat these three again? It was attachment? No, no. Attachment is just a normal situation that ordinary people are aware of, right? Then there's non-attachment. Okay? That's the first phrase, or the first stage, or the first state. And then there's not dwelling in non-attachment. And then there's not even engaging in an understanding of not dwelling either. Anything, any comments on these three phrases?

[07:12]

Yes? Yesterday in the Dharma talk, Darlene was talking about being sometimes seen when we stop discerning, you know, we stop discriminating, maybe that's the word she used, I don't know. Would that be similar to this? Similar to what? Which is not understanding, not engaging in understanding. Not discriminating. Not, yeah, not discriminating that you like something, don't like something, like not, you know, indulging in preference. What do you think, folks? Does that sound like one of these stages, one of these phrases? Not discriminating, does that sound like one of these stages to you? Huh? Like the third one, maybe? Attaching to something and not attaching. The third one is not having an understanding or not thinking about not dwelling.

[08:13]

Does that sound similar to you? Huh? Yes. It's a little confusing between non-attachment and the strong feelings that one would have for their wife, for their husband, for their children, for their friends? Is the strong feeling and attachment, you mean, are they the same, a strong feeling and attachment? Yes, and where does non-attachment, where does that teaching come to clarify? Uh-huh. Well, let's see. I think it's possible, I wouldn't say it's possible, I would just say that there is talk about being really devoted to beings, really considering a being very precious.

[09:30]

And not feeling precious about that being, but wanting to help that being in any way to promote their well-being, their happiness, and their development, their potential development. You could have a very strong feeling about someone like that. but not attached to even the idea of that person being a being, or that person being, you know, existing separate from you, for example. So this is, and actually the bodhisattva, the ones who are devoted to beings, those who are devoted to beings and who are considered beings to be very precious, They're advised to, which we saw in a previous case, they're advised in the Diamond Sutra to give rise to a thought which doesn't abide anywhere, which doesn't depend on anything.

[10:37]

And this is the mind that works well for the welfare of others. So it's possible to, again, with someone close to you that lives with you, like your spouse or your children, to be virtually, you know, totally devoted to them and consider them very precious, but have no attachment to them in the sense that you don't dwell in the way they look, the way they sound, what you think of them. You don't dwell on any of that. And you actually don't think that there's a being out there, over there. You let go of the idea that this person is out there, separate from you. So there's no way to attach, there's no being to attach to. And yet you're devoted to these beings that you're not attached to. What are the degrees of preciousness?

[11:38]

Are the degrees of preciousness for the one who doesn't have any attachments, you mean? Yeah, or is it just all equal playing? They're all equal, equally precious. That's difficult. Difficult to understand, you mean? Or difficult to attain? Difficult to attain. Yeah. That would be quite an attainment. That would be quite an attainment if you actually didn't appreciate anybody less than anybody else. Now, it might be possible to appreciate someone more than somebody else if, for example, I could maybe appreciate you more than the person you were to me yesterday.

[12:45]

That would be okay, if I appreciated you more than I used to. And then tomorrow I appreciate you more. You get more and more precious to me. No, this is not good. Not for this thing about ... I'm just saying, for what I'm talking about, the ones who are being encouraged not to dwell on anything, those beings are encouraged to do that so that their opinion of beings doesn't go down. They don't care less about beings, they care more and more about beings. And not dwelling and not depending on anything helps you care more and more about beings. And the more you care about beings, the better for them and the better for you. That's this program of happiness through caring for beings. And dwelling in anything

[13:48]

undermines your development of appreciation of life. That's the idea. So, if you appreciate beings now, good. And if you learn to not dwell in anything, your appreciation will probably increase, or at least, if not increase, for person X, spread to other beings. So your sense of of valuing life starts to expand because of not dwelling in anything. Thank you. But this is a training course, right? To learn how to do that. Yes? But if we should depart, then doesn't that imply that we appreciate that person more than others? And if we would not appreciate that person more than others, why do we choose this person and not another one? That would be random.

[14:53]

Well, for example, you might have a little brother who you love as much as anybody in the world. And yet you might meet another person that you want to have be your spouse. And somehow you don't want your brother to be your spouse. even though you love your brother a lot or your sister. I mean, like you feel like no limit to your love of them. It's like nothing could be more precious than your brother or your sister. But you don't even... And you're not inhibiting yourself because of some incest taboo. You really don't want to live with them in the same bed and have babies with them. Maybe. Is that possible? And you meet somebody else and you love them just as much as you love your brother or sister. But this person you kind of want to have a baby with or something, maybe. Or anyway, you want to live in the same room and sleep in the same bed with this person.

[15:58]

But you don't necessarily love them more than this other person. And you'd do anything for both of them. So that's an example where you don't… And you might meet another person who you love just as much as the previous two persons. But since you already have these, since you married this one or whatever and made a commitment to this one, you maybe don't get into bed with the next person and the next person and the next person. So you just say, well, you know, I'm just an ordinary woman. I can't have like 17 husbands or 17 wives. I'm just, you know, I have my limits. I have a busy schedule. And I just don't think it's practical for me to do that. Plus, given my commitments, it would hurt my spouse if I did that. So I love you, but I don't want to have a relationship with you that would hurt you or hurt my spouse. So I love you, equal to my spouse, really, but I don't live in the same house with you, same bed. So that's possible.

