Yesterday, Jane asked me a question and I asked her if she had been in the earlier part of the talk and it seems that the way I asked that question had some sarcasm in it or, I don't know, maybe some disrespect which someone felt. And so I accept responsibility for that and say I'm sorry if that question was in any way disrespectful. I feel forces coming upon me to continue to talk about what I have already been talking about,

[01:11]

even though I didn't intend to talk about what I was talking about so much already. But I just feel not exactly, well, sort of like to go deeper into it, but I kind of don't want to because it's such a heavy topic, you know, commitment and renunciation. And then I don't consider the self-fulfilling Samadhi such a heavy topic. I consider it to be an inconceivably wonderful topic, but I find that other people find it kind of heavy in the sense that they feel like, well, what's he talking about? Or, you know, get me out of here or something. So I feel it's kind of like bringing up this wonderful True Path to Enlightenment is kind of a difficult thing to hear about for some people. And then the way of entering into it through commitment to renunciation seems quite difficult. However, people are coming and saying that they do want to make commitments.

[02:20]

I don't feel like, although some people feel they're being hypnotized into it, which I understand, I don't mean to hypnotize you into these commitments. But I think about like this ceremony that's coming up this weekend, I mean tomorrow, and the name of the ceremony in Japanese is shukkei tokoro, which means leaving home and attaining the way. But also shukkei is just the East Asian way of saying renunciation. Leaving home is an image of giving up concern with gain and loss. You know, people who have homes often have homeowner's insurance, you know. They're very concerned with keeping their house in good condition, which is reasonable.

[03:22]

When you have a house, you should take care of it. But then you're kind of concerned with keeping it in good condition or doing home improvements, improving your home, gaining a better and better home for you and your family and friends, getting better and better blah-de-blahs for your house. This is normal for when you have a house, and trying to avoid losing your house or the house deteriorating. Such activities make it difficult to practice renouncing concern or gain and loss. It's not impossible to be fixing the house up without trying to gain something, but it's hard. Even taking care of a temple is hard to do without getting into like the view of gain and loss.

[04:22]

So the name of the ceremony is Leaving Home and Attaining Liberation, or Renunciation and Realizing Liberation. We have another ceremony which we do often at Zen Center, which is called Zaikei Tokudo, which means Staying at Home and Attaining Liberation. So this is for people who actually live in a house, but even there, it's possible in this tradition to attain liberation while living in a house. But there still has to be renunciation, but it's renunciation living in a house, which is in a way, as I just said, harder because of the activities of maintaining the house for you and your family.

[05:30]

Of course you can do it for the sake of all beings, but it's easier maybe in some ways to do it in a temple that doesn't belong to you, and a lot of other people are involved, and so on. And when some people go through an initiation like this, a renunciation initiation, I think other people watching have various feelings like, maybe I should do that too, or I'm glad they're doing it, and I don't have to, lots of feelings people can have when they see this, like, do I have to do that? Am I a real disciple of Buddha if I don't practice renunciation? Questions like that might arise, troubling questions like that.

[06:34]

And the people going through the ceremony also might be thinking, Am I really practicing renunciation? Am I a phony? Is this head-shaving hypocrisy? Kind of difficult questions might arise around such ceremonies. So anyway, this is kind of the background, I feel pressure to keep talking about this, and give another perspective on this whole process of the Buddha way. This is one another perspective, there's lots of different ways of looking at it, but so today the perspective I offer is that this so-called Zen school offers a bilateral commitment to renunciation,

[07:40]

and a structure of precepts entailing confession and repentance. So again, there's this commitment to a renunciation, and then also to a structure to kind of like give the renunciation a context to work in, a shared context. The commitment is done bilaterally, the renunciation is done bilaterally, and the precepts are set up bilaterally. And working together in this way opens on to this self-fulfilling samadhi. Again, you could think, Oh, I think I'd like to practice renunciation,

[08:54]

and then you might think, maybe I'd like to commit to practicing renunciation, and then there is like commitment to renunciation. Commitment to renunciation is not exactly the same as renunciation, but without committing to it, it may be difficult to realize. And one of the meanings of commitment is to officially confine, or officially consign to confinement, like commit someone to prison, or to a Zen monastery, or to a psychiatric facility, or drug rehabilitation clinic, etc. In this case, the commitment is voluntary, in other words, it comes from your own intention, but again, you don't do it unilaterally.

[09:57]

You feel the intention to make the commitment, and then you say, I'm ready to make the commitment, but someone else says, Are you ready to make the commitment? You're invited in a way, you're supported in a way, you're allowed in a way, but it comes from intention. It's not involuntary. You can't make the intention come by yourself, it comes through your relationship with all beings, like you meet some other people who are practicing renunciation, or the precepts, and you want to practice with them, or you like the way they're practicing. So in the communion with people who are doing various things in the world, in the communion with those who are not practicing precepts, and those who are, with the commitment, those who have committed to the precepts and those who haven't, in that interface, in that relationship,

[11:00]

the intention may arise in you to commit to renunciation, and then in the condition of renunciation, then commit to the precepts. So again, in the ceremony, the first step is renunciation, then the precepts. In other words, first you commit to giving up, trying to get something out of life, and you commit to try to avoid loss. You try to find this way of being which is like, as we say, has no outflows, that's undefiled by concern for gain and loss. So in that state, then you receive these practice forms, these precepts, so that when you enter into practicing the precepts, you've already committed to not try to get something from practicing precepts for yourself.

