We've been studying case 73 last week, right? And it says, a monk asked Saushan, what is it when morning clothes are not worn? And then Saushan said, Today, Salshawn's filial piety is fulfilled. This is a little different from that other story that we talked about last time, that Erwan asked about. Remember that one? Want to read that one, Erwan? Yes. Dengshan asked Yunzhu, a great incorrigible kills his father and mother.

[01:01]

Where is the filial care? Yunzhu said, this for the first time fulfills filial care. That's enough. Thanks. For now, just at one... This isn't... In the story we talked... In that story, the teacher is asking his disciple. Okay? Dengshan is Yunzhu's teacher. So the teacher is asking the disciple... what's it like when an incorrigible kills her parents, right? And then this disciple says, for the first time, he fulfills his filial duty. He fulfills his filial devotion. So we talked about that, right? Remember how we talked about that? Remember, Betsy? And what's the next line?

[02:06]

This is a man whose filial duty is fulfilled and is falling down drunk. Now, so then the teacher says this. He says, this is a man whose filial duty is fulfilled and who is falling down drunk. The teacher didn't say it, it's just in the commentary. The commentator said it. Oh, the commentator says it. It's interjected. And then? And then Dongshan said, in the wild forest that meets the eyes, free through the years. In the wild forest that meets the eyes, free through the years. Okay, so we discussed, and Liz mentioned something like So Dungsan is speaking of this incorrigible, this person who can't learn, who kills his parents. And so what about that?

[03:12]

And the disciple says that filial duty is fulfilled. Is this scene being saved for Stuart? Yes. Grace, there's a seat right there if you want. I dropped my stuff back there. Does anybody want that nice seat there? Somebody left something here. You got a nice seat. Do you like that one instead? Well, yeah, but maybe somebody else would like it. Does anybody else want that seat? So... And then... The commentator, this is an interjected line, is that right? The commentator says this is a person who is falling down drunk. Anyone else? This is a man whose filial duty is fulfilled and is falling down drunk.

[04:14]

He repeated the part about the filial duty being fulfilled. Yeah, so the commentator interjects what I just said, and then Dongshan says... Just a second, though. Did the commentator repeat the business about the... Yeah, the commentator says, this is the man whose filial duty is fulfilled and is falling down drunk. Right. Now, is he referring to the person, the incorrigible, or is he referring to Yunzhu? I thought he was referring to Yunzhu. He did? What do you think, Liz? Incorrigible? Yeah. It could be either, right? Or it could be Dungsan. Yeah. So, and then Dungsan says this thing about in the wild forest, Yes. Doshan said, in the wild forest that meets the eyes, free through the year.

[05:19]

We didn't discuss that line, did we? Well, Elizabeth, what do you think of that line? Would you say it again, Edward? In the wild forest, Doshan said, in the wild forest that meets the eyes, free through the year. Dr. Draper was saying to me, Ms. Ballinger, I thought, To me, it forms the same thing. How so? It means life is arising, it means not separate. The same thing as dependent co-arising. It's another way of saying dependent co-arising. And? And then experiences of wildness and freshness and eyes and just everything always being fresh and just moving you. Right. And then what's this business about free through the years? Is that like going and being falling down drunk? Yes. Does that make sense to everybody?

[06:24]

Is it free through the years or free... Or it could be a breeze through the years. I know, I know. I just said it could be a breeze through the years. Well, it sounds to me like, to me, it's like a liberation that you don't move back from, so that if something's happened, it's shit that once you freed yourself from, it's how I need You can get caught again, but there's some profound liberation that happens if one's had the experience of not being tied to one's parents, either to mourn them or to fulfill a duty towards them. So there's this idea that if we can be free of fulfilling our duty to our parents, we fulfill our duty to our parents.

[07:36]

Some people run away from their parents. Yes? Well, do you think, in this case, that parents includes everything that gives birth to you? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. And if you're bound to something, you must feel some separation. If you're bound to or fleeing from. If you're bound to or fleeing from. If you're fleeing from, you're bound to. So if you flee from what you think is separate and you're bound to what you think is separate. Right, Lisa? Right, Brad. And in particular, we're bound to what we feel separate from, and we feel separate from what gives us birth. We feel separate from what gives us birth, so then we feel bound to what gives us birth rather than being born from what gives us birth.

[08:48]

We feel bound to what gives us birth. Don't we? Isn't that our problem? Isn't that your problem, Bert? Yeah. That's one of them. You have some other ones? But I think the other ones are pretty much derivative of that, don't you think? That's kind of a... That's like a root problem. The problem is... Again? Did you miss the whole thing? Ah, that's gone. But it's on tape. So what gives us birth? That's the question. What gives us birth? Take a guess, what gives you birth? You do. Let him guess, okay? You can use those answers, but they're wrong. What gives us birth as a separate I?

[10:01]

No, that's not a separate I. Just a regular gives you birth. A roll in the hay. Yeah, right. So, in other words, everything that's happening gives you birth. Right? That's what gives us birth, everything that's happening. Not everything, you know, that's not happening, Not a little bit, but everything that's coming up gives us birth. That's the enlightened side of it. And the things that give us birth, we have the ability to feel separate from, and then when we feel separate from them, we can reject them or cling to them. Either way, we're bound to them because we feel separate. Now, the main story is a little bit different, though, a little bit different.

[11:10]

Because in this story, the teacher starts off by asking the question, the student asks the question first. And the student says, the monk says, how is it when morning clothes are not worn? And Saushan says, today I fulfill my duty. my duty to my ancestors. It's a little different, kind of a slightly different story. The teacher's saying, today I do. Now, I don't know offhand what that's got to do with the first line. Do you? Maybe he saw that he wasn't wearing morning clothes. What? Maybe he saw that he wasn't wearing morning clothes and asked him, how is it? Yeah, that's a possibility.