[17:00]

Can you imagine that? Yeah, it's like that. We saved your seat for you, hoping that you and your spouse were well. Oh, my spouse sends her regrets. She could not. Okay, give that seat up then. We give up. It's very inexpensive. So, yeah, so... The first kind of non-attachment helps us let our devotion spread. The second phase purifies our non-attachment so that we don't get stuck in non-attachment. In other words, if attachment might be helpful, You know, we have a little attachment.

[18:03]

Whatever is helpful. We're not stuck in some idea of letting go. Does that make sense? So if you're attached to somebody, or if I'm attached to somebody and I lose them, I suffer. If I'm not attached to them and I lose them, do I still suffer? No. No. You don't. So Buddha loves you. Yes, I know. Or the sutra tells me so. But, although Buddha loves me, Buddha does not suffer when I grow old. Buddha doesn't suffer from my changes because Buddha is not attached to me being a set way.

[19:06]

Buddha loves me in all my manifestations. And if I develop as a practitioner, Buddha loves me. If I degenerate as a practitioner, Buddha loves me. So Buddha doesn't suffer because of my change. However, Buddha feels my suffering if I am attached to anything and I suffer because of my attachment. Buddha feels my suffering, but it's not exactly Buddha's suffering. It's just that my suffering gets to Buddha and Buddha loves me and is open to my suffering and shares my suffering in a sense. But Buddha does not suffer when we change. Does he want to end your suffering? Yeah. Well, he doesn't exactly want to end your suffering because if Buddha could end your suffering, then Buddha would. But Buddha can't. Apparently. And actually, in some cases, the Buddha is quoted saying, you know, that the Buddhas do not

[20:10]

reach down into the realm of suffering and pull the beings up and shake them off and set them on the other shore. What they do is they go to beings that are in suffering, they get close to them, and then they speak Dharma to them. So they give them teachings. Because the being has to receive the teaching has to open to the Dharma. Because if the being doesn't open to the Dharma, then the Buddha can't save them. But the Buddha can give them Dharma teachings, which if they were open to, they would wake up. And the Buddha can also give them teachings about how to open, how to listen, how to look. So Buddha definitely wants us to become free of suffering, but Buddha doesn't make us free of suffering. The Buddha saves us by giving us teachings about how we can about how we can be. And when we hear these teachings sometimes, we hear these teachings and we respond in a way that, you know, the teachings sink into us and then we're transformed.

[21:17]

So in that way the Buddha saves us or liberates us, but the Buddha doesn't actually take our suffering away. The Buddha liberates us by giving us teachings or by being a teaching. But the Buddhas still, some people, if they're closed to the Buddha, the Buddha can't open them sometimes. If they're closed to the Buddha, the Buddha's teaching just bounces off them. And Buddhas, generally speaking, do not press on somebody who is not in the mood. So even though the Buddha may have something very helpful to say to you, If you're not in the mood, the Buddha won't push this on you and have you reject it. So the Buddha can give teachings about how you can make yourself ready for the teachings.

[22:23]

And those teachings could be given to you when you're ready to receive the teachings about how to be ready for the teachings. And then after you receive the teachings about how to be ready, and then they sink in and transform you and you're ready, then other teachings can come which will transform you further. Just by hearing them and understanding them, you're a different person. So the Buddha wants you to, wants this for you. So in the Lotus Sutra it says the Buddha has, the thing that makes Buddhas appear in the world is that the Buddhas want to open our eyes, open us to Buddha's wisdom and knowledge. And Buddhas want to show us Buddha's wisdom and knowledge. And Buddhas want to help us wake up to Buddha's wisdom and knowledge. And Buddhas want to help us enter Buddha's wisdom and knowledge.

[23:29]

So we have these four phases, which in some sense maybe you can see in some way that they're related to if you were caring for beings and you have attachments, then those attachments could be getting away. Does that make sense, how they might get in the way? then if you can become unattached, that would free you up somehow to move with people and interact with people in a way that might be appropriate. And then a further refinement would be that you wouldn't be stuck, you wouldn't stay in your non-attachment. You would even give up your non-attachment. You would detach from your attachment. Does that make sense? And then it would become so thorough that you wouldn't even think about the fact that you're not attached. You wouldn't even, like, carry that around. You wouldn't have any idea of that, that you're engaged with.

[24:38]

So those would be three different phases. And we shouldn't dwell on any of those. We should pass through all of them. Does that make sense? Pretty thorough course, I guess. It's not like you go one, two, three, and then you master the third one, and then you don't have any problems with the other two, or are you always going in and out, in and out of them? I guess you're not attached to any of them. It's not necessarily one, two, three, but it could be one, two, three. It could be one, two, three, but also three is kind of like before you even start zero. I mean, some people have no idea. and no understanding of non-abiding or non-dwelling. They've already accomplished that. But although they've accomplished it, they haven't gone through it. Because as soon as they find out about not attaching, they would probably develop an understanding of it.

[25:46]

But some of you maybe don't even have an understanding of that yet, so in some sense you're already there. But you have to pass through it, and the way you pass through it is you're able to have an understanding and you don't entertain it. So it could be like three, zero, one, two, three. There's various possibilities, but the point is you go through all of them. You go through attachment, you go through non-attachment, you go through not abiding in a non-attachment, and you go through not having any idea of non-attachment. All these different phases you go through. These are different possibilities for ways to understand attachment and non-attachment. And this is like, working with these is very important work for those who are caring for beings. If you're trying to help people, it's good to be working with this material because this will clear you while you're working. So, let's see, we have Mikael and Bernd.