[12:02]

Of course you want the precepts to realize the Buddha way, but really, the best way to practice them is without any gaining idea. In other words, to practice the Bodhisattva precepts, to practice the Bodhisattva precepts. I vow to renounce practicing the precepts for anything other than practicing the precepts, because if I do it for anything but that, probably it's my own selfishness that's going to squeak in there. So I practice not killing to practice not killing. Now, I kind of think that practicing not killing is good, but amazingly I just do it because I think it's good not to get something. Renunciation. Do you wish to practice renunciation?

[13:05]

Renunciation. Yes. Do you wish to commit to it? Yes. Are you committing to it? Yes. You are committed to it? Yes. Now, would you like to receive some precepts to test your commitment on? Yes. And so on. And this is a communal practice of the commitment and a communal practice of the precepts. The communal practice of both helps to surface if there's any weakening of the renunciation in the practicing of the precepts. So sometimes people start practicing the precepts and they start attaching to them or thinking they're better than other people

[14:06]

or using them to hide from people, using them to separate themselves from people, using them to think they're better than other people, using them to separate themselves from other people. But since it's a communal practice, the other people who are practicing them are invited into hopefully skillfully pointing out or bringing up signs of concern for gain and loss around practicing the precepts. And not all of you maybe know the 16 Bodhisattva precepts that are transmitted in this temple. Would you post them on the board? The first precept is Buddha

[15:11]

or taking refuge in Buddha. The precept is returning to Buddha, the practice of returning to Buddha, which again is returning to the self-fulfilling Samadhi. The second thing is to return to the Dharma, which is the teaching that this Buddha is free of dust, that the Buddha is pure in the sense of being free of dust. Free of dust means the Buddha is free of being external to anybody. I take refuge in the teaching that this enlightenment is not separate from anybody. It doesn't mean everybody has realized it completely. It just means we've got this amazing realization which we are trying to return to. It's our true nature. And also we're trying to return to something

[16:19]

that's not separate from us. That's the second precept. The third precept is the precept of practicing together so that this peace and harmony can reign. And then the precept I want to point to which is kind of a tough one in a way, is the next three pure precepts. And the first pure precept is the precept which in Sanskrit is called Pratimoksha Sambara. It's the precept of disciplining ourselves in forms and ceremonies which are conducive to liberation. And these forms and ceremonies are often called the precepts of constraint. Or restraint. The first pure precept is sometimes again called the precept of constraint or restraint. It's a precept which is the practice of

[17:23]

all kinds of boundaries, limits, constraints, separations, confinements. It's a precept where we communally and bilaterally agree on certain limits, certain boundaries, certain confinements. Like we communally agree, seven-day sitting. We communally agree, start at this time, end at this time. Start at this time, end at this time. Do this in this place, not in that place. So we agree on these constraints. And again I feel it's really important that these aren't imposed upon us, that we share in the creation of these constraints. These constraints are called Pratimoksha.

[18:27]

These are the constraints which are conducive to liberation. These are the constraints which are conducive to freedom from constraint. They're the constraints through which we become free. But constraint is difficult. It's difficult even to set up. And once it's set up, well you know the problems you've had. We set this thing up, you agreed to come, you went to the orientation, and you still came. You heard about the schedule, and you voluntarily entered this confinement. And then some difficulty arose, for almost all of you I guess. I had difficulty. Maybe somebody didn't. That person we have to watch out for, I don't know who that is.

[19:32]

Maybe they're on crack. Voluntarily with others who are voluntarily, bilaterally, constructing confinements and constraints so that we can enter into, so that we can be initiated into the unconstructed, unconfined realm of complete freedom, the self-fulfilling samadhi of the school. Can you wait? A little bit? Is that okay?

[20:38]

And I kind of hate to read this poem, but since the situation has gotten so heavy, I think I'll read this poem for a little break in this very heavy discussion about this poem. This is called, How to Paint the Portrait of a Bird, written in French by the poet Jacques Prévert. Copies will be available from my assistant. First, paint a cage with the door open. Then paint something pretty, something simple, something beautiful, something useful for the bird.

[21:46]

Then place the canvas against a tree in a garden, in a wood, in a forest, on a farm. I added that farm thing. I confess. Hide behind the tree, without speaking, without moving. Sometimes the bird comes quickly, but she can just as well spend long years before deciding. Don't get discouraged. Wait. Wait years if necessary. The swiftness or slowness of the coming of the bird having no rapport with the success of the picture. When the bird comes,

[22:51]

if she comes, observe the most profound silence till the bird enters the cage. Then, when she has entered, gently close the door with a brush. Now the bird is in the cage and things can get difficult. Sometimes for a long time things are difficult. And if we can face the difficulty, I'm mad, this is me talking now, then we come back to the poem.