[12:13]

That's a possibility. Or maybe somebody else wasn't wearing morning clothes. Or maybe the monk wasn't wearing morning clothes. Maybe somebody wasn't wearing morning clothes. So, let's take the case of the monk wasn't wearing morning clothes. comes up not in morning clothes, and his parents just died, and he's not in morning clothes, and he says to this teacher, how is it that I'm not wearing morning clothes? And then the teacher says, today I, not you, I have fulfilled my filial duty. Like that story? Maybe he didn't need morning clothes. Pardon? Maybe he didn't need morning clothes. Who didn't need them? The teacher. Well, yeah, maybe the teacher didn't need them. Right. But we're talking about the monk wasn't wearing them. The way I'm telling the story now, the monk's not wearing them.

[13:16]

Well, maybe it was to demonstrate that you don't need to wear morning clothes. Maybe it was who's demonstrating. The teacher. Maybe he's demonstrating that you don't need to wear them. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. We had discussed previously that no monks wore morning clothes. Probably rarely did they wear morning clothes. So the reason they did that is because their vow, we had discussed the Chinese tradition of wearing morning clothes and going back to your home to engage in the process of mourning. about the three years, what you had said. That's what Andy said. Right, someone said that. And that the monks don't do that because they've taken vows as monks. And so their filial duty is expanded.

[14:19]

Their filial duty is somewhat expanded, you could say? Yeah, it goes beyond their direct immediate family. So it has something to do with what you're saying. In terms of what he says, he says, I feel my filial duty. He's taken it valid as a monk. And in that, there is maybe the possibility of fulfillment. Great. Yeah, that's... That's conventionally understood in the Buddhist Sangha to be the case in China. But anyway, I was trying to get at that there's various possibilities about who was or was not wearing mourning clothes. and its various possibilities about who the monk was wondering about. The monk could have been wondering about himself, could have been wondering about the teacher, could have been wondering about some other monk in the monastery, or he could have been wondering about all the monks in the Buddhist Sangha that don't wear mourning clothes, could have been asking all that.

[15:35]

Right? But then the teacher doesn't say, we, or you, Now fulfill it. He said, now I fulfill it. That's a little bit different. He didn't say, not talking about the other guy who doesn't wear it or the people who don't wear it. He said, I don't. I. Do you think the monk was lacking faith? Do you think the monk was lacking faith? I don't... Do you see some sign of lack of faith there? I can't see it. Do you see it? I do. You do? Yeah. How? What do you see? I see a question. You see a question? Yes? He asked the teacher if... What did he ask the teacher? How is it when I'm not wearing morning clothes?

[16:38]

Well, he didn't say I, did he? But you said it. Huh? You changed the phrase. No, I didn't. I said, Saushan says today, Saushan, which, if Saushan's talking, that's the same as saying I. Okay. Saushan said, Saushan. The monk didn't say I. Well, the monk asked Saushan. Yes. How does it, when I'm not wearing wooden clothes? Well, it doesn't say that, though, does it? How is it when the morning clothes are not worn? Right. We don't know he's talking about himself, do we? We don't know that. Right. What I was saying was if he was talking about himself or he wasn't talking about himself, if he was talking about some other monk or all the Buddhist monks or even talking about the teacher, in all those cases anyway, you could look at each case and then tune into Saushan saying, for the first time, I fulfill.

[17:43]

No, not the first time. Today, right now, I fulfill filial duty. The teacher's talking about himself fulfilling filial duty right now while he's talking to this monk. Right? This is a little different thing here, I think, I feel, from the other stories. Yes? Yes? Well, I was just going to say, maybe Xiaoshan means that the monks aren't wearing morning clothes or people aren't wearing them, that his job is done or that he did the job. Yeah, that's right. That's what he might mean. He might mean the fact that I've got you guys sitting here without morning clothes on, I'm successful at taking care of my parents. And not only that, but I've got you people noticing that you're not wearing morning clothes and asking me questions about it. And that's even better. And so today, actually you haven't been wearing morning clothes for quite a while, but today, now you're asking about it, so today I'm a success.

[18:46]

But before we go any further, I just want to mention that what I'm up to here is trying to prompt you to imagine what's going on here. And the reason I want you to try to imagine it is to see if you can imagine yourself in this story. And then imagine what's so good about being in this story. Partly I'd like you to decide which story you think this is before you tune into it. And another thing I'd like to bring up is that I don't know if this story actually happened like this.

[19:52]

I don't know if this conversation, even, of course it was in Chinese, I don't know if the original Chinese story ever happened. Some people may think that these stories are actually literally what happened in those monasteries between those practitioners. Some people may think that, but I don't know that. And some people who have been thinking about this quite a bit are pretty sure that they did not happen like this. They think it's very unlikely that the stories happened just like they're written down here. And some of those people who feel that way are people who have thought about these stories and studied them the most and done the most research in these stories and studied these cases the most carefully are the same people who are of the opinion that it seems very unlikely that these stories ever happened the way they are here.

[21:01]

And some of those same people have the theory that these stories are taken care of not because they actually are even being proposed to be about what actually happened, but that they're very useful for us to feel that we're actually in the living presence of these beings, of these ancestors, who we think are our ancestors, our spiritual ancestors. So these stories are not necessarily what happened, but these stories may be some of the best ways to be with our ancestors, to actually be back in that time with them. But have it be now. So I would like, I invite you and encourage you to try to understand and read these stories as a way for you to be actually in the time and the place that these ancestors actually live.

[22:22]

Please stand up. What's your name again? Ricci. Ricci. Can you suggest an effective method for killing your parents? Because I don't think mine really want to die. An effective method for killing your parents? Yeah. Well, again, what we're talking about is for you to... What do you call it? For you to, first of all, be aware of your bond to your parents and be aware of how in that bond you feel you're separate from them. And for you to see through that separation and to see there's no separation, that's what some of us are suggesting it means to kill your parents. And if you can do that with your parents so that you understand that you are nothing separate from your parents, then you're really a good daughter.