[26:49]

We are talking about non-attachment by handling what is non-attachment about. And what came up for me was a story I heard about a Zen master, and I don't know the name, and he loved the sun. And so he was mourning and crying. The disciple came and asked him, why are you crying? that showed, kind of, he felt like, oh, his Master is so attached. He has some, he's trying to show so much attachment. But then, I don't know, I'm not sure exactly what he replied, but it was obvious that he was not attached, but he was, it was not about attachment. And so, I'm wondering about what is attachment? And you said something like, that at some point non-attachment is about that attachment is not in the way.

[27:54]

And is that non-attachment? To be attached, to have attachment, and not about not to have attachment, attachment. Yeah. And then there's not being attached to whatever you just said. If by any chance you understood anything there. Who knows? Yes? I tried to relate the teaching of the three phases or three phrases to the practice of Samatha. I thought it would make a lot of sense to do that, but then I kind of got confused. And then when you got confused, how did you practice?

[28:56]

I'm bringing it up. Really? I'm bringing it up. So we're up to date now. Pardon? What about that? You hear about shamatha, you hear about the practice of shamatha. Yes. You actually practice shamatha and you try to practice shamatha. That's one. That's one what? That's first case or first place. Is that attachment or non-attachment? It's non-attachment. How so? Well, because the practice of shamatha is not elaborating upon what you are attached to. Okay. So then what's the second phase, not to be attached to the practice of shamatha? Yes. What is that you're saying? Are you saying that is the second phase?

[29:59]

I'm asking, is that the second phase? If the practice of shamatha is non-attachment to your concepts, and then not being attached to that practice, that would be like the second phase. that would, however, that wouldn't necessarily, maybe what that would be would be, you still could say that it's like shamatha or tranquility practice, and maybe, but being done without, you know, holding on to the tranquility practice, which makes the tranquility practice more flexible and, you know, pliant, which would probably be part of actually attaining stabilization. So that would be good. And then finally, you wouldn't even have some idea of what you were doing, which would also be fine.

[31:06]

So in this particular practice, you could apply these three phases to that practice. you could apply the second phase as moving, as practicing stabilization or practicing tranquility in the first one. And the second one would be opening to insight. Because in the first case, you were doing a practice of not attaching to the concepts you're aware of. and then you don't abide in that non-attachment, which means you allow for the mind to open up somewhat. Not necessarily including opening up to attachment, but opening up to many things. opening up to a new way of being with the concepts beyond just not attaching to them and manipulating and elaborating them.

[32:15]

And new ways of being would be to look and see what they are. That would be one of the things that would be allowed. But non-attachment would be a good way to be with it because if you specifically try to practice looking for something particular as insight practice, that might, again, kind of not really open you up so much. So you could also see these two phases as tranquility and then insight. So you could apply all three phases to insight, or you could apply all three phases to stabilization, or you could apply the first one to stabilization and the second one to insight. And then the third one, not even have any idea or any understanding of the previous processes. You could do that.

[33:18]

That would be some way you could think about it. And then after you think about that, then remember that the third one is not to think about it that way, to get through thinking about it. So really now, Ana, you should ask a question. I was not here last time, so you might have talked about this. I don't get it why in the first phase you will be teacher of Buddhas and patriarchs, and in the second you will be teacher of humans and gods, and in the third you cannot even save yourself. That's... Backwards. Vernon thinks it's backwards, and you think it's what? He was helping you by completing your sentence. Yeah, he's a nice guy.

[34:20]

But what were you going to say? Don't tell us, Vernon. Back to Boston. And you stay here. So there is some hierarchy in that. And my first idea is, like, the first stage is the lowest step, the first step in hierarchy. With that, you teach the highest beings. And that's... I don't get that, really. It's kind of what Vernon said. It's the opposite. I don't know. I just don't get the logic of it. Anybody else have that thought? Probably. So if it's hierarchical, then you would think, well, if three is higher than one, then three should be the one for the Buddhas, right?

[35:23]

Right? But I also was disturbed that there was this hierarchy, to be honest. Yeah. So if there is a hierarchy... then it's kind of like you don't see why it should be that way. You don't see why it would be applied that way, why you give the Buddhas the lowest and the highest teaching, you wouldn't even be able to help yourself. So you have a problem with that. It's possible it's not a hierarchy. And it's also possible that... Here's a story, right? The story is that for the Buddhas, all you have to teach them the only teaching they need to know is non-attachment. Because once they understand that, they don't attach to non-attachment, and they also don't have any idea of non-attachment. So the first teaching is enough for the Buddhas. That's one way to think of it. The lowest teaching.

[36:28]

You can call it the lowest or the first, but that's all they need. You've got the brightest people. Yes. But then you're also saying that you have to go through each stage, right? In order to process this or to get this, you have to be familiar with all three concepts, right? I may have said that, but that may not be true. But somebody else has talked about this. You heard somebody talking about passing through all three, haven't you? There is this kind of talk. But I don't know if it's a must. It's a possibility. So I keep thinking about this ignorance is bliss sort of idea. Yes. So if you have limited, well, if you're a child or if you have limited mental faculties. I remember in high school working with kids with Down syndrome, and they were very good at S. Yes.