[23:53]

Paint out the bars of the cage one by one, taking care not to touch any of the feathers of the bird. Then paint the portrait of a tree choosing the most beautiful of its branches for the bird. Paint also the green foliage and the wind's freshness, the dust of the sun and the noise of insects in the summer heat. And then wait for the bird to decide to sing. If the bird doesn't sing, it's a bad sign. It's a sign that the painting is bad. But if she sings, it's a good sign, a sign that you can sign. So then take, so then very gently, pull out one of the feathers of the bird

[24:57]

and you can write your name in the corner of the painting, of the picture. So, you know, Zen Center is various things, but we can make Zen Center into a cage and then we can have the door open and birds can come in and we can close the door and then we sit together in this cage. And also we put some pretty things in Zen Center. We have some nice gardens here and nice bread. A clean Zen Do. Other attractive and simple things to encourage people to come into the cage. And then we close the gate, we close the door and then we... we have lots of experiences.

[26:02]

And we feel confined, and we feel confined by very many things. And then together we paint away these confinements. And enter the unconstricted, unconfined, unconstructed realm at the center of what was once a cage, of what was once the world. In the cage we... we... we may have trouble.

[27:07]

Some gaining ideas may still come up. And then the cage seems heavier than ever. And then we notice and we confess and repent. And then we notice again and we confess and repent. And little by little we so completely accept our confinement that we realize its emptiness. And also it's very important that we paint the bars of the cage together and clearly. So that the bars of the cage are mutually clear what they are. The clearer the confinement, the sharper and more penetrating the confinement,

[28:14]

the more complete the liberation. And if I would set up the confinement myself, I could feel like it was clear without it being clear to someone else. And if someone else has to clarify it, I may feel like it's being... it gets maybe too clear for me. I would like it a little less clear. But if I let myself have my confinement be less clear, then my liberation will not be clear. And other people actually do kind of want my confinement to be clear. They want theirs to be unclear. But I want theirs to be clear. And if they allow me to clarify their confinement very clearly, very thoroughly, then their liberation will be very clear

[29:17]

and very thorough. And if I allow you to co-author my confinement, my restraints, my boundaries, or our boundaries, if I let you contribute to the clarification, then my liberation will be clearer, sharper, and more thorough. I propose that principle to you to consider. I think that's probably enough for now. Federico? Could you speak up a little louder, please? Whether we're here at the Zen Center

[30:31]

or outside, you're just acknowledging, you're acknowledging here the constraints that we live with, or the suffering that we live with. You're bringing it to, you're bringing it alive and acknowledging. Yeah, well, yeah, you're bringing it alive and acknowledging. You're using the forms as a way to get the ego out in front, to get the sense of separation out in front. Yes? So, that leads to my question. You were going over the precepts. I was wondering if you could relate for us householders who don't live here, how we can relate to these 16 precepts. I know they're common in Buddhism, aren't they? So, many of you just have them for householders. And I'm wondering how we can have them for us. Well, again, in China,

[31:32]

Korea, I think throughout the Mahayana, the Bodhisattva precepts are the same for priests and lay people. Okay? And anyway, in this school, they're very much the same. I think the main difference in the ceremonies is not the precepts. But the commitment to the What am I going to say? What? The commitment to renunciation. Lay people must, householders must practice renunciation too, otherwise these precepts are just going to be used for gain and loss. Does that make sense? Frederick? The priests, they're trying to practice renunciation. The lay Bodhisattvas are also trying to practice renunciation.

[32:34]

But the priests are putting themselves in a situation where their renunciation can be tested on a daily basis where it's maybe easier to see if they're slipping in their renunciation and trying to get something out of the precepts. And sure enough, householders and monastics, householders and resident priests in monasteries do, of course, sometimes slip into a non-renunciate way of relating to life and even the precepts. If a lay person practices the precepts well and does it with the point of view of gain and feels like they gain something from it and they're happy about that, then this is off. If a priest practices the precepts well and feels, you know, like they gain something from that

[33:37]

and is happy that they gain something from practicing the precepts well, they're off. Both people are off. However, the priests are in a position where people say, look at that arrogant priest. And the lay people people look at the lay person and say, look at that arrogant person, but they don't say anything to the person probably because they don't really say that that person is, it's not clearer than that person saying, hey, I'm here for feedback on whether I'm arrogant about my practice of the precepts. So unless they are in a situation where they've told people that not only are they practicing these precepts, but they're trying to do it in such a way as to not imply that they're better than the people who aren't practicing the precepts. Whereas priests are supposed to not think they're better than the people who aren't practicing. Does that make sense? And lay people are supposed to think that too. Does that make sense? All bodhisattvas who are practicing these precepts, one of the precepts is

[34:38]

don't think you're better than the people who aren't. But if a priest looks like they think they're better than the people who are not practicing the precepts, They're more likely, I think, to get feedback. And they've said, please give me feedback if I look like that. And they've said it to people who are like living with them and watching them all the time and saying, you know, it's bad enough when a non-priest thinks he's better than somebody else, but when a priest does, it's really disgusting and I really feel bad about that. However, that's how the training goes, is that they get feedback faster and stronger because they're saying, I really want to practice renunciation. That's the name of my ordination. Renunciation is the main point. So if I don't look like I'm renouncing things, you know, please call me on it. Really?