[23:36]

Because that's what your parents most want, is for you to become free of being bound to them and be free of thinking you're separate from them, because that makes you unhappy. So what you need to do is you need to look at your separation from all of us. And the separation that's most difficult to study, I think, is with your parents. Now, if you have children, that would be equally difficult for you to look at that one. But that's like, you know, especially for a mother, it's really difficult to look at that one. Your partner's not easy either. Looking at how you feel about your partner that way, it's not easy either. No, it's not. It's not. As a matter of fact, it's actually quite difficult even to look at your partner. Yeah. Even though, of course, you really want to, and you make a big effort to get someplace where you could see them, when you actually get there, you kind of want to look someplace else.

[24:46]

Like, you know, at the answering machine. Stand up. Would you please? Way up there. There you go. Thank you. So it's... The monk is asking Saushan this question, right? So... Yeah, in the... Right. So I had the thought that maybe... He's asking Saushan, thinking that maybe Saushan isn't fulfilling his filial duty, maybe his parents' duty. And coming back, the monk, he's asking, so how is it that you're not fulfilling this duty? Yeah, that could be the case. That's what it seems to me. That could be the case, okay. Then what happens? Then he says, well, I am. Basically, well, what do you mean?

[25:49]

I am fulfilling my filial duty, which is what we've been talking about. And so how does he fulfill his filial duty? I don't know. I didn't say it. Yeah, so that's what I'd like you to tell me. That's what I'd like you to imagine. How is he fulfilling his filial duty? He's taking care of himself. And what about the monk? And he's taking care of the monk, too. How is he taking care of the monk? teaching the monk that he's fulfilling his filial duty. Is the monk learning? I don't know. You don't? Probably. Probably? Yeah. What makes you think he is? Well, he heard what he said. What did he say? He said, I'm fulfilling my filial duty. And then what did the monk say? Did he say it after? Yes. What did he say? After. How is it, after? What do you think he said? There's a whole group of people here. Would you help him out? He's lost. He's a lost person.

[26:49]

There's two lost monks here. I mean, he was telling him, by teaching him, that you don't have to wear the morning clothes to fulfill your filial duty. Well, like, my very intention, geoparic, is that we don't have to put clothes on our heirs and all that. Right, we figured that part out. But then what? And then after that. So maybe the monk understood? Did the monk understand, do you think? Is the second question that the monk asked based on understanding that, you think? Oh. Yeah, well, you see, if you're going to tune in, you have to decide which station it's going to be.

[27:51]

He's definitely elucidating what it means to fulfill the duty. Pardon? Because he's basically asking what happens after you, if you understood. So you think the monk understood? I think he needed further clarification. Ah, you think he somewhat understood. Yeah. Okay. And then he asked, according to your imagination, he asked me for further clarification? Yes. And then Sasyan, did he clarify it more? Are you the monk, by the way? Am I the monk? Yeah. Do you want further clarification, or do you understand and you're not like him? I just don't care. You don't care? Did the monk care? The monk cared. Um, I'm not sure. You're not sure? I'm not sure. Do you care whether he cared or not? I'm not sure. You're not sure. Are you like that monk or not? You're not sure. Are you like Saoshan? Oh, I definitely think I'm working on the morning clothes issue.

[28:54]

You are? Okay. Are you like in the suburbs of this story? Are you in the mid-downtown of this story? Well, I think I've been... Paddling in the stream for a while. Yeah. Are you ready to enter the story? Are you ready to enter the story? To enter it? Yeah. Or don't you care? Half of me says I don't care. Half of me knows that I am in the story already. Okay, now what about that other half? If you're in the story already... and not caring whether you're in it. Is that your life? You're in your life, but you don't care whether you're in it, even though you are? That means you're confused, which is where I am. Yeah, so do you want to, like, be unconfused and enter the story or not? If that's the point. If what's the point? To be unconfused. Well, do you want to be unconfused? That's what I'm asking. Do you want to be confused or do you want to be unconfused? It's up to you.

[29:54]

I think it would be nice to be unconfused, but I'm not sure that's the point. Well, you know, You get to say what the point is. This is your class. I think the point is... If you want this class to be about being unconfused and entering into the actual reality of these stories, then that can be what the class is about. If you want it to be about that, it's up to you. I'm not forcing you to be unconfused. You can be unconfused if you want to, but I'd like you to say, okay, I want to be unconfused or I want to be confused. Let's decide what thing you want to do and then we'll be that way. Our imagination is, so let's try unconfused. Do you want to be unconfused? He's not sure. Are you telling me he's not sure? That's what it sounds like. He said that several times. What I'm asking him is what does he want? And if he tells me he's not sure about that, are you telling me you're not sure what you want? What I'm not sure of is that there's any one answer that... Oh, no, you don't have to worry about that.

[30:56]

We're not into that. We're not into one answer here. Let's try and confuse. Pardon? Let's try it. Yeah, so unconfused means you decide what you want and you decide what you think the story means and that's what you work on. You put yourself out there with what you want and what you're going to try out here. Okay? Okay. If you want to be unconfused, then you take a position and you say... you say, I do want to take a position. Or you say, I don't want to take a position. Which is a position. That's right. That's why I think, you know, I'm encouraging you to take a position, but if you don't want to, then that's a position. Right? So, that's fine with me. I'd like to take a position. Pardon? Okay, we've got another guy that wants to take a position. So... What's your name again? Bill.

[31:56]

Bill, did you decide you'd like to be unconfused? I want to reflect on this for a little bit. Take your time. Take your time. But see, what I'd like you to do is if you tell me that you do want to take a position, that will help. Achieve, guess what? Clarity. Yes. If you don't want to take a position, it's going to be pretty hard, you're going to stay confused. Because anybody who doesn't want to take a position is confused. Anybody have any problem with that? Anyone who does not want to take a position is confused. Right. It's a position. Because it's a position. It's incoherent to not want to take a position is incoherent. In other words, you're confused if you don't want to take a position, because that's a position. I guess it depends on what you define as position. It does depend on that, but basically what I define by position, I'm using the conventional word, which means you take a place.

