How's the retreat going so far? It's going? Any problems you'd like to bring up? Yes? I'm confused about how to take action without Okay. Okay, and did you have your hand raised, Pin? Yes. I just wondered how and when should I use my understanding of the ultimate truth. Okay. I wasn't actually wondering if you had any questions about the teaching, but do you have any problems with the way things are going or anything?

[01:02]

I heard your questions, though. Yes. The presentations are too dense sometimes. You'd like a little space. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So I thought maybe I might be giving too much. Is that right? Giving a little bit too much? Am I giving too little? Just a little bit more space? Okay. So... So Paul asked about, how can one act without preference, like you said?

[02:13]

Well, before you get onto that, you might say, how do you act with preference? Which means, look at how you act with preference. So, can you notice your preferences And can you notice how they're involved in your activity? So noticing, it's going to be hard to learn how to practice without preference if you don't notice what a preference is. Because you might think, hey, I have no preferences, but you don't even know what a preference is, so, you know, you have them but don't notice them. So maybe part of what you can do right now is you can start looking for any preferences you have. And then you can notice, do these preferences, get involved in your activities. And if so, then you can see, oh, now this is an activity where preference was, where I had a preference and the preference was very critical or actually drove the activity.

[03:27]

Okay? If you can do that, then you might be able to notice that sometimes you have preferences, but maybe they don't drive you. It could happen, once you notice. So, for example, you might prefer to stay home, but Kate might want to go out, and you actually prefer to stay home. But you go out because Kate wants to, right? That's an example of action that's free of your preferences. And you can say, well, the reason why you go out with Kate is because you're devoted to her and you're a bodhisattva, so you always think of what you can do as an act of devotion to her. But your commitment to practicing selfless devotion is not a, you know, you could say you prefer to do that, but you could also say, I don't really prefer to do it.

[04:35]

I just, that's just what, that's just my life. But in the midst of my life, various preferences come up. Like I prefer to stay home. Now I use that example because I almost always prefer to stay home. But as you, if you look at my teaching schedule, you see I don't. The reason why I don't is because I get the impression that some people want me to, you know, go visit them someplace. So I go, but I don't prefer to go. But I know my preferences. And, you know, they don't have much. They don't have much. They don't have much. They don't completely dominate my life. And part of the reason why they don't is because I know what they are. So they do arise. I see them, and then I enjoy dropping them. My preferences are, you know, they're okay.

[05:40]

I mean, if I get what I prefer, I don't mind. It's nice. But what's really fun is to give them up. That's really great. Well, there's two things. One would be you prefer to stay home, but your spouse wants to go out. So you go out, but even while you're going out, you still prefer to stay home. Okay? That's not really dropping the preference. And it's not as much fun to... Is there something the matter with Razi? She's trying to chew somebody's book? She's trying to chew the floorboard. Pardon? There's probably something under the wood. There's an animal under the wood.

[06:41]

But to have a preference and really give it up, is very joyful. Because in some of our preferences, they aren't that big a deal to give up anyway. But even though they aren't that big a deal to give up, they can be a big deal to hold on to. I mean, when I say they're not that big a deal to give up, what I mean is they're not that hard to give up. So they're not only not that hard to give up, but when you do hold onto them, they can cause a major problem. And when you let go of them, although it's not that big a deal in the first place, when you let go of them, it's quite wonderful. Even to give up a small thing is really quite delightful. So does that make some sense about how to practice being free of preferences?

[07:48]

I get, I guess it's when I start looking at it, kind of more taking it apart in more detail, like the example of staying home versus Kate wants to go out. Yeah. And I choose to, I'd like to stay home, but I choose to go out with her. I look at that and then say, well, now I'm with her. I guess this is where I get stuck, is where I... I'm looking at that and I'm saying, well, but my preference is to really be with her and do what she wants. So that's why I'm giving up staying home. So I sort of see that when I take up the next step, I keep finding there's a possibility of seeing a preference. But I don't see the place where I get away from the preference. Well. your preference to stay home might still be there even though you go out.

[08:52]

You still might prefer to go home even though you go out, but you let go of your preference. So it's not that there's this phenomena called a preference, it's not that the preference is not there, it's just that there's a superficial quality of the preference and then there's a deep quality of the preference. Because of the deep quality, the profound aspect of the preference, you can let go of it. When you let go of it, you're in alignment with ultimate truth. Because the profound aspect of the preference is you can't really find the preference. There really isn't such a thing there all by itself as the preference anyway. And it's only because you don't look carefully at the preference that you would attach to it. But that doesn't mean the preference isn't there from the point of view of what it would be like if you looked at it superficially.

[09:56]

So if you just glance over your shoulder at your preference, well, it's still your preference. Yeah, I still prefer to stay home. But if you actually look deeply at what is that anyway, if your wife would leave you alone for a few seconds and you could look to see what your preference is, But she won't. She's saying, you know, let's go, let's go, let's go. And you say, just a second, I want to examine this preference to see what it is. I want to find the profound aspect of this, you know. Oh, do that later. Let's go, let's go, you know. So you don't have time, you know, to like look and see the emptiness of the preference. If you saw the emptiness of the preference, you couldn't hold on to it. So then, you know, if she said you want to go out, you say, well, I think I had a preference one for staying home, but I can't find it, so I guess I'll go. But sometimes you don't have time to check, you know, to really see the ultimate truth. So when you act, you can act like you can see the ultimate truth, which is that you can't even find the preference to stay home.

[11:01]

But that doesn't mean you have to find another preference to go. You're just standing there or sitting there like you can't find anything to hold on to, and your wife says, let's go, and you say, okay. In other words, you respond appropriately. which is always to do what your wife says. If you have a wife. If you have a husband, you always do what your husband says. Because why not? Got a problem? Got something better to do than do what they say? I doubt it. And you may say, oh, yes, I do. I say, well, what is it? Let's look at it. If we look, you won't find it. This is called freedom. But it doesn't mean that the superficial nature of the phenomena called preference is not there. There is a phenomena called preference. And the superficial nature is you think it's there and you think you could hold it because it's there all by itself.