[35:39]

Yeah. Okay. And then somebody sees a priest practicing and then they say, did you say you wanted me to call you on your practice? Did you? And the priest says, well, actually, no, I don't want you to. Maybe some other time. Oh, I don't trust you. You're not qualified or whatever. Get somebody else to call me on it. So then they go tell the priest's teacher, and the teacher says, I understand you didn't want feedback on your practice, is that true? Yes. Or maybe they won't even talk to their teacher. Teacher says, can I talk to you about something? Sometimes even the teacher, they say, what? What about? They do. It's happened. I say, well, nothing, I just, you know.

[36:41]

So that's, if you don't have that kind of support, it's going to be really difficult. So if you can create that kind of friendship where you tell people and tell them what renunciation looks like and ask them what they think it looks like, and together you kind of realize, yeah, this is what it would look like, so let's help each other practice these precepts. Then in a sense you start to create a little monastery in your home environment. A sangha, yeah, everybody needs a sangha. And the priests are just saying, yeah, I'm really going to try to face more and more the full consequences of renunciation. Another meaning of renunciation is renounce all your resistance to what's going on in what's happening. Because gain and loss, gain and loss is part of what's happening, you know, like the temperature

[37:52]

goes up, it goes down, it's a gain. We're not saying we don't notice that it gets warmer or colder. It's like when it gets warmer, you're trying to renounce any resistance to it getting warmer. You notice it got warmer, but you're not really concerned about it getting warmer. You're into like, it's warmer. We're trying to work up to having no resistance to reality. So when we resist reality, we get a certain kind of experience, which sounds different from the reality we hear about in the scriptures. So we hear the scriptures say, oh, you're all working together very nicely. It's not my experience, but that's not my experience because I'm into gain and loss. When I'm into gain and loss, I have my gain and loss concern goggles on, and then everything

[38:57]

looks like some people are helping me and some people aren't. Who's going to help with the gain? Oh, they are, those ones, they're supporting the gain. Who's going to be supporting the loss? Okay, I got them settled. You take the gain and loss off your eyes, and then everybody's helping you. But it's hard to take gain and loss off. It isn't like one time, okay, I dropped it. Yeah, that's great. Now, but how about tomorrow? Can I check on you tomorrow on that one? Sure. Sure. Check with me tomorrow and see if tomorrow I also want to take my gain and loss eyes off. Take them off, then you can see. And then to sit in that vision is the self-fulfilling samadhi. But we have to give up concern for gain and loss to really be in that realm. And setting up boundaries is a good way to find out if we're resisting.

[40:05]

Like somebody sets up a boundary, you set up a boundary, is there any resistance around the boundary? Boundaries are things you can resist, right? Like I don't want this boundary, I don't want this period of Zazen to start now, I want it to go longer. Some resistance to simply the defining line of what's going on. So if you can create a Sangha that helps you with that, you're like a priest, you're a renunciate. So, now in the West, in some ways right now, especially in Zen, you have more continuity between lay and priest than you did in China. Partly because of the widespread affluence in the United States, we have lots of lay

[41:11]

people who do not have to work from early in the morning to late at night to survive, who have time to set up practice situations where they can test whether they're trying to get something out of this life. We have leisure, so lay people can practice. But lay people, in some sense, some lay people are actually practicing more thoroughly than some priests in terms of renunciation. But still the priest situation is set up to promote this practice, that's the whole point of it. And so for lay Bodhisattvas, people who live in houses outside the monastery where they don't have their teacher checking on them, and where they don't have people paddling on them to the teacher, like if you're into gaining idea up in Maine, people don't call

[42:14]

me, you know? But if you tell them, if you tell them, you know, say, if I ever deviate into outflows, call Reb back in San Francisco. And then if you tell them, they say, really? You say, yeah. And then they start to call you and say, I was just kidding, don't call. No, you said, I believe you, now you're not sincere, you really do want me to call. No, no, don't! Well, I gave you the wrong number anyway. Does that make sense, Eric? I mean, Frederick? Yes? Two years ago, I went home from a practice period here to discover that my house and almost everything in it had been completely destroyed by a hot water leak while I was at the practice period. And the first part of the story is a response to Charlie's question, what do you do when