[33:05]

Position means you put yourself in a place, which in fact you have done. And if you don't want to do that, then you're confused, because you're saying, I don't want to do what I'm doing. So everybody in this class actually has taken a position. And now I'm trying to define the position more. Everybody has their understanding of this story right now. And there's not one understanding of this story. There's several. Maybe there's almost as many understandings as there are people in this class. Some people's understanding might be quite similar. But the point is, let's figure out what your position is, OK? Then we can be clear. And when your position is clear, we can interact. And then you can see what it's like to interact from your actual position and from clarity. And that's not one answer. The point is to become free of, in this case, to become free of your parents. Yeah, that's what we're trying to do. But you can't do that unless you take the position of being the child and see what that feels like and say what you're up to there.

[34:12]

That's why I'd like to let me know when you're ready. This taking a position thing is terrifying. Terrifying is one word you could use, but it's certainly you're endangering yourself if you take a position. If you don't take it like we were talking about last week, weren't we talking about decoys? Yeah. See, huh? Yeah. So you come into the class and you put a decoy out there. You put somebody in your chair and you sit, you kind of like sit somewhere behind the chair, you know, get ready to leave. You put this person in a chair so that's not, you feel like you're safe. But actually, it's good to like actually take your seat and not be a decoy but actually be yourself right there and realize you have taken a position and try to figure out what your position is and then... Stand up and tell us. I have settled for the moment on a position. What is it, Bernie? Let's hear it. Bernie. Let us assume that, as I said the day before, the monk and his teacher have had a discussion about a problem, something that's bothering the monk.

[35:21]

And as a result of that discussion, the monk was able to talk to his mother, talk to his daughter, And for some reason, it worked really well. But maybe the monk isn't totally enlightened or whatever. And sure, that worked nicely, but still some feelings of anxiety. How about the next time? How about after fulfilling the filial duty? What am I going to do the next time? Is this still going to work? What do I do? And Kaoshan just says, so let's fall down prong. That's all he says. Well, after the first time of telling the teacher, let's say the next day, after the interaction, the teacher, the monk tells the student that, you know, hey, it went well. In other words, how is it when the morning clothes are not warm? I'm not clear what you're... You've got this monk telling the student? No, the monk is the student. Okay. And there's the teacher who... Yeah.

[36:23]

Yeah. So what is it now? The monk says what? To whom? Let's say after something has happened with the monk or the student. Like, I called my mother on the phone and it seemed to work out well. The monk or the student? What do you mean, the monk? The monk is the student. Right. Yeah. I just tend to use teacher, but here it's monk and . And the student goes and reports this to the teacher. The monk reports it to Sao Shun. The student reports it to Sao Shun. And he says it in such a way. And the story is written so that it can accommodate an array of scenarios. Right. And which scenario are you taking the position? The one that I had just fallen into, that's worked for me now, is that you and I had an interaction. I then went and talked to my mother, called her. I love that they call. Right. And It worked out really well.

[37:24]

Yeah. And I report back to you. And what do you say to me? I say, how is it in the morning when those are not warm? Okay. And where does that come from after this nice conversation with your mother? What do you mean by that? By the way, thanks for calling your mother. And what do you mean by that? Actually, I'm just going to answer that and say I'm a success. Today, my filial duty is fulfilled because you called your mother And what you say to me... I got you to call your mother. Today, Salchon's filial duty is fulfilled. Well, I didn't... I always call my mother, but, you know... But this time I'm part of the deal. Yeah, this time something worked really nicely. Okay, so now what... How come... Why didn't you just come back and say, well, I called my mother, thanks for asking me to do so. Why do you tell me... How come you're saying... That would not have accommodated an array of scenarios.

[38:28]

Right, so what does business have you accommodating? Actually, that is what I'm saying to you. What are you saying? I'm saying to you, how is it when morning clothes are not worn? I know, but I don't understand where that's coming from. Help me tune in to what your motivation is for saying that to me. Is it weird that things are going well with your mom and your daughter? Well, I shouldn't have put those, because the similar thing can happen with my daughter. But let's leave that one out. I mean, there's problems all the time. And there's all sorts of scenarios that enter, the darndest things. I'm trying to, you know, tighten your position. I feel good that you've now done this wonderful thing, partly on my encouragement. And now you're coming back to... and perhaps somewhat poetically tell me how it was to call your mom.

[39:31]

And you're telling me because I'm your friend who kind of like is working with you to help you have a good relationship with your mom, right? Yeah. I mean, that's really what's happening, isn't it? And to me it's... I'm supporting you to fulfill your piety, aren't I? Absolutely. So you come back and you tell me how successful we are, right? And the way I... And you say it that way, but how come you say it that way? How is it when mourning clothes are not worn? It's just the most perfect thing I could say to you. I know, I know, but tell me about it. What did your brother do? Tell me so that they can understand how that happened, how you're coming up with that. Tell us about the creative process. Can you tell us? Maybe you can't. Maybe it's just the most perfect thing you could say and you can't give us any access to where that came from. Maybe that's the question. But maybe you can. Maybe you can tell us something more about where that came from. I have an easier time explaining it with what you say back to me.

[40:33]

You say, today is Salchon's filial duty. It's fulfilled. I know, but I'd like to have my feet in the ground on the first one. Then the next step will be more, you know, it'll be like, it'll be better. I mean, it'll be more whole-bodied, you know, if you can get us tuned in to where this is coming from. Next time, tell them how to feel, Ernest. Or yeah, just say, maybe you can say that. I'm not going around feeling badly all the time because I can't get along with my mother. And I have just had, I was up close. And it wasn't too scary up close. Say that part again. I'm not going around. I'm not going around with morning clothes on. I'm not going around feeling bad about. About a dead relation with my mother. You're not doing that. No. You're not going to do that. Right? I'm feeling alive. You're not going to do that, right?