[37:29]

They were very present. Right. So in terms of this passing through and how that relates to sort of intellect, you know, cognitive getting of it, is that necessary? Or what would you say about if you have limited sort of network capacity, is it still possible to pass through all of these or even the first one? Well, So one question is, if you have limited cognitive possibilities, is it possible to what? To pass through all these stages? If you have limited, if you have, I don't know, limited, but if you have less developed cognitive faculties than a normal human being, there's certain problems which you'll never have because you can't even think of those problems. Okay? So certain problems you won't have if you don't have the equipment for having those problems.

[38:30]

However, if you are ignorant and Down syndrome people and dogs and normal children and normal adults, and by normal I would say the people in the middle of the bell curve, all these people are endowed with ignorance. And the ignorance they're endowed with is not bliss. It's irritating. It's a source of pain. However, the more equipment you have to go with the ignorance, the more you suffer. So in some sense, Down syndrome people do not suffer in certain ways because they can't apply their ignorance in ways that other people can. So there are certain things they don't even know how to be afraid of. That's why they have caregivers because, you know, they're not suspicious of the situations which people think they should be suspicious of.

[39:33]

But not being suspicious of those situations, they're more mellow and more open and loving. So I've told that story about this little boy who was the nephew of one of our students. I think his name was R.T. or T.R., I think it's R.T., Robert Thomas was his name, Robert Thomas, something such. And he was very Buddha-esque, and particularly when he got sick, he had a shave, his hair fell out, you know, he got cancer. And he was this little baby, and he would just sit on the kitchen table, you know, with his legs crossed, just beaming, loving everybody in sight. But he did have enough cognitive ability to notice that if somebody wasn't nice to his sister, he could understand that. And then he didn't like that. But that's about as far as he could go. And then he could suffer at that level of somebody being mean to his sister. But aside from that, he really just had no problems with anybody. But if you gave him the cognitive abilities, then he would apply them in the same way.

[40:41]

inappropriate way that normal deluded people would. That's my sense of things. So Rosy suffers in ways that I can understand and most of us can understand, so we can easily empathize with what she's worried about. But there's certain things she doesn't worry about that we do. but also certain kinds of instruction about how to pay attention to what you're worried about and certain instructions about how to look at what you're clinging to are difficult to give to her or to a Down syndrome kid. It would be hard to instruct them about how to identify what their misconceptions are so that they could become free. because it's very subtle to get the instruction about how to look at these things. So in that sense, it somehow has now become helpful to have a normal human intelligence so that you can get a lot of instruction about how to use your normal human intelligence for meditation.

[41:52]

So I don't think knowing less is actually freedom from suffering. It's just it isn't as elaborate and kinky as more intelligent peoples. But they suffer, and also they have no way of bringing their suffering out in such clear ways as more fully endowed humans do. That's my view. So I'm into bringing the suffering out in front so we can see it. And I appreciate your willing to do that. Yes. So this point that Anna brought up is one that's kind of interesting to me, because I'm not sure exactly how to understand these various categorizations of being. The teacher of Buddhas and patriarchs are ancestors.

[42:55]

I don't remember exactly the application of that, but I do remember that Manjushri is said to be teacher of Buddhas, historical teacher of Buddhas. And I think that maybe there are other trans-historical bodhisattvas who are described as being the teachers of Buddhas. The teacher of humans and gods, I think, is an epithet of the Buddha. And one who cannot even save oneself I don't remember encountering that before, but the notion would be that would be also a condition of a bodhisattva, one who does not make any effort on one's own behalf. Right. That's the way I first thought of it, is that not being able even to save yourself, that that was the highest. That's what I somewhat thought there. But I can also see it sounds like the opposite. So there's another possibility, there's another story about this thing.

[43:57]

And another story is that these stories are rhetoric. These stories are not, these stories are just something to stimulate us, to snap us into the right view. So this story here in these three stages, in one sense they sound like a Zen master teaching you stages, but they may actually be rhetoric, and the main rhetoric of Zen is irony. The most typical form of rhetoric is irony, partly because it turns us and snaps us. So what he said there, he might have been being ironic, too. And you had, for you and you, the irony sort of hit you. You said the opposite. That's part of what irony is, is the opposite of what you think it means is what it means. Now, it could have been something that followed along with your expectations, and that could have been ironic, too.

[45:02]

Except you wouldn't have, the irony would have been, what would you say, wasted on you. In this case, if it's irony, it's not wasted because you feel the irony. So this may be ironic. So it could be that what appears to be the usual order, I mean, of one, two, three, is actually the case, that not even being able to save yourself is actually the third stage. Or it could be that that the order is actually the first stage is not exactly higher, but it is for higher beings. So the lower stage is for higher beings and the higher stage is for lower beings. But the higher stage for lower beings doesn't sound very good because it doesn't even work for them. But also it may be the opposite, like Stuart's saying, that the first is the teaching, for Buddhas, second is the teaching of the Buddhas, and third is the teaching of bodhisattvas.

[46:08]

So there's all kinds of possibilities here. But now, before we get into, waste any more time, since the class is almost over, there's another line here, a couple more lines, you know. And so what's that about? The monk says, what stage did you attain at? And he says, this business about the moon sets and then midnight going into the marketplace, or after the moon sets at midnight going into the marketplace. That's a response to apparently the question, what stage did you attain at? Yes? I think it's beyond dog three. He says, in a way, he says, at none of those three stages, but beyond them.