[43:16]

there's this huge shock? And the first thing I did was what many self-respecting students would do, I drank a chocolate milkshake that I had purchased on the way home from Adam Robbins, because the situation was so overbearing that I was not going to waste the privilege of doing that. You finished the milkshake? Yeah, I finished the milkshake. And the second thing that I did, and all I can say is that I was very grateful that I had come from a practice period, because when I stepped over what was left of the threshold of my home, I realized that I was going to be dealing with an army of contractors and insurance people for several months. And I made a vow, when I stepped over the threshold of commitment, if you will, in the words you've been talking about, that regardless of what I was feeling and the state that I was in, that I would meet the contractors and the insurance people with compassion and patience, regardless of what I was feeling. And what was amazing, and what I learned from that experience, was that once the commitment

[44:27]

was made, all of these showed up to help me in an astonishing way. I have found that in commitments that I've made since my own shoot at the door, and in other commitments, that once the commitment was made, I am a god, is probably the best word, at the amount of help that shows up. That's the value. And as you said, the dangers increase exponentially from time to time, but the amount of help that we get to deal with them, in that sense, is truly selfless.

[45:29]

I could also say it's not so much that the danger increases, it's just that you become more aware of how vulnerable you are. But again, as I become more aware of how vulnerable I am, as I open my eyes, or I stop resisting how vulnerable I am, I also stop resisting how I'm being helped. So, opening to vulnerability is very difficult, and in a way, opening to help is even, in some ways, more difficult. But if we can open to our vulnerability, it really helps, because it is also opening, at the same time it opens to the support. But we're really always vulnerable. It's just, it's hard to learn how to walk with our awareness of our vulnerability.

[46:48]

Like, I don't know about today, but in the old days, they used to get soldiers drunk before battles, so that they would numb their sense of vulnerability, and be able to storm into the fight. Yes? The gain and loss thing. It seemed mild at first, too. It seemed pretty easy, the idea. The notion of it, the idea of it, seemed okay. So came the cookie situation, and luckily I followed the Abbess' suggestion, and I'm just taking the one that's there, and I like them all, so I haven't been tested there. But I made a suggestion to you in writing through the email, and I had written that

[48:05]

perhaps we could make an exchange. Would you consider, I asked, you know, how much are the tapes, Abbess' tapes, and maybe we can make an exchange. I'll transcribe the tapes in a short amount of time, and we'll trade. Trade what, for a cookie? No. For the tapes. You know, I'll transcribe them, if I can have a set of tapes. I see, okay. So that seemed, oh, just kind of harder. Exchange. Yeah. No gain and loss. And then I came and sat down, keeping my vow that I made on Monday to give up discursive thoughts, which is just a whole other situation. And all of a sudden came, wait a minute, and I started tracking back where this idea came

[49:13]

to offer this bargain, this exchange. And the truth of the matter is, I had purchased some of your tapes, the Sesshin, in the winter a couple of years ago, haven't listened to one. So I thought, you know, I'm going to go home and transcribe these. I might buy these and transcribe them, and that way I'll listen to them again. A friend of mine in Australia had interviewed 50 Buddhist scholars for his dissertation, and I had transcribed all his tapes, and had discovered that this was really neat. I did it for nothing. I just did it. I said, wow, it's like coming straight inside. So what I realized in my confession is, I thought, and I guess it's a question, it'll be a confession, because it seems like it's a gaming idea for me. I was going to do the transcription anyway.

[50:16]

On further examination, I thought, wait a minute, I was going to do it anyway. Now I'm trying to get some tapes for it, you know? I was like, you told yourself it was exchange, bartering. Even then I said, gee, they sell vegetables on Sundays, exchange, you know. But deep down, you know what I mean? I realized... Deep down you found something. Yeah, I'm trying to get something. Is that true? Am I trying to get something? In my confession, I'm so reluctant to confess it. It's not really true you're trying to get something, but it's true that you think you are. Yeah, that is true. We're not really trying to get anything. That's an illusion, which we believe, but we're not really. That's not really what we're here... that's not really what our life is. But if we don't notice that we think that we're doing these calculations to gain stuff, then we miss out on what we're really doing.

[51:18]

So... So I repent and offer the transcript without the tape back to me. Okay, and would you also transcribe them without trying to get any knowledge? Oh, that's harder, yes. Without trying to understand the lectures, without trying to gain better understanding? Yeah. Yeah. Good. It's getting harder, yeah. It's okay to want better understanding. That's fine. It's okay to want to understand the teachings. That's fine. But to try to gain something out of understanding, just to understand for understanding, that's not a problem. But to try to get something for it, which a lot of Buddhist teachers do. They study hard to learn the teachings, and they do learn them, but they're trying to gain something by becoming well-versed in the teachings. They want to be Mr., you know, big famous Buddhist teacher.