[41:34]

What are you going to do? You're going to have a real live relationship? What happened, Vernon? What happened is... is... is... I saw that I still don't have it exactly. I'm starting to worry about how would that fulfill me. Don't get up there yet. Stay with this thing about your mother and what kind of relationship you're going to have with your mother. So you're on this, are you going to have... It's a free relationship. And is it alive? Yes, I feel that it's alive. Yes. So it's really alive, right?

[42:36]

So then what do you say if it's alive? I say, how is it when one corpse is not one? That makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah. Maybe that can be your position, that for you, that's where that kind of talk would come from, is that you have a living relationship with your mother, not a dead relationship. And what's a living relationship? Did you say free? Did you say free? Yeah, free. And free means what? Free... For example, a few examples of freedom with your mother. Free means I'm not going to erase the message on my answering machine just because she wants me to, because she doesn't like that message. She doesn't like that message on my answering machine. I like it, yeah. And you know, my mother doesn't like mine either. Can you guess what she doesn't like about mine?

[43:38]

Do you ever call me, Vernon? Not your home. Don't call, but anyway. If anybody ever called me, can you imagine what my mother doesn't like about my message? It's not very friendly. What does it say? What is it saying? Oh, it's too singing? No, it's not singing. That would be the message that you would ask me to change. It's too slow. It's too long. It takes her too long. She has to wait a long time for it. That's what my mother doesn't like about mine. It discourages all of these salespeople. My mother doesn't like that it's so long. So I told her she can just press the star and go right past it, but somehow... But I can sit down... Let's go back to the living relationship, okay?

[44:40]

The living relationship is she wants you to change it, you don't want to, and is that a living relationship with your mother? Yes, because I can sit down at a cup of coffee with her and she says, Rusty, why don't you get rid of that message? Yeah, that's my name. Because I had... She remembers that, so she calls me Rusty. But I can... And I can just, I can smile at her when I say, no, I'm not going to read that message or maybe I won't say anything at all. Or you can do something else. But anyway, you have a living relationship at that time. It's an example of the life of the relationship. So then... And not hide from her. Yeah, that's another one. Right. And we could go on about this, but basically now we understand the reason why, some of the reasons for why you would come back after my instruction to you. and you come back to me and tell me that morning clothes, you know, you ask me, you know, about what it's like when morning clothes aren't worn.

[45:47]

Okay? And then I say, now, my filial duty is fulfilled. Today. Right now. Okay? Does that make sense? Absolutely. Now, what's the next perfect thing to say? You know, I'm not absolutely an enlightened person yet. And how could I fulfill the filial duty? What I'm thinking along the lines here are... If this is an unenlightened question, this is in this phase, we've got into unenlightenment now again, even though we were... Yeah, I've had to hesitate. We had this great moment, but... Yeah, but now we're slipping? Yeah, we're slipping. Okay. That's like at Bilbo, a little slip here, a little clarification. We were doing fine there for a while. I was a success, but now I'm not a success anymore, right?

[46:51]

My student has slipped. Well, no, he hasn't. Okay, fine. What is happening now in this second? He is having a slight anxiety attack about it. You know, what do I do to maintain this absolute state of enlightenment? Whoa, that was happening. That would make sense. I'm a success, but now you want to continue to be a success. Yeah, I want to hold on to this. Right. So then you say, what next? You say, what next? Yeah, what next? That's what you say when you're a success. Then you say, if you're a success and you can't face it and let it go, then you say, what's next? Yeah, I like this. What should we do next? Yeah. This is great, right? Now what? You know what I mean? It's like true love. We can't stand it, so what's next? It seems like what happens is back to what the introduction is talking about, where you become constrained and then unjustly punished and become a ghostly curse.

[47:56]

You go back right in. So, now we got a problem. One of us, and you're taking the rap, right? I'm taking the rap. One of us is trying to cop out here and trying to figure out what's next. So then I, or Saushan anyway, gets to say the wonderful line, what? I love to get fond of them. So I'm not going to help you hold on to this thing. You know, if I wasn't drunk, I probably just wouldn't be able to help myself. So I probably play into this thing, right? That's right. And if it's short, you've already got that thing and you're bringing that back. I'll have to get drunk real fast, so I can't help you. Now let's see if that works for you. Okay? What do you want? I just thought you'd mention something. You thought you'd mention something?

[48:57]

Yeah. Why don't you stand up and mention it? Okay. There's a case that somebody asked Thou, Sean, you know, I'm poor and miserable. I'm poor and miserable? Will you please help me? Yeah. And Thou, Sean said, Joe, he said, what? You've already drank three cups of Hundred Houses wine, and you're still begging for more. Uh-huh. Ah. What do you want? It's a wonderful time to stand up and read it. Can you turn your back on me when you read it? Just for, you know, variety. This is a note on the back, Robe of Mourning. Robe of Mourning refers to nirvana, or the absolute state in a narrow sense involving defecated passions. The Bodhisattva does not wear the Robe of Mourning in the sense of not remaining in the absolute state of individual liberation, not making extinction a final realization.

[50:05]

Interesting take, yeah. In nirvana. Not remaining in nirvana. Back into samsara. Not wearing the robe of mourning is being in samsara. So, when we're not wearing the robe of mourning, when we're not staying in nirvana, we have fulfilled filial piety. What next? What happens after that? The sun goes down. The sun goes down. Now, if somebody wants to talk about this poem.