[47:19]

Where I am at, there are no more stages. So how is that? Who can say? You. I'm not there. You're not there or you refuse to talk? I'm not there. You're not there? I thought you said you were. Were you speaking for somebody else? Yes. And speaking for yourself, you were saying you're not there. That's right. Where are you? Elsewhere. Now... No, no, no, no, no, no. Are you willing to come forward and suffer with us? I'm willing. You're willing? Yes. Okay, so where are you? Before, not after. You're before, not after. Before what?

[48:22]

Before the three phases. Oh, so you're in, what do you call that? Tell us about that. How is that? A bell-shaped curve. A bell-shaped curve. You're in the bell-shaped curve? Yes. In the middle area? In the middle. Okay. And how is it there? Protected. Protected. Protected by the big ball. As the one rings the bell. Huh? As the one rings the bell. Yeah. Ah, I wish I had a bell. Yes? The marketplace would be empty at midnight. The marketplace would be empty at midnight. Unless it was the safe way. All right. All right. I was tempted to agree with Fred, but I don't want his problems.

[49:38]

You know, at sort of a gross level, I understand Shoshan as saying the moon set, so I would understand the moon as a figure awakening, okay? I'm in a situation where I'm not holding on to awakening. Awakening has set, and midnight, it's just everything is completely dark. There's nothing to hold on to. And I'm going through the marketplace. I'm entering into the realm of beings. So I've completely let go. I'm not even talking now about attainment. I don't say there's no attainment, but I'm not in the business of attainment. I'm just working with beings where they are. And is that where you are? I'm an officiary.

[50:40]

I saw on your story, Susie, who oceaned out more woods than a horse, was it for it? It was the fourth horse? Yes, the one that has to really get whacked? Yeah, I saw that as the fourth horse. The last line? The last line. As the fourth horse? That's to show you where I am. But I think that, for me, it was like, in utter darkness, no mood, with being in the marketplace. That's where I, the right thing did. When you were in the marketplace, did you get hit? With that? Okay. Well, you seem to have healed pretty well. That's good. Cleaned off the blood. Well, actually, I think it's the same as super stewards, isn't it? No, it's different. What's the difference? Mine was not beyond. Mine was like in the muck. Oh, you're in the muck. How about you?

[51:42]

Are you in the muck? Are you the beneficiary of somebody being in the muck? Yes. So you're a little bit more advanced than him currently. I'm much in her debt. Yes. So Stuart is thanking you for being willing to do what he hopes... There's thorns in the mud. He knows about that. That's why he's so grateful for you. That's why he's over here worshipping those of you who are in the marketplace. That's why he lives in West Moran. Deep, deep west. He lives in more westerly Marin than we are. I live in the Pacific Plate. Yeah. You're like on about as west as you can get in Marin, right? If you get any more west, you're in Sonoma. You can go take a bath. I was thinking about if you attain the third phase, you cannot even save yourself.

[52:49]

And I think it was Lee Welch. I read something a couple of years ago where he was talking about how when you save beings, it means that you include them. And so I was thinking about that if you attain the third phase, you cannot even include yourself. And then I was thinking about what you said earlier about how there's a way of... a way of being where there's no perception of other beings. And so that to me felt like it's going through, it's basically going through the marketplace. It's penetrating everywhere but having no set location because there's no being, there's no solid being. It's actually moving in one direction or another. Mm-hmm. Renée? Well, I really like Shosan's response. Uh-huh. I'm sure he's happy to hear that. I'm saying that because it seems to me that what the monk is asking Shosan to do is to discriminate, and that he's asking it from more of a relative standpoint.

[53:54]

And when Shosan answers, he doesn't engage the monk's attempt to be relative. It's almost as if Shosanna is going, I mean, I don't see him making the statement about the moon set at midnight and going to the marketplace as an attempt for the monk to take that as some kind of metaphor, except for to have the experience in the moment. What's the experience? Is that how it's going to be now? Are you left-handed? No. Yes. I want to say something. I don't know if I can express it directly. Where I see it is, actually for me the whole koan, not so much is about one teaching, but much more about how teachings come about.

[55:12]

I feel that the darkness in Islam refers to that process. I can't say what the process is, but I feel the word for it, which is mentioned in the text, is ancestral time. So I'm under the delusion I'm saying something meaningful. And maybe I'll be with somebody else. But the delusion is that this is coming forth from me, Why what's being said here is why something like the teaching comes up, and in ancestral time it's being voiced by somebody, and maybe through the generations it comes up again, and kind of again, maybe then it's finally voiced.

[56:13]

Maybe it's finally what? Voiced. Uh-huh. Yes. Anna made me realise one interpretation of the moon sets midnight going through the marketplace, because I think what she was saying, or sort of made me think of, was it's an abbreviation of the Oxford, a nice abbreviation. because the last one is always back in the marketplace again, and then the circle we're supposed to just go slipping through, not staying there with birds singing to us, leaving out our hands. And because that leaves the moon setting, it's taking all the previous ones, which, I don't know, maybe the moon setting would be finally giving up the search for enlightenment. I don't know. works for me right at this moment.