[52:26]

But usually they've studied enough to know that that's a problem. So if someone says to them, you know, I detect some concern on your part for being famous, or whatever, you know, usually they'll say, Oh, yeah, thanks. Yeah, sorry. But, you know, if you do study, well, particularly if you get really good at renunciation, you will become very famous. And some people who practice renunciation really well and get famous, before they were famous, they didn't have any problem with fame. But then they get famous, they say, then they change, and they have problems they didn't have before. Because now they've got this big fame, you know, to deal with. And then they say, Oh, yeah, now I've got this, it's like a house, you know. So then you want to get fame insurance policy or something. So then you're trying to do everything to make sure your fame doesn't dip at all,

[53:31]

checking the charts on who's the most famous, you know, precious mirror on the wall. Who's the most famous teacher of them all? Suzuki Roshi? Oh, no. In some ways, he's fortunate he died before he became world famous. Can you imagine? If he was still alive, you know, how famous he'd be, and, you know, like, poor guy who everybody... You're the greatest, Suzuki Roshi. Look, thousands of people out there waiting for you. You're the oldest master on the planet. Could he handle it? I don't know. I want to go back to what you said at the beginning to me. If you're willing. And I first of all would like to express appreciation for whoever said something to you,

[54:33]

not so much because of me, but because I really enjoy hearing what people are saying, what they feel. I'm very happy to hear that happening. That person, by the way, was, you know, carefully asked if he could do that, because he wanted to make sure that I was ready for discussing that. And I have a curiosity about... Well, I want to ask you if you would be up for me asking you something about that interaction. Yeah, I am. So, I'm wondering if, in what you said, was I here for the whole lecture,

[55:33]

did that meet your sense of how you want to respect people? Because I'm guessing you didn't intend any disrespect. I'm curious actually where you were coming from when you made that comment. I think the first thing was, didn't you hear me say this already? That was the first thing. And then it slipped into, were you here in the earlier part of the lecture? But there was, you know, maybe I wasn't... I wasn't like aware and careful of how that would be for me to ask you that question, but I did sort of feel like, in some sense, I already brought this up. You know, I... Not exactly confused, but I...

[56:36]

More like, to some extent, did you miss that? You know, you're a smart lady. Were you asleep? You know, blah, blah. Were you here? There was a little bit of, like, maybe a little bit of irritation that you didn't get it. And then, rather than saying, probably would have been better to say, you know, I'm irritated that you didn't understand me completely already. That probably would have been better. I'm not always irritated that you don't understand me completely already, but sometimes maybe I am, and then I say, well, did you hear what I said before? So that's... So maybe that's really what it was about. It was that I was irritated, and rather than just telling you that, I was kind of like, well, I already said this big deal about this person and raising the flags and everything. That I don't want people to do that. I don't want people... Matter of fact, I don't want them to do that, plus I think if they would get this concern for gain and loss out in front

[57:39]

every time it happens, and, like, dramatize it, we'd get over it. And maybe there was a little gain and loss in me, in the sense that I gave the talk, and now I didn't get anything from giving the talk. You didn't understand what I just said, so I lost, or I didn't gain. So maybe a little bit concerned if I say something, I don't have to say it over. A little bit of that, too, in there. May I say one more thing? Actually, what was the most difficult for me in that exchange wasn't so much the things I hear, or the response to that. It was that I actually felt bad,

[58:40]

because I felt the same way. I didn't feel like you got my question or my concern. Even still, which is okay. But that was the most painful part. And what is your concern? Or issue? I experience people repressing their feelings pretty frequently. Because in the name of working towards gaining an idea, they're kind of...

[59:42]

It is a little related to what Kathy said yesterday, but they're trying to manipulate themselves into not actually feeling what's going on. So it's not so much putting the I had a gaining idea in front, so much as giving the feeling state and the body its life. Does that... Do you hear any difference between the two sides? It seems like giving the feeling state and the body its life would be good for that to be there before you dramatize it. And what I hear people doing is saying, that, you know, I feel, uh-oh, I've gained them off. And so they might raise the flag and say, I think I've gained them off,

[60:43]

but they've already shoved down the floor. Yes. This is in the same vein. I think it's to go to a center of the body, it's not... To go to a center of the body, it's not through the commitment to investigation. It was said yesterday that cities, the employees are then most freely the home of the body-mind. And if the body-mind is still deluded, how can this be? It's none of our business. It's just legacy. And that's where the commitment is. The commitment is just to let it be. And it's not in...

[61:46]

It's a tremendously difficult thing to do, because the body-mind, for all of us, is contractless. And you let it be, you meet those contractions, which are so painful. And the only way they will release is by letting it be. That's where the commitment to samadhi has to be made. When you sit in silence, you sit in stillness, and you sit within what is given to you. And I know myself, I sit in the prolonged position, because I see that as the deepest way for the body-mind to open. And it's incredibly painful for me. But that is the road. The road has to be there. If I commit to renunciation, whatever you're talking about, I just circle, get too involved in, am I doing it right, am I staying in law? There's no way to explore that. Why is it important just to accept and to be within what you have inside, in that firmness,

[62:46]

in that body? Thank you. Yes? I'd like to confess that yesterday I didn't feel good about the way I was reporting the dialogue between you and James. And as a result, felt checked out of the talk and was corrected by attendance. But I also didn't feel grounded enough to contribute in a way that would be helpful. More like I felt that I could contribute in harsh or unkind ways. So I also appreciate your reasoning at that time. Thank you. I have also a question to your conversation.