[51:21]

Yes. I'm also very interested in talking about the poem, but I was hoping for a little clarification on the way to it. Just the first case in the commentary. Pongwan responds, how was it before Nyoto saw the fourth patriarch and fourth ancestor, and Pongwan said, a spirit shined beside the road. All who see it raise their fists. And I'm having trouble understanding what the gesture of raising fists would be. And usually you think of that as being angry, but that doesn't seem like it fits with the image. You want to know what this means? What the gesture of raising a fist before a spirit shrine. Oh, I see. What it might mean as a kind of ritual move.

[52:25]

Yes. Why would someone raise a fist before a spirit shrine at the road, beside the road? Well, could it be a Chinese ritual gesture? It's apt to be. Not as a... Victory. Victory? It could be, but it also could be a ritual gesture, not an insult or a sign of anger. What's it an expression of? What does it express? I mean, it's easy to understand it as an expression of anger, but I don't understand what it is an expression of. Okay, what's this an expression of? What's that an expression of? No. And before the shrine, what does that express? To match those coming together.

[53:29]

You agree? This part and this, I think, is a, I would think it would express an evocations. Evocations? Shrine, yes. Calling for the spirit of the shrine. Okay, what does this express before the shrine? Huh? Anything. Evocation? Yeah. Does it evoke the spirit? I don't, it doesn't. How about this one? That one did, didn't it? No? Sorry. No? How about this one? Why don't you try? Try it. I'll do the fist. Did it evoke the spirit? I don't have a feeling for it.

[54:35]

No. Thanks for talking about it. You're welcome. I think it could be for protection. Protection of what? They're spirits, protections from the spirit. Protections from the spirit. They're not at rest. You want to go to a shrine and get protection from the spirits? No, if I'm walking past... You didn't know one was going to be there, and out of defense you'd go like this? Yes. Yes, Grace? Well, the thing about it that's so, at least to me, so clear is it's closed fist. And I think it closed fist with all of this being protected. I mean, that's where I think Nina would be right. Keeping the energy in. It's not putting the energy outward. It's not necessarily in communication with. It's not necessarily what? In communication with.

[55:36]

It's a boundary stance, I think. It's a boundary stance. How about that story, the boundary stance? It feels to me like sticking my head out and offering my head. I'm saying, when I did it, I felt like I'm here. And immediately, I'm here. Do take me. That's what happened. Yeah, like an offering. Yes? I have a similar feeling. It feels more like kind of a combination of that and what Grace said of being closed, but just like, meet me here, and having this feeling of being closed, but like, here, meet me right where I am, even if I'm not open, and that it's fulfilled. It feels like that, yeah. Okay, so this is the answer to... This is an answer to, how was it before Newto saw the fourth ancestor?

[56:45]

Okay, Newto is one of the disciples of the fourth ancestor. How was it before he met his teacher? And the national teacher says, a spirit shrine beside the road, all who see it raise their fist. That's how it was before Newto before Oxhead met the fourth ancestor. And then the monk asked the national teacher, how about after seeing the fourth ancestor? And the national teacher says, in the house there is no Bayer. The holy family is not pious. Bayer is like a place where you, like a mound where you put the body to burn it. Bayer. Could it be that before he saw the fourth tantra, he was feeling separate from them, and then after he felt like he was worried, after he felt in line with them?

[57:58]

Before seeing what? Like when he went up to the shrine all the times before, when I thought of when grace was saying, like, close like this, that's like saying, okay, the spirit's out here, and then I'm here. Yeah. But this spirit's also inside, so maybe it's like trying to hold the spirit too close inside. The feeling of separateness. Trying to hold on to it too. Yeah, maybe so. Before he saw the fourth ancestor, he was like ordinary people when they walk by a shrine. Yeah, like feeling, okay, those spirits are out there. Yeah. So ordinary people, when they walk by a shrine, they do this thing. That's what he was like before meeting the fourth ancestor. Maybe he would have thought if he would have met the fourth ancestor. Yes? Well, another way of seeing it would be that when people go by the shrine, they announce their presence. So it's like putting your energy forward. Yes. And that's what he was doing. So he was receptive. If he hadn't been receptive, then the fourth ancestor wouldn't have become his teacher.

[59:03]

So he was already receptive before he met the fourth ancestor. He was able to meet him. And then after meeting him, how is it? It seems like after meeting him, there are no more shrines and no more, or everything's a shrine. One particular, let's see, everything's a shrine? Maybe that, yeah. So then when the ancestors die, you don't do funeral ceremony for them. There's no filial piety after meeting the fourth ancestor. Because they never die? Yes. What else? No separation. No separation. And we're going to have a living relationship, but it's kind of disgraceful. Chinese teacher told me that at funerals in China, they said to people, I don't know, cut their hands or make a lot of noise because almost you have to make a distinction between people who are still living in the conventional sense.

[60:33]

They want to make sure nobody gets confused about who is alive and who is dead. So they don't come and take the wrong person? It was kind of said to be the context of going over for life. So that fist raise is almost maybe that's making that section of boundaries necessary. Yes? What's the reference, and if it counts as anything too, that there's a reference to a whisk, a fist, a stab, or a shout? Well, the fist could be the fist that punches people. And there's also, what is it? There's a fascicle called Ten Directions, that Govind wrote about raising a fist. So raising a fist was an occasion for someone to become enlightened in the past.

[61:39]

A certain teacher raised a fist and it was occasion for, like, a needle, putting a needle in water was an occasion for realizing enlightenment. Raising a flag was an occasion. A whisk, oftentimes a whisk is like flipped. Somebody wakes up and a fist was raised and someone woke up. But in Afrikaans, I think it's saying... I can't remember exactly how it's said. It's saying the enlightenment was occasioned by raising a fist, raising a banner, putting in a needle or a shout. Those occasions, those pivotal opportunities where two people meet and awakening is realized, that the context in which this realization occurs is zazen. The fists are being raised all the time, but do people wake up every time that happens? Do they see the opportunity of awakening on this fist or this shout?