[57:16]

It's appropriate for me at this moment. I'm not going to be in the next moment. You mean giving up the search for enlightenment might be appropriate for you now? An interpretation of the moon sets. That's just what it... The grasping for enlightenment, the human being, is sort of a metaphor for enlightenment. That just came to me. But I just admire the way that by leaving out certain predicates and not defining them, not setting them or objects of whatever, they just keep this going and just never stop, wearing all the bumps off so it's perfectly circular and just keeps rolling. There are so many appropriate interpretations. So many painful interpretations.

[58:19]

What are the painful interpretations? All of them. Well, it feels like running through a briar patch to me. This whole case, you know, I didn't want to read it, and I read it, and it's just agonizing. People try and figure out who came first and who came second. It's, you know, I just feel like, you know, kind of bleeding all over the page. Are you bleeding all over the page now? Yeah. And what's the practice at this point? Sort of being interested in thorns.

[59:32]

Settling down. Is being interested in the thorns the same as settling down? No. So what's the practice? Settling down. Settling down. Settling down with the painful interpretations that are arising? Mm-hmm. What's the practice of settling down? Pardon? What's the practice of settling down? Do you have anything to tell us about that? No, you're not going to say anything? Total failure at it. Your failure at what? The practice of settling down. You've been trying? Maybe I said maybe I don't try.

[60:42]

You haven't been trying? You were supposed to be trying. You told me you were going to try. And you didn't try to settle down? Well, do you want me to help you? Well, I'm going to ask you again and just tell me the truth. Have you been settling down? I see a lot of bleeding. And when you see bleeding, do you settle? Is there bleeding now? And are you settling now with the bleeding?

[61:45]

No, I'm angry. Do you want us to help you settle? Or do you want... You don't need any help being angry, do you? No. No. So do you want some help settling? Yes. How can we help you settle? I don't think... I don't think you can help me settle. I can't help you? I think I have... I think it's my... Somehow I think it's up to you. And now that... in thinking that it's up to you, are you ready to settle? More than usual, yes. Are you settling?

[62:49]

Is there settling happening now? Very angry. You're very angry. Is there settling happening with this anger? It's an artificial kind of settling. It's not real. Not real. Is there a settling with this artificial settling? No. And is this the way you want to go? It would seem so, but no. It would seem so, but no. So, since... It would seem so since that's the way it's going, and yet in a certain way you don't want to go with this, even though it seems to be going that way, maybe you could reconsider this thing about getting some help. Because you look like you need help, because you're going some way and it's not the way you want to go. Like you're not in control of what's happening here. I think I get so much help. You do? I think I do.

[63:50]

What help are you getting? Pardon me? What help are you getting in settling? Well, you are helping all the time. Am I helping you settle? Yes. Do you want continued help settling? Yes. You change your mind about that? Now you want it? You want the help settling? Do you want everybody to help you? Would it be helpful if we all asked you to settle? Would that be helpful? I'm not sure. What do you think? Yeah. If you knew that we all really wanted you to do that, would that sort of back you up? Yeah. Okay. Now, I don't know if you people want her to settle, but if you do want her to settle, would you please say yes, you do want her to settle? Yes? Yes. Yes, but... We're supporting you. You don't have to do it on your own. Is anybody asking her not to settle? No, we're not.

[64:52]

You can do that part all by yourself quite nicely, right? So that's there, and your habit is not to settle. You're asking her to trust yourself. Yeah, that would be helpful in settling, wouldn't it? It might help us to settle. Yeah, that definitely would help us. Thank you. Please do that. However, you know, we'll keep trying to be present no matter what you do. I just want to say one last thing. I want to wholeheartedly accept leaving pain. This is my wish for myself. Great. That's another way to say settling. That's what we're talking about with Susan, right? Settle with the pain of this case.

[65:55]

This case which has these... This guy brought this stuff up. The Zen teacher brought this stuff up. Yes. Yeah, I don't like this case this week either. I left it last week. And I also feel like I'm in this Rorschach blot. You're in the blot, or you're looking at the blot? Well, I feel like I'm in it. Or I feel like I'm in it with everybody. This case has suddenly turned into that. And that's hard for you? Well, I'm noticing how uncomfortable I am in it, which I hadn't quite put that together before. I just thought it was me. I didn't connect it to my feelings about the Apes. And it has to do, for me too, with talking about the hierarchy or the sense of a hierarchy and talking about attainment and whether it's forwards or backwards or...

[67:08]

It makes me really uncomfortable. What makes you uncomfortable? This feeling of not settled, but it's like... This feeling of going forward or attaining something? Well, the feeling of not knowing which way it's going, whether it's forward or backward, whether it's okay to attain or not to attain. I'm getting very confused. You're getting confused because you don't know whether we're going forward or backwards or whether we're attaining something or not attaining something. Whether it's okay to attain something. Whether it's okay to attain something or okay not to attain something. Or not to attain something. And also you're not sure if we are attaining something. I'm definitely not sure if we are attaining something. For all you know, we might be attaining something. We are, and I'm not sure I want that. You've attained something. What you've attained is feeling uncomfortable? Yes. You've attained that? Absolutely. And what's this case saying about attaining being uncomfortable?