[63:55]

Could you speak up, Timo? Yes. I, for myself, have a question when James, for example, says now you should keep this feeling alive. That was my understanding of it. Before you Yes, you should recognize them and give them light before you do something. I have the question, for example, if some reaction from me comes up, which is, for example, repulsive, and I want to be sort of aggressive to somebody, that is what is coming up. For me the question is at which point do I suppress that what I would call authentic

[64:58]

reaction, which in the animal world is a normal thing, while not suppressing something, still giving that feeling its life, but not being I don't know putting down somebody else. Because, for example, to a Buddha I would understand I could do that perfectly, giving that expression its life, because he can deal with it with no problem. But it is for me like if I suppress it and not do it, it is not really authentic and it will still I couldn't give it its full life. And so with some feeling I have then the feeling I can give it full life because they are good, but with other feelings I cannot give them

[65:59]

their full life because I cannot authentically give them their full life. I propose that if something arises like a feeling, for example repulsion, that one way to talk about giving that feeling its full life is that you find your place right there in that feeling. That giving the feeling its full life is also you finding your place in that feeling. And that doesn't suppress it or elaborate it, but I think you and the feeling have your life together at that moment. And then I propose to consider

[67:01]

that then the practice unfolds from that place. And the practice and then you will test and see does the practice harm people? It should not. It should be helpful because you are being kind to yourself and the feeling, even though the feeling is repulsive. But if I am not kind to this feeling, even if it's a positive feeling, and I don't find my place right where I am in that feeling, I feel I'm not allowing the feeling, I'm not letting the feeling have its life, and I'm not finding my place in this feeling. So, if I feel repulsed or attracted, it's not the important thing. The important thing is that I find my place right where I am in my repulsion, and I find my place right where I am in the attraction.

[68:02]

Then from the attraction I will not be greedy. And then from the repulsion I will not be harsh. That's what I propose. But it's hard to find your place moment by moment, especially in intense attractions and intense repulsions and in vague, kind of blurry situations. It's hard to find our life right there and really accept this. And if we do it incompletely, then we're kind of driven by the, pushed around by the situation. So again, I'm more or less quoting Dogen, when you find your place right where you are, when you find your place right in how you are, the practice occurs, realizing the fundamental point.

[69:03]

But it's hard, like I told this story, you know, I was trying to practice that on the streets of Berkeley. I was trying to find my place in the situation of this imaginary situation of my car being, actually my car, it wasn't imaginary, my car was not where I thought it was, but the imaginary situation of my car being taken and my passport being gone, in that imaginary world I was having trouble finding my place, finding my way. But I was looking for it, I was trying to give life to it, but it was hard to find the life of this unexpected twist of conditions. But that's what I, that's what I want, that's what I vow to do,

[70:06]

is to find my place in the constantly changing world. Of getting a car, losing a car, finding a car, losing a car, having a house, losing a house. Okay? Yes? Yeah? Just as a fourth-year-old child and a lot was going on with you guys, just that I was thinking I'm ready to read a book and again, sure I'm not going to say that. I said, I want my life back. And Jerry said, you want your life back? And I said, yes, I want my life back. And it was really, really great.

[71:08]

Would you say that the phrase was fully expressing the life of the body and the mind? If you do that, isn't that, in other words, a concession? Sounds okay. I have another question which can wait. It is getting a little late, so if anybody is still burning, raise your hand. Yes? Yes. Miriam? One time, a few years ago, I had an experience of loss. And this is just something that we read, and I don't know anyone else. But I got in the mail a list of artists who were participating in community activities. My name is not on that list.

[72:22]

And I experienced some stress. And for some reason, I decided to go out. And I went through, and my mind was in my mouth. I left out again. They don't think my work is good enough. I'm not listening. I'm tired inside. I have to pee. But something was a little different. It felt like I was walking back and forth. And it felt really solid and motivated. And it felt like I was going to let them know. So, you know, I was able to feel a little bit. Well, I didn't... Great. Yeah. Yes?

[73:23]

It's in the chant in the morning. In the chant? A word I just wanted to clarify. When you say, I take refuge in the Buddha before all beings. Before all beings. The before part. The character means like in front of, you know. Like in the front of all beings. It also can be translated as with. The character could be with. Like before you, I, in your presence. Before you, in your face, in your presence, I take refuge in Buddha. But in this case, before everyone. In the presence of everyone. Together with everyone. So it could be... I think that the before was chosen for sound. I was worried it was the before. Yeah. Before, like prior to.

[74:30]

No, it means... Really, it means together. I would usually translate that character as together with all beings. I take refuge together. But it also could be, you know, before all of you, I take refuge in Buddha. Before all you, I take refuge... That feeling of... Okay? Everyone? As a teacher, you're a focal point of all attention. Positive, negative, accurate, inaccurate. You know, whatever. How do you not let the dust build up and rushes in your face? How do you... It's an enormous amount of energy. How do you not... How do you not get screwed up? Well, if I don't get screwed up, it's not by my own power. You know, I'm just supported by all beings to not get screwed up.