[62:43]

And so what Dogen's saying is that to use that opportunity, to be able to turn from one side to the other, that's offered by these staffs and fists and shouts and needles, depends on the function of zazen. So could that have anything to do with the reference, that way of thinking of it? And this, or is it completely different? I don't understand what you meant by that. The fist, before the fourth ancestor, the fist raised. I don't know when they passed a shrine. I think it's a different fist. The fist in those cases is a fist that was raised, that was an occasion for awakening. In this case, I think they're talking about when people do that. I don't think he's saying when people do that, that then there's enlightenment. When they go by a shrine, they raise their hand, that that's an occasion where they're all enlightened.

[63:47]

I think they're saying that before he met his teacher, things were like it is for people who go by shrines and raise their fist. So I think it's a different context. But in Pukan Zazenji, it's talking about basically that students and teachers interact and there's opportunities there, but both parties have to be ripe for there to be awakening. I mean, teachers raise their hands like this or like this or like this. Teachers put needles in water or bring a bowl for a student to put the needle into, okay? But if the teacher's not practicing zazen and the student's not practicing zazen, they don't realize it's the weight again. It doesn't hold the water at the right altitude.

[64:51]

The vibrations of the teacher's practice don't set at the right level of surface tension. Yes, Greg? I have this notion about the significance of the raised fist. I mean, this is something that's in current use By the way, it's pretty common. And it's used as a sign of belonging. Belonging? Recognizing a common cause. Like mail-binding? No, no, no. Like people on strike. People who are from types of class. You see them on strike, they want to support them. They raise their fist. It's a sign that you have a common cause. And, you know... I don't know whether you've ever heard of the Clapboards, a California organization. It's a sort of a parody of the Freemasons from the old coal mining days.

[65:56]

It's a sort of a semi-historical society. And this is the recognition. Recognizing each other? All right. The Spanish Civil War had the same word. The Spanish Civil War. They had the... When they were fighting, the Republicans were fighting the fascists. That's their symbol, and it's still very common. Yeah, I've seen... In Spain, in their slogan is, they will not pass. So it is... To me, it represents the solidarity... Uh-huh. ...and sort of a sense of belongingness. Was that a symbol for the Polish Solidary Movement? Yeah, that's right. It always goes with the struggle. Well, yeah, struggle. Encouragement.

[66:58]

Of course. Right? Encouragement. It's a kind of encouragement? Yeah. Also full of a lot of light when you're down. Uh-huh. It's kind of like a straightforward way to ask for what you want. It's just a question that is not complete. But if it's a relationship, like when he met the fourth ancestor, then it's a question in a relationship, which is not really an answer, but it's a lie. But this is before he met the fourth ancestor. This is not when he met the fourth ancestor. This is before. But before, I mean, before it is like that, it's wanting that. It's wanting it. Yeah. And that's where the gesture comes from. Not so many stories can talk about that. It's wanting a relationship, maybe, consciously. But form doesn't really have to change.

[68:01]

It's just the awareness of the relationship. It's a gesture of what kind of relationship you want? Yeah. Or it's a gesture of wanting a relationship? Wanting one. And after you have the relationship, then there's no buyer set up in the house? Is that how it is? There's no buyer set up in the house? You don't do a funeral ceremony for your dead ancestors? You're not pious? after you meet the fourth ancestor? So what? So what do they mean by no buyer, do you think? They're free from habit. Because before, people raised up their hands sort of out of habit to conform to the general practice, whatever it may have meant.

[69:07]

whether to announce your presence, whether to ask to be included, or whatever. But it was like religious, sort of religious, more of a dogmatic movement. And after that, then there's no need for a buyer, which is part of that habit. So you're saying that before meeting the fourth ancestor, Nyut'o was, he was like convention. Right. And after, he was free of convention. Right. Maybe I have Nyut'o confided with somebody else, but I thought I remembered that he went to visit the ancestor for confirmation of an awakening that he'd already had, and that when he met the ancestor, the ancestor confirmed him and said, why, yes, indeed, you're an awakening.

[70:15]

Do you remember that story, that way? No, a little differently. How do you remember it? Miao Chou was... had actually studied sutras and realized enlightenment, supposedly realized enlightenment with, I believe, the Nirvana Sutra. I'm not sure which exactly. But anyway, he was living on Nyoto Mountain near Nanjing, and the fourth ancestor was going along on a journey, and he noticed an omen in the heavens, and he thought, well, there's somebody really important up in this mountain. So he went up and asked some monks, who's up here who's a monk? And they said, you know, You know, who left home isn't a monk. He said, yeah, but you know, people are looking for somebody else up here. And he went up and he found Yoto living in his hut. And Yoto, you know, the story has a lot of twists in it, like there were wild animals around the hut, and as they approached the hut, the fourth ancestor pretended to be afraid, and Yoto said, oh, so you're still like that, huh?

[71:24]

And then they went into the hut, and there was a place where Nyoto sat in meditation, and while he was doing something, the fourth ancestor drew the word Buddha on the place where he sat. And when Nyoto saw it, he went, you know, oh, I can't sit on Buddha. And the fourth ancestor said, oh, so you're still like that, babe. Anyway, the story went on, and The upshot of the whole thing was that Nyoto said, gee, I'd really like to meet the fourth ancestor because I'd like to, you know, check him out. And the fourth ancestor said, well, actually, that's me. And so then they had an exchange, and through the exchange, Nyoto's full enlightenment was realized. But it's something like Stuart said, but the fourth ancestor kind of sought him out. I did have it mixed up.

[72:26]

I am confused with the overnight enlightened guest who went to see the fifth ancestor. Sixth. So sorry. Sixth. Two ancestors off in a mountain away. It's all in the same time. So now, before he met, okay, it was like when people go by the shrine and raise their fist. After, this is a national teacher talking right now, and after, no buyer was set up, and was it the pious, the whole family was not pious. Elizabeth? Elizabeth? I hear that the first part is being the fifth, is there something there to ward off, and then the second part being there's nothing to ward off. Yeah, or in the first one, you want to meet the fourth ancestor.