[12:04]

I could get it. Well, yeah. There wouldn't be any profound aspect of preference if there wasn't a superficial one because you wouldn't know where to look to find out that it wasn't there. So the profound is there, the superficial is there, and sometimes you don't have time to find the superficial, so practice like you would if you understood the profound. Namely, the Buddha wouldn't be attached to preference to stay home, so you aren't either. Now, the other way to practice with preference would be, you know, if your wife gave you time or your husband gave you time, just say your husband comes up to you and says, okay, later tonight I want to leave. I know you prefer to stay home, but I'll give you four hours to examine your preference, realize its emptiness, and be happy to leave. So then you start looking at your preference, and you look at it, and you study it, and pretty soon you can't find it. And you say, okay, then you're just sitting there in emptiness. And then no husband comes and says, let's go. And you say, fine.

[13:06]

You see the ultimate truth. You can do anything. So if you can't see the ultimate truth, act like you can, which is let go of a superficial understanding of what's going on and do what your wife wants. If you can see the ultimate truth, then you have already let go of your superficial nature of your preference, so you're not holding it. It's just a preference. You don't even know whose it is anymore, or where it is, or what it is. You don't know if your preference is an eagle, a storm, or a great song. You're Buddha, basically, at that time. Although, you know, you have some more work to do. But anyway, but you basically see what Buddha would see, namely you see your preference as empty. And training yourself at meditation on emptiness is partly to try to train yourself at letting go of things of the superficial nature.

[14:16]

To try to train at that Because if you train at that, you may notice you're holding on. If you notice you're holding on, look at what you're holding on. If you look at what you're holding on to, you won't find it, and then you'll let go. So this is a training at letting go of a preference, and it's also a meditation on emptiness or ultimate truth. But it isn't that preference goes away. You may always prefer to stay home for the rest of your life. And your preference then becomes a door to enter into freedom. Freedom from staying home. I just like to stay home. People ask me to leave and I'm always leaving. Some other people want to leave. People say, would you please stay home? You're totally distracted. Stay home. Okay. So happiness is not getting what we prefer. Happiness is freedom from what we prefer. But everybody prefers stuff.

[15:19]

I see that's a song. I doubt people wrote that one down. And those who didn't can get the tape. Okay, Pim's next, and then you have a question, Liz? Yes. Pim? You said, how do I what? How do I know how to act from my understanding of ultimate truth? How do you use your understanding of ultimate truth? All the time, every place. Like right now, use it. Yes. What are you to see? That's fine.

[16:22]

No, it's not, you know, you say, what is it that I should see? Something like that you should say? What did you learn? What is it? What is ultimate truth? Yeah. So now you know, now you understand emptiness? Well, what do you understand about it? How do you understand it? Emptiness is empty? Yeah, that's right. So is that what you understand? How do you apply it? Well, you do not apply your understanding of emptiness to anything, unless your understanding of emptiness is a misunderstanding of emptiness.

[17:42]

If you understand emptiness, you will understand that you do not apply anything to anything, because emptiness is in the realm, is realized by non-dual awareness. And non-dual awareness isn't that Pym applies anything to anything. Or that anything gets applied to anything. Because there's not like two things. Everything is already perfectly applied to everything by nobody. So your question is not from the side of understanding emptiness. Your question is from duality. You want to know how to apply your understanding to something else. Well, I guess for me, when I learn about something, I kind of want to know how useful it is, how it would help me further along my knowledge or my behavior.

[18:53]

Yes, that's fine, but this retreat's studying the two truths, and so I'm telling you that what you're describing is called the superficial truth. This is conventional. You're talking about conventional truth, that I, Pim, when I learn something, I want to know how to apply it. I just want you to understand that what you're talking about is not ultimate truth, but conventional truth. So you're talking to me about conventional truth, but you're talking as though you're talking about ultimate truth. So you should understand you're talking about ultimate truth, but talking about ultimate truth is not ultimate truth. Ultimate truth is not in the realm of consciousness of me talking about something, or me thinking of something, or my consciousness having objects, dualistic objects. So you see, you're really talking about conventional truth right now, even though you're saying ultimate truth.

[19:55]

This is not what ultimate truth is like. I wouldn't say you shouldn't think about it, because you're going to think about it, or you're going to have a program called prohibiting yourself from thinking about it, which is probably worse than just thinking about it. I'm not telling you not to think. I'm not telling you not to have a superficial understanding of what's going on. That would be ridiculous of me to say that, because that would be telling you not to be a human being. And I'm not telling you not to be a human being. I'm just saying... When you're a human being, please notice that you're a human being. And notice what kind of a human being you are. Namely, are you a human being who is involved in dualistic awareness and therefore seeing conventionalities? Or are you a human being who is realizing non-dual awareness and is not finding any conventionalities anymore? Which one are you? And the way you were talking just then sounds like you're working with conventionalities, but you sounded a little confused because you were talking about ultimate truth.

[21:02]

Okay? So you go ahead and think conventionally because all phenomena are available for conventional, to be interpreted as conventionalities. Now, if you want to hear what's good about understanding ultimate truth, we can talk about that. But if you want to know how to bring ultimate truth into the conventional world, well, it doesn't come in to the conventional world. It isn't in the conventional world. I don't think I really have to bring it to the conventional world. I just want to know, now that I understand it, just let it be. That's it. Let it be? well you said let it be but then you said now that I understand it so tell me about this understanding of ultimate truth that you're saying that you now have if you you don't see anybody out there

[22:27]

Well, do you see anybody out there? If you don't look hard, can you see anything? You don't see anybody? So you're wondering if just letting go and not seeing anybody, if that's all you have to do with that? That sounds like good enough for me. Yes.

[24:02]

Oh, yes. Yes, Liz. I just wanted to ask, when is the preference of taking care of yourself? I mean, it seems to me there's a difference. There's a difference between a preference and taking care of yourself? Yeah, I think that's right. But if you look hard enough, it probably isn't, right? There isn't what? Well, if you look hard enough, you can't find a preference. Yes. That's taking care of yourself. Yeah, that's taking care of yourself. That's the way of taking care of yourself that most people don't prevail upon. But I think what you're talking about is in a case where you have a preference to do something that you think would be taking care of yourself, right? A little whatty?