[68:13]

You don't know? You're not sure? No, I don't. You could say something, but you wouldn't know if that was right or not. Well, I was just scanning the case in my head to see if something could not come. It feels to me like it ends with rolling everything into one. That last sentence to me kind of feels like somehow it all has to get rolled back into one ball. Like, you don't know if it makes sense? But is this like the marketplace? Are you in the marketplace? I am. Right. Yeah. Kind of like the marketplace. And so you come to the class partly out of, what, kind of like want to follow through on coming to the class since you signed up for it? Oh, no. I've enjoyed the class every time. It's just today I'm saying.

[69:19]

You're enjoying it today? I'm not. You're not enjoying it? No. What are you doing? I'm enjoying it. I'm not enjoying it. You're not enjoying it because of these feelings you told us about? Exactly. You don't like to not know these things? Right. Okay. So would you like me now to tell you which way to go? If I thought you would. If you thought I would, you might say yes? Yes. If you really want me to tell you which way to go, I'll tell you a way to go. But I haven't heard anybody really tell me that yet, so we're still not... Most of us don't know which way to go right now, right? Except maybe Andy knows. Yes, Andy? I'm going to read it again. I'd like people to think about this being precisely the same as the first reading. Okay. Shoshan said to the assembly, if you attain the first phrase, you cannot even save yourself.

[70:31]

If you attain the second phrase, you'll be the teacher of humans and gods. If you attain the third phrase, you'll be a teacher of Buddhas and patriarchs. Which phrase did you attain? I think all three are pretty equivalent. I think if you attain an end phrase, you're going to teach Buddhists and patriarchs, you're going to teach humans and gods, and you won't even be able to save yourself. What self? Exactly. I mean, I don't think that this cone is much different than the ones we've dealt with in the sense that... LAUGHTER The lights are out, huh? Well, just a few minutes left. I'd like to hear from some people who haven't spoken yet. Yes. I wonder, is this case about making some crazies about what's right or what this one or that one is?

[71:38]

It's sort of teaching me what it feels like to not grasp. Is this koan about that? So, if it is about that, then what should I do to that question? Next. Yes? Last week you said something about if it's superficial, then really profound. And many people are really going deep with this case. That's why it's so stirring up all this stuff. Does that sound good to them? Mm-hmm. They're not staying at the good-sounding level? You're voluntarily going to the not-good-sounding level, for some reason? Yes? Well, I was reading this and thinking, we're actually, earlier today, experiencing no separation.

[72:43]

So, looking at this in a hierarchical sense is, creating a separation, I thought, for me, that there isn't a separation. And there isn't a separation. It's just a designation. We play the moon sets, and now at midnight we're going in the marketplace. But these are just more constant. And so I feel like I've just got a different spin on it. that it isn't really about attainment for me. It's about non-separation. And that when I get into attainment, I miss the point, as I see it.

[73:44]

When you get into attainment, you miss the point. Yeah. And so if you get into attainment and you miss the point, you're not getting into attainment. And if you avoid getting into attainment and don't miss the point, you're getting into attainment. So welcome to class. Yes? No, not you. Is it possible to be involved in the three phases simultaneously, being aware? Yes, it is possible. You are right now. So it's not so much a cycle where you complete... It's possible to be involved in a cycle. Okay. It seems that they go simultaneously.

[74:50]

It seems that they go simultaneously? That's how it seems? Then that's the way it is for you. Because you're into how it seems, aren't you? And trying to understand. Pardon? And trying to understand. You're into how it seems and trying to understand while you're into how it seems? It's two different words. How about, you're into how it seems. Next? Yes. When I was lying awake all night and watching the sky, there is no, or there's kind of no difference with what you said, and there was no way to distinguish add to the darkness, but just by something that was almost not conscious. It was there. It was just there, and it was still there, like, very different.

[75:54]

It was this experience, but there had not been any differentiation, one condition to another. Lying there all day, seeing that. And it was that way. This feels that way? The way you are right now, this experience right now is like that? Feel better now, Liz? Yes. For me, the non-grasping and the not knowing... Could you speak up, please? ...and the not thinking about not grasping, that seems like the next level of ignorance, because of having no thoughts about not knowing or not grasping.

[76:59]

And then it made me sad. My mind grasped onto being sad and suffered because when you said that, Beings have to receive the Dharma, and more they have to understand it, to conclude what they're suffering relieved. And doesn't that seem like it is a hierarchy that only people on the one end of the bell curve even have the possibility of being saved, but yet the Bodhisattva bells are like, you know, I've got to save all beings. But there's no potential to save all beings if they don't understand the Dharma. Well, one thing I just want to mention is that ignorance is not just not having any thought. Ignorance is a thought, is a way of thinking. Now, what's the problem about beings not being saved? Is that a problem? Because you were mentioning that the Buddhas offer the Dharma, and people are transformed when they receive the Dharma, but they have to understand it also.

[78:03]

Well, I don't know if I said that, but if I did, when you actually receive the Dharma, you're transformed, and your transformation is understanding. So the transformation is understanding versus having to understand it? The transformation is the understanding. There's intellectual understanding, that's some kind of understanding, and there's reflective understanding, But the full understanding is you're just different. You're just in accord with the Dharma. That's the understanding. So then the potential for that transformation is for people in the bell curve also. Right. But even now, someone who Someone who doesn't even yet have the kind of ignorance that can be impacted by the Buddha's teaching, that can be transformed, such a person needs to develop the ability to have the kind of ignorance that can be touched by the teaching so it can be transformed.