[75:31]

If I do get screwed up, then I'm supported by all beings to notice that or not. And sometimes I'm supported to notice it. And then I can confess it. Either notice it and confess it to someone else, or anyway, notice it myself and see how that feels. So, when I don't get tripped up, I don't know how that happens. When I get attention and I don't get inflated, it's not by my own skill that that happens. I'm just... Somehow the conditions are such that I don't get tripped up. That's great. That you can perform the function without taking it personally. That sometimes happens, which is wonderful. You serve this purpose and no big deal. But when I do get caught on that point of getting a lot of attention, sometimes I notice it and sometimes I don't. Sometimes when I do notice it, basically I'm okay,

[76:36]

because then I practice confession and repentance with it. Because I don't feel good getting caught by it, actually. I feel uncomfortable and silly and etc. If I don't notice it, but I am caught, then I depend on other people to point it out to me. You know, I thought there was a tone of arrogance in what you just said. As a matter of fact, I think you came and told me that once. So part of what I have to do is, perhaps more than I do, but also maybe not totally just say it all the time, but maybe I should just constantly... That's all I should ever say is, please give me feedback, please give me feedback. I welcome feedback. So I'm saying that to you, but maybe I should say it more, that I need you to tell me when I'm appearing arrogant

[77:40]

or self-righteous or inflexible or power-hungry or etc., etc. All those things which could happen to somebody if they get tripped up by their authority. You can stick to it. But that doesn't mean that it will never happen, it just means that you're welcoming the feedback when it does. And, you know, that's how I do it basically. Does that make sense? I think you can count on us for the feedback and I think you can count on us really for myself just from the bottom of our heart. Thank you for sitting there. You're welcome. And I do count on you, but I don't expect that you're going to follow through on this. That's why I have to keep inviting you, because people say,

[78:43]

yeah, he invited me, but I think there could be a time limit on the invitation. That's why it's good to check with somebody who invites you to give them feedback. Does that invitation still hold? But also the person should reissue it because some people won't even ask you because they think, well, that was a long time ago and he doesn't look like he wants feedback now. Looks like he's just charging ahead there. So I do count on you, I need you, but I don't assume you're going to do what I invited you to do. But if you want to say to me that you're making that vow, I appreciate that, but that doesn't mean I think you're going to follow through, especially if I get really mean. You might say, I'm just going to let him crash. I'm not going to help him. That's what sometimes people do. They see teachers heading in the wrong direction and say, I'm just going to let him go. He's going to crash. I'm not going to say anything because if I do, he's going to run over me anyway, so why should I endanger myself by saying, you're on a trajectory of ruin here.

[79:46]

I just want to tell you that. And then whack, you know. Well, I'm not going to tell you again. But really, you should tell him again. You should save the teacher from catastrophe by endangering yourself to getting whacked for telling the teacher that the teacher is heading for trouble. But they do sometimes. Teachers and other leaders, when they're heading for trouble, their devoted friends are the ones who tell them that they're heading for trouble. The people who hate them say, just watch him, there he goes, let him go. The friends try to warn them, and they sometimes hit their friends, you know. But the good friend will try again. And I've sometimes not helped the person the second time because I got hit the first time, and I think that was my shortcoming. I should have done it again for that person's welfare, not worried about the fact that I was going to get, you know, from my kindness. That's what I would like to do,

[80:47]

but it's not easy to help an arrogant bastard who's going to smash you if you try to help them by telling them that they look like that. Maybe you can put it a different way. Like Suzuki Roshi would probably say, you know, one great thing about you is you're not an arrogant bastard. That's something that will never happen to you. You'll never have that problem. I'd love that about you. And they kind of go, I wonder why he said that. Anyway, it's getting kind of late. Any other burning questions? Just to go for a show of hands, who wants the poem?

[81:47]

Oh, a show of hands? For who wants the poem? One... A lot. Why don't you just make a lot? Because probably I won't be able to stop doing it again someday. I feel forced to do that poem sometimes. French side? When the bird sings, if the bird sings, it's a sign that you can sign. It's a sign that you can sign. It's an indication that you can sign. And there's other... One person who heard this poem recently said that she gives this poem,

[82:50]

this French poem to her students to translate into English and she didn't like this translation very much. This is Ferlin Getty's translation. I feel a little uncomfortable with this bad, you know, bad picture and bad painting. But kids, you know, maybe it's good for kids to say bad. I don't know. Because some other word may be too subtle or something, but I actually am going to ask her to send the translations of her students to see other possible ways of saying it. Is that the end of the burners? May our intention equate To the creeping embers With the true marionette Of the devil's wake Beings are numerous I may vow to escape them

[83:54]

Delusions are irresistible I may vow to enter them And where monarchies surround us I may vow to enter them And where the spray is unsurpassable I may vow to become them

[84:19]

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