[25:04]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, why don't you take a more simple example, because feeling funky is often very good to go out when you feel funky. You know, especially not because you want to escape your funkiness, but because you're being invited to leave by your spouse. It's oftentimes very good. The reason why you're funky probably is because you're holding on to your funkiness and don't want to do what your spouse wants you to do. I'm going to use my own self. Just take a case. This morning, I didn't want to get up to go to sitting because I was feeling a little Yeah, so that's not a very good example. That's because... Yeah. That you were tired? Yeah. Yeah, you're especially tired. So you thought it would be good to take care of yourself by resting. Yes.

[26:08]

And you did take care of yourself and you think it was a good decision? Did you get some rest? Did it help? Was it helpful? No. No, I think I do, but you don't seem to understand that I do. You thought it would be helpful. So you thought you should do that to take care of yourself, right? Well, no, no, no. You thought it would be helpful to take care of yourself, period. Okay? Then you're adding on to that a preference. Some, yeah, two things. One is you think this would be helpful. The other is you prefer to do it. Some people think something is helpful and they don't prefer to do it. Quite often, as a matter of fact, people see things that are helpful that they prefer to do something that's unhelpful. Right?

[27:09]

Quite frequently people do things that they prefer to do and they know it's not helpful. like they prefer to punch their spouse. They really prefer to do it, and they do it because they're driven by their preferences, and they know it's not helpful. But your case is, what about when you prefer to do something that's helpful? Okay? That's your question, right? Yeah, even if, even if it's with a person who might want you to do something for them... Well, take a simple example where there's not anybody else involved. Just you taking care of yourself, all by yourself, getting some rest. You think that would be helpful. And you prefer to do it. So what do you do in a case like that? What you do is you give up your preference and do what you think is helpful. it may be tricky to give up the preference because you may think, well, I gave up the preference, but I did it anyway, what I preferred.

[28:12]

So you may not really feel that you gave up your preference, but whether you feel like it or not, you could have given it up. I mean, I shouldn't say, yeah, whether you feel like you gave it up or not, you could give it up. And the question is, you know, in your heart, do you feel like you let go of it, even though you did what you thought was helpful, what you thought would be helpful? Or do you feel like you did what you thought was helpful and held on to your preference? You have to look for yourself. And it is possible to do something that you think is helpful and have no preference for it, and prefer it, but let go of the preference. For example, it's possible to rest, have a preference for resting, and not hold onto the attachment to the preference. And also not be attached to doing what's helpful. Just do it without grasping the preference.

[29:16]

And that's taking better care of yourself because attaching to preferences is very tiring. It's tiring, it disorganizes your body-mind harmony to be attaching to preferences. Your body-mind generates preferences very nicely, doesn't it? It's doing its work, preference, preference, preference. You don't need to attach to the preference to make the preference production continue. Attaching is just overdoing it. It's too much. It's a heavy, obsessive, compulsive addition to your life, which is you've got a body and mind and a brain that generates preferences nonstop. But everybody's got preferences, but not everybody takes care of themselves well. So a lot of people can't even think of anything helpful to do.

[30:22]

even though they're inundated with preferences which they're attached to. And attaching to preferences also makes it harder to see what is actually probably beneficial. But sometimes you can see something and it seems clearly beneficial to you and or others. I mean, really like a good thing to do. And you also notice you just happen to prefer to do it. Well, that's the way it is sometimes. It's okay. It's okay. The practice which will lead you to understand the ultimate nature of caring for yourself and also your preferences, the practice which warms you up to seeing ultimate truth is to let go of what's helpful and your preference. Let go of both. That's the activity which trains you into non-dual awareness.

[31:23]

Meantime, pardon? Letting go of what's helpful too. But letting go of what's helpful doesn't mean you don't do what's helpful. Just like I said yesterday, even if you had already understood ultimate truth, you still need to go back and practice virtues which generate merit and virtue in order to become Buddha. So you still have to go back into the superficial quality of phenomena and make donations to people and be devoted to people without analyzing why you're being devoted so that you can't even find anything to be devoted to. But you can do so with detachment. while you're going through the motions of practicing virtues, which are the things that are good for you, like patience and being careful, you know.

[32:32]

Not overworking is a part of enthusiasm. So part of taking care of yourself is to notice when you've done enough work and it's time to stop. That's part of taking care of yourself. And that's the virtue of enthusiasm, which also benefits others. Is that making sense? Yes. I just wanted to sort of try to say what I heard you say and see if I got it. When I was hearing you say when you were relating doing what's helpful and having preferences and virtue, what I heard was that one acts in a way that's helpful without an attachment to the fact that it's helpful and without an attachment to the preference that one may or may not have about doing the fact that it's helpful.

[33:42]

Yes, but even if you have attachment to virtuous acts, they're still virtuous. In addition to still being helpful, they're also virtuous. No, helpful, virtuous, same thing. So doing something that's helpful and or virtuous generates merit, stores and develops this big body of virtue. Even if you are attached, it still does. So accomplishing an understanding... of emptiness is not a necessary requirement in order to act virtuously. No. But it is a necessary... I mean, in the sense that they don't depend on each other. No, they do depend on each other. But you don't need to realize emptiness before you practice virtue. You can do that before you understand emptiness. But after you understand emptiness, if you're a bodhisattva, in order to realize Buddhahood, you have to go and practice, continue to practice virtue.

[34:48]

You can't just like practice virtue enough to build a basis for jumping into ultimate truth and then just stay in ultimate truth. You know, and just hang out in wisdom then forever. You have to bring your wisdom back into connection with the skillful means of a bodhisattva, which are giving the ethical practices patience, enthusiasm, and meditation on the modes of being that, again, open you back up into wisdom. But those practices, after some realization of wisdom, are now purified of attachment to the practices and also you're also purified of attachment to your preferences. Now, you may do something you prefer, but it's not because you prefer that you do it. you do it because it just happens to once in a while coincide with a virtuous deed, which you're practicing.