[73:26]

That's less clear for me. Well, if the man's going to ward something off, you think there's something other than you. Yes. Yes. So in the beginning, he thinks that the fourth ancestor is somebody other than him, and he wants to meet him. After he meets him, there's no other fourth ancestor. But they had to meet for him to realize that, I guess. So he was right to want to, but he didn't understand what he needed to find out. Yes, Lisa? What I like about the story that Andy told is that the teacher's already there. There's not many players they're wanting to meet, but the teacher's already sitting in the hut with Buddha written on the floor. Thank you for being so painstaking and answering my question.

[74:31]

You're all welcome. Lance? I also hear in this that, you know, Tulloch, he's the spirit. He was dead. He had some realization that there was something dead about him. So he was the spirit, but people still respected him. And they said this, and they went by. And then after meeting the fourth ancestor, he really became alive. And so there was no need to go by anymore because he was fully alive. The most famous symbol around that in the story of Nyoto is, of course, the fact that as he sat on the mountain, everyone thought he was a great holy man, and the birds would all come and draw flowers and check him out because he was so holy. But after he met the fourth ancestor, the birds never came around again. That was always confusing me. What? That confuses you? That the birds wouldn't come anymore.

[75:32]

You'd think they'd just be checking out all the time after that. And I know this shows fundamental ignorance. Well, no, it's not exactly that, Bernie. It's just that, again, this thing about no morning clothes means that there's no holiness, there's no trace of holiness. But there is a phase where there is a trace of holiness. And holiness is a very lovely thing. So even birds notice it and are happy about it. And flowers fall from the sky and all that. Holiness is great. But the main thing that you do with holiness is you go beyond it. Otherwise, holiness can turn into a bit of a problem. So like Dungsan in Yunju, right, the story we told before, Dungsan in Yunju, Yunju one time went away from his teacher up into a hut in the mountains, and he practiced meditation.

[76:43]

And instead of birds coming, Gods came and goddesses came and brought him excellent celestial morsels. And he ate that instead of regular monastic fare. And so he didn't need to come down to the monastery to get his food anymore because the devas were bringing him, the gods and goddesses were bringing him his nutrition. Okay? Anyway, Deng Xia noticed that Jung Ju was not coming down, so he sent a messenger and had him come down. And he said, where have you been? You haven't been coming for your meals. He said, well, I don't need to. They've been brought to me. And he said, I never thought this would happen to you. please chant the Heart Sutra and so on and go back up there.

[77:54]

So he went back up and the goddess didn't bring him food anymore. And I got the feeling it wasn't really a good thing. It's good, but it's relatively good. It's relatively excellent. It's excellent in the world, but we need to go beyond it. Otherwise it can turn into an illness. Beyond? Which is what, you know, not wearing morning clothes. But there is, you know, there is the phenomenon of holiness, which is It is an excellent thing in the world. And we just have to be very careful of it because it's so wonderful and so tempting to attach to and get stuck in. So now you're ready for the big poem?

[78:56]

We probably won't get through it in five minutes, but... I feel that we're better prepared for it now after having this class. Don't you think? Look at that first line. Look at that. The pure household has no neighbors. For long years staying in, sweeping, admitting not any dust. What does that sound like? Pretty holy. Pretty holy. Pretty holy. I mean, like, pretty darn holy. Not letting in any dust is pretty clean, wouldn't you say? And that means no physical dust, but it also means no mental dust either. And no mental dust means not only no dirty old thoughts or nasty little emotions, it means even beyond that, what?

[80:08]

No dualistic thinking. No dualistic thinking even. You know? That's a lot of work, sleeping all the time. Yeah, it's a lot of work. This is a hard-working, holy situation here. Okay? So that's what we've got here, some quite an attainment. But then what happens? When the light turns... This is kind of funny English. Somebody help me with this. Where the light turns, tilts the moon remaining at dawn. Or another way to say it would be turning the full brightness, turning from the full brightness. I think the way to construe this is the light turns as a compound noun, the light turns. The light turns. The turnings of the light. The turnings of the light.

[81:10]

You think that the turnings of the light tilts the moon? Pretty thick. The turnings of the light tilts the moon. Turning away from the brightness, the moon hangs low. The moon hangs below? Hangs low. Turning from the light, the moon hangs low. A crescent. Can the moon be with the left of the discrimination? And as the light turns on it, you just see what's left? It could be, but it says... Pardon? But then that's a discrimination to the sun. Right, that would be. Well, we'll leave ourselves with this particular little twister. for you to munch on. And if you want to start studying case 74, there's copies here for you.

[82:13]

And we'll try to finish the poem next week, finish reading the poem next week. What's the case ? What's the case? What's the other case? What other case? The one Erwin read? That's in the commentary. . It's on the second... See it? Can you find it? It's in the commentary on the case, on the main case. Which, again, to me is quite interesting, which case that Hongzhi chose to put in the book. He chose this one rather than that one. To me, it's kind of interesting. He chose the later one. So we have background in the sense that Dung Shan's talking to Sao Shan's brother, right?

[83:18]

But that's not the case. That's in the commentary. So we have that to help us understand the case and also help us understand the compiler of this book. the two main disciples of Dungsan are Yunzhu and Sausheng. In our lineage, our lineage comes through Yunzhu. Shaoshan's the big scholar. This name of the school uses his name and Dengshan. But I think really for us, the practice lineage comes to us more through Yunzhu, the one who went up in the mountains and got off track there being holy for a while. So we have in our own lineage

[84:22]

Some of our ancestors got hung up on being holy for a while. But they all recovered and became, you know, dirty again. Some of them never got clean in the first place. So we have a dirty, kind of stupid lineage that has occasionally slipped into intelligence and cleanliness and holiness. But it's all repeated well. The pool's always been good. Yeah, the pool's always been good.

[84:58]

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