[79:18]

So it's kind of a limitation of Buddha that Buddha has trouble teaching beings that, for example, can't talk. Buddha has trouble. The Buddha in this world system that we're living in, this Shakyamuni Buddha guy, he actually was not able to teach dogs and cats in the same way such that they actually could be transformed by his teaching. So we wait for rebirth? I don't know about that. and hopefully more intelligence? Actually, for more ignorance, for more fully established. So your ignorance becomes fully fledged. What do you say? Viable. Viable, yeah. The ignorance becomes enough so that when the Dharma interacts with it, it is actually transformed into being in harmony with correct conception.

[80:21]

Could we say that ignorance creates the teaching? What did I say? Ignorance creates the teaching? No. Well, I didn't exactly say it creates it, but it is a condition for it. The teaching depends on ignorance. Buddhas depend on ignorance. But the universe has created ignorance. The universe has within it this ability to create ignorance by creating living beings. And it also has within it the medicine for the ignorance. It's all implicit. or explicit. But before it was explicit, it was implicit and still implicit and is also to some extent explicit. Ignorance is explicit and we need to be very explicit about the ignorance.

[81:25]

And so it seems like this particular koan has, I think, made ignorance fairly explicit. And that's difficult, difficult to settle with it. So some people are having difficulty settling with the ignorance that has become rather explicit through this case. But whether you kind of explicitly try to settle with the ignorance or whether you do some practice so that you indirectly settle with ignorance, it does seem to be necessary to settle with ignorance, to not be distracting ourselves from it, to admit it, which means to admit also the discomfort that is associated with it. and to also have confidence that such a settling is appropriate to becoming free of it, to becoming free of ignorance and to becoming free of suffering, that is settling with it.

[82:40]

So to have a class where we get together and suffering, frustration and pain becomes explicit, without us going around hitting people or something, but just by being confronted with certain material that our mind is activated in response to the material for us to see our grasping and our ignorance seems quite good. And now that this has happened, it seems like, in some ways, maybe many of you are ready to really plunge into this case. Now that you're not trying to figure it out and avoid... Now that you're not trying to avoid the fact that you're trying to figure it out, now that you've admitted that you're trying to figure it out and you've been unsuccessful,

[83:41]

now that you see that that root for this koan is going to be very painful and unproductive, and you're not going to try to find another way that's more clever, and you're just going to accept that you're already clever enough to cause yourself considerable discomfort. So now maybe you can start accepting that that's the kind of person you are and try to live with yourself, and this koan, because if you take the koan away, you'll stop noticing how uncomfortable you're making yourself by the way you think about this koan. So the koan will continue to help you if you stay with it now, because it's annoying you. So you probably want to move on to the next case, or go back to some other cases where you've had a sense of the way you thought about those cases you felt more comfortable with. But here's one that seems to be showing you that the way you're thinking is... Truly a good case.

[84:51]

It's explicit, really. I think it's got some subtleties to it that are astounding. Yeah, it's just astounding. Mia. I just wanted to say, it feels extremely violent to me. I'm just really glad you're all here. Thank you. And next fall, when we start studying koans again, I don't know what to say. I think if I tell you that we're going to start with this case, then nobody will show up. Because, you know, you're a bunch of cowards. So nobody will come to study this case because it's so difficult. So I think we'll go to case 77, so don't worry. That's the story, right? We're going to go to 77. Yeah.

[85:53]

But another part of me feels like I should just say, well, you know, I just feel like we should work on this case some more. And maybe the class will be very small. On the other hand, we could advertise about a special advertising report saying that almost everybody's dropped out of the koan class because this case is so difficult, so we need new recruits. Please, bodhisattvas from ten directions, come and help us because the whole class has run away to the happy land of no koans, or at least to case 77. Maybe we could have two classes. One that starts with 77 and one that starts with 76. And you could choose. If you're on different nights, you can go to both, right? Yeah, that's what I was thinking, different nights. But I think we would have to make special advertisement for the one that stays on 76, because some of you might not go to both nights, right?

[86:53]

Well, Liz is certainly not going to come. The class that goes to 76, in that class, will you start working your way back toward one? No, no. We're just going to stay with 76 for five or ten, maybe ten minutes will be enough. And everybody will demonstrate that they no longer have any attachments to understanding the case, and they're perfectly at ease. Or those who are still trying to attach and understand it are completely settled with their suffering. And that may be enough for this case. And then because it's enough for this case, we can study other things about this case, because there's a bunch of stuff that remains to be dealt with here. But we're in so much pain, we've got to settle down before we can even look at this stuff because we're kind of like vibrating. Some of us are vibrating in agony. So our vision has come with blurry. Right, Liz? Yeah, but I just want to say, last week I thought it was fine.

[87:57]

Yeah. And that's the strange thing about this case. Last week it was a different case than this week. So maybe next time it would be an entirely different case. Yeah. And should new people really be able to skip this? That's the amazing part. I think that should be like the entrance fee of new people. They have to start on this case. Yeah. And we'll tell him beforehand. Spread the word. Maybe we could start studying it in dark. Yeah. I think we already lighted it. Yeah, it is. It is. This is very... You shut the lights on. But it's more sophisticated. Okay. Actually, if people read ahead to 77, I'm happy to stay with 77. So please, you know, please take care of this case because nobody else will.

[89:03]

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