[35:52]

So wisdom isn't just, for a Buddha, wisdom isn't just this wonderful coursing in what is ultimately true. It's connected to the skillful means Skillful means are ways of generating all this positive energy which manifests the Buddha body in the world. And also these skillful means, which is kind of the other side of the same coin, these skillful means are ways of universal attraction. They attract beings to come to see the Buddha. So they manifest the Buddha body, which is the same thing as attracting people to the Buddha body and the Buddha practice. And how do you attract beings? By giving. That's very attractive. By being very careful about what you're doing, that's attractive. By being patient, by being enthusiastic, and by being luminously meditative,

[36:58]

This is things that people can see and it attracts them. And as they're attracted to these practices, as beings are attracted to these practices, Buddha appears in the world. That's what Buddha is like when Buddha is in the world, is beings are attracted to practice. That's when Buddha is in the world. And those practices are attracting beings even before the practices are conjoined to perfect wisdom, the practices still are attracting beings. Because even people trying to do these practices ineffectively, with all kinds of attachments, is still quite lovely. You see people trying to practice patience in a kind of unskillful way, it's still quite endearing and it's still quite educational. You watch somebody trying to practice patience ineffectively, so you can kind of tell what they're trying to do sometimes and say, no, they're doing it wrong, but it's really nice that they're trying, you know? And also, they show you the wrong way to do it.

[38:02]

So you're learning about patience by them doing it wrong, plus you appreciate them, and you just think it's really quite nice. Or they're practicing giving, but, you know, they do it ineffectively, like they give you something, you know, and then kind of try to take it back. Say, oh, you know, you see, that was a good try, you know? So you both see that, but that was, you know, you see what giving really would be like by seeing them doing it wrong. And even if they're doing it really well, but with some attachment, you also see, that's how it works. Now, if they could do it with no attachment, well, that's like very, very attractive. Very attractive. And then you say, oh, God, I'd love to practice that way. I mean, not only is that educational, but I want to do it just like that. In other words, I want to be a Buddha. When you want to be a Buddha, Buddha's here. So, okay? Get the picture?

[39:04]

Yes, Susan. Sometimes people try to understand it and it seems to get stuck in the spot because they don't understand it rather than moving with it, which made the question occur to me. There are some people who I've experienced too, but some people that are just natural. They just kind of follow as in this path naturally. They don't know what they're doing or why they're doing it. It's just a parent in their being. So a person who naturally moves down the path that just goes with the flow with does all these things naturally without learning how to do them. Develop at the same rate as one who's learning to do this. Faster, slower, the same. Well, tell me more about this natural flowing thing. I couldn't hear you. Tell me more about this natural flowing way. I don't know.

[40:11]

I think back on my grandmother. She was just a really nice person that really cared about everybody. A southern woman. She didn't lie. She didn't cheat. She didn't steal. She was giving. She was quiet. She was meditative, prayerful. She was all of these things that we learn to be. She really touched the philosophy, this philosophy, or really any other philosophy. It was enough for being. So I'm the person sitting here trying to learn this, too. She'd sell me. Do I sell her? Do we go at the same rate? How does that process work? I think there are people who avoid that. I guess I'd have to talk to your grandmother. Go ahead. I'm here. She's here. Okay. So how do you understand phenomena, Granny? I don't. You don't? Just is. What do you mean by just is? This is my experience.

[41:13]

This is what I'm experiencing. It doesn't really matter about anything. What are you experiencing? You probably have to think about it, but loving her family, loving other people, just truly in this world, So you mean Grandma's saying, I'm thinking about loving my family? Is that what she says? Okay. And I say, well, tell me about your family, Granny. What is your family? What do you mean by your family? So I'm part of your family, too? Well, what am I to you, Granny? Someone that I'm... I think she really saw other people as part of herself.

[42:17]

I mean, I think the idea of empathy and being able to stand in the shoes of another individual kind of got rid of... Okay, so if Granny sees other people as part of herself, or not as part of herself, but let's say she sees people as part of herself... I think if you're asking the question, she'd flip out and not know, but it's a quite natural interaction. Well, I won't get into this thing about Granny flipping out yet. But if Granny tells me that what she sees is me not as me being separate from her, or she sees me not as being separate to her, then that is Granny's philosophy. You told me Granny was not into philosophy, but that is a philosophical position, which is... Well, most people come up with natural philosophy without, you know, but they don't like go to philosophy school, you know, where there's a door that says philosophy school, they go in.

[43:19]

They learn their philosophy from their grandmas and from their mothers and from their fathers. They learn, we learn a philosophy, a philosophical position, which we don't examine, which is that we're separate from each other. That's called a non-contemplative person is a person who has a philosophical position but doesn't contemplate it. No, it's not that you must study. It's that if you do not study, you're not a contemplative. Okay? Everybody is naturally learning about life all the time. Everybody does that. But not everybody examines what they've learned. Your grandmother might have been examining what you learned. I don't know. That's why I say, you said you could represent her. But anyway, if you're representing her, I would say, Granny, are you examining what you see?

[44:28]

Like you see your children, or you see me. I'm one of your children. Do you see me? You say yes. Let's say you say yes. Then I ask you, are you contemplating me, Granny? If you say yes, then granny is studying. She's contemplating. She's doing philosophical inquiry into what in the world is this person that she's talking to. Now, maybe your grandma did that, and maybe she didn't. But if she didn't, then I'm saying she doesn't do that, so she's not contemplating her philosophical position. Everybody has a philosophical position. Everybody thinks... Every usual person thinks that certain things are real and certain other things are not. Your grandmother thought certain things were real. That's probably why she was practicing this and so on. You said that in order to get to ultimate, you have to be totally immersed in the conventional. Right. Isn't that totally immersing yourself in the conventional?

[45:31]

Isn't what totally immersed in conventional? No, that's not totally immersed. That's superficially immersed. That's the way most people are. Most people are walking around in the world of duality thinking that other people, philosophically having the position that other people are not them. That's the usual thing, right? totally immersed. What I mean by totally immersed is not just that you're walking around in the world of duality, the world that dualistic consciousness has created. Not just that, because that's the usual thing. Everybody's walking around in the world that their dualistic consciousness realizes. That's the usual thing for a normal, successfully developed person. They develop with the aid of their mother and so on, the ability to feel separate from other people. This is an achievement, a realization, and they think it's true that they're separate from other beings.

[46:35]

Okay? You look like you're someplace else. Yeah. Well, do you want to come back here and talk to me now? Or do you want to talk to Grandma some more? Well, when you're ready to talk to me... If you're ready to talk to me, let me know. I'll talk to you. Otherwise, I'll talk to the other people. So, your people are walking around in the world of duality, but the usual person is not contemplating the dualities which they are observing. What I mean by deeply immersed is that you start to contemplate this world of duality. You start to question. How real it is that these people, is it really true that these people are separate from yourself? We think it's true. This is our philosophical position. Are you contemplating that? There are two kinds of people, basically. Those who do not contemplate and just grasp what they think is true, and then they just fight it out the rest of the way with their spouses and so on.

[47:44]

and their children. They just struggle and fight their truth against other people's truth, and this is the world of suffering. Some other people who are also involved in that mess are contemplating this world that they live in. And as they contemplate more and more, they get closer and closer to realizing that what they thought was true was really a superficial truth, which comes with your comes with your upbringing, usually. It's a superficial truth, namely, I'm separate from you. And if I just accept that this is a non-contemplative, highly common approach. Buddhas come into the world to encourage people to become contemplatives. And also, when you first start contemplating, you don't understand as deeply as later. And people who have been contemplating longer than you have the opportunity to refute your current philosophical position so that you can let go of it and move deeper.

[48:54]

And they start with what you understand and work with that to show you a deeper way of looking. So you can go deeper and deeper until you get to the... There is an end, and the end is understanding emptiness. And you can be a very good person before you start contemplating. You can have enough understanding, even with a superficial understanding, you can have enough understanding in that realm to wish to practice virtues. And the more you practice virtues, the better your life goes, and also the more open you will be to hearing about contemplating what you think is true. The great benefit of practicing virtues prior to wisdom is not only do they generate positive energy, but they generate your willingness to examine what you're up to. So then if you're willing to examine what you're up to, you're a contemplative.

[50:04]

You're examining what you think is true, you're questioning what you think is true, and you learn how to do that in a loving way. And you also learn how to do it in a loving way means without trying to get what it is. Because trying to get what it is is kind of antithetical. to going deeper, because trying to get what it is is based on the superficial understanding that you can get stuff, that stuff's out there to get. So if you study the superficial with a non-gaining attitude, that's the attitude which will open the profound to you. So if you start contemplating the conventional world, even with a kind of gaining acquisitive grasping mode, it's still a beginning of contemplation, even though it is antithetical to going deeper.

[51:45]

So your first attempts at contemplation may actually rigidify and, you know, entrench you more in grasping the truth of your position. Even if you start doubting your position, in fact, you're making it stronger by reinforcing the grasping tendencies, which are based on the idea that there's something separate to grasp. But if you do that, you will see how that makes things worse. And then what some people think is, well, I probably should stop meditating because I'm making things worse by examining what I'm up to. And at that time like that, you doubt the virtues of meditation. And at times like that, you need to consult scriptures or have discussions with more experienced contemplators because they'll tell you, oh, yeah, well, that would make sense that you're feeling worse because you're doing the practice improperly.

[52:54]

So yeah, you had problems before you're meditating and now you took your problems and your misunderstanding and you applied it to meditation and you just basically cranked up your problems more under the guise of meditation. But that's not meditation what you're doing. That's just a highfalutin form of grasping. So then you see, oh yeah, that's right, that's what I'm doing. I'm like making it worse. I'm just reiterating delusion on top of delusion. Oh yeah. Yeah. So then you learn by that example and gradually you soften up your approach to meditation. And you start going deeper. But a lot of people anyway start meditating like that. Maybe some of you have already had some experiences like that. Yes, Leon.

[53:57]

Yesterday you talked about non-contemplatives, non-yogis, common people. I've been trying to figure out since then what the role was for the non-contemplative in Buddhism. Their job security for the contemplatives. Yes. It seems like maybe there aren't really any non-hypocrites or common people involved with that group, except one, or except Buddhists. Pardon? Except Buddhists. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, well. Right, because even somebody who's improperly trying to practice contemplation is a contemplative. So like I sometimes say to people, which I can elaborate on maybe towards the end of the retreat, a lot of times at the end of the retreat people say, how can I continue the retreat?

[55:08]

Because the retreat's kind of like, creates an external monastery, you know. But when you leave the retreat, you have to create an internal monastery because the external monastery is going to drop away. You're not going to have this schedule. You're not going to have this group. You're not going to have the teacher, all that stuff. So you've got to build something inside like that when you leave the thing. So what I sometimes recommend is a method of setting up a... in sort of an internal commitment to practice, which you then make a commitment to. And I can talk more about that later, but basically what I say to people is, if you set up something that you think is reasonable and you want to do and you make a commitment to it, even if you don't do it, you learn from being unsuccessful at it. So, like I often say, one time I was walking around downtown, I was like, I don't know, I think it was like Christmas shopping or something.

[56:10]

I was at Macy's. like at 5.30 in the afternoon, walking around Macy's, and I thought, oh, I'm missing meditation. But only a contemplative thinks, oh, I'm missing meditation. You're missing it, but you're not really missing it because you remember you're missing it. So you're practicing contemplation by remembering you're missing it. So then you may not, it may be just that one moment of contemplation that you're doing in Macy's, but you may continue then, just have your period of meditation in Macy's, who's, I don't know. So even improper meditation attempts is still, you're trying. But some people do not even try. Therefore, except for a Buddha, who's also not trying because they're just... they have examined their philosophy so thoroughly they don't have one anymore. And they're just... But if someone asked them what their philosophy was, they could say, but they don't carry it around.

[57:13]

It just pops out when somebody asks them a question. And so the person gets whatever's, you know, the Buddhist philosophy is whatever you need. Like I have a friend and I was sitting next to her and somebody said to her, what do you do? And she said, what do you need? I thought, that's really good. And she's pretty much that way, a good share of the time. Whatever you need, you get it from her. Pretty much. She can't, you know, she said, I need a man. She can't do that for you, but she'll try, but, you know. She probably would try that, if you wanted it. But actually, she probably wouldn't try to be a man. She'd probably get you a man. It's okay, I'll get you a man. Come here, there's one right over here. She actually does that kind of work, too. If you need it, that's what she'll give it.

[58:16]

But she doesn't have this philosophy like, you know, I'm going to get you a man unless you ask. So, I have some more stuff, but if you want more questions. Yes? Well, again, when you first approach the way, when you first seek the way, it probably is either an attachment or a seeking. So, the Zen master Dogen says, when you first seek the way, you move away from its neighborhood. As soon as you seek it, you move farther away. But, you know, that's the way most people start, is they leave where they are and go someplace else to practice, and they leave the way behind as they go to the Zen center.

[59:22]

Actually, the way was back at your house, in your backyard, and you didn't notice it. So you leave your practice, which is right there under your nose, and you walk over to the Zen center. And they say, okay, they don't say, they usually don't know the Zen stories. If it's a Zen center and you have like, you know, it's a big organization like this one, they don't say, go back home. You shouldn't be here. You should be back in your backyard. You over, you know, get out of here. But we let people come in and then And then we say, well now here, now that you're in the backyard of Zen Center, now here's your practice, right? And then you maybe don't think you have to go someplace else for your practice because you're at the Zen Center. But to get to Zen Center you kind of have to like make a mistake. Because your practice was where you were before you left. That's where practice is. That's where the way is. It's not over at the Zen Center. your practice is not back in the meditation hall.

[60:26]

When you're in the meditation hall, then your practice is there. But some people, even in the meditation hall, think that they should be in a different part of the meditation hall to practice. This is not the right seat. I think that's my seat over there. And, like, we had this... Native American agronomist teaching at Zen Center for a while, and his teacher, who was a Yurok shaman, I think was his teacher, people came to learn about plants from him. And the student would say, you know, teacher, teach me about plants. And the teacher would say, find me five native grasses, or find five native plants. And then if the person walked off to find plants, When they came back, he said, you can't study here. They should look down the ground to find the five native plants.

[61:32]

There are five native plants right there, if you're standing on the ground. Now, it's hard to find five native plants on the board here. But where he was standing, he always received students in a plant-covered area. So if he would say, find five native plants, the student would look down and say, well, I see one there. then he could study. But otherwise, you say, I'm wasting my time talking to you. Okay? So there is a problem there. So at some point, anyway, you have to stop seeking the way. Yeah. Yeah. real Buddhist contemplation, the Buddha's contemplation, the Buddha's contemplation has no seeking in it.

[62:33]

The Buddha is growing up out of compassion and no seeking in the contemplation. So, again, you're looking at something, but you're not seeking to get something. Like you look in a face, but you don't seek to get something. You just go, face. And you might say, what's that? What's that face? But you don't say, what's that face? And try to get something from the face. Or, you know, and then after you get something, then, you know, talk about what it is and stuff like that. Because getting something, you're already basically just saying it's an object. You didn't really ask. You said, What is it? You say, well, it's something out there on its own. So then you grasp it. So somehow we have to learn what we call the backward step, which is turn around and look inside when you look outside.

[63:37]

Which means, what is it? Who am I? When you look at other people, who am I? Which is like, what is this? Is this me or not me? Really open up. And again, everything that happens, boom, [...] is teaching you to practice Buddhism. Everything that's happening is teaching you Buddhadharma. Well, how? How is this the Buddhadharma? How is what's happening right now the Buddhadharma? How is this the Buddha's teaching to you? How is this the Buddha's truth? Do you doubt that teaching? Do you think that some things are Buddha Dharma and others aren't? If you do, then it's good to, I would say, good to bring up your doubts, your qualms about that teaching. Either put it as qualms about that teaching or adherence to the position that only some things are worthy of your study.

[64:47]

Only some things are worthy of your inquiry. Only some things are worthy of your contemplation. And the funny thing is that if someone would admit, well, I think that some things are worthy of contemplation and others aren't, oftentimes the thing that they aren't willing to contemplate are the things that are most important to them, like their own wife or husband or their own children, who are so important and they don't contemplate them. They just say, this is my daughter and that's it, rather than what is my daughter? Take the backward step and say, what is she really? Rather than acting upon your assumptions and your prejudices and your proclivities and your sentiments and your accustomed habitual deluded understanding of your daughter.

[65:49]

How about like what in the world is this? The person you care about most needs that most from you. They don't need one other person to think that they are what the other person thinks they are. They've got people like that all over the place. It'd be nice if somebody loved her enough to give her the very best, which is like wonder rather than you know, mental construction and grasping. And the same with the practice. Somebody should love the practice enough to wonder what it is, rather than most people who either aren't interested, who don't care at all, which is probably worse... Not caring at all is the worst. But the next step is you care, but you don't care enough to wonder. You just care enough to try to get it.

[66:53]

Well, that's better than not trying at all. Like, what is it, Suzuki Roshi has that example, you know, that people like. He said, if you're trying to take care of a cow, the worst thing is to ignore it. If you're trying to take care of a kid, the worst thing is to ignore it. If you're trying to take care of a student, the worst thing is to ignore it. If you're trying to take care of Buddha Dharma, the worst thing is to ignore it. Next best is to try to control it. So a lot of parents anyway, or spouses, whatever, they don't ignore their spouse, but they try to control them. And a lot of Zen students don't ignore Zen, but they try to control it or try to get it. But the best way is just put the cow in a big field and watch it. Big field means let it go all those places which you don't particularly understand why it's going there and you're kind of worried. And you can barely see it, but you can still sort of see it. And you're not in control of it. Like your practice.

[67:56]

Just put your practice in a big field and let it go. Watch it. But don't not watch it. Don't ignore it. Keep your eye on it. Just like you would if you had it under control, supposedly. But control is not really love. Love is like let go and watch, but But keep watching. Keep your eye on it. Yes. Yeah, love without preference, yeah. That big love, right? So you can, so if you have preferences, then like, you know, if the child or the spouse goes over there, you say, okay, I'll tend to you there. But if you go over there, I'm not going to pay attention. Well, that's limiting your love greatly. Because... Anyway, some of the people you love the most are rarely doing something which you think is worthwhile. They're rarely doing something that doesn't... Well, put it the other way.

[68:58]

They're often doing something that really makes you nervous. And kind of like... You're supposed to watch that? Well, yeah. You're supposed to hold their hands while they go into hell? Well, yeah. No, I'm going to stop them. I'm going to stop them from making that mistake. Well, you can't. You can't stop them. You cannot. You can't control anybody. But it's better to try to control, which is really bad. It really limits your love to try to control. But it's better to do that than not care at all. Attachment's slightly better than... Attachment and trying to control is better than not caring at all. So attachment's not all bad because it's kind of related to compassion. It's just a crippled form of compassion. Control is kind of caring. Better than not caring at all. The worst thing is not to care at all.

[69:59]

That's like really different from compassion. Sharon? Sharon? Yeah? Then you watch them trying to be separate and not be watched. And they'll probably, you know, they might do some things which, you know, are so horrible that you kind of would like not to watch. You're going to watch this? What? Yeah. Do you feel like you're invading? Well, if you feel like you're invading, maybe you are. Maybe there's another way to watch that's not invasive. Hmm? Right, without attachment. It's kind of like, I'm here, and I'm willing to watch, and...

[71:06]

And what I'm watching is that you don't, you know, you don't seem to want me to watch. You seem to be trying to get away from me. And you watch that. You watch them try to get away from you. The people you're closest to are the people who have the hardest time being around you. Nobody's harder to be with than the person you're closest to. So again, I often use the example of my daughter. In the last few years, she says, what do you want for your birthday? What do you want for Father's Day? And I say, a walk and a talk. But it has to be a walk and a talk. Because a walk won't work. I mean, a talk won't work. A walk by itself would be fine, too. but I say a walk and a talk, and she says, okay.

[72:10]

And then it's pretty hard to schedule this. She's like three behind now. So it has to be a walk and a talk because the walk, we walk, you know, we walk away from the house, away from the refrigerator, away from the telephone, away from the TV, which doesn't work, away from the bed, away from the car. And we walk. And, you know, and then various things are said for a certain period of time, which are not really talking. They're just... Huh? What? They're just chatting. They're just... They're kind of like... What they are is... I'm too nervous to be quiet, so let's make some noise. And people say various derivative comments come out of mouths, mostly daughters' mouths, because fathers are used to the uncomfortableness of silence with another person.

[73:17]

So he mostly says, mm-hmm, to all these derivative comments. And then after the derivative comments get worn out, we'll walk long enough for them to stop, then there's silence. And then there's like a few comments, a few complaints are made, like, this hill's too steep, or, you know, do we have to go this way? You know, this is too steep, this is too hard. And then she stops complaining, and then she passes me. And then I'm trying to keep up with her. And then I catch up with her, and then it's quiet, and she's not complaining, and then she starts talking. And that's, I give my present. my daughter just saying what she has to say, un-derivative, straight from the horse's mouth. And then, you know, that comes to an end and we go back down to the world of telephones and refrigerators and beds and the conversation of that type ends because it's, you know, too tempting to distract yourself

[74:31]

And we'll both get distracted. It's hard for me too. To really like be there with her that way. So you have to set up the situation. Because it's hard. It's hard to be together like that. So you have to like kind of like trap yourself with this person. In some place where the all the excuses are taken away. And now if you try to get away, it's just so clear you're just trying to get away. And let them try to get away, you know? Standing on top of the mountain to try to say, well, what should we talk about now? Oh, nice view, huh? Yeah. Steep all around. Mm-hmm. Or should we go down now? Could we stay here a little while? Because, like, there's no alternative. There's just you, me, and the sky. What's that? Yikes. What would you say?

[75:34]

How can you talk? What are you going to talk about? What would you have for lunch later? What's on TV tonight? You want to talk about past and future, right? Because in the present, there's nothing happening but reality. Or delusion. So you have to kind of set up situations like this. In Zen we call this entering the room. Entering the room. You go in the room. You go into a room. And in that room, you know, derivative comments are kind of like ritually excluded. And sometimes they have to drag the monks into those interviews.

[76:41]

And I myself, you know, came to Zen Center to enter the room and then sometimes the teacher, you know, invited me to enter the room and when I got in the room I would say, well, thanks for inviting me, I've got to go now. Or, you know, I don't want to keep you any longer. No, it's okay. You can stay. I'm happy. No, I have to go. I don't want to. You're busy. I have to go. Yes, Maria? That's the hardest one, because that's the closest one.

[77:52]

And that's why That's, you know, being with yourself. If you can be with yourself, it helps you be with others. And being with others is a warm-up to be with yourself. So that's why we need to, like, do some meditation where we're just trying to be with ourself and watch ourself try to get away from here. Anything but this, right? And we know how to think of something besides this, don't we? So we do. And then we're not here. And fine, hey, that was, what a relief. But if you can actually just be here, then you have a chance to say, well, God, finally I'm here and I'm not running away anymore. Then you go see if you can meet somebody else and not run away from that. And if you can, great. And if you can't, go back and try again by yourself. So people go back and forth in and out of the room to see if they can continue to not run away even when they're with the other who's not running away. And it's easy to be with somebody else who's running away. relatively easy.

[78:55]

She's not here, so I don't have to be here. Great. But if you're with somebody who's not running away, it's kind of, it's a little harder to run away. Kind of like, you feel seen for running away. What? They hit you, yeah. They used to hit you. Now they just watch and you hit yourself. This guy came to see me, and he had just been reading a Zen book. And the first story in the book has the expression, cut off the mine road. And he was talking to me about cutting off the mine road. And he was kind of interested in this, and he had various comments to make about cutting off the mine road, how wonderful that was. And then I think he said to me, well, what do you think about that? And so I just sat there and kind of thought about that. What? And you went screaming out of there.

[80:05]

He didn't exactly go screaming out of there. He just started laughing. And then he got up and he started bowing. And he started laughing more and more and more. And he said, I've got to cut out the mine road. But he got it. And it was so wonderful. It was so funny. It was so funny. And it got funnier and funnier. If you think about it, it's really funny what he did. And he just said, I'm going to go out and cut off the mine road. He went outside. He kept laughing outside. So... I brought this text here to share with you some of this traditional discussion. And it is kind of thick, but I'll maybe give it to you in little pieces and see how it goes down.

[81:08]

This is a text called the Samdhi Nirmocana Sutra, which means the scripture for untying the knots of the ultimate meaning, or disclosing kind of the secret intent of the scriptures. And one section in this scripture is about ultimate truth. Okay, you ready for a little bit of the sutra? So the form of the sutra is, each chapter is a bodhisattva, an enlightening being, a great being, asking the Buddha questions. And generally speaking, these bodhisattvas have been listening to the Buddha already for a long time. And given what they've heard, now they come and ask a question.

[82:14]

And the bodhisattvas... don't necessarily, they often understand the answer, but they're asking the question for our benefit. So this bodhisattva, her name is Purified Intelligence. So of course, Purified Intelligence would mean purified of duality. We all have intelligence. All the people in this workshop, anyway, have intelligence. but part of our intelligence is often involved in dualism. This person, I think, intelligence has been purified of dualism. And so he said to the Buddha, World Honored One, it is most wonderful how well you have explained this. The character of ultimate truth of which you speak is very subtle and profound.

[83:18]

transcending the aspects of sameness and difference of all things. Difficult to comprehend. So he's saying that the Buddha taught about ultimate truth and has said, or this Bodhisattva understands that the Buddha has implied, that ultimate truth transcends sameness and difference. that in ultimate truth there really isn't sameness or difference. It doesn't really hang together in ultimate truth. And in particular, even ultimate truth is not the same or different from superficial truth. And superficial truth is dualities. So ultimate truth, which transcends sameness or difference, is in particular not the same.

[84:26]

It also transcends sameness or difference from conventional truth. So these truths, according to this scripture, these truths, from the point of view of ultimate truth, are not completely the same and not completely different. They're a little bit different, though. But they can't be... So if they're a little bit different, they can't be the same. But they also can't be completely different. So they can't be the same, really, and they can't really be totally different. How you doing?

[85:32]

How you doing, Ann? You okay? Is it getting too hot for this? You okay? Then the bodhisattva says that she once saw a group of bodhisattvas discussing whether or not the ultimate was the same as the conventional or different. And there were two groups of bodhisattvas apparently, not three. One group said that the ultimate truth and the conventional truth were the same. Actually, what it says in this translation is ultimate truth and practices are the same. And this translation, it says ultimate truth and compounded. Compounded, the compounded. So the ultimate truth isn't compounded. The ultimate truth is that any compounded thing

[86:42]

Anything that's composed lacks inherent existence. That's the ultimate truth. And among compounded things are all phenomena, but also practices are compounded things. They're compounded of practitioner, that which is practiced. That's a compound. It's a composition. It's a constructed thing. And the ultimate truth is that that constructed thing lacks any inherent existence, that you never really can find the practitioner or what is practiced. So is that ultimate truth the same or different from the practices? Is ultimate truth the same or different from any phenomena? And is the ultimate truth the same, the ultimate truth of any phenomena, Is the emptiness of any phenomena the same or different from the superficial quality of the phenomena?

[87:45]

And from the point of view of conventional truth, sometimes people would say it's the same. They might say it's the same, or they might say it's different, right? But it's not the same. not completely the same, and it's not totally different. It transcends that way of seeing things. But anyway, one group of these bodhisattvas said that they were the same. Another group said that they were different. And then the bodhisattva who saw this said, that didn't seem right to me. It seemed like they misunderstand and that they were off the track here. And the Buddha said, that's right. They, and he says some other stuff, he says various things, but he said, they are not practicing rightly. And I'd like to say right there that he says they're not practicing rightly.

[88:49]

In other words, to understand that what your practice is, is the same as ultimate truth, is not practicing rightly. So your understanding here of the relationship between superficial reality and deep reality, or your understanding of the relationship between ultimate truth, truly true, and what you're doing, your understanding of that has a lot to do with whether you're practicing properly. Whatever your practice is, and particularly if it's a contemplative practice, in the Buddha way, how you understand the relationship between what you're doing and real truth has something to do with whether you're practicing right or not. And these bodhisattvas, now these are bodhisattvas, right? They said they were bodhisattvas. Like bodhisattvas are like, you know, amazing creatures.

[89:55]

The bodhisattvas are like people who actually have great compassion. These are not people, these aren't like, these aren't bodhisattva wannabes, they said in the scriptures. These are bodhisattvas. In other words, they have great compassion and they actually have this, they actually have a living aspiration to be Buddha. And they actually do devote their lives to the welfare of all beings. And even these bodhisattvas, if they think that the practices they're doing are the same as ultimate truth, they don't practice right. And if they think that what they're doing is different from ultimate truth, they also don't practice right. But apparently, I don't know if it's really true, but apparently... They were being told that a certain great bodhisattva saw these other groups of bodhisattvas who, even though they were bodhisattvas, were not practicing right. So that says a number of things. And it says that bodhisattvas can get off track. Even though they're great beings, they can be off.

[90:56]

And particularly off about this subtle thing between the relationship between the two truths. The truth of where there's practice and not practice. where you do it and don't do it, that world of practice, where you seem to be doing practices, where there's compounded phenomena, and the ultimate truth, where there isn't practice, and there aren't Buddhas, and there aren't sentient beings. How did they get to be Bodhisattvas if they were not practicing correctly? Well, they were practicing correctly until they got to this point, probably. So bodhisattvas are not completely enlightened from the start. I mean, even after they become bodhisattvas, which means that they have tremendous love, which is the foundation. They have great love and devotion to all beings, but they are not yet completely understanding ultimate truth. Now, when the issue of ultimate truth comes up, they show that they didn't understand.

[91:59]

This is groups of bodhisattvas. There could have been a third group which thought, well, they're the same and different and so on, but that's contradictory. But there could be a group of bodhisattvas like that, but they didn't have that group here. Just the two that had these two extreme views. Now this bodhisattva who's asking the questions, however, does not have this problem. He thought that those guys were off track. Those good men and good women, bodhisattvas, were off track. And the Buddha says, uh-huh. But I... He says these nasty things about him, sort of. But anyway...

[92:38]

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